Episode # 27 - Interview with Erin Griffo

In this episode, we interview Erin Griffo with Gresham Smith. Not to give away any spoilers, but she may or may not be married to one of the podcast hosts (not Chad). We had a great conversation covering healthcare design, empathetic design, and evidence based design. We do a dive into a recent project based in Birmingham and we may even touch on the topic of groundhogs. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

from the plush recording studios for iida alabama this is all in design so Hello and welcome to All In Design, IAD Alabama's podcast. My name's Chad Moore here with my co-host, Mark Griffo. Hey, everybody. And welcome to season two. Woo, season two. Season two, which means nothing really. Yeah, nothing's really good. It means we've been doing this

SPEAKER_01 0:42

for a

SPEAKER_03 0:42

year. A year, I know. So I think it was February. 12th? It might have been yesterday was when the first one launched. Yeah. Okay. Which was your anniversary. Yep. Right? Yeah. Happy anniversary. Yeah, we launched it on your anniversary. That was intentional. To me, just me. Yeah, just you. Which I guess is a transition. And maybe, you know, season two, you know, I was trying to think like what we might be doing differently this season versus last season. And if this episode's any indication, then we're just going to have people that we're related to or, you know, are part of our family. Yeah, there we go. We'll just do that the whole year. I think that's a good plan. All right. It's going to be a whole new show. So, Mark, I don't know if you know this person well or not, but if you will do the honors of introducing them.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

I am very happy to. Yeah, so I know this person pretty well. She has been mentioned many times on the show, many times.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

She said, damn it, I'm coming on. And

SPEAKER_01 1:35

finally, she was like, you better get me, book me, book me on the show. Yeah, I mentioned her so many times. You've

SPEAKER_03 1:41

been speaking for me. Now I'm going to speak

SPEAKER_01 1:43

for myself and correct

SPEAKER_03 1:44

the

SPEAKER_01 1:45

record. Exactly. We're not going to let her talk, though. We're just going to keep talking at the start of the show. But yeah, so many times I mentioned to her that she told me to stop talking about her. And I think I did. I think toward the end of last season, I kind of gave up. An episode or two. Anyway, but before she gets too bored with you and me talking to ourselves, I am so happy to introduce my wife, Erin Griffo. But we're not here to talk about you being my wife. We're here to talk about you. I don't know why. Yeah, exactly. We can. So Erin is a Senior Healthcare Interior Designer at Gresham Smith here in Birmingham. And we are very excited to have you on the show finally and to kick off season two. So welcome.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Thank you. I am glad to finally make an actual appearance and not just be talked about behind my back and recorded and put on for the world to hear.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Well, we wouldn't be talking behind your back if you listened to the show.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Snap. Chad's like, too soon, too soon. It's gotten really tense in here. Anyway. Starting out hot. Anyway,

SPEAKER_01 2:54

we'll go back to our regularly scheduled structure. And now that I've introduced you, if you would like to talk a little bit about yourself, you know, where you went to school, how you got into design, and just a little potted bio on you. That's my

SPEAKER_00 3:08

favorite thing to do, is to talk about myself. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 3:11

good. Yeah, great. Come to the right

SPEAKER_00 3:13

place. Yeah. So, yes, I'm a senior healthcare interior designer. I did not necessarily always think I wanted to be an interior designer, and I got into it in college. I went to Alabama, and I was a part of New College. I don't know if you're familiar with New College. Do you want to tell people about it? Yep, sure do. Okay. So it is an interdisciplinary program. So if the university does not offer the degree that you want, or if you want to craft your own degree and curriculum, you go through New College. And it's seminar-based for a lot of very highly creative people that have very specific passions and ideas of what they want to do. Anyway, very cool program, like some of the smartest people I've ever met. I met their great professors. But I was creating a degree based in, like, design, geology, engineering, and kind of creating a sustainable design program. type of degree.

SPEAKER_03 4:38

Okay, so high school student, senior year, going to Alabama, and did you have any idea? So

SPEAKER_00 4:46

part of that was that I did not know exactly what I wanted because they didn't, I knew they didn't offer exactly what I wanted.

SPEAKER_03 4:54

There was no geology, interior design. There was no Indiana Jones major.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Oh my gosh, the

SPEAKER_01 4:59

dream job.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Yeah, so I started out in New College.

SPEAKER_03 5:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

And because I knew I wanted to do something creative. Okay. And I love science and I love– so that's kind of where– like I had a counselor and a professor that kind of helped me shape what that was going to be. So I spent two years in New College. Then– found out that I would not be able to come from an accredited program of any kind because I would be going that way. I'm just making it up. Like, what do you want to do? What's your major? Well... So, yeah, totally qualified to make it up. But it is a really awesome program. So, anyway, that was when I transferred to interior design and definitely knew I wanted to do commercial work and while i was in school and then got out moved to atlanta and worked at a firm that is wonderful but did a lot of hotel work okay and i was like immediately like nah not for me um and so

SPEAKER_03 6:14

what was it about it

SPEAKER_00 6:16

was Now, I was an entry-level designer, so I do realize that there is a lot more depth to hotel design than what I was doing. Right. You can talk trash about hotel design. Oh, stop. I was doing a lot of residence zooms.

