In this episode, I had a great conversation with entrepreneur, speaker, and best-selling author, Ron Tite, who has been an award-winning advertising writer and Creative Director for some of the world’s most respected brands.
Together, we delve into the shift from profit-driven approaches to purposeful business practices that foster both personal and professional growth.
We discuss the vital connection between a company's purpose and its revenue, emphasize the importance of clear communication, and share practical steps to translate lofty mission statements into vibrant corporate cultures.
Key Takeaways:
Ron Tite links:
Hi, I'm your podcast host Keita Demming: Author, Advisor, Thought Partner & Coach.
I'm an award-winning educator and coach with a PhD in Adult Education and Workplace Learning who works to transform companies into places that are idea-driven and people-centered.
At The Covenant Group, I design training programs and coach entrepreneurs and business leaders to meet their strategic goals and build their businesses.
In my book, Strategy to Action: Run Your Business Without It Running You, I introduce an effective and straightforward tool to elevate your skills as a business professional and navigate the corporate world. The book offers practical insights on transforming strategies into tangible results.
Follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, and subscribe to my Newsletter.
In this episode, I had a great conversation with entrepreneur, speaker, and best-selling author, Ron Tite, who has been an award-winning advertising writer and Creative Director for some of the world’s most respected brands.
Together, we delve into the shift from profit-driven approaches to purposeful business practices that foster both personal and professional growth.
We discuss the vital connection between a company's purpose and its revenue, emphasize the importance of clear communication, and share practical steps to translate lofty mission statements into vibrant corporate cultures.
Key Takeaways:
Ron Tite links:
Hi, I'm your podcast host Keita Demming: Author, Advisor, Thought Partner & Coach.
I'm an award-winning educator and coach with a PhD in Adult Education and Workplace Learning who works to transform companies into places that are idea-driven and people-centered.
At The Covenant Group, I design training programs and coach entrepreneurs and business leaders to meet their strategic goals and build their businesses.
In my book, Strategy to Action: Run Your Business Without It Running You, I introduce an effective and straightforward tool to elevate your skills as a business professional and navigate the corporate world. The book offers practical insights on transforming strategies into tangible results.
Follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, and subscribe to my Newsletter.
That. What do you fundamentally believe? Shareholder value era, shareholder primacy era is dead. We're now in the purpose era. That if you focus on purpose and execute against purpose, a great indirect side benefit of that is shareholder value. But focusing on shareholder value is not the way to drive it. So if you focus on purpose, have a sense of fundamental belief in why you do something, or you're Simon Sinek fans, you're why. That's not about cause. Purpose isn't. Cause. Purpose is strategically linked to where you make your money. It's not about human rights and it's not about the environment and it's not about you know the cause du jour. It is fundamentally why you do what you do to make the money you do.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to another episode of Conversations with Keita Deming. Today I'll be talking with Ron Tite, who's really a leader in the branding space. He's a keynote speaker, he's a comedian, he's quite the interesting man and today we dive into all kinds of issues around our two key questions how to become better people in business and how to become better business people. I hope you enjoyed today's episode with Ron and if you'd like to learn more about this podcast, you can join my mailing list at keytelmycom or subscribe to this podcast wherever you get podcasts, and if you'd like to support my work, check out my book Strategy to Action. Hope you enjoyed today's episode. So, ron, for people who have no idea who you are, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 1:A little bit about me. I'm 53 years old, I live in Toronto, I'm a dad of two very young children three and a half and five and a half and I'm the founder chief creative officer of Toronto Agency Church and State. I'm a speaker, two-time author and Toronto Blue Jays season ticket holder.
Speaker 2:Nice, nice, nice. I can't hold any of those things against you, none of those things against you. None of those things against you, right? So before we get into it, tell us a little bit about what's the work that most inspires you at the moment.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting because I have very applied projects with our clients. So our clients include Google and Walmart, and Centennial College and Green Shield and a bunch of people like that, and so each of those has very different challenges and we're at various stages of those challenges for each of them, some on the really ultra important end, like for Google, we're doing all their work for Bill C-18 in Canada. So for those Canadian listeners, this is the Online News Act, and so that's huge. That's absolutely massive and fundamentally will decide how we as consumers interact with news over the next little while. So that's huge.
Speaker 1:But at the same time, there are organizations like Seven Mindsets in the US and Spatial Data Logic in the US, who are at a really critical point where they are rebranding and we're doing all the strategy and all the creative for them. So this is at such a massive pivot and kind of crossroads in their life as a company that it's really important for them. So you can see the kind of the range of stuff that I and that we work on, and so that's the kind of stuff that keeps me going. It's just like really unique problems by really unique clients and really unique spaces, and that extends into the speaking space, too, where I just speak to a wide variety of clients all over the place.
Speaker 2:And then. So the focus of this podcast is how do we become better people in business and how do we become better business people. I thought we'd begin by you sharing some lessons around how you think you become a better person in business.
