The NZIA: Supporting The Value Of Architects

Architects shape how we live, move, and feel in our towns and cities, yet they’re often missing from the public conversation when housing, infrastructure, and the built environment hit the headlines. We’re joined by Mark Abbott (Chief Executive, New Zealand Institute of Architects) and Kevin Ptak (Manager of Marketing and Communications, NZIA) to unpack what the NZIA is doing to speak with a single, clearer voice and put architects back in front of the public.

We talk candidly about why the profession can come across as introverted, how “architectural discourse” can get in the way of real-world understanding, and why the message needs to land in everyday terms: comfort, warmth, light, smarter layouts, better streets, stronger communities, and projects that run with less pain. We also dig into the cost versus value trap, including the reality that only a small slice of residential builds involve a registered architect, and what changes when an architect is brought in early with a clear brief and honest budget guidance.

Kevin shares how client interviews and richer video storytelling from the NZIA awards programme are creating stronger proof points, while Mark outlines a more proactive advocacy approach that includes better media relationships and cross-party engagement on housing and construction issues. We also preview the InSitU conference in Auckland, with international perspectives, built environment voices, and selected sessions recorded for people who can’t make it in person, plus a listener giveaway to top it off.

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Transcript

Why This NZIA Follow-Up Matters

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Ever since our episode last season with Lisa Webb around advocacy for architects, I've been wanting to have a follow-up chat with the NZIA about what they're doing for the profession. Fortunately, I ran into Mark Abbott, the chief executive of the NZIA at the award Southern Awards down in Dunedin, and he was gracious enough to agree to jump on the podcast and have a chat. He, along with Kevin Patak, the manager of marketing communications at the NZIA, joined me today to have a chat about what the institute is doing for architects, how they are looking to speak with a single voice and promoting the role of the architect in New Zealand and putting us in front of the public eye so that there's a better understanding of what we do and how we can better the built environment. It's a great conversation. We go from everywhere from advocacy to support and also touch on the upcoming Insitu conference in Auckland in September. Make sure you guys listen through to the very end for a little sneaky giveaway. Thanks again for all your support. It's great to have you listening. Hope you enjoy this episode. We're looking forward to seeing you at InSitU. Thanks for joining me today, guys. It's a conversation that I've been wanting to have for a while now with the NZIA, particularly in response to uh episode last year with Lisa Webb about her open her open letter about advocacy. And it has been a hot topic for quite a while now within the community. But I know that the it's been quite a few changes in the NZIA. Even in that short year, years time frame, Kevin, yourself, your role becoming a more prominent thing, and Mark yourself becoming more entrenched as well. And the interesting thing is that, correct me if I'm wrong, but neither of you are from an architectural background. Yeah, that's absolutely right. Having those people that are not architects helping bring architecture forward, I think is quite an interesting jumping-off point in particular because I feel like we as architects suffer from what's the word I'm looking for?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Introversion. Introversion.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

We do suffer from a little bit of have you noticed that? I've noticed it, certainly. We do suffer from a bit of introversion within the profession, and I think that is evident in just the way that we have presented ourselves and and kind of do still present ourselves a little bit out there in the market. So it'd be interesting to get your guys' take from the one, your n your positions in the NZIA now and and and also your positions as non-architects as well.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

And you're right, and there's there's been a lot of change in that period of time. I mean, certainly I've come on to my role in the last 18 months, and and Mark's been around for a little bit longer, but he was officially, of course, appointed as as CE around this time last year. He's no longer an intro. And I think that it it is an interesting opportunity to bring in some people from a non-architectural background and to bring some some fresh perspective. So I'll just give a bit of my my own background and

Fresh Eyes On An Introverted Profession

SPEAKER_03 3:00

how I came into this area. My background for those who haven't had a chance to meet me yet or I haven't had a chance to speak with yet is from a technology and startups background. So my actual title here is manager of marketing and communications here at the institute. But the the role that I have encompasses so much of the different touch points that members and non-members have with the institute, whether that's through our member communications, through our advocacy, through our public relations, our marketing, the conference coming up. Um, I'm really lucky, I think, in this role to have so many opportunities to engage with members, with the public, with our stakeholders, and talk about the work that the institute and our members undertake. But the background that I have is is from different PR agencies working in-house for different software startup companies, mostly high-tech and growth companies. And while that's not architecture, I have found that it does lend itself to architecture because they are parallel to me in some respects. There is an emphasis on innovation, on new ideas, on fresh thinking, and bringing that to the fore in the communications and marketing activities that we undertake.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Would you say there's also a com commonality in the sense that the general public, for all intents and purposes, have little to no understanding of what we really do? Or if they do, they have maybe a very formulated or prescribed idea of what we do rather than there being real reality to what we undertake. Quite a biased view.