SPEAKER_03 6:35

Oh, okay. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:39

When you're like saying, you know, that kind of design, that was not where my mind was. And when you say residence, I was like, oh, well, I understand why you got

SPEAKER_00 6:47

it. Well, that was, and that was like the bread and butter type of work. And then I did work on a couple of like boutique hotels, but like for whatever reason, I just did not click with like doing the furniture package. No offense to either of you. We

SPEAKER_01 7:01

don't work for residence in, so it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Yeah. So I don't know. It just did not click. with me I did not I know that I'm a passionate person and I just wasn't feeling it in my job so it I knew pretty early on that I needed to move on and then worked at Interior Architects and that was where I had my first experience with the health care project and definitely clicked with that and so from there I moved to Birmingham and worked at Carlsberger which is no longer but they had been around forever and uh, healthcare firm. Um,

SPEAKER_03 7:46

was that your first foray into healthcare?

SPEAKER_00 7:48

That was my first actual work. Um, not just a one-off project doing healthcare design and I loved it. And then, and, and also like even in high school, like I remember doing like, I can't remember what the class would have been, but I was doing like clinical design. clinicals that we would do like twice a week at the hospital and I worked in the lab in the pathology lab and I'm like oh my god I love this but also knew that I was wanting to do something creative so it was always kind of this pull of do I do something in medicine or do I do

SPEAKER_02 8:24

something

SPEAKER_00 8:25

didn't make that connection until I worked at a health care firm though that like oh yeah this is a thing that I can do.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

Well, yeah, it sounded like you were interested in science. Yes. And, you know, there's the geology thing. I mean, obviously. Yeah, but so, I mean, geology always ties in. I can see where there's maybe, yeah, a tie-in of the left brain, right brain.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yes, most definitely. And so, anyway, I had, the more I was doing healthcare design, the more that I was being able to relate it to myself, my interests, for one, but, like, I've got, like, my life experience with the healthcare system and being able to make those connections. It just felt like what I was doing could really, like I could bring a lot to the table from my personal experience. I felt a connection to it. It was also, yeah, like had my brain firing in all the ways that I wanted it to. So, um, Just fast forward for...

SPEAKER_03 9:29

Carlsberger, right? Yes. And then?

SPEAKER_00 9:32

And then I met Jim Griffo. And who is Jim Griffo? At Gresham Smith. This guy, I'm not really sure what he's doing now. I would love to know. When's he coming on? Is he next? He may have to be next,

SPEAKER_02 9:46

yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Yeah, and I met him through someone in the industry. He was like, you've got to meet... Jim Griffo. I was like, I don't want to work for a large firm. So snooty. The man. I don't want the man to hold me down. And she was like, just meet him. I think you'll like him. And then sure enough, I went to Gresham Smith, met with Jim, and like 20 minutes in, I was like, oh my God, I've got to work for this guy. Loved him immediately. So Fortunately, I was hired at Gresham Smith at that point. And that, I do feel like, even though I had been working for a while, I do feel like my career and just kind of all the things came together when I started at Gresham Smith. And that's where I have invested the rest of my career.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

So how long before you– how long you had been working before you started at Gresham? So you graduate and then, I mean

SPEAKER_00 10:51

– That is– Eight years. Six, eight years, something like that,

SPEAKER_01 10:56

yeah. And then you've been at Gresham now for how long?

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Over 13, yeah, 13 or 14. Okay. So you like it. So I like it. It's exciting. Yes, and that, like, our Birmingham studio is very focused in healthcare design. Gresham Smith does all markets, but... So anyway, I've just kind of been able to shape what my career has become at Gresham

SPEAKER_03 11:30

Smith. Yeah. And not to... derail the conversation but since you are married how did and you were working for his father

SPEAKER_00 11:39

yeah oh yes

SPEAKER_03 11:41

so where are you going with this I would just think people would find that interesting like how did that when did you meet Mark and how did that start was Jim still there when you guys were dating and how did that

SPEAKER_00 11:55

progress good questions yeah okay we met I had been working there for like a couple of years before we met and We met at an open house Christmas party because the Griffo's had done a renovation on their fabulous house. So for the Gresham Smith Christmas party, we're going to do an open house. Everybody go there. So I had just learned to tie a bow tie, and I was really proud of myself. It was a very random, just curious, let me learn how to do that, very useful skill. Well, if you need to know. But I also

SPEAKER_01 12:35

love how people were like, where is this going? Yeah. So it was a Christmas party, and I learned how to tie a bow

SPEAKER_00 12:41

tie. It's just, when I think about when we met.