Speaker 1:Well, it's certainly we need it to be One of the. The next book I'm working on is contentedly titled Now what? And one of the kind of the realizations that kind of set up that work is that as we started to not uncover but illuminate kind of social injustice that was happening in the world, we and many people started to look at at the corporate world and you know there was a whole bunch of other things going on where CEO compensation was going through the roof and the kind of the gap between kind of the working class and, and you know, senior executives um were was widening every single day. And when you look at kind of sustainability efforts and you're like just all these things going on, there's a ton happening right now. And you know there was a kind of a quote from the ceo of mccain who said you know, I think there's a growing belief that the interests of of business aren't necessarily aligned with. The CEO of McCain who said you know, I think there's a growing belief that the interests of business aren't necessarily aligned with the interests of society. And we've for the longest time been living by Milton Friedman's Bible of the social responsibility of businesses to increase its profits and that's what we believed and we went through the shareholder primacy era where we voted Jack Welch CEO of the century and it was all about shareholder value, value, and that we had one constituent the shareholder, and that was it.
Speaker 1:And slowly, over time, people are kind of going maybe not, you know like maybe not, maybe that some or many, or, dare I see, even most of the problems that exist today are because of the way we have set up capitalism. The way we have set up capitalism, the way we have set up for-profit enterprise and now I'm a capitalist at heart. I think capitalist in some ways is a wonderful system that, when governed correctly by people with moral and ethical behavior kind of does kind of level the playing field. But it's kind of got out of control. So I think we do need, at this really critical juncture, we do need better people to step up, and that is absolutely critical. So I'm also inspired by what we can do. You know the ICD had a line that we worked with them on and it was. You know the future of our country will be made in its boardrooms, that where we go as a country will not be decided by government, because there are too many stakeholders, it's too complex, but we in business can actually decide the road forward, and the future of our country will be made in our boardrooms by business leaders stepping up and doing the right thing. I still firmly believe that, so I'm really inspired by what we can do.
Speaker 1:So how do we do it? How do we become better people? Well, I think you know my personal definition of leadership is leadership is taking specific actions based on the information. You have to improve the lives of the people around you. That's all it is.
Speaker 1:And so we have to consider one yes, our customers, our clients, our consumers. We have to solve their problems. We have to be good to them, and when we do that, hey, guess what? There's profit to be made and we can do well, and that profit can go into different places. So we have to treat our consumers and our customers and our clients really, really well and solve their problems. But secondly, we have to improve the lives of the people around us, our team members, who we're fortunate to work with. We have to, you know, improve the lives of the partners who may not be on the payroll but who are on the team, and we have to improve the lives of ourselves. That we have to. We can't be a better person to our team if we're not a better person to ourself. That comes with incredible self-awareness and and self-dedication to improving ourself as human beings, and when you combine all those things together, I think you end up with good people doing the right thing.
Speaker 2:And I want to ask you a personal question. I know you have quite an interesting past because you're quite open on your LinkedIn and social media and stuff. What are some of the things you think have made you have to make you a better person in business?
Speaker 1:Well, one. I grew up really poor, so I, you know, I knew that helps. It wasn't always this, this fantastic as he looked around this barren room. No, I know what it was like. I mean, I, you know, there was a period of time when we were literally living on welfare with a physically disabled mom and four kids on her own.
Speaker 1:That's not fun and that's not easy, and so in some ways, you know, yeah, sometimes you got to make sure you reconnect with that right and make sure you reconnect with that right and then make sure you don't lose touch of that. But I think that's given me perspective and I think maybe a little bit of empathy for what other people have gone through. It's also can be challenging, right. What can be challenging when there can be an arrogance that comes with that, where it's like, hey, I made it out, how come you can't make. You know, and I'm, you know, I have had many other things that have gone in my favor and have had opportunities.
Speaker 1:So it's not always, you know, equal access and opportunity. It's not all just based on finances. So, yeah, I think that's probably one of the biggest is that I've always been, you know, I worked with a director once who said it's the poor kid at the party syndrome, and he's like it doesn't matter how rich you become, in your brain you're still the poorest kid at the party and you're on the outside looking in and in some ways that has helped me out, because there's something I think really interesting about always playing the observer. I think that's where comedy comes from. I think that's where great insight comes from, when you can remove yourself and kind of hover above it and see it as an observer. So that's really helped. But yeah, I think that's probably it.
Speaker 2:So I think there would be some listeners that would be curious about I would. I would count you as a successful entrepreneur in Toronto or Canada, north America, but I think there were some listeners would be curious about how you think you went from the background you had with your mom, four kids, et cetera, to now having somebody who's on stages sharing ideas, being an entrepreneur, doing that, being a business person. I think a quick thing around that might be insightful for some of the listeners.
Speaker 1:Sure, it certainly some of the listeners Sure, it certainly wasn't the plan. I think that's the first and most important part, that there was no. You know, I wasn't 14 years old going. I want to be an entrepreneur, I'm going to get out, you know. And so I think what really helped was that there was no plan and through it all, I just really was continually curious about certain things and didn't have an ego about pursuing them.
