Design Principles Pod
Architecture. A hot topic, a buzz word, a realm for the rich and famous, or the thing that your step uncle does? We will be unpacking the good, the bad and the downright reality of the architectural and construction industry. With insights from industry professionals and personal anecdotes from our three hosts Ben, Gerard and Sam, you will be given a look behind the closed pages of those fancy looking moleskins. Tune in and redline out.
Design Principles Pod
Beyond Design: Architecture, Innovation and Business with Pamela Bell
Pamela Bell, a trailblazer in New Zealand's architecture and construction scene, shares her inspiring journey from studying architecture to embracing prefabrication and entrepreneurial ventures. Pamela's story is not just about personal triumphs but also about innovating at the crossroads of design and business. Her narrative is a testament to the transformative power of networking and building meaningful connections, which she believes are crucial for success. Pamela's experiences, including founding Prefab NZ and creating influential exhibitions, illustrate the importance of accessible architecture and her passion for pioneering change.
As Wellington faces political and economic challenges, particularly in the construction sector, there's a unique opportunity to rethink and enhance business processes. We discuss how refining brand propositions and supporting local enterprises can drive innovation during these trying times. By highlighting the significant role of industry associations and social enterprises, the episode underscores the necessity of embracing change and maintaining strong networks. Pamela and other industry experts share insights on how staying connected and being proactive can help navigate these challenges and foster new building methodologies.
The evolving role of architects takes center stage as we explore strategic thinking and entrepreneurial approaches in design. This episode highlights the critical gap in architecture education regarding business skills and introduces design thinking as a versatile tool. Personal anecdotes emphasize the value of mentorship and curiosity in building connections, likening mentorship to having a personal board of directors. Finally, Pamela shares her perspective on the power of informal networking, encouraging listeners to engage actively with their surroundings and learn from others to inspire personal and professional growth.
Key Links:
- https://www.pamelabell.nz/
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/pamela-bell-nz/?originalSubdomain=nz
Show Chapters:
- 0:09 - Architectural Innovation and Inspiration
- 10:39 - Embracing Change and Innovation
- 18:09 - Unlocking Architecture's Strategic Thinking
- 21:51 - Entrepreneurial Approaches in Design Thinking
- 26:18 - Building Networks and Seeking Mentorship
- 29:55 - Exploring Architectural Business Models
- 44:58 - Coffee and Networking in Architecture
Follow us on @designpriciplespod on Instagram.
If you wish to contact us hit our DMs or email us on info@designprinciplespod.com
Welcome back to the Design Principles podcast. Today on the show we have a very inspirational guest, someone who's made a significant impact in the architecture and construction community in New Zealand and continues to do so Pamela Bowell. This is a high-level conversation with Pam where we talk about a range of things such as networking, design thinking, alternative business models and the importance of fostering strong relationships. One of my favorite concepts of Pam's is not to be afraid to reach out and connect with more like-minded people and always finish the conversation with who are three more people I can have coffees with. Hope you enjoy the pod.
Speaker 3:You've got a next level mic man. You sound unbelievable.
Speaker 2:It's because I'm holding it.
Speaker 3:That's a podcast voice, if ever I heard one.
Speaker 2:Sign me up. Yeah, you do sound good actually.
Speaker 3:We might just ask you questions, alright.
Speaker 1:We've got 45 minutes, so should we crack into it? Yeah, I guess it's probably worth starting with a. I know you've probably done this a million times, pam, but maybe like a bit of a background, just for the to. To summarize, I know you've gone from the amazing accomplishment to amazing accomplishment, so so worth a summary.
Speaker 3:Yeah, cool Kia ora e te whānau Ko Pamela Bell toka ingoa. I'm Pamela Bell and I have the benefit of hindsight because I'm over 50. Now I can look back and actually see a theme which I didn't see when I was obviously just a sprog. So from studying architecture I took a break and was curious about sport, because I've never been any good at it, but I'd grown up in the mountains with my family, my whānau. We loved the snow.
Speaker 3:I still love the snow, and I followed that path through snowboarding, which was just emerging and it was really entrepreneurial. It turned into World Cup and Olympics for snowboarding, which is a nice way to put a pin in it. Then I was able to go back to architecture school. What I found really interesting at architecture school is all this narrative-driven stuff. I just thought it was bullshit. I was really interested in what's not a model or a drawing, so I did stuff like hand in clothing and jewelry and magazines and my final year project it was a catwalk with a model that fainted, which managed to help me evade a few curly questions from Peter Wood.
