05 - My Business Is Pleasure

Many of us have no idea what it's really like to make porn. Today, we’re joined by two women from different areas of the industry—one a filmmaker, the other an adult film performer and sensuality coach. They share insights on the importance of good casting and representation, the balance between spontaneous pleasure and scripted scenes, what makes “regular” movie sex scenes so captivating, and the unique challenges of being both a parent and a sex worker.

Featured Guests & Links:

Jennifer Lyon Bell, award-winning filmmaker. Jennifer Lyon Bell mixes arthouse cinema with hot explicit sex in her own movies. She has degrees from Harvard University and the University of Amsterdam. In 2004, she founded Blue Artichoke Films (based in Amsterdam) to create unique erotic fiction films and documentaries that illuminate the riveting, intimate, and sometimes delightfully awkward side of sex. She also specializes in sexual cinema as a university lecturer, intimacy consultant, and curator. 

Laura Bentley, advocate for sex workers, sensuality coach, pornagraphic actress and professional companion.  Born and raised in the south in North Carolina, relocated to southern California to educate and promote human sexuality and destigmatize sex and sex work in our society. Follow: x.com/laurabentleyla, 

Materials Referenced: 

She Will Cheat - Laura Bentley (Explicit, 18+ only)

Headshot  by Jennifer Lyon Bell of Blue Artichoke Films

Kaila Philo. “Porn Stars of Color Face Racial Inequality and the Wage Gap, Too.” Colorlines, Feb. 6, 2020.

Ashley Reese. “Why Is a White Woman Worth So Much More? Inside the Porn Industry’s Racial Pay Gap.” Jezebel, June 16, 2020.

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Porn Nerds is a co-production of Squirm and BOOM Integrated, the podcast division of GRAMMY-winning audiobook leader John Marshall Media. Huge thank yous to Adrien Glover, Uri Mansion, and the team at BOOM Integrated.

Squirm is an educational platform that helps people have productive and compassionate conversations on difficult topics related to sex and relationships. We do this through approachable, inclusive offerings, including games, events, workshops, and audio originals. A lot of sex advice ends with “talk about it.” That’s where ours begins.

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Transcript

Porn Nerds - Episode 05  - My Business is Pleasure - Transcript

(0:00 - 0:18)

In case it wasn't obvious from the title, this show will feature adult themes and explicit language. Now that that's out of the way. Okay, so when I first got into porn, I really saw what is like this covert, glorious, style mission.

(0:18 - 0:39)

I was going to expose the industry for all this abuse that I'd heard about from other girls that were already in it. That they're just abusing, taking advantage of girls, that it was this dark ugly animal. And what I discovered is, it's really like any other industry.

(0:39 - 0:56)

You need to have agency, you need to know your own personal boundaries, and you need to be able to speak up to that. I'm Tess. I have a master's in sexuality and have worked with indie porn producers.

(0:56 - 1:08)

And I'm Kels. I'm a director, producer, and a daughter of a sex worker. And this is Porn Nerds, a podcast about porn and your sex life.

(1:10 - 1:33)

Today we talk with two women who work in porn about scripts versus spontaneity, the role of empathy in porn, and the monetary value of anal sex. Okay, we're rolling. All creative endeavors require a lot of revisions.

(1:33 - 1:39)

That's really rough. Really rough take. 

(1:39 - 2:02)

Along the way, there are also a lot of stumbles and things that just don't make it into the final finished product. Is when somebody stuck a... when somebody stuck a cube, when somebody... What I will never forget is when somebody stuck... is when somebody... If you were to listen to the first version of this show, you might not recognize it. And that's probably not a bad thing.

(2:03 - 2:10)

Then you try this new stuff and you're kind of embarrassed. And you're like, yeah, like my biceps are so weak, my arms are so noodly. There you go.

(2:11 - 2:35)

Boy, howdy. How about that? When we watch movies, TV shows, or even porn, it's fun to imagine what happened behind the scenes. What was it like on set? Who else tried out for the lead? What was the prop master up to? Today, we are going to get an inside look at what it's like to make porn.

