87. Unlocking the Secrets of Story Movement with Kathryn Craft

Join me for a conversation with author and writing mentor Kathryn Craft as she reveals insights from her new craft book for writers.

In this episode, Kathryn Craft shares transformative techniques for novel writers and fiction writers ready to elevate their storytelling. Discover how to master the invisible spaces between words where author meets reader, and learn why revising your novel requires bringing your whole self to the page.

Whether you're an aspiring novelist struggling with story movement, a fiction writer seeking fresh perspective on craft, or looking for expert guidance on how to revise a book, this interview delivers practical wisdom from Kathryn's decades as a developmental editor and writing mentor.

Perfect for novel writers, fiction authors, and anyone passionate about the craft of writing. If you're ready to transform your novel revision process and discover what makes stories truly move readers, this conversation with Kathryn Craft is essential listening.

🎙️Find more on Kathryn Craft here.

🎙️Find more on Nicole Meier here.

Transcript

THE WHOLE WRITER EP 87 - With Author Kathryn Craft

[00:00:00] Kathryn Craft: A novel isn't a bunch of black marks that creates words. It's the intention between the words. It's that space after the period where that last concept resonates. And you think, huh? And it raises an expectation. And those expectations need to be managed by the writer so that the correct questions are raised and you're not sending 'em down a blind alley.

[00:00:30] Kathryn Craft: And that's where. The author meets the reader in the spaces of a novel.

[00:00:44] Nicole Meier: Welcome to the whole writer, a place where we talk about what it means to show up as a writer, not just a better writer or a more productive writer, or a published writer, but a whole one. Someone who's grounded in their voice, in their community, in their creative path, even when the world tells them to hustle, compare, or conform.

[00:01:05] Nicole Meier: I'm Nicole Meier, a multi published author and book coach who believes that nurturing the person behind the page is just as important as refining the words on it. Each week we'll explore the terrain of riding life with honesty, warmth, and practical wisdom, creating space for you to write from a place of wholeness rather than depletion.

[00:01:25] Nicole Meier: Whether you're drafting your first manuscript or publishing your fifth book, you'll find conversation and companionship for the journey here. So settle in, bring your questions and your curiosity, and let's discover what it means to write and live with authenticity and purpose. Welcome on in listeners today.

[00:01:47] Nicole Meier: You're in for a special treat because I am with friend and author Katherine Kraft. She has a new craft book coming out, and before we jump into all things novel writing, let me first introduce her properly by sharing her bio. So Katherine Kraft is the award-winning author of two novels from Source Books, the Art of Falling and the Far End of Happy, her two decade tenures as dancer, choreographer, dance critic for the Morning call newspaper in Allentown, Pennsylvania, and freelance developmental editor have merged to inform the perspective that inspired her new release for writers crafting story movement techniques to engage readers and drive your novel forward.

[00:02:29] Nicole Meier: Building on her bachelor's and Master's degree in education. It has been her great joy to share the craft of writing by mentoring novelists most recently through her, your novel year program, and by speaking at dozens of venues where people thirst to write from writing groups, conferences, and libraries to inpatient rehabs and grief support groups.

[00:02:50] Nicole Meier: She lives with her husband in Doylestown, Pennsylvania. Welcome, welcome, Catherine. Hi, Nicole. It's great to see you again. It's so good to see you. And for people that aren't familiar with our friendship, the last time we got to gather in person was a very big conference, I think in 2023 in Chicago and. I didn't know, maybe I knew a little bit about this craft book that you were working on, but I didn't know all of the things of what you're working on.

[00:03:16] Nicole Meier: So this is very exciting to me because I'm coming in at the end result 

[00:03:20] Kathryn Craft: are very close to the end. 

[00:03:22] Nicole Meier: That's right. That's right. Well, so by the time this podcast airs, your book will have launched and we're gonna get into all of that. But I thought it'd be nice to start by letting listeners know a little bit more about you.