SPEAKER_03 4:28

That's true. And and for them to understand the value of you what you do, you need to use language that resonates with your end audience. If I'm marketing software and technology and I'm speaking only in jargons, bits and bytes, or as you said, the printing industry, speeds and feeds, none of that is really relevant to the target audience. What does it do for them? What does it deliver? What value does it provide, and what does it add? And many of my previous clients were also consulting entities as well. So it was always about proving the value of services rendered, using case studies, demonstrating the value and the difference that those organizations were able to deliver to their end users. And I would also point out that while I don't have a specific background in architecture, I was very fortunate to come from a city in America which has a really rich architectural history in the city of Buffalo, which I'm endlessly proud of. One of the very few cities in the world with buildings by H. H. Richardson, Louis Sullivan. Frank Lloyd Wright built a multitude of homes in the city back when it was a boom town. And the city fell on some hard times over the years, and we we lost it architectural heritage and a depreciation for architecture, I think. Uh one of the Frank Lloyd Wright homes, the Darwin Martin House, sat abandoned and opened to the elements for almost 30 years. And then about 10, 15 years ago, the city of Buffalo sort of sat up straight and said, wait a minute. We have all of this wonderful architecture. We ought to do something with it. And the city has used that as a real point of civic pride. So many of those buildings have been renewed, revitalized, refreshed, have friends' groups associated with them. And now the city utilizes it as a real point of civic pride for tourism, and it's become a core part of Buffalo's identity. So I think that that unwittingly, perhaps I was, you know, brought up in this rich architectural environment that I didn't appreciate until I had a chance to step away from it. And now that I'm in this role, I can look at you know the tallest building in the city, our wonderful music hall, all built by you know significant architects. And I think I was really lucky to be able to draw on some of that coming into this role.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

It's interesting you say that, and we see where you're already completing us off on tangents. So sorry. But interesting that you say that you've kind of grown this appreciation, and I think that's something that I've always seen or you know, understood as an architect is that we have this rare opportunity in a professional capacity to touch on everybody's life, the way that they move and experience the built environment around them. And I think that is less understood or less appreciated by many people is that the way that you enter a building, the way that you move through it, the signage placing, the comfort you feel, you know, it's all been designed and engineered by someone. Often architects and the and and the best examples are are done by architects, and you often can't put your finger on on as to why something feels that certain way. And I feel like our voice has been lost a little bit. And that I've been pretty vocal, particularly in the media. They'll celebrate a building, they'll maybe celebrate the developer, maybe they'll celebrate the builder, but quite often the architect's forgotten. And I called out, I think it was QR magazine, they had a uh that a piece on the living path in Wellington, must have been last year. And it was around the time that we'd done this episode with Lisa, and I I kind of, you know, I called them out on social media about where's the mention of the architects, absolutely no mention of anybody from the design community that was involved. And, you know, the there's a resounding supportive response from the community, but nothing from the general public kind of saying, oh yeah, who did do that? So it'd be interesting to know what you guys are doing in that space uh to try and help push the the role of the architect forward, particularly in that media realm.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Yeah, I think it's always it's always natural to recognise and celebrate where we you actually see the delivery in many cases. So that's the construction side, that's the um, you know, that's the interior design, that's whatever it may be. And I think the challenge for us certainly is coalescing the value that architects bring through that whole process into a complete end-to-end delivery, you know, understanding that the architect has touched this project from conceptualization right through to delivery. And I think for too long our members, architects, registered architects and designers have been quite silent on that, possibly because they don't understand how