(2:36 - 2:50)

We speak with two women who worked in the industry for a long time, one that's based in Los Angeles and one based in Amsterdam. But before we meet them, there's something we need to address. Today, we're choosing to focus on people who really love working in porn.

(2:50 - 3:14)

And for the most part, have had positive experiences. But it's important for us to note that even though that's our focus in this episode, partially to counterweight all the negativity that's out there about porn, we don't want to gloss over the fact that there are some very real problems with how some porn sets are run. Performer safety and well-being are two top of mind concerns for a lot of porn watchers.

(3:15 - 3:30)

In general, my thoughts on porn, not great. I think that there are a lot of ethical concerns with it, exploitation and stuff like that. So I worry about that guy's fucking women and then fucking them over.

(3:30 - 3:52)

I find the pornography that I enjoy the most as actors and actresses that seem to be authentically enjoying themselves, which I think is kind of a rarity. As we learned last week, there is a huge variety of porn available. And that variety does not extend to just the finished product.

(3:52 - 4:14)

It also extends to production styles. A lot of porn features people who are there enthusiastically, not out of duress or desperation, which is so often the misconception. I didn't consume it for years and years and years, and when I found myself as an adult in my 30s living this life where I kind of felt like I needed something else.

(4:14 - 4:29)

I found porn like young couples who were making their own and they were so excited to be together. And they were so excited to be in front of a camera. It was just like, it was a pretty amazing thing to find.

(4:34 - 4:46)

Our first guest is Laura Bentley. I am a sex worker, an advocate for sex workers, a sensuality coach and an adult film actress. Laura is from a very small town in the South.

(4:47 - 4:58)

She has a degree in elementary education and taught fourth grade for years. And I left that industry. I loved it, but I felt a true calling to help people in a sexual way.

(4:58 - 5:13)

Sex is natural and there's so many benefits that come from being in touch with yourself and knowing yourself as a sexual being. Laura has been in the industry for years. She has worked for mainstream agencies and produced her own work.

(5:13 - 5:44)

You can see her in titles such as Horny Stepmom, Laura Bentley, seduce his stepson and fucks him in front of his GF. Or she will cheat, soft mature pussy gets pounded. Here's how that one goes.

It starts with a phone call. Hey honey, so today's got to be the day. Damn it, can I do this? Her husband is at work and instructs her to kick out the unwelcome, very muscular, super hot house guest that the husband had invited to live with them six months ago.

(5:44 - 5:50)

She agrees, but grudgingly. We need our home back. All right, well I'm going to handle it.

(5:50 - 5:54)

Okay, I love you sweetie. Love you too. Bye.

(5:55 - 6:07)

But there is a twist. All right, let's see what the old wife's up to on those security cans I installed. All right there, oh good girl, going to talk to Seth.

(6:08 - 6:16)

All right. Excuse me, we need a talk. Sure, what's up? So I know that my husband said you could stay here.

(6:17 - 6:25)

Yeah. The husband watches as Laura and the house guest have a conversation. I'm not trying to pry anything like that, but I know that you and John are having problems in the bedroom.

(6:25 - 6:38)

That's not your business. I mean, I know it's not, but you know, I hear the weird noises going on in there, it doesn't sound pleasurable. Where one thing leads to another and... Oh no, this is not what I thought it was going to happen.

(6:38 - 6:57)

Oh geez. Oh, she's taking his cock out. It's interesting to note that all of the titles, nearly all the titles on her page, include something like milk or mature or horny stepmom.

(6:58 - 7:07)

And Laura is in her mid 30s. And some of these are more than five years old, so late 20s, early 30s. Right, a lot to unpack there, but another day.

(7:07 - 7:20)

Laura has had a long career and has had different management throughout the years. While she currently loves her agency, she shared some stories from when she had representation or worked on sets that didn't align with her values. This is what you'd get.

(7:21 - 7:38)

Okay, you have a shoot on Tuesday at 3 p.m. It's a boy girl scene vaginal. Sometimes you would not even know who you're shooting with until the day of the scene. You're putting to a room and here's your bed or here's your setup.

(7:38 - 7:47)

We're going to do these four different positions. We need 15 minutes each in these positions. Say these words.

