EP 17: Uncaging Identity: Katia Vlachos on Reinvention, Memoir Writing, and Authentic Living

Katia Vlachos joins us to uncover the journey behind her insightful memoir, "Uncaged: A Good Girl's Journey to Reinvention."

Discover how Katia broke free from societal expectations to explore her true identity. We discuss her experiences with social conditioning and how she came to recognize and escape her own "golden cage."

Her story is a testament to the power of introspection and the courage to pursue an authentic life, offering hope and guidance for anyone trapped in their current circumstances.

Our conversation takes a deep dive into the art of memoir writing, highlighting the emotional rollercoaster of revisiting memories and crafting them into a coherent narrative.

Katia shares her unique perspective as a non-native English speaker with a background in policy analysis, explaining how these experiences shaped her concise writing style. We explore the difficult decisions involved in editing, including the necessity of "killing your darlings" to ensure simplicity and clarity in storytelling.

The discussion also touches on the timeline of the traditional publishing process, giving a behind-the-scenes look at bringing a memoir to life.

Beyond her writing, Katia shares her transformative journey of aligning personal values with her professional life. We delve into her path to becoming a reinvention coach, spurred by personal life changes and the wisdom gained from trusted friends.

Katia offers profound insights into the challenges of coaching women in foreign countries and the subtle compromises that can lead to feeling stuck. As we wrap up, the conversation shifts to meditation, exploring its flexible practices and the subtle yet powerful changes it can bring to one's life.

Join us for a heartfelt exploration of personal growth, self-discovery, and the liberating journey to authentic living.

https://www.katiavlachos.com

linkedin.com/in/katiavlachos

David's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-young-mba-indy/

David's Website: https://davidjyoung.me/

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:01

Welcome to the Real you Podcast. I'm your host, David Young, and this is episode number 17. This podcast discusses tapping into your full potential and finding ways to be the truest version of yourself. Today, I'm joined by Katia Vlachos, a reinvention coach, author, speaker and world traveler. We will discuss her journey writing this new book, how she writes such insightful LinkedIn posts and what she's learned along the way. So, Katya, this probably could be the longest recorded episode I've done. We're going to try to keep this under two hours, which I think we'll do, but it could go very long, so I apologize in advance, but thank you for making time out of your busy schedule to join me.

Speaker 2 0:38

Thank you for having me, david, and I will try to make you stick to this.

Speaker 1 0:45

Or my kids may barge in. Yeah, there we go. My dog's in the crate so he can't come in, but yeah, I think the longest one's like an hour 20.

Speaker 2 0:52

I don't put my kids in crates Usually.

Speaker 1 0:57

Yeah, so I feel like we have so much to cover and we have a lot, I feel like, in common and just kind of similar I don't know similar backgrounds in terms of things we felt and I don't know. I feel like we could cover a lot of ground. So again, thanks for coming on. We'll start with the book, because I think that's kind of will be the focus and that's kind of why you're on, and then we'll kind of backtrack to how we got there. So you have a new book coming out in about a month. It's called Uncaged, so I'll just open it up. You can talk about kind of its genesis and like how it kind of came to be and what it's about.

Speaker 2 1:36

Okay, thank you. Thanks for having me first of all Uncaged. The title is Uncaged A Good Girl's Journey to Reinvention and it's a memoir and it is what the title says. So it's basically part of my journey that had to do with my own reinvention and actually maybe it's reinventions because, you know, there was the career aspect, there was the personal life situation aspect, there was the personal development and growth dimension of reinvention. So it basically takes people through the journey, but of course, like every memoir, it's not about my story. I mean, people are going to read it and think about their stories.

Speaker 2 2:22

So the themes in the memoir are universal. It's a lot about social conditioning, how we form our identity, how we form our beliefs and the choices we make. What determines those choices? Usually, um, a lot of stuff that happens really early on in life, a lot of beliefs we've absorbed again, conditioning. So my through line or concept or whatever is that you know, through our beliefs and our choices, we create these cages around us and the message I want to send is okay, this is how it happens and this is how I managed to get out of it and this is how you can do it too. So hopefully this will resonate or I do believe this will resonate to a lot of people who are in similar situations. And yeah, I'm excited Spread the word yeah.

Speaker 1 3:13

No, it really resonated with me. In fact, I think when you first posted about the title Uncaged. The timing was really perfect for me. I had just gotten back from a trip and I had said to my therapist that I felt like I was going back into my cage when I came home which is not like a slight or anything on my house or my family or anything, it was more just like an overall.

Speaker 1 3:35

I'm here every day, I don't really leave, I'm in my office a lot. It feels very limiting, right. Um, you know it's. It feels very limiting, right. Uh, when I was traveling it felt so freeing and I was out and doing and seeing other people and you know whatever, as adults. I don't know if that's for you, but like I don't have a ton of adult interaction, uh, like in person, uh, other than you know, with my wife and kids, um, and so you start to you miss it, like you're to talk, just to talk to someone else different and just get a different interaction and different energy.

Speaker 1 4:08

So I think it was right around when you posted about. That was when that happened. So I was like, oh, like that's really it makes a lot of sense, did you? How long did you, how long were you thinking about writing it before you actually decided, like okay, I'm going to write this Good question.

Speaker 2 4:25

First of all, to comment on what you just said is this is an interesting dimension of of caging, which, um, I hadn't thought but it's in the book because I felt, like you felt, you know, there there was a stage in my life where I was escaping the cage and and coming back, yeah, I was kind of it's it's not like you said, it's not the people around us, it's more like the way we function, the way you know what we believe, you know about our life. That's kind of we try to temporarily escape, but then it's always there when we come back. How long? Not long actually with this one. Because, yeah, it came out of like both books actually came out of my conversation with my husband and I was talking about, yeah, my journey and something I had learned, or you know what I had learned, or how I had grown through the challenges and all, and it's like, well, you know, a lot of people might resonate with what you're describing this and those like, what are you trying to say? He, he's like I think you should write another book. I was like why would anyone want to read my story? And then I read a little bit more about memoir and I understood that it's not just about my story and and at that point I already knew a lot of other women, uh, who were in similar situations where they felt caged or trapped or stuck or so so I was like like okay, I'm game. I had no idea how to write a memoir. It's very similar to fiction, so there's different rules. I've written a lot of nonfiction, but memoir was new for me, so I hired somebody to coach me through the process and to teach me how to do it, and I learned a ton and loved it. But from the decision to actually implementing I think I was, I was pretty quick.

