Author Chat with Joelle Kaufman

Joelle Kaufman — cancer survivor, BRCA1 carrier, and author of “Crushing the Cancer Curve Ball: A Playbook for the Newly Diagnosed (and Their Family and Friends)” — joins Josie and co-host Brad Buchanan to talk about building a practical, compassionate “approach at the plate” for life with cancer. Joelle shares how writing helped her process, why her book is deliberately modular for foggy days, the origins of her free financial-toxicity calculator, and her idea of “happiness tripwires”. The conversation lands on a memorable refrain: we don’t choose the pitch; we choose the swing.

Relevant links for this episode:

• Joelle Kaufman:
  • Joelle Kaufman: https://joellekaufman.com
  • Kicking Cancer's Ass Podcast: https://www.kcapodcast.com
  • Joelle Kaufman Revenue Catalyst Coaching: http://www.gtmflow.com
• Breast Cancer in Men: https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/types/breast-male 
• Cold Caps: https://www.cancer.org/cancer/managing-cancer/side-effects/hair-skin-nails/hair-loss/cold-caps.html 
• Cancer Gene Mutation Facts: https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/genetics/brca-fact-sheet

General Links:

• Disclaimers: https://cancersurvivormd.org/disclaimers/
• Brad Buchanan: https://linktr.ee/bradthechimera
• G [Josie] van Londen: https://linktr.ee/cancersurvivormd
• CancerBridges: https://cancerbridges.org/

Transcript

Author Chat Joelle Kaufman 
 

[00:00:00]  
 

[00:00:00] Introduction 
 

[00:00:00] G van Londen (2): Hello everybody. We are back with another episode of Author Chat and we're very lucky to have a very special person with us today. Her name is Joelle Kaufman and she wrote an amazing book, crushing the Cancer Curve Ball, and what Joelle probably doesn't know is my son is playing baseball in college and so our house is full of baseball metaphors, one of the questions I'll ask her is how you came up with these metaphors or many of the words that she comes up with. But before we go into the conversation, I have asked Brad if he can please help me introduce  

[00:00:44] Brad Buchanan: Oh, Josie, I'd be very happy to thank you. And in fact, I just had a great chat with Joelle on her podcast, kicking Cancers Ass, which will be coming out, soon-ish, I believe. And yeah, Joelle is amazing. [00:01:00] Uh, I'll read her bio. She's a cancer survivor and author. She transforms the cancer experience Through her powerful blend of business acumen and personal resilience, a Harvard Business School graduate and former CMO turned coach and advisor, Joelle faced her own breast cancer diagnosis with the same strategic mindset that built her successful career. 

Her book Crushing the Cancer Curve Ball, a Playbook for the Newly Diagnosed and their family and friends. Emerges from her journey as a BRCA-1 carrier who refused to let breast cancer define her story through her kicking Cancer's ass podcast. Joelle creates a fierce community of survivors and supporters proving that with the right mindset and tools, cancer becomes not a death sentence, but a catalyst to living more boldly than ever before. 

Um, so yeah, that, that's a, that's a great summary here. But, uh, I could also just [00:02:00] share my impressions of Joelle as a fabulous listener, empathetic, and, has a way with the metaphors as we will get into, uh, soon.  

Now Joelle, I guess I'd like to, invite you to talk a little bit more about, first of all your book how that, came to be, what was the process and what was your aim in writing it and so forth.  

[00:02:23] Joelle Kaufman: Sure, I'd be happy to, and thank you both for having me. 

Brad, I can't tell you what high praise it is to have a poet tell me. I have a way with words, I'm tickled.  

[00:02:32] Brad Buchanan: Game recognizes game Joelle. 

[00:02:34] How did the book come to be 
 

[00:02:34] Joelle Kaufman: Amen. So when I, I found out I had breast cancer the day before my scheduled prophylactic, bilateral mastectomy, that is when the universe flipped me, the bird. 

I could argue I was the most prepared person in the universe. To hear that because my mother had heard it 40 years prior and my sister 20 years prior. So I've [00:03:00] been to this particular gothic amusement park before and I know it is the worst amusement park and you don't wanna stay there. but you're stuck. 

You have to go through it. That's the only way out. a lot of people knew that I was gonna have this surgery because I was telling my work colleagues and my friends it was a big surgery. I, I had 300 people who were gonna ask the next day, how did the surgery go? I was forced to share my cancer diagnosis before I knew very much about it. 

Before I knew a treatment plan, before I had a team. I basically just wanted people not to call us the next day to ask how the surgery went because one of the things you know from going through cancer a lot of times, and I think I was the 12th in my family, is it's really a bummer to tell the same sad story. 

Over and over. Right, [00:04:00] guys? Oh yeah. Right. And people ask out of the goodness of their heart, like it's really genuine love and support. They're not trying to drag us down, they're just asking because they care. But us or our primary caregiver or our family members are on repeat telling the worst story they've ever told. 