(7:47 - 8:01)

It's very scripted, very directed and extremely impersonal. So you're in these positions. I mean, the one that I think of most commonly is where your hands are on the guy's chest and you're like this and you're right.

(8:01 - 8:13)

There's a lot of sadness, calm reverse, cowgirl on top of him. That is extremely exhausting to the point where your arms, your muscles are literally trembling. Five more minutes, Laura.

(8:13 - 8:16)

Five more minutes. We need the footage. We got to get the footage.

(8:16 - 8:27)

And then there's all these little details like you show up and then all of a sudden the guy's like spanking you like there's no tomorrow. Well, whoa. Hey, look, sometimes I enjoy to be spanked.

(8:28 - 8:46)

And if that's discussed prior, that's completely fine. But when you walk into a scene and it's being recorded and you're, if you respond to that in a negative way, you're going to get a ton of irritated people. Laura, you're messing up the scene.

(8:46 - 8:58)

You're making it take longer. Why are you? And so that's a big issue I have with the mainstream industry is it's not that cut and dry. You can't say boy girl scene on Tuesday show up at this time.

(8:58 - 9:13)

You're doing vaginal. That's all the details you need. Laura told us about a specific experience that really solidified for her how important good representation is when navigating the world of porn.

(9:15 - 9:23)

I was scheduled for a boy girl vaginal scene. I show up. I wanted to do anal that day.

(9:23 - 9:34)

Just wanted it. And the director said, Laura, have you ever done? I don't have you ever considered it. And I'm like, you know what? I want to do it today in the scene.

(9:34 - 9:41)

And he was done. What? Are you serious? And he almost lost it. So I had a blast.

(9:41 - 9:47)

The crew had a blast. We got this great scene. It hadn't been 10 minutes over.

(9:48 - 9:57)

And my agents calling me Laura. What the hell is wrong with you? What are you doing? We did not negotiate that. You could have gotten paid so much more money.

(9:58 - 10:02)

Now you've blown it. Now it's already out there. And I just thought, whoa, wait a minute.

(10:02 - 10:09)

This is my body. This was my decision. And this felt right in this environment with this person.

(10:09 - 10:20)

I wanted to do this today. That was a huge moment in my life to say, wait a minute. If I want to have anal sex with someone in that moment, I'm going to do it.

(10:20 - 10:29)

I'm going to do it. This story really stuck with us. And God is thinking about the sort of B schedule for sex acts.

(10:30 - 10:42)

As in, the monetary value ascribed to each act. And this is not a comprehensive breakdown. Like there's not a companion PDF that's going to be available for download with the yet.

(10:42 - 10:49)

Right. Not yet. To get just a little tiny taste, we went on sexyjobs.com to see what's out there.

(10:50 - 11:03)

You could get about $1,200 for lube wrestling. $400 for photos of you posed as a rag doll covered in cum with the disclaimer that it is in no way actual sperm. So perceived cum.

(11:04 - 11:21)

Of course, like any other industry, how much a person is paid depends on a variety of factors such as experience. And like other industries, there are problems of racial pay disparity. One study found that women of color and mainstream porn are paid half to three quarters what white women tend to make.

(11:22 - 11:48)

And let's remember that Japanese and Ebony were both in porn hubs top three most viewed categories in 2023. We followed up with Laura after the interview regarding this anal anecdote that she shared to ask how much more she would have gotten paid in that scene. She said that her base rate for regular quote unquote vanilla a.k.a. vaginal sex is 1200 and that she gets paid an extra three to 400 for doing anal.

(11:48 - 12:14)

We asked her if she was ever paid retroactively by the production company and she said no, she was not. It's a fascinating conversation to me because sex often just evolves when you're in it, right? You don't always set out in an encounter and say tonight is anal and I will blow you but not to completion. Maybe sometimes, but you kind of feel it out in the moment, but it's a little bit harder when you have a contract.

(12:15 - 12:39)

Yeah, how much do you allow for spontaneity when you've agreed to do certain things and agreed not to do certain things and like what happens if you change your mind in the moment? How do you negotiate that? You don't want to really start drafting an addendum when your pants are already down. Maybe. If you're in it, you're riding on top of someone and you want to finger in your ass.