[00:03:33] Nicole Meier: So. I know you've worn several hats in the writing world. You've been a novelist, a writing mentor, and now you're the author of this craft book. So I would love it if you could share a little bit about your journey, what insights from all those experiences you pulled for this new resource that you're bringing out.

[00:03:51] Kathryn Craft: Okay. Well, that's where I love the title of your podcast, the whole writer, because I think the most important thing. That an aspiring novelist or any novelist needs to remember is they have to bring their whole self to the page. And if you're holding something back, if you haven't faced the problems in your life, you are not going to connect with people.

[00:04:17] Kathryn Craft: As a matter of fact, Danny Shapiro, are you familiar with her? Yes, of course. Yeah. I saw on her Facebook page one day, she said, I think that. Writing a novel is so much more vulnerable than writing a memoir because with a memoir, you can choose what to show and what to hold back in fiction. It's nothing if it isn't all of you.

[00:04:46] Kathryn Craft: I'm paraphrasing, but I love that concept and I really found that this process of writing this book couldn't have happened. And didn't want to happen and didn't start to happen until I embraced everything of who I am. So yes, being a developmental editor since 2006. Was important. Oh, and also, I just wanna say that when I had two decade careers in all those things, I am not 150 years old.

[00:05:18] Kathryn Craft: I, those concepts, those actually overlapped. 

[00:05:25] Nicole Meier: I love it. 

[00:05:26] Kathryn Craft: But the reason I phrase it the two decades is because I do have depth in each of those areas. So I wanna start with the first seed for this. I wrote a chapter for a compilation of essays that Therese Walsh had put together called Author in Progress that came out in 2016 when the final editing was being done.

[00:05:57] Kathryn Craft: The Writer's Digest books editor contacted there and said, would you see if it's okay if I contact Catherine Kraft personal? And I thought, oh man, what would your first thought be? Right? So my first thought is, oh man, I'm really in trouble. My chapter, the whole premise sucks. I'm gonna have to redo everything.

[00:06:22] Kathryn Craft: And Therese just didn't wanna tell me herself that that's how I felt. Oh my gosh. And sure enough, she sends me this email. Flabbergasted me. She said, you may not know this, but I edited you before when you did an interview with Janice Gable Ashman about the use of macro structures in fiction for the front of the Short Story Novel Writer's Guide one year.

[00:06:51] Nicole Meier: Oh, you're kidding. 

[00:06:52] Kathryn Craft: I had no idea because it was Janice's. She pitched me the interview and so she dealt with the editor. I had no idea who the editor was, so she'd worked with me. I can't remember if she did an article I did for Writer's Digest too, but she'd edited me several times and she said, there's just something about your voice and the way you write about writing.

[00:07:15] Kathryn Craft: That would make me feel remiss as the acquisitions editor for Writers' Digest books if I didn't ask, do you have a book in you? Draft book? 

[00:07:26] Nicole Meier: Wow. 

[00:07:27] Kathryn Craft: Now 

[00:07:27] Nicole Meier: what do you think I wanted to say? I'm so curious how you felt on the inside when she said that. I said, 

[00:07:35] Kathryn Craft: this is an amazing opportunity. Thank you. I felt like.

[00:07:39] Kathryn Craft: The kid who goes to be a waitress in LA and actually gets discovered by the Hollywood director she's waiting on, 

[00:07:47] Nicole Meier: that's how I feel. Great analogy. I love 

[00:07:51] Kathryn Craft: that. So I said, I'm gonna have to think this over. My immediate answer is yes, but let me think it over and pitch you some ideas. Well, let me tell you how many ideas, how many titles I thought of.

[00:08:08] Kathryn Craft: Got rid of thought of, got rid of, because I am a total craft book geek. You may be too. I have, I'm sure, over 200 titles. Wow. That's more than me. That's just craft books. And I just, I learned so much from them, and I think from my teachers. So literally my teachers are looking over my shoulder when I write my office.

