Design Principles Pod
Architecture. A hot topic, a buzz word, a realm for the rich and famous, or the thing that your step uncle does? We will be unpacking the good, the bad and the downright reality of the architectural and construction industry. With insights from industry professionals and personal anecdotes from our three hosts Ben, Gerard and Sam, you will be given a look behind the closed pages of those fancy looking moleskins. Tune in and redline out.
Design Principles Pod
The Architects' Voice: Advocating for the Role of the Architect
What happens when the people who shape our cities, schools, and homes are missing from the public conversation about our built environment? Award-winning architect Lisa Webb joins us to unpack architecture's growing crisis of relevance in New Zealand.
Following her thought-provoking piece in the NZIA Bulletin, Lisa shares her concerns about architects becoming increasingly sidelined in discussions about housing, climate resilience, and community building. "We have a lack of voice, a lack of mandate, and a lack of mana," she observes, pointing to recent political attacks on the profession that went largely unchallenged.
We explore the disconnect between how architects communicate their value (often through beautiful images) versus what clients and communities truly value about architectural services. As one colleague noted, "Pretty pictures are scrollable but have no real sense of the agency the architect brought to bear." This insight leads us to discuss meaningful alternatives – sharing client testimonials, documenting transformed lives, and telling the stories behind successful projects.
The conversation reveals a profession at a crossroads: highly trained professionals with unique holistic oversight capabilities who nonetheless struggle to assert their relevance. We discuss how smaller practices in particular face challenges being heard, while questioning whether the profession's traditional reluctance toward marketing has become self-defeating in today's media landscape.
Lisa challenges listeners to move beyond waiting for someone else to advocate for architecture. Whether through greater engagement with the NZIA, strategic marketing, or simply telling better stories about what architects actually do, the path forward requires collective action from a profession that designs not just buildings, but lives.
Key Links:
- https://www.studiolwa.co.nz/
- https://www.nzia.co.nz/member-area/resources/news/2025/architecture-in-crisis-why-our-relevance-is-fading/
- https://www.nzia.co.nz/member-area/resources/news/2025/a-response-to-architecture-in-crisis/
Chapters:
0:00 - Introduction to Lisa Webb
6:00 - The Problem with Architectural Advocacy
16:40 - Lost Voices in the Housing Crisis
26:30 - Architecture as Service vs. Product
35:25 - Marketing Architecture: Breaking Taboos
43:45 - Finding Power in the Profession
54:30 - Collective Action and Moving Forward
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This week's episode is brought to you by Parrot Dog Limited Releases, an ongoing series of occasional one-off beer releases inspired by the nice ideas captured in the Lyle Bay Brewery. Limited Release 25 is a double IPA brewed with a crisp, dry pale malt base and absolutely loaded with intense US and NZ hop varieties, providing punchy, citrus, stone fruit and white wine characters along with the firm bitterness Nice.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to the Design Principles Podcast. You're here with myself, gerard, ben and Sam. Today we are joined by Lisa Webb of Studio LWA, the winner of the 2021 Ian Athfield Award for Housing. She's based in Auckland and creates some very intentional and considered architecture. I particularly like her use of section and sunlight and section specifically. We architects generally do like a thoughtful use of section.
Speaker 2:In this podcast, we discuss the importance of the NZAA and its role in advocating for the architectural profession. While we don't want to pile on, we do want to have a good, constructive conversation around how our profession is viewed by New Zealanders and how can we engage more with the non-architect world, ultimately, for the good of us all. We ask what is currently being done to advocate for architecture, our level of involvement in the public discourse. We ask are we absenting ourselves from the public discussion and what can we do to improve the profession's involvement and standing in New Zealand and potentially bring us back into the fold? I hope you enjoy our conversation with Lisa. I got onto Lisa by Samantha Zontag from Sundane Architects.
Speaker 3:All right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we were having a passionate rant myself, her and her husband just about marketing and whatever, and then she sent me your email, so it's kind of a continuation of our rant.
Speaker 3:Yeah, actually it was a conversation that I had with her before Christmas. It was one of the sort of crystallizing conversations I had. She was talking about how she was going to take the time she had over Christmas, you know, with a sort of not a huge amount of workflow, to write a booklet about what architects bring to the table and how they do things differently from group home providers, or drafts people or know architectural designers or that kind of she was talking about. You know how do I explain to my clients endlessly that we add value to the picture and I thought, oh, that sounds like something someone else could do for all of them.
Speaker 1:She doesn't have to do all the mahi, but if she's, if she's done it, sam please share it Exactly, but it really hit on the nail for me.
Speaker 3:One. One of the problems which, you know, I sort of feel like the thing that I'm worried about is the sort of younger, the younger architectural practices out there, and I think a lot of the bigger practices you know, whose voices are heard, don't deal with the same sort of stuff that you do when you're smaller and starting out. You know so the endless amount of energy that you put into advocating for yourself and describing what you do and why you're worth paying for and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4:So I thought that was, you know, that was one of the things that kind of drove me to write the bulletin piece yeah, that's awesome and, as a bit of context for you, we basically established this podcast for a very similar reason, which is kind of creating more awareness just around design in general.
Speaker 1:So there's definitely some crossovers there as well yeah, I think we found that and you sort of alluded to this as well in your piece and it's a frustration that we've voiced quite often on the podcast that a lot of architectural content and architects in general and the awards is targeted back at ourselves, which is lovely for self-support but not great for building a good client base. So, yeah, it was a big purpose for starting this podcast is to sort of demystify, debunk kind of like, just make these sort of discussions and awareness a little bit more accessible to ourselves, the architectural profession, but also the general public, and I'd say our listener base is pretty varied, which is a good indication that we do have non-architects tuning in and trying to find out more.
Speaker 2:I guess on the back of that, the three of us as well are young practicers. We're pretty early in our. We all have our own companies to some degree. Out more, I guess, on the the back of that, the three of us as well are young practices. We're pretty early in our. We all have our own companies to some degree. But like the marketing and how to get clients and how how you run the practice, sometimes you feel like you're, I work alone by myself in a in my office, so I don't really have people around me. So it's nice when you actually have these chats with somebody and you kind of realize you're, you're not alone and everyone else has frustrations around marketing and like what is what is going on? Why is why is this so hard? Am I allowed to market? Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a hilarious question, isn't it?
Speaker 3:yeah, for so long I thought you weren't allowed shall I give you my thoughts yeah please fire away you want me to introduce myself for the podcast, or how do you do that?