(12:40 - 13:04)

I guess, yeah, how much do you just follow what feels good to you in the moment versus ensuring that you get compensated based on the keywords that this video is going to yield and therefore the money that it's going to make the production company. Right, and it's also not just you deciding what you want to do. You also have your scene partner and even though suddenly you're like, actually, I think I am okay, putting my finger in your butt.

(13:04 - 13:38)

Are they okay with it? And do you have that negotiation on the spot? Or is it like, cut, pause, take a beat and you guys decide if you're okay moving forward? And if that's the case, then how do you not account for the pressure that that puts on somebody to change their mind in the moment, right? Like, there's so many layers of what that negotiation looks like if people on set are actually open to negotiation versus just like a blanket. No, we're sticking to the agreement because that's the cleanest way. But regardless, talking about money is really loaded and then talking about sex is really loaded.

(13:38 - 14:14)

So you merge the two and it's going to get dicey. It's probably the two trickiest topics, smashing into a child literally in real time. Yes.

And when we followed up with Laura, we asked her, like, how does this play out if you want to change something mid-scene? So she told us about a recent shoot experience that illustrates how a successful negotiation can happen. Basically, she wanted to do double penetration, which was not part of the original agreement. And the director said, no, we need to negotiate pay and that includes calling your agent, making sure it's approved.

(14:14 - 14:40)

So she pitched 500 extra to DP and he said, I could do 300. And then he told her, never, ever do extra, even if you want to, without negotiating a pay bump and having your agent approve it. Whether it's setting a boundary or asking you to get paid more, Laura said that the pressure on some sets can make you feel really hard to speak up.

(14:41 - 14:52)

You need to say, hey, I'm comfortable with this. I'm not, and you need to know that way before going in to a shoot. The pressure when you're on scene, usually it's all male.

(14:53 - 15:23)

Usually the only female there may or may not be a female hair and makeup girl there, but you have to really stand up for what you're willing to do and not do. I've had to walk off of a scene one time because the pressure was way too high on something that I absolutely was a hard no for me. It's knowing yourself and being able to speak up and being willing to walk away with the threat of, oh, Laura, you're going to be blacklisted.

(15:24 - 16:01)

You know, it's going to be hard to get scenes again. Well, my brand and my own self worth is worth way more to me than that, but I also see how many girls do kind of get caught into this cycle of giving in to that pressure and end up doing things that they don't want to do. Well, I'm like, I think about myself as, you know, a 20 year old, 19, 20 year old and even just having one on one sexual encounters and how hard it was to stand up for boundaries or what I wanted or any of that just like in a private experience.

(16:01 - 16:11)

And then I think about like adding camera and lights and like just the stress of a set to that dynamic. And I mean, that's really hard. Absolutely.

(16:12 - 16:24)

Yeah. I would imagine that advocating for yourself happens before you even take the job, right? So then how do you end up deciding which jobs to take and which to pass on? Okay. Yeah.

(16:25 - 16:56)

Where do I start? It all centers around respect. I have to work with a guy that I know is going to respect me is willing to have a preliminary conversation about not only what I like and what my boundaries are, but also what are his are we even going to be compatible? I won't film with someone that I haven't had a sexual situation with prior because what I want to put out there is is real. So usually we'll meet for coffee or cocktail.

(16:57 - 17:11)

We'll have a conversation I like to start off by saying I'm a very sexually open person. You can't tell me anything that will offend me as long as it doesn't involve animals or children. I'm very sexually open.

(17:11 - 17:38)

There's a few things beyond that. And just make sure that they understand they're in a very safe place to discuss their fantasies, what they're looking for and what they would like to explore. And then we have an intimate encounter that is unfilled to see how our flow is, our connection, and it's fascinating because usually the first scene we film is usually like a very vanilla.

(17:38 - 17:53)

Like, we're still figuring each other out. We've had a session before, but we're getting to know each other. And it's like this beautiful creature how when you get like five, ten videos down the road, how wow, well, you know, I'm very comfortable with you, Laura.

(17:54 - 18:29)

Like, maybe we could try this this time. Hey, that sounds great. So it's really neat.