SPEAKER_03 12:44

What you didn't know was that Mark loves bow ties. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

This is really the connection. And when I think about it, we met I really do like that is I I in no other circumstance but I remember what I was wearing you know what I mean but I remember that I was wearing my brand new If I'm going to wear a bow tie, I'm going to wear it to the Christmas party. And my little sweater and bow tie, it was killer.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

It was a very Diane Lane look. I don't want people out there thinking Bozo the Clown.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Oh, yeah. No, it was a very... Yes. It was elegant. Your shoes were huge. It was perfect. The little horn was obnoxious.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

This is never going to work out.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

And so Mark was there. Mark was trying very hard to not make it obvious that he lived there. Wow. Are

SPEAKER_01 13:32

we recording, Chad?

SPEAKER_00 13:36

But that's where we met. And maybe a few months later, you had come out with like a group of us at the office, just like to paramount or something. Poppy and I had

SPEAKER_01 13:48

become friends.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Yeah, that's right. Poppy. Yeah. And so that's, we just kind of start hanging out from there. And then, so then we start kind of breaking off and doing our own hanging out. And I was so, weird about it um in a lot of ways but um i did not want anybody to know at the office sure yeah because yes jim was still there he was also our office leader so like he was no question my boss everybody else's boss

SPEAKER_01 14:26

yeah um so everyone else that knew was complicit

SPEAKER_00 14:30

yeah right right

SPEAKER_01 14:32

yeah

SPEAKER_00 14:32

So I was like, don't you dare tell anybody, and do not let your father find out. Yeah. He still doesn't know. So dramatic. Ten years later. And then one day, you did tell your dad, and he was just like, what, do you think I'm stupid? Yeah, it was a

SPEAKER_01 14:53

very, like, Jim Griffo response, because, yeah, he just has the uncanny ability of, one, keeping his words short and simple, and then also just knowing, being in the know. And so, yeah, I'd called him up and was like, I just need to tell you. We've been dating for several months at the time. And we're both grown people. We're adults. We're not like in our early 20s. I mean, we were grown. Didn't matter where I lived. And obviously, you didn't care where I lived. So, still gotcha. And yeah, I got done with this whole thing to dad. And then he was just like, yeah, I know. You think I'm stupid? And you weren't in the industry yet at that point. I was not. I was still at the museum at the time. So... And now look at us. Now look at us around this table.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

Now an industry power couple.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Oh, totally. Totally, yeah. I'm pretty sure Vince Morgan has actually said that

SPEAKER_03 15:46

before. To circle back, I guess, to design. We'll delve back into your relationship more later.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

The second half of the interview. One

SPEAKER_03 15:56

of the things with our questionnaire that we send out that you mentioned the word experience came up over and over and over and over again in different sentences. And I think it goes back to how you answered, are there any specific design styles or themes that you're particularly passionate about? And you wrote empathetic design. Would you mind talking about what that is and how you implement that?

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Certainly. So, yeah, one of just in general approach and what I find interesting about design is that it can be influence an experience in so many ways and that it does whether you want it to or not it's going to influence the experience of a space and just how powerful that can be and you can use it to influence in different ways for different reasons and that has just always been very fascinating to me so going back to just the idea of healthcare design and what kind of impact that can have on people and their experience in something that is almost always not a great experience and different levels of that, that I love the idea of knowing... that if you practice with empathy and really try to understand who you're designing for and why and what the needs are, that you can actually impact what an individual is experiencing for the better. And, you know, the way I look at it, too, is just, and maybe this is because of, like, a personal reflection and experience, experience with health care um on the personal side that it doesn't have to like i look at it like it doesn't have to affect the masses if you impact one person's experience when they're going through something that is not not good uh that should be worth it it should not take that you are um you know changing the world and i think that you know the idea of empathetic design And knowing that that's how you reach people is really trying to understand where they're coming from, what they're going through. And then just back to the whole idea of like the science and puzzle and all of that behind it that also is so interesting to me. It's just cool to know. how much of an impact you can make with interior design. And then just in terms of how I practice, empathetic design is a term that has been used a lot in recent years, but It's really played a part in how I've practiced my entire career in healthcare design. So I'm glad that there's a name. It's something people are talking about, but it kind of impacts every part of what I do in my process.

SPEAKER_03 19:06

Right. Yeah. I mean, I think healthcare, especially, I mean, people that are going in either because they've got, you know, that family members, you know, need something done or so they may be there. They're just not, there's nothing with them personally, but they're caring about somebody else that's there. Or if it's you personally going in I mean it's such a vulnerable space I mean you're at your most vulnerable it seems like going into a health care environment and so if I think if any environment needs empathy it's that one

SPEAKER_00 19:32

yes and a lot of times you know there's a lack of control or most yeah right in most senses you are You have no control. You're

SPEAKER_03 19:42

releasing all your total control to other people's hands. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Right. Yeah, and where you're supposed to be and where you're supposed to sit and when you can go here and how you go, you know, you're there by appointment and you don't go through these doors until you're told to go through these doors.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

And then, like, what diagnosis you're about to get or what the next year of your life is going to look like. All of those things that are going through people's minds when they are in a waiting room waiting to see the doctor. Right. I can get myself lost in thought when thinking about those kinds of things. I'm just like, God, that's pretty powerful. And if there's a little bit of something that we can do as designers to make that a little bit easier, then that's pretty cool. Yeah,

SPEAKER_03 20:26

yeah. So when you're talking to your clients, I mean, are they already on the same page with that, or is that something you can help bring them along with you?

