Episode 2: Jesse Honiker, Hama Hama Oyster Company

Take a Deep Dive into Oyster nurseries and husbandry: Techniques, Genetics, and Personal Journeys

This 'OYSTER-ology' episode features an engaging conversation with Jesse Honiker of Hama Hama Oyster Company, a premier oyster farm in Washington's Hood Canal and Puget Sound. Jessie runs Hama Hama's Nursery of millions of baby oysters, raising them until big and strong enough to go out into the open water to grow into outstanding oysters for consumption. Our discussion provides an in-depth exploration of an oyster nursery and farming practices and innovations. Jesse discusses oyster husbandry using a floating upweller system (FLUPSY), highlighting the processes from nursery to bay, genetic advancements, and the importance of shell size and shape maintenance. The episode delves into the challenges and rewards of cultivating different strains of oysters, including the genetically resilient Miyagi and Midori oysters, and the historically significant Olympia oyster. Jesse shares her transition from crop farming to oyster farming, discussing sustainable food production, the intricacies of managing vast numbers of oysters, and the role of environmental factors in farming practices. Jesse, an expert with a background in both land and marine agriculture, shares experiences from the Hama Hama, shedding light on nursery management, developmental stages, and the physical demands of the job. The discussion also delves into the genetic development of oysters, exploring diploids and triploids, and the challenges posed by climate change. Personal anecdotes and insights into Jesse's diverse background and some of her more unusual experiences working at Hama Hama enrich the narrative, emphasizing the community's integral role in the ongoing sustainability of aquaculture and revealing the therapeutic benefits of farming, the journey from crop farming to oyster farming, and  teaching farming to incarcerated women. This episode offers a rich blend of technical knowledge, historical context, and personal experiences, highlighting Jesse's passion and dedication behind the critical baby oyster/nursery phase of sustainable oyster farming.

00:00 Introduction to Oyster Complexity

00:11 Meet Jesse Honaker: Oyster Expert

01:09 Oyster Nursery Management

02:14 Challenges and Adventures in Oyster Farming

03:01 Daily Operations at Hama Hama

05:35 Oyster Nursery Details

07:52 FLUPSY and Advanced Sorting Techniques

16:28 Oyster Growth and Seeding Methods

23:58 The Importance of Olympia Oysters

28:58 Unique Challenges with Olympia Oysters

31:54 Navigating the Tides and Safety

33:43 Cold Waters and Waders: Making Good Choices

34:24 Genetic Development of Oysters: Diploids and Triploids

40:21 Exploring DNA and RNA in Oyster Genetics

42:59 Challenges and Innovations in Oyster Farming

49:02 A Journey from Land Farming to Oyster Farming

58:57 Sustainable Protein Sources: Oysters and Beyond

01:01:51 The Emotional Connection to Oyster Farming

01:06:13 Concluding Thoughts and Future Prospects

Links:
Hama Hama Oyster Company 

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Transcript

Transcript: Episode 3 Jessie Honiker, Hama Hama Oysters

Jessie: [00:00:00] Oysters are so complex, even though they're just tiny sedentary meat rocks

Kevin: Welcome to OYSTER-ology, a podcast all about the wide world of oysters, aquaculture, and everything from spat to shuck. I'm your Host, Kevin Cox..

Kevin: This is an episode that I've been so excited about since the day I first met Jesse Honaker on the sparkling shores of Puget Sound to talk about the raising of oysters from when they're little tiny babies fresh from hatcheries up until they become teenagers ready to spread their shells and leave the safe nest of an oyster nursery for the cold open waters of the Pacific Northwest.

With degrees in agriculture, crop biology, and genetics from Evergreen State College, and with her diverse background in land farming, Jessie knows so much about the raising of baby oysters that our interview could have gone on for [00:01:00] hours. In her management of the oyster nursery at the iconic Hama Hama Oyster Company, she not only goes about the complex work of oyster husbandry, but at the same time nurtures and raises countless baby oysters from infancy to adolescence, much like a human mother would nurture her own kids.

In this episode, we talk about the world of oyster husbandry and nursery management, and so much more, including learning what a baby oyster is like, deadlifting, ballet dancers, swimming in frigid water. falling in frigid water, fjording in frigid water alone in complete nighttime darkness, oysters during the gold rush, diploids, triploids, the difference in eating plump oysters, flaccid oysters, and yes, uh, spermy oysters, and holding thousands of babies in the palm of your hand at one time, clipping oyster fingernails, and tired dad joke labels like Hama Hama Baby [00:02:00] Mama.

So pull up your cold water waders and strap on your maternal instinct for a conversation with amazing farmer, biologist, geneticist, and oyster husbandry expert, Jesse Honaker.

Kevin: Jesse, it is so fabulous to have you as a guest on Oysterology. I am so excited. Uh, it's been a while trying to get this. We've been plagued with technical difficulties and you're incredibly busy at Hama Hama. But, , thank you so much for being my guest here today. 

Jessie: Absolutely. Yeah. You just caught me during a bad time of the year . So we're really starting to take off in terms of oyster growth, but I'm really glad that we could make it happen. 

Kevin:I guess spring really is kind of the when the water starts warming enough So spawning can take place. Is that is that it? 

Jessie: Well spawning isn't gonna take place for another couple months more towards July for us But really it's just that's [00:03:00] when I need to start really getting stuff into the nursery because oysters are growing So we have targets we gotta hit so we gotta get them 

Kevin: Well, let's just take a second to, , to talk about where you actually are. So, Hama Hama Oyster Farm is best known in the greater Seattle area as being on Hood Canal in, what is it, Lilliwaup, is that right? And, it's an old, hundred year old company, family run, what, sixth generation or something like that. So, you know all the family members that are still working it and it's a it's a close run operation. Do you get to work closely with the family and 

Jessie: the company is mainly ran by two brothers and a sister right now One of the brothers runs our timber division and then also down actually in the estuary Lisa and Adam help run the shellfish division and their brother and sister. So it's definitely a family company 

Kevin: You ever see sibling rivalries going on? 

Jessie: No, I think that's the [00:04:00] great thing about working for a family company is that there is such a like genuine feel to the company, um, in terms of like care and just involvement in the community. Um, but yeah, there are some family dynamics that exist and it, it kind of makes it work, working there pretty quirky. 

Kevin: Do you know how many people roughly work there overall in the whole, at least the whole Oyster aspect of the company? Yeah, I've asked that question a few times.

Jessie: I think it's hard to answer and, uh, depending on the time of year because we do have a lot of seasonal staff. , Hama Hama is, um, We are a farm, but we also have a farm store and a restaurant as well that are part of our company. So whether it be seasonal staff that are in the restaurant or seasonal staff that are on the beach, it can expand and contract quite a bit. But I would say that we run somewhere between like 25 and 45, depending on the time of the season. 

Kevin: I've been to your farm store and to the Oyster Saloon numerous times. But that's not where you are [00:05:00] most of the time. You're actually down in South Puget Sound, right? 

