73. The Evolution of Women's Fiction with Literary Agent Erin Niumata

Join me for an illuminating conversation with literary agent and doctoral researcher Erin Niumata about the past, present, and future of women's fiction as a genre. 

With nearly 20 years at Folio Literary Management and ongoing PhD research into women's publishing history, Erin shares her unique perspective on how the genre has evolved over time to today's market challenges. She discusses the fluid nature of women's fiction, the rise of cross-genre storytelling, and how her academic research has influenced her approach to working with authors. 

Erin also offers practical advice for writers on positioning their work, the importance of perseverance, and why authors should write for themselves first. Tune in to hear more!

Find more on Erin Niumata: Website | Substack

Find more on Nicole Meier: Website | Substack

Transcript

THE WHOLE WRITER 3p 73 - With Literary Agent Erin Niumata

[00:00:00] Erin Niumata: Don't give up. Perseverance is the key. If you wanna write, write for yourself. Don't try to write for an audience. Just tell the story that you want to read yourself. But you can't give up. So if you wanna write and you want to tell your stories, I think that you should write them and get them published.

[00:00:20] Erin Niumata: However, you can

[00:00:29] Nicole Meier: welcome to the whole writer a place where we talk about what it means to show up as a writer, not just a better writer or a more productive writer, or a published writer, but a whole one. Someone who's grounded in their voice, in their community, in their creative path, even when the world tells them to hustle, compare, or conform.

[00:00:49] Nicole Meier: I'm Nicole Meier, a multi published author and book coach who believes that nurturing the person behind the page is just as important as refining the words on it. Each week we'll explore the terrain of riding life with honesty, warmth, and practical wisdom, creating space for you to write from a place of wholeness rather than depletion.

[00:01:10] Nicole Meier: Whether you're drafting your first manuscript or publishing your fifth book, you'll find conversation and companionship for the journey here. So settle in, bring your questions and your curiosity, and let's discover what it means to write and live with authenticity and purpose. Welcome listeners. I'm so happy to have you here for what I know will be a rich conversation.

[00:01:35] Nicole Meier: Joining me is Erin Niumata. Welcome Erin. Thanks. Thanks for having me here. Good to be here. It's so great for me to be able to connect with you, and I have so many questions in mind because I know you have a new sort of focus in addition to all the great things you do. But before we jump into questions, I wanna share with our listeners a little bit about you.

[00:01:55] Nicole Meier: So Erin Yata has been in publishing for over several decades. She started as an editorial assistant at Simon and Schuster in the Touchstone fireside division for several years. Then moved over to Harper Collins as an editor, and then she went on to Avalon books as the editorial director. She has been with Folio Literary Management for almost 20 years.

[00:02:17] Nicole Meier: She represents commercial nonfiction from prescriptive and practical to narrative and memoir. As well as a select list of fiction, including mysteries, psychological thrillers, and commercial women's fiction. She's particularly looking for expert, celebrity and company clients with strong national platforms as well as debut fiction.

[00:02:38] Nicole Meier: Erin is recognized for partnering with her clients to support their long-term professional and personal goals and to incorporate their books into an overall brand strategy. She has high expectations of herself and her clients, and thoughtfully manages her client's careers. She is completing her doctoral research in the history of women in publishing and the evolution of women's writing.

[00:03:01] Nicole Meier: She also holds her master's degree in creative writing from Middlesex University in London. So much goodness there. Welcome, Erin, and oh my gosh, I'm so thrilled to get into it with you today. Great. Let's get into it. I love it. So listeners, for those of you that don't know, I mean many of you within the query stage know of Erin, especially if you're writing upmarket, women's fiction and all those amazing genres that she represents.

[00:03:27] Nicole Meier: But what you may not know is that. She is completing her doctoral research, and that's what really caught my eye. Erin and I connected on Substack, which many of you know is my new favorite home, and I was so fascinated, Erin, to learn about your research into women's fiction as a genre, how you see things changing.

[00:03:45] Nicole Meier: You have seen so many changes over the years. I know. So I guess my first question to you is, as someone researching women's fiction as a genre. How do you see the current market responding to books that might be traditionally categorized in this way? And are publishers and readers moving toward or away from this sort of gendered classification?

[00:04:05] Erin Niumata: That's a good question. Yeah. I've been at this since the nineties before women's fiction was even a genre, and I've seen it change. It all started with Bridget Jones and Shopaholic and things like that, and then it evolved more into women's fiction. I remember the first time somebody said women's fiction, and this was 20 something years ago, and I was like, women's fiction, what exactly is that?

