Dive into the art of negotiation with Fotini Iconomopoulos, where empathy and strategic silence take center stage.
In our conversation, Fotini, a renowned negotiation consultant, shares insights on how mastering negotiation goes beyond simple transactions, deeply influencing our business relationships and personal growth.
As the best-selling author of HarperCollins’ “Say Less, Get More: Unconventional Negotiation Techniques to Get What You Want,” Fotini is the go-to expert for Fortune 50 executives seeking guidance in high-stakes negotiations or aiming to empower their teams through her workshops on negotiation, communication, and persuasion.
We explore the core aspects of assertiveness and likability, providing valuable strategies for those in marginalized positions to confidently navigate these challenges with grace.
Key Takeaways:
Fotini's links:
Hi, I'm your podcast host Keita Demming: Author, Advisor, Thought Partner & Coach.
I'm an award-winning educator and coach with a PhD in Adult Education and Workplace Learning who works to transform companies into places that are idea-driven and people-centered.
At The Covenant Group, I design training programs and coach entrepreneurs and business leaders to meet their strategic goals and build their businesses.
In my book, Strategy to Action: Run Your Business Without It Running You, I introduce an effective and straightforward tool to elevate your skills as a business professional and navigate the corporate world. The book offers practical insights on transforming strategies into tangible results.
Follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, and subscribe to my Newsletter.
Dive into the art of negotiation with Fotini Iconomopoulos, where empathy and strategic silence take center stage.
In our conversation, Fotini, a renowned negotiation consultant, shares insights on how mastering negotiation goes beyond simple transactions, deeply influencing our business relationships and personal growth.
As the best-selling author of HarperCollins’ “Say Less, Get More: Unconventional Negotiation Techniques to Get What You Want,” Fotini is the go-to expert for Fortune 50 executives seeking guidance in high-stakes negotiations or aiming to empower their teams through her workshops on negotiation, communication, and persuasion.
We explore the core aspects of assertiveness and likability, providing valuable strategies for those in marginalized positions to confidently navigate these challenges with grace.
Key Takeaways:
Fotini's links:
Hi, I'm your podcast host Keita Demming: Author, Advisor, Thought Partner & Coach.
I'm an award-winning educator and coach with a PhD in Adult Education and Workplace Learning who works to transform companies into places that are idea-driven and people-centered.
At The Covenant Group, I design training programs and coach entrepreneurs and business leaders to meet their strategic goals and build their businesses.
In my book, Strategy to Action: Run Your Business Without It Running You, I introduce an effective and straightforward tool to elevate your skills as a business professional and navigate the corporate world. The book offers practical insights on transforming strategies into tangible results.
Follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, and subscribe to my Newsletter.
Right. So the more value you can uncover, the more curious you can be, the more empathy you can have, the more opportunities you can see to go. Oh, I didn't even think about including that in the deal. Oh, I didn't even think about offering that up. I didn't realize that was important to you. That's super easy for me to do, and vice versa. Now, all of a sudden, we have a better opportunity than where we started, and that's where I tell people too you can actually build relationships while negotiating, which 30 years ago, I don't think that people would have believed that statement.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to another episode of Conversations with Keita Deming. Today I'm going to be in conversations with Fotini Iconopoulos. Fotini is an expert in negotiation, so when we explore the question of how to become better people in business and become better business people, negotiation is a key part of that, and our conversation goes deep. We take some unexpected turns and I really hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you do, don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you get podcasts and to support my work, check out my book Strategy to Action. If you do, don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you get podcasts and to support my work, check out my book Strategy to Action or join my mailing list, keithatemmingcom, to learn more about how you too, can become a better person in business and a better business person. Hope you enjoyed today's episode. So for Tini people who have no idea who you are and what you do, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 1:Sure, I am a negotiation consultant, which means very little to most people, so that means that I am the one who large organizations usually call in when they're dealing with a very intense negotiation. When they say you know, big giant company X is breathing down our throat, what do we do? What do we say? I'm the hired gun that comes in and coaches them through that prospect. Or they say, hey, can you train our team? We're bleeding money and we need to improve our profits. Can you train them in better negotiation skills? Or, more recently I've been focusing on hey, we're struggling with conflict in the workplace. We're struggling with helping people with their credibility, with their confidence. How do we help people get what they want and create better relationships? Most people don't equate negotiation with better relationships, but it is a possible thing to do. So I spend a lot of time talking to folks on just how to get what they want in a non-combative way.
Speaker 2:So for folks on this who are listening to this podcast, they're tuning in for one of two questions. So question number one based on your work, how do you help people be better people in business? How do you?
Speaker 1:answer that question. Well, interestingly, for the last few months, the big theme that I've been harping on is that, when it comes to negotiation, in order to be an effective negotiator, you have to have two things you have to have curiosity and you have to have empathy. And in order to be a great negotiator, most people assume it's like, okay, I'm going to go in there and I'm going to get what I want. But I've always taught people that no one's going to be if you want to be a leader. No one's going to follow you if you don't think about what's important to them. Why would they follow your ideas? Why would they follow your proposal? Why would they be in agreement with you without conflict, if you haven't considered what is in it for the people sitting across from you right now? So that requires empathy, and I believe that when we all exercise a little bit more empathy, I think we're better people.