I said, I don't wanna do that. So I told it once and then I said, I will be putting updates on CaringBridge. I started writing and the writing revealed two things, maybe three. One, I actually process how I'm feeling by writing, so that was awesome. Two, I'm actually funny. Which I never would've described myself, but I'm a bit funny and I did see so many things in the cancer journey as patently absurd,  

There are so many things you're looking at your body. Let's just pause for a moment and picture [00:05:00] cold capping, and I know this is an audio podcast, but when someone cold caps to preserve their hair when they're going through chemotherapy, they basically look like they're either. A scuba diver or an astronaut, right? 

They've got a helmet on their head and they're either putting dry ice on top of it or they are plugged into a machine in order to refrigerate their head down to almost freezing. Like, this is absurd. Like it's just absurd. I'm glad I did it. I'm glad it worked, but you had to laugh about it 'cause it's funny. 

Uh, and the third thing I learned is people actually liked reading what I wrote. 

So when I completed treatment and I was very lucky, I was very successful. My tumor responded to the first course of chemotherapy. my surgery went without complications. I was very blessed. People told me they missed my writing, and [00:06:00] my doctors told me of all the patients they've seen in their illustrious careers, I had transited cancer differently than virtually everybody else. And that made me pause to think that perhaps what I had learned over 40 years was meant to be shared, was meant to be a life ring for people. In that moment when they have, you need a biopsy or we see something on the scan through to, there's a diagnosis and the worst thing you can ever hear, right, it's cancer. 

Then you wait. You wait to get started. You wait to see if it worked. You wait. There's a lot of anxiety in the waiting, so what if I could be a life ring and say, Hey, this is what's going on. This is what you can do. This is what you can tell other people to do. In fact, there's a whole chapter in the book, I think it's chapter 16 for [00:07:00] other people. 

Because people say, what can I do? Look, I don't have the time to go manage all the wonderful people who wanna help me. But if they all read chapter 16, they'd say, I would like to do this. 'cause it's a list of all the things you can do. And then you can say, I would like to, or can I create the signup to organize everybody else on the things we can do? 

God bless you if you do that. My best friend Jessica did that. What an awesome gift. So I wrote the book because people shouldn't have to go through it 12 times and live through it for 42 years to feel like they have a idea of what's coming and how to approach it. And God knows Brad and Josie, if we trusted television and movies and their depiction. 

Everybody thinks they're gonna be sick, bald, and dead, which they're not. 

[00:07:56] Content of the book 
 

[00:07:56] G van Londen (2): but still, I hear how you [00:08:00] describe, how you came to write the book, but I think, for you sort of a natural development, you, you sort of had no other choice. You were propelled to do this and what I like about your way of doing it is because you're obviously, you're having no medical background, self-taught in many ways, but you write in a very relatable way, very hands-on. 

And, the way you have divided the book is also very interesting in little, pieces, to follow along each part of the journey. So that for those who don't have enough bandwidth, to read the whole book at once, they don't really have to, they can chop it in little pieces and go to that part where they're at right now. 

and what I also like, which is probably your business background. Your website has checklists and [00:09:00] she just told me before we started recording a financial calculator, which is very interesting, why don't I just let you talk, Joelle, about all these things. 

[00:09:12] Joelle Kaufman: Sure. So the book was actually deliberately designed. In these, digestible nuggets. And if where you are is diagnosis, you don't need to read about post-surgical. You can if you want, but you don't need to. And if all you wanna do is read one short chapter, the chapters are five or six pages.  

There's a checklist at the end that'll tell you what you should remember, because a lot of times when you're going through cancer or you're supporting somebody who is, your brain is a little bit foggy. There's just a lot going on. So I wanted to make it easy. In fact, if you really don't wanna spend a lot of time, you could just skip to the conclusion, which summarizes the entire book. 

It's like the mother of all checklists. Depending on where [00:10:00] you're at. Some people love the stories from different people's journeys. Some people hate them. Fine. I don't care if you read this end to end. I care that it helps you. 

[00:10:11] Joelle's motivators to write 
 

[00:10:11] Joelle Kaufman: And I was compelled to do this. Maybe it was some deep need to make sense of why my family has danced with cancer since I was 13, and the answer is genetics. 

Maybe there's environmental, but we're healthy. We don't smoke, we exercise, we eat well. We just have a genetic mutation that occasionally runs rampant. And the good news is we're watched for it. I find so many people wonder what they did wrong to get cancer. And I always wanna say to everybody, nothing, you didn't cause your cancer. 

You're a doctor, Josie. If we knew the one thing everybody could do that would ensure they never got cancer, we'd tell everyone it wouldn't be a secret, [00:11:00] but we don't. We know live healthy, reduce your risk, sleep, reduce stress, eat well, don't smoke, don't drink to excess. All the things that also will reduce your cardiovascular risk or your stroke risk or your other risk. 