Speaker 2 6:07

It took a while to write. It took a couple of years because, um, and I you said you want to talk a little bit about the process writing memoir is so different from writing anything else because it's like therapy and same way with therapy, you can't have therapy every day because it gets intense and depending on the topic, so I had to take breaks or some parts just took longer because it was just, it was hard to write, um, and and also what was important is to try to maintain boundaries, like around the writing time and the rest of my life, um, because it's it's easy to take whatever you know like, whatever period you're living in, it's very easy to take it in your you know, and all the triggers and all the the emotions and all that. It's very easy to take it in your life and in your daily life, um, so I had to be very careful about that, but, but yeah, it was. It got very intense at some points and I needed to be, you know, very kind to myself and just let it sit and and come back when I was, um, ready to tackle it again. So, yeah, so that took about two years, um, yeah, that's really interesting.

The Writing and Editing Process

Speaker 1 7:20

The uh analogy with like therapy sessions where, like, you're not going every day because you need time to decompress and work through it, especially depending on the depth of that particular session. I wouldn't have thought about that with writing it, but it makes a lot of sense. Did you have them in your head? Were you a journaler throughout your life? Like, throughout your life? What like? How did you? How did you uh, I guess, capture, depending on I don't know how far back you go, I'm assuming fairly far, kind of like at different points in your life.

Speaker 1 7:52

Um, yeah how did you like capture those? Write about those in detail.

Speaker 2 7:59

So I'm not a regular journaler, journaler, I used to journal when I was a kid and still have those, so that was useful. No, but what you do, and my coach was very wise and she was very experienced. She was like start with the three stories you cannot get out of your mind, but keep coming back. That are the three most important stories you have to tell, and what happens is you start with those and then other stories come up and then, in the process, other stories come up. So, yeah, so I made notes and it became, you know, after I had these three stories, kind of the concept of the book and the rough outline came out.

Speaker 2 8:43

And memoir is not autobiography, like you don't write everything from, like, the day you're born till till today, right, so it's uh, so it's, it's a, it's a part of your life and you try to find the, the stories and the scenes that, um, that support the main themes that you want to talk about or the main message. So I had to be selective about those. Not every, not everything was relevant and uh, and then, yeah, I mean, remembering sometimes is a challenge, depending on how good your memory is and and mine is, it's okay, but I used, you know, I went back a lot. I I opened the journals, I talked to people uh, what do you remember? Uh, I, uh, yeah, I looked at letters, emails, I mean it's. That's why I'm saying it's like therapy, because you really go back in time, and some of the times you don't necessarily want to go back.

Speaker 2 9:34

So but it's important a little bit yeah yeah or painful, or you know, yeah, so, so, yeah, so I I like I said I learned in the process and and then we would, you know I would write and then we would edit and then there'll be, there'll be the learnings about. You know, how do you build up a character, how do you show don't tell, which is a very, um, very important, um concept in in storytelling. Just like you don't say I was anxious, you said it was biting my nails, you know you kind of try to show it in images rather than um descriptions. Uh, so I learned different things along the way, but it really started with a, with the three stories, and then it kind of grew from there?

Speaker 1 10:17

how did you decide? What was the process to decide, like what stories stayed and which ones got cut? Was that your coach? Was that an editor? How did you? Who did?

Speaker 2 10:27

um, I started and and then of course, we were kind of discussing whether that makes sense or not. So it was, it was my selection and then, of course, a little bit of editing, uh, for my coach, and then, once the whole draft was done, it was massive and and then I worked with an editor, a developmental editor, and and then she helped me, uh, winnow it down to like, really, the, the core of you know, the core message and the core stories that support that, and it's still like 77 000000 words, which is a good size.

Speaker 1 11:05

Nice Was that hard, like when she was like all right, this has to go, and you're like no, it has to stay, it's hard, I think, if you don't trust the person who does it.

Speaker 2 11:15

And I had absolute trust both in my coach and my editor. Afterwards. They, you know, especially the editor, was highly recommended to me and the coach I knew already from my first book. So I think it's trust and trusting that the final outcome will be even better for cutting. But yeah, in writer's language it's called killing your darlings and I think that kind of captures the pain associated with cutting down your writing. Yeah, no, it was okay, for for me, I think maybe also my background. I mean, I'm a, I'm a policy analyst. We're taught to write, uh, very concisely and precisely and analytically and uh, so I I find it beautiful, like simplicity is is beautiful, and I'm also a non-native speaker, so my, my language is very simple. It's not simplistic but it's it's not, like you know, flowery or whatever I think, it's not my thing, so it's kind of an easy read.

Speaker 1 12:14

It flows interesting, yeah, so that. So your non-english uh is your main language and your policy background really worked nicely together to help you yeah, I think.

Speaker 2 12:25

I think it just didn't bother me to cut things out. I mean, there's very, very few things where I was like no, no, I really need this because I need the message I need. You know this supports my message, but very, very rare.

Speaker 1 12:38

How long, then? I don't know anything about writing a book, so this is all fascinating to me how long after you have kind of the main, the crux of the book, main draft, from that point to kind of having a final, final version that's ready to be, you know, jacketed and covered and you know, start to print and order and all that like what's that, how long does that take?

Speaker 2 13:00

hmm, so from the final manuscript, like the edited one? Uh, good question. I think this. I think it's about depending. Yeah, what what's important is which publishing route you take, like in traditional publishing, like one of the big five, uh, publishers, it's, it's about two years until the book is out oh, wow uh, I don.

Speaker 2 13:26

I don't know how long the printing takes. Obviously I didn't do that and I definitely didn't want to wait two years, even if I had, I don't know, a penguin knocking on my door. I took about six, nine months Because there's a lot that goes in there. You know the publisher does their own editing, there's proofreading, there's several levels of proofreading, there's, you know, the layout and you know there's approval at every stage. So, yeah, I would say six to nine months. And then there's also self-publishing. I don't know how long that would take, but presumably there would also be a learning curve, um, in terms of, yeah, how you actually do that what?

Speaker 1 14:10

who came up with the uncaged title?

Speaker 2 14:13

okay, uh, conversation with my husband, yeah, yeah, it was kind of a team effort joint joint decision yeah yeah, and it was while I was writing the first draft, like I wasn't done with it, and it was a different. The original title was Lost and Found. And then we came yeah, identity Lost and Found or many other things, but yeah, the title came like halfway through the writing of the book.

Speaker 1 14:42

Nice and the yellow like what was the process of, because the book is very bright like a that book, nice, and the yellow like what was the process of, because the book is very bright like a yellow book. It has, like the pink trim.

Speaker 2 14:50

Oh, that's true, Maybe I'll show you, because I have it somewhere here. So actually, oh sorry, I had it flipped.

Speaker 1 14:58

Sorry, the book is pink with the yellow trim it's pink and it's gold and yeah, Sorry, so pink is.

Speaker 2 15:05

And it's gold. Yeah, sorry. So I think this is my favorite color in the world. And yellow came from the publisher, but actually the cage is golden, so the saffron yellow, so the inside of the book is actually saffron yellow. Okay, and I think that's where it came from and, uh, it's also my brand color, like my website has this color as well. So and we thought it would pop up. Pop out on the shelf if it's pink initially it was white.

