Finding Sanctuary in Progressive Theology with Liz Coolidge Jenkins

Have you ever felt the ground shift beneath your feet as your beliefs and the world you knew began to unravel? Liz Coolidge Jenkins, a powerhouse of thought on faith and feminism, joins us to recount her extraordinary evolution from conservative evangelicalism to a champion of LGBTQ affirming theology. Her book "Nice Churchy Patriarchy: Reclaiming Women's Humanity from Evangelicalism," serves as a backdrop for our rich dialogue on the profound moments that redefine one's understanding of gender roles and spiritual inclusivity. Together, we peel back the layers of traditional interpretations that have long confined women's roles in the church, urging a return to the equity exemplified by Jesus himself.

Navigating the murky waters of gender inequality in church leadership, this episode casts a revealing light on the plight of women within 'soft complementarian' communities. Liz's experiences expose the gaps between responsibility and authority, and the consequent struggles of women leaders who are often seen but not heard. We question the restrictive readings of Paul's letters and entertain the possibility of a church where women's voices are amplified, and their leadership is both welcomed and respected. It's a moving testament to the pursuit of a faith practice that honors every member's contribution, irrespective of gender.

Finally, we venture into the progressive church landscape, seeking sanctuaries that resonate with our deepest values, especially in the realm of LGBTQ affirmation. Liz underscores the significance of fostering spaces that permit independent belief formation, free from the heavy hand of indoctrination. We touch upon the wisdom gleaned from "Braiding Sweetgrass" by Robin Wall Kimmerer and contemplate how embracing diverse perspectives and lessons from nature can lead to a more holistic and equitable spiritual journey. It's a call to explore the intersection of faith, nature, and diversity, and to embrace the beauty of a truly inclusive religious experience.

You can find Liz on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/lizcoolj and https://www.instagram.com/postevangelicalprayers

You can find more about Liz and her book Nice Churchy Patriarchy at https://www.lizcooledgejenkins.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:15

Aloha, god Pod. Today we're here with none other than Liz Coolidge-Jenkins. Liz is a writer, preacher, former college campus minister, as well as the author of Nice Churchy Patriarchy Reclaiming Women's Humanity from Evangelicalism. She lives in Seattle area with her husband and their black cat, athena. Her writing on faith, feminism and social justice can be found at Sojourners, the Christian Century, christians for Social Action, feminism and Religion and Red Letter Christians, among other places. She also blogs at Liz Coolidge Jenkinscom and Instagram, as at Liz Cool J, and post evangelical prayers.

Speaker 1: 1:59

When not writing or reading, liz enjoys hiking, swimming, attempting to grow vegetables and drinking a lot of tea. So today we will be spilling the tea with Liz and let's welcome her on the show, all right? So here we're with Liz Coolidge Jenkins. Hi, thanks for having me here. It's really nice to have you and I wanted to just dive right in and let's go ahead and start talking about your leaving the church story. I know we talked before like when did things start to crack and break for you? I feel like that's always a good way to get the conversation started.

Speaker 2: 2:41

Yeah, totally, and I would say I don't want to be misleading here, I do still go to church. I would say that I made a break from evangelicalism or kind of a more conservative variety of church so I grew up going to kind of a mainline Protestant Presbyterian PCUSA church. So I grew up going to kind of a mainline Protestant Presbyterian PCUSA church and then it was really in college that I kind of accidentally wandered into a more conservative evangelical part of the church. So it was kind of that that I wandered into and then over many years locked out of. And I think that there was kind of there were a couple of things that happened.

Speaker 2: 3:33

One was that over time the church's restrictions and limitations on women in ministry and the church's view of gender and gender roles in general became more and more clear to me over time and more and more frustrating. I think I started out kind of thinking okay, I don't really buy into these different conservative gender roles for men and women, but this is something we can agree to disagree about. Maybe it's not that big a deal, but over time it became a bigger deal to me. Deal, but over time it became a bigger deal to me and then along kind of around the same time or toward the later part of my involvement in these conservative evangelical spaces, I slowly became LGBTQ affirming when I was not before.

Speaker 2: 4:13

That was a journey for me, right A lot of soul searching, a lot of reading, listening to queer folks, examining scripture passages and theology all of that you know. The more that I studied and read and thought and prayed about things and tried to listen to people, the more affirming I became, and that was really a breaking point between me and the church that I was a part of and that I was on staff with that I worked for full time in college ministry for a couple of years. So that's some of my story.

Speaker 1: 4:42

Yeah, that makes sense. I recently heard it's interesting you said that because I recently heard someone speaking about, you know, being gay and the relationship to the evangelical church and how the church is kind of in our political systems and everything in general, and he made the comment that you know, it's really just more of men hating women, because when there are men who are taking on feminine qualities and being more feminine, that's really just more of the same. It's like shaming femininity and womanhood in general. So I found that really interesting. I was like, yeah, that totally tracks.

Speaker 2: 5:23

Yeah, it's deeply connected misogyny and homophobia for sure, and also, I think, the feeling some people have of being threatened by same-sex relationships or same-sex marriages, because there isn't usually that gendered power dynamic that people expect in heterosexual marriages and that feels threatening.