Speaker 3:But I was super interested. Then, after doing a little bit of architecture practice and getting sick of lining up someone's bathroom tiles in their third bathroom when I thought they only needed one bathroom to start with, I got out of practice and went back to uni and did a master's, which was a really stupid decision because it was right before it turned into a master's degree anyway. So I was probably one of the last voluntary master's people. But I was super curious about prefabrication and being way more efficient. I didn't totally get this whole custom approach that architecture has and doing stuff from scratch. That just didn't make sense. So I did a thesis on Kiwi prefabricated housing and it was all first-hand research, which was awesome because I had a small baby by then and I just needed to get out of the house every now and then. So I got to do first-hand research from Kaitaia to Wanaka and then tested that with a bit of a symposium, I guess, back at Victoria University.
Speaker 1:It was a great, great thesis, by the way. I think I read it probably a dozen times and it was a huge precedent of my thesis as well.
Speaker 3:That's awesome, ben, because I totally believe in being accessible and accessible architecture, accessible writing, architecture for the people, connecting with people, none of this black turtleneck, black rimmed glasses scenario, you know. So for me it's all about just writing in really common language. And so, because I had no idea what happens after a thesis, I did that splatter gun approach and put in, you know, for applications for grants to turn it into an exhibition, to turn it into a book. And then I didn't anticipate at the end of that symposium that people would be like, okay, let's make an industry association and why don't? Why don't you do all the hard? Mahi, fam and I was like, oh, whoa, okay, so by then I had like two children and, um, a startup, writing a book and an exhibition, and it all kind of happened at the same time.
Speaker 3:It was probably the most intense part of my life because also my husband at the time lost his father and was kind of plunged into depression. And you know we talk about work all the time, right, but work's the easy bit. All the life stuff right then was just intense. But the really good thing was we got a kiwi prefab exhibition in Tanaki, at Pukiariki, in New Plymouth, there, and there were houses outside that people could walk into around the waterfront and there was a full like history inside and all these cute little puzzles that kids could engage with. So it was that total like something for everyone. You know, people in their like buggies and all the rest just walked into with. So it was that total like something for everyone. You know, people in their like buggies and all the rest just walked into these houses and it was just super fun. It was really entrepreneurial fun time whole pre-fab and Zed stuff, just like snowboarding. You know it's all like the start of something.
Speaker 3:That's where I get my buzz is in the startup or the refresh or you know like when new things are happening at the junction between, like design and business.
Speaker 3:I know I've just given a way longer answer than you wanted, ben. Where I've landed now is um. So I drove prefab nz for about 10 years. As soon as fletcher had a factory, as soon as the government was doing stuff around policy, I was like man, my job is done. This has been fun, but I'm a you know, I'm a starter, not a process maker. So time to hand it over to someone else. And I was super curious about big stuff like government or big commercial. So I tried that whole consultant contractor thing for a bit and I got to try a little bit of stuff around Kainga Ora, around this quite interesting tech platform out of Australia which was about certifying builders so clients know if they've got a four star or five star or god help, worse builder that they're buying off the plans.
Speaker 3:Yeah, icert independent construction industry rating tools based on like over 200 data points Super interesting. But you know that was through COVID. I was lucky I was already Zooming and working from home. So I got through COVID and then I was like, hmm, people you know, quite keen to have a team again. So I saw the Institute of Building and I don't know what you guys know about the Institute of Building, but I was like that's a middle-aged white boys club.
Speaker 4:Let's get in there and shake some stuff up. It doesn't surprise me.
Speaker 3:And they were like, oh yeah, we want to do this. And I was like, are you sure, are you sure you really want to do this? And I was like, are you sure, are you sure you really want to do this? Because once I'm in here, you know we're going to need to put in some innovation and inclusion and encourage the young people to get involved. But yep, so I've been there two years and, yeah, I was shaking up some shizzle. It's good fun, and I do a governance stuff on the side, um, as well, because I'm curious about how boards work and how strategy works and I love spotting the gaps and problem solving. So that's kind of my passion stuff. Social housing, innovation and construction, um, so stuff like abodo wood, which is, you know, thermally modified timber or cooked wood yeah um, with no nasties.
Speaker 3:Uh, stuff like Urban Plus, which is a social housing developer which is owned by Hutt City. Yeah, so a few things like that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's my little mix.
Speaker 3:I like having a bit of a mix going on.