Speaker 4:long I thought you weren't allowed. Shall I give you my thoughts? Yeah, please Fire away. Do you want me to introduce myself for the podcast, or how do you do that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we will do an introduction at the beginning, but I guess, yeah, just as a quick overview, that would be awesome. Yeah, so kia ora kato kato ko. Lisa Weberhoe. I'm an architect based in Auckland and I have my own practice and I was thinking it's probably important to note that I graduated in the mid-90s, so just to give a bit of generational expertise and also just awareness of, you know, I've seen this before and I was thinking, when you invited me, how to sort of approach my thoughts, which have been a little bit sort of, you know, high energy, shall we say this whole subject.
Speaker 3:So I was thinking back in 2014, the NZIA did a practice series, a sort of series of lectures, and one of the lecturers was a woman from LA who was a PR specialist and her company specializes in PR for architects and her name was Julie Taylor and she came out and I distinctly remember her standing at the podium in the lecture theater and she had a copy of the Herald newspaper. Basically all she did was lift up the newspaper and say okay, this is what came to me in my hotel room this morning Story about a major infrastructure project. Where's the comment from the architect? Then she turned the page and she said artist's impression of what looks like an architecturally designed building, who's there? And something about, you know, education and schooling. Well, where's the comment from the architect? And just basically, page after page after page in the Herald. She ripped us a new one, told us how useless we were and we all walked out of the lecture.
Speaker 3:Well, I walked out of the lecture thinking, yes, you know, we're going to do something about this, we're going to acknowledge that this is a problem. We're going to start, you know, thinking about how we present ourselves to the public and how we sort of stand up for ourselves and communicate the value that we bring. And, of course, you know, in the 10 years I realised since that lecture, pretty much nothing has happened. We don't seem to have moved the dial very far. And then, in 2021, I put my house into the awards, and it was the first project I've ever entered into an awards programme and I won, and I won the RCN Asfield Award for housing. Congratulations, I've seen that.
Speaker 1:It's very impressive.
Speaker 3:It was a bit of a shock, but one of the things that happened out of that was that it was during COVID. So they shot a video of me getting the award and I'm still getting clients coming in referencing that video Like it's out there in the world. I have sort of clear sort of understanding of the value that that piece of videography has created for my business and, you know, it really underscores to me the importance of storytelling, like telling stories and hearing the voices from our clients and all that sort of stuff that people are sort of suggesting doing more of. So there was that and then a couple of years ago some friends of mine, Tom Gill and Hala, finished the co-house in Surrey Crescent, If you guys are familiar with that project.
Speaker 4:Yep, I've been to that. It's awesome.
Speaker 3:Yeah, really like an intense achievement. You know, shepherding a whole group of people with different ideas and different sort of breeds together to create something collaboratively and something that basically an apartment in the co-house for the similar value of a developer-led apartment across the road. You get the same kind of apartment but you also get the use of a shared guest space. You get a garden house. You get a garden so you're living on greenery and vegetables and all that sort of stuff. And then you go there and there's this wonderful rabble of kids running around and people sort of living you know best lives. It seems to me and compelling. We did, we did it with a developer client of mine and like the difference between seeing the sad woman in the flesh you know townhouse developer apartment sort of folding her nappies on her own and then going over there and seeing all these kids and the, you know, having that sense of community and takes a village and all that stuff. Like I knew I knew which one I preferred.
Speaker 3:But when it was reviewed it was reviewed sort of architecturally and it was found to be sort of wanting with respect to sort of poetry and a little bit more, you know, maybe prosaic than the reviewer was kind of expecting. So there was kind of talk around why isn't there a meadow? You know, why are there vegetables? Why isn't there a meadow? And I sort of realized that, you know, it really started me thinking about this issue. Why do we not have a voice in the housing crisis? Why are we not taken seriously? Why are we privileging meadows over vegetables and kids having space to run around? It was a moment where I just realized that I feel like we're looking at the wrong things. Does that make sense?
Speaker 4:Yeah, definitely. That whole expectation about what a property, especially in the residential sector, like what a property should consist of and what, what you know what amenities it should have and what spaces it should have, is just crazy in my opinion. Any kind of european style projects with medium density or anything like that in this country just gets shunned straight away because, uh, you know, it doesn't have a private yard or a private this or private that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's just very interesting I just sort of feel like they had, they had, they had made a real achievement and it wasn't really acknowledged by the community. Because you know we were looking at.
Speaker 4:You know gutter, details and all the stuff that maybe isn't the most important thing to be looking at yeah, they created a community, a really well-functioning community, and everyone there, just you know, loves it and loves the design and it works so well for them.
Speaker 1:But you compare that to a similar type of project and, yeah, I mean like it's just an individual in their individual house and I think this is this is the one of the cornerstone issues, right is that architecture is thought of as a built, as a building, or the built element only, and it doesn't necessarily take into consideration the way that it's embodied you know, client and human interaction, all of those sort of things, and it's't necessarily take into consideration the way that it's embodied, you know, client and human interaction, all of those sort of things, and it's the story of architecture that really makes something successful.
Speaker 1:The building can be from mediocre to exceptional, but if it has an exceptional story behind it, it's an exceptional piece of architecture. In my opinion anyway, and I think that's often lost Lacey to your point. You know, in my opinion anyway, and I think that's often lost Lacey to your point, you know, with some critique or through the award system or anything, is that narrative is often not presented, and I think that is where maybe the public's not maybe misconception, but misunderstanding of what we do as architects lands is that we don't just design buildings but we design your life really, that we don't just design buildings but we design your life really. So, ultimately, I think that's a point that's never really been succinctly brought across. I don't really know how to do it, because it's so intangible as well, I've had some ideas.
Speaker 1:Fire away, please yeah, fire away.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So this is sort of a drum that I've been banging for years, like literally since 2014. Every time I had a chance to talk to an architect, I'd be like you know, what do you think about this? And I think there was always this sense of oh, you know, you're trying to make us like the stick man on the pack and save ad. But last year, of course, I started talking to people and all of a sudden, there was much more of a sort of engagement about these issues. You know, there was a sort of a confluence of a whole lot of issues that came together around. Obviously, the economy's the big one In a political situation.
Speaker 3:I personally found it really difficult to hear Erica Stanford get on the podium and say the reason all the school projects have been cancelled is because of and I'm quoting fancy architects. That was really challenging, and I'm quoting fancy architects. That was really challenging. And the thing is, that's fine, that's your job to deflect blood from yourself, but it's our job to stand up for ourselves and say, well, actually, this is what we bring to a school project. And I mean, I know that myself because I've been to. I've been on a, I've done two tours of jury duty. I've been to some, you know, a couple of really amazing schools one in Nelson that Sheppard Rout did, where the teacher literally chased me down the stairs saying you know, you need to understand how happy we are to be teaching here and how much you know happier the kids are and how better they're learning. Like these are all lovely stories that are just not being communicated and, quite frankly, could be communicated, yeah.
