Are Trails Changing Deer Habits? - Wildlife Pressure w/ BHA Ethan Dreissigacker

Dustin Martin and Connor Schellong sat down with Ethan Dreissigacker to talk about something we’ve been seeing more and more here in Vermont — the rapid growth of mountain biking and hiking trails, and what that might be doing to wildlife.

Ethan brings a unique perspective with his background in competitive skiing and time with the United States Biathlon Team, along with his work in conservation through Backcountry Hunters & Anglers (BHA).

From our side, we share real, boots-on-the-ground observations from tracking and hunting whitetails — changes in deer movement, pressure in areas that used to feel remote, and what we’re seeing during critical times like winter.

This episode isn’t about pointing fingers — it’s about having an honest conversation around access, recreation, and how we balance that with the long-term health of wildlife and the land.

We also dive into:

• The impact of year-round recreation on deer behavior
• Winter pressure and survival for whitetails
• Where BHA stands on trail expansion, land access, and conservation
• What’s happening specifically here in Vermont
• How we can do a better job managing land moving forward

We wrap it up the best way we know how — with a story from the woods.

If you care about hunting, public land, and the future of wildlife, this is a conversation worth listening to.

Transcript

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that's the thing that I think is hard to understand if you are just coming at it from a trail user or builder standpoint, it's it's not the physical trail itself. It's the fact that once you build that trail, X number of people are gonna walk down that trail Every single day. It might be five, it might be 500 depending on where you are. And that's What has the impact. And the thing I sometimes struggle with, and I think it's kind of what has to be figured out is what is that level of traffic that suddenly makes that trail not a trail in the woods, but like development. We're gonna do this, right? We're rolling. Alright. Welcome in everyone to another Northwoods White Tails podcast. It's been a while. It's been a while. I'm your host today, Dustin Martin with my, co-host, Connor S. Long here. Connor, how was your winner? Winner is long. I'm glad to see some sunshine. The snow is melting now and it's nice to be outside again. it is. It's really sunny out. There's sure is. Shame. We're stuck in here, but exactly. You been up to mill and knock it at all? Not yet. No. No, not yet. No. All, no. Shed hunting though? Shed hunting. Yeah. Shed, shed hunting is on the mind right now. that's right. Keeping me busy. good. we want to welcome our, guest here, Ethan. Dry zacker. How Dries Gagger. Great. Got it. Dry Gagger. I'm glad you pronounce it that one. No, it's the amount of times I practice that. welcome Ethan. awesome to be here. yes. Thank you for jumping on. so I met you, or at least a brief, introduction at the Back Country Hunter in anglers here at Johnson Wool Mill. Yeah. Um, that Event was in December. Great event. Yeah, the storytelling event. Storytelling, we got to hear different stories and just whether it was hunting stories, what got us to the outdoors, it was a really cool event. and we wanted to invite you onto a podcast and just talk about, who you are, what got you into the outdoors, your connection with backcountry hunter and anglers, especially as it connects with Northwoods White tails and everything that you guys see is like exactly what we're striving for. So we wanted to bring you on, and so welcome and, yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I totally agree too with the shared mission here. I think the, we'll get more into the BHA stuff, I think probably as we get into this conversation, but I think as b it's always been this question of how BHA applies to the east,'cause it came outta the west and it's a lot to talk about like public land and that stuff. but when did that get pushed towards the East? I feel like I just started hearing about that more in the last five years's. Good. That's a good question. I started getting involved probably 10 years ago. Okay. and it had been, the New England chapter had existed for some time before that, so it's been around a little while then? It's been around, yeah. That's great. Yeah. So let's jump into who are you, who is Ethan and what got you into the outdoors? obviously your skiing background was the one that really caught my eye, but let's hear your entire story. yeah. So I Grew up in Morrisville, town over for me. Yeah. Rival school. Yeah, same grade actually, yeah. Yep. yeah, it turns out we had a lot of mutual friends, but just two parallel tracks, That's right. but yeah, I was an athlete. I was into skiing, cross country skiing, for, I probably learned how to ski about the time I learned how to walk. my parents were high level athletes. They're rowers actually, but just like sports and a, being outside outdoors. And active was just how I was raised. So no one in my family hunted though. my grandfather did a little bit, but it was not something that I, he really shared with me. so I didn't get into that until high school. but I was outside, I was skiing, we CrossCountry skiing. You do a lot of other physical training, so biking, running, just everything. Totally. And then in middle school I was like, got into birding, alright. And I was like, I was real into that, maybe even before middle school I was like. The little kid that was going to like bird camp. Okay. down at VINs, in now did they teach you like the very beginnings how to shoot a shotgun? The safety of that or no? No. this Is like bird watching. Oh, plus you're out there with by nose, glass trees, bird identification cardinals. No, I was one of these, I was a bird nerd. Like I was out there with my list of all the birds I'd identified. Wow. I'll checking'em off, checking them off, that sort of thing. this is when I was like, like fifth, sixth, seventh grade. Nice. and then I was like, I was getting into tracking like I. Hunting wasn't like really on my radar. But I was like going out in the woods and like following snowshoe hair until I, Hey, that's a good way to do it. There. Caught up to him or realized that I could, I'd gone on four loops already and I cut'em off. nice. and just whacking, like I, there's, there's a property owner, like the neighbors behind my parents' house had a thousand acres and I would just go out there and get lost, Yeah. and I had friends that hunted and I think I was intrigued by it all, but it was like the forbidden fruit. Totally. yeah. And then I got into biathlon, cross country skiing and shooting, and that was honestly the introduction of firearms to my family. Okay. And, So I got really into that. I ended up getting both my sisters into that. Really? Both of them went on to race in the Olympics for biathlon. Wow. I never did, but they owe it all to me. Wow. So I got'em into it. where'd probably start from, I don't hear a lot of guys doing biathlon. so at the time the only opportunity was at the Ethan Allen Firing Range. So the military training facility in Jericho. the National Guard had a bath on team, and then there's a civilian club that used the facility too. Okay. So I'd drive, my parents would drive me once a week and then eventually I would drive myself once a week to Jericho to do that. Nice. now, there's bathon range in crafts bury, and the sports has grown as I've been in it in the state, but got into bathon and then that was the gateway to the hunting. I think I. Somehow managed to convince my like, anti-gun, maybe anti-hunting mom to buy me a 12 gauge shotgun Right when I was like 16. I don't know how I did it. And then I started trying to shoot those snowshoe hair that I was tracking around in the woods. Started bringing a few back with you. Yeah. who needs a hound dog? When a but that was like, that was how I started hunting was like in the woods. Just like chasing grouse and rabbits with a shotgun or a 22. Wow. Yeah. got really into it. I think maybe my senior year in high school I had like a family friend who was like, you are gonna get into deer hunting, Here's a 7,600 with Peep sites on it. There you go. Here's a stack of Benoit books. Yeah. This is your everything. This is your path, Yeah. and so I started playing around with that and I'd mostly just follow tracks blindly in the woods. I didn't have really any mentorship or anything there. Hey, that's the best way to learn right there. Yeah. So I was just, I was spending time in the woods. went to college and that's where it really, like things kicked off. Like I got plugged in with some really good mentors, got involved with the hunting and fishing club in college and like Cool. Just snowballed from there. Yep. got to the point where like my hunting passion was compromising my ski racing passion, I hear ya. yeah, so that's, it's a funny story. I think it was like literally the first night I was at college, it's like freshman orientation and this guy that had been a. A friend of my sister who had gone to the same school, sent me a message and was like, Hey, like your sister said you wanted to go hunting some while you're here. We're going goose hunting tomorrow. if you want come meet me at my place to give you this address at four 30 in the morning. First morning I woke up in college. Everyone else was like staggering home from the party and I was like riding my bike in full camera with a shotgun on my back across campus. And funny, met up with these guys that I like, I don't think I had ever met before. In the dark at four 30 in the morning and went out and shot a bunch of geese in cornfield. There you go. So you're gonna make a group of friends, you're gonna find a right opera shotgun at four 30 in the morning on campus. Yep. Exactly. Yeah. And that, like it's, that was one of the things that really hooked me into hunting too, was that sort of like tribe mindset. It was like, you got this group of friends and you're sharing the experience and no, definitely someone would get a deer and we'd all be like staying up late cutting it up on the Living room floor of some Total dump pocket compartment. Yeah. You know that, so that's amazing. Yeah. but I'm sure you guys fed off each other is if one of your buddies is out there and he is having luck and it makes you guys wanna get out there too and do the same thing, I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure it's no different than ski racing too. There's like a competitive side to it in a way. Exactly. It's such a natural transition. Yeah. For like a high level athlete, a hundred percent into it. That's exactly what I found, Yeah. From ski racing into tracking a deer, it's, one-on-one, Yeah. you're focused on that track, especially with tracking. I don't know how much the competitive nature helps with sitting, right? Oh, exactly. Exactly. Yes. But, yeah, so that's, that's how I got into it, and then I got into BHA and like more sort of the conservation side of things. I think just because I, I don't know, I think part of it was like getting really into the hunting, like later at in life. When I had more like the perspective, it helped me jump straight