[00:04:29] Erin Niumata: I am still to this day trying to figure out what exactly women's fiction is because nobody can seem to agree on its categorization. So that's one of the things that I talk about in my research, how nobody can agree on what it is, which is why it's such a hot topic and it's fluid. Some people think it's one thing and other people think it's another thing, and the only guarantee is that at some point in the novel, a woman will appear.

[00:04:59] Erin Niumata: So, um, one of the things that I've learned, and I've talked to quite a few editors and agents about this, and we talk about it at the Folio Fiction meeting quite often. That it's not so much what the main umbrella term is. It is the sub genres. There are a lot of cross genres like romantic and romantic thrillers and romantic suspense and you know, there's horror.

[00:05:24] Erin Niumata: It's a mix of anything that might have romance or women at the helm mixed with something else. Seems to be what everybody's going for right now. Positioning a book as an agent. One of the things I talk about with my clients is. Where are we gonna put this on a bookshelf? Is it gonna sit early on one shelf or is it gonna be able to fit on two?

[00:05:45] Erin Niumata: I have a great book that is coming out with Simon Schuster in March called The Plans I Have for You and Is Fabulous Horror with a wonderful queer romance at it. Lots of murder, some speculative elements. It's absolutely terrific. It took forever for us to figure out how are we going to position this?

[00:06:06] Erin Niumata: For agents. So we talked about all the different sub genres, like I just said. So it's considered women's fiction technically, but that's not what I went out with it as, and that's not what is being pitched as, but it still is under that umbrella. I have a graphic on my substack that I created for my dissertation that has the umbrella with all the subsets in it.

[00:06:33] Erin Niumata: So if you mix any of those subsets together and have a female protagonist, you've got women's fiction. Some editors like to hear the words, women's fiction. Some don't. So you just have to know which ones like it and use it in the pitch. And the ones you're sending the exact same project to you keep it out to the ones who don't want it.

[00:06:54] Erin Niumata: I don't think that it's going to go away because too many people like it, women in particular, but then there are people who don't like it because it is too gender specific. However, there is a new imprint that is coming out that is all about men. Interesting. It is. It's for men's stories. I forget the title of it, but it's British and they wanna tell men's stories only because they feel that sensitive men are getting lost in the fray of all of the new publishing that's very gender specific.

[00:07:25] Erin Niumata: So I don't think that women's fiction is all together. That frightening. 

[00:07:30] Nicole Meier: Okay. There's so much to unpack there. I can resonate with this. So I have four books out and they're all fall under the branch of women's fiction. I've moved to calling them upmarket just because I've sort of myself moved away from that.

[00:07:42] Nicole Meier: But I totally understand how you can have historical, romance, horror, suspense, all of these different sort of sub genres under women's fiction. You've seen a demand for it. You've seen people still write for it. So I kind of have a question about was the chicken or the egg, you know, when you went into your research and your studies about women's fiction and women in publishing, did the demand or lack of demand drive your yearning to go study this?

[00:08:11] Nicole Meier: Or was it the other way around? 

[00:08:13] Erin Niumata: I wanted to study the evolution of women in publishing and female protagonists for a long time. It started when I was doing my master's, which I got in 2016. As I was graduating, they were like, you should get a PhD. I was like, I think I might. And this is why I landed on it.

[00:08:34] Erin Niumata: When I started, women's fiction was booming. It was everywhere. I wrote a piece for Writer's Magazine here in England about women's fiction and why it was such a big deal and all the rest of that, and that came out in like 2012. It was booming. Since I started my research, it's on the downward trend, which I found really interesting.

[00:08:56] Erin Niumata: And when I was talking to industry professionals, 'cause I spoke to both British and American agents and editors at various different stages, and I spoke to a few publishers who all represent or published women's fiction and it was all over the spectrum. What everybody. Thought and the way forward with women's fiction, those for it and those against it.

[00:09:19] Erin Niumata: And the one thing that I did learn, like I said earlier, that women's fiction, the name is not going anywhere as far as I can see. I like it. It's nice for women to have a room of their own. Yeah. As Virginia Wool had said. So, uh, why would we want to eliminate that? We are welcome to anyone who identifies as a woman and even a few men if they're nice.

