Episode 29: Shen Dao on Law

Early in Chinese history, a number of political thinkers developed sophisticated arguments for relying on consistent application of laws rather than the personal discretion of political authorities to govern the state. In this episode, we explore the arguments of one of the early pioneers of this way of thinking, Shen Dao  慎到  (c. 350-275 BCE). We are joined by a leading expert on Shen Dao and Chinese Legalism, Eirik Lang Harris.

Want to skip to the episode's primary philosophical issue? Go to

• 7:39: Preface on Chinese Legalism, or
• 15:13: Part II: Shen Dao on Law

Many thanks to The Hong Kong Ethics Lab for sponsoring this podcast series.

Want to continue the discussion? Need links to some of the sources mentioned? Go to the support page for this episode on Warp, Weft, and Way.

We thank Lena Li (LI La 李拉) for her expert editing and sound engineering. We also thank the blog Warp, Weft & Way for hosting the discussion for this episode.

Co-hosts:
Richard Kim's website
Justin Tiwald's website

Chapters

• 0:00 Part I -- Introduction
• 7:39 • Preface to today's topic: Chinese Legalism
• 15:13 Part II -- Shen Dao on Law
• 15:37 • Introducing our guest: Eirik Lang Harris
• 17:38 • Overview of Shen Dao's views on law
• 21:26 • First passage: the value of law itself
• 25:18 • Shen Dao vs. Confucians on the pros and cons of "strict rule-following"
• 28:57 • Law as a solution to problems of gratitude and resentment
• 37:23 • Are laws invariably too "open textured" to be applied mechanically?
• 45:05 • Is Shen Dao recommending the rule of law (not just rule by law)?
• 52:22 • Second passage: laws come from human beings (not from Heaven)
• 1:07:00 • Third passage: against private morality
• 1:19:28 • The analogy between laws and forces of nature
• 1:21:34 • a tension in Shen Dao's thought regarding the changeability of laws
• 1:30:05 • A Confucian worry: does Shen Dao's state make room for meaningful human relationships?
• 1:33:47 • Closing thoughts