Episode 1: Rowan Jacobsen: Author, Oyster Expert and Explorer of All Things Interesting.

This INAUGURAL episode features an in-depth discussion between host Kevin Cox and award-winning author and world-renowned oyster expert Rowan Jacobsen.  Together they explore various aspects of oysters, including their role in cuisine, culture, and history. The conversation covers a broad spectrum of subjects, including the basics of oysters, the sensory art of eating oysters and the best practices for tasting and enjoying them. They also talk about the romantic and slightly erotic nuances of oyster consumption and the concept of 'merroir'—the environmental influences on oyster flavors. Rowan describes the distinct differences between regional oyster farming techniques, especially in the Gulf of Mexico and the Pacific Northwest, the evolution and diversity of oysters in different regions and the role of shellfish in human evolution. The discussion also delves into oyster restoration efforts and highlights Rowan's adventures in hunting down lesser-known oyster species like the Olympia oyster. Enjoy this rich tapestry of interconnected themes with this very special guest.

00:00 Introduction to Oysterology

00:29 Meet the Host and Podcast Overview

01:45 Introducing Rowan Jacobson

05:30 Rowan's Journey with Oysters

07:56 Understanding Oysters: Biology and Ecology

11:49 Oyster Restoration and Aquaculture

21:32 Gulf Oysters and Their Reputation

27:44 Oyster Varieties and Merroir

42:13 The Art of Shucking Oysters

43:18 Oyster Influencers and the Master Oyster Guild

44:00 Oyster Shucking Techniques Around the World

45:12 Favorite Oyster Recipes and Cooking Tips

46:13 The Controversy of Barbecued Oysters

47:20 Innovative Oyster Pairings with Alcohol

49:45 The Creamy Oyster Debate

55:50 Oysters and Human Evolution

01:01:38 The Environmental Impact of Oyster and Fish Farming

01:04:30 The Legacy of Wild Oysters in America

01:05:48 The Unique Flavor of Olympia Oysters

01:10:00 Debunking Oyster Myths

01:10:56 Exploring New Topics and Future Projects

01:16:27 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Links:
https://www.rowanjacobsen.com/    Rowan's website - Check it out!

https://www.amazon.com/Wild-Chocolate-Across-Americas-Search/dp/1639733574  Amazon.com link to Wild Chocolate - Across the Americas in Search of Cacao's Soul, by Rowan Jacobsen (2024 Bloomsbury Publishing)

https://www.goodreads.com/author/list/16940.Rowan_Jacobsen. Complete list of books by Rowan Jacobsen on Good Reads.

Please be sure to Like and Follow OYSTER-ology wherever you listen to podcasts, and tell others about it. Every positive mention of it helps more people find the podcast!

Transcript

OYSTER-ology, Episode 1, Rowan Jacobsen: Author, Oyster Expert and Explorer of All Things Interesting.

 Rowan: [00:00:00] oysters in their shell in refrigeration. They can last a month out of the water. Um, so you've got the environment, you've got the, the creature, you've got a little bit of the sea in there. So it's it's extremely transportive for people. Um, and I think that's a large part of why you get that like sort of like wild energy at the table when suddenly. Two dozen oysters appear. 

INTRODUCTION
Kevin: Welcome to Oysterology, a podcast about the wide world of oysters, including everything from spat to shuck. I'm your host, Kevin Cox. Oysterology is a virtual agora, a gathering place where oyster farmers, shuckers, scientists, writers, restaurateurs, environmental activists, and aquaculturists from the widely fragmented world of oysters converge to share knowledge and experience related to oysters.

Kevin: Oysters. Each episode will feature an interview with an expert or [00:01:00] industry professional creating a dynamic and accessible hub for all things oyster related. So for those in the oyster business or the millions of eaters who just love oysters and want to feel like experts at the raw bar, this is the podcast for you.

Kevin: This is my inaugural episode of Oysterology, and I'm so excited to get it off the ground and deliver it to you. But I'll be honest, it's a little daunting to launch the first episode of a new podcast, sort of like teeing off at the crowded first hole of a golf course where you're not sure you really belong.

Kevin: But eventually you just have to settle into your stance and take that swing. And with my inaugural guest, all of my nerves about shankin that ball into the woods have disappeared. That's because I have the immense pleasure of welcoming distinguished author and journalist Rowan Jacobson to the show.

Kevin: With a career spanning over two decades, Rowan is the kind of journalist and writer so many of us dream of becoming. being. He [00:02:00] finds important topics and dives deep into them, revealing intricate relationships between nature, food, and culture in a way that educates, entertains, and inspires. He's published a dozen books covering interesting topics ranging from wild chocolate and its underworld heirloom apples, the honey bees importance to the world.

Kevin: Oil spills in the Gulf, unknown shorelines of remote places, true haunting tales from history, truffles and the dogs who hunt for them, and most recently, sunscreen and the sun. His writing also regularly appears in such publications as the New York Times, Outside, The Atlantic, Harper's, Mother Jones, the Boston Globe, and so many more.

Kevin: But perhaps Rowan's most recognized area of expertise is oysters. He's published multiple books and countless articles about oysters across America and around the world. He's the guy who wrote A Geography of Oysters, The Connoisseur's Guide to Oyster Eating in North America, [00:03:00] which, if you don't already know, is a seminal work and winner of the prestigious James Beard Award that has become the definitive guide for oyster enthusiasts and newbies alike.

Kevin: But he didn't stop there. Rowan's published at least two other oyster focused books. Countless articles and has given lectures and television appearances around the world on the subject. He also developed an exhaustive web based guide to specific oysters everywhere, which if you haven't seen, you definitely should.

Kevin: To anyone who wants to really understand oysters, Rowan is one of the world's top experts. And oh yeah, he's a hell of an interesting guy too. 

Kevin: In our kickoff conversation today, I'll cover a broad range of topics, including just what is an oyster and why the romantic appeal, the meaning of merroir, chewing versus swallowing, eating oysters during months ending with an R, seafood as brain food, searching for wild oysters, how oysters have driven [00:04:00] human expansion in the world and so much more about oysters with my guest Rowan Jacobson.

INTERVIEW
Kevin: Rowan, thank you so much for being my guest on Oysterology today. It is an honor to have you here. You're the author of at least nine or 10 books, at least three of which focus on oysters and oyster culture, and I think maybe even more. Um, and one of them was a winner of the James Beard award in 2007.

Kevin: That was, connoisseurs guide to oyster eating in America. Uh, incredible book. When I first started learning about oysters a couple of years ago, I started with your books and except for the oyster farmers, I was meeting new more than anybody else anywhere because of , your work. So congratulations on everything you've written about oysters and so much more. So welcome. 

Rowan: That's great to hear. And, and actually, uh, I like hearing that because that was why I wrote that first book is to be, you know, to, to sort of be that starter pack that could get you get anyone up to speed. [00:05:00] Because I had, when I'd first gotten excited about oysters, I'd looked for a book that could do that and it didn't exist.

Rowan: So I was like, all right, if I want this, there's probably other people who want this. So that's a good sign that I should leap in. 

Kevin: Really established you as one of the true broad oyster experts in America today. And there's not that many of you. So it really kind of celebrates oysters, not just as a food, but as part of our culture and our history and environment.

Kevin: But tell me a little bit about your background and how you became interested in this topic and what led you into this world of oysters? 

Rowan: Um, you know, I had, um. Um, I had gotten interested in oysters as like a preteen, um, my dad was from Baltimore. So he, he had grown up in the Chesapeake and had always liked oysters.

Rowan: But then I was born in Vermont. Oysters were not on my radar, kid growing up in the seventies. Uh, but then we moved to Florida in [00:06:00] like 1980 and we were in central Florida. There were wild oysters , that were still growing out in some of the estuaries. And of course, there was this like thriving culture of cheap oyster bars in Florida and all around the Gulf Coast.

Rowan: So my dad started bringing the kid, you know, we'd go for a day at the beach and then we'd swing by the, , the little oyster bar, the local oyster bar for a happy hour on the way home. And, you know, and they were like, Oysters for 10 cents a piece and, you know, everything else was super cheap too.

Rowan: And, uh, so then I, you know, I was just the right age. I was like 13. So, uh, it's, I've, I've seen a lot of other accounts and heard a lot of other accounts of people who in that same little era, when you're leaving childhood behind and you're ready to start acting a little bit more like a grownup, like, People who hit oysters right then, it can often be a very, um, impactful experience for them.

Rowan: You know, that first [00:07:00] oyster is like, okay, I'm not acting like a kid anymore. 

Kevin: What was your, , , sensation with your first oyster? 

Rowan: You know, , like most people, the first one feels not like a natural thing to do. You definitely need to, uh, take the leap, like steal yourself. Um, but then I was, I was, you know, up for number two. Shortly after, and of course, like many other beginners, I was using saltines and a lot of cocktail sauce. Um, but it was just a great experience. It was, it was unlike anything I, you know, was used to as a kid growing up in the seventies, , in America. Um, and I think, uh, I didn't think this at the time, certainly, but looking back now, I, you know, I think that, okay, that was my first, , hint that, , food could be this really like poignant experience that connects you to the rest of the world, to the non human world.