[00:08:35] Kathryn Craft: I love that feeling. I'm not in this alone. I've got all of this help behind me. So I credit a lot of those people in my acknowledgements. I've only met some of them, but the other people were every bit as much my teacher. 

[00:08:49] Nicole Meier: I wanna pause right there because that for any writer listening, I really love that you said that.

[00:08:55] Nicole Meier: Obviously you don't wanna write alone, none of us do anymore, but you had all of your teachers and your sort of guides. Not looking over your shoulder judging you, but encouraging you behind you on the shelf. And that is such a good reminder for all of us to reframe it that way. These are the people who are cheering you on from their craft books.

[00:09:13] Kathryn Craft: Yeah, and what's really cool is that some of my students, like in the year novel year, and even prior to that, people I've done developmental edits for people who came to my home for many years of sessions. Writing on the spot sessions, I called craft writing. We looked at like one little sliver of craft and then tried to apply it to a prompt and come up with something in 45 minutes, and then we would go around and not say, this is excellent.

[00:09:45] Kathryn Craft: It sucks, but did you use that piece of craft so that you get practice with it right away, not just stick it in a folder and never look at it again? Well, some of those people have said. They'll send me little emails. Catherine, I just moved my most important word to the end of the sentence so it would, in quotes, resonate.

[00:10:08] Kathryn Craft: It's 

[00:10:08] Nicole Meier: great though. Look at how that fresh inspiration completely sparked something new in them. I know, 

[00:10:13] Kathryn Craft: and I was just catching up with one of my, your novel year people from. She was in the 2020 cohort, and I know that because she was in the class that started out in my home and then had to change fully online.

[00:10:27] Kathryn Craft: I've kept it on fully online ever since. But I had met her at the 2018 Philadelphia Writers Conference, and she came up to me afterwards and she said, my mind is a buzz. I just connected with everything you said so much. Well, we were catching up on a FaceTime. She said, Catherine, I will never forget something you said at the 2018 conference.

[00:10:55] Kathryn Craft: And I'm like, are you serious? I love 

[00:10:59] Nicole Meier: it. 

[00:10:59] Kathryn Craft: Sometimes. Forget what I said yesterday, you know? And she said. Perspective is a blade that you can cut into your story with on a slant. 

[00:11:11] Nicole Meier: Wow. Good one, Catherine. That's very effective. 

[00:11:16] Kathryn Craft: Yeah, so anyway, it's been fun that the way I feel about my mentors, I'm stepping into a lineage in a way, pass or fail, you know?

[00:11:27] Nicole Meier: Yes. 

[00:11:27] Kathryn Craft: I'm putting it out there and so. I had a friend who was very pro this idea, you need to write this craft book. Now you, this is your year of yes. You just have to say yes. Well, I'm saying yes. I had no compunction about it, but I really needed to bring something new to a cannon that I already knew was very robust because I own them all the way now.

[00:11:57] Nicole Meier: Yes. 

[00:11:58] Kathryn Craft: Did it feel intimidating? Yeah, because, what do I have to say that's different? 

[00:12:03] Nicole Meier: Spoken like a true writer. 

[00:12:05] Kathryn Craft: Yeah. Or teacher, you know? Or teacher. Yeah. Yeah. I'm part of a lineage. 

[00:12:11] Nicole Meier: Yes. 

[00:12:11] Kathryn Craft: As all artists are really, I mean, we've all probably been to museums and seen art students sketching in the style of Picasso, and writers do this all the time.

[00:12:22] Kathryn Craft: So then Therese Walsh had another role to play unwittingly. In 2022, which was still dicey whether people were gonna meet in person again. So she had one of her writer on Boxed Unconferences, which she calls it that because it's all about craft and the writing life. There's no pitch sessions, there's no business writing, no marketing.

[00:12:49] Kathryn Craft: It's just down and dirty. Roll up your sleeves and plunge your hands into your manuscript sort of stuff. 

[00:12:56] Nicole Meier: I love the whole concept of an unconference, so that makes me so happy that it's still just thriving. 

