Design Principles Pod

AI Meets Architecture: The Zuru Revolution

• Sam Brown, Ben Sutherland and Gerard Dombroski • Season 2 • Episode 2

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A revolution is brewing in the housing industry, and it's coming from an unexpected source – Zuru, the New Zealand toy company that's now setting its sights on disrupting how we build homes. Their ambitious AI platform called "Dreamcatcher" promises to deliver fully customizable houses for as little as $500 per square meter, a fraction of current construction costs.

What makes this potential game-changer so fascinating is the comprehensive approach Zuru is taking. While most prefabrication systems still rely on standard designs and external supply chains, Zuru plans to manufacture every component in-house. From structural elements to finishes and fixtures, their vertically integrated model aims to eliminate the inefficiencies and markups that plague traditional construction.

The Dreamcatcher platform itself represents a significant departure from conventional architectural software. Built on technology similar to game engines rather than clunky CAD programs, it allows designers to experiment freely while the AI handles technical aspects like structural requirements and building code compliance. The system provides real-time cost calculations, making the often opaque world of construction pricing transparent and accessible.

This approach raises provocative questions about the future of architectural practice and the building industry. Will this democratize good design, making quality architecture available to average homebuyers? How will traditional builders and suppliers respond to this potential disruption? Could this be the "Tesla moment" for housing that finally forces the industry to embrace innovation?

While Zuru's system is still in the prototype stage, with actual on-site implementation yet to be proven, the potential implications for addressing housing affordability are too significant to ignore. As construction costs continue to rise globally, technologies that fundamentally rethink how we design and build might be exactly what we need to solve one of society's most persistent challenges.

Curious about how AI and mass customization might transform your future home? Listen to our full discussion about this fascinating intersection of technology, design, and manufacturing that could change how we think about housing forever.


https://zuru.tech/


0:48 - Parrot Dog Partnership Announcement

1:12 - Introduction to Zuru's Housing Revolution

5:29 - Dreamcatcher: AI-Driven Design

9:44 - Mass Customization vs Traditional Architecture

19:47 - Cost Implications and Affordable Housing

31:12 - Industry Disruption and Future Challenges

43:57 - Automation and the Future of Building


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Sam Brown:

Hello DPP listeners. We are only one episode into the 2025 season, but we have some bloody exciting news to share with you guys. Great design and great beer have something in common keeping things simple and approachable. That's why this year, design Principles is going to be brought to you by Parrot Dog Brewery. Born in 2011 out of a love for good beer, by three guys called Matt Kinda, similar to the DPP, but we were born in 2024 by three guys not called Matt From their brewery in Lyle Bay, wellington. Parrot Dog crafts award-winning brews that are as easy to enjoy as they are to love, brewed, packaged and distributed under one roof. Every drop reflects their commitment to quality and simplicity. Just like Parrot Dog makes craft beer more approachable, we're here to simplify the world of design, bringing fresh ideas and exciting conversations to everyone. We're beyond stoked to have the local support from the place where the idea for the pod was conceived. So next time you're after a beer, keep it simple. Keep a parrot dog Nice.

Ben Sutherland:

Welcome back to the Design Principles podcast. Sam's got a beer in his hands, so buckle up, because this episode is going to be a ripper. Uh, so what are we talking about today? Automation, mass customization. Yeah, I was listening to a this other podcast one of my usuals, I can't remember which one one of them and it had the Zuru guy on there. So Zuru is a New Zealand-owned company, or the three founders, the Mulberries up here in Auckland, are from New Zealand, but I believe they basically went to China and started manufacturing kids' toys and some of their main hits were like the uh, what are they?

Sam Brown:

the blow up the multi water balloon the multi water balloon.

Ben Sutherland:

Yeah, that was apparently.

Sam Brown:

That was a ripper one, together ones as well I think so yeah, yeah well the ones we can fill up like a hundred at once, and then they just like pinch together and had lots of fun with those with the nephews over summer.

Ben Sutherland:

Yeah, exactly. I guess, though they learned how to manufacture, so now they're getting into house manufacturing. Well, they probably have been for quite some time, but now their tests are almost complete, so it's looking like they're going to start to open it up to the public and start manufacturing some of these houses mass customized houses. So I thought it was quite interesting to have a chat about. You know, maybe the future impact Is that for the New Zealand market it's actually global.

Ben Sutherland:

So currently they're situated in Italy, in Modena, in modena just super random place to be located. I know they have like a factory over there for the, the kids, toys and that sort of thing, so perhaps it's like something to do with that. So, yeah, currently they're in italy, but basically they are opening this big facility where they are looking to manufacture, or mass customize manufacture and mass customize houses, and the way they're doing it is they have been working a lot on like an AI model they call Dream Catcher and basically, like they are, you know, it's a free for all software, so designers or anyone can kind of go on there and play around with a building and stretch it, come up with their own unique designs and then essentially press print or press play, and that information gets sent directly to the factory where it gets mass produced and sent to site.

Sam Brown:

So quite interesting when you say it's sensitive. I've got, I've got a lot of questions.