to the sort of like hunter conservationist thing versus Hunter. Yeah. So would you mind touching on the BHA? Yeah. Let, just to let's talk about the back country hunter and anglers. So you, like obviously got into hunting, at all, following snowshoe hares and then, leaving campus with some friends you never met before and then, goose hunting. Yeah. but then obviously conservation is big for you. and you that made you want to join the backcountry hunters and anglers. Yeah. yeah, so I got into it based on the issue really. It was based on the issue of trails. Okay. And and in recreational development.'cause that was my thing was outdoor recreation. I was using these trails. I was, I was building trails in the summer. Totally. but. Be as I got into hunting and I was, I spent time hunting like around trails. The same trails that I would then go and ride, bike a bike on. Or go for a run on. Yep. I think I just started to notice that impact That you, that as hunters we notice the impact. That's literally what we're out there doing. We're out there obsessing over the impact our presence has on wildlife. And trying to minimize it and trying to leverage it. However, but like you aren't necessarily doing that otherwise. And so all of a sudden it's these two big things, passions in my life, came together around that issue. And at the time, the state of Vermont had just launched the VOR rec, Vermont Outdoor Recreation Economic Collaborate, something. Yes. And I had just joined BHA. I know I saw it on social media or whatever. I was like, whatever, I'll join. And then I got an email from Vermont BHA that was like, Hey, come out to one of these Vorax sessions and basically be a hunter voicing our opinion about recreational development in the state. So I got into that and I was like, oh man, this is like the thoughts I've been starting to have. Wow. And this is like an opportunity to get involved. So that's there is when I really dove into the back country hunters and anglers stuff. Yep. and since that conservation sort of mindset has evolved into just more general, like land conservation, land use, all of that is something I'm really passionate about now, but it started with that trail thing. and it helps having someone like yourself who likes to hike and bike and use these trails for recreation as well as hunting. You see the impacts of. Of what it could do if you have all these trail networks in a block of woods somewhere when it comes to hunting. Yeah. And I think I started looking around the room and being like, oh, there's not that many hunters in the hunting room That are also as excited as I am about like other to forms of recreation. And then like you look around the, like the skiing, the mountain biking rooms and you're like, wow. there's not that many other people here who are like real passionate about hunting. And I feel like by having that crossover, there's you kinda see both sides. Exactly. I feel like I'm seeing stuff that other people are not seeing here. Definitely. I feel like most hunters, they don't like the skiers and they don't like the bikers and hikers and all that stuff that are in the. Chunk of woods there hunting. I think that's important too. to talk about that. It's like we, we don't wanna sound hypocritical because as you're saying, you're out there mountain biking, you're using these trails, but at the same time you're, you are also a huge hunter and you're seeing the impact. So it's, and you don't want to say one thing and go against exactly what you're saying as far as There's like a fine line there. There's a fine line and what you're saying that it's either you're on, the left or the right, right here. And really we don't want to take away, like we want people to be outside. We don't want to take that away from people. We don't want people inside on their phones like doing nothing. You should be able to go outside, enjoy the nature, everything around you. That's exactly what we're all striving for, is just how can we make that connection what's the best practice here that we can do Right to You don't wanna love it to death ex. Exactly. Yeah. And I've been hearing that a lot as I've been diving into this. You don't wanna love it to death. Yeah. and, I guess I can dive in to this one scenario that I see in our town. So Joey, who's on our, Joey Davis, who's on our Northwoods team, him and I have been talking about this a lot. just recently. We, there is a lot of mountain bike. Trails going up in our hometown. And like it's all, I'm all about it. I mountain bike all the time. But it's to the point of is there greed in it when you're wanting to make all of the woods in our town mountain bike trails. And then at what point is there an impact of being like, sure we want people outside, but there's also more to the woods than just mountain bike trails than being outside. there's actually an impact on the wildlife around you and him and I being huge hunters and literally hunting these woods our entire lives. We all of a sudden are seeing like. No deer in this exact area where we used to always see deer. Yeah. The balance there. I definitely want to hit on, because I don't wanna sound like, I don't want mountain biking. It's just, I feel like there's a point where there, it's gotta be controlled. Yeah. And I think, I think the mountain biking thing, it's and I feel when, whenever I talk about this issue, I feel like it's easy to start picking on the mountain biking. I Exactly. It's, but it is, and I think there's some reasons behind it. one, the mountain bike trails are single track trails, right? I think there's this idea that they're a low impact thing because it's not like this big wide trail. It's a narrow trail. That's part of it. The other piece of it is that like when you're mountain biking, especially on a lot of these new trails, like you're not out there. For the experience of that the forest has to offer. Like you're not out there to See wildlife, that sort of thing. Like you're out there for the dirt and the terrain. Yeah. And that's fine. But I think because of that, it just means that it's gonna be like when you're mountain biking, you're not aware of your, like what the impact your presence has. And it's gonna be really hard to be,'cause you're trying to not crash into a tree total. You're in the moment. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And that just means that when there has to be more planning that goes into where those trails go, basically. Definitely. I think I'm not familiar with. Your area and whatnot. Are these biking trails in National Forest, are they on private land? Is it So conservancy land of some sort or? Yeah. Great question. there's, right now it's all on private land, but it's o it's huge parcels of land Okay. That are like open for any use. It's not, it's not like it just like someone's backyard Okay. Type of thing. But it, and some of it's like conserved with land trusts and then there are some that are, that they're turning into land trusts. and actually that's a great point. Is that, like this one area, sure. The land Trusts had just bought this parcel of land, so no one really would develop on it, but the first thing that they did is put a hiking trail on it. It's sure, yes, that's great. Like we want people to go out there. But immediately those woods that like. There, there had been plenty of wildlife living within there. There's all of a sudden a hiking trail that goes up and looping all throughout the entire thing those critters deer bear, whatever is living there Is not gonna just stay right there. Especially when someone brings their dog in and, walks right through there. And it's not just one person, it's a heavy trafficked area. and that's the, it's, right? Because there's a point where like a mountain bike trail system sees enough traffic that it is, it's no different than a Dollar General or a housing development. And I think the problem is like, where is that point And there's A lot of research into wildlife and the disturbance caused by trails. And one of the interesting things that people have started to do is you map a buffer. So like you have a trail map and then you say, all right, I want, it's different for different types of wildlife. I wanna say for deer it's a hundred yards or something like that. if someone walks down a trail, the deer within a hundred yards, either side of that trail are going to be displaced. Yes. And for bear it's 500 yards, which 500 yards in the woods around here is like long ass way. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It's like over the next mountain. Oh yeah. Some cases, and so you can start mapping those buffers and people are starting to do that. But that's the sort of thing that I think we need a lot more of. Definitely. And I just feel like there needs to be a lot more awareness of that exact fact right there. Yeah. Because I don't like the normal person that, that does not hunt. Like a lot of those people that you're talking about growing up, like that's, they're not thinking about. And like the impacts of that. It's okay, great. We saved like this piece of forest from, being developed. Like we can keep it wild, but it's like, what is wild? Because it's everything that was living there. It's not a wild place. Like it's, there's a trail going in. There's still touched at that point. it's touch. And it's being fragmented in all of these areas. if you think about Sure. we're, there's land trusts all over the place and we're saving buildings going up, but it's still fragmenting all around the green mountains and, That's what I'm nervous about is because it's sure. The, the state forests are gonna stay, stay wild, but it's all the pieces that's only a small part of the state. Exactly. the state forests are gonna stay wild as long as we. Keep advocating for that. totally. Exactly. Totally. and, that is one thing that I heard in a podcast that you were in recently is they Vermont? I had not heard about this until I listened to it, that they are trying to connect to single track from Massachusetts to Canada through Vermont. Yeah. So it's the Mont Trail. Yeah. it's been a big project. a lot of things about it that are like kinda interesting and could be cool. And there are a lot of things about it that are like, boy, I hope that somebody's thinking about this. Oh, exactly. Yes. So that's, and BHA has been very involved with, providing comment.'cause they're building it. I mean it's in the Green Mountain National Forest, there's a whole bunch of new single track bike trail projects that are in this, in the forest that are happening now, that are associated with that Vet Mont build out. so they wanna run from Massachusetts line all the way up to Green Mountain Spine. Is that roughly the area? Basically, yeah. I don't know the exact details of it. They say it's like 400 and something miles of trail. So it's longer than the long trail is. So it's doing more than just That's right. That, but the idea is to connect lots of existing trail systems. And to have huts so people can stay in'em. I think probably the most intriguing, positive thing that could come from that is that it could help conserve land. You look at the long trail conserves, 20, 30,000 acres of land, and it's just this