Speaker 1:So, as a great example, I was always curious about stand-up comedy, loved it as a craft. I think I really wanted to kind of dig into it and was curious about how do you do you write material, how do you come up with stuff, how do you perform at it? You know like, I was just really curious about that. And so what's the best way to you know, kind of be curious is to do it. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do stand-up comedy, I'm gonna do that. And I didn't do a five minute open mic, I did a 45 minute headlining set on my first night of ever doing comedy. And, um, I had a colleague who was going to come to the show and she was like what if you're not funny, you know like? And I said, oh, that's hilarious. Dark sense of humor. I said that's really hilarious that this egomaniac thinks he's hilarious and so plans to do 45 minutes and two minutes in discovers he's actually not funny.
Speaker 1:So I just I didn't, I wasn't afraid of failure in that. I was more curious about the pursuit. And so when you're curious about something and you're not as concerned about the outcome, or you're confident in who you are regardless of the outcome, that allows you to be a lot more free. It allows you to be a lot more interesting and interested and you worry less about how you appear to the world and you worry more about, no, like, let's figure this out. And so whether that I didn't know. I was an executive creative director for a few years at an international shop, but I'd never run an agency. And then I just go and start my own. Who does that? Well, many, well, many many do and it, but they don't really have the guidebook. You just you're confident you can figure it out.
Speaker 2:Um, and you're curious about how you like, how you do it yeah, and and, would you say, if I think for most people there's usually a moment or a couple moments in their lives they could point to where, like hey, this moment I was in a fork in the road and if I'd gone left or right things could have turned out really different for me. Do you have any moments like that in your world?
Speaker 1:I had graduated from Queens University in 1993 because so many of my friends were going to travel and I was like I can't afford to do that. So my thought was I'm going to get a job at Club Med. And I was. My degree was in physical and health education. I had been worked at a camp for five years, I had performed in plays, you know like I had everything that you would want to work at Club Med, everything. And I didn't get the job. And I turned down a full-time job at the Queens Business School and I didn't.
Speaker 1:And then, because I was gonna do this Club Med thing and I didn't get the job, and then what? I was at home, back at my mom's place sitting on a couch, going. I have zero plans, I have no idea what I'm going to do, no career aspirate and absolutely nothing. And it's one of the deepest, darkest moments of my life, because here I was the first of my family to go to university and two weeks out I'm already unemployed. I have no career aspirations, no idea about anything, no job opportunity, nothing.
Speaker 1:And I was so lucky that the Queens School of Business called me back and they said we heard you didn't get that job and we would, you know we would still love you to come and join our team. And I took it and loved it and I started to work in a field that I didn't think I'd ever work in. I didn't think I'd ever work in business. And I was, you know, trained by Gordon Cassidy, who is not only a full professor of statistics at Queens but an unbelievable entrepreneur, and a group of colleagues who I just continue to learn from every single day. And that was the then I was off. I was off to the races at that point, but man sitting on a couch thinking, do I? Literally? My stepdad came in and said, like are you going to apply for unemployment insurance? And I was like I have two degrees. It was a real low, but I made it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think. Anyway, I think all of us experience values high points, low points. I guarantee you, in your business right now, there are high points and low points. We all swing and miss and that's what happens, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, totally yeah yeah, so let's talk.
Speaker 2:Let's flip to the other piece. So you talked about becoming a better person in business. What, what are some of your insights around becoming a better business person?
Speaker 1:well, I think that there's a, there's an operating system that can actually take care of both um, and it's one that we use at our agency for all of our clients, from the smallest to the biggest, and it really is quite simple. It is that great organizations, great leaders, great people align what they think, what they do and what they say, and so the think side is really about. You know, if we take the business perspective on it first of all, the think side is around purpose that. What do you fundamentally believe? Shareholder value era, shareholder primacy era is dead. We're now in the purpose era that if you focus on purpose and execute against purpose, a great indirect side benefit of that is shareholder value. But focusing on shareholder value is not the way to drive it.
Speaker 1:So, if you focus on purpose, have a sense of fundamental belief in why you do something, or if you're Simon Sinek fans, you're why. But that's not about cause. Purpose isn't cause. Purpose is strategically linked to where you make your money. It's not about human rights and it's not about the environment and it's not about the cause du jour. It is fundamentally why you do what you do, to make the money you do, and so that's real purpose.
Speaker 1:Now, when you have that, then you need to actually live it on a daily basis. You have to decide how are you going? What things are you going to do? What products are you going to do? What products are you going to make? What decisions are you going to make? What behaviors are you going to instill in people that reinforce that fundamental belief? And you know, we call it the essential do Like what is your essential, do Like. We believe this. So we do this by doing this. Every organization needs to have that statement. Forget the mission, vision, north Star. We have MBA'd ourselves to death and we have these wonderful flip chart exercises that come up with these wonderful PowerPoint slides with copywritten material about our mission and vision and North Star and everything else.