Living is risky. Manage it, but you didn't cause your cancer. 

[00:11:22] Checklists 
 

[00:11:22] Joelle Kaufman: Now, the financial calculator, I started creating these checklists partially because when you go through and, and you get diagnosed, sometimes a really good cancer center will give you a packet. I also got packets from Sharsheret. You know, nonprofits have packets and they send you paper. 

my house seems to allow paper to be Copious and multiply, and then it's just like a hoarder site, like the paper has to go. What I really want is a checklist, and I love checking things off a list. So I said, well, let me [00:12:00] synthesize this into checklists. There's even a workbook on Joelle kaufman.com that people can buy. 

It's like $10 where everything's digital. You can make copies, but you wanna prep for your appointment. There's a prep sheet. You wanna talk about self-care, there's a prep sheet. You wanna talk about your feelings. There's prompts all of this to say, choose your own adventure, but here's some structure and then we get to money. 

[00:12:27] Financial Toxicity Calculator 
 

[00:12:27] Joelle Kaufman: So I was through my treatment, having my own fights with insurance. I started reading about how many people were bankrupt, stressed out, and it had to do not with their cancer, but with money, and it had to do with surprises. It is impossible to get a estimate of what your treatment will cost. 

Impossible in the United States. now there are some good reasons. We don't know if there'll be [00:13:00] complications, if you'll need other medications. Like there are things that can make it more expensive and you want them, like if you're having an anemic response to chemotherapy, you want a red cell booster. 

I did not need that, so I did not get that. But they really can't tell you anything. About the price range, what have you, and it's not the treatment that throws people completely for a loop. If they're insured, it's losing work and losing money for work. Some people can't work or leave their work, or get fired, and now they have an insurance problem and an income problem. 

It's the childcare you need for when you're getting treatment or you are tired. From your treatment or sick, it's the elder care you might need, depending on who you might be taking care of. And I'm saying you're getting treatment somewhere near your home. If you're not, it's the travel and the accommodations. 

Like [00:14:00] all of this stuff adds up at a time when you are probably making less money. So what I did with my financial advisors, we built a calculator. What we wanted to do was help people anticipate when they might be getting into trouble, because there are actually all kinds of assistance programs and foundations that are out there to help people. 

The problem is none of that happens quickly, so we have to have a plan. So when you use the financial calculator, it asks you thing like. What is your max deductible in network? Out of network? And are you getting treated in network or out of network? Okay, that's an amount of money you are going to spend during your cancer. 

Year. Number two, what is your maximum out of pocket? Annual and lifetime? Annual is gonna tell you this is where it maxes out this [00:15:00] year. Lifetime is. This is where, you know, depending on what you need for treatment. It could be over five or six years. This is where your benefits end, right? That's in every health insurance plan. 

You can read that. What is your co-insurance that's different than a copay? What percent of the fees are you personally responsible with until you reach your max out of pocket for the year? And then you can play with the assumptions around will you work full-time? How much less time , what is your fixed expenses? 

What expenses are gonna go up? And the entire purpose of it is to say, Hey Josie, when you hit nine months from today, you are gonna feel a financial squeeze based on your savings, your costs, what have you. You should tell your doctor, they will connect you to a social worker. They can help you [00:16:00] find support. 

That can lighten the financial load. That's the purpose of the financial calculator, and you don't need to know exactly what your treatment's going to cost. Your treatment's going to cost more than your deductible, and it's probably gonna cost more than your max out of pocket. 

[00:16:19] G van Londen (2): the word financial toxicity comes to mind, which is basically what you're describing, and it happens with any disease, but in particular, cancer seems to be very devastating. there have not been many remedies, to prevent that or to treat that, if you call it a toxicity, there's many people working on it in many different ways,  

Education and raising awareness is also very important. And I think your very unique tool or calculator, I think, hopefully can spearhead.  

[00:16:54] Joelle Kaufman: I hope so. I think that, all knowledge is powerful, right? There go. [00:17:00] Why do you want your tumor to be fully pathologically analyzed? 

Because all knowledge is powerful. Why do you want the scans? Because all knowledge is powerful. So using the financial calculator and that's, it's available for free. I don't charge for that. Like use it because knowledge is powerful. It may scare you. Finding out I had triple negative breast cancer that was very aggressive. 

That wasn't on my MRI in June and was in January. That is a scary piece of information, but I'm glad to have it. it's the same with financial, that which we know we can actually start to put in place plans to deal with. If we don't know and we're surprised, it's actually much harder. That's part of the evilness of cancer right? 

It, it's a surprise diagnosis. You don't usually feel sick, you're not symptomatic. [00:18:00] There's this thing inside your body that could kill you and you don't feel bad. It's a very strange thing.  