Explaining Architectural Value Without Jargon

SPEAKER_01 8:50

to articulate that other than to expect their design or their aesthetic to actually speak for itself in many cases. Um, you know, and certainly I see the challenge for us is a is around how we package up the value and the functionality and the form into a messaging system that goes to the general public, which is always going to be a big challenging because I suspect we are also, and I say we as a non-architect, but in that fraternity, we're also guilty of using language that's quite that doesn't resonate with the general public. Um, you know, we talk about architectural discourse and the diaspora of change and placemaking and place shaping and all these things that the architectural and design fraternity understand intuitively, because I think you grow up with it through university and you're probably experiencing that now, as opposed to the real world, which is how does this actually work? You know, do I what how do I actually feel when I move into my new home? You know, and it's about packaging that up in a language that our members, uh sorry, that the general public understand. I um I think though that there are a number of things working against us. One of them probably was even AI, and we'll probably touch on AI today. I did, I did run a report through an AI channel over the past week and said, you know, I'm this is what I'm looking for in terms of its audience and market. Please avoid the common things that I've always asked you to avoid. And uh there's only one, there were two words that were inserted back into that, back into that report, and they were almost underlined and underscored, and that was architectural discourse. And I thought, I thought, I don't even understand what architectural discourse is necessarily, you know, why and it's almost as if the world is conspiring against us to say, let's just keep this contained into this nice little insular bubble that we feel comfortable in. And I think, I think, boy, there's a huge challenge in adding a little bit of natural tension into the dialogue, you know, where architects are given license to actually talk about the value that they're bringing. And that value is, as I've said earlier, is wider and much more extensive than just the aesthetic. You know, it's the form, it's the function, it's the integration of services, it's the integration of community, it's everything that comes together in a way that uh only a very small number of like-minded professionals, and those are architects, can actually really fully understand intuitively. So the challenge is we move that intuitiveness into something which is much more uh easily able to be articulated. So, yes, we've got a we've got marketing, we've got a marketing challenge, we've got an advocacy challenge, we've got we've got a messaging challenge, we've got a visibility challenge. And importantly, we've got a challenge with relevance as well. You know, we look at we look at our contemporaries overseas, whether that's Reba or the Australian Institute, the Canadian Institute, their challenges are all the same. It's about it's about demonstrating relevance and value. And we package up the story in such a way that resonates with our potential clients. So, you know, we we understand, we understand almost immediately that um, you know, in the commercial space, that's relatively mostly straightforward because we expect our clients to have that understanding of the need, the drivers, the integrations. Sure. The opportunity though, boy, what a great opportunity if we look at the impact of say the residential build and the role that registered architects have played in that. Maybe five percent, five percent of residential builds actually have a registered architect to touch that design. And largely I think that's driven by this expectation and understanding that architectural delivery is beyond the realm. You know, it's beyond the reach of many people. And once we get to the point of it becoming quite uh second nature to talk about not just the cost aspect or part cost, because it's definitely about the value and how the role and function of an architect, the use of an architect, actually delivers much greater than the cost, you know, and that value is in things such as better site utilization, better space utilization, the light, you know, the use of services, the impact of um placement, for instance. And I see that in talking to uh the many attendees, client attendees at our award ceremony, that's what they describe it to me as. You know, I open the front door of my house and I smile every time I walk in.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Um, you know, my architect, I'd never talked to my architect about how much I loved reading, but she delivered a little library for me. You know, all of these tiny things that actually add value to the project and value to the delivery that we have been reluctant to talk about because we're always tend we always tend to be bombarded with the cost perspective and the cost conundrum.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

The cost one's a tri a tricky one, and you've touched on quite a few points there, Mark, that I was hoping to hit today. And the the first one that I just want to raise is around that, you know, your your comment about what is architectural discourse and and you know, our use of jargon or things around that nature. And I think a lot of that stems from the architect trying to preserve in a way our role as the preeminent profession within the building realm. And the risk, particularly, as you said, in the commercial sector, less so because those projects are far larger and they require that really highly specialized team. But in the residential sector, we do suffer from there being not suffer, but there are there are other avenues which people can can go down in which to achieve the ultimate goal, which is shelter and comfort to a degree. But it's taking it further beyond that. And I had this really interesting discussion with two interior designers for the podcast last week about that. The conversation of cost came up, and we were sort of saying, well, having an architect and an interior designer, an interior architect on a project seems like advice to have and and and only suitable for high budgets. We're sort of just having a conversation around where is the capacity for our involvement on any project. And we all agreed that the capacity is is there. There's there's the opportunity for us to be involved from any budget, be it a $20,000 renovation all the way through to a big multi-million dollar civic building or something. But okay, yes, ideally we offer that that full range of services concept through to completion. But even just having an architect involved through planning and design layout and understanding orientation, like you said, positioning and understanding how all the the more detailed intricacies which we're so well trained to do and inputting that back into the project can have a huge, huge upside and doesn't have to cost the earth, you know, like just having some level of involvement, I think, is is really interesting. And that leads me on to another point that I wanted to raise, and it's about having us as kind of the preeminent professionals having that more public voice, and we don't have that currently. We have, and you guys have have recently partnered with Kevin McLeod and Tim Ross with our podcast. Their whole content is designed to be delivered along with Kevin and obviously Grand Designs to the general public, and they can kind of get that understanding across. But what we don't have is we don't have architects offering professional advice in a wider sector. If you talk to somebody about health issues, you'll have doctors come and comment on that. If you talk to people about scientists or something about particular issues, you'll have you know premanent professionals come and talk about that. Housing issues or building and construction issues or civic issues, we very rarely have architects in the media or online or even through formats such as this making those comments or having those professional comments around that. Is that something that you guys are looking to work on?