[00:13:02] Kathryn Craft: I'm thrilled too because my home conference, the Greater Lehigh Valley Writers Group, as soon as the scale kind of tilted toward more self-publishing.

[00:13:14] Kathryn Craft: All the sessions were about marketing. 

[00:13:16] Nicole Meier: Yeah, I get it 

[00:13:17] Kathryn Craft: lost its allure to me now. I think they're kind of going back. I hope they continue that way. But anyway, so the session I pitched to Therese, which she accepted was called Get that Story Moving because it's the opposite of articles I've written about inadvertent ways that writers stole their own stories.

[00:13:39] Kathryn Craft: And the good news is that all 13 ways they stole their stories came from one person's developmental edit. I felt bad pointing it out, but if she would just get out of her way. Right. Be really good. There was so many good things. Well, she went on to publish that exact book, 

[00:14:02] Nicole Meier: which I love. That's great. Yeah.

[00:14:05] Nicole Meier: Did she use her developmental edit as an example way back then for the public to view? No, I was gonna say that's hard. Yeah. I 

[00:14:12] Kathryn Craft: justise all sorts of stuff and I made E instead of a she and all of that. But she did the work, and I know that you're familiar with this too. Some people just think it's gonna be easier, and when it isn't, it's over.

[00:14:29] Nicole Meier: Yes. 

[00:14:29] Kathryn Craft: They gave it a go. Yeah. No, no, no. Yeah, there's one go. 

[00:14:34] Nicole Meier: Yeah. So true. 

[00:14:37] Kathryn Craft: Go and go and go and go and go. And then there's the end. Oh yeah. I thought that was the end. Now it's the end. Oh no. Push that aside. Now it's really the end. Now it's the end. The end, 

[00:14:49] Nicole Meier: absolutely. I'm nodding and no people can't see me, but I'm nodding because it's so relatable.

[00:14:55] Kathryn Craft: Yeah. So I did this session on get your Story moving and. Something shifted underneath me, like the whole round, the whole way. I understand craft the whole why of it just blossomed in this new way and I thought, I have so much experience to give this fresh take on story movement. Taking my movement background, which I compartmentalized is just completely different.

[00:15:26] Kathryn Craft: Thing I was interested in earlier 

[00:15:29] Nicole Meier: in life. So share that with writers who don't know you. You have an extensive history with dance. 

[00:15:35] Kathryn Craft: Yeah. I danced for about 20 years. I was never a professional dancer. I was in a college dance company. I won some choreography awards. I was a professional choreographer. I did get paid for that.

[00:15:50] Kathryn Craft: And I did have a New York debut, which was exciting. Ah, love it in a piece by a professional choreographer, but that was the extent of it. I don't want to pretend I was prima ballerina material or anything like that, but very interestingly, considering that dance is a voiceless medium, it's where I found my voice.

[00:16:15] Kathryn Craft: It's where my artistic director looked at me and said. This is interesting to me. Look at this, this group here, look at this person here. And then her husband, who was the dean of the English department, wrote this whole thing about what he thought one of my dances meant. And all I thought was, it's an individual versus the group.

[00:16:39] Kathryn Craft: And he said it's democracy versus communism. It's like all of these heady subjects. And I was like, no, it's a dancer in a group. How cool is that? You know? So 

[00:16:51] Nicole Meier: cool. 

[00:16:52] Kathryn Craft: I told a story about a person who's trying to find their place in a group and is rejected and is that a good thing or a bad thing? It raised questions.

[00:17:02] Kathryn Craft: This is what storytelling does. It raises questions that invite the reader in and that. It's the beginning of story movement. 

[00:17:11] Nicole Meier: I love it. 

[00:17:11] Kathryn Craft: You drawn toward an idea, a concept. That's the very start of it. And then you need to draw the reader into the concept as well where you can meet on the page, not in all of those black marks, because the black marks are like the steps in dance.