[00:18:12] Every cancer is different yet also the same 
 

[00:18:12] Brad Buchanan: I was gonna ask about the title of Joelle's book, crushing the Cancer Curve Ball, A Playbook for the Newly Diagnosed or Family and Friends. 

my understanding is that this is aimed at primarily breast cancer patients. Is that correct? Um,  

[00:18:27] Joelle Kaufman: no. It's, it should be applicable to all cancers. I have, my family's lived through breast, prostate, lung, thyroid, colon, and I've talked to people with pancreatic, esophageal junction. 

You know, like every cancer is different. The treatment protocols are different, the prognoses are different, and every cancer is the same because it is cancer and there's going to be a team that Are going to help with treatment. treatment is likely to be [00:19:00] multi-phased. So these things are the same.  

[00:19:04] We think the curve ball is the surprise, but the real surprise is how it still catches us off guard. 
 

[00:19:04] Joelle Kaufman: the name of the book, crushing the Cancer Curve Ball, it's hard to name a book. 

You know this, Brad, 'cause you've written books. I was thrown off when my mother was diagnosed when I was 13. She was 36. She was healthy. Strong if she weighed a hundred pounds soaking wet. I mean, she was fit terrifying on the tennis court. And, she wasn't supposed to get cancer. Cancer happens to sick people who don't take care of themselves, and it was a curve ball, right? 

it careened into our life and it didn't look straight and it wasn't behaving like everything else that comes up. And when it came back I was like, damn, this curve ball moves a lot. I just always colloquial, used the word curveball and I saw curve balls when I was in college. I saw curve balls As I started my career, I believe [00:20:00] we get surprised by curve balls and that's the surprise. 

'cause curve balls are constant, right? So we need to take a page outta the baseball player book and Josie, I have a son who's a senior in college who plays baseball. So my boy is playing D three baseball and, he's an outfielder and that caused me, as I'm sure you did, to watch more baseball than I ever intended to watch in my life. 

in the theory of be interested in what your kid is interested in to build a relationship I remember connecting with my son when he was, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, whatever it was, and saying, tell me about hitting. And he was a good hitter. 

He's an outfielder he has to hit. And he said, well, mom, it's all about approach. And I said, what do you mean? Well, I mean, I practice in the cage, but I think through how do I wanna approach the plate? What pitch am I looking for? What [00:21:00] happens if I don't see that pitch and I'm two strikes down? 

What's the approach if there's a man on base and which base he's on? What's the approach if I'm a lead off, right? All of these are different scenarios depending on what's going on in what he sees. What a great metaphor for cancer, right? What's my approach? And then I will need to adapt my approach based on what is happening. 

and I do this with my clients in business. The way I get good at adapting and executing on my approach is practice. So the secret weapon I had when I faced cancer is I'd been at the game, I'd had a lot of at bats, or at least I was Right in the dugout. I was, you know, watching and we have to adjust this and wait, that pitcher throws dirty low and that one they go, high? 

[00:21:55] Curveballs can come in multiples 
 

[00:21:55] Joelle Kaufman: Right? Like I was there and I had been practicing my [00:22:00] approach. In my head to the point, I don't think I wrote this in the book. When my husband and I started dating, I hadn't had confirmed that I was BRCA one, but I basically had concluded. It turned out to be right, but it was wrong. It was wrong in that there's many families that have cancer that aren't brca. 

I happened to be one that is BRCA one, which I also think is a blessing because I have the single most researched genetic mutation on the planet. Right. Like, wow. It is very, I mean, Josie can, like, it is very deeply researched because there's a lot of genetic material. 

There's a lot of people. it is a better one for a researcher to choose because of availability of sample, right? So the good news is if there's gonna be like a vaccine or a cool treatment. There's a probability it'll end up with BRCA one because they research there. So yay. But [00:23:00] I told my husband, we were dating maybe three months. 

We were good friends. I said, Hey, you should know I have a very strong family history of breast cancer. It's highly probable I will get breast cancer. I will have a bilateral mastectomy when I get breast cancer. And you just need to know that's the plan. And he's like. Why are we talking about this? I said, 'cause we're not gonna talk about it then I know what I'm going to do. 

I even said when they told me I had cancer, let's do the surgery tomorrow. my surgeon said, not for your type of cancer. I said, what are you talking about? My mother and my sister had the same type of breast cancer There's like 120 varieties of breast cancer. 

So. This doesn't apply if you don't have my type of breast cancer, but genetically, my mother and sister and I all had the identical type of breast cancer, triple negative, super aggressive, the surgeon said, oh, with your type, the best approach is neoadjuvant chemo. We do chemo first, and then surgery. I [00:24:00] said, that's a change. 

[00:24:00] This is not a medical book 
 

[00:24:00] Joelle Kaufman: She goes, it is. We see better outcomes. I'm down for better outcomes. Mm-hmm. So this is why like in the book, I. I was told when I was writing it, aren't you going to interview your doctors? Now I have doctors on my podcast all the time. I love having experts, but I was very clear that the book was non-medical. 

