Selling your business: Culture, communication and legal risk

How much is your business really worth to a buyer and how much of that value sits in things that never appear on a balance sheet?

In this second instalment of our series on maximising business value ahead of a sale, Helen Goss from the Boyes Turner employment team is joined again by Rebecca Woolmington of HR Central. Where Part 1 looked at organisational structure, succession planning and getting contracts in order, this episode turns to the softer but no less scrutinised areas of a due diligence process: culture, engagement, communication, legal risk and post-sale transition.

Helen and Rebecca discuss how a prospective buyer forms a view of your culture (sometimes within minutes of walking through the door), why exit interviews and grievance patterns tell a story the C-suite doesn't always want to hear, and how open communication becomes critical and fragile the moment a sale is on the horizon. They also cover the practical legal risks that can quietly erode value, from minimum wage and holiday pay slip-ups to undocumented conversations, health and safety for hybrid workers, data security and AI policies.

Whether you're planning an exit in six months or five years, this episode is a practical guide to putting your best foot forward.

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Transcript

Welcome And Series Context

Helen Goss 0:03

Welcome to the Boys Turner Employment Law Pod. My name's Helen Goss, and I'm a member of the employment team. And in the Employment Law Pods, we look at recent legislation, interesting cases, or just matters that are coming across our desk that we think that you're going to find interesting. Now, today I've got my professional friend Rebecca Wilmington from HR Central. HR Central are an HR consultancy that we regularly work together with. So, Rebecca, welcome to the employment pod. Thank you, Helen. And can you just tell us a little bit about HR Central?

Rebecca Woolmington 0:45

Yes, thank you. HR Central has been going for 20 years now. We deal with outsourced HR for a variety of clients. We're industry agnostic. We deal with everything from recruitment through to termination and everything in between.

Helen Goss 0:57

So a short while ago, Rebecca and I did a pod talking about how to maximise the value of your business when you are planning on sales. So whether that's six months, a year, or even in an ideal situation where you've got the opportunity to get everything right in three or five years. So today we're going to be doing part two. Now, before I get into what we're going to cover, this is part of a series that we're managing with the corporate team. So on the website, we've got a fascinating case study by Rich Paulin, who worked with a business that considerably increased its value. And in fact, Rebecca, that's a business that you and I both worked on, wasn't it?

Rebecca Woolmington 1:48

Yes, that's right.

Helen Goss 1:49

It was such an interesting case study, and Rich sets out about how sometimes it's the boring admin. Can I just say that's his terminology, not mine, that creates that massive success and increase in value? Would you agree? Yes, I would. And a lot of business owners see it exactly the same way. I really recommend that you have a look on the website at Rich Paulin's case study, which is called Pre-Sale Preparation Protects Exit Value. Rich and Chris Dobson, a partner in our corporate team, have also done an interview in the podcast. And again, really interesting to get both their insights from the corporate side of matters. Now, Becca, last time we looked at getting the right organizational structure, if you remember. So, where are the gaps and do you have the right people in critical roles on the right terms? We looked at succession planning, which is a massive thing. A lot of businesses just don't ever really address their succession planning. And we looked about making sure that your contracts are up to date, including the handbook. So today, Rebecca and I thought it would be useful to look at culture, engagement, and communication, legal risks, and then post-sale planning.

Culture Buyers Can Actually Measure

Helen Goss 3:15

So now then, culture, engagement, and communication. So easy to say, and we all trot these terms out, don't we? But companies, all companies, as you say, in all sectors, seem to be quite bad at getting that right. Why, why do you think that is?

Rebecca Woolmington 3:37

I think a lot of times it's because the business owner has their own view on things and they don't think about how the business should present itself in its own entity. So the culture becomes how the manager or the business owner feels about life rather than it being a considered move to have a culture that supports people and moves the business forward.

Helen Goss 3:58

Yes, and I think that you'll find that every business will say, Oh, we've got a great culture, but actually, so much that goes on in the business would actually suggest otherwise, wouldn't it? How would a buyer assess a company's culture? So I've got a few suggestions, Becca, so it would be really interesting to get your view on this. So we we talked a little bit about management style. How does that potentially affect culture in particular?

