All-In Design
"All-In Design" is IIDA Alabama's podcast that invites you into the dynamic world of commercial interior design. Immerse yourself in the artistry, innovation, and inspiration that shape the spaces where we work, collaborate, and create. Discover the latest trends, cutting-edge technologies, and timeless design principles that define the ever-evolving landscape of commercial interiors.
All-In Design
Episode #50 - Interview with Jim Griffo
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Join us on this episode of "All-In Design" where we speak with Jim Griffo, president of the Alabama Interior Design Coalition and adjunct professor at Samford University. Jim has had a long career in the industry, formally as a Managing Principle and Director of the Architecture and Interior Design Studio for Gresham Smith in Alabama, president of the local IIDA chapter, and having received Emeritus member status by IIDA. Jim also may be related to one of the hosts (they at least share a last name).
This is a wide ranging discussion with someone with a deep well of experience in this industry and we hope you enjoy the conversation as much as we did.
From the recording studio dedicated to all things IIDA Alabama. This is All in Design. Hello and welcome to All in Design IDA Alabama's podcast. Thank you for listening. My name is Chad Moore here with my co-host Mark Griffo. Hey everybody. And uh today it's a very special episode. It's episode 50. Episode 50. Episode 50. I'm crazy, yeah. Um and so it because we've got it's our 50th episode, we've got a uh a guest that fits fits that episode. So, Mark, if you want to do the honors of the case.
SPEAKER_06:I will say before I introduce this person, um, you know, we've done this is our 50th, 50th episode. This is probably the most nervous I've been. Outside of the first several that we did.
SPEAKER_05:This is probably the most comfortable I've been because I know I'm not going to talk hardly at all.
SPEAKER_06:Okay, good, good, good, good. That's great. Yeah, so a little bit, a little bit nervous. There's a lot of pressure riding on this one. So um, if if everyone will uh bear with me, I have a little bit of an intro here. Yep, there's some eyebrows going up over there. But yes, so this person uh is a graduate from Georgia Tech and Architecture. Um he has had a long and illustrious career. Uh he's worked at several places in Atlanta, which is where he's originally from. Uh ASD, Cooper Carey, and Hendrick. Um, lots of project experience there. Uh he was also the first employee of the newly formed Cooper Carey Interiors Group way back in the day. Uh and then in 1987, he moved to Birmingham, Alabama to start at Gresham Smith, back when it was Gresham Smith and partners. He spent over 27 years at Gresham Smith, and by the time he retired, he was the managing principal of the uh office here in Birmingham. Uh he's worked on some major projects, including Mercedes-Benz, Alabama Power, Wells Fargo at the Times South Trust, uh, the McWayne Center, U.S. Space and Rocket Center, uh, the University of Alabama, UAB, and Auburn University. I don't want to interrupt, but I can't wait to find out who this is. I know, right? I'm sure no one's figured it out yet. Uh he is currently an adjunct professor at Sanford University, where he has been since 2016. And let's see here, just a little bit, a couple of notes on industry leadership. Everybody's still got their uh eyes open. Uh he's been an IIDA member since 1990. He was the IIDA president from 94 to 95. Uh for the last 10 years, he has been the president of the Alabama Interior Design Coalition. Uh he was the past president of the Design Build Association of America and past president of the Alabama chapter of IFMA. And he was the 2000 member of the year. He was also the president of the American Heart Association from 1995 to 2000. Key honors and achievements here, Chad. Wait for this. The guest is still here, right? Uh he got the Champion Award from ASID in 2019, the Lifetime Achievement Award from IIDA Alabama in 2015, and in 2023, he was bestowed the honor of IIDA Emeritus by IIDA HQ. Um also he's my dad. So I am really happy to introduce Jim Griffo. Wow. Welcome to the show, Dad. Proud to be here. Yeah. It's quite a quite a resume.
SPEAKER_05:Normally we ask the person to like talk about their history, but now we don't have to. No, we don't have to.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, you can just talk about whatever he wants to. Uh I got it off LinkedIn, so I hope everything's up to date. Yeah, I've read I was I was taught to believe everything you read on the internet is true. Don't you just self-report for LinkedIn? You do, yeah. So he could have lied about everything. Yeah. Yeah. So way to go. Who's gonna know, right? No, no one. No one. So any of that you want to recant? I actually skipped over some things. No. Pretty good. Okay. Pretty good. He also volunteers regularly here at Barber Motorsports in Birmingham. That's true.
SPEAKER_01:I'm on the detailed uh crew. I can uh work on the bikes. Yeah. That's right. You can actually work on the bike. Which I know nothing about.
SPEAKER_05:In the museum area or on the track? In the museum area. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:He's in the pit. Yeah. Test driver. Yeah. Test dummy.
SPEAKER_06:Um well, yeah. Now that I've introduced you, um, I don't know where you want to start, but um welcome to the show. We're glad to have you. Thank you. Thank you. Chad, you can take it from here.
SPEAKER_05:Like I said, I was not planning on I was gonna sit back and watch the this happen. Is it always just well organized?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I think we're about on part.
SPEAKER_05:We're pretty good. I mean, normally, like so let's let's go back to back up how we usually do it. Yeah, yeah, because I mean you covered a lot of things there, but let's let's ask some questions about those things.
SPEAKER_06:I did I did give Chad a heads up when you were not in the room that I was gonna do that.
SPEAKER_05:So he was like, he goes, I know you haven't done it ever once yet. Introduce the guest. Because I I don't introduce the guest. I hand it over to Mark, but he goes, but make sure you don't introduce the guest. I want to do that. Like, okay.
SPEAKER_06:And then I thought I would rattle off all the cool things that you've done. Right.
SPEAKER_05:So um so you started out as an architect.
SPEAKER_01:Is that correct? I went to architecture school at Georgia Tech. Okay. And graduated with a five-year degree way back when that was what you could get. And um it was bad economic times. And uh the assistant dean at Georgia Tech came up to me and said, You got a job? I said, No, I don't got a job, nobody's got a job. He said, Well, there's a temporary job at an interior design firm downtown Atlanta, uh, to build a model, a physical model, which I was good at. And uh he said it's like a two-month gig. So, okay, you know, went down there, never worked for an interior design firm, never had been in one in my life, and stayed two years. Not that it was that big of a model, but uh it was life size. It was surprised.
SPEAKER_05:Uh but it's When is he ever gonna finish this model?
SPEAKER_01:Steady work. But I uh also cut my thumb with a skill saw while I was there, so they felt sorry for me. Uh but ended up staying there two years, and it was I hate to say architecturally led uh interior design firm. And they were doing big time stuff. You know, Coca-Cola World Headquarters and McDonald's headquarters and embassies in Sao Apollo.
SPEAKER_05:So it was primarily an interior design firm, but you said architecture led.
SPEAKER_01:You may not know what ASD stands for, is associated space design, and it was associated with an architectural firm, which are you ready? FabRAP, F-A-B-R-A-P, Finch, Alexander Barnes, Rothschild, and Pascal, uh, which was the largest firm in the state at the time. And uh I just fell into this platinum position with this firm, and soon found that I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed commercial interior design. I enjoyed the people. I worked I've switched back to FabRap a couple times they officially, we joined spaces. It'd be like FabRap on one side of this building and ASD on the other, and I for paperwork reasons I switched from one to the other. Um but that's my introduction to interior design and uh try to fight it. Um went to went to Cooper went to Cooper Carry uh again on a uh recommendation. Uh one of the architects of Cooper Carry's wife worked at ASD and she told me that they were looking for at that time, you know, entry-level two-year intermediate, and I needed to get some architectural experience to pass the architectural registration exam. Right. And um Cooper Carry big time firm now, was a big time firm then. And um doing architect stuff. And one day Jerry Cooper of Cooper Carry called me in and he said, uh, Jim, I understand you uh you work for that interior design firm downtown. I'm like, okay, I've been outed. Uh get out. He said uh he I didn't have that conversation. He had some conversations like that. But it um uh he said, We're you know, we need to get uh more into this interiors stuff. And um uh we think you could do the interiors for our buildings. Well they were they were office building guys. I mean these horizontally banded uh they did them hundreds of them all over the southeast. So to them interiors were public spaces. It was lobbies, you know, restrooms and um and that kind of stuff. And like went back to my desk thinking, oh, here we go. Um but then I thought about it and like, you know, I really enjoy this, and it's kind of a specialty. Right. You know, and then they decided to expand. Give my whole life story here. Well, we've got an hour and a half. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Uh because I mean I honestly I've been somewhat confused, and I bet some people are as well, because they think of you as interior design, but know also there's an architectural.