one trail that goes through it. And if you're looking at Onyx along the Green Mountains or you get north of the Green Mountain National Forest on the long trail, like areas up here through Eden, Lowell, like a lot of these big chunks of public land along the spine, it's the, I'm spacing on the name. It's the Long Trail that owns'em. The Green Mountain Club. Green Mountain Club. Yep. And that's land you can hunt on. And like I know a lot of people that go track bucks on that land. Totally. and it exists there because of the long trail. Yes. And so I think there's this argument that something like the Valmont Trail can do that. Definitely. I think it's a legit argument. Yep. I think the challenge is just On the ground how it actually gets built out. How do they build a trail like that? Is it by hand or is it a mini excavator or? A lot of it's mini excavator. Yeah. most of the mountain bike trails now are mini excavator. and I think the issue is just like when you're building a mountain bike trail with a mini excavator, you're just, you're looking at the terrain and the dirt. that's exactly, you follow the terrain for the most part. And you can look at this landscape level, Vermont has Vermont conservation design, right? It's these mapping tools as supposed to identify wintering deer, wintering areas and sensitive areas. You can look at all that stuff on a landscape level. But, the end of the day, like when your boots on the ground making a trail, like we know as hunters that there's a lot that those maps miss, right? Definitely. Oh yeah. And I think like the wintering area is a good topic, right? especially as like bigger blocks of forest gets fragmented, like deer aren't, deer are wintering in much smaller pockets of wintering cover. Yes. That aren't necessarily gonna show up when they do this sort of 10,000 foot view, and we're all of a sudden seeing that, like those yards changing as all of these different houses, like on a smaller scale are going in and then You're seeing them move. and that's a kind of a big to another topic. you get a bunch of develop, you get a housing development goes in, fragments things up. Yes. And maybe there's five acres of softwood that those deer are wintering in a lot of food and'cause they've got ag taken out, ag and backyards and gardens, like it works. So you can have a pretty good sized group of deer that spends the winter there. But then it's oh, that little softwood area would be a sweet place to build a trail. exactly. Yeah. Yes. Because it's right adjacent to, this housing development easier. It's not way up on the mountain, it's right down low. And so you have this stuff taking place like on a small scale. I think it flies under the radar. of the like large scale planning. And that's the stuff that we all see and get fired up about. Definitely. And yeah, so that's, that's exactly it. Yeah. Is, that's one thing Joey and I were really talking about is because. one comment, actually a good friend of mine made like he, he's a huge mountain biker, and he goes, oh, I'm like, we needed to, we need to make more trails. Like we're, and I'm like, more trails. You just made all of these trails, like all through the, this, of course it's right in the middle of where I grew up hunting with like my honey hole and everything, and I'm seeing bikers going by. I'm like, what the hell? but, and he's more trails. And he goes, yeah, but they're like, we're in the woods. Like the deer are out there. But it's are they? And that's exactly what I want to hit on and bring awareness to is people want more and they want more trails and connecting more trails and then all of a sudden when they, they're, they have the one track mind and they're not thinking about where they're actually making those trails. And we need to bring awareness for instance, the ow select board of no, don't put these trails in this one area because it is a massive deer yard. Yeah. If you scatter these deer,, I don't know where they would go like for the amount of deer that yard in this area. They've already been scattered enough and people are not gonna follow the rules if you say no one go in there, during the winter or something. Yeah. if there's a trail there, people are gonna want to go on it. And it's just going to, be the worst thing. And so it, I don't know. It's, that's the part that I don't know. Yeah. No, it's, it, I mean I have a lot of interesting conversations with friends that are, trail builders and trail users and you see it, I think I definitely get, sometimes I get this impression, it's oh, you just don't want to trail there because that's, you wanna hunt there. And it's And then I think a good example of why that's not really the whole picture is when it's like I had someone be like, oh, so if we do like a seasonal trail closure and we like have this, we build these mountain bike trails and we just close'em during rifle season, is that gonna make you happy? Basically? Basically. And I'm like, no, because the deer aren't there exactly right anymore. Yeah. like it's not just about Yeah. And I don't really quite, I always come back to just if there's more crossover between these user groups and more than more people that understand the back and forth, like it has to come from like the bottom up Yeah. Because when it comes top down, then it just looks like these, like regulations and regulations are like a framework to work around. It's a super tough balance to, to come up with an answer their solution there. Yeah. being as hunters, we're really familiar with regulations, right?'cause our, honestly, like our, the impact that hunters have on wildlife is regulated Yes. Based on science. Yes. That is not the case. for mountain bikers, right? Yeah. It's free range Farm whenever they want. Yeah. So I do want to say one thing is the ow Mountain Bike Club does do a good job of recognizing that and, but even though exactly what you were saying, it's oh, we close these trails during hunting season. they are aware of that and actually make sure that they actually put rope across these trails saying no, like these trails are closed during hunting season. Do not go on them and stuff. So they are aware of it, but I think it's more of a bigger, the bigger impact that we Yep. Really want to spread the word about, but that's, it's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Especially the skiing aspect. If it's in like a deer yard just blowing deer out all over the place, again, as you're going in, it's like you feel like we're just talking about the mountain bikers. It's more than that. it's, you're more vulnerable that time of year and especially, and then all of a sudden you get into the back country skiing. Oh yeah. And that's a whole nother level right there. and it's especially the way that, there's different ski resorts where the corporations are buying ski resorts and making people not really want to ski there, so they're going right into the back country to get away from the crowds of people. maybe I'm a pessimist. on this, I like, I feel like the back country skiing in a lot of places, it's like kind of turning into like front country skiing without lifts. it's like when you start having like cleared glades and marked and signed back backcountry ski trails. Yeah. Okay. you lose that backcountry feel for me. Yeah. For me, like I love doing go backcountry skiing. But it's it's the adventure of discovering that natural gladd run in the woods then makes you feel like you're the first person to find it. And like the next person that finds it's gonna feel the same way. And that's what makes it cool, that's that's like when we go out and hunt in big Woods, it's like the number of places you come across where you're just like, this is this amazing spot that I just discovered. Yeah. If you took a trail to that spot would be the same. it's not the, I've gotten more and more trail cam pictures of people walking in the woods with saws. And literally cutting trails, right? like all of a sudden I come back to my game drill and I look, I'm like, what the hell is this? there was a full on trail right in front of it. Oh yeah. There guy, they're cutting out all these trees up in Jay a few years back that went to jail.'cause he like cleared this huge run off the backside of Big J. He was up there with a chainsaw. he like cleared a ski run, put him working. But the funny thing is it was on state land. Oh yeah. And I think he went to, I think he went put in jail time. Wow. But the thing is that like for the back country skiing community, that dude was just like a martyr. No, I'm sure.'cause the trees are gone now. It's sweet's agitated. Everyone else is going and skiing it still, Yeah. Yeah, but it's funny you say that about, I was bush whacking a couple weeks back, just plowing up the steep hill. Get to the top of this cliff. Here's a hiking trail. I didn't know was there. I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. Oh really? I took the fun out. It's go, man, you could have just taken this trail up or whatever. But yeah, that was the first one there in years, but yeah, wasn't the case. Oh man, that's funny. That's good. yeah, no, I think that the back country skiing thing too, I mean I think I've heard some pretty compelling arguments about, disruption of moose and stuff too. And moose are under so much pressure right now. Definitely. especially like they're so pocketed, they're not widespread across the states of the areas that have the moose. It's basically the population of the moose. And if you guys are in there cutting trails or doing whatever, that's really gonna displace those. Yeah. They don't have the feed everywhere, so they can't just go to the next ridge for the most part. But it's just gotta be this balance somehow. Yeah, It's So I guess like bringing all this back together, do you feel like, BHA is doing anything at all around this matter? Or is there, is it like, are they aware of it? Are they, yeah, so we've been, we did a podcast about this issue, right? new England, chapter of BHA did a podcast about it. we're aware of it. We post, whenever this tr these trail projects happen on public land, there's public comment periods where pe the whatever agency, the state, the national Forest, they solicit feedback from the public on whether or not they think it's a good idea. And BHA writes letters to all those. How much sway that has. I don't know. I think in some cases it, it pulls more weight than others. But we're, it's an issue that we're on, we're working on. we've actually as like a New England wide chapter, myself and a guy in Maine with BHA have started trying to compile stuff into like a guide that you can put out to land managers about, like how to think about where you should put trails getting into, like those buffer zones and stuff like that. Yeah, definitely. State of New Hampshire, like the state actually put out a guide really. and that's one of the things we've drawn on a lot, but it's just, are people using it? I don't know. The guide is as far as what, where trails can and can't go. Yeah. and a lot of it's based on these buffer things and like condensing trails into a concentrated area. Okay. Instead of spreading them all out. So like they, you can look it up online, New Hampshire