Episode 20: The Oyster Book - Dan Martino shucks open the world of aquaculture

In this episode of OYSTER-ology, we hear from Dan Martino, author of The Oyster Book, A Chronicle of the World’s Most Fascinating Shellfish - Past, Pesent, and Future (Agate 2024). Dan and I discuss the recent publication of this, his first book. In our conversation Dan shares both serious and lighthearted insights into why he wrote the book, detailing his experiences overcoming local resistance and emphasizing the importance of transparency and education in aquaculture. He talks about the rich content of his book, including the history, present state, and future of oysters, and how the book has evolved into a valuable resource and even a textbook for understanding and starting an oyster farm. We also talk about broader topics like climate change, ocean acidification and the ecological significance of oysters. This very lively discussion highlights the transformation from an educational struggle to understand oysters into a comprehensive guide for enthusiasts, wannabe farmers and academic students of aquaculture.

Dan was also a guest in a prior episode where he spoke about his creating and running Cottage City Oysters, on Martha’s Vinyard (S1, Ep17). 

00:00 Welcome to OYSTER-ology

00:11 The Inspiration Behind 'The Oyster Book'

00:56 Challenges and Transparency in Oyster Farming

01:59 Educational Outreach and Public Interest

02:43 The Birth of the Oyster Farm Tour

03:57 Writing 'The Oyster Book' During the Pandemic

05:38 The Comprehensive Guide to Oyster Farming

06:08 Publishing Success and Public Reception

15:31 Technical Insights: Diploids vs. Triploids

20:44 Environmental Impact and Future of Oyster Farming

31:56 The Writing Process and Book Promotion

35:36 Future Plans and Final Thoughts

Links:

The Oyster Book at Amazon. (https://www.amazon.com/Oyster-Book-Chronicle-Fascinating-Shellfish_Past)

Cottage City Oysters website (https://cottagecityoysters.com/)

Please be sure to Like and Follow OYSTER-ology wherever you listen to podcasts, and tell others about it. Every positive mention of it helps more people find the podcast!

Transcript

[00:00:00]

Dan: I realized man, I'm a big nerd, Who sits at home on their Saturday night and doing a bunch of research about, oyster fossils in the Triassic period. And it turns out that I'm that guy. So I think my writing's the same way, right? I'm able to take some of these complex issues And just make it real dumb so that even an idiot like me, gets to understand it,

Kevin: Welcome to OYSTER-ology, a podcast about the wide world of oysters, aquaculture, and everything from spat to shuck. I'm your host and the Foodwalker, Kevin Cox. My guest today is Dan Martino, who in the course of starting and operating an oyster farm on Martha's Vineyard, discovered the challenges of both understanding oysters enough to farm them, and of the many hurdles one has to clear in order to even start a farm. If this sounds familiar, that's because Dan was my guest on a previous episode about his deep ocean oyster farming at Cottage City Oysters [00:01:00] where he told us his very interesting story. If you want to hear that again, it's episode 17 and totally worth a listen.

Today Dan is back to talk about his recent book, appropriately called The Oyster Book. It grew unexpectedly out of Dan's need to do so much research to learn about oysters and how to make them thrive on his farm, that he unexpectedly realized that he had a book on his hands. Conceived during the downtime of the COVID-19 Pandemic, the Oyster Book dissects the past, present, and future potential of oysters. It isn't just a chronicle, but rather a treatise for aspiring oyster farmers, and it's a narrative of the oyster's ecological impact over time.

Dan explains his intention to fill a gap. He experienced himself a comprehensive resource on oyster farming, didn't exist. And now it does. But he didn't stop there. Dan also explores how oysters counterbalance effects like ocean acidification and nutrient pollution, positioning them as keystone in our environmental efforts going forward. [00:02:00] As he reflects on the world's failing industrial agricultural systems. Dan advocates for a future where oysters and other historically-resilient species can play a crucial role. 

The Oyster Book is a beacon calling for attention to our planet's needs and the beautiful intricacies of its ecosystems. So put on your reading glasses and settle into a comfortable chair to hear about the ancient importance of oysters. The danger of ocean acidification; the accidental process of writing a book; our failing industrial agricultural complex; algae; microalgae; and phytoplankton; Victorian diatom dinner parties; where the oxygen we breathe really comes from; and food production in a climate changing world, with unassuming author, oyster farmer, and science geek who proves that being a closet nerd is very cool. Dan Martino.