[00:17:35] Kathryn Craft: We learn many steps in dance. Almost always ballet based, but modern dancers have things they call, then you do the worldly gig. You know, they just got names. But it isn't the execution of the worldly gig. It isn't the potable ray or any other dance term. It's what each individual dancer brings to the intention of moving from the warley gig into the pot bore.

[00:18:05] Kathryn Craft: It's in space. That's where the author meets the reader in the spaces of a novel. A novel isn't a bunch of black marks that creates words. It's the intention between the words. It's that space after the period where that last concepts resonates. And you think, huh? And it raises an expectation. And those expectations need to be managed.

[00:18:35] Kathryn Craft: By the writer so that the correct questions are raised and you're not sending them down a blind alley. 

[00:18:44] Nicole Meier: Right. Oh, Catherine, that's such a beautiful way of demonstrating that, and I'm thinking of all sort of the plot based writers out there who are so concerned about the plot twist and catching the reader by surprise, catching the protagonist by surprise.

[00:18:58] Nicole Meier: We forget about the intention and the spaces where the writer meets the reader and the character, and I love that you brought that in because it just sort of takes it away from that sort of hard hitting approach into more of an intentional approach. 

[00:19:14] Kathryn Craft: Yeah, 

[00:19:14] Nicole Meier: yeah. 

[00:19:15] Kathryn Craft: And so the very first concept was that movement is a transfer of energy.

[00:19:24] Kathryn Craft: We summon it. Sometimes from the ground in Tai Chi, you pull the energy up from the ground and pull it up through your body and you. Put it up into the air. I'm brazing my hands up. You can see me. I'm flicking the energy into the air and opening my arms and just watching it Twitter down toward the ground.

[00:19:46] Kathryn Craft: And that is the kind of movement that begins a step and dance. You're pressing off the ground and lifting your leg to move it intentionally to another place. It's a lot like yoga too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's even in Shava now, which is the death pose, right? You're not still, you can never be still, if you are alive, even after death, there are still chemical reactions going on.

[00:20:18] Kathryn Craft: There's decomposition, sorry, I don't mean to get into a really gross area here, but there's always something going on at the cellular level. In the human body. There's the heart pumping. The exchange with the lungs, sending oxygen to the brain, and all of that contributes is what the author contributes in movement to what they're putting on the page.

[00:20:49] Kathryn Craft: We move our hands when we type, or if you're the type to use longhand. I love the concept of you're taking ideas from the zeitgeist in through your head, filtering them through your experience, sending them down through your blood into the hand and pouring them onto the page. I mean, these are beautiful, beautiful concepts that help us connect to our writing.

[00:21:15] Nicole Meier: And I also, when you were talking about that, Catherine, it's also a way of staying present. Unfortunately, my listeners can't see you. You know, you're showing the energy moving through the body, but it's important to stay present in the work because a lot of times our brain is moving a a million miles a minute to the next plot point and the next piece of the character's development.

[00:21:33] Nicole Meier: But what you're talking about brings it back to intention, brings it back to presence, and keeps the energy focused where it should be. I love that. 

[00:21:42] Kathryn Craft: I have to apologize to your listeners because I am very handsy and I think it is part of my dance background. Yes. Because I can't stop the movement. But every candid photograph that's been taken of me in conference sessions, I may be pausing, but my hands are a blur.

[00:22:02] Nicole Meier: That's great. It's very helpful. It's very helpful because sometimes we need to see it demonstrated in a physical way. 

[00:22:09] Kathryn Craft: Yeah. Yeah. So. Once that conference session happened that get your story moving, I thought, oh my gosh, I have such a wealth of experience and material and I started to investigate In various novels I'd been reading, why does this passage stand out like a golden light?

[00:22:34] Kathryn Craft: To me, it's always story movement of one sort or another. So I started to write down. All these different forms of story movement. Sometimes it's the simple movement of a protagonist through her environment. But if it's goal oriented, there's intention yes difference. You never see a dancer come out of the wings and then just wander around looking up at the lights and, oh, there's the audience.