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Stan, I I th I think you've you've touched

Getting Architects Heard In Public

SPEAKER_01 16:40

on a really critical point here. We have made a purposeful decision after being purposefully silent for so long, and and I think it's important to accept that. Purposefully silent for so long, and the basis of that is uh from a number of factors. One is I suspect as an institute and as an industry body, no one really likes to accept or be faced with criticism, whether it's warranted or whether it's not, and the ability to respond to that is often quite difficult. Um but we made a we've made a purposeful effort that the institute will have a voice, uh, will have a meaningful and relevant and dedicated voice on matters relating to the built environment, with a purpose that the institute and our members who are obviously aligned with that represent that voice and deliver that voice. So we're already seeing we're already seeing changes. We hosted at uh Build NZ at the Auckland Showgrounds close to a month ago this very topic where architects from around the country came to talk about the affordability of housing or the issues around housing development and the options around both involvement of architects and the architectural fraternity in delivering much better outcomes. And that's much more affordable outcomes, not just in the residential housing sector, but also in the civic and the health, social housing, education sector. We were fortunate that with that particular event, invited members from the five main political parties all attended. Some were fogged in and couldn't get to Auckland, but readily set delegates, which was really encouraging. And I think the opportunity to have those uh conversations were was really positive and encouraging, uh, to the point that uh we're still getting feedback from that and encouragement to repeat that again next year. And we will. So we're already framing up what the next year looks like and how we involve our architect members in that, in that um, I'm gonna say discourse, in that and I shouldn't, but in that, in that delivery. You know, this is about this is about demonstrating not just cost but value. Yes, we've uh we're partnered with and are partnering with a number of other channels, including our grand designs-ishness. And I think to that point, uh, we're doing that because it starts to challenge this current media delivery, which is we present programs on television which show this tension between build, it's dramatized, this natural tension and this real tension that that's cutting in, which says, my God, that's what a that's what a typical building project or delivery looks like to most people. Now, actually, it shouldn't look like that at all. You know, when we look at the outcomes for that, if they had involved an architect at the beginning to say, you know, here's a budget, here's the options, here's your site constraints, here's what's possible, here's what's not. Think about this from a project delivery point of view. All of those things go away. But that doesn't make good television. So we're in this, we're in this conundrum, which is sitting between what makes good television, which is natural tension and and and a few dust-ups, and actually how do we spin this whole dilemma, um, this marketing dilemma, marketing opportunity really, on its head, so that we actually get more architects involved in those conversations really early on, uh, and for the entirety of the project, not just for the little bits and slices that uh maybe their clients think that's all they need them for. So, you know, there's some really serious conversations that need to be had, and and I'll say brutal conversations, but in a positive way. You know, these are ones that you present to a client, and I've been a client, so I don't so I do understand the challenges, and sometimes I think I know more than my architect does. And the architects who have very politely pointed out, pointed that out to me, you know, and then demonstrated through their design process and through their conversations what it is that I can actually achieve through a spend that may not be to the level of the spend that I was actually imagining in the first place, is actually quite phenomenally. So those are the bits that I'm that we are trying to distill and then package up and send to the market in such a way that says this is possible.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

You're up against that, and I hugely applaud what you're looking to change and looking to do because what the architectural community, or I guess what the building community in general is is missing is real stories. Yes. And I think that's uh that's been a blight on the industry for quite a while. And yes, the dramatization of grand designs makes great television, but you know, they're always looking for projects where there's going to be headaches and difficulties because they want it to be engaging for an hour on television. We had a we ourselves had a project in line for grand designs and it got chopped on the cutting floor by the producer because they're basically like that's going too well. See, and that's that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

It's it's entertainment.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

It's entertainment in that.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

That's not that's the whole point. You're doing such a good job, which is what we want our general public to actually see. It doesn't have to be tension.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Yeah, and and but also on the flip side of that, I think there's also some some risk. And Kevin, your take on this being widely involved with the with the awards program. The risk of it in the past is that it's been the only real outlet of promotion for architecture in New Zealand. But it's promoting the best of the best, which is great, and they should be applauded and they, you know, they should be celebrated absolutely. But it's everything that's happening between that, you know, between the top and and the bottom that needs to be promoted and sold as well, and the stories that go along with that. And I will say that one thing that I've and I assume it's an initiative of yours, Kevin, that I've noticed this. Year, or last year and this year, both being an award recipient last year and then being the awards this year, is those sort of side interviews that you've done post-the awards being been granted, either with the architects or with the clients, not just about winning the award, but about the process of the project and getting that real feedback. And I found that to

Moving Past Awards Glamour Shots

SPEAKER_02 22:20

be quite interesting and engaging because you're getting like more of a real story about the project rather than just the pretty picture. Is that some a really conscious decision?