Kevin: So you started relatively young eating oysters. Let me ask you the most fundamental question of all, and that is what Is [00:08:00] an oyster and how would you describe it? What does it mean to you? 

Rowan: Well, how literal would you want me to take that? Like, uh, can we do the basics of shellfish or? 

Kevin: Sure. Let's start there. Why not? 

Rowan: Yeah. So an oyster, like there are several types of shellfish that are, you know, have been a major part of human cuisine, oysters, clams, scallops, to a lesser extent, I would say mussels. , and they're all bivalves are all these, these animals that evolved to make these shells out of calcium carbonate, basically, um, as protection.

Rowan: And so they all, um, live inside their shells and they all eat plankton. Uh, so these microscopic plants and animals in the sea that they filter across their gills. So all day, they're just sitting in place and, eating plankton. And, you know, because they've got their, basically their bones on the outside, they all tend to be, you know, fully edible on the inside.

Rowan: , But oysters are, , sort of like [00:09:00] unique among the, , the various, , shellfish and that they really don't do much like scallops can swim. Like it looks crazy. It looks like, a set of teeth, like clattering through the water, but they'll like, they can clamp their shells and squirt, , water out their hinge ends so that scallops can actually swim pretty well.

Rowan: Clams can dig pretty well. So they have this, , foot for digging down into the dirt. They like to get underneath the bottom of the. bay that they're in. , so they have a lot of sort of like chewier texture. If you've ever eaten a clam, you know, there's a lot to chew on. Mussels have a lot going on with their little threads and stuff.

Rowan: Oysters have none of that. They're like the, the super tender veal of the sea or something, because they really don't, they never move. They don't have any of those fancy apparatus that the other shellfish have. They just eat and, open and close their shells. So they have a little muscle in the middle for opening and closing their shells, but it's much more small and, , tender than say the one that we eat in a scallop.

Rowan: Their trick to survival is that they're really intertidal. They're very happy closing down those shells [00:10:00] and spending half their time or nearly half their time on the upper part of the intertidal zone. Um, and that's sort of their defense against predation, like starfish, uh, and snails and a lot of the things that like to eat oysters, they can't be exposed for long periods of time like that.

Rowan: So the way oysters keep the predation down to a minimum is to be in that intertidal zone where their predators are going to be forced to go deep during low tide. Um, but anyway, they are the shellfish that's best raw because , they've got so little going on. 

Kevin: What does a oyster mean to you?

Rowan: I think to me and a lot of other people, they are this embodiment of the sea, like almost the purest embodiment of the sea that you can think of. Um, and they're like, they, their flavor is gentle and it's just very sea like their bodies are 60 percent sea. So it makes sense, but they really, , take that essence of the ocean. And, you know, a lot of us, I think have a, a built in romantic love for the sea, for the coast. And [00:11:00] they kind of package that into a bite size morsel, which is pretty amazing. And I think that has, , Always been at the root of, people's love of them. 

Kevin: You wrote in one of your books that eating an oyster was like kissing the sea on the lips, which 

Rowan: I quote, I'm quoting somebody. Quoting a French poet on that? But it's a great, it's a great quote. Yeah, it really is because it also touches on that other thing about oysters, which is that, that hint of erotic appeal that they have. And I think this is partly why they've become like, they've taken over all the, all the, um, raw bars, all the happy hours of America is because it always feels slightly naughty to be eating them too.

Rowan: Like they're like, you know, they're very soft on the inside. They're very hard on the outside. So you feel like you're like getting somewhere kind of secretive when you're eating them. So I think that's the other part of the appeal. 

Kevin: The thing that's amazing about oysters to me, in addition to their taste, is the ecological impact that they have in the sea. And I'd love you to talk a little bit about that and the role that you see oysters [00:12:00] playing, in marine environments. 

Rowan: Yeah, and that's, , that's another big part of why, uh, people have become interested in them lately. On sort of a big picture scale is because they really are sort of these ecosystem engineers of that intertidal zone where they live.

Rowan: And I think the types of shells that they make and the fact that they like to, when they're babies, they like to attach to another oyster. Um, so they tend to build these, these reefs that are kind of the, , temperate equivalent of coral reefs in the tropics. So it's this really craggy, heterogeneous, material that has lots of good little hiding places in it. So it becomes like the, the condos of the sea, uh, where a lot of little creatures can find shelter , and live out their lives. Oyster reefs, people recognized too late after we had like destroyed most of them are key to a healthy, , marine ecosystem in , , these temperate zones and also because [00:13:00] they, act like breakwaters.

Rowan: So they're, they're, um, they're good for protecting estuaries and shorelines. , so now there's this big push to get them back, , in these places where they used to be incredibly abundant, places like Chesapeake Bay, New York Harbor. 

Kevin: Couple of hundred years ago, you could barely sail a boat up the Chesapeake without running a ground on oyster castles or oyster reefs. And then it's all gone now. 

Rowan: Oh yeah, they talked about like 20 miles of oyster reefs in the James River. And then at some point you did, you just had to stop because, uh, it got too shallow and then you would just hit oyster reefs and people would, would like spend the night on these oyster reefs. You know, it was low tide. You could just be standing on them. Yeah. We're talking like the John Smith era, like 1607, 1608. 

Kevin: There's been a lot of friction, I think even more recently in the Chesapeake with traditional oyster harvesting and , the old, , sailing oyster boats in the Chesapeake. I don't know if they were skipjacks or other boats that would dredge for oysters. [00:14:00] And, I kind of see there being two types of oyster production today, one is that traditional kind of harvesting of wild oysters or oyster beds in the open water and the other is aquaculture and actually farming the oysters. What do you think about the friction between those two industries? 

Rowan: Yeah, it's interesting that there is friction there because in a sense there shouldn't be like they should almost be complimentary. , ideally, the oysters would still be so abundant that we could afford to, you know, Harvest a significant amount from the wild and eat them without, destroying, , the existing reason. And it's kind of like, it's like interest, you know, in your bank account. Like if your bank account is big enough, then you can live off the interest that gets produced every year without hurting your, core capital. , but the more you dig into that, , seed, , that nest egg, the less interest you're going to make, the less you have to eat. And so then the more , the nest egg disappears. And that's what happened with oysters is we just over harvested them. So then even though they're trying to reproduce the. couldn't make a significant difference. So that was when we had to switch to [00:15:00] aquaculture, , which was a big, big success. And I don't think people realize like kind of how amazing it is that we managed to, , successfully switch to farming these animals and that they farmed very happily. , and that it was, , unlike some other types of farming, it was actually, , probably beneficial for the environment. So the aquaculture has, has worked really well. The problems happen where you, when, and there's a few places where you still do have, , a wild fishery of, of any size. , cause then that starts kind of getting a bad name.

Rowan: Um, people enjoyed the aquaculture and of course the, the fishermen doing the wild fishery, there's a huge tradition there and they want to keep doing what they're doing. , , but people kind of want the fishermen to just lay off the resource and let it grow. So that, then you get these tensions, but in theory it should be, they should be supportive. Like we eat the farmed oysters while we let , the reefs rebuild and then maybe someday we'll be able to eat the wild oysters again. 

Kevin: Have you been involved much in oyster restoration efforts? There's a lot of them going on, like the Billion Oyster Project in New York [00:16:00] and in the Chesapeake. Have you had much to do with that?

Rowan: A little bit, yeah. I like occasionally speak at, at their events. But yeah, those are two, projects that are going. Pretty well now, I would say a billion oyster project in New York Harbor. Great name, right? Um, they'll never make it to a billion oysters. I don't think that was, it was like, 

Kevin: it's a good target.

Rowan: It's a good target. May as well set your target high. , that's right. But it worked great. Like what it really does, of course, is, um, even if they only get. 50 million oysters in the water or whatever. And I think they might be at 50 million. I haven't checked lately, but you get a lot of buy in from the public, like schools do their part and the media pays attention and you can do fundraisers. So, , it's a great way to get people thinking about the things they should be thinking about. 

Kevin: They even got Prince William to wade down into the water a year or two ago, as I recall. 

Rowan: Yeah. People love it. Right., so it has lots of, of little like residual benefits., I think a project like that, Chesapeake is kind of a very [00:17:00] different, uh, story because it's like a big government funded project when the goal really is like the scale is much larger than what's going on in New York.

Rowan: And the goal really is to reestablish that oyster fishery because that really was the last one on the east coast that still existed in any size. And it's because the Chesapeake has always been such a incredibly productive area for oysters. And they've struggled for a while because that ecosystem had really changed. It had kind of flipped to a different regime where the oysters that existed. Um, would be eaten by rays and other things that were in the Bay at levels they never had been before. So just the amount of predation would really, really hurting the oysters. Um, and the amount of sediment, like they need to, they need to sort of get past a certain level. of things that are knocking them back before they can produce enough interest every year. Um, so it took a long time, but they were making progress now, I think.