Speaker 1 15:37

No, yeah, no, I like the pink a lot better. Um, it's interesting too, and I don't know if you thought about this, but, like you know, obviously the golden handcuffs are very common, which you hear a lot in corporate, but I think the cage being golden too is even more, you know, kind of a symbol of you can get places in life where, like it's supposed to be really good and you feel like oh this should like I should feel happy, or I should feel like I made it, and then you don't.

Speaker 1 16:01

and then I think, like to the outside it is kind of golden, like you're like oh, it looks great, and then in the inside you're like it sucks Um. So I think the gold for the cage is, I think it's very.

Speaker 2 16:13

I think it represents.

Speaker 1 16:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2 16:16

Yeah, well, thank you for saying that. I, it absolutely is. I mean, it is a golden cage, and you know what you said about. Oh, I, you know I have a good, I should be happy, and I've definitely thought that and said that to myself so many times.

Speaker 2 16:31

I work with clients who tell me that and, and it really is a thing, I mean, it's very often, you know, we, we, we have so much but, like you said, we don't have the things that matter to us. So, you know, I had a comfortable life, I had a perfect marriage, I had a great job on the outside, I mean a lot of things that you know, I know a lot of people don't have or would have envied, and yet I didn't feel free, and yet I wasn't doing something that fulfilled me. I was in a toxic relationship, I mean. So, yeah, on the outside it looks very different than how we experience it on the inside, and this is not to say that, you know, there isn't a matter of privilege and this isn't, yeah, this isn't, I don't know, like a problem that somebody else might not experience.

Speaker 2 17:37

Maybe, I don't know, somebody could say that I don't think that the key to reinvention is having enough resources, because I know a lot of people who have the resources yet they can't do it because there's the fear, there's the conditioning, there's all the blocks that we bring with us. And, yes, of course it helps to be able to say, oh, I'm going to quit my job for a year and, just, you know, do what I love. But most people won't even do that, even if they can't afford to do that. So I think to this conversation, yes, and at the same time, there's different areas you need to work on to be able to change your life, and the challenges are real. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 18:30

Yeah, for sure it does. To me. I think it goes back to I actually commented on this on somebody's post today and it's similar to what you're talking about, especially going back to what you said with the social conditioning, I think. For me I think we're fairly close in age.

Speaker 1 18:45

Growing up everything was results, outward results, equating to happiness and worth Winning in sports, getting good grades, going going to college, getting a good job, getting promotions, like it was all of that type of stuff that if you were doing that, then like you were praised, like I was given money if I got good grades, um, you know.

Speaker 1 19:12

And so you start to equate that with like if you're doing those things, then like I'm good and worthy, but if I'm not, then I'm not right, um, and so that gets really away from, like the internal message and the internal feeling of like how do you actually feel? Like, yeah, those things are fine, but like we can't put so much like emphasis on that, and so for me. So once I got, so I kind of did all those things and then I got a pretty good job, kind of right after college I was selling pharmaceuticals and then I hated it, like I just I didn't want to do it, but I was like, oh, but I'm like, I'm making good money and I have a company car and I don't pay for gas, I don't pay for car insurance, like I have all these like external things, and I would meet people and I would tell them what I did and they'd be like, oh, can you get me a job?

Speaker 1 19:58

I was like you don't want, you don't want this job. Like I have to wear a suit every day, I drive 50,000 miles a year in my car, like I cater to lunches. Like you don't, you don't want to do this. But like, to the outside, it was like do you have it made? And I was like, um, and then for me, then you, like I kept going, like I didn't, I couldn't get out. So then you, just you kind of bought it, you buy a ticket to that train and then, like I made stops along the way but I never really made, like any changes and then nothing, really nothing really ever changed.

Speaker 1 20:29

Um, yeah and so, yeah, you can get. You can get into places where, or find yourself in a place where you're like I don't, I didn't actually really want to be here. How did I actually? How did I get here?

Speaker 1 20:40

um and then it can really, and then that really kind of messes with you, because then you're like well, I had free, free will and free choice, and then I made decisions that like put me here, but I don't want to be here. But then it's really hard to just like get out like it it's. You know, typically you can't just like, you can't just leave.

Speaker 2 20:58

Because the golden cage Right, yeah.

Speaker 1 21:01

And then there's layers to that right. It isn't just one it isn't just relationship or job or money or kids or just family or whatever Like it's, there's all like it all kind of works like together. So, yeah, what you're talking about with that from the outside like it probably was enviable or was, and then you're like, yeah, this is not. It's actually not what I want.

Speaker 2 21:22

I don't feel this doesn't feel good well, you said something really important at the beginning, which is you learn what you need to do in order to earn appreciation and acknowledgement and acceptance and love and admiration, whatever it is that we need right, and we learned that that's done by checking the boxes that you mentioned. You know the studies, the grades, the jobs, you know the relationships, whatever it is, and we think that this is what we have to do to get all these good things and that's. You know, we tie our self-worth to doing, doing, doing all that stuff. But that stuff it's not necessarily. That was not our idea right.

Speaker 2 22:08

It's what we learn we have to do. My meditation teacher calls this the winning formula. It's so it works. It gets us what we need. We keep doing that and then you know if your self-worth is tied to all these, you know achievements. It's also very hard for you to stop achieving right, because then you're like you know how do I like, then what?

Speaker 2 22:36

yeah, how do I get what I need? And what we should be believing instead is you know, we get all that because of who we are, not because of what we're doing. But that's not what we thought. And again, it's not our parents' fault, it's not society. Well, I don't know about society, but you know they're doing the best they can and you know there's so many ways we can mess up our children, and I'm sure we are doing it too. But the messages we get early on are very often this is what you need to do. This is your winning formula. Just keep checking the boxes and then at some point be like did I really choose this? Okay, and if somebody asks you so, what do you really want? You've never thought about it really, because it was all planned and prescribed.

Speaker 1 23:20

My therapist asked me that last week. She was like so what do you want? And I stared at her. I was like, what? What she was like you just told me a lot of things you don't want. That's great. What do you actually want?

Speaker 1 23:29

I was like um I don't know, but it's but it seems like you should I know, but it seems like you should be able to just rattle it off right, like if you just ask somebody okay, well, like, what do you want? You'd be like oh, I want like this. I literally I was almost speechless. I was like I don't, I don't know she was like you should probably like spend some time with that. You should think about it.

Speaker 2 23:51

That's a very good idea.

Values and Purpose in Coaching

Speaker 1 24:00

But it was very easy for me to be like, oh, I don't want. You know, I just rattled off like these things, I don't want this. She was like, okay, well, that's, I mean, that's important. Like it's good to identify the no's or the not ones, but like that's, that's only half the battle. Um, but I think that also is like society right. Like you, whether it's a job or a relationship or a house, you can be like well, I don't like, I don't want this, I don't want that, it can't be here, I don't want that. I don't want them to look like this, I don't talk like that the job has. You know, you can do that. But then, when you like really try to identify the core, like values or the really like important stuff, I think that gets much harder because I think it's deeper and you have to. There's a feeling and a um, like a purpose inside of, like what that is, and that's harder, that's much harder to like define yeah, yeah, well it's.