SPEAKER_01:So much more of that, so much more. Yeah. Uh layers. Chad, layers. The uh so later they decided to form a separate company called it Cooper Carey Interiors Group, which I don't think they call it that anymore. And so I was yeah, I was literally employee number one, and I got to pick my boss, and I encouraged them to hire somebody from ASD. That happens normally. Right? Yeah. Somebody from ASD um to come and and set up this firm. And it was just he and I. How old were you at this point? I don't know how old I was, but I thought how old I was. Chad, how dare you? But anyway, I was You're gonna take your dad's side on everything.
SPEAKER_06:He was like 23, I bet. Like 26.
SPEAKER_00:It was about uh 27, 20, something like that.
SPEAKER_01:Um But yours, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I've got it written down in my notes. Okay. Uh Mark came along while I was at Cuba Carry, that's how I can remember what when it was. Um but he organized the entire interior design firm as if it were 50 of us. You know, in those days we had all the forms for purchase orders and all this kind of stuff and transmittals and everything as if there were 50 of us sitting there. And it grew to about 12 people, and we were doing prime interiors by that time. We were doing the interiors tenant work for the most part for um Cupacary's clients. But while I was there, uh when I got introduced to Birmingham because one of our clients was Metropolitan Properties who still exists. Uh Raymond Gottlieb here in Birmingham, who did Park Place and Metroplex and Lake Shore Plaza and a lot of those things. And so I got to do the interiors and come to Birmingham way back in the day. Um but then I got recruited to Hendrick, it was then Hendrick Associates, now it's Hendrick, um by a former employee of ASD had gone to Hendrick, and so she recruited me. She recruited me over there, and that's interiors only, uh corporate uh mostly um a residential still firm still going. It's like 50 years old. And um uh they were doing big time interiors, one of which was now the ship tower when it was built, it was the South Trust Tower, and I was I volunteered to be the lead designer because no no one wanted to come to Birmingham eighty-five times over the next two years. Uh but I saw it as an opportunity to get my hands on a you know, two hundred thousand square foot corporate headquarters. And um that's how I got introduced really to Birmingham and there was somebody at South Trust Bank that encouraged me to leave that Atlanta rat race behind and come to come to Birmingham. And um there's a few more things in there in between, but ended up coming to Gresham Smith. Um and I think I put that on my questionnaire, found out through that job through the rep network. Yep, yes. Because, you know, those pre-internet days, and she said uh, you know, Gresham Smith's in Birmingham and they're a big firm. And by at that time, by the way, there was only two offices of Gresham Smith, Nashville and Birmingham. And um they're looking for use her exact words, I can't remember. They're looking for a director of inter design. They're kind of crazy, you're kind of crazy, they don't view you, it'll all work out good. So ended up coming over here for two, one disastrous and one very positive interview. And uh we made we made Okay back up to the disaster. Well, I came over here on a Saturday and it was like I it was awful. I mean everything was wrong, and his um obviously he didn't have time for me and this kind of stuff. And um I went back home, told Hart said, well, so much for that. We were looking at Charlotte. We already decided to make a move out of Atlanta by that time. It was either going to be Charlotte or then Birmingham popped up.
SPEAKER_06:I did, I was not aware of any of this. I was seven, so yeah, they didn't fill me in. Okay.
SPEAKER_05:He uh has any of this history so far been like what? Or do you know all this stuff?
SPEAKER_01:I didn't I don't know if I knew the Charlotte part. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, he called me back and said, I want you to come back and uh we'll we'll start over. He said, uh I got a divorce the day before. My wife kicked me out the next day, so I wasn't in really good mood when he had a game break. And I'm thinking, okay, I got this guy behind the barrel now, he's got to be nice too. And so uh came back and uh and got the job. And and it was I would say it was perfect for me, but it worked out really well. I mean, it was a powerhouse then. I mean the Alabama Power was winding down. You mentioned Alabama Power, I did do some work for Alabama Power, but not really on the headquarters. It was winding down. It was, you know, Wallace Williams was there, Laura Hawke wrote all this. It was really a strong firm. Yeah. And Bob Gower, who was the then leader, very visionary guy, um had in mind to combine architecture and tier design into market groups. Everybody talks about market groups at uh at Gresham Smith and other places. Well, that was unheard of. And so when we made the move, the firm made the move to Meadowbrook, it was reorganized into corporate groups, and I became head of corporate then. We had corporate and healthcare and industrial and I can't remember what all, but anyway. And it but it combined architecture and interior design in each one of those groups. And um the interior designers were extremely strong. But back in when I got there, there was a separate interior design department, isolated in a separate area. Uh but they were very strong. They did their own projects. They worked on um progression of some projects, uh, primarily healthcare and then corporate in Alabama Power was a giant beast. It went on for nine years. Um the corporate headquarters provided. But they those interior designers, they'd be damned. They'd walk down the street, down the hall, and ask a new uh architect how to hang a cabinet on the wall. They were going to do it themselves. And so but that built confidence, you know, and they could do their own they're you could do their own work. So um that's how I came. In a long story, that's how I came to Birmingham, Alabama. And how long were you at Gresham Smith? I think I heard 27 years.
SPEAKER_06:Just over 27 years, is what the internet told me. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:It goes fast. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And then and then you air quoted on retired. Yeah. And now you're not doing anything. Yeah. You're the most retired retired person. Yeah. For sure.
SPEAKER_06:Because it's so easy. That's what I do in my retirement. I've been retired for years.
SPEAKER_01:After uh after I retired, uh uh before I even left uh uh Gresham, um Alabama Power had contacted me about their project they had coming up and they said, We don't know what we're gonna do. We had just completed a study for them for um Inverness, because they were looking to move or add on or build a building or do something. And they said, We're we're gonna do this and we want you to be part of it. We don't know what it is or when it is or whatever. So it wasn't for a year later that they hired me as uh owner's rep for the colonnade renovation, 600,000 square feet, which went on for two and a half years. But during that is when I came to Sanford. They called Jeannie Crumtite called me and um about being part of Sanford as an adjunct. And um Southern C Southern Company or Alabama Power, they were like do you wouldn't you're a k I was contract, I wasn't a real real guy. They said, you know, just do what you've hired we've hired you for and you can do that too, and that's how it got how it got started. But I've had three jobs and four jobs since I retired.
SPEAKER_06:So I actually made that joke to people because when you l left Gresham and then you had a little bit of a window before you were the owner's rep is when I first got in the industry. Um because I was not, you know, I was 35 when I when I got in this industry, um, which was funny just because a lot of people, especially now, they just assume, you know, okay, you know, dad's well known, right? You know, people people know who you are, you've been around, very well respected. Um but I didn't know anything about the industry and I I didn't ever work in it. Um But I so I got into it right when you were kind of transitioning. Um but I would joke with people when when they started to get to know me, they'd be like, Oh, what's your dad doing now that he's not at Gresham? And I said, he has more jobs than he did when he worked at Gresham, um, which was interesting. But I also would tell people, I would learn very quickly that I was really glad that he was respected because I would walk into these A and D firms as an A and D rep and introduce myself. And again, I don't know these people from Adam. Right. Right. And I would get done with my either little coffee pitch or lunch or whatever, um, and I'd be like, is there any questions? Um and then there would be several people, you know, uh varying age ranges, right? That would be like, Are you Jim's son? And I would be like, Yeah, and then get out. I really like your dad. Did you gauge it a little bit?