Speaker 1:Spotting the gap, the opportunity, and then adding or innovation, is like. I mean, this industry has had very little of that over the years and now it's like I don't know. I think it's like it's so awesome and I think a lot of people need to push that even further if if at all possible I think, I think we we probably don't shine the light on innovation enough.
Speaker 3:Ben, I reckon if you walk onto any site, there'll be a bunch of folks doing stuff differently, but we're not measuring it, we're not capturing it. You know, we have this like shitty credential that we have one of the worst, lowest productivity industries, but I have heard a lot of people talk about how we maybe don't capture that stuff. Like I've just come right now from the opening of, or the launch of, rooms to Rumour, which is conveniently in Tawiki o te Reo Māori, our Māori language week, and it's driven by an architecture firm, Piro Thorpe, with our Māori language commission, and it's about adding maori room names into, you know, autodesk, it's like it makes a huge sense yeah, it's just a start, right.
Speaker 4:But yeah, that's like, yeah, people are doing innovative stuff that's a small innovation that has a big impact, really, isn't it?
Speaker 3:even small stuff takes a long time, like I reckon they've been working on that for a couple of years, you know?
Speaker 4:Yeah, how this might be a bit early in the conversation and maybe this is a bit of a trigger, but how are you finding, you know, recent changes in policy and the built environment in terms of innovation? I feel like we've just taken a huge step backwards recently. What's your thought on that?
Speaker 3:that's a super broad question, sam um. Yeah, sorry, no, no, I think it's really important uh to talk about. You know we operate at so many different levels, right, you know the 10 000 foot view is the whole political ecosystem and right now, well, we're here in um Wellington and it's like super sad.
Speaker 3:I think, Patty Gower wrote an awesome article and stuff a couple of days ago about Wellington needs hugs. We so do, but we need some pretty tough love hugs too. Right, we've just got to pick ourselves up and support each other, support local business. You know, we've experienced 6,000, 7,000 redundancies in our government sector. Our construction and infrastructure sector is really having the toughest time I think any of us have lived through yeah, even worse than the gfc. You know, firms that have been around since then are laying off people when they've never had to do it before.
Speaker 3:But you know, this is where we have to jump into that kind of half glass full or making lemonades out of lemons scenario, which is this is our time to connect with each other, really make sure we know where everyone's at and we're either poised or we're collaborating already. Get our marketing super sorted, know exactly who we are, what's the niche, what do we own? You know, because the smaller that space is, then we're the expert in that niche. So it's a time to really drill down into your brand proposition, your value proposition. What do I offer clients? Stay super connected, which I said, and also a time to do that stuff that I'm not a big fan of but we have to sort out our processes, make sure we're just like super efficient. We've got all our tech sorted. You know all that stuff, that's really important.
Speaker 3:So I just think we're really good at winding up and we're really rubbish at pausing and dealing with quieter spots.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. It's sort of what we've found is it's this year well, even last year, last year, last year and this year in particular, it's been sort of an anti-productivity or an anti-production campaign realm in which we're working. But what it's provided is that it's provided us with the opportunity for innovation, because you're just given you're, you're, you're offered the chance of time and space to think a little bit differently and to and to change processes and things. And I think that's what's quite interesting, to be nice to see, and I think we're starting to see it a little bit as well. When we sort of come out the other end, yeah, that there's going to be much better policies in place, much better systems in place, much better construction methodologies in place, because we've been finally afforded a bit of time to think differently, which is quite nice.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's all in our approach. It is a gift, as you say, to be given time to really think about what you're doing and make sure you are living to the values that you're trying to deliver for your clients. It's also a time to connect, fill your brain, go to events. I have to say that stuff because that's the area I'm in as well. Like this industry association area has been pretty interesting for me to kind of get my head around when we started Prefab and said I didn't know what an industry association was. I mean, I think I've been a member of Te Kāhui Whaihanga Institute of Architects and now work with women in construction, but I'd never driven an industry association and we thought of ourselves more as a social enterprise, like just having something on our bottom line other than financial right.