Jessie: That's true. So our FLUPSY is in South Puget Sound. I guess my title is, , nursery and farm operations manager. So not only am I at the nursery quite a bit, I'm also out on our farm. So we have quite a few different farm sites outside of just our He but we, we some years don't end up doing a lot of work on some of our beaches. So, um, it kind of expands and contracts. Some of our beaches are just for clams as well. So in terms of where I end up on a daily basis, well, that's, that's quite an adventure.

Kevin: I guess it depends a lot on the weather, the tide, the season and, and, and the weather. Basically, whatever needs to be done, you're there to do it, right?

Jessie: Yeah, I would say that's true. So I do manage our nursery, which is in South Puget Sound, Oakland Bay.It's beautiful down there and it's also kind of a premier place for growing baby oysters. There's just so much food in the water. So there's quite a few different nurseries [00:06:00] that are in that specific bay. But outside of that, I mean, I am running around to our different beaches and also trying to do inventory. And, uh, Manage, um, seed going onto those beaches. So making sure that things get planted out. 

Kevin: So tell me a little bit about what you do in the nursery. 

Jessie: In the nursery, we are receiving small oysters, usually about two millimeters. So, kind of like a little, almost like a little pebble, from hatcheries. And we raised them up to about the, the size of the very end of your thumb, 12 millimeter, 18 millimeters, somewhere within that range. And then we're planting them out on the beaches. So really what the day to day work looks like at the nursery is, not that different from a normal daycare, which is we're trying to keep the babies clean. And we're trying to make sure that they're all sorted into their correct size or age group. so. [00:07:00] As oysters grow, they kind of jut out, they almost produce like a fingernail of growth at the very end of their shell. If you continue to chip off that fingernail, um, if you clip their fingernails, then it encourages the oyster to grow a deeper cut. Um, and so really that's, that's kind of what I'm doing is just making sure that everything's in its right place, right age group and, um, moving through the system 

Kevin: So you're the Hama Hama baby mama, 

Jessie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that joke's been made before.

Kevin: I couldn't, I couldn't help myself. When I had the great day down there with you and you showed me the operations, you lifted up these square containers out of the flupsy, which we'll talk about in a second. And there were, hundreds of thousands of little tiny oysters in there. How do you go through them all to figure out the age and [00:08:00] which container they should be in and that sort of thing?

Jessie: Yeah, absolutely. I just want to say that a FLUPSY is a Floating Upweller System. So it That describes the way that water is moving through the oysters and we can come back to that a little bit but in the industry, you'll sometimes hear people refer to the area where we're growing up the babies as a nursery or as a FLUPSY, so that's where that word comes from, but In terms of how, how I'm maintaining that flow, how I'm moving through the system, I have, I just got a really new fancy machine that I love. , it's from France. Um, sometimes I pronounce it wrong cause I keep getting it confused with the wine. So I apologize if I do pronounce this wrong, but it's called a Merlot or a Merlot. Um, and, uh, it is, you know, a lot of our technology within the industry really is from not the United States. So this is from Europe and, uh, [00:09:00] this machine is essentially a vibratory machine that, runs the oysters over a screen that allows them to be able to have that sort of, um, agitation that clips their fingernail and then sizes them by running them through different screen levels.

So at any time, probably at the height of, um, The nursery in terms of how many oysters I have in there, it can be between 1. 5 to, two and a half million. And so we are attempting to try to get through all of those oysters every week and get eyes on them and touch them and, um, It is, it is a big week.

And then for the smaller stuff, they're so sensitive and tiny that we are hand sorting them all and it's using that same vibratory method, but essentially you're just doing that with your arms, like just rocking them back and forth, for lack of a better term, in order to get them to go through screens, 

Kevin: Kind of like panning for gold or something like that.

Jessie: [00:10:00] It's very similar to panning for gold, and it gives you killer chest muscles, so it's great. 

Kevin: Well, yeah, that is one of the things that I've learned gradually, learning about oyster farming in general, is that it's a great way to stay in shape. 

Jessie: It's true. Yeah, we have a joke at the flupsy that, um, you need really good balance because all of our systems are suspended above the water and there's sometimes just only small planks that you're walking on and then you're lifting things out from the water. So you're lifting them from an even lower plane than just like lifting something off the floor. Um, so we joke that it's like you have to be a ballerina who's really good at dead lifting 

Kevin: What are the square containers in the flupsy that these that the babies are in called 

Jessie: So those are called silos Yeah, and there is several different Versions of floating upweller systems, of FLUPSYs. We have a couple [00:11:00] different styles, but we're mostly using Hooper Island styles, which I believe come from a company in Maryland, called Hooper Island Oysters. 

Kevin: I'm in, Chincoteague Island, Virginia, which is, on the eastern shore, and Hooper Island is not more than an hour and a half from here.

Jessie: And it is in Maryland, correct? 

Kevin: It is. Yes, exactly. 

Jessie: I'm glad I got that right. yeah, but there are just, there are quite a few different styles. So some people use aluminum, silos that then, have water cascading in them from huge paddle wheels. and so I just want to state that, you know, there, there is a lot of different ways to, build a flupsy.

Kevin: and I wonder if there's a difference in terms of how the oysters grow based on the different kind of water flow, like a paddle wheel versus water underneath it, pushing it up, up, that would be the upwelling part, I guess. Right. 

Jessie: Yeah, I mean, you're different types of pumps, whether it be a paddle wheel or [00:12:00] we, we use ice eater pumps. they're all gonna have different flow levels, essentially being able to move different amounts of water. And, you know, if there's more pizza on the table, you're going to gain more weight. So it's that same concept. If they have more water, more algae moving past them, they're going to put on more weight.

And that being said, you can have the best pump in the world and be in a bay that doesn't have a lot of food. And, you know, if the bay, if the bay doesn't have a lot of food, they're, they're just not going to put on any weight. 

Kevin: So the more pizza, the better basically is what you're saying. 

Jessie: Always, always 

Kevin: In my life too. So, so the water that is pumping through the oysters in the upweller system is the water of the bay in which you're, you have them. It's not artificial water or anything like that. 

Jessie: No, on a, Hatchery level. So again, I get, I get my seed from hatcheries that are doing the setting and the larval production of these oysters. Um, most of these [00:13:00] hatcheries, they are raising up algae and it is one of the biggest expenses, like raising algae and then feeding algae that you've made. To oysters is very, very expensive. So we try to essentially, um, all companies are trying to essentially switch oysters over to Baywater to natural algae, as quickly as possible, just, for the sake of expense.

Kevin: So when in the larval or hatching stage. They're fed manufactured algae and food, And then when you get them from the hatchery and you put them in the bay, that's when you want them to start eating the local stuff. 

Jessie: Exactly. Yep. 

Kevin: Do you ever have, you know, spoiled, rotten kids, you know, these baby oysters that don't like the local food because they're used to the good stuff from the bottle?