Rebecca Woolmington 4:28

I think it has a massive impact on culture because people, as I said before, really they have their own view on things and they put their stamp on the business. I think it's really important to understand and be self-aware about what you are buying in relation to the management style. There are lots of psychometric tests that you can do in relation to understanding people's the way that people like to work. We do a lot of that with our management team, and we did that with the company that Rich was talking about too, to really understand where the gaps were so that we could fill those gaps prior to sale and to ensure that the team, the management team were working to the same goals.

Helen Goss 5:04

And and so that there was presumably some sort of balance then. So if someone's strong in a particular area but poor in another, that you've got some other team member who then balances out that skill set and the approach that they take.

Exit Interviews And Grievance Patterns

Helen Goss 5:20

Yeah. People sometimes poo-poo exit interviews, but I think you've said in the past that you think those are quite useful indications of what's going on in a business.

Rebecca Woolmington 5:29

Yes, it depends who who carries them out. I think if you're asking somebody internally to do it, so for example, if the manager who has been managed that team player for a long time does an exit interview, they're not going to have an honest response. So we tend to get involved at the exit interview level, and we are independent, so people do talk to us about what's going on, and then we can use that to sort of form the policy going forward. So we always say to people, look, you're telling us this in confidence, unless you tell us that you've stolen the crown jewels or that somebody's doing something really badly wrong. But we do incorporate what they tell us in the policies that we develop going forward so that there is continuous improvement for the company.

Helen Goss 6:06

So when there has been agreement that you can share what has been said to the management level, is there sometimes a bit of a shock when when the C-suite understands what people are saying as the reason for exit?

Rebecca Woolmington 6:21

Sometimes I think it's what we try to do is to identify a trend because what you what you don't want to do is to go back to someone and give feedback when it's a personal issue or there's a personality type situation. So we tend to look for trends and then go back to the the board with a a recommendation for change that's based on lots of feedback or or a couple of people's feedback, so there's a theme rather than it being personal.

Helen Goss 6:46

Yeah, no. And that presumably ties in also to disciplinaries and grievances. What can you tell from a a review of recent disciplinaries and grievances?

Rebecca Woolmington 6:57

You can tell a lot because if it's the same people that are always uh grieved or the same department, or the the management style isn't really conducive to making the change following a grievance or a disciplinary situation. Rinse repeat isn't really a good look when you're trying to feed that back to the board, so we have to encourage change to happen, or or things just fester and you just you end up with more of the same lots of wastage.

Helen Goss 7:22

Yeah, so again, presumably you're looking for that pattern or trend, aren't you? Yes, definitely. And and I have seen quite often that some paths lead to one person on a fairly frequent basis, don't they?

Rebecca Woolmington 7:34

They do. Yeah. They really do. Yeah. I think also we we encourage employee surveys as well, and you can do those confidentially so that you don't end up with people feeling they can't say what they want to say. Or you mean anonymously. Yes, sorry. Yeah, anonymously, yeah. So that we we can feed that back, and that's actually easier to feed back because it's usually en masse. You have the data, you can have comments as well, and we can be quite selective and tactful about how we feed that back to the board.

Helen Goss 7:59

And how do you find that people what what do you find they will do with the information or the trends or the patterns that you find? So are they keen to address them or do they just say, yeah, yeah, no, fine, and put it away in the drawer and then we never hear any more about it?

Rebecca Woolmington 8:16

I'm quite firm with the C-suite. Right. I'll come as a shock to you. I I tell them if they're not going to look at the results and not gonna act on them to not to do the the survey in the first place, because you can do more damage by asking people's opinions and ignoring it.

Helen Goss 8:30

Yes, that's a really, really strong point, actually, isn't it? Because people have gone to the trouble to actually write down what is causing them upset or anger or disappointment, and then nothing changes.

Rebecca Woolmington 8:43

That's right. And we see it the take-up drops off, and so it tells us whether we're actually doing the right thing in relation to the feedback.

Helen Goss 8:50

Do you mean the number of people completing the surveys?

Rebecca Woolmington 8:52

Yeah, so initially you'll see probably a take-up. On average, it's around 75% first time, because everybody wants to have their say. Yes, they're interested to see the changes that might happen. If those changes don't happen the next time you do a survey, which you know should happen quite regularly, they just say, Well, there's no point in me giving my time to this because nothing changed as a result last time. So you have to be really mindful of that.

Helen Goss 9:16

Yeah. And that's massive disappointment, then, isn't it, with the the employees? I was going to ask you this thought of gut instinct. So the feel of the business when you walk through the door, can is is that madness, or can you pick up on the vibes just walking into the business and understanding something about it in those initial stages?