Kevin: And then with the pollution that's been allowed to just [00:18:00] leach into the Chesapeake from all the farming in the cities and everything around is kind of double whammy the whole thing, I think.

Rowan: Yeah. And they really haven't made much progress on, on that one. Yeah. There's a lot of, a lot of septic system. Well, this is that Bay, like you look at the watershed for that Bay and then you look at the American East coast and that's a monumental issue to tackle. 

Kevin: I was recently down on the East coast of Florida in the Indian river area. And that's a, a very large estuary. And it was interesting because there were only three oyster farms there. And they were very small. And I was wondering, you know, it looks kind of like the tropical version of the Chesapeake Bay. It's very shallow. It's got lost lots of inlets and that sort of thing. And it's like, why is this area not more of an oyster producing area? And I haven't found an answer for it. It's big for other shellfish like clams, but, , not a lot of oyster production. It seems to me with the warmer water and the [00:19:00] nutrient richness of that whole Indian river, it would be kind of like Chesapeake Bay 2. 0. 

Rowan: Yeah, totally. And that's, that's kind of where I got my, my start kind of right in, right in that area. But yeah, all the conditions are there for growing a lot of oysters for whatever reason. , it, where it's taken a hold on sort of more closer to the panhandle, , in Florida, they're having some success there. but yeah, that whole Indian River area should be a very good, and you see wild oysters there, so they've always been there.

Kevin: So if the wild oysters are growing, then presumably aquaculture should be successful as well, at least if it's done responsibly. 

Rowan: Yeah, it's a sign. 

Kevin: You wrote in the Living Shoreline something I thought was very interesting when it comes to people understanding the impact of oysters both historically and going forward. You had said that we're living in a diminishing world and that we believe that what we experienced when we were kids is how it has always been. You used a great example [00:20:00] of a kind of a threadbare carpet. , that, , we saw as children and never had seen it in its new good condition and that therefore it was almost impossible to pass on to our children when we give them that threadbare carpet, the fact that it used to be thick and rich and keep people warm. How do you think that relates to the way people see the Chesapeake and our coastal waters today?

Rowan: Yeah, I it's just human nature that, you know, that whatever you experienced first, basically your grandparents world, , you can't imagine that things were different before that, really. Like, you know, you, you get history in school and you understand things are different, but you can't really, conceptualize it in your head that well, I think, if you don't have like examples, so, and so we have, we have these historical accounts of how incredibly abundant, , the oyster populations were, how much fish was in all of , , these bays and estuaries and how clear the water was. And it was just, [00:21:00] it was a completely different world. , So, I think for most of us, we need to be able to see it. We need some example, that we can really, feel with all our senses to, to understand what's possible or what was possible that, there are like other, set points to the system that we have no idea.

Rowan: So then, so yeah, like building an oyster project, maybe it does make sense to set the bar really high, um, so that people can start thinking about it differently. 

Kevin: Right. So you spent a lot of time, , focusing on gulf oysters as well. Is that right? 

Rowan: I did. Yeah. Because I, I sort of, I felt like I sort of gave them short, , shift in that, in that first book. , because, because that was a, like, that was really a guide for somebody sitting in an oyster bar, right? Right. Um, 

Rowan: right. 

Rowan: Like, what are these 20 options that I have? and at that time you'd never saw Gulf oysters in oyster bars outside of the Gulf itself. And in the Gulf, you only saw Gulf oysters. But then I got after that, I, I realized I [00:22:00] really hadn't, uh, paid enough attention to that whole culture, , of, , Gulf oyster, , appreciation. And I, and also that's the, the greatest remaining wild oyster fishery. , so then I started, , paying a lot more attention to it and, and actually wrote a book, , called Shadows On The Gulf after the oil spill, which wasn't really focused on oysters but of course, if you're writing about the Gulf of Mexico and that coastline, the oysters Pop up 

Kevin: Hard not to talk about oysters.

Kevin: Well, I found in the Pacific Northwest, I would always ask oyster farmers about, , Gulf oysters. And they always get a really bad rap. And I guess it's because of the pollution, but also the warm waters and that sort of thing. And yet you go to the Gulf and like you say, everybody's eating them. Usually I think with saltines, but, yeah, , you know, I don't understand that. I mean, assuming the water is clean, they may get larger because of the warmer water that maybe they grow faster, but any other reasons to kind of bad mouth, , Gulf [00:23:00] oysters, the way people seem to, 

Rowan: Yeah, they were all, they're all historical reasons and they're all, they all are sort of like unnecessary now because it's, so I think, yeah, the gulf has like maybe the greatest upside of any oyster area, any oyster coast, , in the U S now. but so what used to be the case, like, Basically, everyone else wiped out their, their wild oysters and started growing oysters. And oysters, like by their nature, and this goes back to what we were talking about earlier, where they need to set up shop in areas that will somehow keep their predators at bay a little bit.

Rowan: So it tends to be like midway up the intertidal zone. But they also go for areas that are not super high in salinity. Like they will do best at places that have relatively low salinity, a little bit of salt, but it's, you know, these estuaries where you're getting a lot of fresh water mixed in. And that's because again, their predators can't take that. They can't take the exposed and they also can't take that low salt environment. So they can really flourish in. Like the ocean is like maybe 32 [00:24:00] parts per thousand salt oysters are very happy in like 10 parts per thousand salt, which is like Baltimore, you know, or anywhere near the Mississippi river.

Rowan: So part of the reason they always did so incredibly well near the Mississippi is because of all that fresh water was really diluting the salinity level, but a non salty oyster. For most of us, it just doesn't taste as good as a salty oyster. So, they grow great, but they're a little bland in money. So, once everybody else had wiped out their oysters, and was farming oysters, once you're farming an oyster, you can do it anywhere, because predation's not an issue. They're protected. , so people were farming oysters in pretty salty places, and then everyone in oyster bars in Seattle or New York, , got this taste for these delicious, salty, savory oysters. Um, meanwhile, you had these big, flabby, muddy things coming out of the Gulf. Um, they were wild. It was like the great success story that they hadn't destroyed their wild oysters. But they really just didn't taste as good as, , other oysters. They're great for like [00:25:00] cookery. And that's what you see in New Orleans is like doing things with oysters rather than eating them French style, raw, you know, unadorned. , so that, that was partly why the Gulf oysters got such a bad name was because they hadn't killed them all. So they were these wild unsalty things. , they also, there's just a different attitude toward safety, like health, safety down in the Gulf coast. , and you see this in lots of areas, not just oysters, but they also didn't tend, , and this has changed somewhat, but. They , didn't tend to have such a strong insistence on refrigeration, , along that, that coast. So 

Kevin: Everybody's got to die sometime. 

Rowan: Exactly. Like, you know, the strong ones survive and then they don't have to worry about it. And they also, those warm waters carry a particular bacteria, , called Vibrio vulnificus that can occasionally kill people. , So that combination made the Gulf oysters less appealing to people in other parts of the country because they didn't taste as good and they were slightly more likely to kill you. but, then, then they really did start to, , struggle, those wild [00:26:00] oysters started to struggle in the Gulf coast for various reasons. It really kind of started around that time of the BP oil spill. , so then suddenly this area that had never had to try to farm oysters, Started trying to farm them and that really, , transformed, , what people thought about Gulf oysters or what people should have thought about Gulf oysters, at least because it turned out that there wasn't something just like magically bad about the oysters from that coast. It was just where they were coming from , and how they were, living their lives. You take an oyster on that coast, get it away from the rivers, put it somewhere salty, grow it in aquaculture so it's not like with all his friends in the bottom of a muddy estuary, just trying to survive, trying to stay above the mud. And , it turns out beautifully. You get beautiful oysters, very similar to the ones we see elsewhere on the East coast, except they get plump faster because of, you know, The warm water and the amount of nutrients in the water. So Gulf oysters, a farm Gulf oyster is competitive with , any oyster out there, , but we [00:27:00] still have this, like, you know, it'll take 20 years before that message slowly spreads.

Kevin: And there may be a little bit of protectionism attitude going on from some of the farmers in places like the Pacific Northwest as well. 

Rowan: No question. Everybody is very patriotic to their own oyster. 

Kevin: You know, in Chincoteague, where I'm just beginning to grow oysters myself, , there are very few, , estuaries, freshwater sources. It's all very salty. So, you know, you say that the ocean is typically 32 to 35, parts per thousand. , , the oysters in Chincoteague, they call them, , Chincoteague salts for a reason. They're typically like 28 or 29 parts per thousand. They're , really briny. 

Rowan: Yeah. Pure ocean. And famously so.

Kevin: It is hard to then suddenly go to this kind of muddy, , like you described, flavorless oyster, but you did something which I think is really fascinating you started a website called Oysterator, where you actually [00:28:00] compiled data, both, The oyster, but also flavor and tasting data regarding most of the oysters available commercially today.