Speaker 1: 5:41

Yeah, that's a really good. That's a really good point as well. That's awesome. Yeah, it's hard to buy into the the everybody is like everyone who is in the LGBTQ plus community is just like condemned because of who they are. That's it's really. Plus community is just like condemned because of who they are. That's it's really. It doesn't really go hand in hand with that message of Jesus and as more and more comes out about, you know, the people who wrote the Bible and people who are involved in the Bible, like there was already existing quite a bit you know, of same sex, like orientation, so, yeah, it's interesting how that's gotten convoluted over this time. So your book, nice Churchy Patriarchy really piqued my interest and I've been following along with your work since, you know, for a couple months now and for one the title is, of course, very intriguing but also someone still in who is still, you know, in the church. Let's talk about your book and like where you're coming from with that.

Speaker 2: 6:53

Yeah, totally so. I think when I had that experience of kind of choosing to no longer be involved in conservative evangelical spaces, I found myself just with a ton to unpack and process from that time, because I was pretty involved in a conservative evangelical church for about 11 years total and then I went to a seminary that's kind of a moderate evangelical seminary but still kind of in that evangelical space. So it was really after seminary that I had a chance to step back and kind of look for all of the voices and theologies and experiences and interpretations that seminary didn't necessarily want to expose me to. And it's a little bit more complicated than that. I mean, seminary was definitely a mixed bag for me and I learned a lot of things that were really good and really helpful and that show up in the book too. And at the same time I think there were a lot of limitations to the ways that people were thinking about things and a lot of voices that we didn't hear from but should have.

Speaker 2: 8:00

So, yeah, this book is coming out of that journey of just like processing all of those experiences I had as a woman in evangelical spaces, that kind of felt like, oh, this is not right, Like something about this feels gendered. How do we understand that more deeply and name what's going on so that we can talk about it and deal with it and see if we can do better? So yeah, it's really kind of a mix of a memoir of some of those experiences, and the second half reflects more on how church communities can be places where people of all genders can flourish and what resources we can draw on within the Christian tradition to move in that direction.

Speaker 1: 8:42

Speaking of those resources, would you talk a little bit more about that?

Speaker 2: 8:47

Yeah, I think I mean you're saying that the history of Christians and I guess what people call homosexuality, often within the church, is really complicated and long, so that's also true for the history of women in church.

Speaker 2: 9:04

So I think like, yeah, I think it's really helpful to know that there are historical theologians within the Christian tradition going back all 2000 years who had a lot of different opinions about women and ministry and leadership and what that looks like. Like. There's always been a diversity of opinions and kind of a push and pull between these patriarchal forces and forces that are empowering and liberating toward women. So, yeah, there's a lot of resources we can draw on from historical theologians to scripture and kind of thinking about scripture and interpreting scripture in different ways and listening to different people interpret scripture, because when your pastor is a man and you only hear men preaching all the time, that's only one perspective and there are often things that people with privilege miss when we read scripture. So, yeah, I'm thinking of things like like theology, like scripture, thinking of songs and liturgy and kind of reconsidering what church looks and sounds like and what our prayers look and sound like. Kind of all of that, considering leadership and representation, that's really important. So yeah, kind of all of that together that's really important.

Speaker 1: 10:22

so, yeah, kind of all of that together, yeah, um, so what was your journey? Like? I know, for a lot of us, like we were raised in the evangelicalism, so that didn't really stand out, as I mean, I think internally, like my soul was like this isn't right, but also it was very much just the way that things were. So to be able to like see that and be like this isn't right yeah, it is. You feel like that's because you weren't, you weren't raised in it, you didn't have that indoctrination that you were able to like to kind of point that out and be like wait, this isn't what I'm used to, or was it just like I was taught differently than this? Like what was it that stood out? That you were like this is something that's not right here.

Speaker 2: 11:02

Yeah, I do think that that helps because I don't think that I ever fully bought into the patriarchal system, and I do think that's because I was raised in a church that didn't make gender distinctions in terms of roles and leadership or eldership or anything like that, and because I was raised in a family that didn't buy into any of that patriarchal stuff, right, and I mean, I want to be a little bit careful or nuanced here, because patriarchy is kind of the water that we swim in and it does seep into more progressive spaces and more progressive families.

Speaker 2: 11:33

But at least in terms of like teaching, right, and like what my parents wanted to embody and teach and what my church wanted to embody and teach, um, it was equality, gender equality, and I think, um, yeah, so I think that entering into the evangelical world after that was kind of this huge shock to the system of like, oh, people are still debating about whether men and women should have equal roles and authority and opportunities, like I didn't realize that that still needed to be debated in the 21st century. So, yeah, I think I think that that did give me kind of a different perspective than somebody who was raised in those spaces with those teachings, with those teachings, and I think it was more a journey of figuring out what to do with that, what to do with that tension, and whether or how to speak up about it or just to let it be the way of things, as I did for a long time.

Speaker 1: 12:30

Yeah, I'm really curious what, if you remember you know, led you from this like more moderate version of Christianity into evangelicalism, because a lot of times it kind of goes the other way. Yeah, what happened there? What happened, what went wrong?

Speaker 2: 12:44

Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think there are a lot of things going on, one of which is that more conservative evangelical streams of the church tend to have a lot more of a presence on college campuses. Like they're there to recruit right. Like, I think, because of the emphasis on evangelism and wanting to get people to believe the same things that we do, they're really actively reaching out and trying to figure out what connects with college students and how to build a kind of community that people want to be a part of, and I think they're making a lot more of an effort toward that than a lot of more progressive groups. So yeah, at least at the campus I was at, there were a lot of different opportunities to get involved in Christian community and most of them were pretty evangelical.