Speaker 3:So then I started thinking about well, you know what are the issues? And it sort of feels to me out of all of this like, if you distill it down, we are suffering from a lack of power in our society, we have a lack of voice and we have a lack of mandate and we have a lack of mana. We are sort of struggling as a community and I was talking to my friend about it this morning and she said you'd better be a bit more optimistic than that. But if I look at sort of the issues of the day right, climate change, adaptation and resilience I've written myself a list Climate change, adaptation and resilience, infrastructure, housing, crisis, community building, the developers leading the government strategies. Every time you hear Chris Pink on the TV, you know that, say developers told him. You know the scaffolding's really expensive or you know this H1 stuff has to go. You know that they're listening to. You know one part of our construction industry and not all of us, not all of us.
Speaker 3:So I wrote the piece in the bulletin on the 14th of February and from that you know I got quite a lot of responses. One of my friends, mike Hartley do you know him? He hit the nail on the head and this is a very Mike Hartley statement. He said pretty pictures are very scrollable but have no real sense of the agency that the architect brought to bear in the project to make it the perfectly tailored solution to a unique problem which hits that issue that you were describing, which is that we provide a service but we are judged on the product.
Speaker 3:Yep no-transcript stories like the stuff, sam, that you were talking about. You know the, the happy stories, the kids learning well, the clients who enjoy their, their, projects. You know, like, if you want to look at developer-led strategy strategies on the housing crisis, and you know weigh that up, all you need to do is drive down the northern or the northwestern motorway and see the developer-led projects and then go to Hobsonville and see the difference that architect involvement makes literally to people's lives. But we are not, again, we're not communicating that very well. Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 1:You listed a raft of things, issues of the present day and I think one thing that really stands out to me is, across that entire list, there's really only one entity that I see that has a professional oversight across all of those things, and that's us. And that's us. And I think that that is misunderstood and not presented well enough by ourselves and by our profession, because you look at it and you look at things in isolation. Let's look at maybe let's look at the environment aspect of it, or we look to climate strategists or green building councils or something, but who else works in that realm? Architects? You look at the developer-led stuff okay, you've got people williams court building a lot of buildings but who can do it better and who has a better oversight over that? Us? You know, these are just.
Speaker 1:These are just examples, but ultimately, what I'm trying to say is like there is one overarching profession that has real insight into all of these problems and that is architects, and I think it's an issue in new zealand, and that we cherry pick individuals to solve problems rather than looking at the bigger picture, the holistic picture, and finding the right person or the right professional, the right entity to tackle all of that, and I think that's somewhere where we could probably try and you know, develop a little bit more.
Speaker 1:That, speaking to clients and people out there that are looking to start projects, is you need somebody that has that overview, that complete overview and that professional complete overview as well. We're very informed because we're not experts. I'm not going to try and say that you know across the board by any means, but we're trained, highly trained, to be able to find that right information, to bring those teams together, to manage those teams and to produce beautiful outcomes as well. Now we're speaking a lot about the emotion, but the aesthetic also can't be lost. Yeah, so that's just sort of like my my view on it, and I think yeah, I mean, have you guys worked on sort of larger projects?
Speaker 1:not in my current life. Ever, Not as a RET Architect, but in a previous, prior to starting my own practice. Yes, big time yeah.
Speaker 3:So, if you work on a big commercial project, you see what you know. You see what architects bring to the table in terms of what you're describing, which is, you know, facilitating the bringing together of different people's different perspectives consultants you know nutty problems, client briefs, planning issues. We are the ones who facilitate all that decision making. We're the one who integrate all the sometimes horrendously complex issues and come out with, as you say, often an elegant, clever solution that hopefully meets the client's brief and and and budget. You know it's an incredibly complex thing that we do and it is not described in a picture on instagram yeah, yeah I mean I'll give you a.
Speaker 3:Really, this is another thing that sort of set me off.
Speaker 3:There was an article in the newspaper that was um, it was about a project that I worked on as a, as a, when I was working for studio pacific. It's a an amazing. It's an amazing. As the Herald article said, new Zealand Strong is building what is going to be the largest timber span structure in New Zealand, and it was a great story about what New Zealand Strong was and wasn't doing with the structure. It didn't even mention the architects. It didn't mention what we did or how we got there, or the incredible persistence and foresight of my boss, the way that he planned the project, the way he somehow managed to get timber technologies and Homestar rating into what is essentially a giant bubble.
Speaker 4:None of that story has been communicated, so I have to ask, though, like how or when did this kind of become an issue? Like how did we kind of get to this, into this position to begin with, or has it kind of always been like this? And and are there things that we can do, or, you know, should we just be relying on the nzia to kind of get us, get us out of this hole, so to speak?
Speaker 3:well, I think another one of the issues with relying on pictures is that we're, you know, we're not just communicating the stuff that we do actually bring to the table, but we're also reinforcing this idea that we're only interested in the frilly bits or the bits that look good on pictures.
Speaker 3:so like that's what I mean about it doing sort of double duty for us. Like some of the comments I got when I wrote in the bulletin was we're worried clients won't come to us because we're perceived as cool and expensive. They spend a lot of time justifying Too late for that.
Speaker 3:I guess we're seen as generators of risk, not problem solvers, strategists or governors. So you know, nothing we are doing out there is enforcing the value that we bring in, and I think you know, like why is that that? I mean, I know from my previous experience of trying to talk to people about this is that there is a general sense that to be a professional, you're not supposed to market yourself like don't, do we want to talk about ourselves like a bar of chocolate. You know, personally, personally, I think we do. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I agree Absolutely. I mean it's interesting.
Speaker 2:Delicious, delicious chocolate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, we're going through a brand re-strategization at the moment and we've brought in an external person to help us with that, because we can't do it ourselves. I think, and I think it's intrinsic in the profession that we've sort of been uh like I don't know, tamped out, or you know, we've been not necessarily told not to put yourselves out there, but it is, and I spoke to this in the first episode of this season. It's the tall poppy syndrome of new zealand. You know, don't stand too high, you'll get cut down. But I think we should all be pushing ourselves up, you know, and there is no reason why we can't market ourselves like anybody anyone else does well, we're running businesses, service-based businesses, at the end of the day.
Speaker 4:So I mean, look at, look at any other industry all they do is they spend so much time, effort and money on marketing everything. Everything is marketing awareness. It's crazy that any kind of firm out there wouldn't do the same.