Speaker 1:When you can put yourself in someone else's shoes, that doesn't mean you're agreeing with them, but when you can see things from their perspective, you can come up with solutions that are going to be less combative, and that makes for a more pleasant workplace, it makes for a more pleasant world, it makes for some new perspectives and we don't go through life tunnel visioned.
Speaker 1:When it that tunnel visioned approach, we get quite arrogant and we get quite close to other people's ideas, and that means the world is really not a better place if you're not open to hearing what everybody has to say. So when you can go in with that level of empathy, I think we're better people. When you can match that with curiosity too, you're also a better negotiator and it actually, you know, opens up that empathy to a whole new level. Why would they say that type of thing? Well, what about? It is important to them. When you can start to pair those two things together, it really starts to meld the, the business person, and the, the, the good person kind of elements together yeah, um, for listeners, I can't recommend your book.
Speaker 2:Cls, get More Anymore. Like I can't recommend it anymore. If you haven't read it or heard about it, check it out. One of the things I really appreciated about your book is as a person of color. You frame a bunch of things from the perspective of being a woman, but they applied to me as a person of color and I was like, oh my goodness, it's fantastic. Have you ever had people make that kind of connection where the work that you're doing is very helpful towards marginalized groups and people who so?
Speaker 2:For example, one of the struggles I have is stepping into my aggression, if that makes sense. So going for what I want, I've learned I've been holding back because I don't want to be perceived as aggressive. That's a stereotype that is associated with black men in particular. Yeah, so I struggle with being aggressive, so I struggle with going after what I want in the world, and your book was one of those books that helped me be like you know what? Go for it, bud. Go do it. Have you ever had people comment make those kind of comments? I mean.
Speaker 1:A comment like that is music to my ears. When HarperCollins asked me to write the book, because I didn't have a book in my mind, I thought maybe someday down the road, but I didn't have a picture of what I wanted to even write. And they approached me and they said we think you have a book in you. And I was like, okay, but why? Why another negotiation book? There's a million out there. I've read them all. And they said we just think you have a voice that people need to hear and you present things in a different way. And the mission became because, when I started to reflect on some of the things that I had read I've read some phenomenal books, some ones that have been around for decades, but I always felt like I had to be very careful about which parts I took and which parts I had to discard because those parts wouldn't work for me. And so my mission became I want to write a book that's going to work for everyone, and when you pick the lowest common denominator, the most marginalized person, if it's going to work for them, it's going to work for the dominant group too. It's inevitable it's going to work for that dominant group. So now we're including everybody, because I was the only woman at the table. I was always the youngest at the table, I was always the one that had the name that nobody could pronounce Like there was all of these strikes that made it that. That created this bias around me. I was sick and tired of getting advice from people that would backfire on me where I'd have to point out to them that's not going to work for me. I had a boss once say oh for teeny, you can say this. You're just probably just being patronizing and condescending. I was like I can be both of those things when the mood strikes me, but let me assure you when I deliver that line, I'm being neither of those things. I'm doing it exactly the way that you instructed me to do it and it's just not working. It doesn't work that way. So that was always the lens that I had in everything that I do, when I'm teaching people out in the real world. And when I started to put pen to paper, that was what I was trying to make sure that I was mindful of, because it wasn't just about my book, it wasn't about my bias, it was also about there's a lot of people out there who have far more bias against them. Like, I do have some privilege maybe not as much as others, but I recognize how much privilege I do have. So how can I make sure it serves folks like you who tell me I'm up against these barriers every single day? How do I do it? So I am thrilled when I get these types of comments and they do come frequently and I'm so grateful for that.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned something really specific like that aggressive label. Women get that label all the time too, especially women of color. This book was meant to be something, and every lesson I teach from the stage is how do you take that aggression and make sure it's labeled as assertive? There's a difference between assertive and aggressive. You can be assertive without being perceived as aggressive. All of the stuff that I talk about is meant to be assertive, not aggressive, because aggressive gets a really bad rap and and we don't want to go down that road and potentially hurt any outcomes.
Speaker 2:So let's double click on that. What would be like three takeaways you would give to somebody listening to this, things you could do that put you in that assertive camp versus the aggressive camp.
Speaker 1:So one of them is to it's the number one tip I give everybody. It's to press what I call your mental pause button. It's very easy to be reactive. It is very easy to when someone says something that is going to trigger you, or when you want to launch into something. Can you find this mental pause button to just take a breath and then make sure that what you say is going to come out with the clarity and the consistency and the calmness that you want. Because when we get reactive, when you're just ready to jump in the second, they're done their last word or potentially interrupt them.
Speaker 1:That's part of that perception of aggressive or rude or any of that thing. In your mind it might be excitement, it might be passion, it might be I'm sharing an emotion with you that is quite positive. But in their mind they might be thinking you're interrupting me or you didn't think about what I had to say. But if you're taking that pause, that beat, just a couple of seconds even though they feel like hours, but just a couple of seconds it'll make a world of difference in terms of how that other person is perceiving your listening skills and how they're perceiving whether or not you've taken what they had to say on board, and if you are getting very emotional, it'll give your brain that time to calm down a little bit before you say something that you might regret. So you're more likely to filter in a good way. I'm not suggesting anybody be inauthentic and start faking something. I am suggesting that just take a calming breath to make sure that you put your best foot forward instead of your reactive foot forward. So that would be the number one thing that I have to tell people all the time.