Kevin: Dan, welcome to OYSTER-ology. I'm so glad to have you here. [00:03:00] We've talked before about Cottage City Oysters and the incredible stuff you're doing there. But what I want to talk to you about today is your recent book called The Oyster Book, a Chronicle of the World's Most Fascinating Shellfish Past, Present and Future.

Dan: Thanks Kevin. as you know, I think, the resource you're putting together here, and the information that you're recording with everybody is super-valuable. So just first, thanks for letting me be a part of it. That's awesome.

Kevin: It's my pleasure. The Oyster Book kind of charts out, where we are, how we got here. And I think even more importantly, where we're going in terms of oysters, aquaculture. feeding the planet and all of that kind of thing. And, I wanted to start just by asking what inspired you to take the time and effort and write this book?

Dan: When I was trying to get my oyster farm in the beginning got in a lawsuit with the neighbors who abutted the waterfront that where our [00:04:00] farm was going to be and And a lot of that was because they didn't know how a oyster farm should you… What it should look like or how an oyster farm acted or, just, they did not know what an oyster farm was. And so therefore, you know, human instinct, uh, your first reaction to change is fear. And everything that kind of goes along with that. 

So, from the very beginning of getting our farm, education and transparency on the operation has been first and foremost, because we basically had to, educate the local community on how oyster farms worked, and then educate those abutters on how it worked, and the selectmen on how it worked, and make sure that if they wanted to come out to our operation and see it, we were able to accommodate that. So transparency has always been a number one, principle for us. And then, kind of through this evolution of, teaching aquaculture in our local schools and [00:05:00] then bringing those kids out to the farm.

And then the kid's parents want to come out to the farm and then colleges start calling us and they hear that there's a farm. In their local area that wants to, open the door and let students come out and see how it all works. So we started generating, kind of a by word of mouth that, Hey, here's this cool oyster farm on the vineyard that you can just email them or call the guys and they'll let you check it out.

And through that, over those couple years of doing that, we started to realize that the general public, had, uh, you know, in interest in seeing where oysters came from and how it all worked. So we started a tour operation as part of our farm. And that was basically, a boat and you come out with me and for an hour we BYOB and we harvest the freshest oysters possible. And we eat them while we're sitting on the farm and we watch,everybody harvesting oysters and the equipment and how it all works. And this is really, it's a really like [00:06:00] magical thing to be a part of, to be able to eat your food where it's grown with the people that have grown it.

Whether it's an oyster or a banana, right? And then, and so through that, those tours over the last couple years, people ask really intelligent questions about oyster farming and, the history of oysters and who was the first oyster farmer or how do they do it in France or,

So through that process, through the questions that people would ask us on the tour, I, as the host, I feel the need to have those answers for people, right? If I'm paying money to go on a tour and I ask a question, the guy better have the answer. 'cause I, I'm paying a lot of money for the answer, right? So I start compiling this information. I start, kind of coming up with a spiel that I talk about on the boat and the history of oyster farming and the history of the vineyard and our farm and how it all works.

And then COVID hits 2019 and I'm locked in my house and I, the tours have stopped and we're not harvesting a lot of oysters [00:07:00] and I'm kind of, I think in a attempt to not forget the information that I had learned, I start to actually write it all down and I'm compiling this information. And we're still locked in our houses and we're still bleaching our doorknobs because there's the COVID virus going around.

And, and so, eventually I end up with this timeline of the history of oyster farming and kind of how did it start? Who was the first guy that did it, to present day and how does it work? And. And then I keep diving in and doing more research and realizing there's really no books written on this subject, to the depth that I was seeking.

And so then I started learning about how phytoplankton and algae is the first form of life that ever appeared on earth and how oysters are one of the first animals to ever evolve in the history of Earth. How they've survived multiple extinction events to, To present day, to, where humans have basically eaten 99 percent of them all now and we've become the [00:08:00] extinction level event for these oysters and, and then I, so I get this really beautiful chronological timeline of oysters and their relationship to earth and man and then I'm like, what else do I know?

