In this episode of 'Works for Me,' host Daniel Mouskis talks to Jim Shields, the creative powerhouse behind Twist and Shout. Uncover the strategies and personal insights that allow Jim to navigate the complexities of ADHD while spearheading a successful career in the arts.
For more help identifying and overcoming barriers to work and learning, go to: ultimaworks.co.uk
In this episode of 'Works for Me,' host Daniel Mouskis talks to Jim Shields, the creative powerhouse behind Twist and Shout. Uncover the strategies and personal insights that allow Jim to navigate the complexities of ADHD while spearheading a successful career in the arts.
For more help identifying and overcoming barriers to work and learning, go to: ultimaworks.co.uk
The Big Picture: How ADHD Shapes a Creative Mind
Jim: The power of play is amazing. It's very powerful and it particularly suits ADHD People need to let go of a lot of detail, they get overwhelmed and play is often very simple and rewarding, and it also helps with that sensory thing.
Daniel: Hello and welcome to works For Me, a new podcast brought to you by Ultima Works, a specialist provider of connected services to enable neurodivergent and disabled individuals to thrive in their educational and professional lives. In this podcast, we will meet with a neurodiverse, or disabled person each episode to find out more about them, their journey, and how their disability and neurodiversity affects their professional and personal life. I'm your host, Daniel Mouskis, and today's guest is Jim Shields. Jim Shields is the founder of the film production company Twist and Shout. He's also the author of two books on the creative business and communication. A, speaker, mentor and creative philanthropist, Jim is also neurodivergent and has attention deficit and hyperactivity disorder, more commonly referred to as ah, ADHD. Jim, it's great to have you on the podcast. I was listening to your TED talk the other day and was interested to hear about how you pretty much fell into the performing arts by accident before going on to build this impressive resume by learning to apply and capitalize on your creativity and your skills in performance. This is something I'd like to explore with you a bit more as it's probably more relevant to today's topic than some listeners might expect. But first, tell us what led you to getting a diagnosis in ADHD.
Jim: well, first of all, both my children were ADHD, and I know there's a lot in heredity talked about ADHD. and actually, interestingly, as they were learning about their situation and we were researching on their behalf, it led me to ask questions about the way I do things. And then my kids started to say to me, you know, dad, that's what ADHD people do, or that's how ADHD people react. And seeing through their eyes, I started to turn the focus on myself. I, was curious. One day I had a long conversation with my boy about his medication and he said, it's just like being able to turn off the room while you focus on something. And he looks after his own, he's 17 now, and he looks after his own medication. He knows when he needs a tablet, he knows when he needs to concentrate. And the interesting thing is that, he said, I don't know how it'll affect you because of your job because certain, the ability to come up with ideas on the spot, the ability to adapt to a complex situation quickly, that kind of thing, I feel is connected to the ADHD. but then there's upsides and downsides. and I was curious. One reason I thought I wanted to find out more about the medication to see if it was a thing I did not go through to the medication end of the diagnosis. I just went on for the basic diagnosis. It would have been further sessions to establish titration and to establish whether I was going to bother. And I didn't want to, I didn't want to medicate and that was the reason I didn't go any further with that side of things. I'm still curious about the medication to see what it would be like, but I don't think I'd want to take it on a regular basis. And one of the reasons is that, ah, in the job that I've got, yes, I've got a team around me to look after all of the stuff I'm really bad at. So I'm really very lucky. But when it comes to having ideas, sometimes, having that brain that just spots three things, we can do it differently at that moment is really handy. If you've got a crew stood around you and the scene you're directing isn't landing as scripted. It looked great on the page for some reason, on the date just isn't doing it. What if we try a different way? What if there's something more efficient? Maybe we get behind on the schedule and it's going to cost us money. Then I can think of a way of cutting something and doing something else another way that makes that happen. There are lots of reasons to love the kind of mercurial mind that comes up with lots of ideas very quickly.
You've chosen not to go down the medical route to manage ADHD
Daniel: Okay, so how have you then incorporated strategies to manage your ADHD having chosen not to go down the medical route?