There is nothing in the book that tells you what to do to treat your cancer. There's a lot in the book to tell you about developing your approach, but your approach is what you can do. Which is your mindset, your food, your people, your exercise. But when it comes down to how to treat your cancer, you need a medical team ideally that specializes in your type of your cancer. 

And I have no idea what that is, and I am not that person. So my doctors have all endorsed the book. [00:25:00] Part of why they endorsed it is it is useful to any patient and family, but it is not medical. We are not doing medicine via podcast and we are not doing medicine via my kind of publication, you can do it in, you know, if you're a doctor in JAMA and whatever, but even they would say like, I'm not writing diagnostics for people in a medical journal. 

I'm sharing science.  

[00:25:27] G van Londen (2): well, I think you said it earlier in the podcast, you are, making people feel heard and seen. They recognize themselves. I think you're empowering them to take care of themselves and to speak up for themselves. And I think those are, skills that are important for anybody, whether you're a new or a seasoned patient. I think you're offering a wealth of, skills and coping tools [00:26:00] it's a great book and there's a lot of books out there, but this book is different. 

It's witty. It's full of energy. 

[00:26:08] Happiness Tripwires 
 

[00:26:08] Joelle Kaufman: Thank you. I wanna share something that, I, I articulated through the book, but I was doing through my journey that I, I wish to everybody and everyone can do it. It's free, it's easy. So it's not helpful to tell a cancer patient to be happy or be grateful or be positive. 

You're just giving them an assignment and they've got enough to do. But it does help to trap happiness, right? So I created this concept of happiness tripwires, I knew I was gonna have chemotherapy and you know, I know Brad, you've had, I don't know if you have Josie, but you know, chemotherapy is no picnic and you know you're gonna do it. 

I did it once a week. So once a week I was gonna get [00:27:00] myself up to an infusion center and spend the day there. how do I make that a good day and not. A day, I dread.  

[00:27:12] Brad Buchanan: Mm-hmm.  
 

[00:27:13] Joelle Kaufman: And it's little things. So this is where happiness trip wires comes up. So first off, with the cold capping, I was allowed to wash my hair once a week. 

So of course it had to be infusion day. 'cause how fantastic is I get to wash my hair.  

[00:27:29] Brad Buchanan: Mm-hmm. Okay.  

[00:27:30] Joelle Kaufman: And truly the key on a happiness trip wire is to let yourself feel the happiness. Just a good scrub in your hair feels good. Okay. You couldn't even scrub it when you're going through chemo 'cause you don't want it to fall out. 

So just gently washing your hair, doesn't matter, you're clean. Then I had different friends drive me each week, so I got a 20 minute visit with a friend. That was really fun. Then I got to the infusion center and I'd check in [00:28:00] and they'd call me for my labs and I'd introduce them to my port, which I named Volta Port and. 

They did what? What you just did. You guys can't see it. 'cause this is audio. Josie's laughing, right? You heard Brad, but Josie is laughing over there and can you imagine a patient walks in, sits down into the, the phlebotomist and they say, how you doing? They said, fine. You're gonna use my port? Yeah, this is voldeport. 

And everyone starts laughing. I now am proud to say like there are at least a dozen people who have named their port because I say like. You should love your port ports are wonderful, so give it a name. Love your port. Okay, so and again, we're just in now. We're in the waiting. Are my labs gonna be good enough for chemo? 

So how do I make the waiting not suck? One of my sons, the baseball player, couldn't come home. I was treated starting in January, so he was in season. There's no coming home from New York. He wanted to do something. So I told him to write me a letter every week that [00:29:00] I would open on infusion day. If they turned out to be Google Docs perfect. 

I would get this letter and I'd open it and it was like digital chocolate. I was having a moment from my son that he wrote, and it was about his life. This wasn't, you know, deep thoughts about the meaning of my mother. This is like mm-hmm. What's happening in college. I will say he's a philosophy major and he's capable of deep thoughts, but that wasn't what he was writing about. 

I asked my rabbi for a playlist 'cause I, I can't really read and understand Hebrew, but I love to sing. And so she sent me a playlist of prayers and a YouTube list of where I could hear them. And I made a, a playlist. So then I'd open that up and then my other son sent me a music playlist of definitely not prayers, more like, you know, pump it up. 

So I have music. If I wanna pray and be reflective, great. If I wanna get amped up, I got that. I get a [00:30:00] text from one friend selling me emoji kisses. I get another text of from another friend, which is her dog's stupid trick of the day. I got another friend sending me funny emails and the hour goes by. 

Then I come in and we're going to do the cold cap thing, and I sit with them and the first time they came to cold cap me, I looked at them. They brought this little spray bottle in a comb. I said, what's that for? They said, oh, we have to wet your entire head. I said, do you see how much hair I have? You guys can't see this, but if you look at a picture of me, I have a lot of it. 