SPEAKER_05:Uh maybe.
SPEAKER_06:There was a few people that would be, you know, your dad, you know, really beat me up in my you know, senior project review, or your dad was my first job, first boss. But I what what I learned very quickly, I was very thankful for is that like there was a lot of respect and love there, which made my job easier. At least respect from the intro. Yeah, from yeah, from fear, maybe. Yeah, a little bit of fear. Yeah. He's kind of gotten gotten softer in his old judge. There's probably some people in this building that he's reviewed their senior projects. Um But there there would also be people um that you know we'd be having lunch and you know, we would get done, and then they would look at me and they would be like, you know, I babysat you when I would when you were 10.
SPEAKER_05:That's not embarrassing. No, not at all. I bathed you.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I bathed, yeah, right. Um uh Ashley. Yeah, that was one of the first things she told me. She said, You I actually baby baby babysat your sister. She said you were there too, and uh and you kind of looked at me. I was probably about 10, and you kind of looked at me and you were like, I'm going to my friend's house, and then I left. But that was one of the first things that she told me that I babysat you. So thanks for being an upstanding citizen in the industry since I came into it late.
SPEAKER_01:It's always interesting to see another generation stay in the same industry, you know, and especially when your dad's worked in it. And you know, it'll be a success. And I just can't tell you how proud I am of Chad for being able to do that. Nice.
SPEAKER_06:I was like, I was like, here it comes.
SPEAKER_05:I was sitting there going, it sounds kind of like my story too. Right? Yeah, and then he then he pivoted like not surprising as well. As he's known to do. Yeah. Nice. So um having led a design team and having led a major firm's office, um as you look at interior designers and as you were evaluating, I guess, interior designers when they come in for a job, um, what kind of qualities were you looking for?
SPEAKER_01:It was um it's it's it's as much of a cultural thing as anything. Okay. And you know, one of the classes I teach at Sanford is uh it's called survey, and we go visit design firms, big, small, commercial, real and residential, everything. And we talk about what culture means. Um I'll get to your answer in a minute. If I forget, remind me what the question is. I've already forgotten what it was. Uh but um See, this is where I get it from, by the way. Trying to find, you know, a matching culture and what does that mean? How do they treat their employees, how do they treat their clients, um, reputation in the industry, that kind of stuff as a cultural match. You can say, well, there's good and bad cultures. Well, maybe there are, but they're also, you know, you're looking for something that fits you. Right. We go to these firms with these with my students and um they'll react differently. You know, they do little papers about what they thought about this and that or whatever, the space or the people or the projects. And they're always all over the map. I loved it, another person I hated it. You know. Because that's how it's supposed to be. I mean you're supposed to find find your place. You know, Gresham is not there's no easy places to work that I know of. Uh, but Gresham was not an easy place because it was the stakes were high. Right. You know, we weren't we weren't doing not to disparage anything, we weren't doing kitchen editions, we were doing million square foot offices and um a lot of money on the line. So you have somebody that could work with a team. Um not necessarily the best designer in the textbook sense, uh, but somebody was reliable, you know, and to get off on a tangent, though they'll uh as a group, generalization, stereo you know, stereotyp stereotypes are easy, I guess. The people that had the hardest problem at Gresham were people that were single practitioners that closed closed their business to come to Gresham Smith. And you know, you can't run Gresham with like twelve hundred people now. Uh but it it wasn't that big then, but you can't run a multi hundred person design firm off your dining room table like a mom and pop. And so they would bristle under the procedures and the forms and I never had to I did this for tiny years and I never had to fill out one of these. Well you don't work there anymore. You're not gonna work here very much longer if you keep saying that. Um because not you know, you talked about you know students and past employees and stuff like that and it didn't work out for everybody, you know, for any place. I mean I've been laid off myself um from when I mentioned ASD and FabRap and how much I enjoyed it. I got one of those notices one day that said goodbye. You know, uh you're no longer uh involved here. And uh I went to um this power of networking uh went to tell people goodbye in the firm it was like 60 people 60 70 people in this company and one of them was Mr. Alexander's secretary you know and Joan I said Joan's my last day and she said what this is ridiculous. I think I was being ASD with kick me out and uh Mr. Alexander came out of his office and said give me that slip tore it up through it he said you're not leaving no the end of that. So uh cool. But that's when I knew I also had to leave because then I had the target on my back. Sure. You know I got a little reprieve there but isn't that the guy we tried to get the hell out of here and he wouldn't go. So that's why there was only maybe that's one reason it was only two years at at ASD and the opportunity came along at at Cooper Carey just in the nick of time for me to make a make a move.
SPEAKER_06:Right. Yeah I do I do like how um he didn't answer the question really yes I did.
SPEAKER_01:He kinda did kinda started at the beginning with you know culture and culture and uh the ability to show up half the time. Right.
SPEAKER_05:Be consistent, be reliable.
SPEAKER_01:To be able to do anything that that's gets thrown at you. You know, I'm not gonna do this, I'm not gonna do that, I'm I just do corporate, I just do healthcare that the other specialties but there's times it's all hands-on but I've got a follow-up question.
SPEAKER_05:Okay. Because the next one on the list was uh what is the secret to maintaining a creative and collaborative culture in a high pressure commercial firm?
SPEAKER_01:Oh good question right money is one but that's not all I mean uh w at big firms at Gresham you know you you did um I forgot what they called it now but you did goal setting sessions and stuff like that. And people you assume everybody's goals are the same like yours. Right. It could be money it could be I want to work on a big project I want to lead a team I want to be an associate I want to be a partner. But those are all different things. Right. And different people have different goals and trying to figure out what those goals are, it could be I don't want to work on Thursdays or I've got you know children coming up and stuff like that and I need uh flexible flexible time. So trying to find out what those um goals were and and trying to map a path of of milestones of what that means. What does it mean if you want to be an associate? What do we expect of somebody that's going to be an associate or senior associate or partner in the firm is different and it's different at different firms. And trying to communicate to the employee what the firm values um at senior levels is is key. Yeah. But first you gotta find out what it is. You know pitch somebody you're gonna be because a lot of people work and they do not forgive me they do not want to be promoted. I'm fine happy right here. I'm fine right here I'll sit here and I'll draw these details the rest of my life but otherwise I'm gonna stay here. And but the it came up well the young whippersnappers coming in here and getting promoted above me doesn't mean you can't stay here forever at the king's pleasure and make money and get promoted but you won't be at not I don't say management but recognized. The thing about associates, senior associates, things like that, the key is that's more money. That usually opens a a bonus pool for profit sharing to get those things. But um don't try to make people into something that they want and don't punish them for not wanting to do things they don't want to do. Every firm's got their older architects that sit in the back and and tell these young whippersnappers how to put these buildings together and they're very valuable but they don't want to be owners. I mean there's people at Hendrick before I left Hendrick they offered me be you know associate and senior associate um but I had a friend that turned down an ownership position because I she said I don't want to deal with it. Right. I just want to do projects. I'm a good project manager I want to do projects and then retire and go live in the mountains of Georgia and um not have to worry about employees and getting the next project and the profit and loss statement and stuff like that because it's you know with a design firm it's dicey uh every day. Bob Gower said all the assets of the company walk out the door every day. Um and nothing's guaranteed. You got a big project it could be gone the next day. So managing that is is tough.
SPEAKER_06:Do you have conversations with your students about taking a look at what that career path would look like within a firm do you have it that early more and more.