Kevin: So as I understand it, there are basically five. Species of oysters that are commercially available, at least in the United States today. Can you tell me a little bit about those and tell me about this Oysterater website? 

Rowan: Yeah, so I, I've always been interested in wine and I always loved, those big Atlas of wine books where you crack them open and you'd get all the regions of France, a lot of different name. You, you had the maps showing where they were, right. And you had to learn all this, um, this lingo and like this backstory. Um, to understand why the wines from this area tasted different from that area, you know, terroir,, the word they use in the wine industry. , so I kind of wanted to do that for oysters, so I, , a friend and I just sort of as a labor of love, we just started like every oyster we tasted, we threw it up on this [00:29:00] website and, you know, use Google maps to link to it so you can see exactly where those oysters were coming from.

Rowan: And you would just get all the specs on that oyster and then there was a place where you could leave your, you know, thought it was basically like Yelp for oysters only with a better map component as well. , And it took off. And so a lot, a lot of people, hundreds of people have posted reviews on it. So you can kind of anywhere, anytime you're in an oyster bar and you'd see some oyster, you don't know, you can just look it up on, uh, Oysterater and, , See like what it is, where it's coming from, , and add your own impression. So yeah, so the idea is that it will help people sort of like, it's like this extended, like crawl around America through its oysters. 

Kevin: You must've eaten a hell of a lot of oysters to do that. And to come up with, descriptions of the flavor profiles and that sort of thing. . All the oyster.

Rowan: There's always more. And one, uh, small bone I have to pick with the industry is they keep changing the names all the time. Like, [00:30:00] the naming is out of control with like every single person wants to, , come up with a new trademark to name for their oyster, which is understandable from a business perspective, but if you look at French wines, they were traditionally named for the region.

Rowan: And that was really helpful. And there were certain rules. Like if you wanted to call, you know, your wine burgundy, you had to use Pinot Noir grapes. You had to follow certain practices. So then it made sense this, there was this established body of knowledge that you could kind of count on With oysters there is none of that. So it's a, it's a free for all. So, um, back in the day, you would, call oysters by the Bay name, so it'd be a Chincoteague or it would be. Uh, an Apalachicola or whatever, um, now it tends to be a trademark names. You can't trace it just as well. So it's hard to keep up with like has, I forget like 350 oysters on there, but you know, like 10 of them will actually be from the same Bay, just different providers in that Bay. so I have technically not, I've, I've probably eaten oysters from all the major days [00:31:00] in America, but I can't keep up with the name. 

Kevin: Well, and what's fascinating is, you've got, you know, Like you say, 350 or so oysters identified an oysterator, but really there are only five more or less. I assume , that you're counting in terms of the oyster species and only two of those are actually indigenous to the united States. Is that right? 

Rowan: That's exactly right. So on the East coast, we have the Eastern oyster. , Crassostrea virginica, , which is the only oyster native to the east coast of the U. S. And on the west coast, you have the Olympia, which was the only oyster native to the west coast of North America. , and then we have three other introduced species. That you see either a little bit or a lot. But, yeah, that's it. So like, and each, each of those five really does have a very distinctive profile to it. And then you'll get differences depending on where they grow and how they grow. But yeah, they each have. Their own character for sure. 

Kevin: So the eastern oyster kind of stretches down the east coast from Nova Scotia or [00:32:00] even beyond that, all the way down around Florida and into the gulfs. Gulf oysters are basically eastern oysters.

Kevin: Is that right? 

Rowan: That's right. Yeah, they are. Um, I wouldn't be surprised if they were like a, Slightly different subspecies or something because they just come out different down there. Like kind of like we were referring to earlier, they come out big with really thick shells and maybe it's partly the environment, but I wouldn't be surprised if they, they've adapted slightly to that.

Rowan: Right. But yeah, but it's all, it's all the same species from the Maritimes up in Canada, all the way down through the Gulf coast. 

Rowan: I

Kevin: find it remarkable because, you know, you'll get an Eastern oyster in Rhode Island, and then you'll have one in, Chincoteague. And if you didn't understand it, you wouldn't have any idea that they were the same species. They look different, they're shaped different, they taste different, and that's all. Because of , the merroir before. Tell me a little bit about merroir. 

Rowan: Yeah, it's funny. So, , we mentioned terroir a little while ago, which is classic French wine word, which means taste of place. And the French used the term terroir to [00:33:00] refer to the ways that the place. Influences the flavor of the wine and it can be often they're what they're talking about is soil and geology. But it's also climate. , and it's also it can be cultural stuff to like what type of grape are you growing? And how are you growing it? , so when I was first getting interested in oysters and other, and they're kind of having this renaissance in the U S we were all talking about terroir and realizing that even more so than, than grapes, oysters really expressed their place very profoundly in their character.

Rowan: But terroir, of course, like the root of that word is, you know, terrain terra firma dirt. So that didn't really make sense for oysters. And so merroir is this, I don't know, this like, you know, Portmanteau type of word, um, mare, of course being French for sea. It doesn't make any literal sense, but it's a merroir is the sea version of terroir and people always try to claim that I, coined that word, but I definitely did not coin that word. I was even like, I couldn't take [00:34:00] that word seriously for a while. I, there's several other people who have all claimed, , responsibility for coining it, but it has really taken off and it is totally established now. So. I have, , dredgingly come around 

Kevin: the first time I read the word I actually laughed out loud saying that's ridiculous. I mean, I understand terroir and the principles of terroir, but come on, give me a break. And then as I learned more about oysters and tasted more and more oysters, I realized that it makes complete sense. 

Rowan: . Yeah. Cause you think about what an oyster is, it's just filtering its environment through it at a rate. That, no grape could compare to. So yeah, they are, the oyster is just going, is nothing but merroir in a sense. You know, 

Kevin: you described something about merroir, which I thought was really kind of very pointed. And that was, you said, "the world of oysters is a world of magic and mystery where one small bite can transport you to the place that the oyster was born, evoking the ocean, the landscape, the culture of its origin." [00:35:00] That to me kind of sums up. the idea of merroir, 

Bubbles: Yeah. And it's, what's amazing is that you don't have to be on the coast to get that. Like, it's great if you are right. Like. You can be at Hog Island and Tomales Bay, Tom Island Oyster Bar, and eat the oysters while looking at the oysters in the water.

Bubbles: You can do the same thing in, like, Cancal, France. I was just there, and it's really fun to, be right on top of the oyster farms that you're, as you're eating them. But, you can also be in St. Louis, you can be in Denver, and, You've got this little bit of the sea that has been transported to you intact. Right. It's because oysters in their shell in refrigeration, they can last a month out of the water. Right. , so you've got the environment, you've got the, the creature, you've got a little bit of the sea in there. So it's, it's extremely transportive for people. , and I think that's a large part of why you get that , sort of wild energy at the table. When suddenly two dozen oysters appear. 

Kevin: It does, change the mood at the table and there is something kind of sexy about them and just, [00:36:00] you know, . 

Rowan: Yeah. People are just respond to that all the time. That sexiness, right. 

Kevin: What's the best way in your view to, to taste an oyster? Like how should a newbie who hasn't had a lot of oysters taste it?

Rowan: Yeah, that's interesting. Cause, , like for all those reasons I was just talking about, I, I. Almost always eat them straight up with nothing on them, , but with a good drink to follow them up, whether it's beer or wine or whatever, but, if you're a total newbie, as I was talking about with my childhood experiences, it's, it's an unnatural act, putting that first oyster in your mouth, it's, it's totally fine to, , use anything that helps. So, you know, cocktail sauce is sort of a classic or, , Tabasco or another hot sauce. , in France, they use mignonette, which is, , vinegar , and pepper and shallots. , and all these things sort of bring strangely sea, , character of the oyster back to something that you're more familiar with because you've got a vinegar component or you've got a sweet or tomato component. So it's just, it, it makes it more familiar to people. And so that can be a good way to start. And of course the , other thing is it's good to [00:37:00] start with small oysters. , there's been a trend over the past 20, 30 years of oysters. It's getting smaller, , as served in restaurants, , and the old school oyster people get really annoyed by that.

Rowan: They liked the ones that were the size of your hand. But pretty, but like nine out of 10 people modern oyster eaters really prefer the smaller ones. Like they're not looking to fill up on oysters. They're looking to just get , that hint of sexiness and, then get on with their evening in a sense. So smaller is a lot easier for your first oyster. You know, a little sauce doesn't hurt. 

Kevin: I know that some people, when they have it for the first time, they swallow it whole, and that offends my senses because they're missing out on the whole point. , do you think you should chew your oyster? 

Rowan: For sure. You should chew your oyster. Yeah. And I don't know. Like I, I heard that growing up too, like just, I mean, you can swallow them, but again, it's just, it's for, that's if you're like being dared to eat an oyster and you really don't want to, you just want to get it over with as quickly as possible. Um, but yeah, no, the, the flavor of the oyster really comes out when you chew it. So, [00:38:00] yeah. Yeah, go ahead and chew. You don't have to chew forever, but a few chews doesn't hurt. 