Jessie: Yeah. I, I don't know if it's that simple. I think that oysters are so [00:14:00] complex. Um, even though they're just tiny sedentary meat rocks. Um, I have definitely had issues with getting oysters from Hatcheries that keep their water really, really warm. Um, mostly like in Hawaii and things like that.

And then, you know, I'll buy oysters from Hawaii in February and put them on our bay water. That's below, 46 degrees and the oysters are just upset and they just sit there and look at me just so cold and 

Kevin: I’d be upset, too. 

Jessie: I think it's a function of there's not very much food in the water. But I also just think that the shock of coming out of hatcheries can definitely affect oysters, whether that be because of temperature, um, dissolved oxygen in the water, um, you know, algae, amount of algae and, and, and type of algae that are out there. So, they're usually, whenever I get in oysters from a hatchery, there usually is a period where [00:15:00] they're adjusting. They have their adjustment period. 

Kevin: Right, like any babies. 

Jessie: Like any of us. Uh, 

Kevin: I still have trouble adjusting to things, especially if it involves cold water and not the kind of food that I like. You showed me a handful of babies and I think you said, Although it wasn't a specific count, that there were tens of thousands of oysters in the palm of your hand, but what was amazing was each one looked exactly like a full grown oyster. I mean, it was just like a super miniature version of what you get at the oyster saloon to shuck and eat. 

Jessie: And that's really, I mean, the main part of my job is producing enough oysters for our beaches, but also making sure that we maintain that beautiful shape or start that beautiful shape at a really, really young age, you know, um, it's just like being a parent. You want to teach your kids good [00:16:00] manners, you want to teach your kids to, stay in line, shape up, and that's what we do in the nursery. and really that active sorting and, uh, clipping the fingernail, for lack of a better term, is really what helps develop that shape. it also develops the adductor muscle of an oyster. Um, which, the stronger that adductor muscle, the easier it is for that oyster to essentially be able to open and close its shell. Um, and that can make it more resilient to, periods of low oxygen, periods of, not great feed in the water, and, just, build strength of that for resiliency when they hit the beaches.

Kevin: And eventually they must get to a size where it's time to leave the nest. And what is that all about? How does that happen? 

Jessie: Yeah. Yeah. Um, You know, it depends on how many I have, but I, the, the company has me in a little Prius, which is hilarious. So I'll roll up to a beach with, you know, 200, 000 [00:17:00] oysters in the trunk of a Prius. And, um, 

Kevin: Be a great ad for Toyota. 

Jessie: It really would. It's it's crazy how many farmers have. um, and just, you know, I've seen pigs be moved around in Priuses, but, um, I, I move oysters in mine and, uh, roll up to a beach. And at that point, you know, at Hama, we have a couple different methods in which we grow with and depending on the beach, um, depending on the location that we have various.

And so. Sometimes that looks like putting oysters into bags, tumble bags, and putting them on a tumble farm. Sometimes that looks like just straight spreading them on a beach, um, especially if they've gotten big enough within the nursery. Sometimes that looks like putting them in, a newer thing to us, which is called a, SEPA basket, and those go out on long lines that are surface culture, and we're using that at a couple different farm sites. We refer to those as [00:18:00] intertidal nurseries and we use those intertidal nurseries with those SEPA baskets to raise them up to, 24 millimeters, about double the size that they would come out of the flupsy at and then spread them on the beach. so we have quite a few different methods. We're just about to get a flip farm, which is more surface culture that we're really excited about. So, depending on the place. depending on the time, we have a lot of different beaches that we're seeding out and in different ways. 

Kevin: And so each of those different methods of seeding out and growing out results in a different outcome. Different kind of finished oyster. 

Jessie: I think a little bit of a misnomer, or something that may be confusing to consumers is that the, US government or the states do not regulate the, how you're naming oysters. So each company has their own sort of philosophy around how they name their oysters.

For us at Hama, we do it based on location and growing [00:19:00] method. and then there's other companies that do it based on just sizing. Um, which allows their product to be pretty consistent. Um, sometimes I'm jealous that other companies do that. but we really want to focus on merroir with our naming and so we believe that the different way that something's grown and then the estuary that it's sitting in. specific to is really where a name should come from. for example, our flagship oyster is our Hama Hamas and those are beach grown on our Hama Hama beach on our estuary. And then from that, same beach, we have a different oyster product called the Blue Pools. And those are our tumbled oysters on our tumble farm. And they really do have a different flavor like the umami earthy flavor of a Hama comes from the fact that it's it's hanging out in the mud. And then our Blue Pools are on our tumble farm, which is slightly off the ground in a tumble bag. And that really You, [00:20:00] you get a much crisper flavor from that very cucumbery. But there is a distinctness there. And then the shell shape is totally different too because, those tumble bags really make those oysters work really make 'em exercise a lot. So they got a very deep cup 

Kevin: Deep cups, stronger adductor muscles and clipped fingernails probably. Right? 

Jessie: Exactly. All it's the same thing as I do in flupsy, but we just. and the tide does it for us, which that's lovely. I thank the tide for that. 

Kevin: What that is and how that affects oysters. 

Jessie: Yeah. I mean, most oysters, most oysters are grown in a place in which, freshwater meets seawater and that mixing of those two different waters produce a lot of different, um, nutrients that then totally changed the algae and phytoplankton makeup of that Bay.

And that's really where those differences in flavors end up coming from. so for us, it's. [00:21:00] It's, it's the Hama Hama River that comes down and then our Hama Hama Beach is in the delta there where the Hood Canal meets that Hama Hama River. And all those nutrients that they're, that are coming off literally, from the Olympics National Park and all that snowmelt and the salmon runs that are up there. And just the mixing of nutrients is, is what creates the very distinct flavor of our oysters. 

Kevin: If you could taste that beauty with the water and the trees and the snow melt and the bays and everything, I guess that's what we're talking about. 

Jessie: It is. Yeah. I mean, it's, I think that what's amazing about the concept of Merroir is it can really give you a lot of pride in place, um, especially for where I live, which is the Puget Sound, um, each of our inlets are so unique in terms of how. The water moves in and out of [00:22:00] them in terms of how, fresh water comes in, in terms of where that fresh water is coming from. And so, you know, each of these inlets have such a distinct flavor that they impart on an oyster. That, I think that more people who live in the Puget Sound should really like know what their inlet tastes like. Um, unfortunately where I, I live in Olympia and we live on Bud Bay, and the inlet here is closed for a lot of, shellfish consumption. So I do get a lot of pride in product for, the amount of time that I spend up at the Hood Canal. But there's a lot of. Inlets that I also really love the specific flavor that are there 

Kevin: And yet they look and taste so different Because of what you're describing right?

Jessie: Yeah, because of husbandry and because of, um, because of the differences in the water and different times of year, they're going to taste totally unique to [00:23:00] just based on the algae that's there. I mean, oysters can eat a lot of different types of algae and phytoplankton. So, that really does change the flavor quite a bit.

Kevin: You are what you eat, I guess. Right. 

Jessie: Totally. 