Ben Sutherland:

This is all good, it's hard to just like talk about the whole thing at all at once, so ask some questions, please first one I mean this is.

Sam Brown:

I mean, where do I start? But like first one, this kind of harkens back to the episode in the first season of the pod about AI and is this coming for our jobs? Do you see that? Or is it more of again in the vein of that, that original AI discussion, a bit more of an architectural caddy or a building industry like caddy, or is it kind of superseding the need for anybody?

Ben Sutherland:

so I think I think the idea at this point in time is that it's meant to be more of like a supportive role for the designers. So you know, architects can kind of have their own little shop built off the back of it and it's meant to help you get things through. So it's got every single local code in the world built into it already, into the large language model, yeah, exactly. Or into Dreamcatcher. So it's meant to like assist you in what you can and can't do, and it's been trained like on a lot of architects. So I guess there is an element of like plagiarism, as I guess Gerard would put it. But I guess from their perspective it but the I guess what. From their perspective, it's the builder that it's replacing, right, they'd want to manufacture these panels or mass produce these components and send it to site.

Ben Sutherland:

I don't, I don't believe they intend on actually having people on site doing the assembly. So I guess like that's what the builder would become and I don't believe that they intend on they perhaps will have like some standard designs, but they still want people to build the actual customizable or custom designs and that sort of thing. So I think like there's still an element of like requiring a designer and a builder, but they want to kind of like take that middle chunk and fabricate the components. Like every single material will be manufactured in house, so every component is going to be like produced on site. So there's no sort of upstream, downstream reliance on other components, and so that's kind of where they believe they can make like huge cost savings and efficiencies and production and so like some of their costs for their products. They say that they're getting it down to, like you know, 450, 500 a square meter, jesus. So it's significant difference really, but that's probably not including any on-site stuff.

Sam Brown:

I was gonna say how much is that? Caveated with a lot of stuff, but still, yes, still, it's insane, I guess in terms of like that question on uh, you know, you design something and press print. What are you print? Like printing like what is being produced in the factory. Is it essentially like wall floor, roof, like assembly cassettes? Are they like 3d printing shit like what's what's the outcome? Or is it like traditional construction, like what's what are they? What are these houses made from? Is it cardboard?

Ben Sutherland:

there's. There's not a huge amount of material information, but from you know, there is every single component down to like light fitting switches, concrete structures, like it's got its own kind of structural engineering element. So a lot of it is just kind of standard kind of timber, concrete and then, like I think there's like a materials that they have been developing in-house. I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm just not sure exactly what the actual materials are, but it seems relatively normal from my understanding anyway, like if you go onto the wazoo website you can kind of have a little play and like everything that appears to just be like concrete and timber and metal and that sort of thing very boxy aesthetic yeah, it's very contemporary modernism yeah, contemporary yeah, but you can kind of see where they're going with the whole.

Sam Brown:

Keep everything else in house and maximize or capitalize on the manufacturing side so from the manufacturing side, like are they do you talk about them having a factory in moderna and italy at the moment and then them being a new zealand company? Like are they, would they be looking at having like pilot factories internationally? Like, would new zealand have a factory? So if you're designing a building here and pressing print, it's getting made locally or is it getting made offshore and then shipping? You know, just from my, my perspective obviously, that whole embodied carbon consideration and all that sort of stuff. Like is it? Is it a little bit more closer to home or are you having to like still import all this stuff from europe or wherever?

Ben Sutherland:

well, I suspect that it'll start off in one place and then it'll be like based on demand, right. So like if there was like countries that fully embraced it and it made sense to have something more local, then I would imagine they'll start to localize. But I once again like they have literally just finished prototyping all these buildings. I don't even think that they have sorted out exactly how they're going to be shipping these around the world and what their on-site stuff is actually going to look like. So I suspect there's like a fair way to go in the development. Still pretty much in beta stage, yeah, but they're moving fast, you know so, I don't know, I just think the concept's quite interesting. Fast, you know so, I don't know, I just think the concept's quite interesting. And if, if it does kind of take off, well, the question is like, will it take off? And do we want it to take off? And like, if it does take off, what does that look like for us? You know, like it's all, it's all kind of interesting.

Sam Brown:

A couple of key questions there, and gerard, jump in because you've had your thoughts on this as well. But, like you know, we've discussed this a few times on the pod. But they're like you know architecture being accessible to everybody good architecture at least, or only quality building being accessible to everybody this seems like the golden ticket. Answer something like this If you can build for man, if you can even build for half the price that we are now like, let's say, you can build for half the price that we are now, let's say, you can build for 2,000 a square meter, that's a huge win. They're saying you can build for what? Do you say? 500 to 600 square meters? That's insanity. Imagine the affordable housing solutions you could come up with.

Ben Sutherland:

Well, that's a good point. Maybe this kind of thing will actually just end up targeting that more affordable housing realm. I don't, I can't really see it impacting the architectural, which is like the classic top two percent that can actually afford an architect. You know, maybe like a small portion of them will actually go to something like this, but I can't actually see it.

