Julian Bashford and the Media Magic of Boo Snoo

In this episode we dive into the world of neurodiversity through the lens of Julian Bashford, a former satellite communications expert turned children's television producer. Julian shares his journey from the arena of international telecoms to founding his own media production company, Visionality, and creating the tranquil and inclusive children's show, Boo Snoo. 

The conversation in this episode reveals how personal experiences with autism inspired Julian to innovate children's programming that caters to sensory and attentional needs without overtly being about them. Discover how Boo Snoo's hypnotic simplicity and structured nature are a hit with neurodivergent children and the importance of having neurodiverse voices shaping content that speaks to their experiences.

Find out more about Julian here: https://www.visionality.co.uk/information

For more information about some of the topics covered, go to the Ultima Works website here: https://www.ultimaworks.co.uk/ 

Podcast hosted by Amy Ward

Transcript

Julian Bashford and the Media Magic of Boo Snoo

This podcast explores navigating life as a neurodivergent individual

Julian: So we're going through this magical moment at the moment where we're discovering all these wonderful things about autistic kids, the trials and tribulations and the glorious stuff as well, in equal measures.

Amy: This is works for me, a podcast brought to you by Ultimaworks, a specialist provider of connected services to enable neurodivergent and disabled individuals to thrive in their educational and professional lives. Each episode will be joined by guests with first hand experience, experts in the field, and everyday people whose stories will challenge your assumptions and open your mind. We'll explore topics like navigating the education system and workplace as a neurodivergent individual. The hidden strengths and talents often associated with neurodiversity. Building supportive communities and fostering understanding mental health and wellbeing within the neurodivergent community. And also celebrating neurodiversity and advocating for a more inclusive world.

On today's podcast, we have Julian Bashford talking about TV production

On today's podcast, we have Julian Bashford. He left a long career in the world of international satellite communications and manufacturing. You were doing that for about 20 odd years or so, I think, Julie. And so it was quite a long time. and then you left to actually set up your own media production company, called Visionality, which I think was back in 2017. Is that right?

Julian: But your facts so far are very accurate.

Amy: Oh, good. I'm pleased, I'm pleased, I'm pleased. Now, certainly on the website for your, your most famous production at the moment, called Boo Snoo from the website. I loved this, quote. So I'm just going to read this for our listeners. you said that the goal for your. For your tv, shows, ah, basically to entertain children who struggle with noise and vocal and narrative led shows, to children also with sensory and attention issues. importantly, it's a show for them to enjoy rather than being a show about them. And I thought that was a fascinating statement and a really good place for us to start about the purpose of what brought you to tv production, and what you meant by that, if you can explain to our listeners, Julian.

Julian: Absolutely. So we'll kind of go in sort of a reverse order, so, because that's about a show that we have on sky kids called Boo Snoo. And Boo Snoo is a show that we're just finishing our second season in production at the moment. So we're looking forward to that coming out shortly. And, Boosnu was put together in about 2017. So these things take a long time, I think, as anyone would know in tv, you think things happen overnight. But it's a long, long, long, slow process.