Speaker 1:At the end of the day, frontline employees don't get it. They just don't. They don't understand it and, more importantly, not only do they not understand it, they don't know what they're supposed to do to reinforce it, what their role or their particular job has to do with it. So we just go. We believe this, so we do this by doing this. And then every single employee needs to go oh, I believe that, so I do this, this is what I do, which reinforces that or which brings that to life. So that's the think and the do. And then the say part is if you want to succeed in business, you're going to have to grow. And true growth comes when other people adopt your ideas. They adopt your ideas, they adopt your passions. They adopt, they go on your side, they side with you, they side, they align their values to your values. And that only happens.
Speaker 1:It's really dependent on how you communicate what you fundamentally believe and what you do about it. And so how do you communicate it? Well, you communicate it really authentically. You communicate it in a way that's not biased. You communicate it in a way that doesn't pitch slap people, that you're not always just out for the kill and that you know there's a time to dial up the urgency of the sale. But for most of the time it's really about talking about what you believe and showing examples of what you do to reinforce it and how other people can take steps to reinforce it. That's the secret. And then, when you put that on the personal side, it's the exact same thing, like if you state you fundamentally agree in saving the planet as a human being. Well, what do you personally do to reinforce it. And if that's what you do to reinforce it, then how can you get other people on your side? What Facebook posts can you write to your friends to get them to adopt your ideas and your passions? That's what it all comes down to.
Speaker 2:One of the things. There's something that you just said quite nonchalantly in all of that, which is we're in the purpose era. I want to double click on what you mean by that. It ties to, I think, the forthcoming book that you're talking about Now, what. I'm guessing that it ties to that, but talk to us about why. What is even the purpose era and what is the? How does that make sense to me? Yeah?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there's, there are. If you look at modern business, there are kind of three eras of modern business. So the first era was was the ownership era? Right, it was like hey, I'm a, I'm a plumber and I want to grow my plumbing business, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it, and so that was kind of like I'm a lone plumber, there we go. Sorry, I flipped it around. So that was kind of the first era, I guess. But the first era of modern business we decided to academically try and grow business Out of the like I'm a single plumber, now I'm going to treat this as a business. So the first era was the management era, which was hey, I'm a plumber, I don't know the first thing about marketing and sales and finance, so I'm going to hire somebody who does. And so businesses went out and they're like hey, I'm a plumber, but I'm going to hire an MBA student to come in and manage this company and they're going to grow the company. So that was the first era. The second era came when all the owners who brought in all the MBAs and all the managers said, well, how come, management's going to get all the money? We're owning this business and management is taking all the money.
Speaker 1:So it switched over into shareholder value era or shareholder primacy era, which was managers are only managing the company and that the real value. This is the Milton Friedman paper in 1970, which had the social responsibility of businesses to increase its profits. That was you drive shareholder value, you put as much money into the pockets of your shareholders as possible. And so whether that's, you know, millions of people who own shares and equity in a business, or whether that's a standalone person who owns the business, but that was shareholder primacy. And so all people did was then try and go in and, kind of, you know, take a whole bunch of a series of actions and decisions to try and drive share price and share shareholder value. And then you know and roger martin's done a lot of, a lot of work in this era area.
Speaker 1:But when you look over the long haul I was looking here somewhere there's a great book by david gallus um called the man whoism, and it's on Jack Welch himself, and Jack Welch we literally made CEO of the century. He was the king of shareholder primacy era. It was all about shareholder value and what Gellis looked at it was over the long haul. He didn't do it. Then, when you isolate businesses and look at them over the long haul, those people who are all focused on shareholder value didn't drive it. They didn't drive any over the long haul and so, oh well, what is? How do we drive kind of long-term value in businesses?
Speaker 1:And that is by focusing on purpose, having fundamentally something that you believe in and then using that purpose to grow the organization, not cutting people, cutting costs and just manipulating stock price, but in actually playing the long game and using your purpose. You know, I've kind of explained it where you can now use purpose as your pivot foot. You know, I've kind of explained it, where you can now use purpose as your pivot foot. You know and I don't know if you're a basketball fan clearly, by my six foot 10 frame, you know that I'm an amazing basketball player.
Speaker 1:But when you're dribbling down the court, you stop and you have your pivot foot. Well, you have one foot that kind of explores the space, right? Am I going to pass this way? I'm going to pass this way, I'm going to pass this way. That's not your pivot foot. Your pivot foot is the foot that's anchored to the floor, and this is the thing that keeps you grounded, where you can explore new territory without going willy nilly all over the court and getting called for traveling. So purpose grounds you. Same thing in business, you can try, can I? Same thing in business, you can try, can I swear on?
Speaker 2:this podcast.
Speaker 1:Yes, you can try a bunch of random shit, which that's what some leaders do, right the old like we take a bunch of stuff and see what sticks and throw it against the wall. It's like what you got to be better than that. Purpose is your pivot foot. Purpose allows you, keeps you grounded. So, yes, you can explore diversifying your portfolio, yes, you can look at diversifying your revenue mix and you can look at disrupting yourself and all that kind of stuff, but it keeps you focused and grounded in doing those things to reinforce purpose, not just a bunch of random tactics. So that's how it can, I think, why we're into that new purpose area. That, again, this is something that Roger Martin called. I believe, not me, but I've echoed it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would like to double click on this whole purpose area thing. So my background is I came from what we call social innovation world. At the time, I got super frustrated with that world because I felt like there was very little strategy involved. And then, when I started to talk about strategy, one guy said hey, if they're not appreciating your strategy lens, they're coming to the business world and they'll love you. And that's what I did. And that's what I did and I built a career. And that's what I did and I built a career.