Sam Brown:

You say that, ben, but I think it's a misnomer in that I mean like, no, it's not a misnomer, it's, it is. It's a commonality that architecture is generally like reserved for people that can afford it or, you know, the higher owners. But I don't think that that should preclude architecture, a good architecture, from being available to everybody. And this seems like a mechanism that would actually make good architecture available to everybody, because we could, you could still design, you know, bespoke, interesting things that aren't as carbon copy or you know, as like a gj gardener home or whatever, but at an affordable price point, because you're leveraging this like huge machine for want of a better term behind you to be able to produce these houses, you know, but you've still got design freedom, because that's what it appeared.

Sam Brown:

I had a play around on the website. That's what it appears like to me is that, like there's still that sort of promising and again, like we've said, this is very much in the beta stage, but they're sort of promising that you can design whatever the hell you want and they'll print it, you know, which is pretty exciting, to be honest.

Ben Sutherland:

Yeah, it is interesting and just going back to your carbon emission comment, like it's quite sophisticated to the point where you know environmentally everything is tracked, so everything they do do, especially like you can imagine manufacturing in a factory, so much easier to actually understand what efficiency, yeah, yeah, or where you know the carbon, you know where the carbon emissions actually are and what they're kind of amounting to over the course of their life cycle, and so that there's that. And then there's also like this um, what what they're calling? Or I can't remember what they're calling it, but it's like a post occupancy element to it as well. So basically, yeah, it looks after your house and tracks everything and monitors it as well, even after construction, which is quite interesting. It really does seem like they've taken a really innovative approach and done a lot of research and tackled a lot of these quite big problems.

Gerard Dombroski:

Yeah, like if we jump back to a bigger overview. I think something that needs to be clarified a little bit is it seems that they're like kind of encompassing the whole spectrum of the process, like right from like the ai creating what is it like? They're creating their own software which would replace, like your traditional cad software. So I guess you're like already built into a system where you're designing within their parameters and their tools.

Ben Sutherland:

Is that is that kind of where we're yeah, that's right, and they're using like more, I think, like unreal engine, more like game software, as opposed to like revit or archicad or autocad, which is, to be fair, quite outdated and a little bit clunky, does the job, obviously, but it's not the most efficient. They're're not the most efficient tools, that's for sure.

Sam Brown:

They're not the most efficient tools for concept and imaginative delivery, but they are efficient at ultimately what we need to produce, and that's detailed working, drawings and documentation. How does this process? Obviously, you mentioned that they're aware of or the large language model at least is aware of certain jurisdictions and like building code requirements and standards and all those sort of things. But, like, how is that documentation process being tackled if they're using programs like unreal engine?

Ben Sutherland:

yeah, so they're taking more of like a lego approach, I guess, where it's like more like a kit of parts and an assembly right. Uh, the q, the qa is done with ai, so that's kind of like checked as you go. So is all the engineering automatically outputs a part, a working drawing set based on like requirements from the local governance or council or whatever, and it like categorizes what, who basically it understands where the order comes from and what that council.

Ben Sutherland:

It's got every council kind of scale ranked on like a scale from like hard to easy I'd love to love to see that chart those are like the complexity based on, I guess, like based on its own experience, because it's just learning as it goes as well, right, and so like yeah, I think that's kind of fascinating and I would imagine like, yeah, surely new zealand especially, we've got earthquakes as well. We'll be, uh, we'll be, right up there. Well, like you get ridiculous.

Gerard Dombroski:

You get ridiculous RFIs anyway. So, like if it's interacting with, like an AI that's sent it in a set of drawings to do that, you only can set off, as they're like battling away well, maybe for the first couple.

Ben Sutherland:

Surely it'll learn. Though that's the whole thing, though. Just going back to what Sam was saying, like, surely we all at least agree that the documentation is the part of the process that we should have automated yeah, I agree, I think to it well, I mean, that's the dream right.

Sam Brown:

Like if we were all. We're too. You know us independently. We're too small to be able to like put the time into developing these things. But I'd imagine, imagine larger architecture firms, big ones, global ones, and even the bigger ones in New Zealand. I think they'd be kidding themselves or missing the point of the future if they're not exploring already or developing their own large language models to cover documentation. They'll have more than enough background data to be able to like feed that into a model and and get it to start producing working drawings shortly maybe.

Ben Sutherland:

But on one hand I know one really connect, collects data, and on the other hand, the price of like cheap labor is probably still too cheap to actually. You know, they can just get like a bunch of students and is on a cheap hourly rate to pump all this documentation out and do all the tedious work. So they might not even have, you know, they might not feel like they need to yet, or I'm not sure if that scale, that cost versus my camera's just gone all crazy. There it is. Yeah, I'm not sure if that kind of threshold has been crossed yet, but yeah, it is really interesting'm not sure if that kind of threshold has been crossed yet, but yeah, it is really interesting. And I want, I like to think they are. But I guess, like there's also the part of me that thinks like, oh, you know, it's really good learning for the younger generation of you know, the, the young architecture designers to you know, cut the teeth on.

Sam Brown:

I guess, like well, that's a very important point, ben.