Certain situations would trigger William's meltdown, we discovered

So in about 2017, I was thinking about, all the various techniques that we discovered when our, eldest son was young. And when he was young, we had, He's very, he's a very smart young man. He was very loving and very giggly. But what we found was that certain situations would really trigger him into meltdown. And they were noisy situations or, you know, restaurants, car journeys, that kind of thing. Now, this was 2005, 2006, when all of this was kind of coming out. And our knowledge of autism then was so much different. I mean, it's so easy to think that we know so much and we've always known so much, but in reality we didn't. And when we discovered then that they suspected that William was autistic, that it's all sorts of things that you see in the films, the obvious Rayman comparisons and all that kind of stuff. But in reality it's nothing like that at all. It's completely wrong. And in fact, where we are now is light years ahead. And I can just imagine where we'll be in 20 years time that we'll know so much more. And so we're going through this, this magical moment at the moment where we're discovering all these wonderful things about autistic kids. The trials and tribulations and the glorious stuff as well, in equal measures. But, what we discovered at the time was the things that worked for William were, Baby Einstein was very big, which was a, set of DVD's and probably videos. It probably predates even DVD's but probably videos. And it was, a set of repetitive toys, toys that spun simple puppets and little artistic things like, oil and water mixing, you know, with colors. But they were made to very low budget and it was very, very simple stuff. And if you look at that and you had things like Thomas the tank engine. Not the polished, the 2D or the computer graphics version, but the original. You know, either Ringo or I think it was Michael Angelius that came after him, but the original models. And the thing with those was that the faces didn't change. And you had time to really catch up what the emotions were of the character. And it wasn't kind of surprising and it wasn't complicated with lots of voices and all that kind of stuff. You know, it was nicely predictable. And so, we would all kind of get a thrill from all being able to remember the names of all the. All the trains, you know, don't test me. But you look at that kind of thing, and then one cock forward and he's doing great, and he's learning computer, programming, and everything's good for the world for him. But I was also looking at, certain videos, music videos. There's a band called Okgo, which has a great video, which is like a Rube Goldberg machine. And it was just one of those trigger moments where you think, oh, now that's fascinating because I can't take my eyes off it. We couldn't take our eyes off that, and we couldn't take our eyes off that. And also, it's really interesting where you see these kind of social media things with, marble runs, or kind of interesting domino type things. And I came up with this concept for a show, and the idea was that if you were to look at what parents with children that were in the same situation that we were 1015 years earlier, what was their thing to go to? There weren't really any shows available that were obvious, and it was stick them in front of YouTube or, an iPad, you know, but there wasn't really a. What you call a wholesome, well produced professional tv show that was for them. And, that's where boost knew. And it was one of those moments when you have a lightbulb moment that you been working around developing 20 or 30 ideas, and suddenly have that light bulb moment. And, that idea was to have a character which is a little bit like Thomas in that there's no face, but it's just a red ball. It's just very clear and very obvious. When you look at the show, when you see the red ball, and people call it the red ball show, you're the guy with the red ball. So it's a red ball that a child takes off of a cloud and puts into a machine. And once it's in the machine, it goes through various sort of, like, marble run esque type things. But the thing about marble runs is when you look at them on social media, it's how big, how impressive, how fast it can be. And we're like the counterintuitive version of that. Our show has the slowest, calmest, most interesting, and most engaging version of that, which is very, very counterintuitive. And you have to just slow everything down, and you follow this red ball as it goes through and triggers thematic moments of art, music and creativity and mechanics and technology all inside this fantastical world of boosna. It's sort of like a. Sort of like a machine that's got all these things inside it. It's sort of an imaginary world inside a machine.

Amy: It certainly is something that's quite hypnotic. I, had a look at some of the clips and I found myself very quickly relaxing and just taking a moment to process my thoughts without being too overwhelmed by too many visuals and layers of sound, which can be quite distracting.

Julian: sound, it. Sound is really important, I think. I think it's something that's. It's very easy, I suspect. And I'm not a commissioner, I'm not a broadcast commissioner or anything like that, but it's very easy to assume that a show should have words to the song, or should have songs, or it should. Shouldn't have moments where there is no sound, or there's very little sound. And very early on, we, almost by accident, we had a moment in an episode where a crane picks the ball up off of one train and puts it onto another one, and it goes for about ten or 15 seconds, and we have music over the top of it. And then our, friends at sky that in the uncommissioned the show, so they said, oh, we like that. But maybe if you just pare back the sound. And we did it, and everyone kind of leant into the screen a little bit when the music stops and it's just like a click, click, click, and just the noise of the mechanics. And everyone goes, oh, that's interesting. And because you don't want to talk over it, you find that everyone just calms and that their heart rate goes down and people just. The kids just kind of chill. And then we discovered the next effect, which is when you remove words from a show, children that are non vocal. And I'm never saying that we have any medical intervention kind of thing here. It is an entertainment. But that's not to say that you can't see some cause and effect, which is interesting. And, we've heard from parents that say that our children hardly ever, or they're non vocal or don't speak much, we don't think they've got many words in them until your show's on. And then they tell us everything about what the ball's doing. And by giving them space, they've suddenly realized that it's a safe space for them to talk to their carers, to their grandparents, the slap they're sitting on or whatever in there, telling you all about it. Some of the earliest feedback we had was just lovely, just so lovely. With parents saying, I can't believe. I can't believe this is like this. We've made it part of our daily routine. Now that we do this before tea or before bedtime. And we found it just calms them down and gives them this little moment where we know it's not going to get them wound up.