[00:09:45] Erin Niumata: So that was not, I don't think that it's trying to do anything separate, trying to leave anyone out. It's just another label. When you walk into a bookstore, you see horror, you see thriller, you see women's fiction. If you are a woman or if you're not a woman, you just like those kinds of stories about coming of age stories for women or women's journeys that deal with emotional depth and transformations or downfalls.

[00:10:21] Erin Niumata: You know, it can be whatever if they are interested in learning about real women with real problems. Trying to work their way through this world. When is fiction's place to be? 

[00:10:32] Nicole Meier: Yes, I totally agree with that. Okay, so now that we've talked about the why behind your research and where you're going with this, I have so many questions about, in your focus on history of women publishing, what historical patterns or obstacles have you uncovered that might help explain the challenges women writers still face today?

[00:10:55] Erin Niumata: Well, women got into publishing kind of by accident, thanks to World War II when men left and women had to come in, step up, and that's across the board with all kinds of careers and workplace and so on and so forth. And publishing was no different. Women moved from the secretarial pool into editorial roles and so on, and then when the men came back, there were women who were editors, but they were.

[00:11:22] Erin Niumata: Stuck with cookbooks and home economics and things like that. It was really in the mid 20th century that feminism changed everything with all the movements and so on and so forth, that women started taking more positions of power and more women started to read. And the more women that started to read, the more there was for a need for books that would gear towards women.

[00:11:48] Erin Niumata: One of the first books that really broke through was Valley of the Dolls by Jacqueline Suzanne. Ah, yes. And I read that a million years ago when I was a teenager 'cause it was taboo and it was on my parents' shelf and I was gonna read it Come Hell or High Water and it was saucy and uh, crazy. And I was like, I can see why this is such a big deal.

[00:12:08] Erin Niumata: She was one of the first brand names for an author and she really turned it on its head. Women make up 49% of the population. They're 80% of the buyers looks bought, 80% are bought by women. So it makes sense so that they would want to cater towards that market. So more women were hired and women have been running publishing for years.

[00:12:35] Erin Niumata: I'm not saying that only women run publishing, but women are, have been in positions of power and decision makers in publishing for decades. Since I started, I worked for both men and women and it seemed very equal and it still is, but women's stories, women writers, there are so many that women are competing with each other to get a spot, which is okay.

[00:13:00] Erin Niumata: It's good to have healthy competition. Everybody should take a shot. Whether you go with a traditional publisher or a hybrid or you self-publish. If you wanna write and you wanna tell your stories, I think that you should write them and get them published, however you can. 

[00:13:17] Nicole Meier: Yeah, I am so happy to hear. I mean, listeners, I'm nodding along because you explaining that it has been equal within the publishing industry and that you have had both genders, you know, as bosses, as contemporaries.

[00:13:31] Nicole Meier: Within the industry. That makes me happy because there is a perception that it's run by all middle-aged white men, and they're making the decisions on what gets attention and what doesn't. And I love knowing that women have been really a staple in the publishing industry. 

[00:13:47] Erin Niumata: They have been. I mean, there are more white men at the helm at the moment, but everything ebbs and flows.

[00:13:55] Erin Niumata: I don't think that it's taking a hit for. The books that I publish, and I represent both men and women, and I do a lot of women's fiction. I do a lot of nonfiction. I do more nonfiction than I do fiction, but it hasn't ever been a problem for me in particular, and I hope it remains that way, and I've been around for a long time.

[00:14:18] Nicole Meier: Yeah, I love knowing that. That's great. Okay. Let's move on to my next question if you don't mind. So, you've been working on your dissertation for, is it four years now? Is that correct? Oh, going on five? Yeah. Okay, going on five. So I wanna know, what changes have you witnessed in the publishing industry? You know, their approach to women writers during that time.

[00:14:38] Nicole Meier: Has any shift surprised you? Anything you uncovered you didn't realize you might be uncovering? Well, the biggest 

[00:14:45] Erin Niumata: shift was when I started this, that women's fiction was a big deal, and in the past four and a half years it has come under fire and I had to change my direction quite a bit to more of a defense of it and a look towards why people don't like it and so on and so forth.

[00:15:05] Erin Niumata: That's been the biggest change of all. I started this right after the pandemic, so the pandemic. Changed everything really. I used to fly to New York all the time. I live in London. I used to fly to New York and so on and so forth. Now with Zoom, I don't have to do that. It keeps good and bad, but it's also changed the way that people work, the way that people read, the way that people buy books.