Speaker 3:We were trying to make change and get people opening up to the idea that there might be other ways to build other than traditionally, but I think when you have a look out there as you move forward in your career, you've got kind of your skills and your quals in one hand and then you've got all your people connections in the other right. Our industry is a massive relationship driven industry. If you have a look at all your linkedin contacts or this podcast that you guys are doing, it's all about connecting to other people, getting other people connected, helping the magic happen, the ideas flow, getting that stuff through to people, getting them excited and influencing them, breaking down the barriers. So it's, you know, the people side of it's really important. Now's an awesome time to kind of fill yourself up with resources and people. You know, I know that at the Institute of Building we have a little series called Industry Insights and we ran some webinars on stuff like well, basically how to deal with interviews and cvs, because a lot of people have changed jobs, uh. But also we got a bunch of our board members in and did stuff around the state of the industry and I don't know about you, but it's so good to get together with people in the industry or adjacent industries and just kind of ask what's on top.
Speaker 3:You know, what are those three things keeping you awake adjacent industries and just kind of ask what's on top. You know what are those three things keeping you awake at night and just hear about people's approaches. That's the most useful part of any board meeting that I get involved with is just doing that round table to start with and just getting all those perspectives in the room, and it also helps people take their day hat off and get that board meeting hat on. We've got board members who have got the most incredible positive approaches. They spend all day making basically business development calls, coffees, lunches, you name it just basically connecting with people. And then they're doing the mahi, the emails at night, like you can't sustain that for a long time, but that is a really interesting approach when you know you can't just sit at a long time. But that is a really interesting approach when you know you can't just sit at home and complain, oh shit, my work's dried up. You know you've just got to get out there and connect with people.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's a time to be proactive, that's for sure yeah, so.
Speaker 3:so that's a different answer to your political question, because I think we're seeing some changes in work and pipeline procurement which is impacting our industry. The green shoots, I guess, would be health and defence, those areas. Yep, because I'm a Wellingtonian, I'm really hoping there's some pipes in there. I would like my water to flow. Not onto the road. We want it to flow, not onto the road, not onto the road through the tap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so, pam, you teach a course at victoria university. The design thinking are you. I don't. I'm not sure you're still doing that. You do it with people like Guy and with Jed and other awesome innovators, I guess.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love awesome humans. Yeah, so, because I love the intersection between business and design and because I went through the architecture schooling system and got a little bit miffed about day one when they said, hey, two things, folks, if you're here to make money, get up and leave now. And we're like huh what? And then the second thing they said was if anyone, any of your mates in your flats, in the hostels, are studying law, you know, stay close to them because you're going to need them later on. And we were just like holy smokes, what kind of litigious, non-paying industry are we getting into? So I think there's a little failing there.
Speaker 3:And then, of course, as you know, they throw you into the fire, don't they? You have to stand up and defend your work. I went to architecture school straight out of secondary school and I was shy, hopeless thing, and I saw people who were returned students. They were builders, they were nurses, they'd done all kinds of stuff and they just kind of knew who they were. They were able to stand behind their work and be like this is it? This is me. I support it. You know, this is my reasoning, my rationale.
Speaker 3:Don't really give up what you rats, what you're going to say and I thought, oh, that's what I want to be like, and so that helped me take a year out of architecture school that turned into seven years snowboarding when I came back, I was just like, yeah, you know you just, there's something about architecture which is so much about pulling stuff from within you. You go there thinking it's going to be like secondary school and they're going to give you layers of new stuff and you just absorb it. But it's the opposite experience to that. It's about pulling things up and out. It's a hard process to explain to anyone who hasn't been through it, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, a good way of coming out of architecture school if you can learn to trust yourself and want to be yourself, versus like copying other people's work.
Speaker 3:I think the answers mostly are within you yeah, finding your own design yeah and I think sometimes, if you just look back at all the stuff you've handed in through your five years at architecture school, you could be like oh there's the thing, wasn't aware of it at the time. But be a bit objective yeah yeah so what?
Speaker 1:what does the design thinking process look like? Yeah, cool.
Speaker 3:So the whole reason um we set up that design thinking business course was because I wanted young people to have some way to have conversations about business, because I fundamentally disagree that we deliver a five-year degree without talking about business. And I know there's a little bit of prof prac in there, but I don't think that's as useful.
Speaker 2:That is funny. I mean, that's a start. Ten minutes.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So the other thing I really believe is that architecture is an awesome degree in thinking and strategic approach and you can take that into anything you do. So that's the second thing. The third thing is that in a downturn, folks come out of architecture school graduates and do whatever the cool creative thing is that's happening at that time. So at at one point that was, you know, the whole Lord of the Rings set. I mean, we had flatmates that were creating sets because they were architecture jobs. At one point, believe it or not, it was people developing websites, you know. So way back in the day.