Speaker 2: 13:33

And I think there is something that appealed to me and appeals to a lot of people about the kind of evangelical way of setting ourselves against the rest of the world or just marking ourselves as really different from the rest of the world. And I think it was clear to me that something about the broader culture that I was surrounded with wasn't working in the sense of like kind of striving for academic success and that's where your whole like, value and sense of worth lies, and striving to achieve certain measures of career success. So I think I think I felt like I wanted an alternative to that and these evangelical groups painted a compelling picture of like your worth and value is in Jesus Christ, like in being loved by God, and you belong in a Christian community, right, like you have the sense of community and people who are like-minded. I mean, I heard the phrase community of purpose recently and that's, that's what it was right and that's really appealing, and I don't know if progressive churches always articulate that in quite the same way. That can seem really appealing.

Speaker 1: 14:49

Right. What's interesting about that is like I really got into the like NXIVM documentaries and I've watched a lot of this on like cults and stuff and that does seem to be like that sense of purpose what really snags people like yeah people are searching for that sense of purpose and then the evangelical church is very much like owning, like we've got, we've got that, we've got the bag and belonging.

Speaker 2: 15:16

So yeah, and that sense of certainty like we believe the right things, like we can tell you how to think about things in a world that can be kind of confusing.

Speaker 1: 15:26

I think that could be compelling too yeah yeah, yeah, totally, because it does give you this like black and white book. It's like, as long as I'm doing this, I'm okay and that works until it doesn't. Right. You're like, oh, actually I'm not okay and I'm doing all these things works until it doesn't. You're like, oh, actually I'm not okay and I'm doing all these things. But you know, that's something that I struggle with now. Even, like in therapy, I'll be like I don't know the answer. And she's like, because there's not one and that's okay.

Speaker 2: 15:51

But yeah, you know, so there is a lot of comfort in that like but you know.

Speaker 1: 15:56

So there is a lot of comfort in that, like, ok, I'm playing by the rules, so I know I'm OK. It's stifling and as it is and as much as it can keep us small, it feels safe in its own ways for sure. So let's talk about more about your experience of leadership. You were talking about how they were passing. Like you know, you were noticing in leadership and in positions in the church how there was this inequality.

Speaker 2: 16:30

Like, in what ways did that show up? Yeah, so the community that I was a part of would consider itself soft complementarium, which I get into this a lot more in the book. But it's kind of a way of saying that, like we think that men and women should have different roles in ministry, leadership, also usually in marriage or relationships, but we're not quite as rigid and limited about it as those hard complementarian churches over there. So you know you can tell that maybe I have some feelings about that. So you know you can tell that maybe I have some feelings about that.

Speaker 2: 16:59

But the way that that took shape in the community that I was a part of was that women were not allowed to be elders, the elder board being the group of people who kind of lay leaders, who basically were responsible for making all of the major decisions for the church. It wasn't part of a broader denomination. So that was kind of where the buck stopped, like that was the leadership structure. And women were also not allowed to be one of the main teaching pastors who would preach the majority of sermons. Women were not necessarily prohibited from preaching but were limited to preaching just a couple times a year. But we're limited to preaching just a couple times a year and the logic that I heard that underlie that was that women should not be setting the theological direction of the church. So there's a lot going on there.

Speaker 2: 17:53

We unpacked a lot in the book but yeah, so there's this kind of yeah, this, this odd kind of thing where women were kind of told like, yeah, use your gifts, like, figure out what your gifts are and use them like, serve and lead totally. Oh, but not like in these specific spaces that are reserved for men. So there was kind of this confusing space to not grow up in but to grow into young adulthood and like to be a young adult. And it was this kind of confusing space where I was really encouraged to lead in some ways and to contribute to lead worship for a young adults group, to give talks, to lead the college ministry. I mean, it was basically doing the work of a pastor there. And yet at the same time I was very aware that things were really different for me because I was a woman in those spaces.

Speaker 1: 18:46

Yeah, like different in that your like your input wasn't considered outside of you know, having different responsibilities, or yeah?

Speaker 2: 18:55

Yeah, it was a lot of responsibility without a lot of authority, for sure. Or, yeah, yeah, it was a lot of responsibility without a lot of authority, for sure. Um, and you know, you think about the future and you think about, like, would I want to serve on the elder board at some point? I can't right, like, that's not available. Um, would I want to serve as a pastor at some point? Um, maybe, but only in very specific realms and not as a main preacher. Right, like, there's just kind of these limitations and then the mindsets behind those limitations seep down into everything. Yeah, like, like you said, like, is my voice heard? Is it respected? Is my work respected? Is it paid?

Speaker 1: 19:33

Right Like well enough Is yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:36

Do people want my input? Am I getting access to the information that I need? Access to All of those things?

Speaker 1: 19:42

Yeah, yeah, Wow. So in the book I know as a theologian, you do kind of go into scripture about this and I would love to dive deeper into this, breaking down for those who do still adhere to the biblical scriptures and kind of just showing this where that wasn't really the message of Jesus. And yeah, what would you like to add about that?

Speaker 2: 20:09

Yeah, yeah, I think there's a lot that's really worth digging into in terms of Jesus and women Just the fact that there were female disciples, that Jesus welcomed women to follow him in the same way that men did. I think sometimes we get a little bit confused between the terms of like apostle and disciple. And so, yes, there were these 12 men that had this kind of particular role in that culture at that time, and there were also mixed gender groups of people following Jesus, listening to him, teach, learning how to be community together and learning how to teach and lead and minister themselves. And Jesus didn't make any distinctions there in terms of what he taught or didn't teach women, and he did a lot of countercultural things in terms of welcoming women to learn from him so that they could go and teach, in terms of affirming the faith and dignity and agency of women.