Kevin: That’s what Shrek said or something. The oysters that you're caring for in the nursery, are they all the same? Are they all Pacifics or do you have Kumamotos and other species of oysters? 

Jessie: Yes. So we grow three different species. we grow our native Olympia oyster, and we grow Kumamotos and we grow Pacifics, um, once we get into Pacifics, though, there is a lot of different Strains, I guess, would be the correct term, that we use on the farm. And those are mostly affecting our take on husbandry rather than really the customer experience, but it affects the customer experience a [00:24:00] little bit. Um, But I do want to talk before I go deep into that because I could I could talk about that for a while I do want to talk a little bit more about the native olympia oyster 

Kevin: It's the only truly native oyster, isn't that right?

Jessie: It is. Yeah to the Puget Sound yes um, so the Olympias were really In my opinion, what kind of made Washington a state, so before Washington was a state, the gold rush down in San Francisco, essentially wiped out all of the native oysters there in the San Francisco Bay. And so they were looking for a new place with all that money coming from the gold rush to find oysters. And they happened upon Willapa Bay, and there was a trade route that was established between Washington State, , which is on the coast. Willapa Bay is on the coast. and San Francisco at the time. And, that money that came into Washington through that established [00:25:00] trade route of Olympia oysters is what made our state a state. So, um, I'm very passionate about the Olympias. also, I mean, the reason that our capital is Olympia of Washington, is because of the Olympia oysters. So when there was a campaign to You know, Seattle was running to be the capital. And I think Spokane was as well. Um, when people came to Olympia, they had this giant banquet and they were like, you should make Olympia our capital. And we're going to feed you all these delicious oysters. And that's actually why Olympia became the capital of our state. So yeah, just a little bit of Olympia history there because they're, they're a great oyster. If you've never had one, they have this very like, Oh, this description never makes people excited to eat them, but I hope that you will still stay excited to eat them after hearing this. But it's kind of like licking a penny. Like, it's very coppery. , and it's delicious. Um, and they are very [00:26:00] difficult to eat. to grow. Why is that? They just take so they're not very commercially viable because they take a long time to grow where we can produce Pacific oysters in maybe a year, year and a half.

The Olympias can take depending on the bay, three to five years. But we still grow them, and we still love them, and, um, there are quite a few wild Olympias in the Sound, and there's great groups, like the Puget Sound Restoration Fund, who is doing amazing work on trying to maintain our wild Olympia populations, And I, yeah, I just, I, they are really difficult to grow.

And when you pencil out, when you do the oyster farming math on them, in terms of profitability, it doesn't look great, but I still am pretty passionate about growing them and I'm really glad we grow them. 

Kevin: That's amazing though. It really does highlight how important oysters are, especially Olympias to the history of the place. So it's not just about the [00:27:00] merroir. Of the oysters that you may be enjoying on the plate in front of you, but it's actually about the whole history of the location and where these oysters grew that built it to what it is today. It's incredible. 

Jessie: That's true, and I think even going deeper than that, it's, it's also about traditional diets for, the native people here in the Puget Sound. Like, when you go back and you look at 10,000 year old shell middens, which are these, big mounds of oyster and clam shells and geoduck shells, of what people were traditionally eating. I mean, there's, there's quite a few Olympia oyster shells in there, um, Yeah, so Olympias are important and something that I feel like sometimes consumers can be a little shy to purchase them because they are expensive. There's a reason they're expensive. They take a long time to grow, but it's also really important to be buying and purchasing and supporting these foods because they, they help support traditional diets and they [00:28:00] help, give us a sense of place for the Puget Sound. 

Kevin: And as I recall, they're a little smaller than most of the other oysters. 

Jessie: They are small, so not only do they take a long time to grow, when you get them, they're like, you're like, really, this is a, this is an adult Olympia? They, yes, that is an adult Olympia, but they are, um, I'm trying to think of like something to compare them to, like maybe the size of a ping pong ball.They're pretty small.

Jessie: Well, actually I would think a lot of people who are maybe novices at eating half shell oysters probably liked them a little on the small side at first. Well, maybe forever. That's true. But the unique flavor, the licking a penny, description is great. have you had them before?

Kevin: I have, and I love them, but I, they really did have kind of a metallic taste to them. 

Jessie: Yeah. I would definitely say that, um, Olympia stick with you for a little while [00:29:00] in terms of that aftertaste in a good way. I mean, I, I do really like them, but they can be polarizing. Um, but their history should definitely not be polarizing. They're very important. 

Kevin: So when you're, when you're running the nursery, do you have your Olympia's in different silos than Pacifics or other oysters? 

Jessie: Yeah. So all these species need to be kept separate, and not mixed. And, that's a task within itself, but we do have a couple of different systems that help with helping us remember, this is what's here. This is what's here. Like, do, do not, the twins should not meet. Um, but we do, yeah, we keep them all separate 

Kevin: When you have a silo with a million little tiny babies in them. Can you tell the difference? 

Jessie: They do look distinct. Um, Um, I have had some mishaps in the flupsy, but they have gotten mixed and, um, they can be hard to separate, but you can do it. It's just, it's a little bit of like, huh? All right. Yeah. That's, that's an Olympia. So, um, 

Kevin: What's he doing [00:30:00] here? Get out, get back to your room. 

Jessie: Yeah. And you know, If that does happen, my, the beach managers at Hama will definitely let me know like, Jesse, come on, what'd you do with that batch? And I'm like, gosh, darn it guys. I'm sorry. Um, we've gotten better at it recently. So, there was a period of time where things were getting mixed quite a bit, but we've gotten, we've, we've adjusted some systems and it's made it a little bit easier. 

Kevin: Do they typically grow on the bottom or in, in baskets or how are Olympias grown?

Jessie: They do best. when they're grown really deep, they hate being cold and, naturally they would grow in sloughs. So they would constantly have water running over them. and so we end up growing them in, bay trays or in, in trays generally, we also do grow them in baskets that sit in the water kind of constantly. But we always have them super deep. [00:31:00] So we use a couple of different methods. We tend to not beach spread them because again, they're small and they can get lost in the mud pretty easily. But, um, so we use some type of container for them. 

Kevin: And I guess if they get lost in the mud, then they also can't get the food and the oxygen and that sort of thing that they need.

Jessie: Not great. They love being muddy though. I mean, naturally they're just like. Stacked on top of each other. Super duper deep, like in a really like muddy slough. but we definitely maintain them in a slightly different way when we're trying to, um, harvest them. 

Kevin: Now, when you say deep, typically how deep are your oysters? At least the ones on the bottom, I guess if they're in baskets, you can control the depth, but what's typical? 

Jessie: each of our locations has slightly different tidal swings. So that's kind of a hard question. Um, but most of our oysters are going to do the best around that, like somewhere within that, zero tide [00:32:00] to a slightly minus tide range. but each estuary is a little bit unique 

Kevin: Because I know that Hood Canal at least in certain parts is extraordinarily deep Is that because 

Jessie: yeah, so it's a it's a fjord. Yeah, exactly So it was it was carved out by a glacier, which is pretty cool. but the Hama Hama beach is 250 acres when the tide's out and , and you wouldn't know it when the tide's in but If you walk to the very edge of it on like a minus It literally, you get to the edge of it and it just drops off to like 700 feet right there.