[00:23:04] Kathryn Craft: They always have a reason for coming on stage. And sometimes we forget that especially, I was gonna say, especially beginning writers, but 

[00:23:14] Nicole Meier: all of us 

[00:23:15] Kathryn Craft: genetic about it. You have to say, why is your character going to be in this scene? What do they want? Why is this other character coming on? We often treat our secondary characters like tools, but no one wants to be a tool in someone else's story.

[00:23:32] Kathryn Craft: And secondly. A hammer always acts like a hammer. We want something a little more unpredictable. We want a wholly fleshed out human being who has their own needs, desires, limitations, prejudices, all of those things that they bring to the scene, and then that's when a story really pops. 

[00:23:52] Nicole Meier: Oh, I love it. Okay, so this actually offers me a beautiful segue because I wanted to talk about the extensive research and reading and sharing that you do in your new book.

[00:24:03] Nicole Meier: From other people's works, you use 'em as examples, you give your own insights, you do a little bit of analyzation, so can you talk about that? Is this something you did in your mentoring with other writers in the early days, or is this something new that came to you recently? 

[00:24:18] Kathryn Craft: It probably started when I started blogging for the Blood Red Pencil in 2008, and I had a periodic theme called.

[00:24:31] Kathryn Craft: Caught exclamation point, an author doing something right, and I was pulling excerpts from books at that time, and I used some of those. For example, probably my most seen blog post of all time was way back as one of those posts because it was. Caught Stephanie Meyer caught doing something right, or whatever.

[00:25:04] Kathryn Craft: The author of Twilight. Yeah, yeah. Which people love to dis her. 

[00:25:09] Nicole Meier: Yeah. 

[00:25:10] Kathryn Craft: Authors. Oh, this is vapid writing. Mm-hmm. She just had a dream and then she thought she could write a novel, whatever. Well, you know, anytime somebody hits the New York Times Best Seller list, right out of the gate. A hereto for unknown person who was never on TikTok and became first or anything, and then continued to sell really well for an entire series of books.

[00:25:42] Kathryn Craft: She has something to teach us. 

[00:25:44] Nicole Meier: Yes, and look how many people, books like that as example got reading who never really read more than a People magazine. There's so many books out there that people like to tear apart. It's like they're getting people reading again, and that's really important. Exactly. And not 

[00:26:00] Kathryn Craft: only that, keeping them hooked between books.

[00:26:03] Nicole Meier: Yes, 

[00:26:03] Kathryn Craft: because people had to wait for the next book. How many other series could they have started? Older series that were equally as good, maybe even better, that could have stated their desire for a series and they just forgot to come back. No one forgot to come back. They just, you know, installment after installment for one reason.

[00:26:26] Kathryn Craft: Delayed sexual gratification. If you can keep two people Yeah. Who clearly are into each other apart for that many books, you two can be in New York 

[00:26:40] Nicole Meier: Times dress up. Or just be really good at writing. Story tension. Yes. I love that, Catherine. I wasn't expecting you to say that, and that just gives me a little thrill.

[00:26:51] Kathryn Craft: Well, of course, delayed sexual gratification is tension. And Donald Moss had talked in one of his books about micro tension and to play a game where you pick up a book, pick up your own manuscript, open it to any page. And do you have at least one aspect of tension on that page? If not, fix it. Now. I played that game so many times with Twilight, the first installment of, I read the whole series.

[00:27:26] Kathryn Craft: Whoa. I love beautiful prose. I love a perfectly crafted sentence, but still I read the whole series 'cause I wanted to know what happened. She raised so many questions that she didn't answer. That's another real trick to maintaining tension and tension is story movement. You are on a hook and you will be dragged anywhere to find out what the answer to the question is.

[00:27:52] Kathryn Craft: So every single time I played the micro tension game with Twilight, I found something. And it might be as small as a dialogue tag that says, well, that's what I said, but it wasn't what I meant. Ooh, ooh. What does that mean? I'll read on to find out what she means by that. From techniques small to very large, I've been drawn to certain segments of books, excerpts that feel like colored with golden light.