Sam Brown:

I guess, like there's always that this is that's a very important point being.

Sam Brown:

I'd like to dive into that a little bit more because you're you're so right, like the designers or students or grads, people, inexperienced people that are finding their feet or building up their skill set in the architectural profession, if they're coming into the game where they can basically design whatever they want and get a computer or get an ai model to detail it at all, how much do you reckon or do you guys both reckon that the architecture will suffer because you're not like I think, that really successful moments in architecture are obviously they have like a high level of creativity and thoughtfulness to them, but like their real successes and how they are realized, like how those, how those are detailed successfully, like particular junction this is me personally but like particular junctions and like the satisfaction of working through a problem, solving it and how much that influences the architectural outcome.

Sam Brown:

Is that going to be lost on both the designers and therefore like architectural outcomes moving forward, because everyone's just going to be like here's a scribble on a piece of paper, ai print this for me and they're not actually understanding like the nuances of certain aspects of the of the building yeah, well, that's an interesting like we've seen that degradation over the years already.

Gerard Dombroski:

You look at like older architects, like your franks and who's he all sits, like we used to use to design everything like I've mentioned this all the time just because it's funny, but frank lord wright, designing somebody's slippers once, like the level of detail that god went into was like extreme and like you've lost, we've lost that already. Like when was the last time we saw somebody do a custom light switch? Or I was into we see custom door handles, maybe on like the front door, but like man, this stuff was happening.

Ben Sutherland:

Like everywhere should we have ever had it? I mean, like building has always been super inefficient, probably due to that level of customization. No one like look at a car, right, no one actually knows, other than the mechanic, how a car is put together. And if you think of like the building more of like a product, which obviously these guys are, then it does, it becomes like irrelevant. You're like yes, there are going to be like a team of builders that know and understand it, but do we?

Gerard Dombroski:

need. I'm just asking the question whether we're making spec homes. What's your market like, as are we. What would link this conversation down to answering one question? Yes, multiple questions.

Ben Sutherland:

This literally after you have just said that. I think, like the literal question is is this architecture, right? Wow, I don't. And now I'm questioning like is this? But is this just like? Is this building a product and housing people? Is this architecture? I don't know. Yeah, I'll probably argue it's more architecture. Is a gj gardener group home building kind of thing, architecture?

Sam Brown:

I think I think it's all considered architecture. There's just varying levels of you know, bespoke and quality. To me, architecture is everything in the built environment, be that everything from a you know fence on a council path, you know, through to a you know bespoke you know, through to a dam or a museum or something that's all I agree.

Gerard Dombroski:

I agree it's a lens like because it's our profession, that's our lens like certainly going to look at everything as if it's architecture or in an architectural light. But are these guys doing the same? Maybe they've clearly put a lot of work into like the aesthetics and like the visuals, are some really nice forms and stuff going on, but is it giving somebody like a fully bespoke little prop from Gerard there that's a.

Ben Sutherland:

Didn't expect that out of the pod today.

Gerard Dombroski:

You're not far between. Well, I think architecture offers like to your client, like the ability for extreme bespoke, like you get to choose your own involvement. It's like one of the books you can read whichever page you want in, in whatever order, that all handmade door handles by somebody, which is very easy bolt-on sort of thing in this instance. But I think that the analogy survives, but are they not not?

Sam Brown:

not necessarily promising, because I don't think they quite know what they're delivering yet. That's my take. But are they not kind of alluding to the fact that you will have that level of customization?

Gerard Dombroski:

Yeah, but it's all within parameters.

Sam Brown:

Yeah, exactly. But to that point, gerard, is that not how we're designing now anyway, because, like you've just said, when was the last time we designed everything down to the client's slippers? Yeah, except right now we're doing it really inefficiently. We are we're doing it really inefficiently Most of the time. We're picking from a catalogue of available materials. And it's not even just available materials. It's available materials that bloody councils are going to be happy signing off on because they can't see outside of a tick box exercise, yeah hard.

Sam Brown:

You know like, are we not already pigeonholed as a profession into that, particularly in New Zealand, I find, anyway pigeonholed already into that sort of direction or into that box.

Gerard Dombroski:

That's kind of what I was trying to allude to before direction or into their blocks. That's kind of what I was trying to allude to before. We've already seen that degradation in just suppliers' offerings. I guess we have our preferred suppliers and it's just so easy to outsource your spec to Resign or Dulux or whatever. This kind of my intention of architecture is to go down that route of like extreme customization. That's why I have a workshop and like to make strange things Like I'd like to go down to, like knives and forks and you know, bowls, plates, handles lights.

Ben Sutherland:

They might be your biggest competition, mate.

Gerard Dombroski:

Yeah, my factory at one your biggest competition, mate.

Ben Sutherland:

Yeah, my factory at one, you'd buy one robot arm to help out around the place.

Gerard Dombroski:

Yeah, buy like a bolt Awesome.

Sam Brown:

They're not promising that level of detail, are they? They're really just promising a shell.

Ben Sutherland:

Yeah.

Gerard Dombroski:

No, no, I think where I want to go is a different direction too.