SPEAKER_00 20:36

I don't know if that was a very eloquent question. I think I know what you're asking. She's going to correct her grammar. If I'm not answering the right question, stop me, because I do want to answer the right question. But I think usually when I'm talking to a client, they absolutely understand, and they are in health care for a reason, too. And, of course, there is– There are different positions and leadership and things, but for the most part, people are in healthcare with some sort of capacity for empathy and they want the best for their patients. So I do think that it's a good partnership and I think that they appreciate when people come in and can acknowledge that that's a part of it and that we're not just there to spend their money to make it look good.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

Right. you're putting people first and their clients first,

SPEAKER_01 21:37

right? So in the 14 years or so that you've been at Gresham, has there been a lot of change in healthcare design relative to your understanding of it? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 21:53

Your ambiguous questions are great. You looked at both of us. Only because I feel like I just was saying something like that, and I don't mean to say that. But, yes, so, I mean, of course, health care design has absolutely evolved. I mean, that's one thing that I love about health care design, too, is that you never get bored. It is constantly evolving in big ways, small ways. And So, yes, the evolution has been pretty dramatic in some ways. So for a long time now, the idea of more hospitality-focused interiors has been something that has definitely been– has grown over the past couple of decades. Then, like, evidence-based design, again, you know, that's been going on for a while. It has– become more part of the vocabulary in the past five, ten years, but that has been part of a practice for decades. So that in itself is all about adding to the field in terms of knowledge and then growing that knowledge based on research and things like that. So there's going to be an evolution, there's going to be change the more research you do. So that in itself is just going to make the field of healthcare design change over time.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Can you, so for the people who don't know, talk, just kind of explain a little bit what evidence-based design is. You've touched on it there in that answer, but just so the people that don't know, and just, you know, this is part of the shows where, like, I wish there was, like, kind of, we had, you know, 150 listeners, you know, rather than 100, just because I was at an event the other day that was, it was not an industry event, and we were kind of meeting new people and, like, you know, meeting your spouse and what your spouse is doing and everything like that, and I mentioned that you were a healthcare interior designer, and the person was not being rude or anything like that. but like you just tell immediately they were just like, okay, healthcare interior design, like what's that? Yeah. And, um, like that's hard. Yeah. They're like, they're like, and it's just, and so I think, you know, when, like when you're talking about evidence-based design, that that's like really important for people to understand the backing there and what that means.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Yeah. And the other thing that you just made me think of too, is that that term and that practice is starting to make its way into other types of design too, which I think is really great because again, like, it's all about knowledge it's not about necessarily health care it's about so what evidence-based design is uh... using that knowledge to to make the best decisions to create the best outcomes so it's just not working in a vacuum uh... there's a lot of it that has to do with making a business case uh... for design decisions and that it is every decision is tied back to a reason and it's got evidence to support why you are making that decision or you are trying to find more answers so you're making decisions to you know confirm a hypothesis or whatever it is but it's all based in either using the knowledge to make decisions or creating more

SPEAKER_01 25:35

tests. Can you give an example? Is that like where a nurse station goes?

SPEAKER_03 25:38

Say the same thing. Could you give an example of what that would be?

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Yes. So one of the kind of hot topics, I would say, over the past couple of years has been decentralized versus centralized nurse stations. Or it's like one of the most researched research. not one of the most, but it's researched. It is the most researched. It's the most researched you will ever find. You didn't like that

SPEAKER_01 26:03

definitive statement that you made. It was like how you corrected yourself.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Because I'm sure people are rolling their eyes going, Erin.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

They're like, we didn't catch it. We

SPEAKER_00 26:16

still don't know what you're talking about. I like to call myself out, keep myself accountable. But, you know, there are There are pros and cons and an argument to be made for each of those scenarios, centralized and decentralized. So rather than just going off of what you have personally seen, and again, when you're in healthcare design, every decision has such a big impact or the potential to major life and death stuff. And so you want it to be supported by... the mass approach of understanding it in as many ways as possible so is it better to have direct sight line to all of your patients at their room door or is it better to kind of support collaboration and multidisciplinary practices and when you're all center at a central nurse station i mean that's simplifying it right sure super simplified i was

SPEAKER_01 27:35

thinking to myself yeah that's really simple

SPEAKER_00 27:37

yeah um and and then there are you know so many different um kind of specialties within health care and that require different things so there's not a definitive answer and that's not what the point is there's never going to be like This is the evidence supports that you can only do it this way or you should only do it this way. That's it's using the evidence to make the best decision for that client in that project or like staff break rooms, you know, thinking about where they are located and what's it doing to their travel distances and the time that they're away versus, well, now they're going to be like maybe a little bit louder if they're in the core center area. So it's just like all of these little things you can study on something It seems kind of just a side thought of, like, where's the break room going to go? But there are a lot of factors that could impact a lot of things. That was