Speaker 2 24:39

It's harder because we haven't done the work right, we haven't. Nobody comes, you know, in your daily life, oh, what are your values, oh, what's your sense of purpose? A coach will do that right, but our friends won't do that necessarily. Um, and, and if you have those like for me it was it was was life changing to to find out what my values were. I mean, of course, we have an idea and now people talk more about that than they used to. Uh, but but you know, going through my coaching training, I was like wow, I was my mind was blown because it allowed me to understand my whole life, like why some things really felt off, hey, I wasn't honoring my values, um, here and here and here, and and why some other things felt right. And I think once you have that, that foundation, things feel right or they don't like you have a better sense of of direction, a better sense of what's good for you.

Speaker 2 25:32

It's still hard, right, I mean I'm not saying then it's easy, oh, I wanted this and this and this and this, because there's so many other ways we block ourselves, right. And I had a client who told me she's like I've never had to make my own decisions. I don't know how to decide now. I don't know how to do it. I'm not used to it, so it still gets challenging, but I think what you described is a really good starting point. I do it right at the beginning with all my clients. It really helps to get clarity. These are your foundations.

Speaker 1 26:06

Yeah, I think one of the things I learned I've worked with three career coaches over the years in addition to therapy, and I don't remember remember which one, but they were talking about how, even in jobs that, like, you're pretty good at and maybe you don't mind, um, if the company's values or that particular role's values don't align with your personal values, that it still won't be right and we don't really think about that from like, when we're choosing, like a company or a job, um, you don't think about in terms of, like their kind of ethos and then like your personal, and then trying to like align those like I never did, um, and so she was like even in this job that seemingly or you were good at and you did, you know some I liked didn't hate anyway.

Speaker 1 26:53

Um, she said you still weren't happy there because you still had this extraordinarily like misalignment with like how you want it to be and operate, and so it was never, that was never going to be fixed, like it didn't matter, you could have done that for longer, switch, whatever. So that was interesting because I'd never really considered that from a career standpoint.

Speaker 2 27:15

Yeah, that makes that makes a lot of sense. And again, sometimes you can't even like you can't point your finger, like you can't put your finger on it, like you don't know what it is. Things feel off, but you're not going to think, oh, it's because my values don't align. So, yeah, I think it again. It really helps you gain understanding and also, in this case, probably make decisions. You know, if our, you know the company values are not going to change, most likely, if there's a dissonance here, you know, maybe it's time to look at other options. At least you, you know um what, what's never going to change and and what you need to do. Yeah, simplistic, but what, um?

Speaker 1 27:55

what kind of led you into coaching? Was it just being disgruntled, like working, or desire to help people? What was that kind of path like?

Speaker 2 28:09

Yeah, a lot of these paths are kind of half coincidence, half not coincidence. I don't believe in coincidence. I believe in many different things happening, events happening to point you in a direction. So I've had friends tell me about coaching and this particular coaching school. I've had at least three people I value tell me over years and like nothing. And then, as I was going through my divorce it's a very long story, no, I will, I will shorten it.

Speaker 2 28:45

As I was going through my divorce, I was also preparing a talk on expats divorcing, because you know, that's how I process stuff. I talk about it or write about it or speak, and, and one of my I was interviewing people for that and one of my interview partners is like I wish I had a divorce coach when I was going through my divorce and I was like, wow, you know, this would be amazing, I want to be a divorce coach. And it was the time. You know, when I was um, I was looking for my next direction. I was going through the divorce, I had to figure out what I'm going to do. I um, I didn't want to go back to, to defense, and and so I was like I'm going to do a, a coaching certification and there, there, I don't think there are any divorce coaching certifications, which was a good thing at the time.

Speaker 2 29:29

And so what I had heard from all my friends kind of suddenly started working in my mind. And then, you know, I met somebody for coffee I've met before and she's like, yeah, I just did this program and, uh, I took them out. Then it was the same program and and so I I sent an email and it's like and they're like oh, we're starting in like two weeks. Do you want to join? I was like, yes, and kidding up, all the weekend it was weekends, and all those weekends were weekends where my ex-husband had the kids. I was like I have to do this.

Speaker 1 30:00

The universe was conspiring to help you.

Speaker 2 30:03

Yeah, I'm trying not to be. Well, we're here, but yes, yeah, I do believe in that. Yeah, I don't believe in coincidences, and I said I will only go to the fundamentals, which was the first weekend, and then see how I like it. And I was hooked, like immediately. So I just loved it and I still do so. Yeah, and I never became a divorce coach. I became an expat coach. Actually, I was working with people making transitions for the longest time because that was also related to my first book and you know that was my passion at the time. So that's, yeah, sorry, long answer.

Speaker 1 30:46

No, no, it's fine. I'm sure the divorce I mean that's obviously a part of life and if I mean, if you get divorced, reinvention becomes necessary, right? So I'm sure that, even though you're not a de facto divorce coach, I'm sure at some point that has come up and played a role in your conversations.

Speaker 2 31:05

I have talked to a lot of people going through divorce. Yes, either in a professional setting or in the sense that I get people all the time. I have this friend or I know somebody. Would you mind pointing them to resources? And I'm always like, well, just let them talk, let's have a talk.

Speaker 2 31:23

Because, yeah, I think it helps. I think it helps if you've been through it and even if it's all sorts of different countries. It's not about the legal framework, it's more about the experience and it helps when somebody gets it and can kind of it's comforting, I think, and it also is helpful kind of to know, okay, what is the first thing I need to look at.

Speaker 1 31:45

It's it can be very overwhelming to be in the midst of this process, so I realized I realized once, a long time ago, that everyone in my family is divorced at least once, and then a lot of them twice, like my parents divorced when I was three. Uh, I have aunts. I have aunts and uncles on both sides that none of them stayed married. Uh, my grandparents both of my grandparents were married, but I think that was more like generational.

Speaker 1 32:11

Uh, because, they were born like in the 30s, they got married like in the 50s, so I think it was a little bit more like you. Just I don't think it was as common.

Speaker 2 32:19

That much, yeah.

Speaker 1 32:20

Yeah, you just kind of stuck it out no matter what, not that they weren't happy, but I just don't think it was a thing, or?

Speaker 2 32:25

as much as maybe they had a happy marriage maybe, yeah, maybe they did.

Speaker 1 32:28

I I do not know. I was a kid, I was paying attention to nothing but sports, um, but it's obviously a lot more common now, so it has been for a while, uh, but anyway, yeah, so I've, I've seen a lot of it and I've seen the impact it's had, you know, on families and what age, how old the kids were like at the time, and you know it's been destructive in certain.