Sam Brown:

Yeah, I see. So what you're alluding to is maintaining the integrity of architecture, despite this being an offering in the market.

Gerard Dombroski:

Yeah, I'm fully okay for this to exist. I'm like 1,000% for affordable housing and people being able to house themselves. I think it's one of the bigger problems on earth that needs to be solved, and if this solves it, then shit bed, it's awesome yes, it's amazing.

Sam Brown:

It's amazing initiative, if this is gonna have that result for sure yeah, but I still like making art design some slippers yeah, man, you want some slippers, I want some slippers you know I want some slippers, some metal slippers.

Sam Brown:

Ben, you said something interesting that's just been twisting around in the back of my head for the last minute, but you know he talked about cars and how, essentially, what they're looking to do with housing is what the auto industry does, and that you create a model of car and you just pump out 10 000 of those and it's super monetarily efficient because you're just doing the same thing over and over and over and over again and it's serving a huge need. Like you know, a lot of people need a toyota corolla. That's fantastic. You can produce it cheaply, it's an affordable car, works, it'll last forever. Happy days if we're, if they're looking at this as a housing solution.

Sam Brown:

In that same vein, what you said was really interesting is that only a mechanic really knows how to fix a car, and that's fair. Obviously you've got some people that are, you know, a little bit more clued up than others, but myself, a car has four wheels and a steering wheel and I drive it from a to b and that's all I know and care about it. Really is that it's? Is that an issue with this as a housing? B, and that's all I know and care about it really. Is that an issue with this as a housing solution, in that it becomes too specialised to understand how these buildings are made and therefore maintenance becomes a problem?

Ben Sutherland:

Well, you know, just like you have mechanics, you'll just have builders that know how to maintain them right. It really isn't that hard. And don maintain them right. It really isn't that hard. And don't forget like building actually isn't that hard. Cars are probably a lot more technical.

Sam Brown:

There's not actually a huge amount of builders.

Ben Sutherland:

There's not actually I can say this I'm a qualified builder, so take that, take that world, and actually there's not a huge amount of components, right, it's just that a lot bigger. There's a lot more labor involved. But, like, there's not a huge amount of components, right, it's just a lot bigger, there's a lot more labor involved, but there's not that many components. If there's any product that could be mass customized, essentially housing is kind of one of the ones that could make sense.

Sam Brown:

I totally agree.

Ben Sutherland:

But think about how much resistance or how long it's taken any form of prefabrication to really make tracks or get off the ground in new zealand you know, yeah, but that's just like electric cars until one company comes along and shows everyone how it's done and then the whole kind of market booms. So you know, this could easily just be like a spearheading that whole.

Sam Brown:

Are these guys the Tesla of the housing industry?

Ben Sutherland:

Who knows? That's the whole thing, though, Like we laugh at this now, but in a year's time or five years' time, is this going to be everywhere?

Sam Brown:

Who knows.

Gerard Dombroski:

To continue the car analogy, have you heard of the Hilux Chad? It's the new Toyota, the new Toyota Hilux. I think it's for new toyota hylux or like I think it's for indonesia, philippines oh yeah, you're telling me about this, it's such a beautiful little dude man I want it so bad, but it's like, but it's illegal. 10 grand, I think, over legal in a lot of countries yeah, so, like the toyota's, made something that's manufactured so efficiently and so cheaply that it would just cut the market out of most utility trucks in most countries.

Sam Brown:

And is that why it's banned? Or is it missing a whole bunch of critical safety features for many countries? But these other countries are letting it slide to provide an affordable solution.

Gerard Dombroski:

Yeah, I don't know enough about it.

Ben Sutherland:

It's a Toyota made, so a toyota is better than a good point it'll last.

Sam Brown:

We know it'll last forever.

Gerard Dombroski:

No it'll only last half of forever now let's say hypothetically, this thing, this technology works out amazing and undercuts the entire market. Would they just crash the industry and like what the government be like?

Ben Sutherland:

no, why. Why would they do that? We've got a housing shortage. Can you imagine the kickback?

Sam Brown:

yeah, but the thing is that you know everything's big business right. If these guys come in, they take over the whole market, that whole. You know that. I don't want to get into the politics of it, but you know the whole building industry in new zealand is a industry that's like, rife with monopolization and scratching each other's backs, and you know kickbacks and yeah, exactly, it's, it's, it's heinous, and so I agree with what gerard said. I think there could be huge resistance to something that's coming in, because the people on high are not going to be able to get their little bonus from Fletchers or from whoever, maybe this will finally push them out of there then and everyone will get what they're after.

Sam Brown:

Yeah, I mean I think it's Could be the best thing for the industry. It could be. I mean it could make all of us sit up a little bit and realize that there's real competition out there and that we all have to sharpen up.

Gerard Dombroski:

Innovative diet.

Sam Brown:

Like with the automotive industry, Tesla made the whole world stand on, watch and go oh shit, we've actually got to take this EV situation seriously.

Ben Sutherland:

Yeah, and then I guess like they'd be like construction companies and architecture firms, that specialty kind of like built off the back of them. Only do you know their products and their assemblies and their onsite stuff and that sort of thing.