Speaker 1:Do you think it's a fear of the code of ethics? Lisa, that's something that I've always returned to, and I kind of feel like that may be one of the causes.
Speaker 3:I hadn't thought about that actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not being allowed to sell yourself, not being able to sell a service that you can't deliver, or something there's like no, but that's you know your own competency so yeah you're selling, selling what you're competently able to achieve, I know, but I think the code of ethics is ambiguous enough that it freaks people out because they wonder where the line is if you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:I emailed.
Speaker 3:That's crazy years ago I'm thinking back to a lecture that miles warren gave when I was at architecture school and and someone asked a question that puts my asian context. But he asked a question, um, at the end of it, oh you, how did you grow your business? You know, Sir Miles? And he went oh, you know, just, you know, it grew organically. I did my auntie's garage and it grew from there. And my friend, who'd come from the Otago Council as a water engineer, leaned over and he said are you kidding me? When their book came out, the first thing it did landed on the desks of every you know engineer working for a council in New Zealand on the desks of every you know engineer working for a council in new zealand as manifesto.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's this sort of gentility over the top of it, or that we don't want to be hilarious something like that and I talked to a friend a friend and a client who's a branding expert and he he had a crack at the nz day about 10 years ago, I think, talking to them about communicating value, because he was showing me at the time there was an advertising campaign in Home Magazine and he was like going Lisa, you're preaching to the converted, it's a waste of time and money and it was a really wishy-washy campaign as well. So he was kind of trying to argue that they should be communicating value and of course they thought that that was grubby. So these are the shoes they were up against.
Speaker 3:And then I think you know, like we are collective but we are in competition with each other, and so I think a lot of architects, you know, I think a lot of architects, I think we, I think I personally think we would be stronger together. And I see that in the SPG thing, Like, since we started the SPGs it's, you know, it's really great to have people that you can rely on. I mean, the other issue is that we're a wide church, so there's a lot of diverse voices, and it has been explained to me that one of the reasons the NZAA don't say very much is for fear of annoying somebody. So if you say, you know, do something about climate change, someone else is going to go. Why are you saying that?
Speaker 1:I don't know, but that's so tame and I think that sort of for me that sort of response is from someone or from an entity that is large, basically, and they don't need the NZIA to support them, they don't need that kind of.
Speaker 3:No, but that's the NZIA's position. Yeah, because it's a member-driven society, right? You don't want to be sort of annoying a lot of your members. But I also feel like the biggest voices.
Speaker 1:Yeah but, I, also feel like the biggest entities in the room are going to be the ones that will control that narrative, because they don't necessarily need them. Then they'll be like well, you guys just keep doing what you do because it's fine by us, Whereas our smaller entities are like actually, we really need you guys to help uplift us, promote us a bit better.
Speaker 3:So you've hit the nail on the head right. My other reason is that we're all too bloody busy trying to run like this. Being an architect, being responsible for everything that I do, like the like, the multitude of things I think about and do in one day like it's hard. It's hard work. Being an architect and running a practice is hard work, like having the headspace to think about any of this stuff just so hard. So you know, when I try and engage people about it, the response is just not it's positive but it's. You know emails to me saying hey, you've raised some great points, good luck.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, that's why we're happy to have you here, because we can kind of try and get this out a little bit more, get some momentum behind it.
Speaker 3:Here's a question for you guys. Did you vote in the special general meeting on Wednesday? I did not. Here's a question for you guys. Did you vote in the special general meeting on Wednesday?
Speaker 2:I did not this, the NZIA Mm-hmm. I stopped paying for NZIA a few years ago.
Speaker 3:This is one of the other things that's driven me into frenzy of activity. Yeah, yeah. So we had the opportunity to address the structure of the nza and to think about governance, and smaller practices were not heard in. That I don't think. Well, didn't show up. Should I put it that way? Yeah, to be fair I don't know that, but I embarrassingly you're sort of saying, hey guys, why don't you pay attention?
Speaker 1:well, totally, and that's a fair comment. But back to your point before, interestingly, I didn't vote, but also I consciously didn't vote because I didn't have the time. You know, I didn't really have the time to put everything else aside and to focus on this other thing which, ultimately, I'm like it's important, probably for me to have my voice, but at the end of the day, like, is it going to be heard? Probably not. What's the point?
Speaker 3:well, it literally was, so it will be heard. I mean, it's like exactly the same if I hadn't put my head up over the parapet, like I saw those emails coming in saying oh, we're going on a road show, we're talking about the constitution I thought good god, like I need to focus on that.
Speaker 3:Like a hole in the head, um. So I completely ignored it, and I'm the first one to say that if I hadn't gotten engaged literally in the last four weeks, I would not have shown up for that vote. And it's not that complicated. There's a few documents to read on the website. We do need to address it legislatively. We need to lodge a constitution next year, and it's our choice. Do we want to take the advice of the people that we you know our fees have paid money to to give us advice? Do we want a board that you know that acts in our own best interest? So if we sat here talking about you know what we can do around. You know better decision-making.
Speaker 1:Well, maybe that's you know, something that we all do need to engage in we are sort of victims of our own um inaction sometimes, and I think that obviously speaks to your point now. But it's also, you know, the marketing point of view, the self-promotion point of view, the industry promotion point of view, like a lot of the time we are waiting for somebody else to solve the problem for us and we're not really willing to do it ourselves. And that's why it's good to have someone like yourself put your hand up and be like oh, come on, guys, let's, let's actually do something about this. And it does stimulate chatter. And you know, from your email, like you said, it's gone to, went to sam zondag and therefore went to gerard, and now it's come to this. You know um forum and I've passed it on to a lot of people and you know that's the snowball that starts to gather momentum, so hopefully it continues to do so.
Speaker 3:I actually wonder, talking to people where the part of the problem is comes down to the sort of inherent hierarchies. And now in our profession I don't know what it was like for you guys, but when I went to architecture school, there was a very clear hierarchies communicated to us in terms of design versus anything practical. So it didn't matter if marketing, detailing, waterproofing, buildings, those things were not nearly as important as designing. And then there was obviously kind of hierarchical structures in that around who the what do they call them star architects were. And I just wonder whether a lot of us who pay fees to the NZIA don't actually feel like we belong to the club.
Speaker 3:You know, like maybe it's a club that we pay for but we don't belong to, to or don't feel like we have the right to belong, and I think that's one of the things that that award gives me is the right to say well, you know, gary thought I belonged. Okay, what's the kind of gave me the medal, you know, so I don't. Maybe I just I've dropped that. Um, you know that that sort of fear that I didn't belong or whatever, that insecurity or that inferiority, complex or whatever.