Speaker 1 32:49

You know instances and you know altered relationships you know permanently and um yeah, so I I kind of I understand what that's like a little bit it's, it's look, it's a challenging experience, whether you choose it or whether it's chosen for you.

Speaker 2 33:05

It's, it's challenging, nevertheless different experiences, but but equally overwhelming and challenging.

Speaker 1 33:11

So yeah, how long ago was that? I don't. How long ago was that for?

Speaker 2 33:15

you? Uh, it was. Separation was nine years ago and divorce was seven years ago okay things take long here in chins. A little bit of time, I think two years they take long everywhere, especially when kids are involved.

Speaker 1 33:30

Um yeah but um and so then that's the. So the program you enrolled in you took. Was that like? Where'd the word reinvention come from? Was that part of their program or was that something you kind of coined?

Speaker 2 33:44

no, uh, the program I did is a general coaching program. It's called co-active coaching. It's a school of coaching, um, and it's it's. It's a fascinating model. It's very well-respected, very broad, huge network. And so I got trained to coach anyone on anything, basically, and I started with expats because that was what I was interested in at the time. That's where I thought I could add value and give back, because I had been through the whole experience and the challenges and the mistakes and all that.

Speaker 2 34:19

And over time you know that was a few years I noticed that most of my clients were women who were either following their partners abroad yeah, actually they were mostly expat partners but they were these like accomplished, talented, ambitious women who had taken a step back in their careers to follow their partners or to start a family, or had given up their careers altogether. So they came and they were like I have no idea what to do. I'm like completely stuck and they had all these assets but they couldn't do anything with them because they liked the confidence. You know, the longer you stay away from the job market or from a job, the more the confidence starts going down. And they also felt lost because they didn't really have a sense of direction. They didn't necessarily want to go back to what they were doing before, because, you know, that was part of the box checking kind of activity which wasn't very fulfilling for them, and so they were like like I don't know what to do and most of them ended up doing sorry, ended up doing something completely different.

Speaker 2 35:33

Uh, therefore, their reinvention, so, um, yeah, so I started and, and that's also my story basically. So I mean a lot of coaches, you know, their focus will be on something they've actually experienced and they're forever passionate about and very knowledgeable about. So, uh, yes, a reinvention came out of that and it's, it's, it's linked to, you know, really upsets me to see so much wasted potential. Yeah, there's, there's a lot of potential out there and and it's not, you know, if it were utilized, the world would. The world would be a much better place, and I just it really fills me with joy to see these women really take charge and, you know, go off on their new path and feel confident and feel themselves and feel like, you know, it's their life, they're leading now and not somebody else's life no, I think that's amazing.

Speaker 1 36:26

Yeah, and I was going to say that is similar, because you were in, uh, the states, uh, in la, uh, based on your recent post, and then kind of given a or you didn't have a lot of say in moving to austria, if I followed the story correctly, and so that's you, didn't you?

Speaker 2 36:42

didn't want to leave. No, I mean who wants to leave?

Speaker 1 36:48

and I even asked you like what would have happened if you hadn't left? And then you were like, oh well, that's a big sliding doors, and then it like it's all this ripple, it's this huge butterfly effect, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 36:58

I mean, like I said, I'm super happy, you know, with what I'm doing now. I'm thrilled to have the book out and all that. Would all that have happened? I have no idea. I don't know where I would be today.

Speaker 1 37:11

Now I know why you want to retire in Malibu.

Speaker 2 37:14

There you go. Most certainly, yeah, just like, as long as the earthquakes stay within the acceptable range and the natural disasters, that's the only thing that kind of spoils it for me yeah, you know but yeah the odds are low.

The Slow Process of Unintentional Compromise

Speaker 1 37:33

But no, that's true, yeah, that's uh. So that is true, though I think. I think it's easier when you're coaching, right, if it's something you've gone through, at least in some, in some respect. So when you're talking to women who now are, you know, in another country and maybe didn't overly want to be there, like it's easy for you to speak to, kind of going through that experience. So I think that helps.

Speaker 2 37:54

It does, and sometimes they wanted to be there and sometimes they didn't know. Like, the problem with not the problem the way this what I call caging process starts is that you know, it can be very subtle, it can be. You know, we kind of slowly start to give our power away. It's little things and then they accumulate and you know, maybe somebody really wanted to move abroad and it was an adventure and it was exciting and oh, I'm going to take a break for a couple of years, and then you know when they decide to have kids, and then you know it's not exactly how you expect with children. You know, sometimes you think you're going to go back and you don't. So it kind of takes a life of its own.

Speaker 2 38:41

But not everybody's story is like mine, you know, not everybody was, you know, kicking and screaming. They've moved, or or, and, and even some parts of my story, I, you know, I, I voluntarily, uh, took a step back in my career, right, and uh, I had other priorities at the time, uh, but the outcome is that, you know, at some point I find myself not knowing who I was, not knowing, you know, what I really wanted. So yeah, there's many ways to get to the same place.

Speaker 1 39:10

Yeah, for sure. That's a good point about the how you kind of slowly give it away. It's like the old. How do you go broke slowly and then all at once Right, like it's the same?

Speaker 2 39:20

I read a post on that.

Speaker 1 39:23

Did you?

Speaker 2 39:23

Maybe that's where I read it, I did, I did. I will send it to you.

Speaker 1 39:26

I've seen it recently, but it's yeah, you don't just lose all your money in one day, I mean unless you're investing in like day trading or something.

Speaker 1 39:35

But yeah, then all of a sudden you're like, oh crap, I don't have any money, and it's the same thing right, you give away, you compromise maybe a little more than you should or you wanted to and then gradually over time, or you make decisions that you're like, eh, it's not the best decision, but that's kind of what I did I would. I would do things like well, this makes sense at the time, but I didn't have a. I wasn't great at looking like long-term, like okay, I can do this but what does that mean for me?

Speaker 1 39:59

in like two years or five years, it just like well, this is a little bit better than seeming, this is seemingly a little bit better than where I am. So I'm going to do it. And then I would get there and be like oh nope, this sucks too and I just didn't do a great job of having more like foresight long-term vision and yeah um and then you do a series of those and then you're just like, oh god, I just keep doing this.

Finding Fulfillment in Career Change

Speaker 1 40:22

I just keep doing the same thing. It has a slightly different name and a slightly different title and different company or whatever, but I still just end up right in the exact same place. And so, yeah, I know what that feels like in a different regard but same principle what was your wake-up call?

Speaker 1 40:38

I was standing in my driveway two summers ago, my oldest son, who's now 15, he was 13 at the time and there's a lot of similarities to me just look similar, similar body styles, especially at that age. He's a good athlete, but not a lot of confidence, just very similar to me at that time. And I'd been trying to motivate him for years just to be to have more confidence, to just like more belief in himself. Um, because he was always good when the kids were like at his level or below, so like when he knew he was the better of the players or the best player, then we saw a different version of him. Or when I was playing with him just like he and I, I saw this different version of him. But then when he would play like with the school team or with older kids or better kids, then he reverted back to this kind of shell and he would just like not do what he's capable of. So I've been working with him for years just on like mentally believing in himself.