Amy: I think going back to your, your quote earlier when you said it's a show for them to enjoy, it's not a show about them. I think that's, that's the difference. a lot of tv shows that I've seen are about children's adventures on doing this and that. And it involves the children themselves. and I'm thinking now about the experience of children with autism. Watching Booth snew with the ball's adventure, it's not about the child, it's about the ball. And it's very easy to be able to detach and it's not requiring these multiple layers of understanding about what's happening on the screen to the character and their story. I can really appreciate what you've brought into that.

Julian: And when it.

The show is inspired by stimming techniques

When we say it's a show for, and we were, this was actually a quote from a parent, you know, the child had said, you know, they made a show for us, which is lovely. the show has things that are inspired by, not slavishly, but certainly m inspired by techniques of stimming things that, are stimming oriented. So we have an episode with some spinny things in it. We've got trains, we've got patterns, repeated patterns and this kind of stuff. And we also have a very rigid structure to this show. So, you know, the opening will run for that amount of time and then that amount of time. And we have three thematic moments interjected by like 22nd bits of pipework. But the moments are 1 minute long, no longer, no shorter. And that's how it works. And m we found that it's that predictability that, really, really works for a lot of kids.

Do you think it's important to have neurodiverse employees working on projects

Amy: Do you think it's important to have neurodiverse employees working on projects that are aimed at neurodiversity itself?

Julian: When you look at shows that are showing children, that have a disability or they have autism or they have anything at all that you want to represent, it is important to have those people involved. You've got to be able to have the experienced voice behind the scenes, whether it's writing or drawing or storyboarding or whatever. It's really important. I think sky and us are, very, clear in saying that bootsnu is a show for everyone. It is a show for everyone. And whilst we have had our focus on making sure that it is inclusive of children with autism, M or ADHD or whatever. We have found that actually everyone that watches it is enjoying it, I think. So reflecting behind the scenes, yes, there is neurodiversity, there is diversity behind the scenes. but it's. It's not something that we are prescriptive about. I think what it is is that we understand the remit, and the remit is to make something that works for the audience.

If we reflect on your working practices in telecoms versus working in children's tv

Amy: If we reflect on your working practices in the telecoms industry versus working in more creative sectors now in children's tv, do you find that you're masking less now working in a more comfortable environment versus what you did before?

Julian: I've never thought of myself as someone that masks, so I don't think that's, that's a thing. I think that if you were to speak to anyone from my former life, they would say, oh, yeah, he was very quirky. You know, I like to think that we had laughs and we had a lot of fun. but, but, but definitely quirky and creative. And I think the challenge with that is when you're in quite a strict, and we're in defense communications and satellite communications and stuff, it is a serious business. And I think in the move to broadcasting and children's tv, it's allowed me to unleash the quirk. So there's no restriction on coming up with, a funny idea. I came up with, Busnow as part of a raft of about 30 or 40 ideas that you do. And that's just what you do. That's what creators do, is, you know, you come up with an idea, you work it until you think it works, or you put it in your drawer and hope it maybe comes back another day. And that's just what you do. But a lot of the things that I've worked on have been more traditional and, Or maybe more grown up and more dramatic, maybe. And, the things that are really resonating are the things that are more quirky. And I think that's possibly what neurodiversity may bring. I don't know. I think it may bring that to where you are less filtered about having to conform to the expectations and the natural fact that you can unleash your quirk, onto the page and, see what we come up with. And you said what we were talking about, what's coming next. I know this jumping the gun somewhat.

Amy: But no, do it.

Julian: That's made me very much focus on the developments that I've been working on. That are the more unusual.

Amy: Tell me more.

Julian: So you'll see, hopefully.

Amy: Oh, exciting.

Julian: Some very unusual things. I mean one of them again is very little words and kind of never been done before. And I think that's the interesting thing is to try and do things that are unusual, unique. In the move to this, this has allowed me to come up with an idea in the morning and develop it and you think that's great. Whereas in a business that's kind of ongoing, it's a long slow slog. And to a brain that's also I have an ADHD diagnosis as well as autism so I have to do it now and I work serially. So this, after this, after this, after this, I'm very bad at stacking and prioritizing and to do lists and all that kind of stuff, it has to be done now. We move on to the next thing and that's kind of how my brain works and this allows me to do that.