Speaker 1:The second tip that I would give is it goes back to this curiosity it's to ask questions when you want to tell somebody that they're being ridiculous. That probably won't go over very well, even though it's common sense to you that this is ridiculous, but maybe it's something like instead of. The client will never go for that. It's how do you think the client would respond to this? Or let's walk through what do you think the consequences would be if they perceived it differently or if they interpreted this a different way? If you can ask questions again, you're still being assertive, you're still raising a concern, a priority, whatever it is, but you're doing it in a way that is less attacking in their minds, less offensive and more curious, and that is collaborative behavior in other people's minds as well. So that will get you a lot further.
Speaker 1:And then the last thing I'd say is a hugely important skill is to also make sure that you're inviting in likability. And this can get a bit hairy for people, because those of us who are in marginalized groups are caught in this catch-22 of the likability conundrum, where you need to be likable enough that they want to work with you, but not so likable that they feel like they can take advantage of you. And so how do you manage that? And it's through. You know the principles of persuasion. It's things like just spending a few minutes getting to know them, having that water cooler talk, talking about you know what they've been up to this weekend, paying a genuine compliment and saying, oh wow, I really like that artwork behind you, or I really appreciate you're using this really fantastic software. I'm sure we're going to have a really great show together. There's little things that you can say and do that are going to make this conversation more comfortable and put other people at ease, and in a virtual world, we have less and less of that, because in the, in the, in the in person. World pre pandemic. It was assumed that you're going to build in time for the water cooler talk and the handshake and the chit chat on the way to the boardroom and then when people jump into a Zoom screen during the pandemic, it was well. Okay, the meeting started at seven, so let's start immediately at seven o'clock, but you need to build in that little bit of likability time as well.
Speaker 1:The mistake I see people make is they try to buy likability. Let me just do you every favor, let me do whatever you ask, because I want you to like me and I don't want to damage the relationship. But you don't need to do those things. In fact, you can create a monster when you do those things. Likability doesn't come from doing them all the favors. It comes from taking a genuine interest in people, finding something in common with them, asking really great questions and showing that level of empathy. And those things will create an advantage when it comes to negotiation, when it comes to those high conflict scenarios that people can get pigeonholed into the aggressive box. So you can be assertive, but you just need to be really mindful of what steps are you going to take to make sure that you're not being labeled aggressive?
Speaker 2:So I'm taking notes here and a couple of things I want to look back on that you've talked about. Number one perhaps one of the most famous negotiation books is Never Split the Difference, and I tell people so we teach a lot of sales and I tell people you have to be very careful about how you use that book, because his lessons are from people who are jumping off of a bridge, not people who you have to have a long-term relationship with. So if you're going to be working with people you have a lifelong relationship with, why are you taking lessons from somebody who just needs to make sure you don't jump off a bridge and then after that they never see them again? So I really appreciate some of the comments you had around what works, making sure things work for everybody. So that was comment number one. Any comments on that? What I just shared there?
Speaker 1:I think there are some real gems in that book.
Speaker 2:And I think there's some real watchouts in that book.
Speaker 1:So when it comes to asking questions of course you know we're on the same page when it comes to asking questions. Of course you know we're on the same page. In fact, I believe I quoted Chris Voss in my own book for some of his thoughts around asking questions and so on. I think it's super important. I do think what you're saying is bang on Context matters. So you know he and I have conflicting ideas about who should go first.
Speaker 1:All of the research I've ever seen around negotiation says you should be the one that goes first, that you should anchor. Everything I've ever seen around persuasion and so on is about the subconscious having first impressions or lasting impressions In a hostage situation. As a hostage negotiator, never in a million years would I come with an offer and say okay, so I'm here to give you 2 million bucks. What do you think about that? You wouldn't go first. The first offer is I'm going to give you nothing, but you're not going to vocalize that either. So context matters and also who the advice is coming from matters. When you have an FBI badge and some gray hair, you know things sound a little bit different than when you don't have that level of credibility and those other badges that come along with it. So we do need to be really careful about the advice that we take and how we apply it.
Speaker 2:Okay, and then the other theme around that is respond versus react is one of the things that the notes that I just took from what you were talking about and interestingly, that's a big theme. My parents published a book this year and it's the same year as I'm publishing a book and I tell them that the only reason they published a book is to beat me to the punch, but that's just beside it. But a big theme in that book it's 45 musings and 45 musings on their marriage. They're very happily married. One of their big lessons there is respond versus react, and that stood out to me in some of the comments you made.
Speaker 2:And then the other thing is the other thing I wrote down is whose responsibility is perception. So that's a conversation that I've had in many of the communities I run in is that I'm working so hard to be perceived in a particular way, and often we find the other person is not doing that work. So do you have any thoughts or ideas? And I understand that's a big question Whose responsibility is the perception around? Whether you're being too aggressive, whether you're for women there are other words that women get called when they're being asserted.