SPEAKER_03 22:28

It it was, and I consider that to be one of the real perks of the job. Last year we really undertook a method to increase our use of rich media and video storytelling through our YouTube presence, and that was really well uh received and we had great payback. But the stories that I've able to hear directly from the clients and the architects themselves are are fantastic, especially when they've you know just come off the stage having received the award, and you know, everyone is just having this moment where they appreciate what they've been able to achieve. But I always ask kind of the same list of questions for consistency's sake across the interviews. One of the ones that I ask the clients who I really enjoy having a chance to speak with at is it's why did you use an architect? Why did you make that choice? And those answers to that question are really, really interesting. But the answer to that question is also sometimes, well, I've used them before. Or this is we've done multiple projects together, and they've seen and understood the value and what an architect brings to a project like theirs. And those video clips have gone really well, not only to capture the excitement and the energy and and the events themselves, but we have been able to sort of slice those up to use them as individualized proof points through wheels and shorts and things like that to show that you know architecture is many things to many people. It can help them achieve the home of their dreams or a new place for their family, but it can also save them money sometimes. An architect doesn't have to be an added cost, it can help them find opportunities to reduce costs in the project. The difference that these make to communities. I've I've had mayors that stand in front of me and say that this project has made such a difference to my community and boosting civic pride. And uh, those are always really valuable engagements and really important for our marketing efforts overall, and to talk about the value of architects. And one of the things that we hear lots about is you know how great the project feels and the overall aesthetic of the project. But sometimes I'm also able to pull out the proof points, the evidence, the the numbers, the objective data for the difference that architecture can make. And that's something that we're really trying to build a better base of for our overall marketing and advocacy programs, is incidents where there are numbers and data and proof points that we can use to demonstrate the difference that architecture makes for clients, communities, and cities.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

And and on that, are you seeing like do you have any metrics or are you are you seeing whether that engagement, you're saying that you you've had really good engagement through you do you have any metrics around whether that engagement is within the architectural community or with the wider public or anything like that? Because I think that's always always been an issue as well, is that we look going back to what I said earlier is we're quite insular and everything kind of is cyclic within the community, the architectural community, but very little real information gets out. So it'd be interesting to know if you have kind of metrics around that.

SPEAKER_03 25:21

Yeah, sure. I'll give you three different areas that that we can look to looking at the data. So last year, when we had Craig Muller sit down and talk about the short list for the New Zealand Architecture Awards last year, we had at the time 3,200 views just announcing the short list, which is tremendous for that type of clip. Last year, over the Christmas break period, we saw Julie Stout's gold medal video achieve over 40,000 views. It went viral for reasons that that I honestly am not entirely sure about today. We looked at it pretty closely and it was surfaced on people's homepage through the algorithm. But a lot of those views were from the United States, as it turns out.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

And when you look at our Instagram channel uh on social media, we have 4,000 members here in Autiarroa, but we've got over 40,000 followers on our Instagram. So there is a real broad reach into the public, into people that are interested in architecture. And I think that that's something that we are certainly going to lean more into as we continue to develop our advocacy program.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

I think on that, and you touched on it, Kevin, it's been a very deliberate strategy to engage with the clients and the users first and foremost at the awards process and at those debriefs, because the downbites we're getting from them are actually gold. You know, and we can we can use an architect talking to another architect, and I know there's often value in that, but the key opportunity here is when the clients, those who are actually living in the end result and with the end result, actually start to share their stories in their and their aspirational things that come with it as well. You know, the emotional context in the bit. So yes, it's quantitative, but it's also qualitative in terms of the environment and just that share livingness.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Beyond those video methods that we just talked about in the post-award engagement, do you guys have any other methods that you are exploring

Proof Points, Metrics, And Media Trust

SPEAKER_02 27:10

or have implemented or looking to implement around engagement with the public to help support architects?

SPEAKER_03 27:16

Yeah, absolutely. So we have a pretty comprehensive media program where we try and grow the number and impressions of our broad reach of the architectural capabilities of our members. And we undertook a real concise strategy to develop that to identify some storylines where we thought that the architect's difference was most salient, and then we could go out and pitch some of those stories. And we've had some great traction and results with that to date. For the first time in Run Shan to be a little while, we we've got journalists proactively ringing the institute for commentary and to contribute to stories that they're writing, which is fantastic because it demonstrates that we are trusted, that we provide insightful and useful commentary, and that we can continue to develop these relationships with media going forward, where there'll be more opportunities to reach a broad audience with stories about architects and architecture.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Would you say as well? I mean, this is a good opportunity to introduce in situ in the conference that's coming up in the middle of September, first week of September. Is that something that is targeted? Obviously, it's targeted towards the architectural community and has a strong architectural community focus, but is that something that you've explored putting out to the general public and having them involved, whether it be through media outlets or even just through general public engagement and attendance? Is that something that you've looked at?

SPEAKER_03 28:35

Yeah, absolutely.