Speaker 1 41:40

And it doesn't matter how big the opponents are, it doesn't matter if they're better than you, like you still have all this ability and talent and it doesn't matter how big the opponents are, it doesn't matter if they're better than you, like you still. You still have all this ability and talent. It doesn't go away. I know it's easier when the kids aren't as good, but as you get older the kids are going to get better, like the funnel. The sports funnel starts wide and then it gets small, right as you keep progressing.

Speaker 1 41:59

I was like, as you get older and keep playing, right, you're going to play against the best of the best kids.

Speaker 1 42:03

So you really have to figure out a way to like get over this, right. Anyway, so just in talking to him about that and it had been for years I was standing in my driveway and again I was trying to motivate him and I just had this like I don't know epiphany moment of clarity that I realized I was really talking to myself. I had done that I was more of my career, not so much sports, but like I I didn't have a lot of confidence in my career and I had again I'd made all those poor choices and I had jobs that I didn't really want and I didn't like and I always wanted to quit or get fired and like it was just a terrible place to be and I don't know I had this moment where I was like, oh, nothing's ever going to change if I don't do something different, like I can't just keep doing the same thing, and so two days later I told my career coach.

Speaker 1 42:49

I was like I'm going to start posting content on LinkedIn and he was like you're going to do what? And I was like yeah. He was like you don't do that. You don't even have any Do you accounts. I was like no, I was like I have a linkedin account. He was like all right, he's like that's not really you, but like if you want to do it, go for it. I was like why not? Nothing it's got, nothing else has worked, so why not try it? And then that, just so. That was it like. That was the.

Speaker 1 43:14

That was the beginning of this whole new adventure and I have a creative out creative outlet now and I can tell stories now and I don't have a boss and I can do whatever I want and it's just a much better. It's a much better place for me to operate from.

Speaker 2 43:30

Yeah, it took the leap.

Speaker 1 43:32

Yeah.

Speaker 2 43:32

Like, you didn't like, because what you're describing to me, you know, but like with your son, is like and I know it all too well right, you see, you stay in your safe zone where you know you can handle things right when you know it's not it's. It's challenging enough that it looks good, but you know it's not really challenging because you know you can do it and you kind of took the leap to something that was that was new and more like the bigger league right in terms of yeah, you have to learn how to do it right.

Speaker 1 44:01

It's yeah, and I didn't do it like it wasn't a career thing like I wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna start telling stories and it's gonna become a job or a career. I just did it as an outlet, like I just needed I needed something to look forward to.

Speaker 1 44:12

I needed something that felt good because, like my work didn't, and then that affects everything, as you know, and so it was not a hey, I'm gonna start doing this and I'll become a creator and podcast host and I'll coach people. Like that was not on the. There was no nowhere near on the table.

Speaker 1 44:30

But after a few months and I was like, oh, like, I really like this and I think I'm pretty good at it. Um, then it was like all right, let's, let me see if I can figure out a way to like do this, you know, full-time, because it's way better than you know anything I've done so what I was doing before.

Speaker 2 44:44

Yeah, um inspiring.

Speaker 1 44:48

So, uh, and now he's 15, he's a freshman and he's gotten better. He still has still has a ways to go, but it it has improved.

Speaker 2 44:57

Um yeah, and then you're, you keep kind of sending the messages and actually the best messages are coming from what you're doing, not what you're saying, right? So I think you see that yeah it's interesting, like my youngest is.

Speaker 1 45:09

he's almost 11. He's actually more. He's a little more inquisitive about like what I do, so he'll point blank be like did you make any money today? Have you made any money? How much money?

Speaker 2 45:17

have you made this month Like?

Speaker 1 45:18

how are we? How are we doing financially?

Speaker 2 45:19

I was like I don't know if we need to go there.

Speaker 1 45:21

We're working on it. It's a work in progress.

Speaker 2 45:26

That's funny. Kids are quite focused on these things. Yeah, I will get these questions from kids too. But yeah, they're seeing you again. I'm guessing they're seeing you do something you love. They're seeing you in a very different mood, maybe Like your energy is different, so you start something that you weren't doing before I mean all that is is important. Uh, before they thought all I did was send emails.

Speaker 1 45:53

If you would ask them what I did like what do I do for a living, they'd be like you're a professional email sender. Every time I walk into your office, you are crafting and sending an email. And I was like, oh, that isn't, it isn't untrue, um I do I do more than that, but I do.

Speaker 1 46:10

I do send a lot of emails, that's, that's. Yeah, that's true. So I don't think they don't think that anymore. They probably couldn't tell you what I do, but they would no longer tell you that I'm a professional email sender.

Speaker 2 46:18

I've advanced. Love it, yeah, love it.

Speaker 1 46:21

I've advanced past that level. But yeah, so, yeah, I mean I'm sure you have it with your clients right Like they feel stuck, they feel they don't know what to do, and it's trying to help them identify. It doesn't have to be content creation, but like there's something that they're good at, there's something that they're interested in. And then you're trying to find that intersection of like okay, here are my talents, here are my interests. Uh, this provides me energy or this drains my energy. Let's move more towards the provide, less away from the drain, and sometimes that takes a lot of experimentation and talking and and whatnot. It's not something you just like figure out one day, but like that's kind of the idea I think. Think, when it comes to work, is really that intersection of like talent, interest and like energy, and I think if you can get close on those three then, like I know, you're close to the right spot. Might not be perfect Most things aren't.

Speaker 1 47:17

But that's where you're trying to go anyway.

Speaker 2 47:19

Your sweet spot yeah.

Speaker 1 47:20

Yeah.

Speaker 2 47:20

Yeah, I mean you're describing very well what we do. There's actually a really nice and I use it sometimes or often a really nice framework it comes. It was originally Japanese but westernized. It wasn't conceived for career choices four concentric circles, and one is you know, the one circle is what you love to do, then there's what you're good at, then there's what you can get paid for and then there's I think that's the western part, and then there's what the world needs so purpose and all that and the intersection of the four circles is your sweet story, your ikigai.

Speaker 1 48:03

It's called the icky guy yeah, yeah, I've heard of that. So same same principle, a little more, yeah, a little more detailed. And yeah, the getting paid part, certainly if you're doing it to try to as a vocation, like you know, to provide income, then you know certainly that part matters, yeah, I mean we're assuming.

Speaker 2 48:22

Yeah, if money is an object, yeah, then fine, but for most people it's important. And also it's not just about I mean again, I've worked with people who are relatively comfortable but they want to have their own source of income. I mean, it's not just about comfort, it's independence, it's symbolism. I mean we tie a lot of our self-worth to what we do and how much we earn very often, but it's which I don't necessarily agree with, but it is a fact of life and it also does give you more choices. Yeah, I'm not even going to start going down the road of. You know, you think you're in a very stable situation, but you know, you wake up one day and I don't know, your husband's having an affair or they pass, and there there's so many you lose your job.