Speaker 1:I agree very much with what you just said, lisa, and we unfortunately won a local award last year and that validation from the NZIA does make you feel like you can sort of be a bit more outspoken. But there's so many of us that either like even yourself, gerard, that you know either don't engage with the NZIA or don't engage with the awards programs, or you know we're working isolated a solo. There's so many soul practitioners out there, or one or two people bands, that you know their voices also need to be heard in some capacity and I think, yeah, you're right, that hierarchical fear maybe of of speaking out is is a real problem what I think happen if we don't, if the small practices don't sort of claim our voice.
Speaker 3:We will be overtaken by the large practices. We're not overtaken, but they're the ones with the resources and the mana and the position and the drive to have a voice. If we don't stand up and fight for it, we won't. The voice of Sam talking about how she needs to write a booklet to explain to her clients, with a $400,000 budget, why they should pay a little bit extra for her they're not going to be hurt.
Speaker 2:Is it a marketing issue, though? Could the issue be solved with marketing versus going via the NZIA? Independent marketing yeah, independent marketing. I used to think you weren't allowed to market at all, but I saw um waramani having, uh, phantom billboard posters all around wellington, and I did some mock-ups of my own sort of phantom billboard posters a few years ago, and then I never followed through with it. Cool, bring them back, but something like that is a way of phantom billboards. Aren't that expensive? Like, for 500 bucks, you can get quite a few billboards around town for a week or so. That's the bottom end of the.
Speaker 3:That's my list of ideas.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Gerard. We're all going to have a big billboard at the Wazoo now.
Speaker 2:I think it's something worth considering, because how else do you get your name out there Instagram, like you say, people scroll past pictures so quickly now and if you don't have a really nice, succinct, beautifully crafted video which creates a story, like at least, I really do like that NZIA video. I watched your one and that's like a perfect little video. It's like a minute and a half or something.
Speaker 3:Simon Wilson.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it kind of captured who you are as a person. So then there's like this likability of you as a person. So then like that's a big thing, I think, for any human engagement. So something like that is such a powerful communication tool I talked about the jury service.
Speaker 3:Before you get, you jump into a car with a bunch of like maybe four, three or four other architects and you're reminded you've never met and you're reminded you know what a smart, funny, interesting bunch of people we are. You're not communicating that at all except to other architects.
Speaker 4:Now, we're really good at that.
Speaker 3:Think about our work. We're too busy talking to each other. We're not talking to people that we should be talking to that's the thing they're interested in that, that's so it's.
Speaker 4:The interesting thing is for me, like nziak institute of architects I only use it for like a, you know. Okay, there's like network events, let's. Let's talk about what nzi does right brings architects together, probably brings a few other interested parties, but predominantly architects, and then, you know, there's a lot of social gatherings and that sort of thing. There's education, so tutorials and that sort of thing, but I never even really saw the nzia as the people that should be selling the profession to other than like the awards ceremony which is, in a weird way, only selling to architects.
Speaker 4:Once again, yeah, you don't even see it as a profession that's meant to be selling architecture to non-architects, I guess to the general public. Or is that just me, you know, because I am in the industry, and that's just how I feel it.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure I think you won't have haven't seen that, ben, because they don't do it, and I think, to sum it, to sum it up basically, but also I think I think they hit. They certainly have a role to play, but I think we all have a role to play as well. And this goes back to gerard's point on marketing, like we also need to market ourselves better and I think us as small practices, which all of us are, we can do so much. But I also think something we haven't touched on is there's bigger practices in the country as well. There's huge entities that have a huge amount of sway in the built environment that I also don't think, that a lot of the time is self-satisfying and aren't necessarily looking to uplift their profession as a whole. I'm sure about that, you don't reckon.
Speaker 3:No, well, I'm not convinced about that. No, I mean one of the most thoughtful responses I had to my. So before I wrote the bulletin, I just basically thought of every architect I could think of, wrote a letter to them and said you know, give me some feedback. Yeah, yeah, the most thoughtful responses I got was from John Coop, who's the managing director of Warren Armani, and I thought that his approach was totally. You know, he was. I mean, it seems I don't know this for sure, but looking from a distance it looks a lot like he did a lot of very smart things to lift up the, you know, up the practice of Warren Arnie and he is offering that sort of perspective to the profession.
Speaker 1:I mean I'm happy to be put in my place in that statement, which is good to hear.
Speaker 3:I mean again, we're not talking enough with each other, right?
Speaker 3:I had no interest at all with John, but I haven't spoken to him for years. What did he say? We are seen as generators of risk, not problem solvers, strategists or governors. So his argument is that every business with a campus should have an architect on its board, but none of them do so. He's a director on a board, but he's the only one I've ever heard of Right. Director of a on a board, but he's the only one I've ever heard of right. So engineers, lawyers, accountants take on directorships, but architects don't. And at the point that he's making as well, putting pictures of batches on instagram is not going to give us any power in the world. We need you know we need if we want change from his perspective, which is obviously a lot more business savvy than mine, so we need to be in positions of power.
Speaker 1:Kirsten Thompson touched on this expertly in her cold metal lecture last year or Fortuna series lecture last year, and spoke to the role of the architect and architectural advocacy in Australia and how much not necessarily power, no power, I guess that they do have, and how their opinions are respected. I think that is. Another issue that we have is that you're right, there aren't architects in any positions of decision-making. We don't have a government architect or we don't necessarily have architects on urban panel review boards, boards or just like to your point, and you know those sort of facilities where you need design input, professional design input, not necessarily someone who's looking at it from a financial or a structural or infrastructural lens. You know and I don't know how, I don't know how you change that, but yeah, I mean if anybody wants to look for it.
Speaker 3:We get to face that to our responsibility. Like I think it's our fault and, honestly, like I think I tried to communicate, I do think it's an existential issue.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You look at what's happening out there, you know in the last 10 years I've been practicing, the prices go up every year. You know like it's harder. The first house.
Speaker 3:I did three bedroom house in avondale for 97 000. Well done, yeah, like either. So that was a moment, um. You know like it's so much harder to practice and where are we going to end up. You know what's the logical conclusion of where we're going? Fewer and fewer architects doing houses for people who are making money without us, while we wait patiently, like lapdogs, waiting for them to come to us with their dirty money.
Speaker 2:Please call me.
Speaker 3:We've been involved in making Pick me and then spend it on really expensive details. Is that what we want as a profession, or do we want to pull together collectively and fight for something more for a seat at the table?