Gerard Dombroski:

So I guess, yeah just be another accredited installer.

Sam Brown:

It's interesting I mean again, I don't want to keep going back to the automotive industry, but it is a very, very good parallel. It's a very you know it's a, you know it's a, it's very accurate parallel and that there's the market for this affordable um entry-level, mass-produced solution, like your Toyota Hilux truck that you're talking about, gerard, but there's still a market for your bespoke Bentleys as well. So I think this doesn't destroy. Back to the ultimate question. I think that we had at the top of the pod is like is this going to ruin architecture or the building industry? No, it just changes the field a little bit, but there's still space for everybody to operate it'll take a while to get a ride on the board.

Gerard Dombroski:

There was that recent one that was the most.

Ben Sutherland:

Wasn't that one of the most efficient buildings ever built in new zealand?

Gerard Dombroski:

talking about different ones. There's these I'm kidding.

Ben Sutherland:

It's like the most inefficient building. It's like what if someone, someone calculated oh what's the cost per square meter was like something outrageous yeah, so that that system is like being you know supposed to be like.

Gerard Dombroski:

Well, I got two grand two, two and a half a square meter max and it came in at was it seven or?

Ben Sutherland:

eight. I thought it was like 16, oh yeah probably so.

Gerard Dombroski:

I wonder how much of that was in the factory versus how much of that was the new zealand installers just ramping up the costs. Yeah, so if it is a product and most of that's made in china, then you got a big chunk of shipping.

Ben Sutherland:

Oh yeah, no, actually it wasn't that bad. It was like it cost over $630,000, totaling approximately $7.6 million for the development. Apparently, that's like $3,500 per square meter. Well, that's probably pretty good, there, isn't it? It said each unit cost $600. How big were they? How many squares? Which means that the whole development amounted to 2.2 million. So I'm not sure how many units there were, but that's a lot of money.

Gerard Dombroski:

So I think, ultimately it was a system that promised low square metre rates and would have been promised to the Earth and then delivered, and that's to deliver.

Sam Brown:

So I guess what we're saying here is that this system, or this zero system, is still yet to prove itself?

Ben Sutherland:

Yeah, so they've completed. Apparently they've nearly perfected their prototypes have they built anything.

Sam Brown:

That's the biggest question.

Ben Sutherland:

Yeah they've built heaps of buildings in their factories, but they haven't built for a customer and sent it to site, because that's that's the difference.

Sam Brown:

You can do whatever you like in a vacuum and it will work in a vacuum. You put it into the real world. How well does it operate? Right, like you know, there's a reason. Prototype cars don't always get made. Yeah, but there's steps to it.

Ben Sutherland:

There's steps to it right. First you got to like nail the manufacturing, and then you've got to nail the assembly, and then it's just the logistical game after that. Then you got to nail it together then you're not fun together hey, yo sorry, I just went full dad mode on you guys.

Gerard Dombroski:

Yeah, appreciate that. I'm here for it.

Sam Brown:

Is there anyone? We've only talked about one company. Is there anybody challenging them? Is anybody else doing the same thing? Apparently, yes. Right At home, as in New Zealand, or internationally, or like what's the other, who's their?

Ben Sutherland:

challengers out there. Well, not in this country, right? Not really, because they've sunk hundreds of millions of dollars into it, and I doubt like there's anyone in new zealand, any builders in new zealand that have just like a low-key, hundreds of millions of dollars floating around. But I suspect, like in terms of the automation oh sorry, the dreamcatcher side of things, even like autodesk and desult systems and that sort of thing are probably doing, you know, they'll definitely be working on similar products like how could they not right?

Sam Brown:

well, yeah, I'm surprised that you know wherever it uses. I'm surprised that arcade software doesn't have a level of ai to it already.

Ben Sutherland:

Yeah, I know have you, have you used, have you been using um 2025?

Sam Brown:

no, I usually wait a year until all the bug fixes have been ironed out before I download the latest version it's so.

Ben Sutherland:

It's like the first version I've used. That is like quite a bit it's the same, but it's like you know how, sometimes, like apple goes through that process of like simplifying what all the apps look like and everything, yeah, and the changing the colors. They've done that on revit 2025 and I'm like what is everything? Like everything is like a different color and it's like super simplified. But there are some good improvements, I gotta say, from what I've seen so far. Just to get a little bit nerdy on it there, but that's the trick though that would be awesome.

Sam Brown:

I'm right here for a new market contender in the uh can software in the software is so expensive, man they're so expensive and they're so, to your point earlier on, they're so archaic, I guess to a degree.

Gerard Dombroski:

Like they, really they fundamentally.

Sam Brown:

I mean haven't changed and I've been using CAD software for 20 years. I mean there'll be people out there, there'll be addicts out there that have been using CAD software for 40 years plus, like they. Fundamentally, haven't changed ever, yeah, well, another thing that yeah sorry, no.