The schooling that's available these days is either incredible opportunity for autistic kids

Amy: Yeah. So with your son being, is he 19 now? 1920 sort of time now, has he finished university or just coming to the end or did he go to university?

Julian: A little way to go. So. But he's doing really well. And we've kind of found. I've got ah, two lads and as they've got older we've discovered that they've kind of got the creativity gene in them as well. Whether it's in game development or in art. I can't draw for toffee, sadly. but number two, sun most certainly can. and so there's a lot of amazing stuff that they're doing. and I also look back and think the schooling that's available these.

Amy: Days, that's where I'm going with this. Yes, yes.

Julian: Yeah. The schooling that's available these days is either the most incredible opportunity for young people on the spectrum to realize their potential or the system is letting them down in the most shocking ways. You know, it's a world of extremes. Extremes these days. Waiting lists for diagnosis, waiting lists to get specialists to help at school. We are very, very lucky where we are. We've got a local school just up the road from us here which has a lot of autistic and dyslexic children and it unleashes their potential and does the most astonishing work, has amazing results, but it's not available everywhere and this should be available across the country. And also when you actually look at the capability that autistic kids have, if you get the right. Education, they are brimming with creativity, brimming with ideas. Charming, lovely, lovely young kids, boys and girls, that you just want to unleash onto society with the most amazing armory, of education. And the system is not allowing it, and it's heartbreaking, really, to see that. But hopefully over time, things will improve. As I say, things have changed a lot in the last ten or 15 years, so we'll see what comes next.

What are the differences that you've now noticed as a parent with a diagnosis

Amy: What are the differences that you've now noticed as a parent with a child with a diagnosis versus yourself growing up with a diagnosis? What has changed? I think what has gotten better and what hasn't?

Julian: Absolutely. When I look back at the schooling that I went to, I went to, a grammar school, and you were required to do rugby and Latin and those cadet forces and all those kind of things and all the things that you didn't want to do. and it's amazing when you see what is available to kids these days and, the opportunities to go into things that I think would be really fascinating. The creative arts, the media, or things like environmental, science, and all these kind of really interesting subjects that didn't exist in those days. So I look back at where I was in my education then and look at what is possible now, and, I do think that it's quite astonishing. The reason why, though, that I went for a diagnosis and only just a couple of years ago, really two or three years ago, was, that I could see as William was growing older, we're so similar. And it was just an itch that I needed to scratch. There was no day to day reason why I needed to go and do it. It was just a curiosity that I really wanted to scratch. And, it was very interesting. And so we did that. And it changes nothing so far as who I am and what I am. Ah, and my friends say it's irrelevant, it's irrelevant. I am who I am. To me, though, as a professional working in this space, it gives me a bit more of a voice of experience. I connect very well with adults, with autism, with kids with autism. So I get a lot of experience from that. But just personally, I think it wasn't required. It was just an itch that needed scratching. So that's what I did.

You look at how autism is handled in higher education

Amy: What do you think the biggest misunderstanding about adhd and autism is in this day and age now? We find ourselves in 2024.

Julian: I always come back to the education side. I come back because it's all formed in those formative years at school. And if you could change the way that autism is handled, you know, we got to know each other through the DSA system and disability students allowance system and you actually look at how autism is handled in higher education. And in fact there should be some amazing full time staff in universities, in schools everywhere that can go in and help unlock the capability in these kids rather than them getting lost or sidelined or tucked into a corner or sometimes not actually included in class itself. But in fact that I think is the greatest challenge, but also the greatest opportunity.

Amy: I think, I think for university students that's quite a lot more difficult compared to younger children in a classroom where you could have say a specialist teacher working with kids, in the classroom. Whereas university settings, as DSA, as you just mentioned, so disabled students allowances, they provide the funding for human support, non medical helper, human support, a specialist mentor, for example, with training in autism or a study skills tutor perhaps to work with students with autism that are struggling with their academic skills. So DSA does contribute towards that. But I do understand what you mean about a lack perhaps of classroom support, particularly younger children in those very young formative years.