[00:15:31] Erin Niumata: It's all changed quite a bit, which factored into what I was doing. I think it's really helped women's fiction because women are buying more books than ever. It's so easy. It's with a click of a finger. You can have a book. It's terrific. Yes. You know there's Net Galley where you can get books for free as long as you give a good review and you're in good standing with net galley.

[00:15:54] Erin Niumata: The advanced copies. Yes. Yes. You know the advanced copies, good Reads, does giveaways all the time. Books are more available to more people now than they ever have been. Yeah. That's lovely. 

[00:16:08] Nicole Meier: Okay. You mentioned London. You get to see, uh, as they say on the other side of the pond, what the demand is, what people are reading, what people are talking about.

[00:16:17] Nicole Meier: Is it sort of the same feel towards women's fiction or women's books that we say in the states are happening right now, or is it completely different? I'm really curious about that. It's different yet the same. 

[00:16:28] Erin Niumata: Over here, women's fiction is a big deal. Some books are still categorized as Chiclet, which America is, no.

[00:16:35] Erin Niumata: Yeah. The British agents and editors really don't use the word chiclet, but the market itself uses the word chit a lot when they're talking about cute little romance rom-coms and so on and so forth. Whereas in America, you just don't do that, and it seems a little more laid back and relaxed and accepting over here with.

[00:16:56] Erin Niumata: All subjects about women's fiction. Whereas in America, I wouldn't say it's rigid, it's just different. They like things a certain way and I'm all for whatever you want. Like you want something, I will give it to you. I don't care what it's called. So they're different but the same. 

[00:17:16] Nicole Meier: Okay. That's so fascinating to me because I know, like you said, certain terms and ideas have been challenged over here in the past handful of years.

[00:17:24] Nicole Meier: I got to listen to you speak at the Women's Fiction Writers Association conference in Chicago, and honestly since then, I feel like this has still been a very sort of big conversation about the genre. So yeah, it's interesting to know how other countries are looking at it. 

[00:17:40] Erin Niumata: Well, I mean, women's fiction is not a thing in a lot of countries because women aren't allowed to read or they don't have access to books and libraries, which is why I zeroed in my research just to the English speaking American and British countries where women's fiction is.

[00:17:58] Erin Niumata: Something. It's a genre. It's spoken about. It's accepted. Even if people don't like it, they will acknowledge that it exists. And I think that we're very lucky that we can even have this debate. Yeah. That we can argue about it. And I understand where people who say we shouldn't have something called women's fiction, but if we start picking on these little things.

[00:18:20] Erin Niumata: Then we have to look at all of these sub genres. Women's fiction isn't here to lock anybody else. Like if you're a woman, you can't read this. That's not it. We have other specialized things and that's great 'cause you walk in and you know what you want, you can see it and you go right to it. And that is terrific.

[00:18:38] Erin Niumata: It's inclusive of the bookstore to include all of those people. So if they have something that says women's fiction, then they should be able to walk right over to it like any other genre. 

[00:18:48] Nicole Meier: That's what I love about bookstores is I always tell people you can have the most niche interest and not feel like you can find your people or your interest or your themes, so to speak anywhere else, but in a bookstore, there's a shelf for you.

[00:19:03] Nicole Meier: You're right, Erin. You know, it is a moment of reflection of we are very fortunate that we can even have this debate that we even have options like this, because not everybody has that privilege. 

[00:19:15] Erin Niumata: No, they don't. And. I think everybody should be able to go in, as you said, and find what they want to read. And I say this to people, they're like, this is too weird.

[00:19:25] Erin Niumata: People won't like it. I'm like, if you like something and you are really into it, your people are out there. Yes. They're like, you can find them. If you like something, somebody else is gonna like them. It's just a matter of finding your people and one of the best places to find your people is at the bookstore or at the library in a book.

[00:19:44] Erin Niumata: Or in a chat room. That's a whole different demographic. 

[00:19:48] Nicole Meier: Well, listeners, especially writers out there, listen up because I so wanna champion that thought, Aaron, that if you find it interesting, chances are someone else will find it interesting too. Yes. 

[00:19:59] Erin Niumata: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:20:00] Nicole Meier: Okay, so you've said a little bit about how.

[00:20:05] Nicole Meier: The things in the industry, especially towards different genre labels like women's fiction and just women in publishing in general have shifted a bit since you started your research. But I do wanna just move into that a little more and ask you, has any of your academic research on women in publishing especially shifted how you work as an agent, how you work with authors, how you think about the future of the industry, even.