[00:28:26] Kathryn Craft: I remember them for a very long time and I went back and analyzed them, and always it boiled down to one of those subcategories, a story movement. Then I started reading interviews with authors, which has become like one of my favorite things. What gave you the idea for this? Why did you think it could go?

[00:28:52] Kathryn Craft: The distance and something tugged at their heart or peaked their curiosity, and they just had to know. And so that's the first movement. Our interest in our own story, and if ever it seems boring or whatever, that maybe can't be fixed, maybe you should just set it aside because you can't ask someone else to tell you what to love about your own story.

[00:29:25] Kathryn Craft: That has to be true blue. It has to rise up from within you, from all your experiences, all your own wounds. That's why we need to be vulnerable on the page. And so just to wrap up the whole writer thing, in light of that, I have used every aspect of who I am, who I was as a dancer, who I still am as a dancer, because in my first novel.

[00:29:54] Kathryn Craft: My protagonist has to take a lengthy leave of absence from dancing, and she says, well, I used to be a dancer. And her mentor says, oh, that's ridiculous. If you were once a dancer, you're always a dancer. It's a way of thinking. I came up with that in my own mind and never accessed it until that, get that story moving, and then I had story movement.

[00:30:23] Kathryn Craft: So I went to contact Rachel Randall. She had left Writer's Digest books about four years earlier, so I lost my contact. In the meantime though, self-publishing had been burgeoning as a well-respected sector from being kind of a joke. It used to be, but self gratifying thing. And it's come a long way and in nonfiction because a lot of people.

[00:30:50] Kathryn Craft: Want these books to sell in the back of the room. They know and understand their expertise. They don't need to seek the validation of somebody else saying it 

[00:31:00] Nicole Meier: or wait three years before it's on the shelf. Exactly. Well, I so appreciate that you brought in so many examples from other writers, from other author interviews into your craft book because people love a good example.

[00:31:14] Nicole Meier: It's one thing to try and tell people. It's another thing to show them to be very cliche about writing, but you're showing them true examples. And something else you brought up was Donald Moss. I did. So I wanna point this out because I was thrilled for you about this. So getting Donald Moss to write your forward is no small feat.

[00:31:37] Nicole Meier: He's so well respected in the industry. So I would love to know what that experience was like. Was this something that you just envisioned? This is going to happen. Or is it something that you just said, I'm just gonna go for it. I hadn't think about it, I just went for it. 

[00:31:51] Kathryn Craft: Well, I'm going to be vulnerable here and tell this new story.

[00:31:56] Kathryn Craft: I used to be represented by his agency and I left that agency, and yet I'm still his colleague at Writer Unboxed. So I see him at the On Cons, and I think I picked up in some of his comments on my blog posts. That he doesn't always comment, but he had a respect for the things I was saying. And Peggy Fink was my roommate at the 2023 Uncon.

[00:32:28] Kathryn Craft: You know Peggy? Yes. And because we were all together in Chicago, remember? Right? Yeah, yeah. She was there at the same table. And we're always roommates at WWA events. She also is represented by the Donald Moss Agency, so. I was telling her that I was trying to get up the nerve to ask Don to do the forward, and she says, you should totally do it.

[00:32:56] Kathryn Craft: We're all friends. And I said, friends, um, you know, I still feel like the acolyte, you know, and he's the guru and she went down for whatever. And I was supposed to meet Don that day for breakfast. I got that far. But I didn't know if I could really do it. And so I was sitting in the lobby where I was supposed to meet and he didn't come down off the elevator until like 10 of eight.

[00:33:24] Kathryn Craft: And he was speaking at eight and he just blew right past me and went out the door and I saw him come back with a coffee and a bag and I said. Oh, done. Did you forget? And he goes, oh, oh, oh my God. Oh my God. I'm so embarrassed. I'm so embarrassed. Oh, I said, don't worry about it. He said, I have a session right now, but let's look at my calendar.