Speaker 2:And I'm very curious around somebody like you who says, hey, I'm a big fan of capitalism. How do we bring in that social justice piece? Because, for example, for me, on social media, for example, I am very careful. What I share politically I don't. There's certain beliefs that I have I don't share online because number one, I know I have clients who fundamentally disagree with some of my beliefs and I have clients who agree with them. And there's a piece where I struggle with how to live my politics publicly. But then people say we're in this purpose era. But I don't feel like that. I still feel like we're in an era where I have to be very careful. I'm still not talking about sex, money and politics, right? So religion, money and politics, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think, and I'm probably not as careful, but I'm mindful of it. Certainly, on stage I'm maybe a little bit more mindful because I'm faced with the reality of a crowd who might boo or you know.
Speaker 2:but no, you do a 45 minute set, no problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:I think the way to do it is that it's not about I mean, religion is one thing, right, religion is another. That's let about I mean religion's one thing, right, religion is another. Let's park that over here, because I think there's different interpretations of what spirituality is. There's different interpretations of how that means to different groups of people in different parts of the world and everything else, and it's really complicated. So I certainly don't talk about religion, nor do I think that religion specifically can improve business. Now, it may improve some businesses, but broader, more broadly, I don't think it does.
Speaker 1:But on social equality and social justice and all those things, I think we have to stop making it a moral imperative, because then you're questioning somebody's morals and ethics. It's not a moral imperative, it's a business imperative. Like, if you want to talk about CEO compensation and the gap between the rich and the poor, this is not a moral imperative, it's a business imperative. If you want a middle class that has a lot of purchasing power and you want to spread the wealth around, you don't want the top five people to have all that money, you just don't. The system is going to break down. We need people who have the power to buy stuff. Those people need money. We also need workers who have the power to buy stuff. Those people need money. We also need workers who aren't enthused and inspired to come to work every day, so therefore we need to look at systems that bring that into consideration where they work and how they work.
Speaker 1:We know that that diversity of thought is the things that make businesses grow, that true innovations come from people stepping outside themselves, so therefore we need to have a diverse representation within organizations. We need diverse people with diverse opinions from diverse places. It makes us a better business, and the side benefit of all that is also all the social equality that we get as a result of it. But I think if we have the argument based on moral grounds, it can make people question our intent in that weird like is this a business conversation? To make it just then, fine, let's make it all about business. All those things are still true.
Speaker 2:It's. Yeah, I think it's messy and I also think like I'm still at a stage where I'm like where I'm conscious about the kinds of risk I'm taking and I think people generally can guess my politics just by looking at me and the few things that I do share. But then there's some things that I'm not. I'm just like I am not touching that with a 10 foot pole. It's just not happening, you know. So, anyway, I. It's just not happening, you know, um. So anyway I. I appreciate your, your candor and a lot of what you're bringing here around, this purpose era, um. I've heard similar thoughts before, but I quite like the way you're framing this. It's. It's a nice framing in which we can begin to think about business as it connects.
Speaker 2:For example, one of the phrases that I've always had in my mind is the 20th century. So WEB Du Bois talks about the critical issue of the time of the 20th century would have been the color line, and I say that the critical issue of our time is environmental, climate change kind of issues. Unless we address that, we're in big trouble. And for some people they argue we're past all the thresholds and then, as somebody who works with a lot of companies. Sometimes I have to be.
Speaker 2:I'm often following the lead of the company in terms of where they want to go, so it does become a bit of a line. And there are companies where we say, hey, given your mandate, I can't work on this particular project. And I think more and more people are going to do that kind of thing because it's when our kids say, hey, when we could have made a difference in reversed environmental issues, what were you doing? Yeah, I think that's going to be an issue for us to try and answer. So I appreciate all that you're bringing in any additional comments on that before I jump on, yeah, no, I just think it's.
Speaker 1:I think it's it's a. It is a. I think we have to acknowledge that it's a really tricky time and a tense time, and that's okay. You know, like I mean, I'm an old white dude, the number of times in the day that I go, maybe I shouldn't say that. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. You know, like, here's a great example. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. You know, like, here's a great example. I think so. I just wrote, you know, the CEO of X, formerly Twitter you're a branding guy.
Speaker 2:We should talk about that oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So the CEO of X just did an interview on stage at Code and it was a shit show. It was just a failure on epic proportions in every possible way of what went wrong. And I thought is that me mansplaining to a female CEO? Hey, here's what you should have done. And part of me was like, ah, maybe I can comment. I was just really careful about what I said.