And I looked at 'em, I said. Do you have a bucket like this will go just faster if I just dunk my head in a bucket? Mm-hmm. Like, oh, we can't do that. Suffice to say I had a two person glam squad 'cause they realized they couldn't get it wet and keep it wet fast enough for to get into the cold cap. So I'd have fun with them. 

I'd actually be talking about their lives. I had a stuffed animal, a stegosaurus. Stego, these are all happiness trip wires. [00:31:00] Stego is just the right size to take my ID band and put it on Ste Go's neck, and then I could hold Stego so that when I'm under my warm blankets with my stupid helmet on and my ice mittens and my ice socks, I could go to sleep and have a nap through the chemo. 

And they don't have to wake me up to make sure that I'm me. They can do it off Stego 'cause Stego iss sitting right there. And so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes right. The meal I got that night, the friend who drove me home, the person who brought me lunch, the notes I got, each one of them was giving me little bursts of happiness. 

Well, it turns out this is a medical thing. Turns out that when you feel a burst of happiness, it releases hormones into your body, oxytocin, so you feel bonded. Dopamine so you feel, you know, clear and serotonin. Now that's really great for your mind and feeling happy [00:32:00] is, is a nice feeling. But they're also all immune system boosters. 

So in effect, I was making my chemo day into an immune system bonanza, right? All for free. Nobody had to do much. And the key thing was different people had their little part. Enough people had parts that if someone forgot one week, there were other people filling in the blanks. Stego, my fluffy slippers, my barrel of why I love you. 

tokens from my best friend from college. They were in my go bagg. They came with me. I didn't have to think about packing them, but all the other things would just come at me. And you know what? If I asked you all right now to think of something in the last 24 hours that made you smile. Just think about it 

You've just boosted your immune system. We don't need cancer. We don't need bad things to line our lives with happiness tripwires. We don't wanna [00:33:00] tell people to be happy. We want to give them happy, and we do it by telling them we love them. 

[00:33:06] Brad Buchanan: No, I mean, that's beautiful. That makes a lot of sense. and, you know, Joelle, I hearing you speak and, you know, hearing you talk about, all these practical things that, you know, that you found to those happiness trip wires and so forth. I wanna get back to something you said earlier on, which is that you found that writing was your best way to process your feelings. 

Now you seem very comfortable talking to other humans. you seem like you have plenty of family and friend support. So what did writing give you? you know, since again, I'm, I'm a writer. I go to writing first last and maybe too often, but what did writing give you that, that other things or people could, could not or did not in that, in that moment? 

[00:33:50] What did writing give you 
 

[00:33:50] Joelle Kaufman: That's a great question, Brad. So, I mean, first off, my writing started out pragmatic I didn't wanna repeat the news. Any piece of the [00:34:00] news. Mm-hmm. Over and over again. So the first was, it was very pragmatic. Then I found, um, I looked forward to doing. 

Because writing, and I say this to an English professor, like an English professor is about fairy, is about to get their wings. Writing forces you to organize your thoughts synthesize them and simplify them. Done well, writing is a pleasure to write and to read, so I found it was something I could always do. 

I could express myself. And this was before GPT and whatever, I maybe would've dictated it into a a GPT, but I don't think that would've had the same benefit. Like it was really great to just write. I mean, there was one time, it's one of my funniest posts, didn't get into the book because I never wanted to, embarrass the people that gave me such great care. 

But there was a day where I [00:35:00] ended up saying, I think I'm the UCSF secret shopper. And here's all the things that happened today, when I got there for the labs at eight 30 in the morning, I took out the MyChart and the schedule and said to each person I met, this will not work. 

Like I am really good at calendar math and this day does not work. There's not enough time for everything you've got on this day. Yeah. and it didn't work and it upset me when it didn't work 'cause someone promised me they'd make it work and, and whatever, like mistakes happen and it wasn't the end of the world. 

But, um, writing about it, I could calm myself down and just see the funny in it. Like, can you imagine guys? I'm sitting in the infusion center because of the cold capping on a good day, I was there for five and a half hours, right? And I knew this, so I was like, if the infusion doesn't start at 10 30, I cannot make the three o'clock. 

ultrasound guided, fine needle aspiration, like it's impossible. [00:36:00] So at 3 45, 'cause it did not start on time because of course it didn't. UCSF has trackers that you wear. So that they know where you are. It's if you fall or if there's a situation. Mm-hmm. Like it's a good thing. 

[00:36:12] Brad Buchanan: Yeah.  
 

[00:36:12] Joelle Kaufman: I'm sitting there in my infusion seat, which my butt has not left for five and a half hours other than to go to the bathroom. When I get a phone call saying, you're 45 minutes late for your appointment, we're rescheduling you like I am factually late. But you should know exactly where I am, like aren't I in your system? 