[00:20:32] Erin Niumata: It actually has. I decided to get a master's degree in creative writing for several reasons. I wanted it and I could do it, so I did it. But I wanted to really focus on the craft of writing, not just for me, but to help my clients develop their stories and really hone their writing. So I'm based as an editor.

[00:20:55] Erin Niumata: That's where I started. Editing books for years and then becoming an agent, and I still edit books, but I'm very hands-on with the majority of my clients, especially my fiction clients on story development. Some need more handholding than others, but it makes a big difference. I've taken on people like that book that I was telling you about, the plans I have for you.

[00:21:19] Erin Niumata: There was something about her that I absolutely loved and she had been passed over by quite a few people, and when we sat down and we spoke and we brainstormed, we rewrote that book several times. Until we were happy with it. And then of course, the editor edited it even further to really fine tune it, and it was terrific.

[00:21:36] Erin Niumata: But she needed that editorial piece. And because of my background as an editor and then the added piece of the fact that I have a master's in creative writing, I was really able to help her get that over the finish line to get a sale. And I like that for my clients. I like to help them with that story development.

[00:21:59] Erin Niumata: As far as publishing with my clients when it comes to women's fiction, this is why I shifted to sub genres rather than saying women's fiction because I don't want it to be excluded immediately because somebody looks at it and has the wrong idea of what women's fiction means. So I sub genre it. Some people, I just say women's fiction and they get it.

[00:22:22] Erin Niumata: That's been the major shift with my job as far as my research is concerned. 

[00:22:28] Nicole Meier: Okay. And just to clarify, for people new to genres and sub genres who are listening, would it be correct in saying you could pitch something as women's fiction with elements of suspense, or do you go further than that? 

[00:22:39] Erin Niumata: It depends.

[00:22:41] Erin Niumata: I like to do comparative titles. I just did a whole series on queries and I'm like, know how to position your book on a shelf? Know how to sell it. Say it's a mix of this book and that book with elements of this book so that when an editor or an agent is reading this, they can get a really good idea of the voice, the story, where it's gonna sit, the audience, how these books did, and if it's of something of interest to the agent or editor.

[00:23:09] Erin Niumata: I get a lot of things that I think sound absolutely wonderful, but they didn't do their homework and I don't represent the genre, so I have to pass on it, which is a pity. But if somebody sends me something and the query letter is so tight with a great synopsis and they have properly positioned this book, I'm like, this person knows what they're doing.

[00:23:27] Erin Niumata: They know how to position a book. They know how to write. I like the story, and then hopefully the chapters will work out. That's gold. So if you're gonna be a writer, know how to position your book. 

[00:23:38] Nicole Meier: Yes. So let's just see if you wanna touch on anything else about how your research on women and publishing has shifted.

[00:23:45] Nicole Meier: Any approach that you're taking moving forward, or any sort of thing you see coming down the road. 

[00:23:51] Erin Niumata: I don't see anything coming down the road. I think that. Everything ebbs and flows. There are trends. There are things that come and go. You know, I never thought I'd see vampires rise to the top. They have romantic.

[00:24:04] Erin Niumata: Is riding a huge wave right now? Will it crash and burn? I have no idea. But I said this earlier on, Substack, don't write to a trend. If you are writing to a trend, you're behind the curve. You can write for a genre, absolutely, but you wanna be unique. I don't want more of the same. I'm not gonna start saying, I suddenly want this because it's hot.

[00:24:29] Erin Niumata: If I suddenly want something, 'cause it's hot, I'm, you know, 10 minutes behind every other agent. So when I do open up for submissions, which I will be doing in late July, I say what I'm looking for, but I'm looking for new things in these particular genres and I'm picking particular genres because I am interested in something.

[00:24:51] Erin Niumata: Say, I don't even know what I'm gonna open up for. I have to look at everything that's coming up, but I usually always open up for romcoms 'cause I have something and I love speculative, but I'm not looking for your. Everyday rom-com. I want something new. Everybody's looking to try and hit that new trend, so I am looking for something new.

[00:25:09] Erin Niumata: It's like mining and finding gold. 

[00:25:11] Nicole Meier: Yeah, which is so fascinating and so fun. I would love to just be a fly on the wall and see all the different kinds of manuscripts. They come across your desk. Oh, believe me, you do not 

[00:25:20] Erin Niumata: wanna do that. I love to say the agents of the first defense in publishing, we have to read absolutely everything.

[00:25:28] Erin Niumata: Terrible and good to present the best of the lot. I bet. 