Speaker 1:But it's not because, oh, I'm afraid of getting canceled. It's like no, I should be careful about what I say. But it's not because, oh, I'm afraid of getting canceled. It's like no, I should be careful about what I say. I think that's fair to say that I should be careful. And if I get it wrong, I think it's also fair to me say sometimes I get it wrong and it doesn't mean I want to get it wrong. So you know, what I did in that case was I commented on it but really kind of gave props to the female interviewer of saying like she did such a great job of being tough but fair, and I thought she really tried to guide this thing. So you know all to say like it's tricky. Those conversations are tricky. We're not all going to get it right all the time, but I think it's wonderful that we're finally stopping to pause to just double check on the things that we used to do by default.
Speaker 2:The other piece around. That is most of the mistakes we make that we think about for way too long. If we make that mistake because the news cycle is so quick, nobody's going to be thinking about it in two months from now. It's going to be well long forgotten. Yeah, about it in two months from now like it's going to be well long forgotten, yeah, um, and I think I think we often forget that piece of it, like we. We think we think the world revolves around us and it's it.
Speaker 1:It does not yes, exactly, exactly there's a piece around that, that's true.
Speaker 2:So here's my question. So what is there something in your world that you wish if people understood this thing?
Speaker 1:Is there something in your world that you wish if people understood this thing, it would make your life and your work just a little bit easier for you? That we should stop trying to game the system. I think there's too many people chasing superficial metrics and superficial success and superficial acknowledgement instead of just building businesses that work. And whether we're looking at social media metrics or whether we're looking at, um, you know, in the author space of like, how many books did we sell? And like, there's too many people who are just trying to game the system and they want the number instead of the impact. And, uh, I I think if we just took that layer of superficial stuff out of the way and go, it doesn doesn't matter. Don't just create good stuff. Like, just create good stuff and stop looking at the numbers and just double down on it and know that sometimes you're going to get it wrong, but just keep going and stop looking at the numbers and trying to live by the numbers you know like.
Speaker 1:So an example you mentioned that I share a lot of personal stuff on LinkedIn and I do. I'm pretty open about stuff. I think it's important that we're vulnerable and all that and the social when I get personal in stuff, those posts by views or whatever they do significantly better than all the other ones. Now, if that was, if I was a client, then that client would say do more of that. Well then you're the person that all they do is talk about themselves and there's actually no insight into there and you don't actually grow a diversity of thought. You actually don't grow a diverse crowd, and so you can't just live by those metrics. Now, you still look at the metrics and the data is really important, but you use it for insight and you use it for where you can be better. But just stop trying to game the system and just build a business.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, I was about to say I think that connects to your Jack Welch point earlier. I think, yeah, I was about to say I think that connects to your Jack Welch point earlier, which is, man, when I was at that book launch with Stephen and Leanne on stage, they were both like harping on Jack Welch. And now you're harping on Jack Welch and I was like he's getting slapped around in the last two weeks, just like actually. Interestingly, in my book I use a Jack Welch close quote, knowing fully well his history and all of that, and one of the reasons I chose to do that was because I think there's an issue where so, for example, I once got in Facebook trouble because I said, oh my God, I could get in trouble now for saying this, but I talked about Hitler. Was hitler was a leader. He didn't lead from values or morals that I think the world aspires to, but you can't deny that he was a leader. I got absolutely crushed yeah, just like, just crushed.
Speaker 2:This is like maybe three or four years into into facebook before it became, when people still went on facebook frequently, sure, sure, um, and I remember that sticking out to me and being like what is it that we're so into Facebook before it became. But people still went on Facebook frequently, sure, sure, and I remember that sticking out to me and being like what is it that we're so like? What is it about people who we dislike and we don't agree with that? We can't admit that. We can't separate a person from a good idea that they had right and there's something about us where there's cancer, culture or whatever we're doing.
Speaker 2:That's a very hard thing for us to do, to say and I deliberately put in that quote because I'm like you know, it's a good quote. This guy is parabolic, but it's a good quote. And I did that because I was like if I don't do that, I'm being disingenuous to my values and my beliefs, et cetera. And you have to make those kinds of choices every day and it's not easy because it could create a PR nightmare, but I don't think it will. But you know what I mean Like small things like that. We balance those things all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I um interestingly had a chance to meet Jack Welch. I interviewed Jack Welch in front of like 2000 people Wow and um live on. And I'll be honest, I wanted to hate him. I hated everything. He stood for the whole neutron Jack. I really wanted to hate him and in and politics and everything about him I wanted to hate. I really liked him. I really liked him. I thought he was a lovely to me. He was a lovely guy. His love for his wife was Susie Welch, who herself is absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 1:She was former editor of the Harvard Business Review was very, very clear in their interactions and he was very self-aware of that. The people told him that he was a nut job and that he was a right wing freak and that he was a capitalist pig and and he was very focused on that he also said things that I really admired that you know stuff about candor and how, yes, he failed, you know, fired the bottom 10 percent, but that nobody was ever surprised when they were fired because he delivered. You know he spoke with such candor and was completely open and transparent with people. And that's even more morally offensive is when you don't have conversations with people and they don't know that they're the bottom rung and that if there's a layoff that's coming, they're the ones that are on the chopping block. They're managed like oh, I can't have difficult conversations that's immoral if they don't know that they're in the bottom of the pile.