Jim: well, first thing was therapy. I've been in therapy for four years. That's been incredibly helpful, making me very self aware, and also having the courage to ask the people I work with to come up with ideas to help me deal with situations. So they're very good at being organized in such a way that it makes it easy for me to engage at the point of that my attention is needed. and so a great example of that is I travel a lot with work, tracking multiple sets, of details for multiple locations and multiple flights and modes of transport is really hard for somebody who struggles with executive function. which is one of the things with ADHD. Executive function is the bit of the brain that learns how to do things by process. First you do this and then you do that, and then you do that. But remember that it's a how to manual type of, process. And I struggle to process those. I have to have strategies in my own life to deal with those. And so, for example, one thing that they would do is my pa would put all of the details for the flight and the booking number and that into the appointment in the calendar. Now, that might sound obvious to somebody else who already does this, but for me, that was a lifesaver because I would walk up to a desk in the middle of nowhere and open my phone and look at where I am right now and what I'm doing right now. And all of the information would be there. That's a typical example of somebody thinking about, what does Jim need? and, similarly, with the filmmaking side of things, walking onto set used to be very stressful for me. And I'd be soaking wet by lunchtime. I'd just be so, like, my body would be roaring. I used to think I was ill or something. it wasn't that, it was just that I was masking and I was processing the overwhelm of meeting everybody on set on the first day of shooting. For the first time on that particular job, they came up with a way of saying, well, what we'll do is you can get on set early and then people will drift on one at a time and you'll say hello in your own way to them personally. So it's not a great big gathering. It's actually just to drift in one at a time with people. and that was the one big change that really helped. And on the whole, it does help. And I'm much calmer and I can center myself in the space and get on with the job that's needed.
You say ADHD has given you entrepreneurial characteristics
Daniel: And at the point at which you received that diagnosis, and I think it's significant that you did get it later in life here. did that then shift your perspective of yourself or did you then feel like, actually, this describes a lot of my experience to date?
Jim: Oh, yeah. I've heard this experience in other people as well. You go back through the rolodex of your life and you realize a lot of the reasons you do things is to do with this. And that. Actually, the way you've just been thinking that you were struggling with organization your entire life. Yeah, it validates that it makes me realize there's nothing physically wrong with me and I'm not crazy. But the way my brain operates, is really great in certain situations and not so much in others. I was very suspicious and pretty sure that I was ADHD for several years before getting the diagnosis that, time of life. It is interesting because a lot of my peers, who are not, troubled, with ADHD in any way, they still are fairly old school, some of them, and think, well, is it a real thing? And we're all a bit scatty. Sometimes we all walk into a room and forget why we went into that room or we've put something down and we can't remember. It isn't really that, I know everyone's a bit like that. There are very definite patterns that come to play and, it's too regular for it to be and, too deeply rooted as well for it to be, just something that people do. There are certain processes that I follow through that I do get physically. I get so anxious I have to take a deep breath and go lie down somewhere. I have to break off and have breaks just to be able to focus.
Daniel: You're also a businessman as well as a creative person. Would you say that elements of ADHD have also given you entrepreneurial characteristics in the sense that having an ADHD cognitive profile, there's a certain process you need to follow. You need to do things a certain way. And by being the boss, you can make sure that you work in a way that suits you rather than a way that's dictated by someone else.
Jim: Yeah, that's one thing. There are two things I would say, but the one thing is, like you say, you can create a universe that suits you to some extent. And control of my time is a great example of that. Being able to just decide on a Tuesday morning that that's when I want to do my shopping because it's quiet and I'm not face of crowds of people. That type of decision is something that you have control over. Very early on I had an actual job, in production. I've only had one normal job that is not production, and that lasted three months, when I was in my very early twenty s. The entrepreneurial thing is to do with an appetite for risk. It covers everything from strategy, which is to set up a business and just have a go. It is quite a feat to keep a business going for 30 years in the creative sector, three recessions and counting. And one of the reasons for that is because mixed in with a bit of the ADHD is often some autism. Now, that's not been formally assessed by me, but I'm told that this is something that autistics are very good at and that's spotting patterns. So whilst they don't have executive function, that, allows me to work out a process. What I can do is see a correlation between one thing and another. And that's like spotting gaps in the market, thinking that this is a problem for a lot of people and maybe I could solve that. And that's how I came up with the idea in the business of using entertainment to change employee behavior. I knew that training films were boring. Why can't they be like tv? And that's where the genesis of twist and shout, came about.
As an employer, what more can be done to support neurodiversity in the workplace
Daniel: As an employer as well as a business owner, what more do you think can be done to support neurodiversity and disability in the workplace?