Julian: Yes. And in fact one of the biggest benefits from the school that they went to was the size of the class. And that only comes with more investment, more investment, smaller classes. And I don't like the idea of of neurodivergent kids, neurodiverse kids being excluded from class. In fact, totally the opposite. They should all be there front and center with all the other kids. But that just means smaller classes to accommodate and you know, that's brilliant. Why would that not be brilliant? But you hear so many stories, particularly since Busnu came along, I've been part of various parents groups on Facebook. And the stories that you hear of exclusion, it's just amazing that it's happening in this day and age, but they should be there right up front every.

Amy: Day, do you think? It's not necessarily something that's consciously happening, but it's more about a lack of understanding and education, about how autism can be supported in a classroom setting and what it means for an individual because it is so different for everybody experiencing it.

Julian: It is, I'd like to think in this day and age, teachers know, I think teachers know that there is a lot of good communication these days and ah, it's a different world to where we were ten or 15 years ago. But what we see at this school up the road is what they are capable of doing with the right form of education and with the right size of classes. If you think you can do that with a neurodivergent class, just imagine what this country could do with classes of that degree of focus and investment and size. and it shouldn't be just for neurodiverse kids, all kids, the, class sizes and the amount of attention that you get is so important.

Amy: If we can shift focus, perhaps from education to employment.

Do you think that post pandemic working remotely has actually benefited the wider workplace

Do you think that post pandemic working remotely has actually benefited the wider workplace and accessibility for people with Asperger's, say, for example, who really don't want to be in this busy office working environment with the fluorescent lights and everybody's keyboards tapping and phones ringing? I mean, do you think, you know, I can counter that.

Julian: I can counter that and say, that isn't human contact so, so healthy towards mental health? Neurodiverse or not neurodiverse, it might be difficult to go into the workplace, but also it's so beneficial for your health as well. So it's such a challenging situation of swings and roundabouts. There was definitely, in the animation industry, there was a move towards a lot of people working from home and then not returning. And then you realize that a studio that was, let's say, pick a place. A Sheffield studio that, ah, you call a Sheffield studio is suddenly a couple of people in Sheffield and a person in. In Malaysia and a person in South Africa and a person here. And then it's a global company. but then what you miss is the getting together and getting together. That community spirit is also so important. But I think the ability to do both is wonderful. the studio that work, on Boosnu, have, a lot of remote workers, but they get together regularly and they connect regularly in person because it is important. The thing is, with live models, you can't avoid being in the studio. So there are people there. Things have to be, filmed and built and painted and everything else.

Having ADHD and asperger's, you struggle with reading

Amy: What are some of the day to day challenges that you face, do you think? Having a diagnosis of ADHD as well as asperger's, what are some of the things that you struggle with?

Julian: One of the reasons why I explored this is because I've always struggled with reading. So I'd actually gone many, many years. And by many years, I mean 37, not, reading fiction. And so I've not read any fiction since I was, 1213. Apart from. Apart from a very poor attempt at getting a grade f in, English. English lit. We won't talk about that. but I'm not a fan of Chaucer. Or Macbeth.

Amy: M gotcha.

Julian: But I've not read fiction because I just struggled to follow character and, the kind of emotional journey of character. So I just didn't, didn't buy into it. So when I look back when I was younger, I didn't really read books then. And then, oddly out of working in this industry, I was contacted by a publisher that asked if I could have a chat with them about a project. And to do that, they had. They sent me a book. And, then I started reading. It was, it was daily exercise, starting off with books for dyslexic kids and then building up. Ah, that's not to say I'm not a fully capable writer. And, you know, I've co run a business for 25 years. but actually reading fiction is challenging, I think, for some people. And, so I do it every day. I do it every day, about an hour and a half, 2 hours every day. reading now, and I have done for 970 days as of today, I think, and let's just say that metrics are an important thing.

Amy: Is that actually something that you would say has worked quite well for you, being able to put aside time, you know, dedicated time, to improve a skill.

Julian: Yes. I was told by a writer friend, that reading is just like going to the gym. and if I'm reading, it saves me having to go to the gym, which is also very useful. Every day I read, and I do it every morning, and without fail, I've done it for 970 days now. And some people would say, that's a little bit prescriptive, but some would also say, welcome to our world. We like predictability, and a bit of structure to things. So I read, and I have, several books on the go at once, and read a lot and really diverse. And that has been a game changer.