Speaker 2 49:12

You know you both lose your jobs Like it's. It's there's. There's real reasons why, why this is. You know, this circle is important as well.

Speaker 1 49:19

The other thing, too, is you know, I'm sure you've, yeah, for sure, I'm sure you've seen and heard and read and experienced. But you know people that are at a pretty young age, you know, sell a company, you know, or get bought out and they have a bunch of money and then they're miserable, like because they, they have all, they have all this time on their hands and they have, you know, plenty of funds, but they have no purpose they don't have any reason to get up, they're just like and then it really spirals.

Speaker 1 49:51

And so you think like, well, if I just had more money, that would be great, it would help. But it's not going to solve, like your overarching issues. If it's not internally figured out or relationships aren't solid and intact, like that, money isn't going to do much. It'll alleviate a little worry and stress maybe, but everything else is still going to be there and so even people that you work with that aren't doing it for the money. It's nice to have something that you're invested in, that you're interested in, that provides some kind of meaning and value and purpose, like to doing when you have kids.

Speaker 1 50:26

Obviously that's a big part of it, but you know you still need things like for yourself, because that's just a lot of giving and not a lot of, you know, receiving.

Speaker 2 50:38

A lot of receiving, there's a bit of imbalance, and imbalance is never good, right? Yeah, yeah, I agree, I mean, you need something to help help you, to make you wake up in the morning, right, like to want to get out of bed and, um, it's nice to have the funds to pay for the therapist, but it's better not to need a therapist right in the first place. Yeah, it's what we said it's. It's of course it helps, right? Um, but, but it doesn't solve your problems. Resources don't solve your problems. Resources don't solve your problems. You solve your own problems by being willing to do all the internal work.

Speaker 1 51:12

Yeah, so that kind of is a good segue to this next topic of meditation, and I know you do your Sunday series of posts and meditations. I have tried to meditate off and on for many years and I usually stick with it for like a day or two. So I would love to hear your take on kind of how you got into that, its effect and how someone like me who can't seem to do it could maybe start long and stick with it for like a week.

Finding Peace Through Meditation

Speaker 2 51:45

So early on, you told me that and I created a meditation. I don't know if you ever did that. You probably didn't, or you wouldn't be asking me this question. So after we're done, I invite you, I will send you the link. I'm joking, but I'm not joking. What happens you? I will send you the link. No, I'm joking, but I'm not joking. Uh, what happens?

Speaker 2 52:09

Really, david, you're, you're not, you know, the first person who says, oh, my mind is busy, I can't sit, or I can't stick with it. You know, I can't, I can't persist. Um, it really has a lot to do with what we expect of meditation and what we expect the experience to be like, and um, and also there's a lot out there about what you should be doing as a meditator. You know there's certain schools of thought, I think, that are a bit stricter and that becomes almost prohibitive, because the average person is going to be yeah, that's not me, I'm not going to sit, you know, cross-legged on the floor. If that's what you need to meditate, and and my knees are hurting and and that I'm itching everywhere, I'm like I can't sit. Still, you don't have to, right? So I'm actually. Um, well, I was meditating already for six years before I did my teacher training, but, um, I also was fortunate to be with this amazing teacher. His name is davidji and he is not like he. Basically, what we learned was was a synthesis of many different schools and but one of the overarching like values or principles was flexibility. He's like comfort is queen. You have to be comfortable, like you want to lie down, lie down. You don't need to be on the floor right with your knees your knees, like with your, you know, in the Buddha seat or whatever they call that. Or, you know, you can use a mantra if you want. If you don't want to use a mantra, don't use a mantra.

Speaker 2 53:33

Also, thinking Again, I'm quoting him because he says it so beautifully. He's like if you think, it means you're alive. We all have thoughts. We have, you know, 60, 70,000 thoughts per day. Your mind is going to think, no matter what you try to do, and the idea is not that you're trying to be dead by not thinking. You're not trying to like be in a vacuum and not have any thoughts.

Speaker 2 53:56

Although I don't doubt that some very advanced meditators might be able to do that, most of us cannot, I can't at least and so the point of meditation is always to get better at noticing when your mind goes into whatever spiral it goes, and then you bring it back to whatever it is, whether it's your breath or I don't know physical sensations or or um, you know the mantra or whatever it is you're you're focusing. You know there's so many different kinds of meditations one where you like stare at a candle or you stare at a mandala, you know image or whatever is the object of your attention. You know you bring back the mind, you bring back the mind, you just keep doing that and that's meditation. It may not feel like you're coming out of it and you're like, fully, you know, relaxed and zen about it.

Speaker 2 54:48

But you will notice over time. You know, if it's not in two, three weeks, it will be in a month or three months, maybe it's in six months, I don't know. But your life will change and it's very subtle. It's very subtle. There's not going to be a moment where you're like, oh, I feel so calm. But you know you'll have. You'll be in a situation where you normally get super triggered or you start yelling at people and you're not going to do that or you're gonna like yell for one minute instead of 10, like a starbucks exactly good one.

Speaker 2 55:17

You read my posts, uh. So, yeah, no, I mean again, if I'm sure, my experience I, I noticed how I was in in my relationships at home with my kids, um, I was, I was much more patient. Or or with, um, you know, much less judgmental, because, because you learn to just give people the benefit of the doubt and and you learn to ask questions, like you know what could be going on in in their lives, you know, um, a lot of the principles of meditation are, are are not just you know how to do the 10 minutes or five minutes or half an hour, whatever it is you're doing, it's, it's also principles for life. It's about how you want to live your life and how you want to treat people around you, how you want to treat yourself like self you want to treat people around you how you want to treat yourself. Self-compassion is a huge one, values, I mean, that's what's so beautiful about it, and not everybody has to know the whole background.

Speaker 1 56:15

And.

Speaker 2 56:15

I'm saying this practice kind of already can have a big impact on you. You just need to be patient and you need to be realistic about what meditation is and just give yourself a break every single time and start with five minutes. Let's say I'm going to take five minutes for myself today and I'm going to tell people not to bother me, and it's just five minutes Everybody has five minutes and and I'm just gonna, just can't breathe for five minutes, that's it.

Speaker 2 56:47

Look at the start, the wall, whatever some people will do that and that's it. That's meditation, like really. And then you see whenever you feel like doing more or listening to something. I love, I love guided meditations. I listen to a lot of them, um, and then you find your rhythm, you find what works for you, like, for example, I only meditate first thing in the morning. If I don't, the day is long, I'm not going to meditate during the day, I'm not going to be able to break up my day. So you find what works for you. Very long answer to your question, but the next thing you're going to do is try that meditation. That explains all that again.