Jim: First of all, like anything, until you admit it's a problem, you can't do anything about it. So, self educate on these things because it's no good saying, oh, you'll get over it or just try harder, or those sorts of comments that are unhelpful at school and they're still unhelpful in the workplace today. As an employer, I am taught. Actually, I've got inspiration from my kids again. Got a lot to thank them for. for example, at a party, my kids borrowed my house to have a party with some friends. They arranged a chill out room upstairs, which was like a sensory room. It was nice and quiet and calm. At any point somebody could go up there and just sit on the bed and just quietly meditate for a little while to calm down. Because anxiety is an issue when, there's lots going on, lots of noises, it's very sensory. so in the workplace, there just needs to be a consideration for people who, for example, can't sit there and work while somebody's got the radio on or somebody's got music playing and it's a real thing. It's not that they're being idiots or, difficult about it, it's literally, I sympathize with that and I get it. And those, as an employer, I would always have that conversation. And, because we tend to employ creative people and on the whole, ADHD is more prevalent amongst creative sectors, then that conversation happens more often than you would think.
People with ADHD tend to exhibit more divergent thinking, studies suggest
Daniel: And that leads me nicely onto my next point, actually, because some studies strongly suggest that individuals with ADHD tend to exhibit more divergent thinking, which is a key component of creativity, what we might call thinking outside the box. Do you ever look back over your career and think to yourself, when I did that, that was so, ADHD, or I was able to do that because of ADHD.
Jim: On the performance side, definitely because that's, One thing I've realized is that people with ADHD are often sensory seeking. They like the idea of driving fast. I have lost my license on one occasion. I now have a car that has lots of guardrails in it so that I can set limits and it won't go above the speed limit and that kind of thing. Sensory, seeking in terms of relationships, sensory seeking in terms of theater, getting on stage and getting that adrenaline buzz from taking a risk about getting on stage and doing a thing in front of an audience. All of those things are sensory based, and that's looking back at my life. Those are the choices I've made. I've got a high risk for appetite. I'm drawn to sensory things, and actually, I'm attracted to unpredictability a little bit, which has always worked out well. so there are patterns that I definitely see over the years.
You say you are completely disruptive in meetings
Daniel: When you compare an environment, like the stage, for example, to the office environment, which one do you feel fits your profile more and why I couldn't spend.
Jim: Every day in an office. Although, we did have an office pre pandemic, and we all turned up there most days. I was very relaxed about whether people would. I never expected anyone to be there at 09:00 but then I also appreciated it if they didn't bolt off at 05:00 p.m. Because that was when the workday ends. I had very loose, I didn't have many rules around what people should consider to be the standard working day. and that flexibility helped me. It helps them. The interesting thing is, if you talk to anyone who's worked for me, they will say, jim treats the office like a stage.
Daniel: Wow.
Jim: And so I am completely disruptive in meetings. I'm busy with the stories of the weekend. I like to try to make people laugh and put them at their eve. it's like, fine being a fun boss, if you will. But actually, there does come a point when certain people are like, listen, we really have to get this meeting done because it finishes in five minutes, and we haven't talked about what we were going to talk about. I'm becoming more self aware of that, and they very kindly put me in my place about that kind of thing. They regularly used to do that.
Daniel: Do you also find that there are things you hyper focus on?
Jim: Oh, yeah, definitely. I have trouble letting certain things go. I've got very patient friends and crewmates, and there was a couple of people in the company who were really good at, ah, saying to me, okay, let's just walk through this step by step, and let's just consider what is the impact of this if it doesn't happen, and it's not that bad, is it? And they'll sort of talk me down and go, and there's an option, we could do that. And then when things make sense, my pattern seeking brain goes, oh, yeah, that's fine. I'd let go of the obsession and I go, yeah, that makes perfect sense. But because sometimes I can see a movie in my head of how the scene is going to look, getting me off, that is really difficult sometimes when I can't see a real reason for it. And that, coupled with an appetite for risk, means that, hell, we could just do it gorilla style and just get the shot. Why can't we do that? But of course, we've got a risk assessment that we have to adhere to. We've got processes that we have to keep everybody safe and to keep everybody on track, of course. And sometimes I'll just throw that in the bin to try and get the shot, but it's not the right thing to do. and actually, when somebody talks me out of that, they're usually right.
Are you quite a visual person? 100%, yeah. Um, everything is visual with me
Daniel: It's interesting to hear you say you can see it in your head like a film. Are you quite a visual person?
Jim: 100%, yeah. the whole, project is a series of scenes for me already pre edited in my head. And sometimes it's not possible with the environment we're in or with the people. And sometimes you have to break it and then do it a different way. Really hard to do that, but I get there in the end. But it is a struggle. everything is visual with me, even things like finances. I prefer charts rather than lists of numbers.
Daniel: Sure.
Jim: I just sort of come out in a rash at spreadsheets.
Daniel: I think many people will sympathize. Do you ever find it difficult to get other people to see your perspective?