Speaker 1:So I'm curious what your thoughts are so there's the idyllic response and there's the practical response. Exactly the idyllic response is the same response to when we talk about the gender gap and racism and all that. It shouldn't exist. I shouldn't have to do things differently because I'm a woman. I shouldn't have to do things differently because I'm marginalized and so on. And no, you shouldn't. You shouldn't have to change your behavior ever. But the reality is I'm not willing to wait 200 years for the gap to close naturally, for the gap to close naturally. So I'm going to do what I can to expedite that process. And so the idyllic response is perception should be their problem. If I'm doing all of the right things and I'm adhering by a set of values that is admirable and honorable, then why should I worry about how they're misinterpreting it? But the truth of the matter is, their misinterpretation is going to hold me back. So I would rather make sure that my path is going to be as clear as possible and as efficient as possible, and I'm the queen of efficiency. I want to get things done in the most efficient way possible. So for me, I would say it should be both parties' responsibility, and sometimes we can politely educate on what they need to do in order to change their perceptions, and sometimes it's not as easy to do that. Oftentimes it's easier to have other folks be the ones that provide those messages for them and change their perceptions right away. So, for example, I always knew when I was the, when I was the very young consultant again, I was 10 to 15 years younger than everybody that I worked with and I was the only woman in this global consulting firm doing this job. I knew the second I walked in the door. The CEO of a company who asked for help on their big negotiation was going to look at me and go. Her, she's the one. What experience does she have? And she's a woman on top of it. So because I knew that, going in I made sure that my peer, the guy who had some gray hairs on his head and who they already trusted, went wait until you meet the expert we're sending in. This woman knows everything about consumer packaged goods. Your industry is her sweet spot.
Speaker 1:So I had somebody else already helping to educate and manage that perception so that all of the workload wasn't on me. There's still some workload in that. I had to make sure that this other person was doing their job to manage it. But can we spread that out a little bit? Can we take those allies who those other folks trust to open up their eyes? That's the goal of any women's event. I do, any disadvantaged group I do. We're always welcoming allies in the room because they have to do a lot more work if that gap is going to close a lot faster. But I'm not going to just say it's on you people, I shouldn't have to. Well, I know I shouldn't have to, but I want to do things. And if I don't change perceptions, if I don't take on the onerous task of managing those perceptions, my life is just going to be a lot more difficult. So it's a trade-off of managing those perceptions.
Speaker 2:my life is just going to be a lot more difficult. So it's a trade-off and that's a tricky question. I asked you and I've had that conversation many times and your response is similarly aligned to where I'm at. It's great. So how do you think negotiation makes people better people in business? What are some of your? How does it make them better?
Speaker 1:I think if you'd asked me this question 30 years ago, when I certainly wasn't a, I was a child but if you'd asked me this question 30 years ago, I don't know that negotiation would have been something I would say made people better people or better business people, because there was a particular style of negotiation back then that was accepted. And it was accepted because it was the dominant group, you know white men, who were allowed to do it without being penalized for it. Today we're starting to recognize that the old ways of negotiating that banging your fist on the table, that whole adage of the art of type stuff, those things don't fly anymore. So we've adapted to a changing environment where aggressive forms of negotiation, combative forms of negotiation, are just not well received. And so today, collaborative negotiation is really the name of the game, and that is thrilling for someone like me because that's where I prefer to be. There are moments, of course, where you need to put your foot down, where you know things can get quite testy, and so on, but for the most part, I'd say we're trying to think more collaboratively in this world because we recognize that there's accountability and consequences out there if you don't.
Speaker 1:So what you said earlier about. We're not thinking short term anymore. We live in a world where information is at our fingertips and there's a digital footprint for everything. So your behavior is going to be out there for the universe to see forever. Even if it's a bad Uber ride, that review is going to live there forever. And as a result of that, because we're thinking about consequences, naturally by default at a subconscious level, we are operating on a more collaborative path and so, because of that, when we are thinking collaborative, like what's in it for them, why would they want to say yes to me? Why would they want to work with me?
Speaker 1:I think you naturally need to have empathy to be an effective negotiator, and it goes back to what I said at the beginning of our conversation. If we're going to be more empathetic people, if we can walk in other people's shoes, we're going to be a better society and we're going to be better business people, because we can find ways to do the whole the cliche of growing the proverbial pie right. So the more value you can uncover, the more curious you can be, the more empathy you can have, the more opportunities you can see to go. Oh, I didn't even think about including that in the deal. Oh, I didn't even think about offering that up. I didn't realize that was important to you. That's super easy for me to do, and vice versa. Now, all of a sudden, we have a better opportunity than where we started, and that's where I tell people too you can actually build relationships while negotiating, which 30 years ago, I don't think that people would have believed that statement.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so for listeners who don't know what this term means, can you just expand what?
Speaker 1:you mean by collaborative negotiation. So collaborative means there's mutual gain. Combative is well, not only is it a behavior that is going to be more aggressive in general, but it's also self-focused. Collaborative negotiation means there's something in it for me and there's something in it for you. It might not be 100% equal, and that's okay.