state, it's like guide for trails, designing trails for wildlife or something like that. I forget the exact name. they have some mapping tools. there was a UVM graduate student, I think she actually was, I mean she was based in, she did a lot of her work in Stowe. And I actually think that STO land trust is like one of the more progressive land trusts as far as trying to think about this. Yeah. Because of that. But looking at that buffer distance and consolidating tra contending trails and that sort of thing. Yeah, that's great. so that's the kind of thing that we are trying to push and trying to push it out to land trusts and trying to push it out to, I don't know, private landowners too, right? but I don't know how successful that's gonna be. at the end of the day, I think It comes down to money in a lot of cases. Yeah. It always does. and we gotta figure out how to make it look like the money works out in order to do the right thing. that's always the game you're playing with any of this stuff, right? Like Yep. It's gotta be a co The right solution has to be a cost effective solution. Definitely. Or else it's never gonna really like, work out. Yeah. Yeah. and so like, how do you feel that BHA stands with like the land trusts and Yeah, so that's a big topic right now. there's the whole 30 by 30 initiative, which is like conser. It's, there's a Act 59 that was passed in Vermont a year or two ago, I think. It's basically saying they want to conserve 30% of the land in the state by 2030. Conserving it from trails being put in or conserving it to. Conserving the natural landscape that we have. Okay. So the concept behind that is essentially it should be conserving it for all of the things that happen on it now, right? Including hunting. so definitely that is something that we are getting very involved with. There's been like a focus group kind of thing that we were actually invited to be a part of. and BHA is actually holding an event on Tuesday. Oh, really? In Bristol, Vermont, I think about this topic, but basically, the way we feel about it, just to back up to BHAA little bit, like our whole thing is like conserving access to the wild experience, like the back country experience. Back country hunters and anglers, right? and in the west where the organization started. That's talking about public land and it's about advocating to keep our public land, to keep it accessible, keep it open to hunting and fishing, trapping In the east it's about that, but also like our hunting culture in the east is built on large blocks of publicly accessible private land. Yeah. Most of this is private, so how can you manage Private lands and so this is where like the whole land conservation and land trust things comes in. I think it's an absolutely critical thing because this is happening. Yeah. And it's either gonna happen with the hunter's voice involved or not. And I like, personally, I see like this big push, 30 by 30, like big push to conserve private land. I see it as either the thing that's gonna save our hunting culture and save our big woods. Or the thing that's gonna be like the finishing blow. Yeah. Because there's no reason why we can't be sitting at the table and making sure that when like conservation easements get put on these big pieces of land that they allow hunting and fishing and trapping in perpetuity. And if you, that's what these easements do. it's saying what you can and can't do with this land forever. And if hunting's on there, great. Yeah. that's awesome. Yeah.'cause it's way like that's way better long term than having some timber company that just lets you do whatever you want on their land. But at any moment is beholden to their shareholders and Yeah. The bottom line. And what they do with the timber that's on the land then too. They go through and wipe it all out. It's gonna be garbage in 10 years. for the most part, the way they manage it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So we're, this is something that we are like, I think it, from my point of view and like how I got into BHA in New England, this has always been the thing in the back of my mind. And we always, we get bogged down just fighting the anti-hunting bills that come every year. And it feels like we're just, on the defense all the time. But the thing that, like the land conservation piece and doing that in a way that actually is going to benefit our hunting culture, that's like what we need to be doing. We aren't gonna be able to do what we're doing forever. Like the timber companies are selling their land to investment groups that have different motivations. The family farms are dying and getting broken up. Like you see it right around us. yeah. These, the farmers aren't gonna, are not wanting to farm anymore. And next thing they see how much money they can make just selling off just a piece of their couple acres. Back acres. they, oh yeah. That's all the money I need right there. Be good. And if you like, if you're a tracker and you got a big piece of woods that gets broken up, all you need is one lot to be posted. Yeah, exactly. And it's all over, Yes. and you're running and you're seeing more and more of that as people are finding these places moving outta the city and coming up here and you're finding yeah. With COVID it's All of a sudden you had all these people who could afford to buy 60 acres in Vermont. Yes. And they could work remotely, the working remote. And they didn't share our same values about land use. Definitely. that's exactly it. Yeah. Yes. and then now they're, they're pushing just instead of using signs, they just want to be able to put up some paint. And which is, that's something we've been really vocal on. And hopefully that one's dead. I'm not, I haven't checked in on it recently. I think they, but it just, yeah, it just shows that, exactly what you're saying. We're always on defense and if we want to do what we love doing, we gotta keep our voice, heard. And I think being pro proactive with the land conservation thing, like it's, I think it gets a bad reputation sometimes in our community, because usually when you go from a timber company that doesn't give a shit about what you do on their land, to a private owner that conserves the land and maybe cares more, it feels like you're losing. You're losing opportunity as a hunter. But at the end of the day, that same mechanism is a mechanism that could save that opportunity. So I think like I said, I think it's just absolutely, it's super, super important that hunters are at the table. Definitely. It's gonna be a full-time job just to keep track of all these new bills and stuff they're trying to pass every year. Yep, yep. Yeah, it is a lot. It seems every month there's something new that comes out, whether it's a paint or just open access and land selling off and Yep. You name it. Yep. Yeah. Another thing was what, land leases. Yeah. like you're seeing more and more of these pop up around hunting. People are finding that you can make money off of your land because you can, yeah. Have a big chunk of land that someone can come hunt on. What I'm nervous about is that all of a sudden these hunters are going into these areas where they've hunted forever. Like for instance, going back to the area that I've hunted my entire life, all of a sudden there's bike trails all over it, and you get frustrated because then there's no deer there when you finally do go in there. And so it's screw this. I'm gonna go to a hunting lease. Just be like, where I know that there's gonna be hunting hunters, there's not gonna be any trails. And then all of a sudden it's you're gonna see, oh, you're making, judge turns into this, like it turns to play thing too, turns into play. that's how in Midwest and it's huge out in the Midwest. Yeah. And so the Vermont Constitution, right? We have this thing in the Vermont Constitution that says you have the right to hunt and fish on private land unless it's posted. Correct. It's I might be, I'm going out on a limb here, but that exists because the people who are writing that constitution were thinking about like Europe where the king owned, like Robinhood, like hunting the King's game. Like where it was like, and it's still that way to some extent in Europe, like where like you had the wealthy that like owned access to that and not everyone could access public, like the public resource of wildlife. And so that's why it's like the wildlife's public, you should be able to access that on any land unless it's posted. And the whole point of the posting thing is okay, yeah, there's reasons why maybe some land should be posted, but we wanna make it a little bit of a hurdle. Instead of being like oh, I have to post my land because I just bought this. Not actually thinking of the, the correct or good reason to post it. But of course now, like I talk to a lot of hunters around where I live who are like, yeah. The only way to shoot a buck every year is to put in a food plot and post your land. Yeah. Because like you can't chase'em anymore'cause you're gonna hit someone else's public land. You just need to try and get the bucks to come to you on your little spot and guard it. Like your castle. It's starting to happen over here. Yeah. It seems like whatever happens in the West Midwest, it always slowly works its way east and I feel like sooner than later it's gonna happen. I feel like. Yeah. As far as hunting leases go. Ah, that's scary. to hear about that Maine, so that's, I was fishing properties up there. It's all timber company, but they leased it out to hunt. So I was just gonna bring that, I was gonna lead into that. Where you with Joey? Last year. When they, when you guys were driving around and you guys hit that big chunk of land? We did. Yeah. It was like some crazy amount, like 2000 acres or something. Insane. All gated off. There wasn't poster signs or anything like that, but if we knew it was a hunting lease, you're not allowed in there. Yeah. So you just, you're starting to see it pop up. Just doesn't feel right. It doesn't as a New Englander. Yeah, exactly. Especially a place. It's lots you wanna see. Yeah. Especially a big place like up in Maine where, I mean tracking, it's just the heritage up there and all of a sudden you're, driving the road in 2000 acres. Sorry. yeah. Yeah. So I just, it's gotta be, there has to be, it has to be like, it has to pay for a large landowner to continue to own a large piece of land or else they're not going to anymore. They're gonna sell it off. That's one of the challenges. And then the other one is, there's gotta be some incentive for those people that do hang on to those large pieces of land, those companies, investors, whatever. To let people go on, keep coming on it. And then the other complicating thing is you get I think it's probably okay if I just call'em out, but you have some conservation organizations, like Northeast Wilderness Trust, their whole thing is the kind of forever wild, so no active management. And they allow hunting by permission only. But then they have this sort of romantic view of what hunting should and shouldn't be, and they impose their own regulations that are not in line with the states on their lands. Really? This is in Vermont? In Vermont? In, wow. I think in New