SPEAKER_01 28:35

one of the things I found really interesting in the IIDA healthcare symposium a couple years ago. They actually talked about that. I think it was maybe Andrew Gannan with St. Vincent's. was talking about the studies of staff break rooms in hospitals and how you go to some facilities and it would take the nurses or the doctors or whomever from wherever they are at their nurse station to get to the break room, 10 or 15 minutes to walk there.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

And

SPEAKER_01 29:03

how long it takes them to get there and how you've ruined their break. But then also these are people that are on their feet the entire time. So the physical exertion just to get to the break room. And then once you get to the break room, it's a hole in the wall with no windows and nothing.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

you're trying to take care of your staff like that, that. And so you think that you might think you're giving them something nice, even if it was a great break room, but it's like, if you're killing them to get there and back, like, are you, they're spending 20 minutes just

SPEAKER_03 29:28

traveling back to and from. Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

And, and that's where it's like, again, I'll never get bored with healthcare design. There's so much to dig deep into and you could keep digging and so many little things that make big impacts. Um, And evidence-based design is also like you can use just reviewing the literature as kind of the first level of research. That in itself, which anybody can do. You mean you have to read? You have to read. You do have to read. I'm out. Yeah, I'm out. I'm not kidding.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Chad and I read, people. We read. Don't worry.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

But, yeah, there's just a lot– And there's, you'll learn so much and that'll take you on like another tangent of, I mean, I will like find myself up in the middle of the night, like reading about conditions and diseases because I'm like seeing something. Thanks for not waking me up. Yeah. I do like to share stories about things like that, though, that I read that Mark loves. It's a good thing your cats are

SPEAKER_03 30:38

nocturnal, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Right. Cats are nocturnal, so they're up with you. They're such good company. Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 30:45

Yeah. Well, we're already 30 minutes. We're actually just over 30 minutes in, so it's just flying by. Aaron's ready to go another half hour. I do have another

SPEAKER_00 30:55

question. I was like, those were not even any of the things I thought we were talking about. Thanks for setting me up with that.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Do you have, and this is not a set-up question, but do you have a favorite project? Or maybe I will set up a question for you. Well, I think you should talk a little bit about Cooper Green.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Oh, yes. I mean, yes. I will say that.

SPEAKER_03 31:19

So this is a project you're just completing now?

SPEAKER_00 31:21

That's right. Completing the first part of the project. And, yeah, this is, I keep saying, like, I don't know what I'm going to do after this project because I didn't realize that when you're in it, um just like this might not ever you might not ever get a project like this again it is possibly a once in a lifetime type of project um and extremely rewarding uh project so cooper green and when i say we just finished the first part so the it's a new building and five floors the first project here

SPEAKER_01 32:03

here in birmingham

SPEAKER_00 32:03

here in birmingham yep i'll yeah kind of describe it but just First part of the project was the first four floors. So

SPEAKER_01 32:10

my dad and Aaron both get mad at me for telling stories because, you know, sometimes they go on a little long. I get it. I know who I am, but I start my stories at the beginning. So she's laughing. So Cooper Green's in Birmingham. Before we get to like how many floors there are, let's tell our listeners what it is. It's a hospital.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

It's not a

SPEAKER_01 32:32

hospital. You're

SPEAKER_03 32:33

wrong. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

All right. I was just saying that to say we're going to talk about the first floor project. Anyway, that's not important. But not a hospital. So, yes, Cooper Green is the... It's a hotel. Totally. A rec center. Sort of. So it is the indigent care... clinic for the state of Alabama or for just Jefferson County specifically but they actually serve a lot more of the state of Alabama than just Jefferson County so they are they accept patients they see patients they treat patients regardless of their ability to pay they bill patients based on their ability to pay and their whole mission is getting health care out to all of the underserved communities in the state. They believe in that quality healthcare, fundamental human right, and that is just a really incredible organization. I've never worked with, I won't say I've never worked with, but like the hearing, talking to this client and all of the people that we worked with there, it's just like next level, different level of compassion and empathy and mission-driven work. And I think, too, just that they... were working in a hospital okay so they're an outpatient clinic and they were working in because they originally opened in 1972 as a 300 plus bed hospital well that

SPEAKER_03 34:24

building's next door

SPEAKER_00 34:25

to the next door to the new one and when they converted to an outpatient facility they closed uh in 2012 and it was terrible thing. A lot of members of the community were responsible for advocating and getting it back open. So they opened again in 2013 as an outpatient facility. Well, they did not convert the building to an outpatient