Kevin: No kidding. it's pretty amazing. You don't want to walk too far out on a moonless night at low tide. 

Jessie: Not only that, uh, and I can tell you a silly story about that, but there's many different slews that go across our beach where the river is coming out. So even if you're walking, you're trying to walk back towards the [00:33:00] plant, but there's some of those river.

Uh, deltas are actually really deep, so you can't, you have to know where you're going when you're out on the beach. And I was actually out there once doing work. It was the middle of winter, so it was a night tide. And um, this is a lesson in being prepared, which I was not, but my headlamp went out and I was by myself.

Kevin: Oh no. 

Jessie: And what's lucky is we have a very, very bright light, at our headquarters, But I was pretty far out there by myself and so you're kind of going and you come to a big River slough and you're like, okay. Well, I'm gonna try here I'm gonna try for fjording and I tried a couple different spots a couple different times and I had to turn around and go back towards the other side. So I don't know it can it can be You just, you gotta be careful out there. 

Kevin: It sounds kind of scary. 

Jessie: It's kind of fun. The tide's coming up. You're like, Oh no, I gotta go. Maybe I should just swim it. And then you're like, no, that's a bad idea. 

Kevin: Water's goddamn cold too, [00:34:00] right? 

Jessie: It's cold. It's 2 AM. You're trying to make good choices, but. 

Kevin: And I suppose you're probably wearing waders. So they would like fill up with water and then you'd become a sea anchor against your will. 

Jessie: Yeah. And, you know, I say this and just everyone who's listening, Hama Hama does provide you with a headlamp. I just, um, didn't charge mine properly.

Kevin: Good to know. Always carry extra batteries or a battery pack or something like that. 

Jessie: Make good choices out there, guys. 

Kevin: Make good choices. Same thing you tell the kids. All right, kids down there in the silo, make good choices. 

Jessie: Make good choices. Eat a lot. 

Kevin: Now, I have heard about, different kinds of genetic development of oysters or genetic modifications so that you have your typical diploid, and then you have triploids.

Jessie: Yeah. 

Kevin: Tell me a little about that and what do you guys do? 

Jessie: Yeah. okay. So now we're getting into Pacifics. so again, we grow Olympias, Kumos, and then [00:35:00] Pacifics. And then in terms of what I'm tracking through the nursery system in, in terms of Pacifics, there's three strains or types. So they're all the same species. They're all Pacifics, but Pacifics are originally from Japan. And. there has been identified for the industry two main strains, and one is from northern Japan, and that's the, Miyagi, and that's what most of the industry is based on in terms of the genetics and what a lot of hatcheries are kind of rolling out. But, uh, a couple years ago, there was someone who identified a different strain that came from South Japan, and that's called the Midori. And there has been a lot of buzz around the Midori. Essentially because it's from Southern Japan, it's said to be a little bit more resilient in, in warm waters, right?

And, with climate change, the waters are getting a little bit warmer. So it seems like a good [00:36:00] idea. and so people have, uh, and by people, I mean, geneticists, um, amazing geneticists at hatcheries and universities in the United States have been really playing with the Midori strain, in order to see if we can use some of the, genetic adaptability, to that warmer water to help with oyster mortality.

So, there you go, we got, we got our Midori's, we got our Miyagi's, but then what geneticists have, um, it was first actually done with Atlantic oysters on the East coast, but since then, geneticists have also been able to take a diploid oyster 

Kevin: And what is a diploid? 

Jessie: What is a diploid? Um, it means it has two sets of chromosomes.

Okay. Thank you. Right. Um, just like us, which means that it's reproductive. So when it's, when it goes through reproduction and produces gametes or [00:37:00] any type of, reproductive cells, it's able to split directly in half and then be able to replicate that. and if something has a odd number of, chromosomes, then when it goes through, it's cycle to make reproductive cells, it's not able to copy those cells and make the correct number of cells for reproduction. And that makes a non-reproductive organism. So actually a really great example of this is, Horses and donkeys when they cross because they have a different number of chromosomes I think a horse has four and a donkey has two don't quote me on that but something like that when they reproduce it produces a Odd number of chromosomes and so you get a mule and a mule is non reproductive a mule can't reproduce. We also do this with plants. So, this is where like seedless watermelons come from. It's [00:38:00] essentially, we create a non-reproductive watermelon. 

Kevin: So then that means you have to continuously generate new babies since they're not going to reproduce themselves.

Jessie: Yeah, so um, we'll get back to that because that's okay really interesting the new research on this is actually incredible this genetic research and we're just scratching the surface here and I am not the best person to talk about this But I go to a lot of conferences and I talk to a lot of hatchery managers and I’m really jazzed about this stuff so I’m going to attempt to try to explain some of this or break it down in the way that I understand it, but essentially, every, the way that we are producing triploids right now, we have to, every generation, to produce that new generation, we have to have new parent lines, um, because those parent lines are non-reproductive. So it is a little complicated, but one of the things that they're working on right now, which is really exciting, is, um, We've [00:39:00] sequenced the DNA of an oyster, and right now they're trying to isolate which specific genes are what makes an oyster reproductive.

And then what you could do is, for each little, tiny baby oyster, you could go in there and use, RNA, to go into that genetic sequence and actually snip out those genes. The gene sequence that allows them to be reproductive. And all that would look like on a practical level is essentially putting this slurry of RNA DNA into a big vat of oyster larvae, and it would enter into that larvae and then everything in that batch would be a triploid. Right now, the way that they're having to do this is through chemical or temperature manipulation and it's. It's a little bit more, complex, so it would make the production of triploids even easier than it is [00:40:00] now, and a little bit quicker, so. And the other thing that it would do is it would allow you to play with lots of other aspects of the genetic sequence, or essentially the, It would allow you to do a lot more breeding in different directions and be able to focus on different, traits that you really liked on oysters and then whatever sort of traits you were enjoying that oyster, it would be easier to then go in and just have them be non-reproductive in that sort of generation. Does that make sense? 

Kevin: Okay. So I looked into this more to get a better understanding of just what Jesse was saying, and I immediately fell down the digital rabbit hole for a couple of hours. So let's begin with the basics. Deoxyribonucleic Acid, or DNA, is a molecule that contains our genetic code, the blueprint of life. Now DNA is a long double stranded molecule, or double helix, made up of bases located in the cell's nucleus. The order of these [00:41:00] bases determine the genetic code. blueprint similar to the way the order of letters in the alphabet are used to form words. And these DNA molecules are incredibly stable, which is why we can study the DNA of frozen woolly mammoths that died more than 10, 000 years ago. Now to read these blueprints the double helical DNA is unzipped to expose its individual strands, and an enzyme translates them into a mobile intermediate message called a Ribonucleic Acid. RNA. This intermediate message carries the instructions for making proteins. So, if you modify the message in the RNA, it can go back and modify the DNA. In this way, geneticists can try and modify and then reproduce exactly what traits they like in an oyster and keep out those they don't. So once the scientists get it right, if they can, then they can do it over and over again. That's my super-simplified explanation of what Jesse was saying.