Kevin: You've associated oysters often with wine, like you were mentioning before with terroir, but also the flavor profile that really does make an oyster tasting experience similar to a wine tasting experience.

Rowan: Yeah. And I've led a lot of, seminars where we'll have like half a dozen or even a dozen different oysters. On a plate. And so we can really walk through people through it and and taste the differences because just like any anything else. If you're tasting them in completely separate settings and times, it's hard to really clue into the differences, but if you've got a and B right next to you, it's easy to like, to tell the differences. So, , people really have fun tasting different oysters and starting to get a sense of what those differences are. And then of course you can pair each one with a different drink. And so then by the time you're 12 or done, you're a little bit smashed and you're having a great time. So they're, they're always popular. Those seminars.

Kevin: Yeah. And the textures are different too, [00:39:00] depending on the oysters, not just the flavors. So people talk about slimy oysters. I have never had a slimy oyster. I don't actually think there's slime in oysters. I think that's part of the fear factor. 

Rowan: It is. It is. And I don't know, , people have funny fears, but yes, I think there's, when they're saying slimy, they're actually, what they're actually experiencing is slippery, which is a lot better. 

Kevin: Yeah, it does sound a little better. 

Rowan: Oysters are definitely slippery, but, , Yeah, they're not slimy. Um, but yeah, the texture, um, is a key part of it. And you like, I like a little bit of crunch in the oyster. Some oysters are just in much better shape than others, as they're served. And the ones that are full, , and plump are just gonna have a, a much more satisfying chew to them. There's also one of the five species we eat, which is called a balon or a European flat, which is the native oyster of Europe. is way crunchier than the rest of them. You really do have to chew on that one a little bit. That's part of the pleasure in that one.

Kevin: They have a much stronger flavor, than the typical half shells you'd get here in the States [00:40:00] too, right? 

Rowan: They really do. They're quite, they're strong. They're astringent. Like, , it's sometimes described as like a A walnut skin, , type of a finish or, uh he'll not skin. French love them. 

Kevin: Do you think that there's a difference in, in terms of mouth feel or texture, acceptability, , between Americans, , and other cultures with regard to oysters, you know, we tend in the States to shy away from. Slippery things like you mentioned, is that, does that, it sounds like that maybe has an impact in terms of how people feel about them here versus the rest of the world. 

Rowan: I think for sure. I was, I was just in France, as I said, and eating a lot of oysters and it was, it was really like the French, um, they like their oysters bigger than Americans now do. And they like them full , and kind of strong. , so that's, uh, The U S so as sort of like a young oyster culture, , is still, there's a lot of [00:41:00] newbies, , who like are really looking for oysters that are, , almost not there at all, you know, where they can get the experience of tilt, tilting the shell in their mouth, um, without much else.

Rowan: And, um, yeah, yeah. So you go to France and you see like every oyster is, , You know, something to be reckoned with a little bit more.

Kevin: Oh, I like that description. Well, , the, , the thing that I think also bothers people, although when I serve oysters to newbies, I try not to point this out to them unless they ask specifically. And that is when you take a half shell and you shuck it and slurp it down, it's a live animal. It's still alive. Yeah. And. I think that that bothers a lot of people, but why should it? They have no feelings. They have no sensation of pain or anything.

Rowan: As far as we know, as far as we know, , there's definitely as animals go, there's , not a whole lot going on with an oyster. They're definitely near the bottom of the complexity,, scale. And yeah, so if an oyster's shell is [00:42:00] closed, which it should be when it arrives at a restaurant or at your door. , the oyster is the one keeping that shell closed with its muscle. So that's a sign. If the oyster dies, then the shell will sort of naturally open. And that's a sign you should not eat that oyster because it's dead. , but yeah, so then the oyster is alive and keeping its shells shut. And then when you shuck it with your knife, um, in theory, if you're a surgeon with, a perfect scalpel, you're, you're cutting the muscle off the top and bottom shells to free the oyster.

Rowan: And in theory, you can do that without fatally wounding the oyster if you're really good. And I've seen people do this more often than not. If you're not the world's best shucker, , you're gonna, slice and dice the oyster a little bit in the shucking process, at which point , it's dying. We like, you know, by the second very quickly, so it's freshly killed though, at least.

Kevin: It's a fresh road kill or sea-kill Well, I have seen , and myself committed the heinous crime , of butchering innocent oysters inside their shell while shucking them. And when you see a [00:43:00] perfectly shucked oyster, it is a thing of beauty just floating in its liquor. But when you see a poorly one, it looks kind of like beige scrambled eggs 

Rowan: and then it's so that is something that, really need to work on in the U S , is sort of higher levels of shucking among the pros in the oyster bars. And there's a woman named Julie Chu. I don't know if you've met Julie Chu yet.

Rowan: With the Master Oyster Guild that she's started. 

Rowan: Exactly, exactly. And, um, so she's an oyster influencer, I guess you could say. , and she started this Master Oyster Guild as a way to raise the level of, , skill, , among, , The, , you know, the shuckers of America because it used to be there weren't that many oyster bars in America and the people shucking in them were pros like serious pros.

Rowan: They did it all day long, and you got those perfectly shucked oysters that you're talking about. , but , now that there's an oyster bar in every corner of every city, you have a lot of people who think they know what they're doing and have absolutely no training and they haven't done it that much. So you see a lot of mangled oysters out [00:44:00] there. 

Kevin: Yeah. , I understand in France, they don't generally cut off the bottom adductor muscle on the shell when they're shucking it. I read that it's , to prove that the oyster was fresh and alive or something like that. 

Rowan: Yeah. It's a funny, um, funny disconnect that between us and them. Like, yeah, if you, if you're in France, if you serve people, oysters that have, are cut off from the bottom shell, , They'll probably send them back because they'll be like, Hey, what are you trying to pull? So clearly at some point in French history, there was a whole bunch of chicanery going on where people were just getting like tubs of cheap oysters. , that had already been shucked and dumping them into shells that they had back in the kitchen and serving them. So then the tradition became you only get an oyster, you know, the top shell is cut off, but it's attached to its bottom shell as proof that this is a freshly shucked oyster. , and that, yeah, that is totally the case in France today. And then of course they serve you one of those little tiny cocktail forks with it so that you can get it off the [00:45:00] bottom. And the US, because again, we're, we're a young oyster culture, at least in terms of half shell eating. We never had those issues. , so we trust everyone. And, , so it's fully cut off and not to worry about it.

Kevin: , you had mentioned before that you like to eat , your oysters neat for the most part, which I'm the same way. And the more oysters I think people eat, the more. Purists they become in terms of how to eat them. , do you have , a favorite oyster recipe? 

Rowan: I have, I've included recipes in, , both of my two main oyster books. It's easy to overcook an oyster. They don't need much. , and then those proteins firm up, they get, Chewy sometimes or mushy like it's not good. So 

Kevin: I think the taste even changes quite noticeably if you cook them too much. 

Rowan: I agree like in France, you'd never see a cooked oyster. It just does not happen. But um I think like an, you know, an oyster stew, which is a classic recipe where you're basically just like heating up oysters, um, with a little cream and a little [00:46:00] paprika, like oyster stew can be really, really good. It's a, so there are, and a fried oyster if done right is great, but, um, it's easy to overcook them when you fry them or have them be really greasy. So you gotta get them just right. 

Kevin: I've never understood the concept , , of barbecuing oysters with a huge dollop of cheese in them, because you just don't taste the oyster at all. 

Rowan: Yeah. There's a lot of barbecued oyster, crimes being committed out there where, , Very strong sauces and lots of sauce. And yeah, like you say, lots of cheese. Oyster Rockefeller is sort of a classic, , another crime. , People love it. , in that case, the oyster is just adding a, like a little savory C note. So it's fine. , but yeah, if you're there for the oysters. Probably don't need to do any of that. 

Kevin: The only exception to that, that I've experienced so far, and I don't know if you've had the pleasure, is if you go to the French Laundry in Napa and they have that Oyster & Pearls dish on every meal, which is some kind of sabayon [00:47:00] with oysters. And I think. The flavor combination there is perfect. If you're going to add something to an oyster. 

Rowan: Yeah. And there again, you know, it's not, they, they, they're not overpowering it and they're really calling out the interesting textures together. So, , yeah. So it can be oyster cookery. It can be beautiful, but, yeah, just take, you need a light hand.

Kevin: a friend of mine and I took an eyedropper and put exactly three drops of Bombay Sapphire Star of India gin, which has kind of like Asian aromatics, three drops in an oyster, elevated it to heights previously unknown. Yeah, it was really, but again, it was a very light hand, like you say. 

Rowan: So yeah, a couple of things that, , that you just brought up there. , one is the eyedropper. , and you're seeing this trend in, the really serious oyster places that are totally on their game is they won't give you your mignonette or whatever your sauce is in a bowl anymore. Like you used to get it because then people will just like, you know, spoonful after spoonful.