SPEAKER_03 34:51

facility. It was still a hospital.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Still a hospital. Every office was a patient room so they all had their own toilet rooms and like it's just kind of bizarre but it sounds amazing it was it was you can have your own toilet room yes um but it was it terrible and just even just thinking about aesthetic upgrades they never had any of this they were also funded by the county so um getting into this project and one knowing that the project is all about How do we, getting more access to healthcare out there. So that's kind of a big responsibility. And so, I'm losing my train of thought, but yeah. So

SPEAKER_01 35:43

y'all got, Gresham got hired. Yes. To do the new building. Yes, thank you. And now you can start talking about the floors. Thank you. Thank you. That's why we're a good team. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Yeah, finish each other's sentences except you start my sentences. So I appreciate that. So yes, we were hired to build a new building and it's right next door to the old one. And when we started talking to all of the stakeholders involved, everyone from like clinic administrator to clinicians, EVS staff, everyone. It was actually like an emotional thing to do. They were so... I mean, one woman started crying when I asked her what does not work well in her space. And we were trying to kind of work through that. She was crying because she had never been asked that before. Oh,

SPEAKER_03 36:43

wow.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

So, like, things that we take advantage or take for granted. I'll finish this sentence. Thank you. Stay away from

SPEAKER_02 36:53

my

SPEAKER_00 36:56

wife. Okay. So, yeah. Yeah. This was one that kind of like made me sit back and say, yeah, there are things that I've taken for granted that I just think are like a given that we do for healthcare design. And I need to stop and get that out of my head and actually listen to every single word. It was a good reminder that a huge part of what we do is listening or should be. And so we were impacting... every part of this project as if it were, you know, the patient experience, which is what always gets all the attention when people are talking about healthcare design. But you've got

SPEAKER_03 37:43

the people working there as

SPEAKER_00 37:44

well. And that is also a big topic. And a lot of healthcare designers will tell you that is equally important because it is, but it was just like this really getting into the granular things that we have taken for granted. So anyway, the, we really worked with them on, talking about how can you make this a resource that goes beyond just like a medical facility because they have goals of you know getting into communities to teach them how to have sustainable, healthy habits, for instance. Or the social aspect. One of the cool things is that the staff at Cooper Green know their patients so well. I've never seen anything like it. These are generations of families that have been there. Some of them were born at the hospital Cooper Green. That now work there or still patients there. They all know each other very well. So it's very tight knit. A lot of the project was about strengthening those relationships, strengthening relationships of like just different families that will be there. So it was very much about how do we. really nurture relationships and then also extend their capacity to reach more people. So most of the building is clinic healthcare spaces, but a lot of it is multi-purpose types of spaces. The therapy gym that is for PT and OT also operates as a MOG, which is great name. What is it? It's a medically oriented gym. So they I

SPEAKER_01 39:30

thought that was like a word and we

SPEAKER_00 39:31

were supposed to know it. Yeah. But I do remember hearing that term and just being like, wait, a what? Mog. Yeah, a mog. Yeah. So, but what they do is that once you've done, I mean, you can get your PT and all of that, but then their patients can also pay a very small fee based on what they can afford to use that as their fitness gym. So it's giving them resources to actually make an impact and actually like take control of their own health rather than just saying, you need to work out more.

SPEAKER_03 40:03

Right. Here's a place you can actually do it.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Yes. And so it's a very cool project, very rewarding, and just we have gotten very close. to the people that work at Cooper Green. And again, coming out of this project, it just wrapped up. They opened in December 2024. It's just like, I may not ever work on a project like this again. And where you do, you feel the responsibility of what you're doing every, maybe not every day, because you also get frustrated and stressed out and all of the things that come with doing design that, you know, I don't want to lead people to think that I believe it's rainbows and puppy dogs all the time, but it is something that I'm proud to be a part of, and it, again, is just fulfilling to make those types of connections that are going to And things that I learned on this project that I will use in the next project and the next that are not necessarily something I would learn from another project.

SPEAKER_03 41:18

I mean, just the impact, though. I mean, that

SPEAKER_01 41:20

is powerful. Yes. It's a beautiful space. I say this without bias. It's a beautiful space. But one of the things when we were talking about this in the last couple of months, just with different things going on, and I was learning about you. She's waking you up at 2 a.m. She's waking me up like, I guess what this condition is about. But, you know, things that I've been learning about it, and you've been working on this for years now, but that your approach, the team approach, the Gresham approach to this was that, you know, it– the cost of the people paying money for health care like that that was not a factor the factor was this is that we're going to make this a gold star in terms of health care of a health care facility regardless of how monies flow through that