Rebecca Woolmington 9:43

Yes, definitely. And I think the smaller the business, the more concentrated that feeling is. I think if you've got a lot of people milling around, it's quite difficult to understand the culture of a place until you get to know everybody and have worked with the business for a while. But if you walk into a small environment, nobody greets you, or everybody looks grumpy and bad-tempered, you can pick up quite quickly what the issues are. Yes. So the smaller the business, I think, the more pronounced it is.

Helen Goss 10:08

Yes, it's it's interesting you said that. We went to see a new client just a few weeks ago, and they manufacture very new technology, and it's really, really interesting stuff that they do. And when we got there, the person who was on reception was so keen for us to look at they had a video on repeats on the wall in reception, and he was so keen to tell us about it, and he said it's just so amazing, and it's so exciting. And if you ask So and To so to take you into the where they actually put this technology together, he said, It's amazing. And I was so impressed by his enthusiasm for what the business was doing, it was really, really telling that they were taking people with them on that journey. Yeah, it's infectious.

Rebecca Woolmington 10:56

You have the right people on the front desk. You you enter and it's it's a nice environment, it's friendly, it's welcoming. And you also have to have a culture of zero tolerance of poor behaviour.

Helen Goss 11:07

Yes.

Rebecca Woolmington 11:08

So as a business owner, I I don't tolerate that within my business, it's it's stamped out immediately if anybody has bad days, but if it carries on and it's unpleasant and makes life difficult for people to work in a positive environment, it's you have to address it.

Helen Goss 11:22

Yeah, yeah. No, exactly.

Values That Work And Shared Language

Helen Goss 11:24

And then we hear a lot, don't we, about company values. And I have sat through many workshops over my career where we talk about what are the values, what are the words that we're going to use to try and express the company values. And I know that people pay large sums of money to consultants to work on their values with them. What's your view about how people live their values within businesses?

Rebecca Woolmington 11:54

I always advise my clients rightly or wrongly to throw it out the window. Do you? Yeah. I think you shouldn't you shouldn't focus on fancy words. It's a little like your policies. If they all look lovely and fancy, but you're not following them, you're just going to trip up over them. So actually, it's better to have something that's meaningful, that that everybody buys into, that is reflective of how you operate, than it is to have fancy wording that just doesn't mean anything to anybody.

Helen Goss 12:18

No, no. You and I have talked about one of your concepts of a dictionary of behaviours. What is that and how does that work?

Rebecca Woolmington 12:27

It's it's something that we developed when I was working with scientists, and it became really obvious that I thought about things much differently to the way they did. They were real their attention to detail was amazing off the scale. I'm really high decisive, high influential. I just needed a yes or no in relation to an answer as to whether somebody was suitable for a position, where they'd want to write a thesis on the reasons why. So we had to agree in the middle. And so I developed this concept of having a dictionary of behaviours where there is common language within the business. So if you said something, everybody could interpret it. And there's usually three levels within a competency if you if you want to call it competency. So teamwork, for example, would be everybody who has to work as part of a team, but then you'd have more collaboration at senior level and then again at board level. So you could refer to it, and actually it really helps with appraisal conversations, it helps with internal comms, even with grievances and disciplinaries, because you're able to reference what you mean exactly, and everybody uses the same terminology and the same way of working. It's a common language, yes, and it's kind of building on the value set really. But I found it really useful. Then we also used disc profiles which had different coloured red, yellow, blue, green for each sort of area of your work preference, and I had red and yellow on the top of mine, so everybody knew that I was high decisive, so you just had to say yes and I would get on with it. Whereas I'd go to talk to scientists and see the blue and the yellow and think, right, I need to give them a bit more detail for them to be able to make the right decision. So it's just about understanding your workforce, it's understanding your colleagues, but to give everybody a common language is a really good way forward.

Helen Goss 14:01

That's fascinating. What about appraisals? Because I think most businesses, I mean, we do still come across some where appraisals are supposed to happen, but of course they don't happen, and it's always a point of grievance with employees because they want to understand how they're doing. And sometimes there's a little bit of a mismatch between how they think they're doing and perhaps how management thinks they're doing, but they still want to have that feedback on their performance. So, what does an appraisal tell you about a business?