Kevin: So you can [00:42:00] actually manipulate the oyster, not just from a reproductibility perspective, but also for like, more resistant to different diseases or temperatures or something like that? 

Jessie: Uh, well, we're not there yet. I think that genetics has come a long way in the last couple years, a lot of different like disease resistance is a multi-gene sequence. And so it's not that easy, but they're finding that reproduction may be that easy. So there's certain aspects of traits where it's really just one specific. gene sequence that you could change. But most of everything that has to do with disease resistance or other things like that are multi gene. So it's not that simple, but we're hoping that just in terms of making them non reproductive or making them into a triploid. It could just be that easy. but then what that would allow you in your breeding program is to be able to, uh, [00:43:00] really focus on other traits and not just be thinking about whether or not this is going to be a triploid. And it would give you a lot more freedom. to really focus on other aspects of your breeding program. Does that, does that kind of? 

Kevin: So what kind of oysters we see today may not be the same kind exactly that we see tomorrow or 10 years from now. 

Jessie:  Yeah, I, I just have a lot of belief that where we're going with genetics, is really going to be a key, a multi part key in, adaptation to climate change. So, really there's a lot of very smart people working on this and I'm very happy they are. 

Kevin: The hatcheries send to you when you buy the seed, they tell you if these are diploids or triploids or whatever. And you care for them differently, I suspect. 

Jessie: Not really. It's pretty much all the same. It's just how we then employ them onto the beaches. So, whether they're an Olympia, a Kumo, a Triploid, a Diploid, a [00:44:00] Midori, a Miyagi, they're all oysters at the end of the day. But what we do do is we use different growing methods. It's on the beaches in order to accommodate for that and, we really haven't gotten to the heart of like, well, triploids, why the heck are you putting all the work into doing that? You just talked about some really complicated science, like what's the point? The point is that when oysters spawn. in July, they get creamy and they spend all of their energy to go into reproduction. And so their meat quality goes down. So they've got this weird, creamy, essentially spermy flavor. And they also are kind of expending all that energy and all of the sugars that are in them. And so they're just not as delicious. And so the hope is that, triploid oysters, which are non-reproductive are not going to be putting all their energy into reproduction, so they're not going to be creamy, and they'll still be fat, [00:45:00] sugary and succulent, through that sort of spawning phase. We are on the West Coast generally with Pacifics experiencing greater levels of mortality with our triploids than our diploids and that, um, we still don't entirely know why. So there is a lot of growers who just will not grow triploids. They're like, they die. 

Kevin: Is the mortality usually out on the beach or when it's in the water as opposed to in the nursery because You're paying so much attention to the babies or what what kind of mortality issues do you deal with?

Jessie: I would love to think that it's my husbandry that are keeping babies from dying. But generally, in just in general terms things do tend to not die in the flupsy. They tend to die on the hatchery level. They tend to die on the beach level, but just across the board, things tend to die less in the flupsy, um, which is great for me.

Um, but, but, uh, it's not just, it's not just me that's making that happen. Um, so yes, it is mostly [00:46:00] on the beach level that we are seeing. seeing those issues. and you know, for us, we've experimented with a lot of different types of oysters and a lot of different types of places. And we have some beaches where triploids work really well for us and some beaches where they don't work as well.

And really, we're just trying to use triploids to get us through that period of time where things are spawned out, they're skinny, their meat quality is not as good. And so we mostly employ triploids at our beaches where we really are harvesting from like in that, July to October window. 

Kevin: So that kind of compensates for the, what I believe, is actually inaccurate, that you only eat oysters in months ending with R or something like that. Is that because the other months are when it's warm and they're spawning? Or are they actually not fit to eat? 

Jessie: [00:47:00] they're absolutely fit to eat. Really that wives tale comes from the fact that when waters are warmer, there's more bacteria in the water, naturally occurring bacteria. And so as a general rule, you are more likely to get sick when the waters are warmer by eating raw oysters, raw products. Um, if you have a good farmer. that shouldn't happen, though. I mean, we do everything in our power to try to keep people from getting sick in the summer. And we produce quite a few oysters in the summer. And, really, the reason that we have a lot of beaches is we kind of stop harvesting raw product from the Hood Canal in the summer because the water gets very warm in the Hood Canal, and we actually move up closer to the Strait of Juan de Fuca. So, Port Townsend or, northern Puget Sound for our oyster production in the summer. 

Kevin: Where you've got that cold pacific water rushing in through the strait and [00:48:00] keeping everything chilled, right?

Jessie: Exactly. The water's way colder up there. By sometimes, I mean, we're talking 15 degrees. 

Kevin: No kidding. Wow, that's, that's a big difference. 

Jessie: It can be 70 degrees in the canal, in the summer. It's pretty sweet. It's pretty nice. 

Kevin: Having been to your nursery that one time, at the end with the door open on the edge of the water, even though it was cold, it looked really nice to dive into it. So I'd probably be one of the people in the water. 

Jessie: Yeah, I've definitely been swimming in Oakland Bay, both by choice and not by choice. So 

Kevin: What kind of “not by choice” swims have you had? 

Jessie: Oh, I mean, falls, you know, slip, trips, falls. Uh, as much as you try to prevent it, it's, it's, it can be hard. I also have locked, my keys into a part of the flupsy that I couldn't access except by water. So I'd had to, I've had to swim to go get my keys before, which has been fun. 

Kevin: So you actually, so you can't get in and you have to wade down into the water and swim around. Is that it? 

Jessie: [00:49:00] That's happened once or twice. 

Kevin: I would love to have been a fly on the wall, hearing what you were muttering when you were doing that. 

Jessie: Don't be late. Don't be late. Don't be late. Gotta go swimming. Gotta go swimming. 

Kevin: So let me step back for a minute. How did you get into this? You know, you, you were land farming before you ever joined Hama Hama, right? 

Jessie: I was, yeah, I do have a degree in agriculture and, my background was in plant genetics, crop genetics. and I had been land farming for about, 10 years before I found Hama Hama. and believe it or not, I found Hama Hama on Craigslist. 

Kevin: On Craigslist, 

Jessie: I found Hama Hama on Craigslist. So, just a girl on Craigslist, love Craigslist. and so, After college, I went down to central California and I worked in the central valley, picking tomatoes long 12, 13 hour days, picking tomatoes, back breaking work, and I learned so [00:50:00] much doing it, but I think the big thing that it gave me appreciation for is just, um, at the migrant farmers who really make our food system go round.