InSitU Auckland Conference Preview

SPEAKER_03 28:36

So the Institute conference coming up in just a couple of weeks is a fantastic opportunity, not only to bring some international perspective and ideas to Autiroa, but with the Commonwealth Association of Architects joining us for this year's event, also broadcasting what's happening in Autiroa to the world. And as part of that, we are trying to bring in as many as we can to that event. So we reach out through our Friends of Architecture newsletters to all of the people in the general public that are interested in architecture and hearing from us to get them along to the conference. And we've also worked pretty closely with many allied and sort of industry partner organizations as well to bring their members along to the conference. And we've reached out to Engineering New Zealand, DINS, landscape architects, ACE, and others to make sure that we get the entire built environment ecosystem along to this event. And we've got programming, I think we'll touch on many of that. We've got Sky Duncan speaking on how to design better cities through designing better streets, which would be a really interesting topic to a broad cross-section of L professionals. We've got uh Shamabil Yaqub talking about all the broad underlying economics that are affecting the entire built environment sector. So I do think that there's really something at this conference for everything across the broad spectrum.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

I was looking at the over the presenters list, yeah, with my opportunity being there as part of media and and and having a conversation to some of the presenters or the opportunity to have a conversation to some of the presenters. And you're right about that broad spectrum. Like it seems everything's canvassed from large civic considerations all the way through to public and state housing. So I think there's a lot to learn or a lot to be garnered from the conference and from the presentations that have that that will be given. I'd just be interested to know if if any of the obviously if you're there and if you're if you're attending, then great. But is is any of this content going to be or is any of this information going to be kind of made public to a degree post-conference? It'd be it'd be great to have that public engagement with some of the presentation content if they are unable to attend.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

Yeah, absolutely. And we've been trying to help to build up some of the interest in the conference in advance by placing some of those stories and interviews in media. Um, for those this is going to date this broadcast, but just yesterday in Viva magazine, uh part of the Herald year, often there was a double-page spread about spacecraft architects and Reggie McFarlane as well, and they're built, which is great to get that out into the broad public environment. Uh for those that are able unable to attend, uh, or for whatever reason at the conference, yes, we will have some select sessions that are recorded and published afterwards on YouTube. Those videos have really performed well from previous years' conferences, which shows me that they have value both at the time and and down the road. So we will make some of that available. But the the best way to experience a situation, of course, will be to be there in the audience to be able to engage, to hear the speakers, to meet them, to have those casual interactions over coffee, over lunch, or just walk in through the venue. So, yeah, if all possible, we would really like to see some more people there.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

I think I think too, just to just to add that to that, and Kevin's done a fantastic job in terms of uh defining that conference program so that it does touch all these multi-points, which is absolutely critical. But the consequence of the media coverage that we've had in the New Zealand Herald over the past uh two or three days, and even the social media reposts, etc., um, I believe it's really only become possible because of the work that we've been undertaking over the last 12 months around the advocacy and delivery of this messaging. So, you know, we look at we look at uh print media the newspapers, for instance, who are particularly interested in the large, the flashy, the big, you know, the expensive. We're now starting to see them pick up um messages and stories around uh social housing delivery and smaller footprint designs. You know, so finding, and those are things that typically haven't been regarded as that interesting or you know, sexy in the in the in the external world. But slowly that messaging is coming through, which is, you know, here's about here's value, here's the delivery, here's how the challenges occurred, and uh here's the outcome. So, you know, all of these things that we're doing, advocacy, marketing approach, uh, the conference, for instance, all have these interconnected and interwoven threads to them. One supports the other and one drives uh benefit from the other as well. So really happy with the performance here.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

We're really yeah, we're really working hard to really actively grow the professions influence across all the work that we do in the project.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Yeah, and that's a good chance to kind of pivot from advocacy to

Practice Support Beyond Contracts

SPEAKER_02 32:51

support, I guess. And obviously we've talked about what you guys are doing to help support the role of the architect in in the face of the public. But it'd be interesting to kind of also just delve into what support you're providing to the profession and within the profession as well. You know, we are and and the conference is going to touch on a lot of these points. You know, it's a changing, it's a changing world. The way that we operate as architects has changed significantly, even in my decade plus long career, you know, quite short in in comparison to many out there. But even in the last few years, our engagement with AI, uh, even the engagement with more cultural uh aspects of design as well has certainly changed, I've been very much, well, from the cultural point of view, very much for the better. AI, that's another, that's another story. But it would be great to get your take on what you guys are doing to help support the industry from within as well.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