Rebecca Woolmington 14:34

It tells me that there's an open communication style if those appraisals are taking place. I think it's a really healthy way of communicating. It means that it's not just about imparting information to an employee, it's about receiving feedback from that employee about how they're experiencing life within the business. Also, there's a really old case study that I worked on for a very well-known China company that had a lot of breakages, and they weren't talking to their employees about these breakages, they were just assuming that it was a problem. When they actually spoke to the employees at my request and asked them what they thought the problem was, they were hanging the cups up to dry on their handles, and of course that's where the breakages were. So the employees said, Well, just lay them flat rather than trying to hang them up, and you'll have less breakages. And that's exactly what happened. So I think it's not just about performance and telling somebody that they're wrong, it's actually talking and engaging the people who are doing the jobs on the shop floors or in the office environment so that their the benefit of their experience can be incorporated into other areas and and some appreciation of what they're doing because I don't think people come to work on average to do a bad job. They come to work because they want to do a good job. Yes. And I think if you're encouraging people to do that and having that open communication, it will all work towards a better outcome.

Helen Goss 15:50

Yes, that's that's really interesting, actually, isn't it? But of course, so many managers will go to someone else's appraisal and do all the talking, which I always find fascinating because really they should be doing all the listening. Yes, yes.

Rebecca Woolmington 16:03

And I think that if I had a pound for every manager who rolled their eyes when I mentioned appraisals, I wouldn't have to work. Yeah. And I don't think it has to be a very complex process, it is a conversation. And whether there's even any documented outcome from that is arguable. I think it's probably best if there is. Yes. But as long as one of one of the people in the room makes a note of what's been said or even just record it, so you can have that recording going forwards. But I think the most important piece is to have the communication and to have that conversation rather than having a very verbose system in place that nobody wants to follow. I completely understand that.

Communication And Retention During A Sale

Helen Goss 16:40

So I just wanted to move on now to communication, which is where everybody, I think, gets one out of ten from their employees about communication. So whether that's communication with employees on just on a day-to-day basis, but also potentially in relation to the future of the business and big things that are going to happen. What is the risk then if your communication is that bad as a business?

Rebecca Woolmington 17:10

I think you don't keep people engaged. People can't do their best work. And actually, they might have ideas on how to contribute to the business if you've communicated the plans for the business. I think if you keep everything in isolation, how are people ever going to know what they can contribute for the good of the business? It doesn't have to be verbose, it doesn't have to be every day. But I think regular catch-ups, regular meetings, team meetings to discuss, and also about there's so many people now that are working hybrid. They're working from home. They don't engage with people in the office like we used to every day in the office Monday to Friday. So I think it's around about keeping people engaged, but bringing them together as a team so that you get to understand how other people work within the business, so that you can do your best work as a team.

Helen Goss 17:54

Yeah. And of course, particularly when you're going through a potential sale of the business, employees get very jittery, don't they? They do. And they worry about what they know, what they don't know, what you're hiding, what you're not telling them. And you've got that risk really of people leaving because they're so uncertain about what's happening. And of course, it's always the people that you don't want to leave, who go, and then you potentially have the people who stay are the ones that perhaps it might not have been heartbreaking had they actually gone. So I just really wanted to touch on retention incentives. That's something that the businesses you work with use much.

Rebecca Woolmington 18:37

Some of them do, yes. And bonuses are obviously the obvious retention. Some of our clients play those bonuses forward, so they allocate an amount and say if you stay for another two years, you can have that money at the end of that time, or they give them share options. I think for most of my clients though, and I'd probably be shouted down for saying this, I don't think money is the main objective. If people have paid fairly and they get a bonus occasionally to say thank you if the business is doing really well, I think most people want to feel part of something special. They want to feel that they've contributed something, that their contribution has helped in some way. People get a lot of job satisfaction out of being part of something and being part of a team. A thank you and a regular thank you and being recognised is often, in my view, better than money. And some of the scientists that we work with, they certainly didn't want bonuses, though they wanted to be recognised for their technical capabilities.

Helen Goss 19:32

For their expertise. I mean, I know you and I have talked uh many times about as well the business looking to create things that are desirable to employees as well. So we've talked about paying yes at the right level so that people feel that they're at market rate and they're getting what their skill set is worth. But it's also flexibility, being open and understanding to issues that they may have, whether that's work issues or even home issues. It's about listening. You talked about the China company, that they actually listened to why there were so many breakages from the people who knew why there were. It's again, I think you talked about the right culture of trust between management employees, it's developing their careers. So I think that's important, isn't it? Through the appraisal system, making sure they get the right training.