Speaker 1:So there were a lot. There was a lot that I really liked about Jack Welch, and I think that, more than anything, he was a product of his time and he might be a very different leader if he was alive and leading an organization today. So I think it's okay to. I think I've quoted him with a line I'll never forget. When we talked about, I asked him what his approach to innovation was and he said I'm sick of innovation being some Q3 initiative that we check here's innovation, find a better way every day. And that's such a great line. It's such a great approach in how we should look at innovation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so valuable to just have that point. It doesn't matter who it comes from, right it's like, is the point valid or not? It doesn't matter what is the source of it? Well, in some ways it does, but it doesn't. I had an experience where I was in a situation where I was managing something that people cared about and this guy wrote me an absolutely scathing email about how I was, all these names and da-da-da and I had to make some difficult choices or whatever. And my response to him he sent me that email within two minutes. I responded Lincoln once said I do not like you. Therefore I must get to know you. When would you like to meet for coffee, Nice? That was my response to the guy. That's awesome, Right, it was like a two-minute response. When I met with the guy, he's like I have never changed my mind about how much I respect somebody as how much I changed my mind with you.
Speaker 2:Because, not because of what you said, but by how quickly you did it. You responded within about two minutes and your response was an olive branch, it was not like to get defensive, et cetera. He was accusing me of all these things. I was like, well, let's have coffee and talk about it, right, and that's kind of your point. Your point is that no matter which island you fence and actually that's one of the best lessons I've learned I work with people who are both on the left and the right, and I say American clients, who I disagree with, but as human beings they have impacted my life in ways I can't tell you. They've helped me understand things, they're great people, et cetera. We just land on very different sides of politics and that's been a big growing edge for me for sure, and I think I wish a lot of people kind of understood that piece. It's an interesting one for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's almost like the inner voice is like how fascinating it is that somebody would believe that. Right, like it's really fascinating that someone would, whatever opinion they have of whatever, and it's like why, like what is it behind that? And you know, for those that I disagree with vehemently politically, at the same time I kind of know where it comes from and I get it.
Speaker 2:The most brilliant example I have of this is so I used to do a lot of work in academia, yeah, so we were at an indigenous knowledge kind of event and this woman who was Irish she's an Irish scholar, and the other one was an African-American scholar and the black woman looked at the Irish woman and said here's my question for you what happened to your people that they could do what they did to my people? What in your history happened to your people? And I just thought it was the most empathetic, brilliant question I've ever heard in my life and to this day that question sits with me as somebody who understood all of the nonsense around slavery and all of what happened. She is a scholar of that time. But the question she had for the white indigenous scholar was what happened to your people that was so bad that they did what they did to my people? Why would they what?
Speaker 2:was. It was amazing question, right yeah, I love them.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, there was. I was in a meeting with a former host of a cbc radio show called q it wasn't um the musician, um, oh, anyhow, I'll think of it um, he was lovely guy um, and he talked about um the interviewing people and we said like, oh, what's the best interview, whatever? And he said, well, actually the best question that's ever come up was somebody asked me in an interview and he said the question was what's the most important thing you've ever changed your mind about? And that's such a great question and um, and so then we went around the room. He's like so and so for me it was marriage. Like I got married very late and didn't think I would ever get married and then I met my wife and it's like maybe marriage is a bet, you know, and you have.
Speaker 2:You have a three out of five year old, is that? Yeah, yeah, yeah just they just started to sleep through the night and stuff. Good job yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's. It's one of those things. If I get into a debate with somebody, one of the first questions I ask is um, what, what can I say that might change your mind? They say nothing. I'm like okay, well then we don't have anything to talk about, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like so it's not until I just save myself a whole debate, right? It reminds you of that. All right, let's segue into a little. Another question around what's one of the most interesting ideas you've encountered in your field or your favorite example of impact or change or influence in the work that you do? Do you have a favorite example there?
Speaker 1:Well, I think there's one that I've been exploring a little bit more lately as a case. As a case, you know, I kind of think, in cases often lack of like, what's a great example. So I was, like you know, writing and talking a lot about bo burnham as a comedian. What he did that the rest of us can learn from, I think, his career and how he so for people for people who don't know who bo burnham is, who's bo burnham?