[00:33:45] Kathryn Craft: Let's do dinner tomorrow night. Do you wanna bring Peggy along? Whatever. So I said, look, if you have 10 minutes right now. I just need to talk to you right now 'cause I could not live. Oh my gosh. I, I mean, I was so nervous and I literally had, you know, that saying I had to pull up my big girl panties. Yes.

[00:34:08] Kathryn Craft: Just get her done. And so I'm sitting next to him on the couch and I'm like, I've written this book, crafting Story movement. Techniques to engage readers and drive your story forward. Where I'm pulling from my dance background, he says, that sounds fascinating. And I said, I'm wondering if you would review the manuscript with an eye toward.

[00:34:30] Kathryn Craft: Writing the forward, he says, of course I would. I'm surprised you felt like you even need to ask. Well, what am I gonna do? Assign it to him. Nicole, 

[00:34:40] Nicole Meier: I burst into tears. Oh, Catherine. I mean, anyone listening can appreciate because it's so hard to ask anyone for a blurb, a review, uh, let alone a forward, let alone a guru in the industry.

[00:34:52] Nicole Meier: Catherine, I just lost it. And he says, 

[00:34:55] Kathryn Craft: why are you crying? And I said. I dunno. Oh. 'cause I think because of leaving your agency, and I didn't know how you felt about it. It's like we've never talked about it. And he said, Catherine, it's your career. You need to do the best thing for you. That's always true.

[00:35:12] Kathryn Craft: Even if that means leaving my agency, I mean, he wasn't my agent, but still, yes. And that was such a lovely thing to say. So can I read you my favorite part? 

[00:35:22] Nicole Meier: Yes, you can. What a beautiful exchange between the two of you. 

[00:35:26] Kathryn Craft: I know this is my favorite thing. He said, when Catherine writes movement is a transfer of energy, or explains why movement on stage is most gripping on a diagonal.

[00:35:38] Kathryn Craft: She is not just spinning fancy metaphors for writing. She is opening practical approaches to creating story momentum. I love this book. You might think at this point that there is nothing new to say about the craft of fiction, but there is, and Catherine is saying it here. 

[00:35:57] Nicole Meier: Oh, Catherine, I read that too. I got a little choked up for you.

[00:36:02] Nicole Meier: I mean, really look at all of your life's work that you've come to this point to culminate into that testament of what you're bringing to the table. Congratulations. 

[00:36:14] Kathryn Craft: Thank you. 

[00:36:16] Nicole Meier: Okay. I feel like readers and writers are definitely going to want to know when the book comes out, where they can find it, where they can find you, how can they connect with you?

[00:36:27] Kathryn Craft: October 7th is the big day and it should be available on Amazon, and any bookstore should be able to order it if it's not on their shelves, and my website is. Katherine, K-A-T-H-R-Y-N craft, CRAF t.com. I 

[00:36:52] Nicole Meier: love it. Thank you for sharing everything about your forthcoming book. I, readers and writers. I really encourage you, if you're curious about the craft of novel writing, the craft of storytelling, how we can talk about movement and dance and all things Catherine Craft.

[00:37:09] Nicole Meier: I really encourage you to just run out and purchase the book. Thank you so much for being here today, Catherine. 

[00:37:15] Kathryn Craft: It was so much fun. Thank you for your interest and especially for your dedication to the whole writer. I love that concept and I wish you the very best with your podcast. 

[00:37:27] Nicole Meier: Thank you Catherine.

[00:37:28] Nicole Meier: Okay, listeners, we will see you next time on the whole writer.

[00:37:37] Nicole Meier: If you want to check out my coaching programs for fiction writers, visit nicolemeier.com. That's M-E-I-E-R. And if you like this episode, I'd love you to take a minute to leave a rating and review for this podcast. This will help more writers like you to discover the show. And to get going on their writing journey.

[00:37:57] Nicole Meier: Thanks so much for listening. Until next time, happy writing everyone.

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