And I start talking about, how oyster babies are made or. The different ways of farming oysters, and I start looking at France and Japan and how do they farm oysters? And so I'm compiling this information and I start to realize that I am right like I'm writing a book, right? And it's not a book, you know necessarily for me. It's a book that I kind of wish I had when I had started out something that outlined all the different ways I could farm or all the different things to think about when you're getting into farming. so, I think it was a process of two or three years of actually writing this book, staying up at night and kind of writing it that I realized, I've got a book, it's going to be formulated in a past, a present and a future [00:09:00] kind of, structure. And I write it and I pitch it, to a bunch of publishers and I get multiple offers for it.

Kevin: Wow.

Dan: So it's kind of how it all, and I just Googled, food publishers and who would be interested in this book?

Kevin: So that's amazing that you just found yourself gathering this information. I mean, you must, it's very well written, I have to say too. So you're obviously a very good writer, but you must also really enjoy research and diving deep into something because, your historical guide.

Dan: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Kevin: To oysters, I thought was, I mean, it goes way back and it was really comprehensive. And, you hit it all.

Dan: yeah, and it got to the point where, I kind of made a full fledged effort of Well, if I'm gonna write this, I need to hit it all. Cause nobody had, it's easy to kind of just quit, right? And be like, alright, that's good enough, But the reality is like, There was so much information that you, It kind of, the layers kept unfolding, And you could kind of [00:10:00] keep going down these rabbit holes, and I've realized too, man, I'm a big nerd, Who sits at home on their Saturday night and doing a bunch of research about, oyster fossils in the Triassic period.

and it turns out that I'm that guy. 

Kevin: So you're the guy. 

Dan: Yeah. But I love it. Like you look at like the greater society of humankind and there's a lot of people way smarter than me, but. What's so amazing with the internet is you could just pull that shit up and yeah, you can actually Research and you get smarter like the first scientific research paper you read You don't understand much of the jargon that they're talking about But you know after doing a thousand of them, you actually start to understand like you can read these things like books So, I love it man

Kevin: Well, I think it's so interesting You how you did it and that you did it really in a way, not withstanding the tragedy of the pandemic, it gave you the time to actually do that. So that was kind of a gift that you had that, the [00:11:00] ability to do it during that time.

Dan: For sure. 

Kevin: It took you a couple of years.

Dan: Yeah, it took a couple of years, but what's funny is it ends up, the first, a couple of drafts of it were egotistical where I was writing about like, how does the farm, how, what did I do on my Saturday or like whatever it might be.

But once. Once you reach the point of right, this is not self serving at all, this is actually a lot of information that could help a lot of people, or at least document this history of Earth that, hasn't been documented before, it takes on a different, level of motivation, where it almost felt like I had to write this stuff, and I had to keep researching it, and I had to get to the very bottom of the barrel on whatever subject, because otherwise it felt like nobody else was going to do it, right?

So it was actually a chance to kind of make a mark, in literature of Hey, this might have some longstanding content to it.

Kevin: It really kind of reads like a blueprint for both the past and the [00:12:00] future. And it's,by understanding the history, the way you've laid it out, And then taking that and say, okay, now let's look at what we have today. But it's not just historical, it's not just theoretical, you actually create a roadmap about how to do what you do. Tell me a little bit about why you decided to do that. Like how to get a farm, how to get oysters, the different oysters, the methods of growing, you really laid that out.

Dan: I think very clearly. It's what I wish I had when I was starting out. one of the, I've learned one of the best ways to if I want to start. A cigar rolling business, right? The first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to read a book on how to start a cigar rolling business. That would be a good place to start. And I, I didn't have, there was no book out there for me when I was starting out. It was the old school approach of, well, you got to find a mentor and go work for them, for free, like I did. And you [00:13:00] go get that knowledge. And then you, if you're smart enough, you listen to what that mentor says.

And you try to apply that to your own. Your own business and your own farm. So, right, when it gets into like the, the past section is the historical reference and I did try to weave it as if it was like a narrative story. But you get to the present section of the book, and it's right, how would somebody, how does it work to get a farm?

Because it is a very complex process, unlike land farming where you can go buy an acre and, as long as it's zoned, for agriculture, you're off and running on whatever species you want. ocean farming is very regulatory and, you have to get a permit for each individual species that you want to grow.