Yeah, yeah. Like I'm in your hospital, sitting in your chair, getting medication and treatment from your nurses. Like how is this a surprise to anybody that I'm not there because I'm here. So writing it help me see the absurdity helped me process. It helped me. Put it in the past. I wrote it down, it's out of my head. 

So it was incredibly therapeutic as well.  

[00:36:59] Brad Buchanan: [00:37:00] Yeah. that's a great story and that encapsulates a lot of the writing that I did. when I was incredibly frustrated with a particular member of my care team for some reason, or a doctor who had 

been stupid or insensitive or had shared something that he shouldn't have, at a very difficult time. you don't want to yell at these people because they're there to save you. They're not your enemies, they're doing their best or they think they're doing their best anyway. I would hope so. 

but often, yeah, they mess up the scheduling of everything in a totally predictable way, and that's incredibly frustrating. And writing about it rather than, you know, screaming out loud yes. Ranting to them or engaging in some other self-destructive behavior is a really safe way of just yeah. Saying, okay, I've written this down, I've recorded 

my thoughts and I have made my frustration explicit on the page, [00:38:00] and I can then turn the page and, you know, have a better attitude, the next time things come around. And I don't need to share, you know, the thing, that I've written down in private. 

Definitely get it. 'cause this is what we do. we do. But yeah, thank you. no, of course. Okay. Well that was a great illustration of the,  

[00:38:20] Joelle Kaufman: well, there's one thing I wanna add to it, Brad and Josie. When we have thoughts running around in our head when we speak them and other people kind of join in and, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't actually put them to rest. It fires them up. When we write them. We actually look at them, we can then step away. We may wanna turn the page as you said, or we may wanna submit the page. 

We may wanna use the page for something, but it has the opposite act. It doesn't fire us up. It helps us cool down. It helps us reset.  

[00:38:59] Brad Buchanan: [00:39:00] Yeah.  
 

[00:39:00] Joelle Kaufman: And all of us, I mean, to me, going back to baseball and to approach, it's a way to say, okay. Let me just process what just happened in this at bat. It did not go the way I wanted. 

What adjustments might I need to make? And now I'm looking at it, almost divorced from the emotional experience of what happened, and I need to get to that place. So I wanna feel the emotions, let them flow through me, let them flow onto the page, put it all out there. Then I want to get to a place where I can look at it reflectively. 

[00:39:38] G van Londen (2): as somebody who has a great interest in psychology and psychoanalysis, you're describing a cathartic process and then a process to see if there's anything you can learn from it and improve the next time. there's so much to be said for that, just to take time to pause instead of continuing to run [00:40:00] like a 

[00:40:00] Joelle Kaufman: like a hamster on a wheel. 

[00:40:02]   We don't choose the pitch we get. We only choose the swing. 
 

[00:40:02] G van Londen (2): Thank you. What you're describing is your whole life is a journey. 

Some parts of it maybe are less pleasant or outright terrible, but it's still part of your journey and your mindset is very special that you can celebrate, if that's how you call it, every moment of that journey, because it is your journey you don't let cancer take that away. You're still connecting with your friends, with your children, and maybe not the way you anticipated to, but you're still bonding as you called it. 

It's really an interesting mindset that is not easy for everybody to get there. And hold on to that and maybe that's what I'm trying to put my finger on that you're, um. Celebrating life. And part of that is probably [00:41:00] nature and nurture. You've probably been like this your whole life. 

I can imagine you as a little child being like that bubbly. But it's probably also nurture. You have learned, in your family, in your home, in your head, that this is the way you want to approach the world and your life. 

And I think that's a very interesting, phenomenon.  

[00:41:28] Joelle Kaufman: Thank you. Let me put a fine point on it. It was very clear to me from the point that I was very young and there are many blessings. in many ways, my life is incredibly blessed and like everybody else, I've had my share of trials and tribulations. 

That's life. We don't get through it unscathed. our challenges is where we grow. Our challenges are what make us who we are. So I don't wanna trade away my challenges. Were they pleasant? No. [00:42:00] Were they formative? Absolutely. So here's the fine point. We don't choose the pitch we get. We only choose the swing. 

So if you don't get to choose the pitch, the choice of swing is infinite. Choose the swing that works for you. I like sharing my story. My mother doesn't, I mean, she'll share it, but she doesn't. Um, I. Feel this compelling need to help other people make this journey easier. Other people wanna put cancer in the rear view mirror and never talk about it  

All perfectly fine, right? I choose my swing and you know what else? If I get tired of this swing, I can choose a new swing. I have the power. And so do you. We don't choose the [00:43:00] pitch. You wouldn't choose the pitches you are facing, Josie and Brad. You wouldn't choose the pitches you've faced and I wouldn't choose the pitches I faced, but they're the pitches we got. 

So you come back to the name of the book, why not try to crush the pitch? Worst comes to worse, you strike out and you swing again.  

[00:43:19] Do we have to pitch? 
 