Speaker 3:And then more recently, there's this huge rise in something called design thinking, which is where the corporate world has captured the way architects think and basically trademarked it. You know the design sprint, etc. Etc. So there is no reason why architecture graduates can't go into local government, central government, commercial businesses and teach design thinking. And I actually think some of the consultancies you know the beakers and acoms and oricons and thds and wsps of this world they are starting to pick up on this around the front end of a project because of course, the client walks in the door and goes, oh, I want a widget, I want this kind of building. But they've just walked in with an answer, right. The trick is obviously to get them into the question asking what's the problem? To solve phase which is that design thinking approach.
Speaker 3:right? Oh, you don't actually need a building, you actually just need to rejig this. Do some work from home, blah, blah, blah. I mean, obviously, the tension for architects and consultants is that you want to sell your services, but in the efforts of sustainability and in seeing what's happening offshore, like places like Norway, where they've got much more of a reuse mandate- we're going to have to start getting better at solving people's problems, not always with an architectural solution.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely problems, not always with an architectural solution. Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah, so it's about identifying or figuring out what the actual problem is and understanding it a little bit more in depth than what you'd kind of normally do and then coming up with solutions. Yeah, for the problem, and more of like an agile approach is the whole idea to to, to figure it out a little bit faster, so you get like that, more of like a feedback loop and the information gets fed back into the system a little bit better, as opposed to kind of just disappearing or like what's the, where's the?
Speaker 1:value look.
Speaker 3:There's lots of ways to look at what design thinking is and as an approach. Um, the design sprint is obviously a way to get clients and a range of stakeholders involved in the design process and you take them through like a hot box for a week, I think what's the design? Really good questions around design thinking.
Speaker 3:You know, sorry, I like the problem to solve or what has to be true, like there's just some really good question starters and obviously there's a lot of post-its but um you know, it's just a way to get people really on board the design journey and I think, uh, that's an important thing to do in architecture is to break down the barriers so that it's not the black teal neck and glasses, it's not a them and us, it's not different language, it's everybody in the room. You know early engagement, all that stuff. But the thing with that design thinking business course is I think we set it up before COVID and set it up as a six-week online, lots of pre-recorded webinars, and we did really fun assessments, like got people to do a linkedin profile for themselves in 20 years time. We showed them stories of some other grads who had gone on to like design basketball kicks for nike gone on to do massive urban design projects like painting out streets and bicycle lanes all around the world from new york.
Speaker 3:So lots of these great stories so that folks can imagine themselves doing something other than just working for someone else in a studio. And then, of course, examples like makers first light, basically like what you guys did in terms of just go out and buy a c machine and get going, find some friends get started.
Speaker 1:you know, that's an option too Be entrepreneurial about it, which is what all three of you are doing yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that whole entrepreneurial thing is a huge thing for me anyway, I know you did like an mba with with seth godin, who's a absolute master. One thing that I found, especially through the makers era, was what I, what we really needed, or what I personally really needed, was like some sort of uh like mentor to kind of speed you through especially the business realm, because there's there's like there's really no one out there to lead you or to teach you those the ins and outs of what business actually looks like. And it really did take us five years to even understand the basics of business and, similar to you, I went and did an MBA at Vic there and then I was like, oh my God, like it's just like what you, you know, what you actually need to know, or what everyone should know, is just missing completely from any of those industries. So it's so good to see some sort of design thinking, processes and any kind of innovation in that realm is is essential in my opinion congrats.
Speaker 3:I didn't know you'd done your mba. That's awesome. Mum was just a baby alt mba and that's what inspired me to design that design thinking business one. Because that old mba was delivered all internationally like over zoom and slack and so we used all the same tools when we did the design thinking business space. But you're absolutely right. Business is one of those funky things where I think you probably learn more from doing it so it's good to start with really low risk option.
Speaker 3:You know, just, it's like any prototype, right, and that's a design thinking thing too right Make a messy start, prototype, learn, reiterate, yeah, so that's a design thinking approach. So, yeah, applying that to your own business is a lot, makes a lot of sense. But also it's like what we started out, talking about people and connections. Alongside your skills and quills, you've got to reach out and just have a coffee and ask for three more ideas of who to have coffee with and just have this massive network of right. I've got a team problem. I know who to talk to about that. Right. I've got a TST problem. I know who to talk to about that, and people are always happy to be asked.