And it's very complicated. it was a two and a half year process just for me to get my permit. So, if I could,put that information out there, hopefully it helps. Can excel somebody to move a little bit faster than I was able to [00:14:00] do it. And then that benefits the industry on its own.

Kevin: Since writing that book, do you look back at what you went through and think how you might do it differently?

Dan: Yeah. I'm a big believer in just that everything kind of happens as it's supposed to happen. If it had been any different, I probably wouldn't have failed or learn the things that I need to know today to have made that, to have made everything possible. So, yeah, I'm a big believer in like things don't happen for a reason, but you're paying attention to the things that do happen. That's who makes you kind of who you are today.

Kevin: One of the things that I thought was really interesting is as you're writing about how to start a farm and the permitting process, you're also, you're giving a narrative of your own experiences. And it sounds like your experience was pretty challenging at times. And you, how many different, Agencies. Did you go through? 

Dan: It's a lot, man. It's 12 it's, and everyone has their own standard and their own [00:15:00] permit and that sort of thing and their own application process and their own, I mean, it's yeah, it's like a college acceptance 12 times.

It's like that kind of process. Right. and you have to draw all schematics and diagrams of what gear you're using and what is the low tide and high tide depths and how will that gear interact with. Potential endangered animals. And I mean, it's crazy. And so that was part of the future section is it's not only talking about who might eat oysters in the future, but it's also what can we do to speed up the adoption of this industry?

Right. And so one of the suggestions is for local towns and governments to do that permitting ahead of time so that individuals who. For the most part, don't have the ability to actually get through that process. If the towns do it, they can expedite, the permitting of farms. And so it makes it so that an applicant just has to come up and apply to the town.

They don't necessarily have to apply to the [00:16:00] federal government and the state government, that would be a huge, it's a huge advantage. All of a sudden you're opening a lot more doors for people to get. To get in and farm the ocean than currently exists now.

Kevin: You mentioned to me when we were talking offline that the book is being used as a textbook of some sort, tell me a little bit about that.

Dan: Yeah, and that was, that, that actually, what, what's hard is like when you decide that you're writing a book, then you're like, well, is it a fiction book? I hope it's entertaining. I hope it's not a textbook. And this book's kind of all those things. It's dry, but it's funny or it's a textbook or it's a, it's a story about a dude.

 So part of the hope was being so detail oriented, about how the industry works, was that people would be able to pick up the book and get basically a quick download of how it all works

Kevin: Yeah. It does read like a textbook, but not dry like a textbook, [00:17:00] because it has a lot of personal accounts and discussion.

Dan: It, yeah, it definitely, It was written almost as a textbook. And when I'm like, was done with that section and it's turned into the publisher, I'm man, that's pretty boring and dry.

It's like a, but like people have told me too, it's awesome. You went into these details, but if I don't want to know it, I can just skip ahead, Which is brilliant too. That's the beauty of a book, right? It's not like a movie where you have to sit there and watch, it's a book. And if you don't want to know how babies are made, then you can just get through that part.

Kevin: Right.

Dan: But yeah, multiple universities now are using it as required reading, for environmental studies or aquaculture classes. But it's I mean and I even like we have these college kids that come out on the farm And I tell them straight up I'm like man for the money you're spending on your college degree to learn how to oyster farm You could have gotten your own farm made enough mistakes And come out ahead probably with a bunch of oysters.

Kevin: So I imagine your sales have been pretty good since the book came out.

Dan: [00:18:00] Yeah. I don't know what to even base. Uh, like I don't know what's good. I'm still waiting for my said publishers do six month reports. it hasn't even been out for six months yet, so

Kevin: You also talk a lot about the kind of the technical things about oysters. And one of the things that you focus on is the classic diploids and triploids scenario that people have.

Dan: So, Triploids were, it's kind of like mules, where the oyster gets an extra chromosome. So it doesn't spawn, it doesn't put any energy into procreating. So it remains this plump meat year round. And so when this was invented, it was amazing, because there was concern back in the day that, they didn't want to eat something that had spawned out. Right. So, but the other positive, is that, It also means you can place triploid oysters into non native [00:19:00] environments and ensure that they do not spawn and procreate and become an invasive species, that takes over that new environment. So in France, for instance, they, I think it's 99 percent of the oysters farmed in France are triploids of the Japanese Pacific variety.