Speaker 1:um. So he's a comedian. He started as a youtuber and then got kind of really big and um and kind of started growing older and started doing soft theater tours and then faced like a huge amount of anxiety, kind of performing in live audience, and quit. He just quit doing stand-up comedy and after, at the end of the show, make Happy. After, at the end of the show, make happy, um, and then, uh, over the pandemic, like you know, he kind of reconnected with his purpose. I think he probably didn't use those words, but that's seemingly what happened. We reconnected with why he got got into the thing in the first place, um, and created a special called inside and it's, it's brilliant's absolutely fun, it is so incredible. And where he just found his, you know, great, his best work was actually followed him quitting the business because he reconnected with his purpose and realized he could reinvent himself. So I love that. But the one. I think that's really interesting. There's a baseball team called the Savannah Bananas. Have you heard of the Savannah Bananas?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great story. Listeners may not have heard of it, but go ahead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you know, jesse Cole is the owner who bought this like baseball team that was a minor league baseball team and then was losing money and said I would rename it. Somebody came up with the bananas. He's like bingo, that's it, let's do this man of bananas. And but he took like such an entrepreneurial approach to this and realized that there was only so much that he could that the real problems that people had with the experience were problems that he couldn't solve, that there were actually problems with the game of baseball. So in order to kind of really develop a product that connected with people, he actually had to step outside the category and he quit.
Speaker 1:He pulled the baseball team out of the league and started creating his own baseball game and his own rules. You can't there's, you know, there's no walking, you have to run. If you get walked, you have to run. There's no bunting. If you hit a foul ball and it goes into the stands and a fan catches it, you're out Like.
Speaker 1:There's all these amazing rules that he's got that has made the sport of baseball so much more enjoyable for those people who aren't baseball purists. And, of course, the target market the kind of, you know, the serviceable market there is massive. It's way larger if you go to non-baseball fans, who want a great experience, than baseball fans who are purists. And so he just I think that great insight of to really really make a product that really is an amazing experience for people and will serve the needs of the greater segment. I got to get out of the game, I got to create my own and I think it's just such a wonderful. It's a wonderful business case. As a baseball purist, I hate the idea of his game, but I'm not in his addressable market, right, he's going to other people.
Speaker 2:A client of mine took me to my first baseball game this year. My first baseball game was in Chicago to see a Cubs game.
Speaker 1:Oh, what a great place yeah.
Speaker 2:So for me I was like hey, I told my brother-in-law yeah, my client is taking me to my first baseball game. He's like well, I'm like I'm in Chicago, I'm in a Cubs game. He's like your first baseball game is like people's like dream baseball game is that they have on their bucket list to go to chicago and watch. Go to the wrigley field, wrigley field, it's.
Speaker 2:It's all downhill from here exactly, but he was like he's like you're gonna be disappointed. Anyway, you could, and it was a beautiful day like perfect weather, etc he was like oh, amazing you're just gonna be disappointed.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah, so, anyway, that's my. I'm a. I'm a purist. Yeah, it comes to cricket. Oh yeah, see, there you go. I like test cricket, five-day test cricket and one-day test, one-day cricket. And there's something called 2020 cricket, which I despise because it's not the real cricket. But anyway, right, right, we'll bore most people who are listening to this. So, to close off this conversation, I'm going to ask you a coaching question that I often ask. I've been asking all my guests where are you seeking comfort when you should be seeking discomfort?
Speaker 1:um, probably in my downtime, like kids have gone to bed, um, and uh, you know the work day is done or I'm still working away, kind of thing, and it's like it's like I just kind of fall into this comfort of default. You know, like of, uh, I'm gonna look at watch some youtube stuff and I'll look watch a latest series or I'll read a little bit and, um, I think, like new experiences and introducing myself to new things, I think at night is tricky and I choose comfort. Often I choose comfort, but I think it's because I choose discomfort it works so much.
Speaker 2:I think there's. There's this idea that the last hour of your day is the most important, and don't tell me that I that's not. I don't want to you know it sets you up for the next day, but as somebody who has a four-year-old, I get it. My wife travels a lot for work. When she's away, my habits are the worst. I'm up too late. Yeah, totally. Do you have a favorite quote?
Speaker 1:Hmm, do you have a favorite quote? Uh, hmm, gordon Cassidy, who was that director of the executive MBA programs at Queens University, my first boss, had a line that was only rocket science is rocket science. Love it like everything else is. You can figure that Like everything else is.
Speaker 2:You can figure that out. Everything else is figureoutable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly Exactly.
Speaker 2:So before we close off today, is there something you want to share with folks?
Speaker 1:before we kind of wind down this conversation, ron, no, I think you know I mean thank you, thank you for listening to this amazing conversation. No, I think you know I mean thank you for listening to this amazing conversation. No, I don't I mean other than think it. Do it, say it, you know, and you can find out stuff about me, and I'm very active on LinkedIn so you can follow me there and wishing you love and success in your future endeavors.
Speaker 2:Awesome, ron. Ron, thank you for coming on today's conversation and, for those of you who are listening, thank you for joining another episode of Conversations with Keita Deming. Hope you join me next time where I'll be having another conversation with another thought leader, author, entrepreneur, and we explore those two questions of how to become better people and how do we become better people in business. Have a wonderful day and see you next time. Thank you for listening to Conversations with Keita Deming. Over the years, I've learned that few things will impact or improve your life more than improving your strategies and having better conversations with the people you wish to serve. If you like today's guest and the idea is shared, please like, follow and provide a review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also visit my website, sign up for my newsletter and learn about the release of my upcoming book. I look forward to the next episode where we'll be in conversation with someone who will help you become a better business person and a better person in business. See you next time.