Speaker 1:Nothing is going to be, and because we can't even measure some stuff, I don't know what some stuff is going to have value for you versus what some things are going to have value for me. So I can't say whether it's going to be 100% equal, but if I can find some element that's going to have value for you, well then there's a reason for you to have this conversation with me. There's some skin in the game for you, there's some opportunity for you, but if there's no opportunity for you, you're not going to want to do business with me, and vice versa. So when we can think about each other's needs and goals and priorities and find ways to match some not necessarily all of them then it makes it a much more positive experience for everybody involved.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's so much around that that I quite like because it's a reframing and I think framing for me, I think, is so important Often miss that piece around like there's a whole, there's a marketing agent, framing, timing, positioning, separation, and to me I think framing is the most important piece of that. So how you frame your argument, how you frame your, the way you're entering that conversation, I think makes a big difference and that just thinking collaborative versus combative is such a nice way to shift how you even enter into a negotiation. So definitely appreciate that one. Any comments before I jump on?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, it's interesting what you say around framing, because language the language we use in negotiation is, for that very reason too, like a small tweak in what you say can make a world of difference in terms of how people are on board with you. So, even starting a conversation of what can we do to work together to find a solution around this, by saying we're in this together, that you're saying I'm not taking the onus of this on my own and you're not taking the onus of this on your own, so you're now framing it as a problem solving opportunity versus a you have to do this in order to solve this, or I'm here to make sure I do everything I can to make this work for you. No, we're here together, so we're not changing this power dynamic and forcing one person to be off kilter with a combative approach. We're trying to reframe it as hey, what can we do to create an opportunity together here today?
Speaker 2:Love everything you're saying and this is a great conversation. I'm just curious is this something that you would have included in your book today If you were to rewrite it?
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm sure there is, because I wrote 100,000 words to get it down to like 80. But I think if I were to actually rewrite it I would write even less. So it's counterintuitive because I just feel like I would pick, I would just zone in on the the things I really want people to listen to most, and that is the curiosity and empathy. I would have zoned in on those more and maybe save some other stuff for book two, because I just think we don't have the attention spans that we used to, quite frankly. But I and I'd say I mentioned them, I certainly talk about them, I scratched the surface of them and likely every section of the book, because the book is broken out section by section about, you know, communication and power and all of these things.
Speaker 1:But I think that's one part I would like to dissect a little bit more to help people understand why that curiosity and empathy are so important. I have applications of them in every section of the book, but I think people really need to understand what the rationale is behind that and the opportunity that you have to build relationships with those two things. I think, again, it's something that I touch on, but I don't know that I dig as deep as I would have liked to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll just be completely honest and vulnerable here In my book. I am so insecure about how short it is and part of my strategy was like to write a short book as possible. So, like you, I went from like 30,000 words to 30,000 words, right, and I made it. I'm doing a very short book and I knew I was going to write a short book, but now that it's coming into the world I'm second guessing that and like, should I have kept the book long, et cetera. So, anyway, second guessing that and like should I have written, kept the book long, etc. So it's anyway. So it's. It's comforting to hear you say that.
Speaker 1:well, human behavior is telling us, we have the attention spans of a goldfish, so and people rarely finish. Statistically, people rarely finish books that they start, so there's a higher probability that they'll actually finish yours versus finishing mine yeah, yeah, I know, but it know.
Speaker 2:But it just feels as somebody who has a PhD and has written a thesis and all that. I'm like this book is small, but anyway it's irrelevant.
Speaker 1:Small but mighty is all that matters.
Speaker 2:Exactly, it's like a mosquito is small, but they can be really annoying. Is there something that if people understood, understood this and you might have answered this already. But if people understood this thing, it would make the work you do a lot easier oh okay, I think this is an easy answer.
Speaker 1:If they understood that silence is actually more powerful, that would make my life a lot easier, because people automatically assume often they go well, if I don't answer right away, if I don't jump in immediately, they're going to think I'm dumb or they're going to think I don't have anything to contribute. But that's actually not the case, and we talked about framing earlier, and if you're worried about that perception, you can frame it and go. I need a moment to think about that. That's a lot of information. I need a second to digest that. That makes you look far more pensive, far more serious, far more engaged than just reacting and jumping into your monologue or whatever that might be. So the power of silence, I think, is something that is so misinterpreted and undervalued in any type of conversation.
Speaker 2:But that also goes back to that whole react, respond versus react kind of scenario, right? So take the time to respond and not react. And also, it's okay to be transparent, in that it's okay to show your work. So what I mean by that is okay to tell the person hey, give me a second to just think about that. That was my way of showing the work.
Speaker 1:And just saying that give me a moment. You're not asking for permission, you're not asking can I have a second, Because that puts you in a lower position of power. But by saying I need a moment, you're now asserting yourself, but you're doing it in a way that's going to serve both of you, right. So you're framing that. I'm taking this space, I'm asserting myself here and I'm going to allow my brain to calm down and think about what I need to say next. I'm going to look very credible in whatever's going to come out of my mouth next, instead of that reactive person that you're going to just dismiss because you assume. Well, she didn't really consider what I had to say, so I'm not going to consider what she has to say.
Speaker 2:But let's double click on something you just said there. That's very interesting to me. How do you assert yourself as people of color, as marginalized people? How do you then assert yourself without either becoming, because what you what you talked about is is doing it in a way that doesn't put you where you're asking for permission. So how do we have those difficult pieces where you might be in a situation where you feel underpowered, but how do you frame yourself and position yourself in that? So you are meeting the person as an equal. So one of the lessons that I was taught early in my business career was hey, any situation you go into, meet the person as an equal. You're not there as less than, et cetera and that was something that was really tricky for me, coming from academia, et cetera. How do people do that in a way that's not? Do you have thoughts on that?