Speaker 2:I liked your note in there increasing obsolescence, and I kind of wonder has that been happening for a long time? I feel like when you're studying for your registration or something, often it's risk aversion. The right answer in your case, study exam, is always avoid risk. But I feel like that's all-encompassing and it's covered everything. And so when no longer urban designers or you remove yourself from the puzzle and bring in a consultant or something, you're no longer the planner, your own planner. So it's like a fragmentation of your job and I feel like that's not overly helpful. I remember a lecture by Joseph Rasmus Prince of Rex Architects talking about agency and architects consistently trying to avoid risk and then wondering why they're being left out of all the decision making and why the why the contractor has all the power. So it's like how is the solution? To be more in the room, ultimately to take on more risk?
Speaker 4:I mean developers.
Speaker 2:Take all the risk and and they have a seat at the table, I guess, as as a result.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you make a very valid point, gerard and I think we as a profession are terrified of liability, but we are highly trained, we're good at what we do, we know we're good at what we do, we have exorbitant amounts on insurance to cover our backs if we do make a mistake, but we never, ever, put any of it into play. You know, and I think you're right, I think it is it's been a growing obsolescence, because of fear, in my opinion. But then again, anytime you try and break out of that mold or that established mold of today, you're often pulled back down, told to rein your head in, cut down by council, maybe, you know, cut down by a compliance pathway or things like that, and so you just sort of you often, and again this goes back to the point of how busy we are you take an easier route because you don't have the time or sometimes the energy to solve the problem.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I've certainly had lots of conversations around risk and the effect that it's had on the industry, but not in the last kind of five or so years. I mean there was a time, especially amongst female architects, there was a lot of discussion around risk, like I'm not sure that that's the biggest problem we face. I think it's more about value, like maybe valuing ourselves and communicating our value better and just being a little bit less focused on the product, a little bit more on the service. But yeah, I think you know the NZAA is there to you know. Well, it's what we've got right. It's our industry body, so it's going to do what we ask it to do Like.
Speaker 3:So there's a strategic plan from 2024. And if you look at it, there's lots of nice words about support, public education and awareness campaign on the value of architects, registration and professional standards, deliver campaigns to highlight the value and contribution of members, work to Aotearoa, new Zealand, community communities and environment. Well, that was quarter one, two and three of last year. That was the action plan. So I mean we need to do more than you know, write action plans.
Speaker 3:Yeah we need to act. Also that's been a great thing is that you know like people are communicating, like if we want the NZIA to help us with this, then we do need to communicate it to them, because they are sort of, you know, in the process of trying to understand how to grapple with all this stuff as well. So one of the biggest issues is advocacy.
Speaker 3:So again, a dirty word. But do we want lobbyists? And down in wellington, and my, my argument is we absolutely do. You know we were completely sideswiped. What happened with the change of government? You know we were hit pretty hard as a profession and I think the things that the current government doesn't really understand, or is probably about to, is that with all the architects out of work in the next three months to a year, there are going to be fewer and fewer contractors in work, so that is going to have a palpable effect on their poll ratings and their ability to get re-elected and you you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out.
Speaker 1:No, not at all.
Speaker 3:You know we're not being heard. Do you know what I mean? And also, the other thing is, I'm just going to talk to you about some of this stuff. It's actually really important. Like you know, that thing about the protection for the term architect that's not off the table, is that the protection for the term architect that's not off the table? Is it still being floated? It's still out there in the world, it hasn't been squashed. So when you say, oh, you know we don't have time to think about this, you know, special general meeting and all this, it's like these are the issues at play. Like it's not enough. Do you know what I mean? Imagine if they took that away from us. The government, you know, fighting, cutting regulation at every corner. Have regard for architects. Like I do think, unfortunately, with all the other stuff going on that we are so stressed and worried and thinking about, we do have to pay a bit of attention to this stuff.
Speaker 1:The protection of the term architect, I think, is a particularly important one. One thing that frustrates me in new zealand in particular and you see the adverse internationally is that I don't like to say this, but we are not needed. Necessarily we should be, but ultimately you can build in new zealand code compliant buildings without the need of an architect, and that is to me.
Speaker 3:I think that's a problem, because you end up with a incredibly basic, unimaginative average built environment you ask the people in your neighborhood do you want your child going to school in a prefab or do you want them going to school in an architecturally designed building? An easy question, right?
Speaker 1:it's not a difficult question an easy question, but I think that's the problem is that our position's not held in a high enough regard, that we are the be-all and end-all from a design perspective, and I think we should be, because we're trained to be, but there's so many other little side professions that can still impact the built environment without the need of us, and I think that's for me that's a key issue. Um, and even to the point of consenting I know this has been talked about in the past and everything but like this could be a mechanism for us to, and there's risk involved in this. But you know, like self-review, you know engineers do it through the peer review system like why, why couldn't we? And that's that kind of like puts us our standing on a higher regard I'll tell you one thing that would be useful.
Speaker 3:A lot of architects see planners as as a block, and you know I I see them as if architects and planners worked to get together for the betterment of our communities, we would be stronger come. The company that I worked for in london had a thriving practice based on a reputation for getting things through planning. Planning is difficult to achieve in london.
Speaker 3:You have to do a good job you have a nice you know building that's going to last the distance, to get planning. So you know, like a lot of, there's a lot of these kind of hierarchies in play that are just not working that well for us, or dichotomies going back to that, you know, would you prefer an architecturally designed building question?
Speaker 4:one thing that we've commonly talked about on this podcast is I just I don't actually believe their answer is as clear as black and white as you think it is. I think that there's so many people with not you know, like I would say, bad taste, but or let's just say, like not our kind of, or not with a similar kind of taste or aesthetic as us, that they're quite happy just living in some of those more cookie cutter type apologies, or that sort of thing. So I think, yeah, I think like there's definitely, and that may be because there's just not enough architecturally designed houses out there to compare to. So maybe, like it's just, we've just gone a full circle and it comes back to awareness of actually, well, what is well designed versus what isn't and people being able to actually differentiate, because, yeah, I'm just not convinced that everyone wants to live in an architecturally designed house at this point in time.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying that everything needs to be bespoke. I just think that our role, as let's call it like chief overseer of the built environment, should be more prominent. And you can still deliver those cookie-cutter solutions, but we're still the head of the snake.
Speaker 3:Where I'm at is that you know, don't whinge about things we can't control. Focus on what we can control. Good point.