Hampshire, Maine, across New England. No kidding. they're involved with a huge project that I think is as a whole, gonna be an awesome thing up by the alway. oh yeah. Kinda along the Maine, New Hampshire border. There is a huge conservation project there and portions of that. We'll be these forever wild things. And so it's okay, they're conserving these big pieces of land, but then they're gonna come out and say basically the only kind of hunting we want you doing on it is like tracking deer. We don't want people hunting with dogs of any kind. We don't want people doing any kind of predator hunting. So for BHA, that's a problem.'cause we're, we're about science-based management. And that's what the states do well. Why not do exactly what these organizations are doing, but just say we're gonna be in line with the state's regulations. There's this I don't know, it's this like romanticized view of what hunting should be. Yep. It sounds like issues down the road too, with people who are following the state law, but then don't follow the landowner's law and then Next thing you know, that's shut down then from hunting. So that's. Yeah. That's a form of what we'll see with how these big pieces of private land change hands and different Different ownership. Yep. So one thing that is that's promising is that, generally speaking, a land trust, stow Land Trust, Vermont Land Trust, these small land trusts, like usually they're not gonna ban hunting in an easement, so like a conservation easement. It's essentially like a deed restriction that gets put on a piece of property that says what you can and can't do effectively. Yep. And it's better than a deed restriction because it's, there's a land trust that stewards it and that Land trust has a board that's constantly getting more people on it. So if you buy a piece of land, you hire a lawyer and they do a title search, whatever, and it might come up with some restriction and you could. Your lawyer in many cases can just undo that restriction if there's no one out there to fight it. But a land trust works because it's got this board that's entity that's gonna last forever that's there to fight it in court. Basically. Yeah. No land trust wants to police hunting and fishing, so on someone else's land in perpetuity. And so no land trust in their right mind is gonna say on that easement, you can't allow hunting and fishing. The problem is the same thing. it's easier to say you can allow it than it would be to say you can't allow it. Because if the land Trust says you can't allow it, it becomes their responsibility to make sure that it doesn't happen. So who's gonna police that? Then all of a sudden you're going, so by and large, that's a good thing that's built into that process. But you can still have a landowner that has conserved property that under many easements can decide to post it. So what I wanna see is easements that say, this must remain open to hunting and fishing. In accordance to state laws. Yes. Like state hunting and fishing rules. that's the thing we need to be pushing for. And I think if somehow there can be money behind that, like if we can be like, we're gonna help fund the process of conserving this land.'cause it's expensive to pay lawyers to do all this stuff that we're like, we're gonna help fund this if it says that we can hunt and fish on it forever. that's the sort of thing we need to start doing, I think. Yeah. Yeah. That would get their attention. Yeah. but I don't know, Like I said, it'll be after this podcast is aired probably, but we're doing this thing on in, I think it's in Bethel or No, Bristol, Vermont, Bristol. Yeah. next week. And we're bringing in a bunch of different people to talk about it. Cool. how many guys are part of BHA in New England? Is it quite a few or is it a small number? Yeah, so BHA, most other states have their own chapter for the state in New England. It's a New England chapter. Okay. And there's a volunteer board. I don't remember how many of, I'm on that New England board. I think there's, I don't know, maybe there's eight or 10 of us. But then each state has a sort of leadership team that coordinates stuff in the state. Okay. It's all volunteer. there's two paid staff members from the national organization that sort of have jurisdiction over us. And they help us out. But it's volunteer stuff. And unfortunately, we blow a lot of volunteer, like I was saying, we blow a lot of volunteer time and energy on just like playing defense Against this stupid stuff. It's like that bill, whatever it was last year, like trying to get rid of the Fish and Wildlife Board and restructure. Yeah. Oh yeah. So it's like we, we fought that really hard and as a result we didn't, we weren't able to put a lot of energy into this land conservation. And you say land, it's like you have to pick your battles here. Yeah. There's something, you're right. But I think it's just we need to figure out how we can keep tracking bucks on public, on private land. Definitely. that's The problem. Yeah. yeah. Now what's your guys' role like? Typically just going to meetings and just spreading awareness of what's happening and what's going on and all that stuff. so a lot of it's like advocacy. Okay. And it's based on like grassroots. So a lot of it is we keep our ear out for legislation, or if it's like Green Mountain National Forest or some Land Trust group or something is like trying to do a project and there's an opportunity to provide public input. We try to provide input and we try to tell our members to go out and provide input. Yep. the other, that's a good thing you guys are doing. Yeah. Yeah. And we're trying to do it right, It's always gonna try. we could do it better. Another big part of what BHA does is like stewardship projects, like boots on the ground work, like on public land. So I. we've done like bridges on a road up in the Conte Refuge that the bridge needed to be redacted. And we called out a bunch of members, we came out, we volunteered, redacted the bridge. help it make so that like people can get in there and access it come hunting season. we're always looking for projects like that, but those projects tend to be on public land and, that's great, but so much of our land is private. We rely on this private land. It's like, how do you, how do we get engaged on that is always a challenge, And I'm sure it'd be good to have, like some private landowner need a bridge put in or whatever, and the BHA guys do it. It's just a good Good word for you guys. For locals around there. But how do you do that? I don't know. I know. No idea. I know. Yeah. And that's why, I think, I don't know, I come back to just like trying to develop positive relationships with land trusts and trying to educate them. That's an organization that then goes and works with the private landowners, and so then you can try And Now do they, but like those land trusts, do they ever have these meetings, open meetings or whatever? I don't know that, like how do you get involved with that? Do you just like through email? I don't know. it varies. Okay. there's small local land trusts, but for the most part that stuff's just happening behind closed doors. That's what I mean. It seems like a lot of this stuff is just happening behind closed doors. Yeah. And so you're just trying to keep an ear out, trying to pick whatever, Yeah. Anything that you, I think some of the bigger ones, I think sto land trusts, again, I think whether it seems like they are or not on the ground, I think they're actually one of the better ones at doing that sort of thing.'cause they realize they've got so many different user groups that they're trying to manage. Definitely. I, and they have money. exactly what you're saying. Yeah. if you wanna do a lot of these other land trusts are relying on volunteers as well. And like I said, it's like the land conservation thing is expensive, so comes back to money. But, yep. Should we touch on the Bathon stuff? Yeah. Yeah. So let's hear about this biathlon. you're developing, rifles now. Yeah, so that's, I competed for a long time and then I coached the shooting side of it. and then I, I started, I studied mechanical engineering. I started making my own equipment Nice. And I started selling it. Yeah. So I have business basically building those rifles. they're 20 twos, basically biathlon race, like you ski app, you come in, you have five shots at five targets. If you miss any, you gotta do an extra loop for each shot you miss. Oh wow. Yeah. And then you go back out and see the course again. You come in, you shoot five more shots. At five more targets. You ski an extra loop for each miss. Wow. So like the loop, the race might be 10 kilometers total, but you might be doing a lot more. But every time you miss a shot, you're gonna ski an extra, like 150 meters or something like that. It takes 30 seconds to ski it. Now how far are your shots usually? Are they all different? It's 50, it's all the same. It's 50 meters and we shoot prone with a sling and then like unsupported offhand on, on your skis, you can leave your skis on'cause you're on the clock the whole time. That's the other piece of this. So you need to shoot fast. Yeah. so usually in a race, like the first time you come to the range, you're gonna shoot laying down prone position, and the second time you're gonna shoot standing up, it's always 50 meters. That's what? 60 yards. And then the prone position, the target's about that big. Oh wow. It's Forget the exact thing. Smoke? Yeah, it's like about the size, like a Oreo cookie. Okay. And then when you're shooting, standing, it's about that big, so five inches. Okay. And you're shooting open sites? No, magnification. It's like a, it's like a diopter site. So like you got a front site that's like a little circle and a rear peep site. Basically you're shooting peep sites. and you guys all shooting the same rifles or do, can you, so basically custom make your own gun and do liking stuff. Basic. Basically, everyone's using the same barrel in action. It's made by, on shoots the German company and it's, their barrels work really well in the cold, which is an important factor. But then their action, it's a straight pull bolt action. So you can just toggle it with your thumb and trigger finger. Yep. Without disturbing your position much. And it's fast. You can't use semi-autos. but that straight pull bolt is Almost as fast as a semi-auto, as far as actual shooting. Accurate shots. so almost everyone's using that barreled action, but then everyone's stock is different. Totally custom for them. Okay. And this is where you wanted to modify your own? Yeah, so I make the stocks. Yeah, they're like a chassis style stock. It's really adjustable, composite or what? carbon machined aluminum and like plastics, like composite plastics. we do a lot of like custom 3D printed grips for people, to fit their hands just right and everything. Cool. so we do that. We, we're a dealer for on shoots. We sell those high-end rifles. Those things go for like almost six grand now. Holy smokes. Wow. But then a big part of my business is like bringing that cost down. So I'll go out and buy like the CZ 4 57. It's just like a really nice bolt action 22 you can get for 500 bucks. And then I'll make biathlon