Speaker 1:I mean there's a number of ways to do it, because we communicate not just through the words that we choose, but we also communicate in our body language. So I have to tell women this all the time Like take a seat at the freaking table, don't sit at the back of the room. Sit near the front of the room. It's making sure that you're in their line of sight and all of those things, so that they know you deserve to be there. It's taking up physical space, whether it's spreading your notes around and so on and also playing the role of someone who deserves to be there. The temptation for people who do feel marginalized or who feel like the imposter syndrome and feel they don't deserve to be there is well, let me just take notes and let me just be here, small and quiet. I tell women all the time do not be the minute taker. That is not your job. You were invited into that meeting for a reason you were invited to be a participant, not just an observer. And if you were invited to be an observer, it's because they want you to be an observer, because you have something to offer in that room your thoughts, your mentality. Maybe it's feedback after this whole thing is over, even if you're not a speaking participant in this whole thing, but there's a reason you deserve to be there. So you need to physically act the part, and that means you know tapping into Dr Amy Cuddy's body language and presence notes, you know power poses and taking it more physical space and all of those things will also help your brain catch up to what your body is telling others. So that's one way of thinking about it, but it's also going mentally just telling yourself why wouldn't I be equal?
Speaker 1:I actually I was with a bunch of women at a gig a couple nights ago and they were asking me you know how do I feel more confident when I go in a room? And I was like I want you to think of the most mediocre man that you know, who's in a very senior position, those types of people where you look at them and you go how in the hell did they get there? Or maybe you go. I know exactly how they got there because you know nepotism or friends or whatever the people who are allowed to fail up. I want you to think of that person because I guarantee there's at least one senior person who you know, who you go. That person should not be there. And if you can go, if they can get there, then why wouldn't I deserve to be in this room? And so that, for me, is a huge, you know, mind shift to go. Well, other people are getting in this room with way less experience and knowledge and all of those things that I have, so why wouldn't I deserve to be in this room?
Speaker 1:It's almost like thinking about it backwards rather than trying to think about it aspirationally, and there's value in thinking about aspirations too, about thinking about your role model, whether it's Michelle Obama or whatever political leader you like and all of those types of things. You can think of them too and go. Well, I wanna be like them, so I'm gonna start to emulate them and I'm going to be inspired by them. But I also want you to think about the opposite and go. Why wouldn't I be an equal? Someone with less experience and less know-how has been in this position before me, and I know I'm bringing something unique to this table. I know they invited me here for a reason, even if I'm the junior person that they want to get feedback from or they want to give tasks to. They're giving those tasks to me because they know I have the capability to carry them out and that should be confidence to carry me through and allow me to be assertive about my place and my invitation into that room.
Speaker 2:I'm going to share a story that is quite a personal one for me. But a number of years ago, before I decided to write my book and all this, I'm the guy. Is that on your end or mine?
Speaker 1:I'm not sure, I'm just struggling to hear. My earbud keeps coming out of my ear.
Speaker 2:Right. So a number of years ago, before I decided to become an author and step on stage, so I'm that guy who was always on the back end that I was priding myself and being in background I support people, I make people shine. And then at some point I was decided like, hey, you need to flip that, you need to start getting on stages and all that and reason that you're you've told yourself the story that you're the one who supports everybody is because a story, a story you've told yourself, this story that you're the one who supports everybody is because of a story you've told that you're telling yourself. And part of that I decided to go to therapy to say, okay, why do I believe in this story?
Speaker 2:My first interview with the psychologist he came and he did a whole background thing and he said to me I want to explain something to you. My assessment of why you do this and I mean I might tell people of color this day resonates with them. He said to me when you first came to Canada, you moved to Vancouver and one of the early experiences you had within like a week of being there has pulled him back from driving just out of suspicion. And he said that framed your whole thing in Canada and ever since then you've been afraid of police and afraid of being shot. And that was true for you as an academic, it was true for you in your boardroom, it was true for you everywhere. So your whole experience is you're playing safe and you're driving safe because you don't want to be pulled over and you don't want to be called out. He's like our job now, through the therapy, is to build body armor so that you know nobody can shoot you and you've done nothing wrong. So if they arrest you, it's fine, you haven't broken any laws. And that was the whole basis of my therapy with him and I think a lot of people, when I tell that story, a lot of people resonate to that.
Speaker 2:So for me, for a while I was doing this workout called the body armor workout and it's like you do some stuff with your legs, you do some stuff like this and I would do that once a week as a physical workout because I was like preparing my mind to do this with the therapy, etc. And I tell that story because I find, when I tell other people of color, that they can so relate to that experience of mine and they have similar stories or similar experiences because there's an experience we've had, consciously or unconsciously, that has framed the story we're telling ourselves today. And I didn't even know that was my when he told me that. I was like I need a minute to process that. And yeah, any comments on that? Like how do you think about the work you do? You think about women? What are your immediate reactions there?
Speaker 1:I mean it doesn't surprise me because I know, even for myself, I used to use my wardrobe as my armor, right?