Like, we'll start with this very vanilla video and then by the end of it, he's got a butt plug in. I'm getting the anal. Like, I mean, it's who knows? Like, he's dressed in women's clothes.

Maybe he's getting it from behind. Like, it's just, it's a really beautiful thing to have that kind of connection with someone and see where it grows. It's just so beautiful to hear about you forming these earnest relationships with your co-stars and building that trust to where the sex can become more expansive.

(18:29 - 18:44)

And it leads me to another question. How, if at all, has working in porn impacted your personal sex and dating life? I love this question. Man, I could write a book just on that.

(18:45 - 19:09)

I would say the most profoundly has been the fact that I'm a mother in the adult industry. And there's many people in our society that cannot hold the two ideas at the same time that you can be a good mother and a sex worker. I think a lot of that comes from what the idea of sex worker is in many people's minds.

(19:10 - 19:22)

It's someone who's probably on drugs who doesn't have their life together. Maybe they're desperate. Maybe they're being trafficked and forced into the work that they do.

(19:23 - 19:48)

I get it often that even people who will be completely okay knowing what I do as soon as they find out I have a child. It's like, oh, how can you do that? That has been one that has been the hardest for me. But also, it makes me even stronger in my quest to destigmatize this.

(19:49 - 20:09)

There's this one particular time that just really stands out to me. A lady sat down beside a man at Atlanta airport, an older lady. And she says, honey, are you traveling for business or pleasure? Well, I love that question because my response is always, well, my business is pleasure.

(20:10 - 20:18)

And I explain what I do that I'm traveling. I'm meeting with a client. I'm a sexual coach for him and his wife.

(20:19 - 20:46)

And we had been talking about my daughter before this came up. Well, heaven forbid, what if your daughter wanted to do what you do one day? How would you feel about that? Well, I would support her. I would hope that she does it as well as possible and for the betterment of people and society around her.

(20:47 - 22:02)

And as long as she's happy and healthy, why would I have any opposition to that? Why is the fact that I'm a sex worker and then all heaven forbid that may rub off on her? Why is that negative? I'm waiting for sex workers to be appreciated and represented and allowed to do that freely. I really connected with what Laura was saying about the idea that she's up against a lot when she tells people what she does, that maybe she's on drugs or she's desperate or she had no other choice to get into this work. I know for myself, whenever I tell somebody what my mom does and that she's in this field, I definitely feel like a preemptive defensiveness to clarify like, well, no, she used to have this corporate job, you know, to clarify that it wasn't like she was forced into this because she had no other skills or nothing else to do.

(22:02 - 22:23)

A lot of people kind of assume that that's where someone's coming from if they end up in this line of work. I think there's something so backwards about that because there is industry around every like human desire and want. For some reason, the sex industry is deemed unworthy or like dirty or bad or invalid.

(22:24 - 22:37)

And it's like speaks to just our own societal squeamishness around our sexuality and these like vestiges of puritanic culture. Yeah. And as we've talked about, the interest in sex does not match the stigma.

(22:38 - 23:17)

And I think stigma is a word that can lose its meaning pretty quickly, but it shows up in very real ways, like the censorship that sex workers face or that we deal with when trying to market this show or promote other parts of squirm. We're always trying to trick the algorithm by spelling sex S-E-G-G-S or using a corn emoji instead of the word porn. But I would bet my house that the people who are responsible for building these social media platforms and enforcing these quote unquote community guidelines watch porn.

(23:17 - 23:43)

I bet they watch porn and therefore benefit from sex work. All right, which is another example of that central conflict where people are espousing these morals or values, but they're not aligned with what they're actually doing in their day-to-day lives. Or maybe they are like really consistent.

No, Tess just doesn't have a house. Now I'm just out my house. But all this disconnect is it's troublesome and it's also just sad.

(23:44 - 24:01)

Like it's sad that there has to be this big chasm between what we're doing and how we feel about doing it. It's like you can't have both. You can't watch billions of hours of porn and also not believe that the people who are making the porn are like valid in what they're doing.

(24:01 - 24:18)

That just inherent hypocrisy contributes a lot to the anxiety that people feel around porn. You know, watching a lot of porn, but also having this background noise of, oh, well, this is a dirty thing, like this industry is bad. These people are exploited or these people are got here through desperation.