Jim: Not if I'm selling a vision of something. I'm very good at telling a story and weaving the images in front of them just by being there. I'm very good with language. I think I'm good with words. I think I'm enthusiastic. I think quite often you can win people over, but sometimes when you're complaining about the fact that a rule is in place that doesn't make any sense, then I'm not so sympathetic and I'm not so creative, and that is difficult to make them see my perspective, that if they could just let go of that bit of bureaucracy a little bit, we would all have an easier life. But I understand there are some things that just have to be that way. Sure, I have an acute sense of injustice, and it's attached to that. That is something else that, AdHD people and autistics have, which is this profound sense of what is fair. I believe. Well, I certainly do. I get very upset if somebody else or even myself is hard done by.
Daniel: Do you ever find that sometimes people struggle to keep up with the pace that you're at?
Jim: Yeah, keeping track of meetings. You can see that I'll run off on a certain thing and go down a rabbit hole and everyone will haul it back on track and go, no, we were talking about.
Paul: Sometimes people misinterpret my intent on a shoot
Let's talk about the real issue, though, and it's this. It is scary for a production team to hear me sort of go through, trying to describe how we're going to do something which is borderline reckless. Not, helped by the fact that sometimes I'll drop little jokes in as well, which can come across as sarcasm. So sometimes, big Paul, misinterpret your intent. My intent is for us to all have a great shoot and all have a great project and win the day. But I think that, sometimes I come across as very glib and the devil make air attitude or the appetite for risk. All of those things makes certain crew departments, crew members nervous. And I don't mean to do that. but I just think it should. Let's just get it done. Let's just get in there and do it.
You've written two books aimed at helping budding creative professionals
Daniel: You've written two books, one of which is titled three men walk into a bar. The other one is once more, with feeling through these works, you're essentially mentoring those creative professionals like yourself and helping them to be more engaging in their communication by, for example, incorporating humor into even sincere messages. What's so interesting is that over the years I've worked with adults who have ADHD, I've heard this thing time and time again about how if something isn't engaging, I can't concentrate or I won't retain anything, or that's just gone right over my head. And the connection is clear here within your message and within the methods that you advocate. One of the books even has the opening line of a joke as its title. Is it fair to say that these books give you something of a pov from an ADHD mind?
Jim: Yeah, definitely. I mean, the whole basic tenet of having a creative career. there are a lot of things for creative people throughout, their lives. They are told it's not a real job. when are they going to settle down and get a proper job. it's risky, it's opinionated, it's unpredictable. People who have, regular jobs, in a way, don't, appreciate that actually. It is a real thing. And without that creativity, that the world would be a very different place. And so, yes, I do think it is definitely attached to my neurodiversity, the books I wrote, because I just kept having the same conversations with people, clients and employees and friends all the time. It's a shame that a lot of creative people feel sort of sense of low self esteem because of the story they've been told over the years, that it's not a real thing. And mum and dad were rather hoping that you'd maybe get, go into engineering or whatever, or maybe you'd go into logistics or accountancy or whatever it might be. there's nothing wrong with those careers at all. We need them. But for a creative person, it shouldn't be done as a default rather than because you'll never make it as a creative. And so I wrote the book because I was looking, I think my business has been blessed with success. And, there was a formula to that about finding your value and all of that. And I just decided to finally give a presentation once. And then out, of that presentation came more and more questions from people. And so I thought, there's a book in here. So I wrote a book. And then the second book was for clients, so that it teaches them how to engage with the creative community, because the person with the budget is the 800 pound gorilla in the room. And they'll sometimes say something like, oh, I've seen this thing on YouTube and I want it like that. Well, that's not what you say to a creative person. What you have to do to a creative person is you have to describe the problem and let them solve it. That's what you're paying for. You're not really paying for them to execute what you want to do if you're a client in marketing or training or whatever it might be. And, that's the difference, really. by making something engaging and making something you'd want to watch, that happens to teach you about things is the future of training, as far as I'm concerned.
Do you believe that comedy can help inform and instill inclusive practice in workplaces
Daniel: I was really interested to see how you feel. Comedy is so vital to this. Do you believe that we can use comedy as a way of informing and instilling inclusive practice into the world and into the workplace?