Kevin: There's no Biosecurity risk for the Belon's or the other local French style oysters, but they're still growing.

Dan: That's it.

Kevin: Gigases or pacifics.

Dan: And so one of the things found through my research was In the Chesapeake Bay, for instance, they wanted to introduce, a Chinese oyster to start growing that on the east coast of America. So they introduced these Chinese oysters to the Chesapeake Bay. They're all triploid, so they don't spawn and destroy the native populations in order to have a consistent natural, North American species that they can compare growth to, they create the [00:20:00] triploid, Atlantic oyster, right? So, so all of a sudden you've got multiple species of oysters being developed that are all triploid capable now.

The growers in the Chesapeake at the time were growing these triploid, Crassostrea oysters and they see better growth resorts and they don't water belly and they don't spawn and the market at the time appreciated those facts and so a lot of growers continue to grow triploid oysters, based off of kind of, those old markets.

At Cottage City we grow diploids. We love the idea of our product procreating and making baby oysters, everywhere. We don't tend to have people ever complain about Oh, it spawned. I'm not interested in eating it. They tend to just eat more oysters,which is fine too.

I think you could argue that maybe the flavor does change a little bit. after an oyster spawns, there's a good week period there or two week period where it's considered like a water [00:21:00] belly and it hasn't regained its fat content or nutrition.

But what do you, I mean, do you have a preference? Do you even know if it's a triploid or a diploid when you're eating it or.

Kevin: Generally speaking, I would say that I do not know. However, I find that if I'm eating oysters in the summer, which incidentally is one of the great tragedies about oysters, because it's the summertime when everybody's at the beach and that's when they want to eat oysters. And theoretically it's the worst time to eat oysters. So when I get an oyster in the hot summer and it's a plump. Beautiful oyster. My assumption is that it's a triploid because it hasn't spawned and that's why it's still plump and full figured as they say. And if I get one that's kind of a little bit baggy and flaccid and whatever the, however you would describe it, then to me, that's a diploid that has spawned.

But I have no hesitation eating any of those [00:22:00] and they taste great and I don't even have any hesitation eating what they call the creamy oyster, which is basically a diploid before it has actually spawned. And when I've shucked a bunch of those and served them to friends, some people say, Oh yeah, this one's like really like kind of creamy.

What is that? And it's I'll tell you when you're done.

Dan: Exactly though. I'm in your, I'm in your same camp. Approach it the exact same way. I would say what I've noticed, you might get your Charleston oysters that are spawning in an early July or a late July and by August, they've already replumped up because that's what makes it kind of special is it'll spawn and then it immediately knows winter is coming and it needs to fatten up quick if it wants to survive and hibernate, It would be a cool study to see if Northern oysters recuperate faster after spawning compared to the Gulf of Mexico one that [00:23:00] spawns and has no urgency to fatten up for a winter.

Kevin: Yeah, because if you're in the cooler water climate As soon as that oyster spawns, it's got to start eating like a pig, to get fat and ready to make it through the cold winter and south where it's warm all the time. They don't care.

Dan: Stay fat all year round. Yeah, exactly. But then you think you're like, well, what's the trade off and it's that potentially the million oysters on my farm. Could have made hundreds of millions of baby oysters that go out in the wild and provide food and a reef system and better water quality and sequester carbon and all those things. So environmentally, I think, I'll do my part and eat the spawned out oyster, so that it can make, it's the least I can do so that it can, procreate because

Kevin: I agree with that. I think philosophically. And fundamentally, and not thinking about [00:24:00] profitability from a particular farm, I think that is the better choice if one can do it. Because, as you point out so clearly throughout your book, is that oysters aren't just a delicious food. They give back so much to the environment in terms of sequestering carbon and cleaning the water and creating habitat.

There's so much in your book that I found so fascinating. And you point out that there's over 200 species of oysters known currently in the world, but that only about 13 of them are commercially farmed or produced for human consumption.