Rowan: [00:48:00] Exactly. And they got sick of saying to people, you only need like three drops, right? Three drops out of the spoon, because just even that much vinegar completely changes the flavor of the oyster. So then they started literally delivering the Minionette in like little, in like little medicine bottles with eyedroppers.

Rowan: And it's great. And it's cool in the middle of, you know, in the middle of your oysters on, on the ice, you've got your, um, little medicine bottle. Um, but, but that makes a lot of sense. Cause then people, Don't overdo it as much. So I love the, I love the eyedropper idea. Then the other thing you mentioned is booze, right?

Rowan: So gin, Bombay Sapphire gin, um, it's great with oysters. Um, and there's like booze can be really good with oysters, even as the sauce. Like, , I like gin, a few drops of gin on an oyster. Like I was down in, , in Oaxaca, , last, uh, winter reporting on a, uh, Mezcal story, uh, for business week and. , got quite a, quite a little, uh, taste for mezcal while doing the story.

Kevin: That sounds like a pretty good gig to go right about. 

Rowan: It was, it was really fun. I fell hard [00:49:00] from mezcal, but then, um, so then I actually teamed up with a guy who's a mezcal importer, um, because he and I were both like, you know, oysters, mezcal, it seems like could work really well. , so we played around, um, A lot of different pairings of oysters with mescal, but then also a few drops of mescal as your, uh, your sauce on your oyster can be, uh, really, really tasty to you get that. I'm going to have to try that, you know? Yeah. It's better than scotch. 

Kevin: I'm thinking, I'm thinking, uh, pisco also, uh, Peruvian pisco would probably be very good, which is kind of like mescal, except from grapes rather than from, yeah. 

Rowan: Pisco sour on the side as your, as your drink of choice can, can be pretty nice with oysters too.

Kevin: But Pisco is sour on the side of anything as far as I'm concerned. So one of the things, , that you see a lot, and I think it's maybe, uh, as the weather turns warmer, at least on the East coast is you see, , oysters that Are very creamy. [00:50:00] And, that really turns a lot of people off. And when I've served oysters like that to people and they ask about the cream, I also generally try not to explain it to them until after they've eaten the oyster and enjoyed it. Have you experienced much in the way of creamy oysters? 

Rowan: Yeah, for sure. And that's, that's just the nature of, of an oyster is, , they re like all shellfish reproduce, they'll produce a lot of either sperm or eggs, depending on which sex they are. , and then, , they're broadcast, spawners. So they then just, they rely on the water column, which is something you can do in the ocean. You can't do on land is you can just it. Shoot out your eggs and sperm into the water and let them meet up , in the water and go from there. , , and oysters like to produce, mostly they like to reproduce when the water is at its warmest. , cause that's the best chance for the larva to survive and there's lots of stuff to eat in the ocean at that time of year. , so generally what you'll see, is that in summer, , the oysters will just [00:51:00] fill with gonad, fill with sperm or eggs. , and then, , midsummer or whatever, then they'll spawn. , And after that, they, , you know, they've put a huge amount of their energy reserves into making, , those that sperm or eggs, they got nothing left. They're just like, You know, they're done for a while. They're just really skinny and yeah, they're spent. They got to lie there and slowly rebuild. So a creamy oyster is an oyster that's filled with sperm or eggs and preparing to spawn.

Rowan: , And it just tastes completely different instead of that sort of crisp, , body it's just like, it's, you know, like, um, uh, egg yolk or something. Yeah. Because it basically is. 

Kevin: Yeah. That's right. It basically is. I was talking to a nursery farmer just last week and we came up with a t shirt showing a creamy oyster and saying "Gametes Are Good Eats".

Kevin: Yeah. Encouraging people to, you know, eat the oyster even when it's creamy. 

Rowan: So this is, so this is the issue is, there are very few businesses that work as seasonal businesses. Like it's hard to make a seasonal business work. So oyster farmers really want [00:52:00] people to eat oysters year round. , so there are ways they can try to avoid the creamy thing, but they also just tell people to eat the oysters anyway.

Rowan: And some people do like creamy oysters, right? Like some people like raw egg yolks. , so there's no, it's perfectly okay to eat a creamy summer oyster. It's just a very different experience. Like in terms of texture in particular, , in France, and I, I'm sorry, I keep referring to France, but they sort of like wrote the book on oyster culture.

Rowan: They've been doing it for hundreds of years. So they sort of, they figured certain things out. They don't touch them in summer. Pretty much the, just the tourists in Paris eat them in summer. , they wait for the fall because what happens is after, like after the oyster is spent, it's done its job, it's spawned., then through the late summer and early fall, it's going to be slowly building up its strength again, like eating, , and building up its body. And it's preparing for winter where the water gets too cold. For it to feed. And it basically goes into hibernation, like a little tiny bear. , so it's going to be at its most plump when it's getting ready to go into hibernation. So it'll have all those fat reserves to live [00:53:00] off of for the winter. So a late fall, early summer, early winter oyster. Is when it's at its most plump , and sweet and delicious. 

Kevin: And yeah, cause that's glycogen basically. Exactly. Yeah. So it's nice and sweet. Yeah. Yeah. Is that why there is this old, wife's tale about only eat oysters in months that end with R. , Is, is that why that came about or is there some other reason? 

Rowan: Yeah, it was, uh, because of that natural cycle that they have. , and also because, and so months with R is everything but summer, basically. Like everything, May through August are the non R months. , but also like going back to what we were saying about the Gulf coast, like those are also the really hot months. So there was also a bit of a safety factor is like, if the oysters are sitting in a wooden barrel, like baking , in the a hundred degrees sun, that's also not the best, but yeah, it was mostly let them reproduce. , then let them get back in shape and that way you get better oysters and you also [00:54:00] get the next. crop of oysters, . 

Kevin: I know there's a genetic modification, like the creation of triploids that don't reproduce, kind of like the seedless watermelon, I guess. 

Rowan: Exactly, like the seedless watermelon. 

Kevin: Yeah. And that avoids that whole gamete creaminess sort of thing. But a lot of oyster growers, farmers, even aquacultures who are doing more modern techniques really tend to shy away from the triploids in favor of the more natural diploids.

Rowan: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I did not expect that to be the case. Like when triploids came along. Um, 15 years ago, I thought, okay, everyone's just going to grow triploids because they have three sets of chromosomes. So they're neither male nor female. So they don't, they don't think about reproduction at all, , which is also the case for seedless, watermelons, and some of these other, other plants that are, they're not normally sexed.

Rowan: So yeah, so you don't, have the creamy problem. They eat all the time. It seemed like, okay, everyone's going to use these. And, but like you say, , most growers I think have, , shied away from them. There's something a little off about them. Like they [00:55:00] don't tend to do as well. , I think growers have found, and they also maybe don't taste exactly the same. So they're, they're a pretty good stop gap solution for certain months, especially in the warmer growing regions. But that's pretty much a, I think we're seeing less of them than we used to, which really surprised me. 

Kevin: Yeah. That's my impression too. And it's a little bit tragic when you consider, especially on the East coast, where there's a lot of. Where it gets very warm in the summer, that the most popular time, when you think you would sell oysters is when people are on vacation at the beach. And it's actually the worst time to eat oysters. 

Rowan: It's the worst time to eat oysters, but it is the most popular time to eat oysters because yeah, because people, people are there. So, and they think they want to eat. whatever's from the sea. , so yeah, a lot of growers must, like, that's when they make their best sales is in summer, even though the oysters are not at their peak.

Kevin: Yeah. One of the ironies of it all, the cultural significance of oysters and the impact that they've had on human history is pretty astounding. And I know you've [00:56:00] written quite a lot about that. Tell me about your thoughts on what impact oysters have had on. Humanity, human history. 

Rowan: Yeah. I think people don't realize like the importance that shellfish communities in general have had for, human beings, in, you know, the early, early days of human beings, , before, we had great fishing technology, great boats. We could still, we could always wait out into the, into the shallows and pick shellfish. And you see that all, all across the globe is that, , like early, early hunter gather early homo sapien, , sites almost always have shells. Like if they're near the coast, there's a bunch of shells in those caves and it can be oysters. It could be muscles. It can be clams. , but they were working that intercoastal, , zone. And, as, archeologists and anthropologists have argued about how human beings, peopled the globe from starting from Africa. , there's kind of been this debate going back and [00:57:00] forth, , especially coming to the new world. The old idea was that we came across, , the bearing straits at a time of low water. So. , that part of Asia and North America were connected, but it was time there were big glaciers. It was ice age. But so we were this, you know, this tough, , mammoth hunting culture that, raced across in pursuit of some mammoth. And 

Kevin: pretty hardly go a mammoth even back then. I guess. 