I think um Sam, that's really relevant. And we've spent most of this session talking about the outside world, which of course is critical. That can only be possible if we've got a well-functioning and relevant internal um delivery and internal programme. Um so we look at uh we look at our responsibility to the institute and to our members in a number of ways. One certainly providing practical support and advice. So that's the contract documentation, it's practice notes. And I concede that we still have uh some work to go in terms of the speed and frequency and visibility of many of those things, much of which we rely on our members to provide an input on anyway. So we're in this slight conundrum and mix here. Professional connections is definitely another area. Build NZ was a prime example, bringing together the sector and other sectors that we're related to. So we're spending a lot more time and energy and effort and connecting with uh those parts of the construction sector that probably for the last 10 years we've we may have been slightly distanced from. So that's the builders and commercial builders. Uh it's about uh the landscape architects and how we integrate with them, it's about quantity surveyors, and what we're finding is surprise, surprise, that we all have the same challenges, and that's very much around relevance and it's around criticality and it's around support and service. Um, advocacy for the sector, we've talked on about that and we've touched on that, but definitely there's an opportunity to both leverage the practical support we're giving to members, and that's shaping itself to be uh to be quite intriguingly broad. You know, maybe five or so years ago we would have looked at our support provision as being very much in the technical realm. So contracts, practice notes, support. We're finding now, and possibly fueled by the current economic environment, that support is needing to be uh reinforced with practical support around business development, around subcontractor failure and how I deal with that, around business succession, marketing. So we've touched on marketing today. You know, how do we support a small practice or even a large practice in terms of their marketing approach and their marketing delivery? So I see we're going to be, we're going to be extending our services well far beyond the technical support that we've probably been uh relied on for into something which is much more business holistic and um business intense. Interesting challenge. That does require, clearly that requires an alternative resourcing allocation and pool. And that's something that uh we're mindful of constantly in terms of looking at how we spend uh both member dollar and the shrinking pool of sponsorship funding that uh fuels us as well.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

It is excellent to hear that, you know, that that uh support is available and you're looking to kind of grow up beyond that technical side of things. I mean, that's something that I, as a small business owner, uh, you know, setting up my own practice only a few years ago now, have certainly struggled with. And we we turn to our peers and we have conversations and practice support groups and things like that uh in that nature that that do help us kind of get to terms with new things. We can share information for those of us that are forthcoming. Um, but knowing that there is that support or that we can turn to the institute for a little bit more support is great because I would I'd say that a lot of members don't realise that the institute does provide that support and or if they do, I'd say that we've probably been a little bit not unwilling, but unsure of to as to where to go or who to talk to, or whether you know that openness is there to help support as well. So it's great to hear that that is there.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

The openness is definitely there, and we we do aim to provide support to every practice size, every sector, every region across the culture.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

I think, look, and I can't reinforce that enough. You know, I spend I spend a number of hours, even on a fro even on a Friday evening, responding to uh comments from members from something stupid I may have may have said in the bulletin. You know, and the message I I want to share though is that we are an organization that is open and willing to listen. You know, we looked at how we responded to um advocacy, and we'll circle back to that. That was very much member-driven and very much a member initiative. Um, you know, j just needing the institute to represent the voice of four and a half thousand are quite disparate uh practitioners in many cases. Uh, and we are. But, you know, the underlying message is that as a membership organization, we need to be accessible, we need to be relevant, and we definitely need to be open. And if if in fact members are finding difficulty with that, then you know my numbers plastered all over the website. Uh people know how to do it. It's easy to find. People know how to find.

SPEAKER_03 38:12

So which I'm really encouraged by. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:14

Yeah. I think just to emphasize your point, your point, Mark, we we we are open, we have listened, it make changes where necessary and we have really stepped up for I applaud you for that.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

And I think what what I'm starting to see now, what's been the problem in the past, or what I think, and particularly relevant to what Lisa said in her open letter last year, is that there's always this found like that it's been a very top-heavy support network in terms of like the larger practices have have gained all that support, they've gained all that recognition, they've gained all that uh media attention, and then ultimately gain all the work. Whereas the smaller providers, and there are many of us, and and like you said, Mark, it's a it's a very broad spectrum of architectural providers throughout the country. Um, but they're uh you're now starting to speak. What I've noticed anyway from the NZIA is that you're now starting to speak with one voice, and it's not just about the best of the best, it's just about architecture and and and that in all of its capacities, and that's a really nice change that I that I've noticed anyway, at least for the last 12 months.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

I think on that, Sam, yeah, we do we represent a wide spread of practices in terms of size and dimension. And I probably will challenge the statement that some of our larger practices have gained more than they've contributed. I think we've recalibrated that with them and in association with them. So we're engaging with those larger practices in terms of their direction, but also their support that they're providing to the smaller practitioners. Some of that's in that in financial support, you know, around the fees that they do contribute and do pay. Some of it's around um access and provision to the likes of you know sustainability data and information, for instance, or tools. And they've been really forthcoming in that. And I think they've been forthcoming because they do see the value in helping and supporting and working with many of those smaller practitioners, knowing that their livelihoods actually do depend on it. It's symbiotic, really. They do depend on each other. So I've been absolutely encouraged by the willingness of those larger practices to actually contribute to a really well-functioning institute and not just in a way that benefits them.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

That's great to hear. I think ultimately we all do this as architects and and yourselves now as being architecturally adjacent people. But everything that we're doing and the reason that we do this job, ultimately, well, I the way that I see it is for the betterment of the built environment. And that goes across the entire sector. And it's great that these, you know, these large practices are being forthcoming and providing that support because it brings the base level all the way up in you know, any and all improvement, just leads to a better built environment, which is ultimately our goal. I know that you guys have to leave soon. Kevin, was there anything more that you wanted to kind of touch on, just just around in situ and to yourself as well, Mark? Is there anything else that you'd like to kind of cover off?