sites, I'll make all the specific parts that turn it into a lon rifle. And then I sell that for 1500 bucks. As a way for someone to get into the sport more easily. we're actually working on our own action right now for the last year and a half. So it's our own design. Straight pull action. Okay. And it's something just smoother and faster or something, or, the goal's not necessarily to be like better than that high end rifle, but it's to be something that's provides a similar level of performance that they got a lower price point. Yeah. Yeah. Trying to make it affordable to try to, exactly. Stupid question. What do you guys shoot for ammo? you're probably not shooting cheap thunderbolts at misfire every shot and whatnot. Yeah. So that's the thing. we shoot my, do hound. Yeah. Yeah. You're actually not allowed to shoot, super sonic ammo. Okay. It's gotta be subsonic. Okay. and we're shooting a lot of, it's like SK or pua, it's like European companies that make like really highend rim fire ammo. Okay. They actually make a biathlon specific ammo that has. Like a different primer compound in it for better ignition when it's cold out. The cold weather performance thing is like this whole rabbit hole that no one cares about other than by athletes. and does the cold effect, it might be a stupid question, but does it affect your sight, so if it's super cold out, do you have to dial your sight in differently and set your gun in? Or is it can change your point of impact? It does some, it does. Yeah. But the biggest thing is just like the consistency, like your shot groupings. Okay. So you're always shooting five shots and you need those five shots to hit as close to the same spot as possible. And if you've got like a super cold barrel and you take a shot through that barrel Then it warms up out, then you're gonna get like condensation inside that barrel. And if it's cold enough out That condensation might start to freeze before you take your next shot. And so you get like this wild variability. Wow. and With high-end room fire ammo, like the lube on the bullet makes a huge difference. Because that sort of is what's seasoning the inside of your barrel. so to help me from freezing up with condensation. Yeah. Okay. so it's a whole rabbit hole. I actually do that for the national team, the US national team, like as a contractor sort of consulting thing. Like we test all the athletes' barrels and you, because you can't hand load rim fire ammo, you basically have to go out and buy as many different batches as you can from a manufacturer and test them all in your rifle. Oh man. One, they all vary a little bit too. Oh yeah. Oh my. It's crazy. you can take a$5,000 rifle that's designed to shoot in the cold and you can take 22 ammo that literally costs like 25 cents a shot, which is like. cheap 22 ammo is probably like 5 cents a shot. And two different batches of that super expensive ammo. One of'em in the cold will be group like that. Wow. And the other one will group like that. No kidding. Oh, big difference then. Really big. Yeah. Just batch to batch. Yeah. Wow. It's crazy. So you test shoot batches before you, you go to an event, you'll pick out a the box animal that shoots really good and you'll just stick with that. Yeah. Yeah. So you'll, so we, we literally, we have a walk-in freezer with a whole cut in it and a vice, and we put a rifle in that vice in the middle of the summer, we bring the ammo in the freezer. Okay. We cool it down and we shoot groups out of a vice at zero degrees Fahrenheit. And we find the batch of ammo that groups best with each athlete's rifle. And then we set aside kidding, nobody smokes, Wow. We set aside whatever X number rounds for each athlete and that's the ammo they race with. There's a lot to it. there's a lot. Yeah. That's great. That wow. Let alone skis. I'm sure there's another rabbit where you can go down. Yes, it is. Oh yeah, I stay outta that. Oh yes. Oh yes. But no, and it's biathlon like in the US it's like people know it as an Olympic sport. but it's, there's like a World Cup circuit and then there's a level below the World Cup circuit, which is what I raced on, that happens every year. Travels around mostly in Europe, and it's a big deal. the top by athletes in most European countries are like, they're professional athletes. They're making a living, they're in the tabloids. Really? It's a big deal. and yeah, it's like people get crazy about watching the races. Yeah. The first big international race I did was in, Southern Germany and I was like 16 and little 16-year-old from Vermont. They literally changed the train schedules outta Munich for this event.'cause so many people come to watch. Oh my gosh. Really? To watch it. And it's like a party. Oh yeah. Like all these people in face paint. 30,000 spectators grand stands behind the range. Yeah. Everybody's heckling drunk off shn. Oh yeah. and it's yeah. you think it's hard to shoot after you skied. Add the fact that you have 30,000 drunk Germans. Yelling at you. And like they all go quiet and then you shoot. And if you hit, they all scream. And if you miss like this big, literally focusing on you, it's insane. That is wild. Yeah. You have some serious pressure there. Yeah. And it's, yeah. There's no other shooting sport that has that. No. So you shoot, you sling your rifle, you ski a lap. How far is the lap? Anywhere from two to four kilometers. what's that? The miles? Miles? Yeah. 1.7 or something. I don't know. Yeah. I'm good with the conversions in smaller units. not that one. Now, how long does it take to do that? Like a lap? the lap, it might be like, eight to 15 minutes. Okay. Or something like that. For the lap. these whole races might be a half hour to an hour Okay. Is the whole thing. And you're on the clock the whole time, so you're trying to shoot quickly. Top athletes are gonna, from the time that they show up on the range with a rifle on their back to when they're leaving the range with a rifle back on their back, it's 30 seconds. Wow. So you're, is this a side by side race or is it an individual? You go out, you do your laps, and then you It's both. Okay. Yeah. huh. Yeah, it must be a little nerve wracking seeing all your guys leaving. You're still doing laps done. Yeah. They're echoing your next that's why people, that's why people like to watch it so much is because like it can change so quick. Oh, I bet. Like you can have someone who's way off the front and they come in and just blow it on a shooting stage. Oh man. And they go into the penalty lap and everyone else is just out and gone. Oh man. It's it's just you out there. It's like it totally changes. So yeah, it's, it's addicting for sure. Definitely. I'm sure you pretty huge, increase right after the Olympics. obviously everyone zones in the Olympics, they don't see this all the time, and then all of a sudden right after the Olympics are done, they're Yeah. Here in the US and I like coach a little bit up in crafts, bury at the lon range there and Everyone wants to come out and try it. Yep. After the Olympics. My business, everyone goes online and they're like, how can I get one of these rifles right? And they go on Google and I pop up. So now is that like open to the public then if someone like watch the Olympics, be like, I wanna try biathlon, can they come to you and just like at Rasberry and be like, let me, you can book a lesson. Okay. Or if you have your own. Equipment. Yeah, there's like open range times you can sign up for. Yeah. But it's not, you can't just show up and with your, your downhill ski hots. You can't, yeah. You can't show up with your downhill ski and your, the six your Henry Golden boy and our insert Oh, the north up through the showing up next year. The Northwood. We should, yeah. We'll book a lot. we actually do would be graved at that, blow his knees out for lap. We do in, we do it twice a summer, usually at least once a summer we do a novice race. Yep. You can run or mountain bike. And we provide rifles. Yeah, we do a little clinic. The rifle just sits on the range. And it's a a race. You can show up with no experience and you just go out there and send it. That would be fun for a loop. You come in and you just go to whatever rifle's available and rattle off some shots, really do your penalty laps. Yep. That'd be a good time. We get that would be a good, we've gotten like 80 people. They're not for some of those races. Really Super cool People love it. And you said biking, you guys do that in the summertime, obviously you're not skiing, so you're doing laps on a bike and you're doing the same type of thing. Yep. Cool. Yeah. Anything you can to train for it. we'll do we'll do like a strength, like a weight circuit on the range or running Biking. Just to get the heart rate up. Yep. Yeah. And then you have to control the heart, And everything. Oh man. Yeah. Yeah. While trying to hit a Oreo size target. Oh, Yeah. It ends up being like all, it's all about the breathing really. Totally. like breath control and that's. That's how you control your heart rate indirectly. you can't, yep. Maybe there's Buddhist monks out there that can risk control their heart rate, but at the end of the day, it's it's breathing. Yeah. That really makes it work. Now, what about triggers? Do you have to really modify your trigger to get like a super light pole or something like that? there's rules that say that your trigger can't be less than 500 grams, which is about a pound. Okay. One pound, which is light, but that's light. Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna, so most people try to make it light. at the limit. that's especially for standing up. And if you're trying to take a free hand shot on a deer, like a light trigger helps. Because that's, you're mo you're moving, there's movement. Yeah. And you need to be able to like a, get that shot off at the instant that you needed to go off. and b, like if you jerk the trigger offhand, you're gonna be off by feet. Oh yeah. They're all, it's all light triggers and most of the time it's a two stage trigger too, which really helps with that offhand shooting as well. Which is what there's like a little bit of take up. Okay. So you can put a little work in and hold that pressure on it, and then it breaks and then it breaks. Huh. Which I wish more hunting rifles had. Because if you're taking an unsupported offhand shot, it's helps a lot To be able to do that where you know when it's gonna be going rather than just give her something, But I know with a shotgun, it's if you can slap the trigger But if you like, if you can have a, you know where you are on that trigger. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. It's a lot easier to make a good shot. Now, have you modified your deer hunting rifle at all, or thought about it? I do the timney trigger kit on my seven 60. Yep. Okay. That's a good question. I make it light. Yeah. I like a light trigger on the hunting rifle too. Yep. Do you do other custom gun work to your hunting rifle since you have all this To my own stuff? Own your own. and sometimes friends, I try to stay outta it. Honestly. It's, I find with like custom work on other people, like it's one thing to make a rifle and sell it to someone, but like the custom work, it's like everyone's weird about their guns. Yeah. Oh yeah. And it's hard to charge. It's hard to charge enough to actually make it worth it. And I don't want to charge that much. Depends. Yeah. If I actually value my time and the risks associated with doing that work and like all that stuff, it's I don't know. Yeah. But I do it on my own, like I'm barrels down and stuff. Really nice. I actually put a. I got a second barrel for my seven 60 and chopped it down to 16 and a half and threaded it Wow. To play around with the suppressor. Wow. Okay. That's sweet. I haven't really played around with it much, but yes. So you have a whole machine shop set up and everything. Yeah. yeah. And sites too. One of the things I'm, one of the things I'm actually considering starting to make is like extra low scope rings. Yes. I'm a scope guy. I started, when I started deer hunting, I had peep sites. Yep. But I don't know, maybe my eyes have gotten worse, but I like to get a good look at what I'm shooting at. And so I've converted over to the scopes and I, like with biathlon, I taught myself to shoot with both eyes wide open so I can throw my rifle up and just look through the scope with both eyes open. Yep. But most hunters mount their scopes too high. This is, I get up on my soap box about this. I see so many hunters with their scopes mounted too high. And if you don't have, it's like shooting a shotgun. if you don't have good cheek weld, it's gonna be really hard to make those offhand shots. And one of the reasons that peep sites are so good for that kind of fast shooting is because they're lower and your face is on the stock when you're looking through a peep site, right? so I always, I've actually machined down rings before to make'em lower, like off the bottom. really, it rolls down around the receiver in a way. Yeah. So I can mount it like lower and tighter. if you're running like a little, one and a half to four or something like that, just mount as low as you can so you can actually throw that gun up and have your cheek on the stock and be looking straight through the site. The scope. Yep. Now you shoot over and unders, don't you? You shoot the. Do you have like open size underneath your scope? No, I don't. You don't? Okay. no. I have the Tory mount. Gotcha. So I can actually take my scope right off, and then there's a peep site built in. Okay. but I exactly what you're saying, I would much rather have that scope. I'm just super comfortable pulling my gun up at a running deer. I'm totally comfortable shooting through that gun with that scope on it. but what you're saying is yeah. Modifying that scope to a bigger picture. Is that kind of what you're thinking is a lower power scope, lower power, but just mounting it lower To the action, you can buy low rings and Right. But like a lot of times if you're. If you're running a small scope Yep. That doesn't have the big bell on it, you can go even lower. Gotcha. Yeah. And some rifles, like their stock is designed for a scope and so the combs higher and it works better, but like a lot of the, like the seven sixties are not. the 76 I feel like with the 7,600 they went to a higher comb. It was, they were more designing it for a scope. But a lot of the seven sixties have that lower comb. And I think, yeah, a lot of guys put scopes on those and it's just like you pull that thing up and you're like, oh yeah. The scopes moving all around'cause it's way up off the stock. Yeah. Yeah. You have definitely. That makes sense. I miss a lot of turkeys and deer when I was younger'cause I didn't used to keep my cheek on the stock. Oh yeah. Hitting all over the place. yeah. I shot over the top of a Turkey. Two years ago, because I didn't have my cheek down. Yeah, it makes big difference. Tss you know, the pattern was like this big, and the Turkey was at 10 yards. There goes 20 bucks. Yeah. 20 bucks out the window over the top of his head. Yeah. For a$5 Turkey at the store. Store. and then you just crumple'em with your follow up shot at 80 yards because your pattern's still this tight. yeah. Mid flight. Yeah, that's right. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. What else do you have on the list there? I think I would love to hear a tracking story. Yeah. We, you're talking all stories. Yeah. You're talking all your hunting experiences and stuff. this, I had, I had a kid in the end of August this year, so I. I tried to go tracking in some places. I normally hunt in Vermont and there was like 30 inches of snow on the ground. It was pretty wild. And two were all blown out of there, down into the posted land, Yeah. Down where you can't hunt'em or you can't hunt'em. Yes. but, I got two days of hunting in New Hampshire and the first day I found this area where there was just like bucks coming and going, like just all tore up. Like I had to pick. I was making circles, working my way out, trying to find something that was fresher than the other one, one I wanted to follow. there were multiple tracks in there I would've followed. Finally got on one that I actually think I bumped outta there when I first got there. and he ran for probably, he ran for a while, stopped running. Slow way down. And I bumped him at 20 yards in like the beach saplings. It's like first bound. I just see like big rack. Oh yeah. I get on him with the second bound shoot right as he hits the ground into a blow down. Oh yeah. And I basically ran after him because he went over the crest of this hill and I knew that it was like big hardwood basin below that. Yep. Up to the next little ridge. And so I just got right to the edge and he, I had another chance. It was like probably 130 yards through the hardwoods and he was walking quartering away. Oh, really? Just walking, it was like a freebie, right? And I like braced against the tree, felt good about it, shot, and he just disappeared. I got over there and he never changed pace. Really? No sign of hitting him or anything. I mark it on OnX. I go back to where I shot from and I'm looking, I'm like, The window I shot through was not a window there. No. like you're shooting like the ground drops away. So like you're basically finding a hole, but the hole is like through treat. Oh yeah. I don't think my bullet made it to him. Yeah. Yeah. So I got back on him and he slowed down again, like tore up this little spruce tree. He goes down, he crosses a road, he's in this river bottom. I start to, I can smell him. And then I hear a stick break in front of me and I'm like, here we go. Actually, no, I could smell him and there was like bunch of, he made a scrape, tore up this spruce tree and I grunted and then I hear a stick break. These six guys. No, God come walking through the woods in a single file. They were all smoking cigars. Oh my God. Walking in a single file line, I swear, like they were in elementary school walking down the hall, like they were so close to together. Were they Hunters other hunter? Yeah. And I think they, they had just done a drive, like they had come from this road and they were doing like a drive up through the river bottom. They didn't see the buck, they didn't see his tracks, even though they were like basically walking on them. They had, they were like totally clueless. But at that point I was just like, all right, whatever. So I like left that track. that was the first day that I had in New Hampshire, took two shots. That's exciting. It was exciting. second day. I got on probably the biggest track I've ever seen, but it was like a little old. It's one of those ones that like, I probably wouldn't have followed if it wasn't so big. It was just like, I gotta, Oh yeah. And I took that one for a really long time and then I got cut off by another guy. but that deer was headed down into this just absolute fire swamp hellhole. there's no way that guy was gonna find that deer. Yeah, I've followed a deer in that spot before and good luck. Yeah. Yeah. Not gonna get into that thing. so then I like hiked all the way back up to that same spot from the first day, get on another track. It's like just blazing fresh. I can smell him the whole way. He was just walking and I followed him for the whole rest of the day up over this mountain through the saddle, like twice, and I think I was just, he never stopped. He never ran. I think I was just like 200 yards behind him all day. Just sitting out in front of you? Yeah, just a little bit like, yep. There was a time when I like got in and he was walking in moose tracks and then I jumped the moose. Oh man. And I never, like the deer wasn't there. That was like pretty late in the afternoon. I started slowing way down, but I was just like, I was just bonked outta my mind. Yeah. It was like 3 45 in the afternoon. Yeah. And I'm like walking along and I look up and I'm like, at this little bench that's 50 yards above me. And I was like, that's a great spot for a buck to bed down. Oh yeah. And then I look back at the tracks and I look out ahead of me and it's yep. He just started feeding and he just turned up there and I like literally am like bringing the gun up as I just see him bail the other side. did you get a shot off? Didn't get a shot off and, yeah, it was like four miles back. So I. Gave up and that was my two days in New Hampshire. Yeah, a lot of excitement came close, lot of excitement. The year before I shot a nice eight pointer. It was like 186 something pounds, like probably awesome. 500 yards from where that bumped that deer the second day really. was that tracking or tracking? Yeah. Yeah. It was the exact same scenario. It just. I was two seconds ahead. Yep. I looked up and he was, had adjusted up out of his bed. He was looking at me and I just, you're able to pull it on the white patch of his throat and he just fell back into bed. Awesome. Yeah. It's a big advantage knowing the woods you're in, like when you took off after the deer, he jumps in the first day knowing that it's a big open hardwood bowl down there to catch him. If you're in new area, I don't think they're takeoff running after em when I shoot'em.'cause I dunno what the woods are half the time. It's then you walk down there, it's a nice wide open bowl like you're saying, and go, shoot, I should've stayed on him. Could've got a crack down in here at him. But that's, I think that's something I picked up, like chasing rabbits in my backyard. It was just like knowing it and instincts. I got a buck in the similar area too, where it was like that deer took me through the same saddle twice. And after the second time I was like, no. See ya. I'll be at the saddle next time you come through. Yeah. And I just ran up to it. And shot him when he came here. Wow. Third time. Yeah. That's sweet. Nice. nice. But, and then in Vermont, I, the second to last day of muzzle litter season, I had my muzzle litter not go off twice. And then the next day, same exact spot, same bucket went off and I got him. You did no way, just old primers, like thing just went click. Yep. Were you tracking him? the first day I was tracking him, which was silly because there's just not a, it's not a good place to track. I could follow him for a quarter mile and he'd be on posted land. Ah, yep. But I just got on the track and I was like, whatever. Second to last day, a muzzle loader and I caught up to him on