(24:19 - 24:51)

And part of unpacking all of that anxiety is understanding that there are so many people who get into sex work because they want to, because they love it, because it like does something for them. And there's so many people who engage with sex workers on the consumer side who also get something really valid and nourishing from that relationship. Our next guest is a really good example of somebody who went into this industry because they loved it and wanted to be making porn.

(24:52 - 25:17)

It's almost embarrassing to say because I've heard of porn in high school and right away I thought like we could do better than this, you know. That's Jennifer Lyon Bell of Blue Artichoke Films based in Amsterdam. I thought, wow, all these adults with all this like free time and access to private spaces.

(25:17 - 25:32)

And like what they're doing just doesn't look as fun as what me and my friends do. Like, you know, I really feel like this could be better. And I think it was even before I went to college that I started saying like, wow, I'd really like to make sex movies.

(25:33 - 25:43)

I'd like to make porn. And I definitely remember I talked about it in college a lot that I wanted to make porn. And nobody knew what to do with me, you know, it was Harvard.

(25:43 - 25:53)

Yes, you heard that right, Harvard. She was at Harvard. But it remained a constant interest of mine because I thought, yeah, I want to see something that's not being made right now.

(25:53 - 26:15)

Who's going to make it? And I would keep looking and just not find it. What were some of those early conversations like whether it was high school or in college or you were telling people like, I want to do this, like, were people on board with you? Or they like, I don't know you like that's kind of weird. I think, I think then, particularly being so young and being a woman.

(26:17 - 26:40)

People almost didn't believe women were into sex. Like I had a lot of comments from people expressing kind of a sense of mystery. That I would enjoy things as much as I did on a personal level and that I would want to take that into a professional career or like a creative expression that just impossible to a lot of people.

(26:41 - 26:58)

Jen would describe her filmmaking style as adult cinema that bridges the gap between porn and regular indie cinema. It's important to her to make films that feel emotionally realistic. What I like about, you know, regular cinema sex scenes or sexual situations is that you understand what's at stake.

(26:59 - 27:18)

Like, why did these people not have sex before these two people? Like, what are they to each other? What's going to change between them when they have the sex. And a lot of that has to do with, you know, my favorite topic, which is empathy. Like you empathize with one or both of those characters and their emotional situation.

(27:19 - 27:53)

And I believe that the more empathy you create with the characters, you get access into their sexual feelings and their sexual lives. And so, yeah, cinema is set up for that, for manipulating, manipulating is a bad word, but playing with your empathy and giving it and removing it. So when you get to the sex scenes, they're often really emotional, not in a romantic way, but they're full of different kinds of emotions, whether that's fear or nervousness or jealousy or whatever.

(27:53 - 28:14)

And that, for me, makes for a more interesting and erotic experience. If I were to have a word cloud about porn, I don't think that empathy would have been on the word cloud for me. Like, it would have been like, yeah, what would be facial penetration, like, hard cream pie.

(28:14 - 28:18)

Hi. Milk. Yeah.

(28:18 - 28:31)

Empathy and porn just don't feel like immediately connected concepts for me. And I really, but I really like it. Like, I really like that thread of, are you rooting for them? And I don't know.

(28:32 - 28:51)

It was kind of like blew my mind when she said that. I like it too, because when I see porn, even if it's not the type of porn that really does it for me, I still have a physical reaction. I still feel the sort of visceral arousal just from seeing people having sex or really hearing it because the audio is like a big part for me.

(28:52 - 29:12)

But that's some sort of physical empathy, right? My body is responding to what's happening to someone else. And until digging into this further, I hadn't really thought about the emotional side. But it makes sense because part of what's so appealing about porn is getting to be part of a sexual experience and feeling it like come through the screen to you.

(29:14 - 29:19)

Do you remember in 8 Mile? Oh my God. When he's like, has her. Yes.

(29:19 - 29:27)

In the factory. Like he like, sits, picks her up and puts her on that drafting table or whatever. Like, I'm really going through a journey.

(29:28 - 29:33)

What else has eyes like glazed over? Yeah. He like has grabbed her. Yeah.