I mean, I know there's the pearl oysters and that sort of thing, but I mean, 200 is a hell of a lot of different species of oysters. And, I thought that was fascinating that only 13 are commercially farmed. How did you learn about all of that? Cause you, you actually break down in the book, each of those 13 oysters and,

Dan: [00:25:00] Maybe I'll make it a life goal to eat every one of them

There's probably a lot more. Like we have grapes on Martha's Vineyard. It's named the Vineyard. But these are really shitty grapes that nobody ever eats except for birds. No human eats these grapes, right? But they do exist.

Kevin: Right.

Dan: So there's, yeah, there's a ton of oysters. There's been even more that have gone extinct, right, which is even crazier like the oysters, you know The Mediterranean oysters of the Greeks and the Egyptians like they ate those all gone. They don't exist anymore Luckily, Rowan Jacobsen, Geography of Oysters, he documented a lot of those different species.

I was, it was interesting to find out just through my research of how many that China actually has of its own. It has the Hong Kong oyster, it has all these little specific ones that I guess are genetically different from each other. Just small little tweaks in their genetics, so it makes them a completely different species.

Kevin: Yeah, because it's different than having [00:26:00] all, for example, in the East Coast, all Eastern oysters that may be different based upon the merroir and where they're grown and all of that sort of thing. We're actually talking different animals, different species. 

Dan: And a lady, I did a book talk last night and a lady brought it up and she said, well, like if Seattle, for instance, is one of the only places on planet earth that's growing. Five of these different species on the exact same farm, like Taylor shellfish has five of these things on one body of water. So I went over there and ate a bunch. And the study I was trying to do is as I was gluttoning out on every oyster possible, if they all have the exact same merroir influence, then do they have different tastes? And if they do, then that means They actually metabolize their food within their bodies in a different way to give them different flavors.

Kevin: Well, speaking of the whole different taste of the oyster, you made a [00:27:00] comment in the book, which is such an obvious thing, but I had never thought about it. And it really struck me. And that is that oysters are herbivores and of course they are. But when I think of herbivores, I'm thinking cows and horses and deer and, whatever.

Kevin: I'd never thought of an oyster in that way. But you go into talking about the different kinds of phytoplankton and diatoms,

Dan: So if they're gearing up to spawn. They'll only eat a specific type of algae, versus if they're plumping up for winter, they'll eat a, different kind of algae.

So, so they can selectively choose what they want to eat, Or like you said, if it's, if there's zooplankton, which is little baby animals. They'll spit that out.

They don't want anything to do that. And in fact, they don't even spit it out. They encapsulate it in a mucus made up of proteins and enzymes [00:28:00] that end up fertilizing the world around them. So they create like a little nugget of fertilizer, even for their trash is like good.

And diatoms, I talked about in the book, like when Victorian scientists discovered diatoms. They would have like diatom parties and they would arrange these diatoms on microscope slides, and then they'd have these parties and sit around and drink and look at the creation I made with these diatoms on my, these slides.

On my slide. Right. So it was this great fascination of, the natural world and, diatoms are actually these little, plants that make, they surround their bodies with a piece of glass. It's actually like a glass structure. So if you Google diatoms on the internet, like you get all these beautiful glass shapes, I mean, it's gorgeous.

Kevin: Also when you were talking in your book about the diatoms and phytoplanktons, one of the things I didn't realize was that they [00:29:00] create more than what I think you said, 50 to 80 percent of the oxygen that humans,

Dan: Every three breaths that we take, two of those breaths was oxygen from the ocean, which is awesome.

And in fact.that's what terraformed this entire planet in the very beginning, right? You go all the way back, that's where I, you start geeking out and go way back. 4.6 billion years ago, the Earth's created, and then the first primordial ooze to form is cyanobacteria, which is an algae. And it's sitting there photosynthesizing and creating oxygen into the environment that allows the rest of everything else to come around, right?

Kevin: It's amazing. it just, it's all so connected and your book really showed this in a very clear way, because you also talk about ocean acidification and, too many nutrients in the water that causes algae blooms, which kill things and the importance of the balance and the fact that the oyster plays [00:30:00] such a big role in managing ocean acidification.

Dan: Yeah, and a lot of that is that, we've harvested 99 percent of not just the oysters but the filter feeding animals of the world, right? Menhaden, Pohys, scallops, mussels, oysters. We've taken out the animals that keep that balance in check and then we fertilize our lawns, which run off into the oceans and create an excess of nutrients so algae can bloom and,get out of control. And so it's the downward spiral effect of, of what happens and then, the ocean is absorbing the vast amount of heat and carbon that we're dumping into the atmosphere.