Speaker 2: 21:07

I feel like there are several kind of shocking stories in the Gospels where a woman approaches Jesus to ask for something or to anoint and bless him, and the men around her are like what's she doing? This is not okay. And Jesus is like this is absolutely okay, like she knows what she wants and she's asking for it and I love that and she, her expression of devotion to me, is full of dignity and truth and goodness, and that's something all of y'all men can learn from right. It's kind of what he says. So, yeah, I think there's a lot to think about there and I think we need to kind of hold all of those things in our minds when we read some of the other passages, like in Paul's letters, that might seem more limiting.

Speaker 1: 21:50

Yeah, yeah, the more I learned about Paul, the more I realized, like, really, I think he's just a big part of the problem. Well, you know, keep Thomas in there, leave Paul out's just a big part of the problem. It's just so vital to me. It's like you know, keep Thomas in there, leave Paul out. It would have been a better book in my opinion. Maybe I'd have a little more faith still in it if that were the case. Yeah, how much I feel like of the patriarchy and of the churches we know that are in our systems comes from this doctrine of Paul and not actually from anything that Christ was saying.

Speaker 2: 22:21

Yeah, I agree, and I think it's complicated because even with Paul you'll get, like you know, one sentence where he's saying, like everybody, use your gifts and prophesy he doesn't make any gender distinctions. And the next sentence he's like okay, women, cover your heads as a sign of authority, and it's unclear what that means or in there with paul, for sure, yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:46

Or like kind of one sentence of like oh no, women shouldn't be having authority, and then the next sentence of like said my greetings the apostle junia. Like yes, there's a lot of that yeah, wow, yeah, it's a lot.

Speaker 1: 23:00

It's a lot to to break down when you get in it. But I'm curious, like, how do you see it playing out like in the systems that we're in today? I know right now there's a lot going on our political landscape with christian nationalism and this you know. I don't know if you've watched the handmaid's tale. I have watched the handmaid's tale. I know that none of it's new and then it's all based on history that has already happened. So I don't want to discredit like, especially like the, you know people who were in slavery that have experienced so much of what's happened already in the United States, by the way of what's happened in that. But it's just such a clear example of like what's.

Speaker 2: 23:45

Yeah, I mean, when I think of all that, I think of a story I tell pretty early in the book about kind of the very first time that I didn't feel totally comfortable and happy as a young woman at this evangelical church that I started going to. I was, I think, a sophomore in college and I was in this college Bible study group with the church. It was kind of a mix of students and older volunteers and we were discussing women in ministry as kind of this, you know, item of controversy or debate and one person said something like well, why not let women lead or teach or preach if they want to? Like, well, why not let women lead or teach or preach if they want to To which one of the volunteers? This guy may be in his 30s at the time like got right back, like did not miss a beat and saying, yeah, but giving people what they want isn't always what's best for them.

Speaker 2: 24:41

So, yeah, I reflect on that in the book kind of more generally. But I think it also relates, you know, very specifically to our political situation as women and this idea that we could be represented by men right, like still a vast majority of men in our political leadership and that those men have the right to make decisions for us and to say what we should or should not do with our bodies, right? So this idea of like yeah, like we are the ones, like we, yeah, we're the ones who get to decide what's right, as opposed to the people most impacted by a decision I think there's a lot going on there.

Speaker 1: 25:25

Yeah, I've also noticed like, especially lately, there's been a lot coming out of you know, like a lot of pastors you know who have been involved in like child trafficking or child pornography and all of this stuff. Like I just can't help but see, like you know I can't trace it back to the beginning, I know that you have more education in that, but I feel like it's just this control of women, this control, the situation, like it's designed to allow rape culture, to allow men to just use women, girls, however they want to, and that it's like seeped in there intentionally. I mean, if you look in our politics, it's just like kind of like there's this secret boys club. That's like, yeah, let's just keep making this happen. Like what do you see that coming from? Like why is this happening?

Speaker 2: 26:17

I don't know if I can give you why this is happening.

Speaker 2: 26:20

I mean, I do think, yeah, I totally agree, it's so deeply entrenched and I think that I mean you know, I called the book Nice Churchy Patriarchy, which is a little bit tongue in cheek but also a bit of a genuine like.

Speaker 2: 26:33

Most of the people that I knew in these spaces were well-intentioned, good-hearted people, and yet they've been misled and they're perpetuating these beliefs and theologies and systems that were developed by people who did not have good intentions, right yeah, who wanted to control and to set things up so that they could kind of do whatever they wanted and get away with it.

Speaker 2: 26:55

So, yeah, I think that's all wrapped up together. I feel like I was fortunate to be a part of a church where I don't think that there were some of those very publicized, very kind of extreme issues of sexual abuse and that sort of thing at least not that I was aware of. And yet it's these same theologies and these same structures and systems that enable that, like anytime, women's voices are believed less than men's are, um, like that just kind of sets up this system where those sorts of things can just run unchecked well, and this hierarchy right where the highest positions are held by men who generally look out for each other in these respects and have a way of just like shrugging off these offenses like they're not a big deal or like they're misunderstood or something like that.