that. Like without cross, without leaving that property. Yeah. it was just a fluke. But then you caught him the next day on the same property The next day I was just like, I'm just gonna go back. To basically that same spot. He was right back in there and I'm gonna go in and wait for him to come through. Wow. And it was like a nice five point, I think he was like one 60 ish, like a good deer for not big woods around us. Yeah. but there was a spike corn and a dough with two little yearlings and that was just that group just hanging out right there. Yeah. Yep. And that's a spot that I always bow hunt in. That was the first time I'd ever hunted it in the morning. And it was the first time I've ever hunted it outside of October. Huh. And I was just like, whatever, I'm just gonna go back and try this spot. Yep. And those deer were just living there. Basically. Yep. In December, Now do you scout and run cameras or do you just do all your scouting when you're hiking and skiing and biking and all that stuff? I put cameras up, although honestly I don't know that I've ever actually. I get, I put cameras up to get cool pictures. Yeah, totally. Totally. I don't know that I could think of a deer that I actually killed as a result of camera scouting. Or pictures I've gotten. But the time you spend in the woods walking around looking for a place to put a camera up. Yeah. There's your, yeah, there's your scouting right there. Exactly. yeah. But yeah, I spend a lot of time in the woods. Yes. That alone helps. Yeah. Do you stick to mostly Vermont or do you hunt New Hampshire quite a bit too? Vermont and New Hampshire mostly. Like usually, I went to college in New Hampshire. Okay. so I got into hunting some areas there. and I try to get over there and hunt, hunt New Hampshire once or twice a year. but mostly Vermont. And then I've gone to Colorado for elk a few times too. Oh, nice. Cool. cool. Hoping to get a Mule deer tag there this fall, but Nice. You got the Western niche then. Yeah. It's, it's just a, it's just different. I was gonna say different cool ballgame out there. Yeah. Yeah. I guess the seasons are earlier too, for the most part. you're hunting elk in September. Yeah. And I think it's, I don't know. I think that, have you guys ever hunted out there? Never have. No. if you're, like, if you hunt in the way that you guys do, you can be very successful out west. in my experience, there's guys that go out there and they hunt within two miles of a trailhead, or where they can drive or ride a side by side too. Yep. And then there's guys that go out there and they get packed in by horses 15 miles and dropped off and they hunt within two miles of where they get dropped. And then there's this whole area in the middle. Yeah. Where if you're willing to hike between, five and 10 miles in, there's a lot less pressure. Oh yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. And Sounds familiar around. Yeah. And if you go out there like Colorado second rifle season, you can buy an over the counter bull elk tag as an non-resident. Really? Huh? Yeah. I need to look into that. If you go out there, I've wanted to And there's snow on the ground. It's if you're used to tracking white tails in Vermont. Yeah. Tracking elk in the snow out west is like tracking cows in a pasture. Yeah. Yeah. That would be sweet. When are we book on our trip? Go Switch Trip Making our North, which funds? Yeah. No, it's definitely a, and it's it's, it's like a backpacking adventure if you don't get anything. Oh yeah. and I have a lot of friends out there from ski racing and stuff. That's another perk. It's if you have a bunch of like ex-com competitive Nordic ski racers that live nearby, then like you shoot a bull elk, you can call'em. And they'll just put on their running shoes and run and help you carry it out. De those are good friends to have. Yeah. So that's great. But I'd love to, last year, believe it or not, last year was the first year I think that I bought a Maine license. Oh yeah. And I never hunted in Maine. I fished in Maine. Yep. But, I gotta go hunt in Maine. I would say like with the western huntings, even with all the western hunting, like a dream hunt would be a main moose hunt. yep. Yeah. When that, you can put in now, can't you for that? You can, for the moose lottery? Just yeah. Like it just got released last week maybe. Yes. But put'em in. Put'em in, build up those points. Yeah. Great. Once in a lifetime. you can just buy points in Maine basically. It makes you wonder if the points do anything. That's what I was wondering, do they actually amount to anything? Hear locals or people live in Maine and putting in their whole life and they haven't gotten drawn. They have better odds than we do. I know. Yeah, I know. But yeah. cool, Ethan, really appreciate this. where can people maybe follow you or BHA, what's the best way for people, if they're interested in all this conservation, what they can do, where they can go? Yeah, BHA we're trying to, we're trying to do a better job in Vermont of sending out like a more regular email to people who are BHA members that says these are all the different ways that you can, speak up. Yep. These are different opportunities to speak up about these different management choices. One way is to just buy a, BHA membership. Yeah. It's not that expensive. And you can get on that mailing list. And we'll email out about it. BHA also has an Instagram, new England. New England BHA has its own dedicated Instagram. Okay. Where like a lot of that stuff would get posted as well. Yep. me personally, I have an Instagram. I don't think I've posted anything on it in a long time. so it might not be that exciting to follow, but, Yeah. I would say like on the conservation stuff, follow New England BHA and we're get involved, If you really want to get involved, reach out to New England, BBHA and through Instagram or something and get on the state leadership team because that's the group that's like doing the work. and the more bandwidth we have in that group, the more we can push. Stuff out to the general public. Yeah. action items and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. That's huge. yep. So I would say that's the biggest thing. And honestly, like outside of BHA, just like the land conservation stuff, just I don't know, keep an open mind to it and pay attention to it. Definitely. I think it's easy for our com like hunting community to just be like, yeah. I don't wanna worry about it, Exactly. But I think someone else will do it. We need to do, it's, oh yeah. It's just being aware. I know I'm guilty of it. Be aware and not just be like, or if you go to a piece of property and there's a sign that says this property's conserved, or something like that. I don't know, look into it a little bit. And'cause some of that stuff is, some of that stuff's pretty cool and I think it could be, it could serve the hunting community a lot more if we get involved more involved with it. Yeah. Because people by and large in that land conservation world, are not anti-hunting. Yeah. For the most part. like they're totally, and that's the huge thing, but they hear from anti hunters. Yes. and that's in many cases more than they hear from us. that's their biggest thing when Northwoods white tails. We just want to educate people and it's not just, not necessarily just the, the next generation, but just the non-hunters to realize that, Yeah. it's everyone out there and they, yeah. We just don't want them to turn anti-hunting. Because that's the worst thing that can happen to us. There's not that many anti hunters. There's a lot of people in the middle who can go one way or the other. Yes. We want'em to go our way. Unfortunately, the non hunters voice your opinions a lot more, if you like, than. Hunters. They're just the allowed the non-hunters spend all their energy marketing, the anti hunters spend all their energy marketing to non-hunters. Hunters spend no energy doing that. Yeah. And frankly, it's obnoxious that the anti hunters do that. I don't really want to be like them. No. But that's what they do. And I think, as a hunting community, we need to figure out like a good way of doing that. That's respectful and so totally. No, I agree. Yep. Do you wanna plug your, your business? Yeah. These custom? Yeah. Or getting custom. My, my business is, it's called Lost Nation Research and Development, lost Nation, RD. It's purposely ambiguous.'cause when I started, I didn't actually know what I was gonna do. Yeah. Yeah. but we have a website, and yeah, if you wanna try biathlon. Can get you set up with equipment to do it. If you wanna try biathlon, you can go to the Crafts Brew Outdoor Center. Yeah. And they do lessons there. That's, that. You can have someone that went to the Olympics for biathlon. That's cool. That's sweet. Give you a rundown or, show up for one of those, novice races. We do. We're doing that. Yeah. North. We gotta do that. We're doing that actually a couple years ago through BHAI did a hunter's biathlon Really? At Memorial Valley Fishing Game Club. And it was, you bring your deer rifle. All right. Wait, we need to set this up. So if you guys, we need to set this up. Come if you guys want to help me bring this back. Yeah. We, this be awesome. I'm on board. But basically the idea is you have a course, people can hike it, people can run it. Yeah. Whatever they want to do. But you carry your deer rifle, you come in, you gotta shoot a steel gong, target, whatever. We had a drag for the penalty. So if you missed it, yes. We had a jet. This. That's perfect. We had a jet sled. There was like full of firewood or something. God, you had to drag it a hundred yards out for each shot that you missed. Oh my. Yeah. I thought it was great. Yeah. I think it's great. we had a decent, I don't remember how many people, we did it two years I think, and we had a decent little turnout. People were into it, but I don't know, I just be a sweet summer event. I think. Think lot. Definitely. But I think that like with the right mar, I think it'd be huge. I think people would be super into it. I think so too. The key is like having the right location. Yep. we did it up at, in the Mo Valley Fish and Game Club and they have like their 3D archery course, which is kinda like a trail. It's like a half mile loop. I've shot it before. They've got a gong range. There's, so it works. That works like pretty good. but I think it'd be, I. I think you might be onto something. Think it'd be a good, that's, yeah, we'll need to bring that back. We'll co-host with Northwood White, tail B Do a live. That's, yes. No, that's great. I, we should look into doing that. That'd be great. Cool. Awesome. Yeah. sweet. yeah, I guess real quick, for Northwoods Whitetail side, yeah, please go on and follow and subscribe to all of our channels if you haven't already. we have some really cool stuff coming out. I know we've been quiet, in the past few months. long winter we're coming back to it. Connor's getting back up to Phil Knock. but yeah, no, we have some cool stuff coming out this fall, so just stay tuned. hope you enjoy this podcast, But until next time, what's going on in Miller Truck. We'll tell you after. Kill it. Yep. All right. Thanks guys. See, we'll see you guys.