Sam Brown:

No, I was going to say a bit of parametric, like you know, parametrics brought in by the likes of rhino and that sort of thing, but ultimately they're still the same thing another thing that really roughs me up is I'm really I'm quite sure like new zealand, doesn't actually new zealand, australia, like everyone gets different versions of the software.

Ben Sutherland:

So there's like things that new zealand version of revit can't do that others, you know overseas, can do and that sort of thing and that's always really annoying yeah because I I'm like always. I always use like chat, gvt and that sort of thing when I'm stuck and trying to figure something out, and then it's always like so many times it's like you use the New Zealand version and you can't do this.

Sam Brown:

I'm like damn so annoying. It's like Netflix, right? You need a VPN for your Revit.

Ben Sutherland:

Why does us, being a little island nation, mean that we get shafted on the functionalities of Revit as well?

Sam Brown:

We're not going to let you guys develop cool shit. No exactly.

Ben Sutherland:

They are controlling our growth 100% they are. They are They'll have stuff that has light years ahead, that they like they'll have like stuff that's a light years ahead, that they're just kind of drip feeding the industry that's why it needs, like somebody needs to come in with like a paradigm shift yeah, well, that's kind of why like this could be quite cool, just to like give autodesk a bit of a you know, more competition, that sort of thing. That'd be quite nice, yeah, like even beyond.

Sam Brown:

yeah, because I kind of see the success in this thing not necessarily I think they've got so much to prove in the delivery of an actual built finished project, like I think that's that, despite what you say being in terms of what development they're put in, I think that there's so much to go in that space, but where, where the success is clearly going to lie, I think and already you can see it, I've not played around with it enough, but you can even see it on the surface is in that CAD challenging spectrum or in that realm.

Gerard Dombroski:

Yeah, is there, somewhere you can play on their software.

Ben Sutherland:

I haven't had a good play. I'm not sure if you can download Dreamcatcher yet, but you can have a little play on the website. I haven't tried to download it.

Gerard Dombroski:

I don't know if it's available yet, but it will be soon, yeah imagine being able to teach your AI detailer software your type of details or like, along with the basic code. If it could like, blend in a bit more.

Sam Brown:

I had this discussion with someone at the start of the year, midway through last year coming about a really good discussion about them about AI, and they were astounded that we weren't developing larger language models and feeding them our details and feeding them our annotation systems and all that sort of stuff and getting them to build for us.

Ben Sutherland:

Yeah, who was that? What industry were they from? Banking oh.

Sam Brown:

And they were saying that all of their focus is on building large language models to do the menial shit that no one else, that no one really wants to do. And that's exactly what we need, ai to do for us as well.

Sam Brown:

I mean, to that point, though, I still think that we want to really dive in and get intrinsic and get bespoke. You still want to be able to have that flexibility, but all those generic things that you need to deal with, and most of the time, those that generic shatters, the compliance side of things well, why is ai not doing that for?

Ben Sutherland:

that for us yeah, and so costing as well. So these guys say you know, because you're flexing your model and adding various elements like windows, doors, materials, that all of the pricing is live as well. So I mean, like that could be quite interesting. That's definitely something I've played around with a lot in the past, and not successfully, unfortunately, but always been an advocate for live pricing yeah, I think that would be.

Sam Brown:

That's a huge thing. I find that it's a huge thing for our industry. It's a frustration that I have constantly is how in the dark we as architects actually are around pricing, and even to the point where suppliers won't give us or like merchants and stuff won't actually give us pricing information. Do you guys find that and I'm like, how are we supposed to have a handle on how much things are going to cost, or how are we supposed to get a handle on design decisions when are going to cost? Or how are we supposed to get a handle on like design decisions when you actually won't give us a straight?

Ben Sutherland:

answer I never had that, never had that hustle, hustle hard, but it just should be easy, right, like we did.

Sam Brown:

You know, like obviously, like yeah, you can hustle hard, you can really dive down, you can like press something for information, but it's usually so reluctant for like why is there not like a portal for us to just go and be able to like see the reality of pricing somewhere?

Gerard Dombroski:

yeah, you know, different builders have different prices well, then there's.

Sam Brown:

Another thing.

Ben Sutherland:

You're right, yeah, but different distributors have different prices, so a lot of it kind of depends on A the level of the builder. So how big the builder is, if they're like a one-man band, obviously they're not putting as much product through.

Ben Sutherland:

Their turnover is a lot lower, so they're not putting as much product through those placemakers or your bunnings or whatever, and so you get smaller is a lot lower, so they're not putting as much product through those you know placemakers or your bunnings or whatever, and so like you get smaller discounts, whereas if you're a large manufacturing group home builder, basically you get a lot better discounts and that and rates and then and then, every single bunnings and placemakers and yada, yada yada offer different rates as well. So it's pretty much impossible to have the same.

Sam Brown:

Well, that's exactly the thing and that's why that's why it's such a frustration when people try and compare to build projects. Even in this, you know let's say, take new zealand, for example, I built. You know, if you build something in the north island versus you build something in the south island, exactly the same they will cost different amounts of money.

Ben Sutherland:

So it's so hard for like cost parity in the industry you know, yeah, but that's just the market, right, you know the market governs it, you know. So it's hard to say because, like in South Island, like a lot of the products that you use might not be as readily available as North Island.