SPEAKER_01:As a matter of fact tomorrow school started today and um I'm teaching a senior design studio that I found out I was going to teach Wednesday. I'm a bullpen they brought me in from the bullpen there you go but it's team teaching seniors uh it's gonna be great. But anyway with my freshmen I'm doing something different uh with them which I've taught that class like nine times or ten times I'm gonna have them fill out a goal sheet the first day they don't know anything about anything. And you know about where do you see yourself, what kind of work do you think you're gonna be you think you've been a big firm, small firm. And they have pre-formed ideas about big firms and small firms and residential versus commercial residential initially unfortunately I don't say unfortunately but they do it for the wrong reasons. They do it for the wrong reasons. Right, right. And I the first time I taught this I I took a group um to I didn't know if I'd teach it again so it was like heavy hitters we were like Colin Carnaggio and Cooper Carey not Cooper Carey Gresham Smith and Williams Blackstock you know and Christopher and Jeff Duncan heavy hitters all the way down the Rhine. And I had a student come to me and she said Professor Griffo you're you're changing my mind about my career I said you're gonna be a lawyer you finally figured this out she said no she said I'm thinking about commercial I said really what changed your mind she said I had no idea it was creative because she thought it she thought it was cube farm she was I didn't know either it was Dilbert it's true um and I had a student today send me an email that wanted to get an internship of the commercial firm she said I've been looking at residential all this time but I don't think it's cut out for me. I like the variety and creativity of of commercial you know some of these well any firm can be a hard place to work but residential is tough.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah and um we encourage them to get internships we push it like crazy by the time graduated most many of them have had three or four internships before they graduated I may have told this story before in the podcast but talking to Steven Smith moving from Williams Blackstock to Christopher and I remember asking him we were at an an IDA industry event and I was like you know how are things going you know moving from commercial to residential and he was like well the the difference is that okay you're wearing a blue shirt and so in commercial I see the blue shirt the color blue whatever he said residential if I look on your shirt these little white dots like I've got now like these little white dots are here was like we'd be looking at that one right there. And he said that's the difference. And they'd be like okay well that sounds terrible. And you're in somebody's bathroom doing it but somebody might you know would love that that granular detail.
SPEAKER_01:Well that I I go to we visit boutique interior design firms like you know Dana Walters and Betsy Brown and and all these and they're they're high end stuff. Yes. And when I get them to talk about is what they call full service interior design. And it's not just you know the the finishes and furniture they're taking the cutlery and the dishes and the blankets and they're putting this whole especially vacation homes. So all the the owner comes back with their to the toilet paper on the roll. Everything. And they they the the client comes in with their suitcases and they can live there. Yeah I mean the air fryer is already there and I ask a question in one of the little things about were you surprised about this and this is something that you would want to do. And I'm thinking I would never want to do this in my life. Are you kidding? But a lot of students are like this is great because then I can do everything for my client and and make them happy and I'm like that takes all kinds. If that makes you happy that's that's that's available to you.
SPEAKER_06:Is there an end game with the goal sheet? Like will you revisit it the spoiler alert will you revisit it the instrument I haven't really decided none of those students are going to listen to this podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah right I haven't decided yet they I'm gonna give it to them tomorrow and they're gonna bring it back the next week and I'll give them all copies back and maybe I'll uh uh uh hand it back to them when they're seniors. The seniors that I have now I have not had in the class since they were freshmen. Oh wow and so I've joked with them I brought them into this world and I'm gonna take them out at the end. So I'm sure they all laughed nervously all of a sudden Mark's sweating.
SPEAKER_05:Yes. They were they were they were they're excited.
SPEAKER_01:They're good kids and that's why I enjoy it so much. They are they are excited about the profession and um it's fun to go around to these firms and ninety percent of the firms we go to have a Sanford grad in it. Now architects are showing up at these firms. Our first cohort are now fifth year fifth year architects and um they're they're starting to get internships Ed Christopher and DI and other other places. Uh GMC's hired several um and it's fun to walk in and see architects.
SPEAKER_06:Not architects yeah not architects yeah interior designers.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah plenty of interior designers but like I say we encourage them with internships and tell them to change up you know work for a healthcare firm for a little while and work for a residential firm. Get it out of your system find out 'cause we here before I thought that was my dream job and we went to work we went to somewhere as a design firm and the designer I asked them to tell their stories not just show projects but tell me your career journey. Yeah. Because uh it's very simple when you're a freshman you get a job and you keep it for 40 years. And they they heard from a an interior designer that worked for um Taylor Placer Davis uh a couple years ago and she's graduated from Alabama and she said my dream job was to be a fabric designer. Not many people wake up in the morning thinking they want to work for Schumacher but she did and she she wanted to and she did. I was a shoemaker or not but it was some fabric house. And she said I was there six months and I wanted to kill myself. She was the worst thing ever. And so I wish I'd have known that maybe I wouldn't have wasted so much time. Um but you know different you know commercial firms here are different from each other right as well as being different from right from um uh residential firms but you don't know it till you live it and internships like uh you know speed dating kind of thing you can go in there and see how it works out and you get a network built up we push that hard too right uh we're about to have our first uh job slash career fair at Sanford totally dedicated to interior design and architecture. Finally at with 215 kids in the program so we're at critical mass. Right. And there were twenty three slots and we sold them in a week. Okay. And um so the students are it appears to be in high high regard. Right. Uh we got firms from Montgomery and Huntsville coming here not just not just Birmingham too I mean the ID awards the student awards that we give out I think Sanford swept those awards yeah yeah yeah. Um yeah they show well yeah and um anyway.
SPEAKER_06:How much has the program grown since you started?
SPEAKER_01:I mean wasn't there I mean I'm guessing was there 25 students in your freshman in the freshman class 2015 or something like that and then there's 215 now I think when I in 2016 50 maybe you know I remember posting a a photograph of uh my class visiting a construction site and there were 22 of us and there was a designer not young anymore that worked at Gresham Smith way back in the day who was from Sanford and she's like my class was only three people in the whole class I'm like it's changed.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah yeah well it doesn't we we were talking about this before we started recording just how integrated it seems Sanford is within the community now.
SPEAKER_01:Number of interior designers from firms um to mention Catherine Brooks from KPS is there uh Jill Hicks is an adjunct Marshall Anderson who's architect but is an adjunct um well there's 17 adjuncts okay it's completely upside down you're one now yeah because of the uh because of the growth I mean it's uh faculty's hard to find full-time faculty is hard to find and adjuncts are hard to find because these people have jobs right real jobs or full-time jobs and so um getting adjuncts uh Lisa Harriet from um TRO has been an adjunct I mean it's been and with the introduction to architecture then we had to have structural engineers come in to teach building systems and things like that so it was a whole new Julie Hooper is an adjunct teaches history um so uh it's it's grown really fast. Yes and there's been a lot of growing pains.
SPEAKER_05:And I I do think the the tours and I see these on social media that that have been posted but I do think those tours make a huge huge huge difference both with the students visiting but I think even with the design firms you're visiting I think it makes a big difference.
SPEAKER_01:It's interesting how they look at it. Some of them look at it very uh very differently and I think now they've more looked at it as recruiting opportunities. And some do really well and some blow it. Can you name names I cannot let me turn this off. And some do well one time and then do terrible the next so you never you never know. But uh they for all those firms out there um it's not a new business presentation. You know I had to I'd come up with a a set of an outline for these firms what we want to do, you know, talk about your firm and the markets and its culture and history. Show projects no more than eight or ten because I had the firm show sixty projects one time. Sixty wow you know and I thought who's that who did that I thought the kids they were about they were just melting in their chairs. Yeah you know and then show us dropped out of school. Show us around the office and things like that and and introduce us to people, especially Sanford grads that are there. And um the the students respond to energy from firms. You know, having more than one person the worst is the owner of the firm stands up there for 45 minutes and talks about every project they did since 1987. Right. And um get them moving around over move move on. You know and talk about culture. Talk about your charitable things. Uh talk about uh what your firm does other than the work. Um talk about why you do this kind of stuff. That's what they want to that's what they want to hear about. Um they could they can only look at so many you know conference room tables and and e uh OR suites um they kind of get it after that it all runs together. I disagree about the conference rooms I you can look at I guess I sell conference furniture guy yeah over here I do tell them that you can always tell an interior designer in a hotel because they're turning the chairs upside down.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah so did you have any teaching experience prior to Sanford or is was that new going in?
SPEAKER_06:He was my soccer coach for like ten years.