Value Over Cost And The Long Game

SPEAKER_01 40:50

I think if there's if there's a message I'd like to leave uh your listeners, and I hope that you're our listeners as well, because we do see this as a joined upness, is that we are intent on working really hard and purposefully to change the assumption that uh architectural expertise is an optional cost. You know, for us this needs to become embedded in the norm.

SPEAKER_02 41:11

I'd love to hear that.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

And and examples are, you know, we look at some of those civic deliverables because they're public and they're big. I had I received a letter, it was late last year, from the mayor of Napier actually commenting on the benefit of using an architect through their whole civic redesign uh process. Now, the intention initially was to was to demolish um a library, council buildings, and start again. And this was uh actually an example with Athfields who worked with council to present different options, and many of those options were certainly not as costly as the as the full demolition option, which is where they led and encouraged council to consider. And um we've got happy ratepayers in the Hawke's Bay as a consequence of that. We've got a happy council because they can still use the functionality of some of their buildings during that process. So, you know, the architectural input there wasn't just around the aesthetic or the function, it was around about the utilization and the retrofit, which was which was a great outcome. We've got equ equally number of examples in the residential and smaller home area as well. So for us it's about fi we're fixated on architectural value and not architectural cost. We challenge ministers on the same thing, and we're st we're slowly being heard uh in that realm too. One final comment, and this is very relevant given the events in Parliament yesterday, was I've I've had a number of a number of messages overnight saying, gosh, all of your work with uh Minister Penn Guilding and construction must now be lost and starting again. Actually, no, you know, our relationships in that regard are cross-party and not person-specific. So we've ensured that we've got enough traction and capability to keep that work rolling.

SPEAKER_02 42:49

Yeah, that's I mean, that's great to hear because there is always nervousness in the industry around election years and how that can change our landscape quite rapidly and quite aggressively, and we've seen that in the past. So it's it's excellent to hear that that advocacy that you are doing on the behalf of the of the profession, you know, in the in a parliamentary sense is is continued, or will hopefully will continue through regardless of of who's in power come. Was it November? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

Yeah, works across the parties and November's coming up fast when we yeah, when we invited the the political parties to attend and have a debate at Build NZ, the the response was almost immediate. What time can we be there?

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Right.

SPEAKER_03 43:28

So we we've got those strong relationships right across the the parties and look forward to continuing to build new ones where need.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

And that's the long game. You know, we're we're here, we're here for the long term. You know, the institute itself's been around for 120 odd years, but recognizing that that's required a nuanced change along the way. And we're in another change cycle, which is very much that outward-facing, extroverted perspective.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

And that leads us to that leads us to the the probably the biggest uh extroverted event coming up, Kevin, in situ. Do you want to do do you want to do one final plug for the final thing?

SPEAKER_03 44:03

I'd love to bring

Giveaway Details And How To Enter

SPEAKER_03 44:04

it home. Thank you, Sam. I mentioned that it is a large event. We reckon it's the largest architectural event ever to take place in Aotearoa, New Zealand. And I mentioned that we're trying to get as many people as possible to come along from across the sector and even the general public. We certainly love to have a it's a big fare down at the ATA Center, and we would like to fill it if we can. And I have today the opportunity, through Mark's very kind generosity, to offer two full conference passes to one of you to your listeners here on the Time Principles Podcast. So we would like to provide uh an opportunity for your listeners to write in to Sam, and Sam will provide his email address in a moment, with the speaker that you are looking forward to hearing the most at N situ this year and why. And we will select one lucky winner for a double pass across all three conference days, plus the gala dinner, to be able to come along and experience all that in situ is this year. We've got almost 30 speakers across three days. We've got workshops, we've got a Venice Biennale exhibition that's going to be shown, we've got workshops and tours. It this in situ is so much more than it has ever been, and we don't want anyone to miss out. So through Sam's rigorous analysis of the entries and responses that come in, um, we'll have the opportunity to get to more along. So, Sam, where can they write in with their Yeah?

SPEAKER_02 45:30

If you want to probably try and keep my email feed free, but if you want to send any um commentary to our Instagram account at Design Principles Pod, and I'll I'll assess every everything from there. And thank you very much, you know, both of you for making that uh offer available. I think it's going to be an incredible event. You've been generous enough to invite me along as media, and I'm really looking forward to you know to having some conversations with people while I'm there. You know, lucky winners, maybe you get a chance to have a yarn and jump on the pod as well. So yeah, really looking forward to it. And again, I thank you both for your time today. It's been I've been wanting to have this conversation for quite a while. Um, and I think it's great to to hear what the institute is doing and the direction that that you guys are taking things in. So so thank you very much.

SPEAKER_03 46:13

My great pleasure. Absolute pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Thank you, Sam.