Um, and I worked alongside of people, Spanish speaking folks who, We're recent immigrants who really I mean makes our food system happens I did that for a couple years and I Could have stayed down there if it wouldn't have been for some of the wildfires that were happening They freaked me out and I needed to get back to somewhere with water and so I left and I came back up to Washington State and I managed a Organic farm that worked directly with incarcerated women currently incarcerated women as a re reentry program for the incarcerated women. So I was doing like nonprofit social work, and running a reentry program. All the food that we produced went directly to food banks and it was an awesome program. I really loved that job. But when the [00:51:00] pandemic happened, incarcerated folks, ended up getting totally locked down and there was no more reentry program and that program kind of fell apart.

So then I joined on and I, I was working with a farmer cooperative, a farmer grain cooperative, and I was helping kind of broker deals between organic barley producers and, trying to get a rail line set up in, western Washington to get that stuff to, different facilities that helped make the barley into a usable product for the brewing industry.

And it was a fun job. I love that job, but I can't be in front of a computer for too long. And that is actually when I found Hama Hama. and so really I'm three years into working for Hama and, I. Love working with oysters and working with the ocean. It's, it was a hard transition to go from a lot of tractor experience, a lot of crop growing [00:52:00] experience, and then break into a totally new industry, but it has been such a joy. And I I'm really lucky at Hama because all of the folks who I work with at a management level have been doing this, essentially their entire life. They've grown up on the canal. And I am really the only person who is fairly new to it within, our farm management team. And they are all such incredible mentors to me. And I am very, very lucky. Um, yeah. So that's a little bit about my background and, uh, how I got into it was kind of, Just a whim in Craigslist and now I'm here. 

Kevin: So there you are just surfing the net chimping on your phone and it's like I wonder what's for sale on Craigslist and you see Oyster farmer, or what was the listing like?

Jessie: Um, I think it was for, the nursery lead. And I had done some like greenhouse work, of course, managing [00:53:00] farms. and I was like, how different can it be from producing tomatoes? And it is really different than producing tomatoes. Turns out not that much different though. at the end of the day, plants, animals, people, they all just need to be fed, taken care of, and, given what they need to be set up and happy. So. 

Kevin: it's, it's still farming. It's just a different kind of farming, right? 

Jessie: All I want to do in life is produce food. I don't really care how, where, when, why, but I do, I just love growing things. 

Kevin: You must have been one of the only non-migrant workers there, because I don't think there are a lot of, people looking to, you know, produce food. Besides migrant pickers and farmers around the country. 

Jessie: There was a couple other people who are my age who are doing it too. I mean, we were living in yurts. We were. Um,we were weird hippies. It's okay to admit it. Um, 

Kevin: It just makes it cooler and frankly it makes the tomatoes taste better as [00:54:00] far as I'm concerned. So, 

Jessie: Oh, I mean, yeah, those cherry tomatoes from that part of California when they're fresh, they're incredible. 

Kevin: Just a quick moment on the incarcerated women's program you did. Any, what kind of results, have you heard from any of the people? Have they been released and, gone into farming or anything like that?

Jessie: Yeah. A couple of women who are in the program, um, they now work, I'm still friends with some of them. And they, there's one woman who does work in like a floral nursery actually out on the peninsula. she's the only one that I know who has actually gone into farming, but in terms of some of the other women, I mean, I'm very proud of one of the women who I work with who is now a legal aid and she's actually working. As much as she can with her previous background, because there is some issues with getting involved with the legal system. If you do have a record, but as much as she can to try to help other people navigate the bureaucracy of the legal system, she is [00:55:00] It's incredible, um, and then some of the other women that I worked with, um, I'm pretty passionate about beekeeping and teaching women how to beekeep and, um, beekeeping was a big part of our program and a lot of them still keep bees and so they'll just send me like beekeeping updates and, um, you know, there's, there's a lot around, sort of, farming and helping people who have had experience, experiences that have caused PTSD. So, whether that be former military folks or people who have been formerly incarcerated. And, and so, I've heard from so many people who have some form of PTSD from whatever sort of trauma in their past. Who have um had bees and the the sound the buzzing of bees is like a totally calming thing And the rhythmic like watching of them going in and out of their hive is this very calming thing Uh, we're getting a little far away from oysters, but um, I do know that like, even with [00:56:00] farming or being on a boat, there's this like gentleness to the rocking, to being out there, to the sounds of the waves. And I think that that can really help people who are trying to like overcome some of that, those past things in their life. 

Kevin: Yeah. You have an amazing job and you sound like one of the most highly qualified people for it. As a matter of fact there was an oyster book which came out last year. I think it was called The Joy Of Oysters and the person who wrote it, Nils Bernstein, I believe, saw how amazing you are and included you in that book. 

Jessie: No, I appreciate that. I think that one thing that's nice about working at Hama is, Our Vice President of Shellfish, Lissa, is so good at marketing that, she has built so much hype around our brand that I feel like I've been able to meet some amazing people from working there, um, and I've got my picture taken a lot and I don't really always know where it ends up, but that's kind of cool that I ended up in a book.

Kevin: So I have to ask you, you enjoy [00:57:00] eating oysters as well as, raising them, right? 

Jessie: Yes. 

Kevin: You ever feel a little guilty, like, oh my babies, I'm gonna eat them now?

Jessie: No, I don't. Actually, you know, the first time I ever raised oysters was actually at, in college, we had a shellfish club, and we actually raised oysters out on a beach. Beach, um, in, in college. So this is 

Kevin: What college was that 

Jessie: The Evergreen State College? Yeah, it's pretty cool. Um, but I, the only reason I bring this up is that our club, the Shellfish Club actually collaborated with the Vegan Club at the time, because oysters don't have a central nervous system. And so they, by some vegans are actually considered a vegan food. It depends on the reason why you're vegan, but, because they don't have a central nervous system, they actually can't feel when they're being shucked. 

Kevin: Quick sidebar. I looked into this idea of vegan oysters, since oysters are living animals, the assumption would be that they're not vegan. However, like [00:58:00] Jessie said, there's a growing school of vegan thought that, as oysters don't have a central nervous system or brain, they're not believed to be sentient and don't feel pain. As a result, some people who become vegan for reasons of animal cruelty may make an exception knowing that ultimately oysters don't feel, well, anything. Also, as lots of people go vegan for environmental reasons, some make an exception for oysters due to its sustainable and environmentally friendly farming practices. This kind of controversial subset of veganism even has its own name, Austroveganism, from the Latin word Austreia meaning oyster. But get this, cell cultured startup Perlita Foods in North Carolina, has successfully created the world's first actually vegan oyster that they say looks and tastes just like a traditional one. It's made using plant and cell-based technologies with a proprietary mushroom and seaweed foundation as well as a novel flavor mixture that supposedly gives the [00:59:00] oyster a pure, delicate, and authentic ocean taste and texture. So who knows what's next? 

Jessie: And so no, I don't feel bad about it. 

Kevin: That's a great answer. 

Jessie: They're also such an incredible sustainable protein, like, when we're talking about needing to produce protein for the amount of people who now walk our planet, oysters and insects are kind of a really cool sustainable protein source to be thinking about.