SPEAKER_01:I can deal with anything pretty much the um I did teach once in Atlanta and I can't remember the name of the of the place. I don't know if it's a it's it's uh i it's pre-SCAD days but it was an interior design program and I taught there one semester. This is when I was at ASD. That's how long ago that was twenty six or two but I've I've been involved at Stanford since before Jeannie got there. Um just as a juror. And um they used to have advisory boards and I used to be on advisory boards and and go down to uh Tuscaloosa and do portfolio reviews and and things like that and hired a lot of interns off portfolio reviews which always seemed to surprise them. Do a portfolio review and then call whoever was running the program said tell me about somebody they think they'd be interested in coming to Gresham Smith for the summer and she said oh they'd be very surprised and I talked to him and I said you know would you like consider an internship at Gresham Smith?
SPEAKER_05:He's like I had no idea it was interning I mean interviewing you're always interviewing always yeah always be closing always be closing baby yeah um but anyway I forgot what your question was had you had any teaching experience going into it and I mean it seems like you've really loved it.
SPEAKER_01:It's fun yeah my wife is amazed uh who was a teacher for 40 years and she gave me like 20 minutes. Uh 20 minutes of advice 20 minutes of how long I would last doing it. You know I don't have to tell you this I'm not a trained educator and I like this class I'm doing now it's it's at a it's an extremely high level the research they ask these kids to do and the reading list and stuff like that and the arc of the semester of learning and understanding and doing I don't know how to do that. You know I can I can help I can I can't design that. So we're team teaching uh uh the seniors that there's 40 of them um almost equal the number of interior designers and architects and they're gonna be in teams doing a huge project but they and we get to pick the teams they don't um but uh this that's uh one of the signatures of the Sanford program is architecture intergrated now our Sanford's always been an architecturally oriented uh program at least it was since Jeannie got there. Right pushed push the NCIDQ uh and all that stuff. Some students are a little obviously surprised about it because they want to work on uh how much you know drapery yardage and stuff like that. Well that's the wrong place to be the idea is when you get out of there you could do you could do that or you can go to work for Williams Blackstock or you can go to work for Dana Walters. We got you know students at Gensler and H O K in Atlanta recently that could do anything they that they want.
SPEAKER_05:It it's been interesting because we have had some um interior designers that were fresh out of school and one of the questions that we asked them was what was the biggest surprise coming from school going into the real world and I would say every single one of them for the most part said I didn't realize how many people you had to interact with like the collaboration between all the different professions I had no idea. So it's it's heartening to hear that you guys are pushing them together.
SPEAKER_01:We were we were um actually down the street here at GMC a couple years ago and it was like the second field trip. And I the freshman class is like 24 in there and it's not a one-on-one kind of thing because we go to field trips I don't really get much interaction. I think I know their name if they're really good or they're really bad. But anyway I was trying to strike up a conversation with my sparkling personality you know and how'd you enjoy the first field trip? I thought it was fine. She said but I really don't like working with people of course have you thought about this profession very much I'd um uh now if you know Mary Rooney she's a residential designer she's she's golden she's a second career designer was a teacher and went back to school got in CIDQ but anyway she does residential at her own scale and her own pace and sh but she's great in the classroom. I have her on panel discussions and she says I'm a single practitioner and I talk to fifty people a day because I also have people working for me whether they're posters or drapers or plumbers or carpenters or academy people you know and the client right Doug Davis has a great quote about clients. He said when you do residential and they're spending eight million dollars on a house they own your ass okay it may not use those exact words but um he said they'll they get off work at uh five o'clock and so they call you at six to talk about their house. Right. So you have to learn how to set boundaries on that kind of thing. That's why residential can be can be very tough. Right.
SPEAKER_06:Talk a little bit about your experience with IIDA and how you got involved.
SPEAKER_01:Oh right this is an IDA podcast this is an IIDA podcast yeah we have to remember that what's that again IDA There's so many initials he's been involved with I'm not sure I was president of IIDA president of LinkedIn I think I was president of IBD uh the precursor to ID Oh maybe uh maybe IDA is uh a relatively new thing okay what we're gonna do I'll stop recording we're gonna start over from the top yeah when I when I came here uh came to Birmingham uh there there weren't enough members uh there weren't enough registered designers to have Just for the sake of argument, IDA chapter here. Right. And it was the like 20 was the magic number. Yeah. And so when I had not taken the NCIDQ when I came here, because I was an architect. And it saw no need. Well, Dagum, Alabama's got interior design law, you know, which I believe in. I don't mean to dismiss it. Dagum Alabama. It could be the wrong person at the top of uh AIDC. Right. They mentioned that. Gresham thought it would be a good idea if the Director of Interior Design was, in fact, a legal interior designer. So it meant I had to take the NCIDQ exam at an advanced age. But uh everybody, the whole community, this goes way back. Um in basically there were like three firms. It was Mike uh Gresham and KPS, and I forgot whoever was was really the core for getting IDA started here. They were all like waiting for my results to come back to see if I passed, to see if we could have an IDA chapter. Number 20 on those. But um yeah, it uh I'm not sure how or why I got involved so much. It was y'all go back back in the day of the IDA gala. Um that's a precursor to the progression awards? Wouldn't it call that at one point? Before that. Okay. The gala was the funding mechanism for IDA for the whole year. And it was a it was a big deal. We made it in the 90s, we made$25,000 a night back in the 90s to fund the whole thing. How many nights would you do? Yeah. One show night. Great party. There was a great party. Where we had it. I mean, Chad goes back, he was doing music and uh choreography for that those uh gala events. It sounds like a your a different career, Chad. Like I said, I'm retired. Music and choreography. Retired as a sales rep. Um well, I won't go there. But anyway, um it being in that uh was a way, and we we encourage people at Gresham and any whatever firm, if you're gonna get in join this, be part of it. You know, and and you know, carry the flag when you go there and look happy, dammit, uh when you're there. Um you know, and because it's a recruiting tool. And it's uh it's it's personal insurance that you know other people in the business. Because things happen in this business. Uh firms go out of business. Uh firms change directions and lop off entire uh divisions. And you if you're standing there by yourself, then it's gonna be problems. You're gonna have nobody to call and nobody knows you, then it's gonna be harder to get another job. Um so from a selfish standpoint that to get involved. And I think I mentioned something in the questions you sent me previously, um, that you know, volunteer organization is tough uh because nobody has any incentive to be there other than they're having a good time. Um you're not paying 'em. So if you can keep keep keep things going in a yeah, we don't get paid for this podcast.
SPEAKER_06:You know, what? You don't get paid. We don't have to be a good thing. I said we don't get paid for we don't get paid for this podcast. Yeah, you don't get paid either.
SPEAKER_05:But we do get delicious treats given to us by our guests sometimes.
SPEAKER_06:Yes, this this episode is brought to you everyone by Awake Caffeinated Chocolate. Uh each chocolate piece has actual caffeine, half a cup of joe, half a cup of Joe, which is what we were gifted earlier. Yes, our guests brought guests.
SPEAKER_01:I was trying to make you all be awake at the end of the day here. But it's uh you know, Birmingham is uh I don't know how it is in uh since I left Atlanta, Atlanta's so big, but every industry is a small town. And um Birmingham especially so. But I I can't imagine a r an industry getting along so well together as it does in Birmingham. Uh when I f first took over AI DC or became president, there was a advocacy call of all fifty states or whatever. And they would go through and say, What's the status of your legislation and fundraising and membership and stuff like that? And so Alabama number one, go first, you know, and I'm at home doing this. So I didn't mean that long ago. Um but anyway, and so I talked about, you know, the the the law we have here now for the registered interior designers and the ability to seal. And I said, uh AIDC is really the political arm, et cetera, et cetera. And we have a major fundraiser, which at the time was coming up in like a couple weeks called Night at the Races. I said, we will fund our entire operation on that one event, you know, and raise 20,000 or whatever it was at the time, you know, to fund our lobbyist and other expenses for the year. Thank you very much. Click. They go through every all the states, get the end of Wyoming, and it's over. I'm not really listening. And the woman said, Has anybody got any questions for anybody on this panel? And uh the guy, some guy said, Is that guy from Alabama still on here? I don't wonder how the hell they got twenty thousand dollars in one night in Alabama. We have a good community. On that committee, thank you. And uh because I mean uh said Gresham, everybody's got their hands out all the time for for charities and and good causes. Yeah. And uh especially in a small industry like this, you got ASID, IDA, AIDC and everything out with our hands out all the time. Um but it's been uh it amazes me every year that we we make these goals and we have like 65 or 70 uh sponsors up night at the races every year. And um it's a fun idea. Including architecture firms, which uh is an interesting twist on it.