Speaker 1: 27:52

Just kind of horrifying, if you ask me. But yeah, from my experience, like even not publicized it's I don't. I can't think of a single church that we visited or were involved in where at least one of the girls I grew up in weren't sexually assaulted by one of the elders and that it was never made public, it was never known. I only know because of my friendship and relationship with these people. So I also feel like it's a lot more prevalent than what people realize, but that people aren't speaking because men do hold so much power in these situations.

Speaker 2: 28:24

Oh, totally. And there's also so much pressure in terms of like, oh, you don't want to make a particular church look bad, right, you don't want to like hinder the witness of the gospel. Like, no, the witness of the gospel is the honest truth of what's happening, right. Like, yeah, god is not threatened by the truth coming out.

Speaker 1: 28:44

A particular church or its leadership might be, but yeah, right, that's a really great point to make and that's something that, yeah, I feel like it is is just trying to protect. Oh, we don't want people to throw the baby out with the bathwater, basically, so we're just not going to give it any, you know, show you the bathwater.

Speaker 2: 29:02

Right yeah, just to look.

Speaker 1: 29:04

Yeah, which leaves women and young girls very vulnerable in these situations. Um, yeah, so that's um, definitely a challenge, but I'm like, with what we're seeing in our politics, like, do you feel like that's solely evangelicalism that's having this effect on this christian, christian nationalism, or do you see, like, how do you, what do you think? They're not all claiming like the evangelical church, but they are very much like keeping with these very strict tropes of what women should and should not be able to choose or decide or whatever.

Speaker 2: 29:47

Yeah, I think it's really hard because I think religion is so often used as a way of controlling people and you know there's some very powerful people who picked up on that, especially like even more so over the years right, and use it as a way to manipulate and control and get people to vote in the way that they want them, to light and control and get people to vote in the way that they want them to. And I think a lot of people in America identify as Christian, even if they don't necessarily have active involvement in a church community, and so I think there's just a ton of power, even beyond kind of actively involved evangelicals, for politicians to be able to say God wants this or doesn't want this, and people kind of fall in line whether or not that's actually what God actually wants.

Speaker 1: 30:33

Yeah, right, well, that's a really good point. Yeah, interesting.

Speaker 2: 30:38

So you are still in a church, you're involved in a church now yeah and you talking about that evolution and how you were able to find a home that felt, feels more aligned with your values yeah, yeah, so I go to kind of a progressive Presbyterian church now, so it's a little bit of a full circle thing in terms of the same denomination that I grew up in, although it is a very different kind of church, a lot smaller and a lot more leadership from people of color, a lot more multicultural and multi-socioeconomic class, which is also a difference between where I live now and where I grew up.

Speaker 2: 31:13

So that's part of it too. But yeah, I think you know, once I left those evangelical spaces, I really wanted to find something different. I really I feel like I found so much value in so much of the Christian tradition and didn't want to give up those like good parts, but I knew I needed to find a very different sort of community than the ones that have felt oppressive right to me and to others, like queer folks and people of color in many cases too. So, yeah, I was really looking for a church that has some diverse leadership and some different ways of preaching and different ways of thinking about things and just a lot more openness, like I feel like that's something I really appreciate about my church now.

Speaker 2: 32:03

Like there's a lot more openness to different ways of thinking about things and a lot more openness to still being in community together, across different experiences and perspectives, and I feel like that's what I want for church. Right, like that nobody's getting kicked out of this community because they're not towing the line on certain conservative issues Like that's that was never what church was meant to be. Conservative issues like that's that was never what church was meant to be. Um, so I think I, yeah, I just appreciate that like freedom to think about things and come to whatever conclusions I come to, and we can still be friends.

Speaker 1: 32:37

Right, like we can still be church yeah, yeah, well, and even like you're talking about being kicked out, like even. I just want to make a distinction, like, if that's not what you see, oh, my church isn't kicking people out for this but are they getting up at the pulpit and like calling out everything you're doing without saying your name or some instances, or you have a hundred people whispering about what you're doing behind?

Speaker 1: 33:03

your back giving you funny looks and you're feeling like you can still control someone without just like directly saying those words to them, but within other ways that become, I feel like, normalized within a lot of these spaces.

Speaker 2: 33:17

Oh, totally, and that was definitely my experience at the church I was a part of in my twenties. Right, I was not kicked out and I go into this more in the book, but I mean, in a nutshell, what happened was that because I was becoming LGBTQ affirming, I was not able to work at the church long term in the pastoral type position, so I did not get kicked out. But there's this very clear line drawn of, like the ways that I was and was not welcome to serve and lead and the gifts that I was or was not welcome to use in that context and offer. Right and like anytime that you're told, yeah, we want you to be a part of us, but like change this about yourself, or like hide this about yourself. Or like use these gifts but not these ones, right, like that's, that's not right and I think that's you know that's probably generally time to leave?