Rowan: Yeah. Like they did it once in a while, you know, you could maybe chase one off a cliff, but that seemed to work best., so the, the old idea was that we were like big game hunter gatherers, um, and that was how we had sort of traveled around the world. And then people who were more familiar with boats kind of came along and said, like, have you ever tried to move along the coast with a boat, um, versus a place that has no roads? It's um, way easier. And, and so these coastal migration, , scientists have pretty much won, like all the, , the sites show. Almost certainly early, early human groups were [00:58:00] traveling along the coast and, , and that environment is much easier to move in and like also incredibly easy to find a good supply of resources , , that intertidal zone turns out to just be incredibly abundant in resources.

Rowan: , and you said you're on Anacortes , right? So you're very familiar with that environment and how much fish and shellfish and kelp and other things can be found like right there. There's still a really, flourishing culture of, recreational harvesting of those resources.

Kevin: It really is a living shoreline. Like, the title of your book, truly amazing. , this historical kind of shoreline traversing of humans, , makes total sense to me and really oysters and shellfish are sort of the low hanging fruit when it comes to abundance of food. When you're traveling a lot easier than like we said, killing a woolly mammoth 

Rowan: or a whale also hard .

Kevin: Right. And then you have issues of, preserving the meat and [00:59:00] that sort of thing. Whereas you can just walk out into the water, into , these, , inner tidal areas and just. Grab today's meal, yeah. Yeah, but you've talked about how this has also had an impact on human evolution The physiological evolution and brain development of humans and I find that fascinating. Tell me a little bit about your thoughts on that 

Rowan: Yeah, and this is this is a theory that I quote in the book and not proven, but Continue still being debated. Well, DHA is this, fatty acid, Omega threes are one version of it, or it's one version of Omega threes. , and we've gotten all these medical reports for 10 years or more about how important DHA and these Omega three fatty acids are to our brain development. If you gonna have a big brain and, , it's going to be running at high speed, basically like a big microprocessor, these omega threes make it go better. You know, they're kind of like the next chip technology, better chip technology. And, this same theory , of [01:00:00] human migration along coastlines. Argues that when people hit that coastal environment,, and adapted to it, it improved their resource profile and maybe led to, bigger, higher functioning brains and all the abilities that we associate with modern humans maybe started once they hit that coastal environment , and we're getting like, big supplies of omega 3s, because if you're really eating a land based diet, you don't get much omega 3s at all. 

Kevin: It makes total sense to me. I understand it's just a theory, but, , are people actively studying that, that whole notion right now, 

Rowan: Yeah, like, well, so they know omega 3s are good for babies. , right. And like, how did, , so how did they get them back in the day?

Rowan: You know, before there were pills, there was shellfish and, fish, the other part of it is like fish traps, all these classic ways of catching fish, , without having fancy modern nets, you know, , or hooks. So yeah, there is, um, there's, there's a very, there's a funny book by a [01:01:00] scientist called survival of the fattest.

Rowan: The cover features a picture of a very pudgy baby, pudgy and very happy baby. And he argues, that really the reason babies have all that fat is because it's like future brain, like they're building up all their omega 3 fats so that it can basically all just eventually go up into the brain.

Kevin: That might explain why, , other animals, when they're babies generally are not very fat. 

Rowan: Yeah. Our babies are weird. Like other babies, they're skinny and they can walk right away. But so, where that goes is to basically explaining why so many of us seem to have this sort of deep, affinity for coastlines. It's like, it's a very natural environment for us.

Kevin: You mentioned, fish as well. There, we have oyster aquaculture and the farming of oysters and there's various techniques for that sort of thing. And then we also have fish aquaculture, fin fish, fish farms out in the sea. I want to get your opinion of the two of those things versus one another. I mean, oysters are improving the habitat and I'm not so sure [01:02:00] that's the case with fish farming. What's your thought on that? 

Rowan: Yeah. So fish farming, , has gotten a bad rep because of, , the nutrient pollution involved. You've got a ton of fish in a pen off the coast. , and you have to feed them.

Rowan: So you're taking all, all these nutrients from land, , or you're catching Manhaden, like small oily fish from the Chesapeake. And, , You're dumping all those nutrients into the fish farm to feed the fish. And some of it goes into the fish. Some of it misses the fish and just goes into the ocean. And even if it goes into the fish, then it comes out the fish. So you're, doing all this nutrient loading into the sea. And that causes lots of pollution problems. Yeah. Um, and then there's other problems with like fish farm fish can escape and, interact , , with the wild populations. They can spread diseases to the wild populations. Because they move, right? They eat and they move. , and the reason shellfish farming, , is considered such a green form of food production is because shellfish don't do those things, especially oysters. They don't move, so if you're going to [01:03:00] farm something, an animal, it's the perfect animal to farm because it doesn't even know it's being farmed, right?

Rowan: It's just like, oh, life is good. And, , they don't eat right. They, , they just filter the water as it comes by and strain out, , the plankton. , so they reverse the equation. So instead of nutrient loading, they're actually removing nutrients from the ocean, from the sea. And we generally have too many nutrients in most of our estuaries, um, turning it into these oysters that are then getting pulled out of the water.

Rowan: So they, they leave the water cleaner than they found it. , and , they never escape and go like swimming off with, wild, critters. So they are, in a sense, they're the, they're the perfect form , of aquaculture and you see all around the world, more and more emphasis on not just oysters, but also, , mussels are another , really green. Form and clams also maybe to a somewhat lesser, lesser extent. 

Kevin: And also they're sequestering carbon and cleaning up the sea in many other ways, in [01:04:00] filtering what it's the famous 50 gallons a day, a typical amount that an oyster can filter of water. You know, you look at like the billion oyster project and these other restoration projects and all of a sudden it's like, if one oyster can do that much good for the environment, put a billion of them together and you're actually making a difference.

Rowan: Right. They're like, yeah, they're like these little, um, technologies, these perfect little technologies for cleaning your bay that are self sustaining. So there's big potential. 

Kevin: With all the oyster farming that's been going on around the United States now for a couple of hundred years, do we have any truly wild oysters anymore in America?

Rowan: We do for sure. , gulf coast, you still see there's. significant beds, um, in Louisiana, a little bit in Mississippi. So those are, I mean, they say what you will about the flavor, but that it's amazing that we still have, it's one of the few places in the world really, where you have, , oyster populations large enough [01:05:00] that You can harvest the wild ones. Chesapeake still has a wild fishery. Not what it used to be, but it still exists. So that's also pretty amazing. 

Kevin: I heard somebody challenged me on that. Cause I had said the same thing and they said, well, in reality, they've been re-seeded so many times that they're not really wild anymore. 

Rowan: Well, is the glass have full or half empty? Like our lobsters wild . We're not like seeding lobsters, but everyone calls lobster this wild fishery, but most of the calories that a lobster eats , is herring coming from the lobster traps. , so we're basically ranching lobsters.

Rowan: They're, they're ranched as much as cattle are ranch. They're just like, well, you know, like we're feeding these guys, almost everything they're eating, you know, 

Kevin: That's right. They're hanging around these, these lobster areas for a reason because we're giving them food.

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. When I think of wild oysters, I think of the Olympias and I know you've had an incredible amount of experience with Olympias. Tell me a little bit about them. Are they your favorite oyster? 

Rowan: They might be, , and [01:06:00] that was the other one I was going to mention is we, still have wild oyster populations of Olympias, , in Washington state. , and actually there's a few in California too. 

Rowan: Really? 

Rowan: Yeah. Tomales Bay. You can, uh, you can walk around Tomales Bay at low tide, some of those tiny postage stamp beaches they have there and look at the rocks. Right near the low tide line and they'll always be tucked away hidden, but you can find little Olympias attached to the rocks there. They've always been there.

Kevin: And you went on some pretty exotic Olympia explorations to find wild ones, right? 

Rowan: Yes, but if you want like real, large populations of Olympias, that's spots in Washington State and even more so up in, , British Columbia. So I I went on an expedition with, , Betsy Peabody from the Puget Sound Restoration Fund years ago up into Vancouver Island to try to find some of these, last really large beds of Olympias that, , were rumored to exist because Olympias had once covered almost every [01:07:00] intertidal zone in that Pacific Northwest environment.

Rowan: , but because, they're very small, they're by far the smallest of the five species of oysters that we have in the U S they really don't get much bigger than a half dollar and it can take them a few years to get that big. So people , ate through them very quickly. , after the San Francisco gold rush, and the West coast started getting a taste for oysters and they just couldn't keep up.

Rowan: So they mostly disappeared and people didn't like farming them because they were so small. Like they switched to farming other oysters that grew much faster. , but they didn't entirely disappear. So up in, , Vancouver Island, there's some remote bays that really haven't, been explored that much where, the Olympias have just been able to really survive in large numbers.

Rowan: So a group of us went up to sort of document those bays and figure out why they were. Existing like why they hadn't disappeared when so many others didn't and maybe use that as a model for restoring populations in Washington state and elsewhere. And we were successful. We [01:08:00] found, , really tucked away in some of those fjords back there.