Rebecca Woolmington 20:30

Yes.

Helen Goss 20:30

And then I suppose developing their career path.

Rebecca Woolmington 20:34

Yes. Um in my business specifically, I encourage people to work on the things that they like working on. So if there's something they like doing and that piece of work comes in, I'll allocate it to them. But I have to know that to be able to do that. So it is important to get to know your staff and understand their aspirations and what they like doing. Obviously, there's things that they have to do that they might not like to do. We can't all do things that we like all day long. But I think just recognising that makes them much more open to helping you when there is a situation and they will be flexible. It's about having an open, proper, grown-up conversation with your teams and understanding what their pressure points are because if somebody's not performing, to go straight to disciplinary isn't often the way forward. It's about understanding why they're they may be um under par and being supportive of that so that when you need support as a business owner, they'll step up and be flexible in return. Absolutely.

Legal Risk From Pay To Tribunals

Helen Goss 21:31

Just wanted to talk about legal risk. There are a lot of businesses that develop a legal risk that perhaps they don't need to just because of an inadvertent error. So we hear about the naming and shaming of companies who are not paying the minimum wage, not because that's necessarily their intention, but because there's a blip over the correct holiday pay or the rates, etc. Have you had Experiences of that with the companies.

Rebecca Woolmington 22:03

Yes, we have. And I think people aren't necessarily, but people, business owners aren't necessarily monitoring the employment law changes or updates to salary amounts that need to be paid. There's a lot of changes taking place at the moment. And I think business owners are a little weary of it. And actually it's knowing where to go to find the information that's accurate and precise enough for you to implement within your business whilst you're doing an operational day job, whilst you're managing the team, whilst you're looking at sales in a very different and difficult environment, as many of us are as business owners. So there's a lot going on for business owners right now, and I think they can inadvertently slip into a problem if they're not having the right advice.

Helen Goss 22:42

Yes, I think that's a really good point actually, because there's so much information about the Employment Rights Act coming out at people. It's hard then for them to pick out the points that they actually need to take action on rather than note in their knowledge. So I think that's a really good good point. The other thing is that a company who is looking to buy you will want to look at your potential tribunal liabilities. So they will look at your disciplinaries and your grievances and any investigations that you've got ongoing. And it's really boring of the lawyers, and I can't apologize for it because if there are notes of conversations, it's always going to be more useful than no notes of any conversation. Absolutely.

Rebecca Woolmington 23:35

But I think it's about protecting yourself as a business owner too. So it's not just for sale, it's for day-to-day business operation. If you have a proper note of what's been said and agreed by both parties, retrospectively that's so much easier to deal with than having a oh, I think they said this kind of rhetoric when you're trying to resolve a problem. And also I think it shows prospective buyers that you are actually having those meaningful conversations with people and they are documented and it's a good it's a good habit to get into.

Helen Goss 24:04

And it's protection for the business. Absolutely. Because the employee will have taken their notes or their own covert recordings, and whilst you can go blue in the face telling them they shouldn't do that, they'll still do that. Health and safety compliance. Now that's something that you're focusing on at HL Central at the moment, isn't it?

Rebecca Woolmington 24:23

It is. We've outsourced it, but we have a number of trusted advisors that we give that work to. But they also work in conjunction with us in relation to management training, which is something that we do. So it we're just sort of trying to make it all joined up, really. So health and safety shouldn't really be in isolation, it should be around training and educating people and making sure that people have the right skill to work within a business, especially if it's a warehouse environment or something where they need to really be focusing on the right skill level. You know, driving a fortift truck, for example, need to make sure they've got the right documentation in place, that it's recorded properly, that refresher training takes place. So it it sort of almost fits in with what we're doing as an HR consultancy.

Helen Goss 25:02

And of course, where people are working on a hybrid basis, you've also got to ensure that there is health and safety from their home office, haven't you? Yes, yes, absolutely.

Rebecca Woolmington 25:11

It along with insurances as well. So they have to make sure that they've got the right insurance in place. But if somebody falls over at home because they're using an ironing board as a desk or they've got a bad back as a result of not having the correct chair set up, you're still liable if they're working from home. So you need to protect yourself as a business and have a proper DSE assessment.