Speaker 1: 34:05

Yeah, totally, unlike you were saying before, like the hiding or look this way, or when you're, when you're trying to control the way someone thinks by controlling the narrative of what they're receiving, that is literally indoctrination. You know, so many, even parents, like in the evangelical church, feel like that's totally fine to indoctrinate their kids because they're saving their soul. I know that I experienced that personally, like my mom still, you know, feels like all of that was what was best for me and any guilt or shame or anything that results for me not being in line with that is deserved and what is needed to get me back in line. But you know, I just want to invite people to consider that, like if, like you said, if it's truth, you don't need to protect it. Like that, if it's truth, you don't need to manipulate it. Like why just you know why would someone do that if they were telling the truth? Yeah, totally, the truth speaks for itself. So I just, yeah, like to point that out in these conversations, because it's those little things that we miss. But those are the big things. Yeah, really big. They feel like small distinctions, but they're having a very large effect on on the way that we operate and grow and learn. And yeah, um, and I tried to do that. You know, even as I'm like creating this podcast and like recording I can, I can notice myself like wanting to something that I believe in feel is wonderful, like wanting to like promote that and just having to step myself back self, back in. That is very much my goal to not indoctrinate anything to anybody, but to put conversations and information out there and let people decide for themselves.

Speaker 1: 35:43

And, coming from an environment where indoctrination is completely like normal and and coming from an environment where indoctrination is completely like normal and, you know, encouraged, it's kind of in that wiring, you know, I got to stop and be like am I indoctrinating right now? You know, like even with my nieces or whatever, it's like wait a second, how am I going to say this? So that it's allowing them space to figure out the answer for themselves, which, yeah, it's just such an important thing and I feel like that's something that and maybe this is just a generalization, but I think that that's like a more feminine quality in general. Is that openness, that pulling back and allowing things to happen instead of that pushing kind of forcing? So, yeah, I'm just kind of curious, like with what you've seen. We've we've talked about the patriarchy, but in femininity and using feminine energy and having women in these positions in the church, what kind of difference do you feel that would make?

Speaker 2: 36:37

Oh, yeah, oh, I think it makes a huge difference and I mean I want to add a little, a little bit of nuance to it in terms of you know, there are these cultural constructions we have of masculinity and femininity, and individual people do not always fit those right, like we all embody aspects of each in different ways.

Speaker 1: 36:54

Exactly, yeah and masculine, feminine, not like yeah, yeah, because yes and be feminine and women who could be, but it's more of like that energy and I think we both, we embody both, right right yeah, and that feminine energy is so needed.

Speaker 2: 37:11

Yeah, like you said, um, it's been so devalued, like all of those like more gentle, nurturing, relational, um, open-minded, collaborative I feel like is a good word kind of qualities as opposed to those aggressive, dominating, violent qualities, right Like that have been associated with masculinity and have been valued, right Like that's kind of what gets people into positions of power usually and keeps them there. So, yeah, I think when people are embodying some of those more feminine characteristics, it's just better leadership, right Like it's like more collaborative leadership gets more different opinions into the room and helps us figure out what we might be missing when we're making decisions, and as opposed to just kind of one person thinking that they know everything, like that's never what's healthiest for a community. So, yeah, there's a lot to unpack there.

Speaker 1: 38:07

Yeah, totally Well, and I feel like yeah, just from what I've been like reading and understanding is like in matriarchal societies. That doesn't mean like women have the power, like it is in a patriarchal society. It's more inclusive and community and like everybody sits at a round table instead of a man standing at a pulpit. Yeah, so do you see more of that in this progressive like space that you found?

Speaker 2: 38:41

Yeah, I mean I think you know we still have a lot of the kind of traditional structures of church, but I do think that there's ways that our pastor, who's a woman, and our leadership kind of plays with that and tries different things. I mean, our pastor shares the pulpit a ton right, like she's not there preaching every Sunday, even though she's an awesome preacher. And I really appreciate that. That she's intentionally bringing in different voices and different experiences, different kinds of teaching, and sometimes even within the same sermon we'll have like two or three people in conversation with each other and it's a little bit more interactive. Or sometimes, you know, she'll ask for kind of input from the congregation and people's thoughts. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of different ways of kind of experimenting with that preaching thing and kind of how we do church. And yeah, yeah, so I do think it's different. I feel like it's. You know, there's ways that we're still figuring things out, but yeah, I was just kind of wondering.

Speaker 1: 39:49

We were speaking earlier about that. You know we're talking about the energies of the more dominating masculine. I can't help but wonder if that is exacerbated by this like emphasis on power, like if there were more of an equal system that men would be able to experience and feel into more of those feminine qualities that they have every right to feel, like you know, stuck in that Because it seems harmful to both right. It seems totally like liberation is never one sided right.

Speaker 2: 40:16

Right and like nobody should be forced into the like submissive, passive kind of role and nobody should be forced into the dominating, aggressive role. Right, like we're all meant to be equals and community with each other and I think men and women, from the way that we're socialized, often need to kind of move in different directions but like meet in the middle right.

Speaker 1: 40:40

Yeah, yeah. So what would you? What would you say to someone who's kind of wondering wait, is this what's happening in my church? Like, is it just me, because you know there's a lot of gaslighting in there from other people?

Speaker 2: 40:57

Like, how would you speak to someone who is kind of questioning this for themselves? Yeah, I think that's a great question. So much gaslighting, so there's so much of that like oh you're the only one with this problem, maybe it's just you.

Speaker 2: 41:14

I so much of that, like oh, you're the only one with this problem, maybe it's just you.

Speaker 2: 41:15

I go to that in the book too.

Speaker 2: 41:15

So, yeah, I hope that people who might be listening to this and can relate to some of this and see some of this in their church communities yeah, I definitely hope that you know that you're not alone, that this is not just you and not just you.