Kevin: There's even a movement toward eating more insects as well. People are starting to kind of get the idea. 

Jessie: It's trendy. I was at the hardware store the other day and there was like salt and pepper crickets as a snack. At the hardware store and this was like somewhere in the rural Washington and I was just like, okay, we're doing it We're doing it. So I think that yeah, I mean smoked oysters and salt and pepper crickets. Let's go.

Kevin: Do you have a favorite kind of oyster you like to eat? 

Jessie: Yeah, I I would say Olympia oysters are definitely one of my favorite oysters and I I just They really they [01:00:00] make me think about history a lot and I just get really excited about the history of them and I think that connection for me is It's just too good to be true. I also, I love oysters from Discovery Bay and we have one beach in Discovery Bay. We call it the Disco Oyster and they're sometimes hard to find. We usually have them like October through December. Um, they're very seasonal for us, but for whatever reason, I love those oysters. They are so complex and they're just, you know, they're a, They're a Pacific, but, um, they're one of my favorites.

Kevin: What do they have like a kaleidoscope of striped shells, like fancy pants for disco dancing and stuff like that. 

Jessie: They do often have really beautiful striated purple shells, like gorgeous. but they also, I think because they're so close to the Strait of Juan de Fuca, they really do feel like a wave hit you in the face, they're very salty, very briny. And, they're, they're almost a little bit skunky. Like they're a [01:01:00] bold oyster. They're going for it. And I love, I love our Hamas and Olympias and they're so mild and cucumbery. and I eat a lot of them. And so I think sometimes when I eat a disco and it's just like, bam, I'm like, wow, I really wanted that right now.

Kevin: That sounds fantastic. I've tried to describe to some of the farmers here. What it's like to eat oysters from the Pacific Northwest and the cucumberiness, the lettuciness, that umami. 

Jessie: we, we actually teach an oyster class at Hama Hama, and we bring in Atlantic oysters, we bring in oysters from several different inlets within the Puget Sound, and then also, like some other oysters from around the United States and just let people taste them all. And really get a sense of merroir. It's fun. If you ever want a good party idea for people who are a little bit bougie just get some good wine and just buy in a bunch of oysters from all around the US because it's it's a good time 

Kevin: There's always something about any job that no matter [01:02:00] how great the job is sucks What's that for you?

Jessie: This has always been the case for me with agriculture, and the only reason I'm saying this is if there's other farmers out there, I just want to spread the PSA. Um, every year, around December, January of every year, I have this existential crisis about whether I want to be a farmer still, and it's because I love to grow things, and I feel so energized by watching things grow, and then when things don't grow as much, I don't think I'm doing a good job because my whole purpose is to just grow things. so really winters are pretty tough and I would say that the crappiest part is just, um, being respectful of my own need to be involved with the seasonal patterns. Like, I can't just keep going nonstop all the time. Everything can't just keep growing constantly. You kind of need a rest period. So it can be hard for me to slow [01:03:00] down and rest. I think I'm getting better at it as I get older. But Seriously, that, I mean, that's, that's it is, is when things stop growing, I get kind of sad. 

Kevin: Yeah, so you're like one of those type A sort of overachievers that when things aren't growing, you blame yourself somehow for it, even though it's the natural way of things.

Jessie: I'm trying to get better at it. It's interesting though, I have talked to other farmers who have felt the same thing before. And, you can kind of think that you're lazy, or you can kind of, you can kind of assign all these, things to yourself, and then you realize, no, it's just the dead of winter, and I just need to take a nap. It's okay. 

Kevin: Sounds to me like there may be a whole new, mental health care industry called, like, agro-therapy, or something like that, where you work on these issues. 

Jessie: For sure. For sure. So, you know, there is, there's this new hobby that I kind of want to get into though, which is growing. Have you seen the people who grow coral?

So like so many of my hobbies are [01:04:00] related to like it being beautiful outdoors and like me being able to go outside So I think I need like a I think I need a winter hobby where I get to grow something So i'm kind of trying to work on that. So Um, my answer is winters and when I can't grow anything 

Kevin: Yeah, I get that you just need to go out into the snow and play more in the winters and, get the growing out of your mind for a few months. 

Jessie: It's hard for me, though. When you're in constant planning, because you've got to be planning during the winter, but then nothing's happening, so then you're just like, this is dumb.

Kevin: That's true. So, if the hatcheries are in places, warm places like Hawaii they're still creating babies for you to plan on taking care of. Do you ever receive them in the winter or do you receive them like now? 

Jessie: I wait till about now they do start, you know, January is usually the kickoff season for a lot of hatcheries, but it takes a couple of weeks before they get up to size for me. I do start to get calls from hatcheries in February, but again, it goes back to, I find that if I get oysters in February, [01:05:00] they stare at me, they look at me and they're really upset about being moved from really warm waters, which I get. And so I, you know, have used sort of the observational data of when it makes the most sense for us to get, oysters to kind of guide my choices.

Kevin: Do you talk to your oysters? Like people talk to their plants? 

Jessie: I do say goodbye to them every time I leave the flupsy. 

Kevin: Really, kind of like tucking them in, kissing them goodnight, that sort of thing. 

Jessie: Sure. I mean, there's, there's so many studies. I mean, you've probably seen these about like people saying mean things to plants and then it, it affecting the plants. So I, um, I used to teach that to the incarcerated women that I worked with, like that, you know, what you tell other people and what you tell the plants around you is that what they pick up on. And so, yeah, I definitely try to keep that with my oysters too. 

Kevin: Do you have a particular thing you say to them when you say goodbye or goodnight?

Jessie: Just goodbye. Just see you later. Do good things. 

Kevin: It's not like you read, like, Good [01:06:00] Night Moon or anything that loud to them? 

Jessie: No, I don't sing to them. I don't really do any of that stuff. I just, you know, I acknowledge their, beings and that we are parting ways for a little while. 

Kevin: So, they really are your babies.

Jessie: Yeah, for the lack of better terms. I mean, they're my, they're my, uh, compadres in, in trying to make sure that our community gets fed for sure. 

Kevin: Well, I think that's actually a perfect way to bring this to a close because feeding the community you are and you're feeding them with some of the best damn oysters I've ever had in my life. So, congratulations on what you and the other good people at Hama Hama are doing. 

Jessie: Thank you so much for having me. And thanks for working around my. sort of like one word text messages as you're trying to like nail me down where I'm just like, yes, no. Okay. 

Kevin: I realized it's really hard to leave a nice message when you're swimming across canals or falling into the water and you know so 

Jessie: my hands are often wet but I, [01:07:00] I do appreciate the opportunity to come and just kind of geek out a little bit

Kevin: Well, that's it for this episode of OYSTER-ology. Thanks to my great guests, Jesse Honiker. As always, show notes can be found on this episode's page. And if you enjoyed it please rate or review it on whatever podcast platform you listen in on. I'm your host, Kevin Cox. Join me next week when we pry open the shell of another interesting OYSTER-ology topic.