Speaker 3:If you validate and help someone feel helpful, you're doing them a service. So it's quite good to turn that around in your head. And especially for young women, it's really hard to ask for help and to perceive that you might be inconveniencing someone. But actually it's a gift to ask someone to help you because then they feel useful and I think it's great to take that approach in through any kind of mentor mentee type relationship. I think it's great to take that approach in through any kind of mentor-mentee type relationship. It's just like having your own board of directors, right?
Speaker 3:Just have a handful of people that you know you can trust and you can reach out for questions. Mentors love it if you come with a really specific question. Come armed with curiosity. That's a gift to them, make their job easy.
Speaker 4:I find it interesting because going through this process you know we're a relatively new business like three and a half years in play and when we started out I think it was a little bit of, maybe, nervousness, but then also like a little bit of pride. You didn't want to like reach out too much because you didn't want to be seen to be not knowing what you're doing or failing or anything like that. But then ultimately, once you sort of swallow that pride and then just ask the questions, people were so forthcoming and so helpful and it was not like, oh, you don't know what you're doing, no, we're not going to help you, you need to like make your own mistakes. They're like, yeah, we've been through that. What's the point of like holding all this knowledge and not sharing it?
Speaker 4:and I was really surprised at how giving the industry was particularly when we yeah, particularly when we come from an industry which is inherently quite competitive, I find, from a design perspective. But you know, at the end of the day, people didn't never looked at it like that. But I think that was maybe my own potential insecurities in starting the business and, you know, being a smaller fish in a huge pond yeah you know I didn't want to ask the questions, but as soon as you got over that, you know, sam, there is so much in what you're saying.
Speaker 3:But first of all, good on you for being objective and knowing that you felt really funky going into those conversations. There's nothing wrong with being authentic and going into the room being like, hey, I've just realized I haven't got all the answers. Can someone help me here? I've got some things I'm curious about, some things I'm struggling with and you know, if you lay that on the table, someone else will open up and be like oh yeah, I'm struggling with this too. You need to take that when you're a young parent and I don't know if any of you guys are, but that is exactly the attitude you take into all those parent meetups. It's like I'm either going in to help someone or I'm going in with a question that I just cannot solve right now. And of course, as you know, with parenting you've got to have 10 ways to solve one question, because one thing works once and then not the other nine times.
Speaker 3:But I think what you're talking about is there is a mentoring structure inside architecture, which construction actually looks at architecture and goes, oh, I wish we could be like that, because architecture's got small practice groups so you can make the most of that in terms of being competitive.
Speaker 3:You've just got to own your, your niche. So then you know that no one's competing with you, right, it's your niche, you I know. But builders and ben you'll know this it's a different scenario. The builders are like we can't get together because that's seen as um collusion. You know we can't get together and talk about stuff. They have got way more of a problem in this space about how do I talk about business, and so there is some work happening. Right now, the building construction training fund, the bctf, is starting a wee project around how to get business, hopefully as a micro credential so that you can have it in your pocket on your phone, but into a bunch of yeah, trades and stuff, because it is a real issue. Everyone just jumps out and buys a brand new ute starts a business and doesn't think oh what actually do I need tonight.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's tough, there's some tough leading curves out there. I found, with my scenario, the added complication of furniture and objects and such, which I've found is like I don't know. Looking back to when I was just doing architecture, it was, it was so easy and I've found it kind of near on impossible to find somebody who does a similar business model well, that's really interesting, gerard, because I wonder if you need so similar or different like different you could talk to Formway, who are obviously a furniture success story in New Zealand.
Speaker 3:That's a scale story, isn't it? And I'm super happy to connect you with folks if you want. And you can talk with anyone who's in other industries, because it's that adjacency that's so interesting. I know at Prefab and Zed we used to reach out to look at adjacent industries, like what is the composites industry doing, like in yachting around, making super yachts and stuff, and what's the film industry doing? What's the fire engine industry doing? Because they were using modularization. So you can look for adjacencies as well, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the biggest adjacency when I talk about a bodo which is um basically up, um upskilling up valuing pine. I talk about um icebreaker or all birds which is taking a shitty in product and then making an added value out product, right. So yeah, find your what do you like and find another business model in another industry. I mean, what other tactics do you guys use to get business advice?
Speaker 1:Podcast is what I was going to say before. But the problem with podcasts is it's a one-way street, isn't it? You never actually get any advice, you just get other people's perspectives. But it does broaden the horizon significantly. I listen to a lot of international podcasts and, yeah, I find them really interesting for sure. But nothing beats, you know, one-on-one networking, for sure. Yeah, you can choose them.