Speaker 2: 41:33

And, yeah, I think my hope is that we can kind of find one another in terms of people who are recognizing some of the forms that patriarchy takes and wanting to push back, wanting to build something different, that we can kind of find each other and build community and kind of have some honest conversations about the things that we notice and then figure out together what we want to do with that. Right, like, I feel like my hope with the book was to offer a lot of resources that people can draw on as we think about these things, but it's definitely not like a specific roadmap of like do this to change things, because I think that's really something we need to wrestle with in our own communities, because every community is so different, um, and really sort through, like where might god be inviting me to push for change and where might god be inviting me to leave and find something different that feels empowering and liberating?

Speaker 1: 42:20

um, I think we all deserve that kind of space and shouldn't feel guilty about seeking it, so, yeah, Well, and the book is like it's an easy read and I think it's great because, even though every story is different, there is something very for one. I feel like there's always common threads. There are always common threads defined in stories, and storytelling is just such a powerful way to realize that you're not alone in what you're experiencing and to see parallels and be like, oh, maybe I have noticed a little bit of that happening, you know, and kind of give you some support along the way. So I do, you know, recommend it as a great place to start if you are questioning on this journey. But I'm curious, let's just make believe here. Curious, just let's just make believe here. If you, what would you envision like a?

Speaker 2: 43:14

church system looking like under equality. That's a great question and I think could also look really different in different communities. But yeah, I mean, I think you know a church that's, you know, made some good progress toward gender equality would have at least equal representation in leadership, both in pastoral staff and if they have an elder board on that committee, I think you know women's and men's voices would be heard equally right, like there's all those depressing stories about how much men talk more than women in your average meeting, even though women are perhaps perceived to talk more. So we'd really be moving towards some very intentional like equal speaking time, right, and equal hearing of different voices.

Speaker 2: 44:01

I think you know we'd be preaching a lot more about women in scripture, like noticing those stories and kind of approaching scripture with a feminist perspective of like where are the women, what are they doing, what are they not doing? Where might they have been if they're not explicitly mentioned in the text? Right? What might they have been doing that was countercultural or revolutionary? How are they limited and how are they maybe pushing back against those limitations, like all those questions I think would be a regular part of our scripture conversations. So, yeah, those are some of the things. I think we talk about God in different ways, right Like we often have these very masculine sounding ways of talking about God. Even if we don't necessarily believe that God is a man, especially an old white man sitting up there in the sky, the ways that we talk about God are often still very like masculine coded. So I think we would rethink all of that.

Speaker 1: 44:58

Yeah, yeah. Well, in that coding, like I feel like it's playing out in so many ways because, you know, our country is built on evangelicalism, basically, um, that the way that we're relating to our environment, to the planet, to each other, that it is this very masculine energy take of dominion, like it belongs to us. You know, the more I like lean back into the feminine, the more I realize things that I never would have thought of before. You know, like I'm a photographer and recently I was photographing and there was like a little bee on a flower and my camera wasn't focusing and I was like wait, I haven't even asked permission, like, if I can do this, like I'm objectifying this, it doesn't belong to me, you know, and that was just like a realization of like, oh wait, this doesn't belong to me.

Speaker 1: 45:46

I don't collect shells off the beach anymore because they don't belong to me. You know, like I don't. It just having a like a different way of relating in this like seat of feminine, what do you, what do you feel like would be like in in a more feminine society and a society where the church was more you equal in their teaching of the masculine and the feminine and not like demonizing women from the very start of humanity and all of this craziness Like. What do you feel like that would look like if in this equal biblical understanding, how that would play out in our society right now?

Speaker 2: 46:28

Yeah, that's a good question and I appreciate what you say about different ways of engaging with earth and all of her creatures. That's, that's huge right, yeah. And I think in the last couple chapters of the book I get into a couple things, one of which is how we view productivity and kind of value and people's value. I think if we approach that with a more feminine energy, I think we would see the value of all people. We wouldn't have these hierarchies of who is kind of more productive or efficient and therefore more valuable than others, than others, um, and we would have a lot more just like room and appreciation for the gifts, um, of stay-at-home parents, um, of all sorts of different kind of people who are not like in that, like dominant, aggressive, like ceo role, um, but who are, yeah, artists, yeah, artists, people with disabilities, like all sorts of different kinds of ways of living life. I think we would see a lot more value to it and have a lot more and our environment and how we approach this kind of creative world that we live in, and I think there would be a lot less of that like subdue and dominate the earth and more of like engaging in respectful ways and observing and seeing what we can learn from the natural world.

Speaker 2: 48:15

I really enjoyed Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer Beautiful beautiful book.

Speaker 1: 48:20

Just finished that one yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:23

And yeah, I mean, among other things, I was really struck by the way that she writes about plants and how they've been here so much longer than humans have and they figured out how to live and like we can learn from them. Like they figured out how to live sustainably and lovingly and gently in ways that are good for kind of the whole ecosystem, and that's what we have kind of failed to do right Like as like white US humans and in this system that we live in, like yeah. So I think that kind of wisdom is what we need to move forward in this world of climate change and everything. That's the kind of energy that we need.

Speaker 1: 49:04

Yeah, I'm curious because I haven't been deep in that Bible for a real long time. You're just talking about productivity and that, for me, just ties so much into white supremacy and we're always supposed to be producing, producing, producing instead of being or living. And is there anything in the Bible that tells us that we need to be productive, like I mean, of course we need to exist in, like you know, but what does the Bible say about that?