(29:34 - 29:48)

Her hips. Her skirt. And Jen says something really important that is worth noting that to build this kind of empathy, it doesn't need to be a long drawn out.

(29:48 - 29:55)

Like, look at the first act of 8 Mile. It can happen really quickly. It doesn't have to be a big story.

(29:55 - 30:03)

I have a film called Headshot. I think we see him for less than two minutes before the sex starts. But he conveys so much about himself and his feelings.

(30:03 - 30:11)

You really feel long into him and you want him to get off. At least I do. It's kind of with this tricky feeling of his stomach.

(30:11 - 30:36)

But of course you try to imagine what's going to happen. You know what's going to happen. For people who haven't seen it, will you explain the premise? So I started from the Andy Warhol film Blowjob from 1964, where all you see for many, many minutes is a young guy with long hair, a leather jacket against a brick wall, getting a blowjob.

(30:36 - 30:43)

The Andy Warhol film is meant to be sort of distancing. You can't hear anything. You don't know who his partner is.

(30:43 - 30:55)

It goes on for a long time with no feedback from him. So you don't really know how his emotions are changing or anything. And I thought, wouldn't it be cool to remake this with the emphasis on kind of getting into his head.

(30:55 - 31:09)

So understanding more how he feels about his partner, how he feels about what's going on. Also to, you know, as a person who loves among other things, giving blowjobs. You know, the piece that you miss is getting to see the penis owner's face.

(31:09 - 31:17)

You know, that's our definition. You can't do both at once. And so people really enjoy how he's feeling.

(31:18 - 31:30)

I think the best way to do that is kind of through facial expression. So I thought, you know what, let's remake this Warhol film where you never see anything below the waist. But I'm going to use a camera with motion, use multiple cameras.

(31:30 - 32:07)

So it's really all about his reaction moment to moment. We asked Jen more about her process and what she felt were the most crucial steps in making the films that she wants to make. I think a big part of what I do is casting.

(32:07 - 32:28)

And casting takes so long. I think other porn directors are like, what are you doing? You know, but I have such specific criteria for how I think a person is going to be happy on a set like mine. And it's all about, you know, a sense of charisma that has nothing to do with like what their body shape is.

(32:28 - 32:48)

But it also has to do with like a willingness to let down your guard. So I always take performers for coffee or a drink or something before we agree to work together. So in the case of Headshot, Chris, you know, he actually worked on another film of mine on the crew and approached me at the cast party and said, like, I really want to be.

(32:49 - 33:21)

I thought I did, but now I know I really want to be in a film for you. And I still made him go to coffee with me to see if he was open, but you could just tell he was very present. And so, you know, I pick carefully who I'm going to work with.

I pick carefully what the concept is. I brief everybody on the crew, you know, down to the person adjusting the lighting, you know, what's going on and what's the vibe of what we're trying to accomplish here. And then I, you know, have faith in the process and that can be hard.

(33:21 - 33:49)

I think that giving the performers total freedom to forget us as much as possible and just follow their bliss, you know, their works great for me. And yes, it means that there are certain shots that I might have liked to have that I'm not going to get, you know, because we just couldn't get the cameras in the right place while stuff was happening. But for me, that's a great trade off and I have tried it both ways.

(33:50 - 34:08)

I've also tried choreographing scenes so that I get more shots that I want and I just don't like it, you know. I imagine from the viewer's perspective too, you get, you can really feel that authenticity. Like these are, you know, this is a real pleasure and real emotions, even if it is on set and it's not actually their bedroom.

(34:08 - 34:29)

There's not like somebody with a loud speaker going like, okay, like tilt your ass up. And you get really perfect imagery that way, you know, and some really want certain images and that's the kind of porn they like. But I'd rather give those things up in order to get that flow and in order to get other happy accidents.

(34:29 - 34:42)

Like all the time stuff is happening on set and I'm like, whoa, I would not have asked for that. And that is awesome, you know, because it's not like I invented what's awesome about sex. It's usually the people doing it who have better ideas.