SPEAKER_05:Can you give us a status of where things are with the with the law?
SPEAKER_01:Stable, I hope. Okay. Uh we decided AIDC decided not to pursue legislation update this year uh for a couple reasons. Uh number one, we have to get our act together a little better. Uh we have a plan to get our act together, but it wasn't the time to do it. Uh the other this is an election year and our lobbyist advised us that uh this is gonna be a quickie uh session. Uh no one wants anything controversial. Right. And so they're not gonna vote anything other than uh uh like consent decree kind of stuff. And so um put it off uh for a year. And uh so that's what we agreed to do. So right now we're we still have our law that allows uh interior designers to seal construction documents for permits up to 5,000 square feet in non-assembly spaces. So that's a lot of restrictions. Um we we think we do chafe under that a little bit, uh, but other states are in awe uh that Alabama of all places uh has that. And Alabama was the first state to recognize interior design as a profession back in the eighties. Didn't mean anything, but uh they did proclaim it that it was something. Yeah. Um it's on the Neocon website.
SPEAKER_05:It is, really. Yeah, if you look at like the just the history of Neocon, it kind of goes to the history of interior design and it was Alabama's being the first. Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_01:Um we'll we'll we'll see if we make a run at it again. Um opposition is fierce uh from other professionals. Um and also the political climate affects it uh a great deal. And we're you know, we're in interesting political climate now. But um uh deregulation, there's there's a prof uh uh legislator that every year introduces the same bill to get rid of all boards, all registrations, whether it's dog rumors or attorneys. Um just let the market decide. Uh and of course, since it's got attorneys in it, that's the end of that. Um but um, if he was smart, he would carve out attorneys. Well, we don't want to be favoritism. Uh the uh interior design is a poster trial for over-regulation. And it it when uh in whenever this law got passed, I can't remember when it was, 2005 or something like that, um there were um radio ads uh against the interior designers. But why are we regulating throw pillow people? Um this is ridiculous.
SPEAKER_06:Who was putting out radio ads? Who was funding the ads?
SPEAKER_01:At the time we don't know, uh but at the time it w the the usual opponents are who need uh some education or architects, but in those days the bigger opposition, as big opposition came from interior design groups, retailers especially, because they were fearful, rightfully so, when they were correct and the law had to be correct, that the their designer, their interior designer at Ashley Furniture or Sherwin Williams would be out of a job and they couldn't recognize the head interior designers. Couldn't use the term interior design. And so the uh term interior design, what the law originally said, went all the way to the Alabama Supreme Court and was thrown out as being too broad. Uh and the term registered interior designer came along. The other piece of trivia for everybody was that up until then there were no square footage or occupancy restrictions on interior design until it was changed to registered interior design. And that was a compromise. And the compromise was again mainly from the architects, was that well, the NCIDQ, you know, it's a decorator test, and when you you guys get your act together and do building systems and building codes, then um then we'll talk. Or maybe you have a separate test to add to the NCIDQ. Um what happened was a national committee IDA, CIDQ and other initials, formed a task force to redo the NCIDQ exam based on the Alabama experience. And redid the A N C I DQ exam. It's purely life safety now. Uh there's nothing in there about you know the history stuff is gone and all that kind of stuff. It's all life safely because that's really what registration means is health safety and welfare of the public. And so the the the test now focuses on that thanks to Alabama. And there were people in Alabama that were part of that task force uh that redid the NCIDQ exam. So yeah, we're still having an effect on things and still looked at as it's hard to say Alabama is uh at the forefront of anything, but uh at least that. That's that's something we can we can point to. Um we'll see what happens in the in 26. We'll get our act together here and um and see what happens in 27. Uh we've learned that everything is done in uh December and January. Um everything is pre-filed as far as bills and things like that. So when they get to the session, there's really no surprises. The consensus is built. Um there may be some activities in Montgomery that we would do um to state our case and have a for presence. But the the the main thing we have to do is make sure the interior designers want this. Right. Some want it, some don't. And uh you know uh my experience is a lot do, but they need to come out of the woodwork and get their hands dirty a little bit.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I mean that's I mean that's we've talked about AIDC um on the podcast before. And one of the things I think is really cool, which we've covered a little bit, but just that it's the impact it has isn't just local, that it it also has reverberations across the country. So it it elevates the the profession of interior design, not here just at home, but also you know, nationwide, which is pretty cool. Yeah, who knew? Yeah. So um we are 55 minutes in. Dang. We've learned everything. Yeah. Yeah. Um so I think halftime. It's halftime, yeah. You said you wanted to take a break at some point.
SPEAKER_06:Chad is gonna put together a little music and choreography for us. And then we're gonna come back. We're gonna raise 20 grand and then uh so yeah. Um so this is the we're moving on to Rapid Fire? Is that what we're doing? I normally we do? Lightning round. Yeah, so they're never really that lightning roundy. They used to be. They used to be, and then it's just uh I would say evolved, some would say devolved uh into into different sorts of things. Uh Chad's usually a bit more prepared uh than I am, um, but that's fine. We both have our brand on the show. I do have one question, so I guess this will count as my first question. You can choose to answer or not. What is your best neocon story?
SPEAKER_01:Ooh, that's a good one. Ooh.
unknown:Ooh.
SPEAKER_01:Back in the day, the neocon was a full week. Sounds dangerous. They've increased the hours. I don't know if it's a good one. There was a uh a rep group from Atlanta that sponsored a skipping contest in the Plaza of the High Rise Jail in Chicago.
SPEAKER_03:What?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. And people came out in, you can imagine, came in costumes with choreography. And I remember there was one particular design group that came as the Wizard of Oz characters with a yellow brick road by Coral Fabric. Thank you very much. Um that was a lot of fun. It was like three o'clock in the morning, and you could see all the lights in the in the jail, you know, with people looking out. Um that and uh my one of my favorite memories of of Neocon is going with Alan Pizzatola to the blues bars at South Halstead, closing one at two o'clock in the morning and going across the street and closing the next one at four o'clock in the morning, you know, and if that stayed up all night, we'd still be there. Um but that's one of one of my favorite meeting uh memories was going um going with those. That and um Billy Dowling with Julie Fasconi and Donna was there, but Julie Fasconi did not have her ID to get into the blues bar, and Billy Dowling flashed him a badge and said she's under my custody and walked in. Because he was a uh deputy sheriff of Pickens County. Something like that, yeah. But he flashed this badge. We're like, oh crap. So I don't I know we're all going to jail.
SPEAKER_06:I know I know Chad's heard this story, and I will just tell this very short uh addendum to that. So you had told me that story before, just as a funny anecdote of one of your trips to s to uh Chicago, because I've known Julie for a very long time. Julie Rockmore now, right? And um and so it's just a funny story. And so then when I got into the industry, I don't know, we I guess we were sharing neocon stories or whatever. I told that story unbeknownst in front of Billy Dally. Because you didn't know it was Pickings County. I didn't know it was Billy. Right. And Billy was, and that's how I know it was Pickings County. I'm pretty sure it was Pickings County. But Billy was like, oh yeah, that was me. Imagine beer. Imagine a beer.
SPEAKER_03:Imagine beer getting anywhere.
SPEAKER_06:And he did.
SPEAKER_05:They let her in, right? Yeah, like, oh sure, okay, whatever guy. Yeah. Um and I mentioned I was trying to throw it in there, but they've increased the hours of Neocon. It now starts on Sunday. Did you see that? Did they really? I did not see that. There's a preview day Sunday 12 to 4 at Neocon.