Speaker 2: 49:35

Ooh, I mean, I don't think that that's an idea that people got from the Bible. I think there are ways to twist the Bible to fit into it, whether that's talking about you know, go and make disciples of all nations. Like we've got to be going and going and evangelizing all the time and that's our purpose for being here. We've got to do it as much as possible and convert as many people as possible. Like all that is not really in scripture, but you can kind of see how one might get there. There's also I've been reflecting on first and second Thessalonians recently and one of the things that Paul says there is something like mind your own business, live quietly and work with your hands.

Speaker 1: 50:22

I'll take that one, yeah, right.

Speaker 2: 50:25

But then in the next dollar bill, mind your business, right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 50:34

But then in the next, in his second letter to the Thessalonian church, he goes more in the direction of like y'all really should be working Otherwise, like you shouldn't be getting free food. So there's this kind of like you can see how that could be twisted into some weird things. But there's also, as with many parts of the Bible, very specific times and places and contexts that these things were written into, and scholars think that possibly one of the things that was going on there was that people thought that Jesus was coming back real soon and so they just kind of stopped doing the things of normal life that would like provide for themselves. So it's not necessarily like go be more productive, more, just like yeah. Like like do do your work right, like don't kind of give up on this life and the things that God might be calling you to do here because you think that the end is really soon. So I think that's a very different kind of message, message that like go be more efficient and produce more.

Speaker 1: 51:31

So yeah, it's interesting to me how that's become such a like theme of our existence, right, and everybody's so attached to this like biblical way of living that I'm like that's not what I got from it, right? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 51:45

and capitalism was schizophrenic right, yeah, there's a lot going on. I think that we don't quite get on just like a first literal reading of it, especially if we try to transfer it really directly into our time and culture.

Speaker 1: 51:59

Yeah, where everything is really really so, so different. Plus, I believe there's something in that slowing down and being with nature, and being with nature, like part of me believes that that's intentional, because in those spaces is where we really connect with God. Like all you know, the source energy that created life, like all of that you know, is found in those quiet spaces, it's found in rest, it's found in nature, it's found in, you know, this softness. So I can't help but think that that's by design, that it's kind of shifted us into this very hard, like masculine energy oh, totally.

Speaker 2: 52:36

And when you know some streams of Christianity kind of make people think that God is only found in the church, only found in that like space or building or with churchy people or in your like prayer closet for your little personal quiet time, right, like if we're kind of trying to limit where God can be found yeah, we're, they're cutting people off from a lot of places that God is actually found in our natural world.

Speaker 1: 53:02

Yeah, and from each other, because it's diversity Like I love. I love traveling. For that reason, I love to see how different people live and think and and operate and you know, I just feel like there's so much of like seeing the expansiveness of what God is by diversity.

Speaker 2: 53:21

good, you know, instead of this, like it's got to be this binary of how everything, everything works right like like christian or not, and you can only learn from and grow with the people who are christian.

Speaker 1: 53:35

Yeah, yeah, um, when there's so much to learn. You know I talk about this a lot from you know trans people I you know in hawaii and a lot of native american cultures. You know it's the two spirits, like they they're blessed to like have both this, you know, masculine and feminine, like blooming so, like together, it within them, and all of this wisdom from both, and like there's just so much wisdom to be found there, like in the diversity. Oh, totally yeah, which I mean what I remember from Jesus, like he was hanging out with different people.

Speaker 1: 54:08

Like he was hanging out with people who agreed with him.

Speaker 2: 54:12

Yeah, yeah, he was criticized a ton for hanging out with the wrong kinds of people. Yeah, whereas what are Christians criticized for now?

Speaker 1: 54:20

Like not that right, right, right, totally. Yeah, that's interesting. Well, this has been a really interesting conversation. Before I let you go, I'm going to leave you with if somebody is in a situation where they're questioning, where they're at questioning their faith, wanting to break things down, feeling afraid, what direction would you send them in? Yeah, I have to give you a good phrase, however you want.

Speaker 2: 54:49

I would send them in the direction that God is calling them. Yeah, but I mean I would encourage them to seek out a sense of I don't know if calling is quite the right word, but is there like an invitation to really push for change, or is there kind of a freedom and release to go elsewhere? Because I think that's a really personal thing that we all have to wrestle with and find people to wrestle with that, with people who get it. And yeah, I mean I think I hope for people to take courage and take heart, knowing that these systems have been around a long time and we are not the first to struggle against them. We're not the first to try to build something different.

Speaker 2: 55:36

There's a ton of resources that we can draw on to do so, and trying to do something different doesn't mean that we leave the parts of God and the parts of faith community that were actually really good for us. It's not this all or nothing thing, but there's a ton of different forms that faith can take and even within Christianity, a ton of different forms that Christianity can take. So I hope it's encouraging to hear that I think there is a community out there that would. That would be good right, that would be empowering and freeing and and good yeah yeah, I think that's great.

Speaker 1: 56:13

it's great for people to understand that, that it doesn't have to be one or the other. You don't have to completely leave that behind if it's still feeling aligned for you. There's safe spaces. Um, there are safe spaces, is this? You have to look for them. And she didn't burst into flames. We're both sitting here. No, no, light struck. She's got a big smile on her face. If you're watching like, everybody's okay here, we question things, we found different ways and everybody's doing all right, right, yeah, awesome. Well, if you haven't yet check out Liz's book Nice Churchy Patriarchy, I'm going to link everything in the description so if anybody wants to follow up on that. Thank you so much for your time, liz. Thank you so much. This is great. All right, have a great day.

Speaker 2: 57:02

You too.