Speaker 1:So if I dress a little older, I'd go into the office every day and ask I'd wear different makeup, and ask the guys do I look older today? Because I knew that my age I had been let's call it traumatized in a way by people attacking my age and my credibility and all that kind of stuff, traumatized in a way by, you know, people attacking my age and my credibility and all that kind of stuff. And so I was always trying to look older. Today I know I'm trying to look younger and older, but you know, those are the types of things that I was thinking about and it was. There was a, there was a turning point for me at some point where I was hired by this company. I was hired by a negotiation training company to do what I do, and I left them a number of years ago and now work for myself. But a couple years after I joined them, my then boss at the time, the guy who'd recruited me, said to me you know, I knew I wanted to hire you.
Speaker 1:The second. You walked in the room and I was like, well, this could get awkward, but sure, tell me more. And he said you walked in wearing this red dress in a sea of black golf shirts, and so I was the only woman. I was a lot younger and I love fashion. I came, my first job out of school was working for L'Oreal, because I love makeup and fashion and all of those things, and it was a comfortable place for me to not have to worry about putting the suit on, because I was just going to get trained. I wasn't presenting or anything like that. So here I am wearing this dress, because I'm not a wallflower when it comes to my sense of fashion. And when he said that, I was like, oh, that's really interesting. And he said you just walked in like you own the joint and that, for me, is my version of armor in a way.
Speaker 1:But it's also now. I take it to a different place. I use it differently. So now when I'm up on stage, I'm sure I get lots of interesting looks, because I'm wearing animal print suits and I'm wearing bedazzled suits and I'm wearing bright colors all the time. I don't want to blend into the woodwork and so, instead of trying to look credible and the power suit and so on, I'm looking for ways to stand out and I'm using it in a new way so that I'm not trying to cover something, I'm actually trying to be there and flourish in it.
Speaker 1:So for me, that was a big turning point for that too. So we have our armor, but it's almost like are you using it to hide? Are you using it to feel good? And I feel great when I walk in, you know, wearing those bright colors, when I know that I'm not, I'm not shrinking into the background. I am there because I deserve to be there, because I deserve to stand out, and it also helps me with you know, something else that comes to mind when people you know asked me all the time because I was so young and because I was a different profile than everybody who was doing what I was doing when I worked for the consulting firm, people were like, how did you end up doing this?
Speaker 1:And I was like, oh, I just got lucky, right place, right time. And then I started to think about what I was teaching people and I started to dig in deeper about women's issues and stuff and doing more and more research, and I was like that's garbage. I wasn't lucky. I chose to wear that red dress and stand out. I chose to sit at the front of the room, I chose to raise my hand. I'm skilled and I excelled in that workshop the reason they asked me to join the company was because I kicked butt on that workshop and I showed them what I was capable of.
Speaker 1:So sure, there's always an element of fortuitous circumstances that right place, right time. But even when I was interviewing for that job, I was interviewing for companies and went what are you doing to invest in your people? And then this one company went we're about to spend tens of thousands of dollars on negotiation training. I was like, well, that's interesting. I chose them because I asked the right question, not because I got lucky and got into the right company. Who was going to train me to be effective negotiators? I asked questions, I was present, I was engaged and I brought my skill set and showed it to the world. That's why these opportunities have come my way. Harpercollins saw a video of me online because I put myself out there in order to be videotaped. That's how these things came up, not because I got lucky, and that framing for me was immensely powerful to start going. Oh, I deserve to be here. It wasn't luck, you know it was. It was me putting myself in circumstances that created that luck.
Speaker 2:I love. I love the definition of luck is where preparation meets opportunity. So you prepared and then the opportunity presented itself, and that that's my story. I think that's the story of a lot of people, so I love that. Um, I just wrote a note down, oh, um, and I just want to jump, jump back to your red dress piece. My mom she's a pr communications consultant, ran a serious committee. She like put the two prime ministers kind of. She was serious with what she did and one of the things she always tells me the art of life is knowing how to stand out and fit in.
Speaker 2:I love that At the same time. So you have to figure out if you, if you stand out too much and you don't fit in, you get ostracized. So the art of it is how to stand out and fit in at the same time. But me, I'm a blue or black shirt kind of guy. My wife buys me all these beautiful colors and I need to be better at it. Anyway, moving on, so we want to start wrapping this up and start closing this down, a couple of questions I'm going to throw your way. What's the most interesting idea you've encountered in your field of negotiation?
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't think anyone's ever asked me that before. Yes, the most interesting idea oh God, I'm going to sound like a broken record, oh god, I'm going to sound like a broken record but I really think it comes down to the fact that silence is so powerful, because I am that convert I grew up, I grew up in. If you've ever seen the movie I'm dating myself, but at least a third installment just came out of my big fat Greek wedding. That is how I grew up, and so I was in a household where I was going to be interrupted no matter what. So I just felt like I needed to get in there really quickly and I couldn't leave any silence or people would think I'm done and they'd jump in there too. So I felt like I needed to talk and I needed to do it quickly and I needed to not down.
Speaker 1:That I found, professionally, people were hanging on my every word even more, and when I started to insert those pauses and tell people I needed to take that time that they were responding to me differently, within the heightened sense of credibility, they went oh, she's not this young pup she's thinking about. She's going to have something really interesting that's going to come out of her mouth right now. So I'm a convert. And then when I started to read more about it and see the research behind it, that for me was the most paradoxical and the most interesting piece, and it's why I called the book Say Less, get More Too, because it's so important and it's revolutionary for so many people that I meet along the way, that it opens up a lot of people's eyes and it changes outcomes. I love getting messages from people who went. I just sat there quietly and they just gave everything away. I got what I wanted, I didn't have to say anything. Those things are music to my ears, so I think it made a big impact on me, but it's continuing to impact so many other people.