SPEAKER_06:Is this in reaction to showrooms on Fulton Market? Let's stick to the topic here, gentlemen. I don't know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, sorry. Sorry, sorry. What are your thoughts about that? I'm glad I'm not a rep. It's grueling enough to just attend.
SPEAKER_05:Let's work the damn thing a week. Yep. All right. My first question: what's the best concert you've ever been to?
SPEAKER_01:Dude. One of my first road trip concerts from Atlanta to Charlotte, North Carolina to see the Rolling Stones. Okay. Solid. My ears rang for three days. We were on the fifth row center. And uh it was it was awesome. Yeah. And I also took my son to a rock concert when he was just a boy. Took him to see Pink Floyd at Legion Fields. Nice, nice, nice.
SPEAKER_06:That was my my first concert. And you know, you go you go to these uh, you know, these rep things and these networking things. My first concert, not nearly as cool.
SPEAKER_05:Which one was yours? Culture Club.
SPEAKER_01:That's pretty good though. We went to see Culture Club in Atlanta, and nobody believes we did, but we like got tickets that afternoon. We were on the back row of the balcony.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. And then I I haven't seen Pink Floyd, but I heard them. Um when I was at Vanderbilt, uh, they played the Vanderbilt Stadium, and our house was like two or three blocks away. And so you could crawl it on the roof, so we got some beer and crawled up on the roof and just sat and listened to the phone. Yeah, big Pink Floyd. That's cool.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. Yeah, so it was yeah, it was eighth grade, but yeah, you go to these things and people. Were you impressed by Pink Floyd as an eighth grade? I was. I mean, I knew a few of their songs. I didn't know uh a lot of them. Um I was a bit more impressed with the um the adult ambiance of the experience of Legion Field and a bunch of people that go to fragrance.
SPEAKER_01:It was a fragrance show. Which we need a eighth grade contact high. Well, you know, CPS is you're too old for the tech or go now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:So but yeah, that was that was great. That was a that was a that was a good time. But that's always it's always fun to be able to answer that because people will be like, oh, what's what's your first concert? And be like, oh, it wasn't new kids on the city. I miss City Stages, so that's uh where I am. So yeah, so City Stages, uh precursor to Music Midtown in Atlanta, but for years and years and years, big big time music venue here in Birmingham during the summer. Um what was your fra I guess this is my next rapid fire, what was your favorite City Stages uh show?
SPEAKER_01:Uh there are three. Oh, one was Johnny Cash six months before he left, before he died. That was interesting. Uh Did he look like he was six months away from meeting his maker? We can make it through the set, yeah. White hair. It was really kind of a shock. But anyway. Um probably the most surreal moment at City Stages was Bob Dylan performing in front of the Alabama Power corporate headquarters. Oh, yeah. That would be first to have Bob Dylan at City Stages. You know, City Stages was either they're on their way up or on the way down. You know, Beyonce performed there when she was Destiny's child, you know, nobody went to see her. Um but have Bob Dylan in he's been I've seen him four or five times. Um have him uh it in front of the Alabama Power on an open stage was kind of it was one of the worst concerts I've ever been to.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, really? Wow. Yeah, and I talked to a guy that had seen him multiple times. He's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. He's either really good or he's not. And he said, and I saw the, and again, this was at Vanderbilt, I saw him at Vanderbilt, and the guy was like, and I saw him at that, and that was not a good show.
SPEAKER_01:It seems like he has sometimes a grudge against the audience and it just didn't go well.
SPEAKER_05:He he sounded like he had a the backing band he had was rock solid. And it sounded like he was playing a different song than the backing band. Like they were on the same page and he was on a different page, and so nothing, it just was a you know.
SPEAKER_01:But we've been to a lot of concerts. Yeah. Z Top was a lot of fun. So what was the third one? Third City Stages. City Stages was Leon Russell. Okay. Cool. Because I was always a fan of Leon Russell.
SPEAKER_05:What's the best vacation you've ever been on? And what's coming up next?
SPEAKER_01:Well, since we've retired, we're sp spending Mark's inheritance like drunken sailors. This is why I hope this podcast really takes off. And this past summer we went to Greece and Egypt for most of the month of June. And um it was awesome. Okay. Egypt was awesome. We also took a uh river cruise from Budapest to Amsterdam. Uh it was great. Um, trips out west. We took Mark and Michelle when they were just we lads and lassies out west for a uh National Lampoon style uh uh road trip. And Mark was maybe 10 or 11.
SPEAKER_00:We didn't have a dog when we came back. Um there was a third child as well.
SPEAKER_01:Um I don't think Michelle even remembers going. Um but we went out there and and rented a Lincoln Continental and put 2,500 miles on it in this huge circle route of everything out there. Um, you know, seven states or whatever. And one night we stayed in Las Vegas. Um and I remember I can't remember the name of it now, I don't think it's what the hotel was. Was it Ballys? Uh do you remember this? I I remember the trip. Yeah, I can't remember. I I I I can't remember.
SPEAKER_06:I was I was Michelle was I was probably uh 11 because I feel like Michelle was four or five, and I'm six years older than she is.
SPEAKER_01:It was Michelle's uh swimming pool tour of the West. It's wherever we had to stay at a swimming pool. But anyway, we went to um uh this it was a big hotel uh in Las Vegas, and Mark went in with me to register. And we've been staying at like red roof end stuff, you know, and kind of stuff. And Mark, we walked in and this lobby, the size of the superdome and marble everywhere, and the and Mark's like, Daddy, can we afford to stay here? And I said, Mark, I don't explain it right now. This is the cheapest hotel we've had the whole trip. And then we got thrown out for walking you through the casino. Um that w that was a fun trip.
SPEAKER_06:Um Yeah, that was a that was a that was a good time. I d I remember I do remember, um I remember the trip, but I also remember two vivid memories of that was One being at the Hoover Dam and the thermometer in the car going up to like 114 degrees because it was so hot on that concrete. And then the other was when we the first stop we made at the Grand Canyon. And and I've not been to the Grand Canyon since, but I've told this story before, and it doesn't matter like if you see it for the first time when you're 11 or when you're 50, everybody has the same reaction. Like, okay, I'm gonna go see the Grand Canyon. And then you see the Grand Canyon and you're like, it's pretty big. Holy cow. I've not seen it, but it's not a good thing. No, it's it's it's it's big. It's grand. It's grand. So anyway, they undersell it with Grand Canyon. Yeah, right. Um Who is your most successful hire from Gresham Smith?
SPEAKER_01:I am proud to say that I have several directors of interior design working in this town. That were my former employees, uh Anne Marie Janotis. Um which is an interesting story in itself, how she came to be an interior designer and work for Gresham Smith be on the International Board of IDA. Uh you know, John Beeson, who's director of interior design at Williams Blackstock, and um my mind's gone blank. Um but uh it's funny when I take these my kids, my students around, um, they said, How do you know everybody? I either hired them or gave them a job. I either hired them or fired them, one or the other. Um that going around too. Um when we were here like four years, um Laura and I went out to dinner at that place down in Helena. I can't remember the name of it now. It was a hot spot at the time when there weren't many restaurants in town. And this waitress came up, she said, Oh Jim, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_00:I'm like, Oh, doing good, it's good to see you, you know, and what you been doing? And I thought, thanks. She left and Laura said, Well, who is that? And I said, Well, she was in and she was on it with Gresham Smith. She says, She's still there. No, I fired her like three weeks ago. She said, Is it safe to eat here?
SPEAKER_06:Well, who is your move on? I just want to I I actually wasn't expecting you to answer that question. Um I was expecting you to go, oh, Aaron Griffo was your your your favorite most I guess I worded the question in correctly. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and then he said it's part of my revenge on Gresham Smith. Oh go on.