[00:43:19] G van Londen (2): I would like to talk more, but we're reaching the end of the hour and, I wanted to ask you a question, and I think I'm gonna formulate it this way. Do you have to pitch? Many cancer survivors like you alluded to earlier? Tired. Another thing we have to do, another thing we should be doing, I should be. 

Here, there doing this, that grocery store, eating your nutritional labels forever, because who knows what's in the food and maybe it's hurting me, 

trying to gain control. which in the big picture is, both empowering but sometimes also [00:44:00] an illusion. And I'm not trying to give you a hard time. But I'm just trying to imagine, people who are listening and are maybe a little,  

[00:44:11] Joelle Kaufman: overwhelmed.  

[00:44:12] G van Londen (2): So do they have to pitch? 

[00:44:14] Joelle Kaufman: the pitch is going to happen. The pitch happens to you. You could choose, and many baseball players do to let the pitch go by. I don't want that pitch. And you may see the same pitch again, and you may ultimately have to figure out how to hit it. 

But it's okay to let the pitch go by. And if where you are right now is I don't wanna think about cancer, then don't. If where you are right now is I don't wanna worry about everything I eat, then don't. Right? Like the word should is the word I would like to eradicate from the dictionary. There is no should. 

Do what you want to do and what you can do [00:45:00] and do not judge yourself for whatever that is. I was blessed with a copious overflow of energy, and I am energized by having this conversation, by doing the work I do. That does not mean. Anyone else on earth is energized by it and it may not be what they want to do. 

That's fine. We are all here on our own journeys and we get to do it our own way. And if your way is sitting on the couch with your feet up, getting a back rub from someone who loves you or from a machine and watching Netflix for eight hours, 'cause you just don't feel like getting out that day. Have a mental health day, have a day. 

No judgment here.  

[00:45:50] G van Londen (2): Yeah, exactly. Thank you. Uh, you have a way of working with your words. Thank you. Yes. [00:46:00]  

[00:46:00] Joelle Kaufman: Well, thank you. It has been such a pleasure and honor to be here with you and with you, Brad, and to share what I hope will help more and more people find their way through whatever curve ball they happen to be seeing. 

Curve balls are constant. Just don't be surprised. Yes.  

[00:46:22] G van Londen (2): Thank you, Joelle. Brad, would you have any closing remarks for Joelle?  

[00:46:28] Joelle's Podcast 
 

[00:46:28] Brad Buchanan: I have a question about the name of her podcast, which has,  

An interesting name kicking Cancer's ass. the image of the podcast is great because it's got Joelle in pink boxing gloves, a really powerful image. the, pink breast cancer ribbon around her neck in the style of, a boxer's robe. As he or she's going into the ring to duke it out with a worthy opponent. 

Joelle is looking confident [00:47:00] and strong wearing these items. so yeah, I mean, I'm, first of all, struck by, the fact that you had breast cancer, which men can have it too, but it generally does. afflict women and the imagery of breast cancer is very feminine. 

It's the pink, it's the pink ribbon. But you've chosen a couple of very guy friendly metaphors. the baseball metaphors, of course are gonna appeal, to lots of men out there. And I think, men are particularly bad actually at hitting their curve balls. We're good at maybe hitting the fastball, you know? 

Mm-hmm. Uh, that's what we're bracing for all our lives is the aggressive confrontation, but then the curve balls, our timing sucks, and we have trouble with the curve to use that movie title there. And then of course, you know, the kicking cancers ass kick. Yep. this is the sort of aggressive posture that a lot of cancer, patients are encouraged to adopt.[00:48:00]  

That I think is, it was very important for me when I was going in to my treatments to feel like I was engaged in a violence struggle that I needed to muster all of my physical and mental and emotional resources to get through just that day. 'cause I was squeamish, I was scared. I was. confused and ashamed of being all of those things. 

So I did need to feel like a warrior, a boxer going into the ring.  

[00:48:27] Joelle Kaufman: I chose the name for all the reasons you said, but also because I am passionate that the conventional imagery of cancer is factually untrue, is a plot device and does not serve people who are going through it. You may not feel like a warrior. 

You may feel like you've been a dish rag, like I don't know what you'll feel like, and you might feel different on different days, but I'd like you to tap the [00:49:00] power within you, and that's what the podcast is about, is sharing stories and possibilities of the power within you. And the interesting thing, and you said this on your episode, Brad. 

Every single person I talk to says I would never choose cancer. And it changed my life. And it made my life richer in some way, right? So I wish we could get there without cancer. I really do. But again, we are made by our challenges. We are formed by our challenges. That's why they're called crucibles. And so whether or not you feel like a boxer or a dish rag. 

Tap into the power and strength you have the power and strength of your community and your team and take your place at the plate and approach the ball.  

[00:49:56] Brad Buchanan: Thank you for fielding that extra question, Joelle.  

[00:49:59] Joelle Kaufman: Thank you [00:50:00] for having me.