Speaker 2:But you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, we can't do anything about. Like a friend of mine from Europe was complaining 20 years ago that New Zealanders aren't taught visual appreciation, all the stuff that she learned through her osmosis in Portugal or whatever we don't have it. We can talk about all that stuff, but we're not going to be able to solve that problem. Yeah, very very, and I honestly think like yeah, it's very tempting to blame a whole lot of other stuff, but I honestly think we have to start looking at ourselves. You know, what can we do?
Speaker 4:What can we do better?
Speaker 2:You know seeing ourselves as a group of people and seeing worth and communicating that value is something that we can do, something that we can ask our profession as a body to do, know as a body to do, yeah, and kind of doing practices. Yeah, it kind of comes full circle all the way back to how we started about advocacy and marketing and getting getting the word out there, kind of reminded of like how um vocal like frank lloyd wright was back in the day. He'd be on tv every chance he'd get and extremely opinionated and talking about utopian architecture and yeah ebjorn said you could always rely on ath.
Speaker 3:You know, give a pithy quote, it would be generous to other architects, it wouldn't be specific about him and that's one of the things on the list of you know, if we want to sort of turn to things, we can do. That was one of the things on the list of you know, if we want to sort of turn to things, we can do, that was one of the things on the list. Is that? Okay, we all have different ideas. Well, maybe the new communication guy at the NZIA, maybe he could develop or we could send him in you know, a sort of a spreadsheet of people who you know. Well, you know my name's Lisa Webb and I'm interested and capable on talking on these. You know three issues here we all are and capable in talking on these. You know three issues here we all are. But you know he doesn't, he's only just started, he doesn't know anything about us or who we should go to and we're probably not going to tell him.
Speaker 3:You know there could be a list. You know we could just say, okay, we all have different ideas, but you know, let's make a list of people that could. So at least you have something out there rather than nothing Like. Make a list of people that could. So at least you have something out there rather than nothing Like. That is something that we could. You know that we could be better at. We could get quotes from architects. I don't know if anyone reads the paper anymore, but you know we could get quotes from architects in the paper and we could get more publicity.
Speaker 4:Testimonials yeah, Just sounds like positive easy marketing to me. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the airtime thing. Airtime thing's really interesting, lisa, and way back start of the pod you talked about when you, when your house, won, um, the nza nathfield award for housing, like that in the video, and you're still reaping the benefits of the video, like, I think, airtime, visual, airtime of architects be, be that opinion, be that projects, be that stories, be that narrative. I think that is an easy mechanism for us to better get our skills, our profession, across to the wider public.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the other one. I did a project for some people I knew in the neighborhood and have become my friends Louise McGill and Gordon Harcourt. Gordon used to be the presenter on Fair Goat.
Speaker 1:I've seen that one as well. I saw that video.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there were parts of that project where he was white-knuckling, you know, because he'd seen all the bad stories firsthand. You know he had the bloody noses to sort of prove it. But at the end of, yeah, he presented to the contractor and I that video that he'd made. You know, it's an incredibly generous thing to do and I was talking to him about it on the weekend and you know he's up for telling stories about, you know, contributing his voice to what architects can do. And I talked to Mark Abbott as well, the interim chief executive. They're talking about going and um with a videographer taking snippets at the local awards of clients. You know, like every one of us would have clients saying nice things about stuff, you know yeah and those stories are far more resonant to me than a than I mean.
Speaker 3:This is again, I don't want it to make it sound like I'm not interested in design. Of course I am, and I want things to be beautiful, and that's what I'm trying to say is they don't have to be one or the other.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's the same thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Architecture shared and for people.
Speaker 3:It's more complex than you see in a picture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, People are infinitely more important, I think in the story.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a key point, Gerard, and this is where the narrative becomes so important. You know, it's lovely to watch a local project video, but it's very tailored, it's very clean. There's not necessarily a lot of reality to it, and I think we're the real success in terms of not necessarily selling the product, as in the final building, but the actual profession, what we do as architects and what the result of what we do is, is that story. It's the real people's responses, it's the client's joy at the end of it. It's the way that, like you said, you transform that teacher's life in the way that they interact with their school. I mean, that's the real key, I think, in terms of trying to sell what we do. They're really beautiful stories as well.
Speaker 3:Blind and Tears the other day. I feel you know you're listening to me. I feel that, yeah, these are nice things to have out there in the world.
Speaker 1:I had that the other day in a concept design meeting and it sort of took me aback. I was like, oh, I'm glad that I've done the right thing, but I don't really know what to say.
Speaker 3:But again, that's another skill that good architects have is the ability to listen and hear what people are saying and interpret in a way that they weren't expecting. That's exactly what we bring to the table. There's another really good idea I had from a guy called Ren Zhijian, whose I think his practice is called Percept Studio. So I'd not heard, I hadn't heard from him before and probably the NZIA had data, but he had a really great idea, I thought, and that's a video that describes the process. So he was saying when he has clients and they want to know how building works, he sends them to these YouTube videos that builders have made, which I lasted about five minutes. Was I okay Enough with the wheelbarrow? But you know, like that's a really that's actually a really good idea and goes to that point we were talking about before around Sam's conundrum.
Speaker 3:You know a good way to explain to people and you know when you start, especially when you're starting out and a lot of people haven't used your clients, haven't used an architect before and there's a lot of anxiety and all that.
Speaker 3:You know you can explain, you know how the process works and maybe communicate why you know it's worth an architect there to help you if you're an architect there to help you. You know like, even at my you know like, because I've sort of seen it all like when you're starting out it's so hard to communicate your value and then you get, you know, you win an award and all of a sudden people start going, oh, maybe she doesn't know what she's talking about, and it becomes easier, right, but you still have to deal with, you know, these preconceptions, like. You know, oh, we'll get a QS to manage the money because architects can't deal with money which infuriates me because I'm very particular about money and a sort of obsessive controller of trade summary sheets and all that sort of stuff. So we're still fighting our corner on all that stuff and those kinds of preconceptions that we don't know anything about. Money is one of the things that really drives me out the wall and I'd really like not to get holed up at a party again about that.
Speaker 1:I think that's one of them, but there's many preconceptions about us which need to be debunked or at least explained.
Speaker 3:This is what we're not doing with the Instagram picture strategy. So this is the problem. Hopefully, the NZA are talking about getting a PR person on board as well, so obviously we don't know how to do any of this, so it's up to us. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Okay, I think that's a great idea. Yeah, I think that's… I liked your comment about you know running it more as a business, for sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I think my friend the branding advisor. He sort of basically says when we work with Whittaker's, the argument is why would you pay more for a bar of Whittaker's chocolate than a bar of Cadbury's chocolate? And I just, I don't think architecture is that different, like you know. Why would you pay for us?