Speaker 2:Okay, love everything you just talked about there. Going back to the silence, the power in silence, so one of the things I've started doing is asking people my favorite coaching question, which is where are you seeking comfort, where you should be?
Speaker 1:seeking discomfort. Where am I seeking comfort? Comfort for me comes from the relationships that I have, so whether it's friends, mentors, family and so on. So I COVID, certainly taught me too that I am an introvert, but there's an extreme for everything. So I definitely, I definitely have realized that when I have a win, I want to celebrate it with other people, and when I'm at my worst, I want comfort from others. So people for me, those relationships are incredibly important and I think I've been investing in them in a very different way since the pandemic.
Speaker 1:And where I'm seeking discomfort, I am trying to step outside of my comfort zone all the time professionally. So I am seeking out audiences that are not always receptive to me, like women's groups easiest gig in the world. I love it, I'm passionate about it. They're a highly engaged audience and they're going to welcome me with open arms because they're going to go. You, you look like me, I want to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 1:Whereas predominantly male groups or like the bro kind of groups, the groups where there's a lot of men in power suits in the audience, those are the ones who are immediately not so receptive to me because, whether they recognize it or not, at a deep, unconscious level. There's still a lot of bias out there in the universe, and so I have more hurdles to get over and I feel like if I win them over then I'm getting really good at my job and I think I've made some real progress in that. In the last year I've been working on my speeches and my content and how I connect with people and all of that kind of stuff. So that's where I seek the discomfort is. I want to put myself in front of more and more of those audiences. The easy route would be to just take on women's gigs all the time, but the part that's going to make me a better negotiator and a better facilitator and a better coach is to keep putting myself in the most difficult audiences.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Do you have a favorite quote?
Speaker 1:I'm going to mess it up. I don't know the actual quote, but I think it was Mark Twain or maybe it's poorly accredited to him or something like that. That said, if I had more time I would have said less. So this whole say less, get more, the fact that I wish I'd written a shorter book in hindsight, all of those things come back to that for me.
Speaker 2:If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter, I think.
Speaker 1:Is that the actual line I?
Speaker 2:think that's the quote, I think that's me, yeah. And finally, is there something, that an idea that inspires you today, that leaves you feeling confident about the world and the work that you're doing?
Speaker 1:for me. I it's the, it's the testimonials that I get, it's those messages in my inbox that give me hope for the future. Um, it's the fact that people are implementing these things, or even even some of the failures when they go look, I didn't get what I wanted. If a woman's going for like a salary negotiation, she goes. I didn't get what I wanted. If a woman's going for like a salary negotiation, she goes. I didn't get what I wanted. But I feel so good about putting myself out there. I feel so, I'm so glad that I asked. And it's people who are asserting themselves and not holding back anymore. That gives me hope for the future. The fact that we are, you know, those of us who are putting ourselves out there on these stages and trying to inspire others, and they're using these things and they're creating change in their lives, that's one little decision that they're making, that's one little testimonial that's going to lead to God knows how many more fruitful ones in the future. That's what makes me optimistic.
Speaker 2:The small change leads to big changes. So the tiny tweaks leads to transformation, so yeah, Absolutely. I want to thank you for coming on this podcast. Is there something you'd like to share with folks before we sign off from today's conversation?
Speaker 1:Actually, I have a gift for your listeners. On my website, fotiniiconcom slash quiz, there is a negotiation style quiz where they can figure out what is their negotiation style and what are some of the pros and what are some of the watchouts for theirs. They can do the quiz as many times as they want and I believe the email you get afterwards gives you all of them in case you want to see what the other styles are as well, and if they want to learn more, they can go to saylessgetmorecom as well and learn about how to dig even deeper into negotiation skills with me.
Speaker 2:I imagine people will be able to spell CLS get more easier than 14-year-old. Well, that's why I didn't even include my full last name because I knew people were going to get it wrong.
Speaker 1:I'm like well, icon's not a bad name to have, so let's work with that.
Speaker 2:Awesome. All right, it was a pleasure having you on the show. Thank you for everything. And where a pleasure having you on the show. Thank you for everything. And where people can find you on your website. Is there anywhere else people can find you?
Speaker 1:I'm answering questions on Instagram all the time and on LinkedIn. I'm on all the socials, so yeah, at Fotini, icon is the handle for all of those, so I welcome people to reach out.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, I thank you listeners for joining us today in this conversation. It's been a great conversation on negotiation. I hope you got something of value in answering one of those two questions about how do I become a better person in business and how to become a better business person. Join me next time where I'll be interviewing another person who will be exploring and going deeper into these two questions, and see you next time on Conversations with Kita Deming. Thank you next time on Conversations with Kita Deming.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to Conversations with Kita Deming. Over the years, I've learned that few things will impact or improve your life more than improving your strategies and having better conversations with the people you wish to serve. If you like today's guest and the idea is shared, please like, follow and provide a review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also visit my website, sign up for my newsletter and learn about the release of my upcoming book. I look forward to the next episode where we'll be in conversation with someone who will help you become a better business person and a better person in business. See you next time.