Speaker 3:Or you can go through an agency like Business Mentors New Zealand. You pay something like a $200 admin fee and then you get connected to someone. I did that for a few years. I got Chris Bishop's dad. John Bishop oh wow. He was my mentor for a few years.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's very interesting, but what were you going to say, sam?
Speaker 3:Where do you find your business now?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I was just going to say we share an office space with a builder and it's interesting, even though we are in the same industry I'd almost say we're, you know, like you said, industry adjacent Because we're doing, you know, we're in the same industry but we're doing quite different things and we are learning. You know, over the last, I guess, year that we've been sharing an office, we've learned huge amounts from each other and been able to apply them into our, you know, into our business structure. So it's again, it's even like, you know, sharing space with like-minded people. You know, I think those, those sort of work share model type office spaces are a really good hub for, for bettering your knowledge, that's for sure.
Speaker 4:And a couple of years ago we were living down in wanaka and I shared an office space with. It was a, it was a film, you know, a film studio. Uh, there was a marketing outfit in there, it was an interior designer, um, and photographers as well, and you know, we're all creative adjacent, I guess. But you know, everybody came at things from a different perspective and I think in the three months that I spent down there, I learned more about understanding what I wanted to do as a business, or who I wanted up or what I wanted the business to be than I have, and you know, in the three and a half years that I've existed.
Speaker 4:So just having that different perspective was super helpful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you've just got to find the things that you're curious about and then go have a coffee with them or move in with them or have a relationship with them in some way, which is exactly what you're doing, but it's the same way you approach anything, isn't it?
Speaker 4:If you want, to learn about it you've just got to go after it.
Speaker 3:It's not going to come to you. We're doing the same thing. I'm really interested in what is an industry association into the future like into? Because we're so connected online. What does in-person connection look like in the future, and what kind of digital tools are we going to need to help facilitate that more? So we're about to move into an office with a digital technology agency and a brand agency, because that's where I see that we're going to learn more and also they're fun people.
Speaker 3:So you've got to go find the fun people. And because you know, it's Wellington or New Zealand, Sam, I know that Ben Nancet is a great builder and his wife, Hannah Nancet, is our project's lead at the Institute of Building, and I know that's one of the reasons we're talking today exactly.
Speaker 4:Yep, yep, I wasn't gonna name drop, but there we go oh yeah, this is how you give props to your people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly yeah pam, before you touched on what are, you know, a good business model versus a bad business model, and how you you were never really interested in architecture or the the architecture realm and how they conducted business.
Speaker 3:I guess what are some examples of a good business I really steer away from that good bad paradigm okay, sorry, sorry, but yeah I did get pissed off with architecture because it was so repetitive and it wasn't, I think actually just got a massive job to teach clients and I hope that's what you guys are all doing. This is your opportunity to help bring the design language up right. Yeah, and it's not slap another coat of paint stuff that you see on tv, it's enduring, generational. Yeah, really re questioning the way we live. But, ben, I'll let you finish your question oh no, I mean, that's pretty much it.
Speaker 1:I just wanted to understand, I guess, what a more successful business model would look like, and maybe that's why you were interested in prefab in the first place. I'm not sure more successful.
Speaker 3:There's so much stuff there, right. I don't know what success means for you guys, but when I was looking at prefabrication what I wondered about, what I was super curious about with prefabrication is when it's architect-led residential. Why is it not commercially enduring?
Speaker 3:so there's something in there about architects and business design and business, absolutely yeah so that for me is the ultimate curiosity what is this interface between design and business? How can we make it cool to be commercially successful and do good work? And there are some good examples out there. Look at assembly architects in Arrowtown. There's a whole lot of examples around the country.
Speaker 3:We need to talk about that stuff more. It's okay to have a formula or a style or a brand that people come to you for. Not everything has to be designed from scratch. You have to have your own library of reworkable construction details, whatever it is that creates the efficiency in your space. You know a bunch of templates to know how to do letters and contracts and dialogue with clients. Yeah, I just think it's not to demean or take away anything from architecture, but there's a business of architecture that we don't talk about enough I 100 agree.
Speaker 1:My answer to that was to become more of the developer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's a classic architect's response is to try and control everything along the way, to design everything down to the furniture and the cutlery. Hello maybe a myriad of wives.
Speaker 1:Um yeah, that's a classic I think it's more the efficiency side that I'd target, though not so much for much the control, like how to make the process more efficient, and that's probably through control right.