Speaker 1:It's such a great analogy because I will pay more for a Whittaker's chocolate bar every time, yeah, or for a Whittaker's chocolate bar every time. Yeah, market positioning it's quality, and then it's the emotion that it gives you. I feel so much more satisfied with good chocolate than I do with gritty, over-sugared generic chocolate.
Speaker 2:I know we're getting late in the conversation but on the Whittaker's chat, celebrity endorsement might be one. There's a very young New Zealand motocross rider who's getting very big in the United States at the moment who's a very big Whitaker's fan and always talks about it in his post-race interviews Nice, you hear it in these podcasts people in America trying to track down Whitaker's. That reminds me of Richie McCaw's Total Span video. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, see all of those guys do it.
Speaker 1:Should we get Richie McCaw to champion? Yeah?
Speaker 2:No, somebody design Richie House.
Speaker 3:One of the comments that was made was around a PR strategy that just would have relationships with social media influences and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:It's funny, though we sort of roll our eyes a little bit at it, but it does have reach, there's meat there. There is meat there, and that is the world we live in.
Speaker 2:I've seen a video of somebody giving a personal tour of a real beautiful mid-century house in the States. Those videos are pretty captivating. I'm just an absolute sucker for giving a personal tour of like a real beautiful mid-century house in the states and like. Those videos are pretty captivating and I'm just an absolute sucker for are you going back to ice?
Speaker 4:ice cube. I mean, ice cube's the biggest advocate. Yeah, he's who we need. But yeah, also the arcy marathon guys who have had on the pod.
Speaker 1:I'm like becoming more and more addicted to watching their videos because just love the storytelling and, once again, and just the general banter, I guess I think something that they do well is they make it architecturally nerdy enough that we as professionals get off on it, but they also make it like jovial and sort of awkward and like common enough that regular viewers will also really enjoy it yeah, they describe it very well, they do do you have any closing thoughts lesser?
Speaker 3:I just I I feel I feel like a reluctant cheerleader. I'm somebody who's never really been involved in anything sort of organized in my life. I remember my mum saying to me once when I was a kid you know, whenever you get a group of people together and try and get a decision, it doesn't matter if it's a PTA or a Bloomin' Sunday School, you know committee or I don't know the Board of Fletchers or whatever there's always. You know difficulties, making decisions and finding ways forward and, like you know, basically why would you want that so? But I sort of feel like we have to get involved.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, we're happy to be here cheerleading with you as well, so I hope you're not.
Speaker 3:But there's going to be another vote coming up, I hope, so we are going to have a president.
Speaker 4:Call to action. Call to action.
Speaker 3:Lisa does not want to be president.
Speaker 1:But at least vote people, myself included, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Educate what's involved. So like, for example, you brought up the Australian model, they have a board structured with outside board members. So they have adopted the. As I understand it I obviously don't know this for a fact, but as I understand it they are structured in a way that we were trying to structure ourselves. So, you know, what I hear from Mark Abbott is that obviously the chief executive role is up, so he's an interim chief executive. The chief executive role is coming up and, like, I'm interested in you know who we're going to get and what skills are they going to bring to the table, because it really does need someone who's capable of navigating all these sort of complex issues.
Speaker 3:Um, and then the other one is I think there's a president-elect coming up. Yeah, yeah, everyone put their thumb on their forehead or whatever it is to avoid that one. And then the other one is the branch members. You know, around New Zealand there are I don't know the structure of it even, but you know the branch members are coming up for re-voting. But, again, if you want these kinds of issues addressed, then communicate that to your, to your, to your local board rep yeah, or get involved yourselves if you've somehow magicked up some spare time I mean just sorry off the podcast, but just as an aside, like we do, like that is.
Speaker 3:One of the things is that we do have to address the governance structure and, like I don't know how many times, to say to people like we really do need to get engaged on that front and, like I said all before the vote, how do we get people interested in really boring stuff like reading about governance structures, like they've got a nice diagram on the website, like all you have to do diagram it's gonna make it easy as little amount of clicks as possible, because I actually read that bulletin and I thought to myself I really should go on the website and see what they're talking about yeah
Speaker 3:well, we, we have an opportunity like we've got a choice right. Either we have um, we have a lot of representatives sitting around the table more than the number I understand has been advised leads to a successful outcome. So if you get too many people sitting around the table talking about stuff, you're there six weeks later. Do you know what I'm?
Speaker 4:saying should be sending it all of that stuff out in those bulletins, instead of saying like, hey, we're going to meet about this, go to the website, just get it in there, I don't know where to read it if it was on in the news.
Speaker 3:But they've been emailing and we were ignoring it like, literally, I saw them roadshed really town like yeah whatever, but I think that's the issue with the bulletins as well.
Speaker 1:I don't know about you guys, but they send them out on Friday afternoon.
Speaker 2:The last thing I want to do is open a bloody email on a Friday afternoon. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:Send it to me on a Monday morning. It'll sit in my, like. I'll be like that's interesting. I'll star that email all week looking at me and by Friday afternoon. I'm so irritated looking at that email. I will address it, but if you send it to me on a Friday afternoon, I'll open it and I'll go delete.
Speaker 3:I'm leaving, sorry. Maybe we should change the time Exactly. That's an easy win and some good ideas for the bulletin as well in terms of how we talk to each other a bit more interesting, like show work on the boards, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, the structures are really not great. Like there was an email saying issue come to the Auckland board meeting now or whatever tomorrow night at this bar or whatever. And I raced across town, I told my husband to cook dinner and I got there and it was a bunch of people standing around drinking free drinks in a bar, like talking about nothing, and they had bits of white paper on on the bar tables going oh, write an idea. And it was like, oh, have a architectural walk around the city, or whatever. I was like, oh my god, you know, it's just like. That is not an effective, that is not effective way to move forward.
Speaker 4:Don't put that in the podcast, though, because that's too negative uplift, uplift yeah, I did see one come through the other day about a meet-up at the Rimuru golf course and I was like, oh yeah, ben's here, but I would 100% just be going to play golf.
Speaker 3:Well, go Ben Talk to people, yeah Do it. You know, I just couldn't imagine anything worse.
Speaker 1:you know, I just couldn't imagine anything worse?
Speaker 4:uh, amazingly so.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much for coming on and thanks so much and um, we will continue all to keep advocating for architecture in new zealand and we'll keep pushing positivity, the positive vibes.
Speaker 3:I think we need to act collectively. That's what I would say if we want to get where we want to go. Thank you, awesome, nice chatting, thank you.
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