Speaker 1 57:25

Yeah, I think what you talked about is how long it takes. I think that's. My biggest problem is that I don't feel anything. It doesn't feel different and I've been wired like everyone right that instant gratification. And you want that kind of immediate result, because if I go run and I break a sweat, then it's like okay, the run caused me to sweat, cleared my head, feel good, I feel better, my heart rate was up, whatever. So there's a very quick 30 minutes of I. I feel different, um, whereas doing just sitting or whether it's walking or whatever, not distracted and not plugged in, it's like I don't, I don't feel any different, like when it's over, it's like I feel exactly the same as when I started.

Speaker 1 58:08

Uh, yeah and so I do. I do it for like two or three days. There's no change, and I'm like I'm not gonna do that.

Speaker 2 58:14

So I think that's the problem so did I answer that, that, that question, or did I provide a different perspective?

Speaker 1 58:20

yeah, well, I just, yeah, I mean you did because I need, I need more. I need to give myself a longer, a longer ramp, a longer runway, um for like much longer so much, so much longer, and at the same time, so much more rewarding than than what?

Speaker 2 58:36

than breaking a sweat, like really it can. It can be so much more rewarding, but you have to stick with it.

Speaker 1 58:41

I love to sweat. I don't know that's a bold statement, I don't know.

Speaker 2 58:43

And this is, and this requires but you have to stick with it. I love to sweat I don't know that's a bold statement, I don't know and this requires you to shift your perspective, and I know you can do it. I know you can, no, but seriously, yeah, it's a much longer runway, but the results are also very different. I mean, let me ask you do you need more calm in your life? Do you need to feel more grounded or or more peaceful, or more? Yeah, peaceful, but like at peace with yourself and with the people around you and with life, and I don't know.

Speaker 1 59:12

I. I mean I'm a lot. I'm in a lot better place now than I was even just a couple years ago, but even and then, compared to like several years ago, it's almost like a night and day, um, and a lot of that has to do with therapy and now doing work that I want to do and just a lot of things, um, age, uh, all that kind of stuff. So it all kind of plays together. So, yeah, I mean, I mean going back to what we've talked about this last hour with you know, identifying like I identified the jobs that I had that I didn't like as like a personal failure and then that affected like everything else, right, so I was miserable at work.

Speaker 1 59:50

It's very hard to come home and be like super happy, happy and energetic when you just spent eight hours miserable, and so that that was happening and I worked to try to alleviate that a little bit, um, and then so that's, but that's gotten better. So, yeah, I mean I, I think all of us probably could use, no matter how how good you are, in terms of, like, calm and groundedness if that's a word, probably isn't uh, yes, can use it, you can always get a little bit better.

Speaker 1 1:00:18

Right, you could. So I mean I'm in a good place now. I feel like it could improve and especially like with the business and like entrepreneurship and that rollercoaster ride of just you know obviously it's not the steady income anymore and just you know just everything that goes into that I think that's where it would probably be the most beneficial is just riding that wave like a little, making that a little smoother ride yeah, I was gonna ask you if you ever get stressed, because I mean that's where there's a lot of research around how meditation actually helps with with stress management, right?

Speaker 2 1:00:55

like it helps lower down the levels of stress. You know the physical manifestations.

Speaker 1 1:01:00

You know the heart rate yeah, I mean I exercise a lot and so that that's kind of my that's my, that's my counter. That's really good, um, but you know, obviously it's not, it's not everything, so um. So I I do come and go with it. I just usually go a lot quicker and then.

Speaker 2 1:01:18

Not. Nobody has to meditate. I mean, it would be wonderful, but you just have to see if there's something you're missing. And if you're not missing anything, then if you don't need it, then you don't need it. That's fine, but don't let the expectation stop you if that's something that would benefit you.

Speaker 1 1:01:35

That's all that's all I'm trying to say no, it's good. Well, we've covered a lot. There's so much we haven't even gotten to. We're a little over an hour. We could easily go for much longer, but we'll start to wrap it up here.

Speaker 2 1:01:50

I don't think anybody will listen beyond this point, maybe even above, before this point.

Speaker 1 1:01:57

Yeah. I feel like most people are listening at like 1.5 or 2x and you don't have to listen to the whole podcast episode in one sitting.

Speaker 1 1:02:08

You can do it, you can break it up so it's yeah, I think I think it would be a huge loss if they didn't. So I really had fun uh. So I just again I really appreciate coming on. Uh, I love, I love everything that you do your posts, uh, the book, just your energy, just it really resonates a lot with me. So I'm very grateful that you took an hour out of your day to talk to me well, thank you, I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 1:02:28

Thank you for inviting me. Uh, thank you for asking all these wonderful questions. I I love the the yeah, not the energy. The the yeah, the energy, the focus of your podcast.

Speaker 1 1:02:38

I think we need more of those, so oh, thank you it's been a pleasure I appreciate that uh, before we uh officially shut it down, you can tell people how they can uh order the book and then how they find you. I know you have a website, obviously the linkedin uh profile, but, yeah, anybody listening that's interested. Uh, how would they go about um ordering and and locating you?

Speaker 2 1:03:01

so, uh, uncagednet is the website of the book and it just came on a couple of days ago, so I'm really happy. Also connects to my website, so you can also go to katiavlahoscom and then there's a page with a book and Uncaged so either way, and there's links to pre-order the book. There's information about the book. Of course, connecting with me on linkedin um is always an option which I welcome would be happy to um, yeah, connect with people and, yeah, the usual other social media. I'm on instagram as well, but not as, not nearly as active as on linkedin nice.

Speaker 1 1:03:37

So now I have pre-ordered the book, is it going to ship on october 1st or around october 1st? When should I expect it?

Speaker 2 1:03:43

it's gonna ship on the first and you're in the us, so you're gonna get it right away.

Speaker 1 1:03:48

Us europeans have to waita little bit longer because it takes time to uh to get here, but uh, and then when, and then when is my signed copy? When are you gonna send me that? You know, we'll have to figure out where in the world you're gonna meet right I was gonna say so, maybe when we meet up in toronto, because you have, uh, your remember to bring the book.

Speaker 2 1:04:09

Yeah, you have family there.

Speaker 1 1:04:10

My stepchildren are there there you go, so you have a reason to go there. I'm not that far from there. I also have people there that, uh, I like to see, I would want to see. So it's a very very mutual meeting ground for us. So okay, we'll, we'll, tentatively.

Speaker 2 1:04:24

I think that's our plan.

Speaker 1 1:04:25

There you go, bring the book, save the shipping, you'll be there anyway, and yeah All right Awesome.

Speaker 2 1:04:32

In the meantime, we'll keep chatting here. Awesome On LinkedIn.

Speaker 1 1:04:35

Thanks, Katya.

Speaker 2 1:04:37

Thank you, david, take care.

Speaker 1 1:04:38

Bye.