Speaker 3:Yes, of course it's connecting up the whole value chain. Yeah, and you see that in the States, at the scale of Warren Buffett, you know where he's got the mortgage enterprises, everything down to the houses that come out of the factory. You know they make 20 houses a day. I've been into one of these factories, like these modular or mobile home factories, and they're fascinating. They're in your kind of Midwest. The employees are former military. I've never seen anything like it in terms of a lack of health and safety.
Speaker 3:they're climbing over each other nailing guns and guns and they're building these houses from the inside out which is fascinating to watch. Everything's kind of stapled and sellotaped together and they are paid something like 12 bucks an hour. But if they make their 20 hour houses a day in the factory then they get their kind of 25 bucks an hour. So they're highly incentivized and you can.
Speaker 3:You can buy a house for a hundred thousand dollars. So we have not got any kind of industry like that here and look up I'm not saying that on a scale of wrong to right, that there's a single right but we have to offer housing at different scales because in New Zealand at the moment our social and affordable space is really devoid of activity for all kinds of reasons.
Speaker 4:But, yeah, interesting eh yeah, we tried to sort of develop something along those, along that lines of a business, you know, off-the-shelf type offering this year and we've found it. We developed the designs and we put the packages together and we have all the information there. But I think what we've kind of maybe were a bit naive to a misunderstanding is you need to make that jump, you need to have a partner, or you need to be able to make that jump to it being a marketable product. You need to be able to put a price on it, you need to be able to like, say, to a client, it will cost x. It's a huge jump for us to make is just, you know, a one-off architectural firm and I guess, ben, that's where you're talking about bridging it and having that development arm. But again, it comes back to those relationships, as if you're not going to be the developer yourself and control the whole tree, at least have that relationship with somebody that can assist you in making that jump as well.
Speaker 3:A hundred percent Collaboration partners, your coffee network and that's where architects have fallen down historically is by trying to control everything right through to the market. You know other people might be better to bring the idea to market, so it's interesting to see who you can sidle up with around branding marketing. But you're absolutely right, clients want to have knowns and that's what we realized through the whole prefab nz. Experience is that they want a known time frame, a known cost, a known quality. So it almost doesn't matter what it is that you're describing, as long as you can provide some level of certainty, yeah, which is incredibly difficult in this market where it's more art than science.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and that certainty changes day to day. A hundred percent.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Strictly eh, but I guess there's something in there about creating repeatable systems or managing expectations, not over-promising, making sure you can over-deliver. Instead, Something about the way we talk to people in architecture I think needs to become a bit more real.
Speaker 2:The language can be a bit wild. Like you talked about at the start, communication is huge Architecturally. I like to make concepts that are decipherable to everyone, something a little bit easier to read it depends what the intention of the communication is.
Speaker 3:Are we trying to get clients closer to us as architect and design professionals, or are we trying to show them how special we are? And you know language can work in either of those ways generally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, what level of involvement do you want? Like if people can't understand you, they can't really engage.
Speaker 3:Yeah, to Sam's point too. You know every client wants to tutu with the design and they've got their own expectations that they're bringing into the room right. And even when we talk to people like Lockwood or any of the kind of original prefabricated housing providers, they would say that there are no two Lockwoods out there the same. So everybody wants to change something. So where you can get actual repetition is probably more around I don't know the shell or details and then you've got a push and pull.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's more about junctions or general floor areas, but yeah it's amazing, isn't it, people? It's not like cars, where anyone's wanting personalisation. I mean, the other way to do it, of course, is just to do that thing, like you do with toddlers, which is to give controlled choices. Yeah, yeah, that's a great idea, and you can have that in either red or green, and, yeah, you can definitely have that cookie. You could either have it tomorrow or later on.
Speaker 4:Just controlled choices. I guess clients and toddlers tantrums can be pretty similar as well, though. Yeah, yeah, I would add another group to there but I might get into trouble, so I'll just that was mine, oh awesome.
Speaker 1:Oh, thanks so much, pam. We really appreciate you coming on and sharing your vast wisdom. That's so cool.
Speaker 3:It's just my own personal perspective. There's no wisdom. Don't make it sound so serious.
Speaker 1:It sounds wise to me anyway.
Speaker 3:Look, I just encourage everyone to go out and have lots of coffee or whatever it is you like to drink. And always ask that last question who are three more people I can have some more coffee with.
Speaker 1:Especially in the environment, right now. Now, yeah, just get out there and get amongst it. Thanks, guys, awesome, thank you.
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