SPEAKER_00 42:13

yes that their mission is to give everyone the same standard of care and we live in birmingham alabama where we have uab we've got some of the most forward-thinking programs in healthcare here. And to say that certain groups of people don't get access to what is right there, but then other groups do, you know, that's what they were also trying to combat. So they also, like coming to cooper green if you're a patient you are getting seen by cooper green staff that has dedicated their lives to making sure that people have the highest standard of care. So that in itself right there. You also have UAB staff and providers that are coming there to do clinic. So this building also set them up to be able to do diagnostics and behavioral health. There are 17 clinics and then dozens of specialties that operate within the clinics but the idea too is that if you can get patients to the building and be able to handle all of that at the same time so they get their diagnostics they see their doctors they may have a cross-disciplinary visit where they're seeing multiple doctors you're going to have a much higher chance of patients being able to take care of all those things these are patients that have trouble getting um child care taken care of or transportation so if you can get that to all happen in one place versus in one place right and then there's so many social determinants of health that keep or i'm sorry uh barriers to health that keep um or barriers to care, I'm doing great. You are doing great. No, like I get on a roll and then I'm like, wait, let me pull it back. Well, I was just

SPEAKER_03 44:21

about to say, it's a shame you're not passionate about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Yes, I get people, people would... Describe me as passionate. Well, I

SPEAKER_01 44:34

think that you're, again, unbiased. I think your passion is contagious because I've seen you at industry events talk about what you do. I've seen you with our friends talk about what you do, and they're like, I had no idea. One, I knew you were passionate because we're friends. But when you get into the details of the why and the stuff, it brings people in because people don't know.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Well, it's like the person you were talking to at the party. It was like healthcare design.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Yeah. That's the best circle

SPEAKER_03 45:02

back

SPEAKER_01 45:03

you've done in this. Yeah. I mean, that's like, because, yeah, to come back to that, yeah, like, yeah, healthcare design. Yeah. Right? All that. Yeah. So, kudos.

SPEAKER_03 45:13

We are now at 45 minutes. Yeah. You've got to go, Erin. Get out of here. So we're going to move to our rapid-fire questions, which probably will take a while.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Did you know? Oh, rapid-fire. I do. I mean, I do listen to y'all. Okay, yeah. I know you don't think I do.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

Do you listen to us on the podcast or just when we're running out?

SPEAKER_03 45:33

Both. I kind of tune you out both times.

SPEAKER_01 45:37

Yeah, exactly. All right, I'll go first. What's your number one design pet peeve?

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Oh, God.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Are there too many?

SPEAKER_00 45:46

No. Probably. She's going to get passionate again. I mean, sure. Like, just thoughtlessness. How about that? Hey, that's

SPEAKER_01 45:56

probably the best rapid answer we've got. Not the best. I don't want to say that the other ones were not good. He's not biased at all. I don't

SPEAKER_03 46:04

know how many times. And I'm not biased. He's totally biased. But you're the greatest.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

And you.

SPEAKER_03 46:11

If you had a issues. Gregory or Dolores? Oh,

SPEAKER_02 46:18

no. I knew one of these were going to come up. No.

SPEAKER_03 46:20

And just for those who don't know or follow Mark on social media, they have a couple groundhogs that live in their backyard, and it's Gregory and Dolores. So if you had to choose between one of them.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

I can't choose. That's Sophie's choice. But I will say that I worry more about Greg than I do Dolores.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

Okay. Do you want to, not to, I always make the rapid fire questions longer, but do you want to explain why? Gregory's fine. He's

SPEAKER_00 46:46

fine. He's just lived some life. He has lived some life. He has got the most terrible battle scar I've ever seen on his side. And he gets around and he seems okay. But I'm just worried that one day he's not going to come out of that burrow. Dolores on the other hand. Or maybe

SPEAKER_03 46:59

he just will never die.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

I love that. And he can handle it all. Yeah, right. Clearly. And then Dolores, I have no concern. She's going to kill it no matter what.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

If you weren't an interior designer, what would you be?

SPEAKER_00 47:16

A geologist. I'm teasing. No. No, I would be definitely the owner of an animal sanctuary.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

Okay. I mean, yeah, no surprise there for me.

SPEAKER_03 47:32

I'm going to stay with groundhogs. Oh, good. If there was one day you could live over and over, like the movie Groundhog

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Day. Oh, interesting. What

SPEAKER_03 47:40

day would you live over? to be and why?

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Oh, my wedding day, right? No. I don't know which day specifically, but one of our honeymoon days, I'm sure. That was like the best time of my life.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

All right.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

Nice. It's

SPEAKER_01 48:02

all been downhill since then. I'm just kidding. That was a joke. Crickets. Chad's looking at me like, shut up. Speaking of dates. When's my birthday?

SPEAKER_00 48:13

Oh my God, I knew you were going to ask. I wasn't supposed to admit that part, but I knew you were going to ask me that. And it is June 18th. Yes, it is. 1980.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

There we go. Stop giving all my personal details out there. You asked her that. I did. Seems like you said her for that. And just to give continued backstory as I do, the reason that I asked that question is because it's now been a seven or eight year joke because we've been together for 10 and the first two years we were together, you forgot my birthday entirely. I did.

SPEAKER_03 48:43

But not anymore. She knows it. Because

SPEAKER_00 48:44

I ask her every week. He cop quizzes me throughout the year and he will do it when I'm not expecting it and then I get my numbers jumbled in my head.