It's going straight into the ocean and it's beginning to change the ocean chemistry, the pH balance and the acidity of the ocean. But I also, the glass is half full. Humans have become, in the case of [00:31:00] oysters, better than Mother Nature at procreating this species. out of the hundreds of millions of babies that are cast out by an adult oyster, only 1 percent of those come to life. To survive, right? It's a very small percentage where the human takes the oyster and puts it in the hatchery and we get all 100, 000 of them to survive and make it to, to maturity. So, it's a case of maybe what has to happen in response to acidic oceans is that we just have to keep that larvae in our hatcheries for a little bit longer until it's strong enough to then put out into the environment.So, oyster farming's got a bright future.

Kevin: I'm so glad you jumped into the future of oysters because you can't talk about the future. Unless you talk about two things first, and that is climate change, and what you call the failing industrial agricultural complex.

Dan: Yeah, [00:32:00] this is actually what I'm writing about now. Because it is the number one question we're asked on our tours is how is climate change going to affect, your oysters? And I've always kind of had a bullshit answer to that.

question, and it's always been, Oh, oysters have been around forever, and they'll just adapt, so that's what I'm nerding out on now at night, right, is scientific journals of what is going to happen to our food supply as the planet changes.

So as the planet warms, right, what happens to corn? What happens to oysters? What I like to do is always look at the past, right?

So you can go back 16 million years ago when the planet was eight degrees warmer and look at what was existing back then and what was growing back then and what was surviving back then. And then you can say, well, are any of those species alive today? Yeah. A lot of them.

Well, then those are the ones we should be potentially farming and making, the the pillar of our food, industrial complex because it is going to fail and we are seeing it fail.

Kevin: I haven't heard anybody say it quite like that. And [00:33:00] it makes great sense. And that is, look at the animals and plants that did survive and oysters are one of the best examples, and focus on those as the pillars of your future agricultural complex.

Dan: Man, there's some really smart people that have already proposed to do this. exact concept of which epoch do we go back to and look at and which one could serve as a model, for our future that we're heading toward.

Kevin: It sounds like you're involved or a member of a lot of different organizations focusing on food production in a climate changing world. 

Dan: Yeah, I serve on a bunch of aquaculture, organizations and I'm the president of my farm bureau chapter. So I get to kind of talk to the land farmers too and get their perspectives on it. The big thoughts on everybody's minds right now is fresh water and stopping development. Fresh water is becoming a much more valuable resource. and agriculture [00:34:00] uses, The vast majority of our fresh water. It's 80 percent of all fresh water usage goes straight to putting it on corn and crops and, or giving it to cows and, so we dedicate a lot of our fresh water to our food system, which directly competes with our own survival interests, right?

And so does land. humans need land to live and build houses on and build roads on and our food system also needs this land. So half of the developed world right now has been developed just for our food. And then the other half of our land is developed for us to, to use and live on. So that's something that needs to be addressed, for sure. 

Kevin: How many iterations did you have to go through on your manuscript before you called it finished?

Dan: Oh man, as I write I'll write and write, and then I get so lost in kind of what I'm writing that I go back and read what it has been written, and I'm just deleting, and deleting and then I come back and I'm like, honest with myself, [00:35:00] so, it's not necessarily like a finished draft and then you turn it in and then. It's kind of always going back through and deleting it and fine tuning it and then when it is done

Dan: you got to sit on it for a couple weeks and Do something completely different and that way you come back to it kind of new again and then I go through with a more critical pan and delete things and then… That's how I worked doing TV production cause you do the same thing when you're editing a show or a video or whatever it is, where you know, I mean, you know, with the podcast, you're going to go in and delete this part and this part.

And, Right. And then the scary part is that it can, it's knowing, well, when is it actually done? I think that's the hardest part, because then you can keep editing it forever and saying that it's never perfect. Or, yeah, how do you know when it's done?