Jim: Yeah, definitely. I mean, sometimes people take, people said that, my earlier sort of work on cybersecurity, it was too serious a subject that affects people's lives. And, if you do comedy with it, then people won't take it seriously and they won't think it's important or they have to care. When I say work with comedy, I'd rather use the term stories because the early ones were funny, because what you were allowed to do in corporate was so narrow that comedy was the only thing, sex is often frowned upon in corporate life. So it was definitely not going to be that, and it was definitely not going to be violence. So comedy was the one thing left that goes viral on the Internet. and the story side of it is that actually when we remember stories more than we remember content in terms of data. And so that's just, ah, how our brains are made. Everybody's brain is made that way, really, that we find it more interesting and more engaging. If you can weave the messages into the stories, then first of all, more people will watch it. And that's the basic need for any awareness training or behavioral, change, is that if people don't look at it, then you've failed anyway. It doesn't matter what you've put on the page or on the screen. Being able to laugh at something makes it all okay sometimes, as long as you obey the rules, and there are rules. We found that, if you can make a visceral memory when somebody's laughing so much they snorted their coffee down their nose and they think it's hilarious, they'll remember that for a long time. I can remember a joke from 30 years ago because it hit me right in the chest. Whereas ordinary information doesn't last that long. That's a logical memory, and not a visceral one. So I tried to make things that are visceral memories. Now I've moved on to more straight drama. We did a lot of comedy, and I remember the day I realized that actually with one of our stories, we made a room full of people cry. They were that invested in the characters and the stuff that was heartbreaking. I realized, I thought, this is way better than comedy. I really like making people cry. This is much better than comedy.
One point you made is about people remembering stories more than they remember data
Daniel: One point you made is about people remembering stories more than they remember data. Do you feel that also that there is an element to this within the ADHD profile in that you look at things as holes rather than bits of information that then has to.
Jim: Yeah, I'm always looking for the pattern. Like the why? Really? Why is this important? Why is this significant? Why do I need to know this?
Daniel: And has there ever been a time, either in your professional life or your personal life where somebody's tried to say to you, Jim, this is really important and you've just not seen it because you can't see the bigger picture?
Jim: no, I think the problem is I don't see the connection of the little stuff with the bigger picture. I can usually see the big picture really quickly. That's partly the problem. So I don't respect the detail at the bottom of the pyramid, as it were. I don't care about all that. But there is no big picture without all of the details, because that's what makes it work and some of them are vitally important. So yeah, it's true to say that I have dismissed certain things because they were just facts and it's not that important. I think stories are more important. some facts can change behavior, but usually then it's too late. For example, the fact that we are massively overweight and it's really now have to start doing something about it, whereas, if you try to take a long term view on something, you might have anticipated that. So I have a saying that I call it the not me not today syndrome, and it applies to health and fitness, it applies to smoking, it applies to lots of things, because you think it's not going to happen to me. But that's the big picture. but the details are today, like right now, today. If you don't start doing something today, then that will come true and you won't have anything. It'll possibly be too late.
What message would you have for young people with ADHD diagnosis
Daniel: What message would you have, or do you have for young people who have an ADHD diagnosis and they're seeing it as this massive obstacle that they have to overcome or even a barrier that they can't get through? as someone who has the condition and is successful, what would you say.
Jim: To them with young people? if they've got the diagnosis, the chances are they're getting help with it in some form anyway. Although that's not always easy. There are certain situations where the NHS will, if you like, either slightly ignore or, consider you not eligible for that diagnosis, in a way, as in, you can be diagnosed, but you might not get quite the help that you were hoping for. and so I push on that because it's important to get all the help you can. but the other thing is not to define yourself with it. I would try not to make that the sum total of your personality.
Daniel: Of course.
Jim: because I don't see it as a disability, I've stopped using the analogy of it being a superpower, because I think that's also a cliche and not helpful. Sometimes the struggle is real, honest to goodness. the struggle is absolutely real. I've been at my wits end sometimes just because of the simple task I cannot follow through, like online banking or something like that, and I just can't get there. And then the anxiety takes over and I get into a mess. it's real, but, I would turn to play, work out where there are areas in your life that you can play. The power of play is amazing. It's very powerful, and it particularly suits a situation where ADHD people need to let go of a lot of detail. They get overwhelmed. And play is often very simple and rewarding, and it also helps with that sensory thing.
Daniel: When you say play, do you mean like roleplay?
Jim: No, I mean engaging with other people in games that are fun. Okay. Or possibly, even taking up a hobby, like improv, improvised comedy or something like that. That kind of thing is exciting. It feeds your need for extra dopamine. but it also is social. And so it's validating for you. If you do something that's really funny or great in a group and you get that instant validation back, you feel better about yourself, you grow in confidence. The power of those sorts of things, is really incredible. You're suffering from anxiety because you're aware that there are certain things you can't do very well. And that goes for really, I would say, an awful lot of disabilities, actually.
Daniel: And if you'd like more information about some of the issues covered, take a look at the show notes of this episode.