Rowan: Some just incredibly extensive, , beds of Olympia is covering acres and acres and it was beautiful to see cause I'd never seen anything like that. , like I was saying, , I'd usually seen them just living cryptically under rocks and stuff. Small numbers. And this was, there were millions , or maybe, , maybe probably, yeah, probably millions of oysters on these beds.

Rowan: And, all the scientists were really, really excited to see that too. So as far as I know, those are still there. , and there's been some successful restoration efforts with the Olympia down in Washington state. 

Kevin: Yeah. Southern Puget sound, is an area , that they're doing a lot , of that. , I recently was, , with Skagit Shellfish and I was tasting some of the Olympias that they're growing. And I had always thought of Olympias as Being very small, like you say, but having sort of a minerally, almost coppery kind of flavor. Someone once described it as sucking on a penny. But the Olympias that I had this past week were not like that at all. They were [01:09:00] really complex flavors, not that minerally, really sweet. They were remarkable. Oh wow, that Olympias. 

Rowan: Yeah, they, I think they definitely have the most complex flavor of,, Of any oyster. , like you said, they're very small, but, , but they pack more flavor into a small package than, , any of the other oysters really. So they are a real treat and they're still farmed by a handful of people, , in Washington state, like Skagit Shelfish that you mentioned, and a couple of others. , and you know, like people who love, who know Olympias love them. And they're often somebody's favorite oyster. Like if I give a newbie taste of all the different They'll often, , pick the Olympia as their favorite and yet there's so little known.

Kevin: So that's a thing and as people are going for smaller and smaller oysters, if that's the trend on the raw bar, maybe that will be good for Olympias. 

Rowan: Finally, they'll work their way down to the Olympia. 

Kevin: Of course, then we'll overharvest them and it'll actually be the death knell of Olympia because that's what we do basically. 

Rowan: That [01:10:00] is what we do. 

Kevin: Are there any misconceptions, , about oysters that you would want to change or debunk any crazy beliefs about oysters that you think people hold? 

Rowan: , I feel like we've debunked a few, well, the whole aphrodisiac thing, I think we can get away from that. You know, we can leave that, the aphrodisiac thing safely behind in the sixties or whatever. Like, they're fun to eat, but, , No replacement for Viagra probably. They're not scary to eat. I think there's still a lot of people out there who are very intimidated. , and especially now that we have all these nice little small oysters, being served everywhere. Nobody should be holding back. It's not, it's not a scary experience. It's less scary than it used to be when they were all big. 

Kevin: Right. And with refrigeration and all of that, you know, there's not much fear if it's responsibly grown and served about getting sick either. 

Rowan: Yeah, for sure. That's not a worry. Like even in summer, like they might be. They might be creamy, but they're not going to hurt you. 

Kevin: So you focused on so many different topics. I mean, you [01:11:00] focused on truffles and apples and honeybees and, you know, garbage patches floating in the ocean. And, uh, you're doing a lot of work on. I think sun exposure kind of recommendation.

Kevin: It's fascinating what you're doing. Have you ever thought about kind of picking one topic and settling into it? Like, do you ever think about becoming an oyster farmer or something like that? 

Rowan: No, you know, I definitely, I like to, um, I like to learn and I've like realized that my career is basically I'm funding my own learning. So I love learning about things that I haven't known anything about or that I've realized that I've had misconceptions about. Um, . I'm like, Oh, I was wrong. Like now I want to learn. , so I do keep hopping from topic to topic. Um, cause I just love the learning. , but I, apparently you, so you are farming oysters now, right?

Kevin: Just beginning to, , I'm working with a small oyster farm and now I've applied for my own. Lease. And I've got a few, but I don't have the permit yet. I probably shouldn't tell anybody that, [01:12:00] but I'd like to be the guy who, when you go to someone's house for a dinner party, you always bring a bottle of wine. I want to bring oysters. I want people to, be excited about that. 

Rowan: I mean, I would be, if I lived on the coast, I would totally like have a, a cage of oysters off of my dock. Right. All right. That's, that's always been kind of a dream. I like the people I know have that. It's like that you can be the guy who brings the oysters to the party, but you can also have the party at your house. And like, you know, everyone's actually just like pull oysters out of the water. 

Kevin: Right. That's really the dream is to, or to have an occasional pop up or that kind of thing and just, , crank out the oysters because they're, you know, part of the joy of oysters isn't just the flavor and the experience eating them, it's, it's being around people who enjoy them, it is that communal kind of thing, which I guess has been. Going on for centuries and centuries. 

Rowan: Yeah. I feel like you're linking straight back to 160, 000 years ago with that. Yeah. No, I'd love to. I, you know, I try here in Vermont on my lake, but the oysters keep dying. 

Kevin: Do oysters need salinity? [01:13:00] Can there be fresh, I know they're freshwater mussels. Can there be freshwater oysters? 

Rowan: No, they need, they do need salinity. They need like, I think the lowest is like five parts per thousand salt, but even that's pushing it. They like 10 better. , right. Like, you know, the upper Chesapeake is about their limit, I think. 

Kevin: Right. So what are you working on right now?

Rowan: , so I actually, I have a book coming out in the fall, which is the book version of that podcast about, Wild chocolate. 

Kevin: the podcast is amazing. I encourage everybody to listen to it. It's not just about chocolate. It's the way you tell the story. It's absolutely gripping. 

Rowan: Well, thank you. , but yeah, so the idea is to use chocolate to, to take people into, , the Amazon where cacao comes from and explore, what chocolate is, what it means and, some of its complex history.

Rowan: So now I'm actually, yeah, I just had a piece come out in the Atlantic about sun exposure. And I'm working on a book about the health benefits of sun exposure. So it's a little controversial, but, um, we all know that, , that [01:14:00] sun exposure, , causes skin cancer. But it also, it's turning out to have all these, , beneficial effects as well.

Rowan: So, , scientists are just starting to grapple with this, but now there has to be sort of a reconsideration of like, what are we now too, too little sun exposure might be a problem, especially for some people, depending on skin tone. So there's going to be a recalibration, I think. 

Kevin: That's very interesting. And finding just that right balance, whatever it is between. Too much and not enough. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, having spent some time living in Seattle, you know, you hear about the, the sun exposure deprivation SAD, I think is what they call the syndrome and people need sun lamps and that sort of thing in their house during the winter. Yeah, I guess that all folds into it, right? 

Rowan: For sure. Same thing where I'm in Vermont. Like, it's, it's a, , it's a tough environment for humans to be this far north and cloudy, you know, it's like not ideal in certain ways. 

Kevin: What I find so interesting Rowan about what you do is you take a topic and you don't just [01:15:00] learn about the topic. You find a link and , maybe you're really an anthropologist at heart. You find a link to the significance of that topic and, , human societies. And you seem to find that connection between a very interesting subject and very interesting history behind it. 

Rowan: Yeah. And there's, that always is there somewhere, right? Like none of this exists in a vacuum. , and for me, part of the pleasure of all these things is all these, , these relationships that, you know, That you, you find through the food or whatever it is. 

Kevin: So what's next? 

Rowan: It's going to be sun for a while. Yeah. 

Kevin: It's going to be sun for a while.

Rowan: Just digging in. Yeah. So. Fantastic. The science is really complex. So, and it's, , you know, controversial, so there's a lot to dig into. 

Kevin: Well, I can't wait to read more about it. And, , I will put a list of, your books and your podcast on the show notes. So people can have a look at what you're doing. You're an amazing writer and you're just an interesting guy. So thank you so much for coming on the show and explaining the world of oysters a little bit to [01:16:00] us. 

Rowan: Well, thank you. It's, it's been a real pleasure, , to, uh, chat with someone who knows so much and, , and asks , all the interesting questions. Not everybody does. 

Kevin: Is there anything that, you know, when we hang up, you're going to say, boy, that guy really blew it. He didn't ask about this or that. 

Rowan: Yeah, no, you know, I think, let's see, I think we hit all the big stuff. Yeah. Yeah. 

Kevin: All right, Rowan, we'll listen. Thanks again. I really appreciate all your time and it's been fantastic talking to you.

Rowan: Yeah, I agree. Thanks, Kevin. This is great. 

Kevin: Since my interview with Rowan his book Wild Chocolate: Across the Americas In Search of Cacao's Soul by Bloomsbury Publishing has come out. And I got to tell you it's absolutely fabulous. You'll never think about chocolate the same way again, after you read this and you'll love it even more than you ever have before. So check it out. You can find it on Amazon or in any bookstore. And I'll include a link to it in the show notes.

Kevin: Well, that's it for this inaugural episode of OYSTER-ology. Thanks to my guest Rowan Jacobsen. As always show notes [01:17:00] will be found in this episodes page. And if you enjoyed the show, please rate or review. it on whatever podcast platform you listen to. I'm your host, Kevin Cox. Join us next week when we pry open the shell of another interesting OYSTER-ology topic.

Kevin: Bubbling