(34:43 - 35:08)

But yeah, there's just so much more that's possible. Like, what's a good example? Well, like in Adorn, which is my game film where I gave Savie and Parker a game to play where they would start out naked and then they could only touch the other person over under clothing that they put on the other person. So the idea is that it would get hotter and hotter.

(35:09 - 35:42)

The more clothed that they got. Because it was just so off the beaten path of like what what goes in what order a whole bunch of fantastic stuff ended up happening. And there was a point where, you know, Parker is on his knees with his cock out and Sadie, who's just had an enormous orgasm, comes around behind him and starts jerking him off while they're on their knees and and she actually has a finger up his ass.

(35:42 - 36:04)

And I was like, this is fantastic. And I heard this before, you know, but it reflects what they wanted to do. I would imagine so much of it does really come back to the environment that you're creating on set so that everyone feels that kind of agency to be able to just go wild and like play with it.

(36:04 - 36:58)

Yeah. And if you go a direction, you know, either in real life or in a porn film where you feel like this isn't what I thought it was going to be or whatever you want to create an environment with your partner on the on the set where you can back out and say like, oops. Not doing that.

That's let's let's do this other thing instead and have that be really relaxed and not a judgment on anybody. And I think that's just as important as experimenting is having the comfort and freedom to change gears or put the brakes on without offending the other person. It was so refreshing to talk to Laura and Jen.

I just love them both so much. They're so fun to talk to. They're both so funny and insightful.

(36:59 - 37:16)

It's really crack me up. Different styles, which I really appreciate. Even though Laura shared some experiences where the onset dynamics weren't great overall, it seems like they found these groups for themselves where being in porn and making porn feels really empowering and good to them.

(37:17 - 37:48)

And I think it's important because it seems like a lot of the time the troubling aspects of the porn industry while they're real and valid and need to be addressed. They're often portrayed as the norm or like this is the capital T truth of what the porn industry is like. It reminds me of this one time when I was working as a production assistant on a Lust Cinema shoot and I was doing my thing and overhearing the three performers on a break and they were all talking with each other.

(37:49 - 38:03)

One of them was fairly new to porn and we were like about to shoot a big threesome scene in the kitchen. It was like the end of the film. And he was feeling kind of nervous and he was expressing this to his co-stars and he was like, I don't feel a little performance anxiety.

(38:04 - 38:28)

And they were both just so supportive in listening to him and making him feel good. And I just remember feeling in that moment like God, I wish people who didn't work in porn could see this type of thing on like a well run porn set. I wish that I could just live stream this to the world and be like, look at them role modeling this really great conversation.

(38:29 - 38:40)

Like someone's expressing their needs and other people are listening and validating it and that comfort and safety that they created. It didn't squash the sexiness. It was still such a hot scene.

(38:40 - 39:12)

It's really what Jen's talking about, right, with within a sexual scenario. Like you need to be able to pump the brakes or set a boundary and also play an experiment and like all of that needs to be able to happen. And I think it's so powerful that Jen's modeling that kind of sexual experience in porn because it is one of the most prevalent complaints that we hear about porn is that as a viewer watching it gives us these tilted versions of what sex looks like.

(39:12 - 39:33)

So next week is all about what we learn from porn and how some people in the industry are getting creative with depicting more realistic sex and others are helping us better contextualize everything that we're currently seeing. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of porn nerds. I'm Kels and I'm Tess.

(39:33 - 39:47)

You can find more from us at getsquirmy.com. And please follow us on Instagram at Squirm and right interview this show. It really helps. Here is a sneak peek at what's coming up next week.

(39:50 - 40:03)

Sex education should be more explicit than not. Of course, all types of education need to be age appropriate. But at the same time, it's not this thing that all once you're done with high school, you know everything about sex.

(40:03 - 40:16)

Like we're always learning about sex. We're always learning about ourselves. And for that reason, we also need the materials to be able to understand ourselves better and to better relate to others.

(40:25 - 40:43)

Porn Nerds is a co-production of Boom Integrated, a division of John Marshall Media, and Squirm. It is an educational podcast made for your entertainment and curiosity. Any opinions shared by the hosts and guests are solely their own and not intended as therapy or medical advice.

(40:44 - 40:46)

Thanks for being here and we'll see you next week.