With the publishers, like I finally picked my publisher and then they gave me a deadline. It's okay, you need to submit this manuscript by this date. And [00:36:00] it was only like another month or so to work on it. And then that gives your brain. the ability to actually kind of compartmentalize of well what can I do in that set amount of time and just kind of finish it. I had a great experience. Agate Publishing, I they got the manuscript and the editor comes back, she says, well, can you just write something that like, tells us the difference between a clam, an oyster, a scallop, because I don't know. it was kind of this epiphany of oh, right. Like people you know in downtown Chicago probably don't know the difference between a clam and a scallop and an oyster. So that actually became, the very first part of the book was. These are the differences of these different species, which I take for granted knowing that, I guess, 

Kevin: But that's actually a really helpful question is because who, most people, like you say, didn't downtown Chicago, they don't have a clue. Are you doing, any kind of book tour on your book?

Dan: Uh, I mean, no, not really. I talk at a lot of libraries. Anywhere I try to go, I try [00:37:00] to go to the library and give a talk, if possible. I have found that Bookstores only want the newest book that's coming out right? And so even though mine is only six months old, it's old news already. But libraries are very accommodating and

People should utilize libraries more. Before I had my wife, I would try to meet my, a girlfriend or a wife at a library, because she's going to at least be smart. It's a good place for single people to pick up other people.

Kevin: Do people give you a hard time if you show up to talk about your book? And it's yeah, but where are the oysters? When are you going to shuck for us? 

Dan: I'll get invited to a New Year's party and then when I tell them I don't have oysters, the invite is dropped immediately.

Kevin: I picture you as being that guy – it's the same guy who I've always dreamed of being who, when you get invited to the dinner party, you don't bring the famous bottle of wine. you bring a mess of oysters.

Dan: And I make sure they're really dirty. Like I make sure there's crabs and seaweed still, like I haven't power washed them. Like I want the sand in the [00:38:00] sink and the smell to last. 

Kevin: You want people to feel like you just, you drove the car through your muddy, oyster farm. And you want them to be a little scared.

Dan: Intimidated. Intimidated. God, this guy, look at this guy. And he's not even wearing a glove. This man is crazy.

Kevin: What's next for you?

Dan: I, man, I. I will always farm oysters. I love that. I was out there this morning in 20 degree weather. I love it. I like being miserable sometimes. Makes me feel better when I'm like reading a scientific journal at night, that I went out and at least I was a man for a couple hours earlier in the day. 

Kevin: Well, and you're putting your money where your mouth is. 

Dan: Well, and that's been interesting too is at, these library talks, a lot of people come up and they go, Oh, What's great about this is you're not just some dude, that wrote the, like you actually farm oyster, like you're actually on the water getting dirty and learning this shit.

Kevin: Right.

Dan: And I guess that's given me some authenticity, but, That's also how you [00:39:00] probably, I would imagine that's how I will be able to stay on the cutting edge of the science that's happening, or the problems that are being faced, right, is by actually being involved in it. So I always want to have my foot in the water there, and then, I love writing, man. What I would like to do is tell more people's stories, right? So it's, and that's what you're doing. I mean, that's why this is great, man. That's what you're doing. Everybody in this industry has some crazy story. Like I have not yet met like the boring dude that was just like born into oyster farming. 

Kevin: And that's, yeah, I threw some oysters in the water and then I made a million dollars. It just happened. 

Dan: If people are farming, they've got crazy stories. That's kinda, it's one of those professions. But yeah, I just, I want to tell aquaculture stories. Well, you tell the stories well, and, as you can tell, I speak like an idiot, so I write the same way. I got a great brain, but man, when it comes out, it's pretty dumbed down. So I think my writing's the same [00:40:00] way, right? I'm able to take some of these complex issues And just make it real dumb so that even an idiot like me, gets to understand it,

Kevin: Well Dan, congratulations on it and all you're doing. 

Dan: I can't wait to get you on the farm and show them all to you out here. So that'll be fun.

Kevin: I would love to get out there and see firsthand what deep ocean farming is all about.

Dan: Cool man. Let's do it.

Kevin: Well, that's it for this episode of OYSTER-ology. Thanks to my guest, Dan Martino. Links can be found in our show notes, including a link to The Oyster Book. If you like what I'm doing on ology, please rate and review it on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Every positive review helps new listeners find the show. Thanks for listening, and join me again next time when we pry open the shell of another interesting oyster topic.