Data Security AI Policies And HR Systems

Helen Goss 25:30

Absolutely. And then just quickly touch on data privacy. I mean, we've all got to comply with GDPR requirements. But even basic things, I know you've talked about protecting your confidential information and even down to where do you store that information, who can access it? Because those can be quite problematic issues, can't they?

Rebecca Woolmington 25:53

Yes, they can. And I've seen a lot of cyber attacks recently with some small businesses who don't think they're going to be a target and they've had ransoms for you know half a million pounds. Gosh. And that's shocking, isn't it? It is shocking and actually unexpected and very close to home. So I think having a proper HR information system where everything's locked down, you have proper security in place, A makes life easier to find information when you need it. But I think also employees like to know that their data is safe and that they can access it when they need to. I think it shows that you're committing to having employees and making sure that things are done correctly. I think also from an AI perspective, AI is with us to stay. Yes. It's about having the right policies in place and making sure that employees understand their commitment to that, so they're not putting confidential information out into the World Wide Web, that there is a documented way of managing data within the business. But having that HR information system is key, in

Post-Sale Transition And Knowledge Transfer

Rebecca Woolmington 26:49

my opinion.

Helen Goss 26:49

Then post-sale transition planning, I think that that's really about, again, a clear communication plan, isn't it?

Rebecca Woolmington 27:00

Yes. I think you have to communicate when you're going to sell, during the sale process, and and what's going to happen to those employees after the sale. Because actually, if you're leaving as a business owner, you might not feel that you're as invested in the business after you've left. It might be that you have a tie-in that you have to stay for a couple of years, which may make some employees feel happier about staying. But it's still about having that conversation so that everybody knows that they can stay exactly as they are, invariably, unless there are big changes. And if those big changes are taking place, to communicate those so that people have a choice. They can either stay and go with the regime as it is or as it planned, or they can make a decision to leave. But I think having those proper conversations with people, if somebody is going to leave and you have a good relationship with them, you can usually negotiate and say, Well, could you just stay for a little bit longer and let's get this over the line, maybe give them a bonus or incentive to stay. I think it's just about proper open communication all the way through the process.

Helen Goss 27:55

It can create all sorts of problems that perhaps don't even exist. Exactly. Because people don't know what's happening. And I think that also relates to knowledge transfer, doesn't it? That's an important consideration.

Rebecca Woolmington 28:08

Yes, I think we touched on succession planning last time, but it's it's ever more important when you're selling a business to really make sure you've got the right skills in place, not only because the prospective buyers will want to see that, I think it's around people feeling secure that they have got a job going forwards because the business maybe isn't going to change.

Helen Goss 28:26

Yeah. So it's that clarity of what comes next, essentially. Yes. And sometimes the business doesn't, especially the business that's been acquired, doesn't necessarily know if they're a small business taken into a much larger business, they may not know, but it's to be honest and share what you do know, and presumably to go and talk to the the new owners and try and get that clarity from them.

Rebecca Woolmington 28:52

Yes, and encourage them to get involved in the conversations. We've been involved with a lot of business sales where, as the HR representative, we've gone to some of the meetings to answer those questions and to just check the temperature of what's going on. Yeah. But encourage both parties to attend. So the people who are buying, there's a management team that are buying, and the existing management team, so that there is that um united front for employees to ask questions and to to seek information when they need it.

Helen Goss 29:19

Yeah. Excellent.

Key Takeaways And Where To Learn More

Helen Goss 29:21

Thank you, Rebecca. So I think what all of this tells us is that it's really important for businesses that are looking to sell themselves, to put their best foot forward, to plan, to implement whatever steps they identify as being necessary, to communicate where you can and to just check your processes and corporate governance at all stages. And in fact, we have prepared an exit guide for this due diligence, which is on our website. So do have a look because it's a really good starting point to try and understand next steps. We've also got part one. So Rebecca and I did part one on how essentially HR strategy drives business sale value and the case study by Rich and the interview by Rich Paulin and Chris Dobson. Rebecca, thank you so much. Your insights are so interesting. We could talk forever, so thank you so much for your input.

Rebecca Woolmington 30:27

Thank you for having me, Helen.

Helen Goss 30:29

Pleasure. Thanks for listening to the Employment Law Pod. If you'd like to check out more interviews in this series, then please do go to the Boys Turner website. You can also follow wherever you listen to your podcasts. Goodbye, everyone.