One of the opportunities that being in the creative business is working with lots of people

Amy: anything else that has been a game changer that you can think of that's been helpful for you?

Julian: One of the opportunities that being in the creative business is that you get to work with lots of people. And I found that in working with some really lovely and really quite amazingly capable people, is that they compensate for what you don't do and you bring what they don't do, and you're part of a mix. It's very much a team sport. And tv, programs aren't made by one people, they're made by all the people you see at the end of the show. It's a big list of credits. And, so I bring my part, but that part is just one part, and sometimes it's the spark of a crazy idea. but then that has to be realized. So I contribute what I can to that. But there are people that are actually involved in the, the formality of show production, and they bring that as well. And it's glorious to be alongside them and know that they've got your back and they've got, and you've got their back so far as the idea is concerned. And that, I think, is wonderful. And, so team playing is a really important part of this. I think without that, it would be a very big challenge. And, in fact, during COVID a lot of creators, I think, struggled from being isolated, and shows weren't necessarily being commissioned at the rate they were, because they couldn't be made at the rate they were. And so there are a lot of people working from home. So, you know, we, a lot of us show creators kind of gathered together and formed a WhatsApp group, and we all looked out for each other and made sure everyone was okay, and we zoomed regularly. And, it's that team collective thing that I think is vitally important to the well being of, someone in the creative business. Just like any business, really. Everyone brings a skill to the workplace. Whether you're in industry or in a public service of some sort, you're all working together as a team, and, it's making sure that team knows what you need and then making sure you know what they can do together with you. I think that's important.

Is there anything that you would particularly like to share for fellow creatives struggling with getting into industry

Amy: Is there anything that you would particularly like to share for fellow creatives that may be struggling with getting into the industry or might have a diagnosis and are too nervous to get into the industry because it just looks too scary.

Julian: I mean, several things that I've kind of learned on my, on my journey, so to speak, is that computer games and films and tv and apps and everything are all one industry. They all interconnect. So if you are a good writer, don't restrict yourself to thinking, I'm going to write a film. Maybe think I'm going to write some narrative for a game. If you're an artist doing concept art, think I might be a concept artist for a Warhammer type thing, but think, you know what? I think I can actually do storyboarding for a fantasy show or something like that. Think outside the box and don't get restricted in. I think that's really important. We've been exploring this as far as our family is concerned, when we have all these, lengthy discussions about where game development can take you to. And then you look at things like the Mandalorian, which is filmed with this 360 degree, back projected led system where the backgrounds are real time realized. That's essentially a gaming system that's producing state of the art science fiction. You think of that and you think, well, is that gaming? Is that film? So then you then start thinking about, well, kids tv. Well, kids tv is doing some really amazing and sometimes really challenging stuff. The drama that's for kids tv, things like a kind of spark, which is this lovely show on CBBC, which is about an autistic girl. you look at dramas like that, which are just wonderful, but then you think, well, that writer could work on stuff for adults, or a sitcom, or a horror, or, again, game development in kind of interesting narratives. So it's thinking broadly, and along those lines, get out and see people at events and talk. And it is difficult, and particularly if you are, ah, shy or you don't want to go to these things, you have to step forward. And I think they'll probably find that there are many people like you at the companies that you go and chat to at events like games, festivals, and film events. As I mentioned earlier, there are conferences in children's media. Children's media conference up in Sheffield is just wonderful. I was told something. We made a pilot for a science fiction show called Flame. It's about five years ago. It was when I was just starting out and full of excitement and vigor and one of our first projects. And, you know, in your heart of hearts, it's never going to be commissioned. But it was really lovely. And we recorded the pilot. And then my writer friend just, said to me afterwards, I said, this is. This will never get commissioned. He said, something exists in the world today that didn't exist yesterday. Irrespective of who's going to see it, the world is a better place for having made some stuff. And so, to anyone that's creative on the spectrum or not on the spectrum, just make some stuff, show it to your friends, and get it out there. It's wonderful.

Amy: To find out more about some of the issues discussed today and to see Julian's website, just go to the show notes of this podcast, and if you haven't already, do take a listen to our previous episodes.