Sam Brown:

So there's just so many contributing factors, totally, but that's what I, that's what I love about this, like zuru solution is that you're not. You're not being dictated by your locale, you're not being dictated by whether you're using a group home builder or a one band you know one man, band or anything like. The price that you're seeing is what it's costing and that gives so much confidence and surety to the process, which I think is so necessary, particularly in the residential market.

Ben Sutherland:

But what I hate about this is one company gets extremely rich while all of the middle sector, all of the builders a lot of the architects.

Sam Brown:

It does um reduce their workflow, gets significantly less. It's everyone else, everyone else's shortcoming for not like bringing themselves up to speed, like and this is like the one person bolts and no one chases them. You can't be blamed for coming last in the race, you know yeah, I do somewhat agree.

Ben Sutherland:

I can understand what you're saying, but that's also kind of. You know, this is kind of shit as well, because, like yeah you're like, you're like trained for a bit as a builder, right, and you've been a builder for however many years, and then someone tells you, oh, you need to upskill to be a guy who presses a button in a factory. I don't know like, do you want to? It's kind of not ideal.

Gerard Dombroski:

Yeah, work is like shifts are happen all the time. I guess all the people that just used to draw on a drawing board when they had to start using computers, there would have been some late adapters.

Ben Sutherland:

Yeah, actually speaking of which, another competitor, slightly different, but is on its way for sure. I think Tesla and that company figure, like the Workerbots, those ones are going to have a bit of an impact on the industry as well. What are Workerbots? Like humanoid robots that are designed to have a bit of an impact on the industry as well worker bots like humanoid, humanoid robots, robots that are designed to like boston dynamic scenario, like lift stuff there you go, I know, some of those monotonous tasks.

Sam Brown:

I named this episode. I am robot.

Ben Sutherland:

That's the whole premise of that yeah, yeah, I think that they'll be quite popular, even in this country. I would say we could probably even start seeing them within the year, right Within the year Do you reckon.

Gerard Dombroski:

Yep, maybe two, I've heard of set-out robots that are like yeah guilty set-out robots that like prints out your plans onto the slab, which is pretty interesting. Oh, I've seen those. They're cool.

Sam Brown:

I do seem to be horrendously expensive plans onto the slap, which is pretty interesting.

Gerard Dombroski:

Awesome, is that cool do seem to be horrendously expensive. So it's like yeah, are you a big enough company that you can get one of those, or does that just become another sub trade?

Ben Sutherland:

well, you know, by the time, it takes you one man to just go ping some lines you know like is absolutely not feasible. It's like half a day's work to ping some lines, or half a day's work for a bunch of guys to stand around waiting for a robot to ping some light, to print some lines. It needs to be a really fast robot. Yeah, probably is. I haven't actually seen it. They do look cool though, do you have?

Ben Sutherland:

go make cups of tea, yeah I think like the integration of like one of those worker bots could be quite you know, you could easily integrate one of those onto your site quite easily, you know, for all the heavy lifting and like taking the wheelbarrow out and all of those tasks that actually kind of do some physical damage yeah, I can see, I can see why that would be good kind of good speed it up Totally.

Sam Brown:

but then you get into the argument of it taking jobs from labourers.

Ben Sutherland:

Maybe that's like the apprentices cutting their teeth on all of those tasks. The scenario is the drafting.

Sam Brown:

Are we getting lesser builders because they're not having to push a wheelbarrow? No, I don't know about that.

Ben Sutherland:

Yeah.

Sam Brown:

Hate it or love it. Who's got? A hate it or love?

Gerard Dombroski:

it Alright. On that note, motorised wheelbarrows hate it or love it, Because I'm taking too many away from there.

Sam Brown:

Are you talking about motorised wheelbarrows, as the one that just have a motor?

Gerard Dombroski:

in the wheel. Yeah, they're great.

Sam Brown:

I love them. How could you hate those?

Ben Sutherland:

We brought one of those little motors for the front of our boat so if we could pull it out the driveway two meters without having to push it.

Sam Brown:

That's lazy.

Ben Sutherland:

And damn it's so heavy.

Gerard Dombroski:

It's so good, it is a Ryan, so that's money well spent. I'm here for that.

Ben Sutherland:

I'm pro, absolutely I'm pro motorized. I've never actually used one, though, funnily enough, but they do look cool.

Sam Brown:

So is that, yeah, hate it or love it? Motorizing men's things.

Gerard Dombroski:

Motorizing wheels.

Ben Sutherland:

Iizing wheels.

Gerard Dombroski:

Motorizing wheels. You've got a wheel, motorize it.

Ben Sutherland:

No, I'm going hated actually, because you know they weren't around when I needed them. I don't want them to come in now when I'm not going to use one you can get back on the tools. My booning days are done. You can get back on the tools.

Sam Brown:

I don't need one anymore.

People on this episode

Contributor

Ben Sutherland

Host
Contributor

Gerard Dombroski

Co-host
Head Shot

Sam Brown

Co-host