SPEAKER_03 48:52

It says more about Mark than it says about me. 100%. Thank you. I don't deny that. If animals could talk, which animal would be the most interesting to talk to

SPEAKER_00 49:00

oh man i mean definitely a cat like there's just so much behind those eyes at all times okay unless you're earnest but um yeah a

SPEAKER_03 49:10

cat any cat but earnest is your is your hand

SPEAKER_00 49:12

oh i would love to know what's going on behind i mean there might be a lot

SPEAKER_03 49:15

yeah

SPEAKER_00 49:15

yeah we don't know we'll never know

SPEAKER_01 49:17

but probably probably say no um I've asked this question to people before in terms of like either an architecture project or an interior design project. Which project would you most like to visit? Now, the way I've always broken this down is you can pick the world, you can pick a country, you can pick Alabama, like whatever makes it easier or not. I feel like I always make it harder. Yeah, you do.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

Yeah, that is not a rapid fire type question. We just said the questions were going to be rapid fire. We didn't say the answers. I don't even remember what the question was.

SPEAKER_03 49:59

Next. I'm going to say that was probably the best answer we've ever had. What's one superpower you would not want to have? I

SPEAKER_00 50:10

would not want to live forever. Okay. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

Oh, okay. You're really good at this. Oh, who knew? On the CBS TV show Survivor, who's your favorite contestant of all time? Oh, snap.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

Oh, gosh. I feel like you would know this more than me because I don't remember who I've... I

SPEAKER_01 50:39

mean, we like Boston Rob.

SPEAKER_00 50:40

Yeah, we do like Boston Rob. I mean, yeah, the strategic players are definitely my favorite. They're way more interesting. I mean, and then you've got just like people that you would never imagine doing well that kill it. And I, that's always fun. Which really

SPEAKER_03 50:57

probably deep down are the sneaky, strategic ones.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

Yeah. Yeah, because you can't like get through that game with dumb luck. They're probably

SPEAKER_01 51:03

coming in wanting you to think. They've got nothing going on. I'm just here to have

SPEAKER_00 51:07

a good time. It is funny when they're like, I'm not telling anybody that I'm 50. I'm going to tell them I'm 40. And I'm like, oh, that is definitely changing your game. So strategic. Did

SPEAKER_03 51:20

we get an answer?

SPEAKER_00 51:21

No, we didn't. Just like people that play. What's your favorite contestant?

SPEAKER_03 51:28

People that play. Okay. All right. Last question. What's one thing you would change about Mark?

SPEAKER_00 51:33

Oh, gosh. That's

SPEAKER_03 51:37

terrible. Nothing is perfect.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Yeah, I mean, his birthday, to be on my birthday, so it's easier to

SPEAKER_03 51:43

remember. Okay, what is your birthday? Don't tell

SPEAKER_00 51:47

everybody. Hey, that's a terrible question. No,

SPEAKER_03 51:49

you're fine. I thought it was pretty good. All right, so President's Day is coming up, so I thought I would finish the podcast with some facts. Oh, sweet. It's about the presidents. James Madison, father of the Constitution, was our shortest president at 5 feet 4 inches tall. He weighed less than 100 pounds.

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Lincoln

SPEAKER_03 52:12

was the tallest president at 6'4". Three presidents have died on the 4th of July. John Adams, Tom Jefferson, and James Monroe. But it was the birthday of Calvin Coolidge who was born on the 4th of July. So we're at a two-president deficit, if you're counting. Thomas Jefferson invented a folding... It was really interesting just looking him up because he was a huge inventor. So a folding ladder he invented, a portable writing desk, built the first dumbwaiter in the He learned about them in France. A clock that also tells the date, which no one had done before. And most importantly, he invented the swivel chair.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

Oh,

SPEAKER_03 52:46

there you go. Ulysses S. Grant was born Hiram Ulysses Grant, but changed his name. Do you know why he changed his name?

SPEAKER_01 52:55

Because he

SPEAKER_03 52:55

got tired of people going, hi, Ram. Because he did not like his monogram. Because it was hug. Oh. Oh. That's funny. That is funny. The middle initial for the S in Harry S. Truman is not an abbreviation of a name. It's just an S. There's not a name there. And then the final one is, if you're familiar with people saying, OK. Right? OK. Martin Van Buren was from Kinderhook, New York. And during his campaign, he was known as Old Kinderhook. kinderhook okay and so during the um the campaign they would put you know he's okay or whatever and that's where that whoa yeah

SPEAKER_01 53:35

This might be the most informative show we've done. We've set the bar pretty high for season two.

SPEAKER_03 53:40

Yeah, and I do want to say, if you go try to book a room at Residence Inn, if you mention our podcast, you will get 10% off your stay. Yeah, that's 100%. Lies! Trying to bring it back to the beginning. Thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, this was fun. Awesome. And then my wife will be on next time.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

Yeah, great.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

Yeah, way to go, Chesney.

SPEAKER_03 54:03

Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks,

SPEAKER_00 54:04

Aaron. Awesome, thanks.

UNKNOWN 54:06

So,