[00:25:32] Nicole Meier: Well, and just to stay on that thread for one more minute, you know, I work with writers too, and what I'm seeing on I'm Gen X, what I'm seeing in women's fiction especially are the middle-aged stories. You know, the midlife reinvention, and I see a demand for.

[00:25:46] Nicole Meier: More stories like that. Are you seeing the same? I'm getting 

[00:25:49] Erin Niumata: a lot of submissions like that, and I'm all for it. Obviously I'm Gen X, so I wanna read about people like me and people my age, but then I wanna read about everything else too. But there seems to be a trend right now for middle age coming of age changing, but.

[00:26:10] Erin Niumata: I was just on the Simon Schuster Town Hall a little while ago, and they're like, no more menopause stories, please. So, okay, good. 

[00:26:15] Nicole Meier: That's good to know. Yeah, so no menopause stories for me at the moment. That's saturated. Yeah, the menopause stuff is definitely saturated, A little overdone. So yeah, 

[00:26:24] Erin Niumata: just some good, fun stuff I'd like.

[00:26:27] Nicole Meier: I love it. Well, now that we've sort of talked about how your research and your findings have influenced what you're seeing or what maybe what you're doing out there, but also you staying true to what. Stories really sing and what you know might need work. I love how you mentioned that people need to prove that they know what they're doing in order to stand out.

[00:26:46] Nicole Meier: So I know that there are people listening very eager to say, well, when is she opening for queries? Where can I find her? How do I follow her substack? How do I see more of her research findings when you do publish? So can you share a bit of all of that where people can find all your good things? 

[00:27:04] Erin Niumata: I am on Substack.

[00:27:06] Erin Niumata: Everything is Aaron nta everything. I'm on Blue Sky and Instagram agent Aaron nta. You can come and follow me. I just started Substack and I'm talking a lot about queries and about my own personal journey and what books mean to me, and so there's a mixed bag of things there. I will be opening up in a few weeks.

[00:27:26] Erin Niumata: I have some loose ends that I need to tie up, and then I will take an assessment of everything and then I open up for specific genres. At certain times throughout the year, I do that because I get so many submissions. When I do open up, I have to close because I have to get through them all. I can't just have a constant stream coming in.

[00:27:43] Erin Niumata: It takes me a really long time to go through them because I go through them one at a time, and I've got plans for my dissertation. I will be defending it and everything this fall, so there won't be anything really available until after it's done. But I'm talking about it on my substack about what I've learned and things that I've done.

[00:28:06] Erin Niumata: I'm putting it out slowly but surely. Once it's all said and done, I have plans, which I'll tell you about the ones I'm ready. 

[00:28:12] Nicole Meier: Okay, good. We might have to have you back on to share all of that. Sounds good. Okay. I'll make sure I drop all of the links in the show notes, but I would love for you to leave our listeners who are all either emerging authors or authors trying to grow their platforms or their careers.

[00:28:28] Nicole Meier: Could you maybe leave them with one bit of insight or advice that you could share? Yeah, but don't give up. 

[00:28:35] Erin Niumata: Perseverance is the key. If you wanna write. Write for yourself. Don't try to write for an audience when you're writing something. Just tell the story that you want to read yourself. Then you can go to writers groups, or you can take a writing course.

[00:28:50] Erin Niumata: You can get beta readers and you can hone it, but write for yourself first, and then you can fix it up to go on for publication and you're gonna get rejected. Everybody gets rejected. I get rejected daily as an agent, which is fine with me. It rolls right off and I move on to the next thing. But you can't give up.

[00:29:09] Erin Niumata: Just because somebody said no, doesn't mean that everyone's gonna say no. It only takes one person to say yes. So if you publish traditionally, if you publish with or without an agent, if you self-publish, whatever you do, just keep going and do what is right for you. There's no perfect path. 

[00:29:26] Nicole Meier: Beautiful.

[00:29:26] Nicole Meier: Thank you so much for sharing all of your insight and wisdom. We will make sure to follow you along on Substack and all the other good places. Thank you, Erin, for joining us. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Thank you, listeners. This has been the whole writer.

[00:29:46] Nicole Meier: If you want to check out my coaching programs for fiction writers, visit nicolemeier.com. That's M-E-I-E-R. And if you like this episode, I'd love you to take a minute to leave a rating and review for this podcast. This will help more writers like you to discover the show. And to get going on their writing journey.

[00:30:06] Nicole Meier: Thanks so much for listening. Until next time, happy writing everyone.