SPEAKER_05:Well, and I thought like the way he first started answering the question, he was gonna say Aaron Griffin. Yeah, then he just stopped. And then he didn't know. That was interrupted. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I hired Aaron. And after well, I don't know, we'll tell secrets. After she got laid off from Wayne's Blackstock. No, it was uh virtual virtual penal. And uh Laura Parham introduced me to her. Um and she's done extremely well. Now she's studio lead. Uh Jennifer Carr I hired. She was one of those that found no love and um uh uh opportunity in a small firm and wanted to come to a bigger firm where there's always opportunity, to be honest. And now she runs the Birmingham office. So um you can have Erin on here, by the way. She's already been on. Yeah. Did she tell the story about uh the when they found out she was married again? Uh it's funny. She was on a a Zoom call and she'd been Aaron McCullough for eight years, and all of a sudden it showed up Aaron Griffo. And um and there's still people that know me in Nashville and and she's like, Oh, she got married.
SPEAKER_00:She's like, Yeah, Aaron Griffo. She's any relation to Jim Griffo? I can't remember. Oh, I'll make it up, okay? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, she's uh any relation to Jim Griffo? Is it his brother? She's like, hell no, it's his son, you idiot. Maybe she'd use those exact words, but uh, I'm sure they got domestic.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, yeah, I'm sure they did. Yeah, she's she's not shy with her messaging.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and so I think Michelle's on next, right? I think so. I think we gotta, yeah. Yep. And then my family. I'll have my whole family. Yeah, yeah, we chat. So um you just did some of your successes. Who was your biggest failure? Just kidding. Um can you think of an embarrassing story from Mark's childhood that you'd be willing to share? Oh, great.
SPEAKER_01:Embarrassing? Hmm. I don't know if embarrassing is the right word. He um I had a personalized mug down at the emergency room at Children's Hospital for a while because of Mark and Michelle. Um but he fell out of a tree house and broke his arm, and we took him to the doctor the very next day. That's true. Yep.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, well, it's funny you mentioned that because if mom was here and she was, you know, in this conversation, she would be like, because she called. It was the first day of like Christmas break in like n ninth grade or something like that. And yet, you know, uh I was with Chris Chris Whitley. Shout out to my buddy Chris, that the Chad you also know. And um and yeah, we were down in our treehouse and I fell out of the treehouse and my foot got caught on the rope ladder that we had slipped handing up a Christmas tree to Chris. It was a three-story tree house that he and I had built. And you needed some decor. And we had to we had to decorate it, and uh and I was handing it up to Chris and my foot slipped, and then as I was falling, I got caught, my feet got caught on the rope ladder, and so it flipped me upside down, and I landed. I caught myself, but I landed, I got a buckle fracture. And all those details aside to say that when I came home screaming, uh, my mother called the doctor, and the nurse asked on the phone, is the bone sticking out? Or how do you know it's broken? Is the bone sticking out? And my mother had some very sweet choice words for that person. How obviously we would not be having this conversation if his bone was sticking out. Um But yeah, I laid on the couch the entire night with my arm propped up, and then I woke my dad up very early in the morning and I was like, my arm still hurts. Because I think you came home from work with like an ace bandage or something. And we wrapped my arm in an ace bandage. Yeah, and there's a shadow whiskey. And then uh the next morning, yeah, I woke dad up and was like, my arm still hurts pretty bad because then I can't move it. And uh Yeah, it was broken.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, nice. So I don't know how embarrassing that is, but it's more embarrassing for you all as a parents.
SPEAKER_01:If those kids were alive by five, I've done my job.
SPEAKER_06:Right, yeah, yeah. It toughened this up. Yeah, tough as it up. Um do you have um, you know, I I know a lot of people look up to you. Do you have someone that you look up to um in the in the architecture design world?
SPEAKER_01:Uh had a semi-mentor in Atlanta, some of the people I worked for at ASD. Hendrick, I still keep in touch with my old boss, you know, lives in Colorado, who taught me to be tough and be business-like and whole design first. The true good design is good business. Kind of mantra of Marsha Cook at Hendrick. Um, but also Henry Hova, who I met while I was at Georgia Tech. And he was uh the lead guy at Henry at uh Hova Daniels Busby. Um child of uh Cuban refugees. Doesn't sound like they came over here in a boat, they came over here with suitcases full of money. But uh the better way to do it. Yeah, but he was the only Renaissance man that I've ever ever met as far as being a painter and cook and architect and never took himself seriously. He won the student Paris Prize in the 50s as a student, and uh vowed never to take himself seriously. And we used to hang out at his house all the time as students over there, I hate to say, goofing off smoking cigarettes all the time. And he would come by and say, Boys, these are the moments that count. You know, get your ass up and get to work. Um but I had never seen anybody that had a life like he did. Uh very much a social light in in Atlanta. We're on the second hour here. Uh one afternoon. One afternoon we were there in our jeans and t-shirts, and he burst into his house, which is fantastic by the way. My house has a lot of uh Henry Hov influences on it. And he said, We're having a party tonight. I'm like, okay. He said, Y'all want to stay? We're a college student. You think we want to stay in either free now? Um He said, Well, it's the Senate Judiciary Committee and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and we're expecting the mayor and the governor. What? He said, Y'all can hang around, it's fine, you know, whatever. And within 45 minutes, he had the whole place laid out with all this stuff, and phones ringing off the hook, and he picked it up one time and he put the phone back down. He said, Hallie, the governor's not coming, uh the stuff the vice president's not coming, so we won't have Secret Service here. Like that's a thing to think about. Right. Yeah. You know. It was a concern. But we hung out.
SPEAKER_06:Uh bar parties. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:They were they they were there to have uh a party and then they were all going to the symphony. You know, but we didn't get invited to the symphony. Um but um anyway.
SPEAKER_05:What's your happy place? So if you need to chill out and relax, where do you go?
SPEAKER_01:My house.
SPEAKER_05:Any particular spot in the house? Yeah. My house.
SPEAKER_06:Uh Birmingham. That's I guess that's the answer. I guess. Yeah, okay. This is this is a little bit of a generic one from kind of the old school. Is you know, what is your number one design pet peeve?
SPEAKER_05:Limit to one.
SPEAKER_01:Design? What do you mean by design? Oh man, I'm a follow-up question. Yikes. Trying to get information so I can answer you properly here.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. Um I don't know, Chad. How would I this is your question? I can tell you what about pet peeve with designers is. Okay, there we go.
SPEAKER_01:That's what he was asking. Yeah. It's is designers that uh fall in love with their work and don't adapt to change when change is necessary. They'll they'll force the design concept onto something that really doesn't work, but it's so freaking cool that I'm not gonna change it. And you've got to change it. And um somebody that you've met, uh Bill Jordan taught me that he designed Mercedes-Benz, he designed the Jewel Collins Smith Museum, he designed Vanderbilt uh clinic for Hell South. Really talented architect. And he would get to a place where it didn't work, and it was like, Wow, this is the coolest thing ever, and he was like, it doesn't work. That was me wadding it up and throwing it out and starting over. He never fell in love with it. And um I didn't understand that at the time. I thought I thought, man, how could you work on this and not and not uh and not fight for your designs like there's always a better one, you know, and um the Jewel Jewel Collinsmith Museum in at Auburn is one of his one of his top ones, uh which is another three drink story, but hour two, here we go. He didn't do Saturn V, um but uh Mercedes is another interesting whole saga of how we got that job and how it played out with the Germans. It was really fascinating. The Germans. Yes, the Germans, the Germans, yes, they were great. We did Hyundai too, and Mercedes was easier. You think it'd be the other one? Next question? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Um this is my last one. Uh what's your favorite Birmingham restaurant?
SPEAKER_01:Probably Giamarcos. GM Marcos. We try to go someplace every every Friday that's decent. We moved here, there wasn't any place to eat. Right. It was like a Shoney's down 280, and that was bad. We had to go to Crestline to go to Denny's one time, which is another tea drink story because they dropped a tray of iced tea on Michelle's head. Um this is before she fell into the fountain at the galleria.
SPEAKER_06:Um tables at uh what was the name of that uh the the place that was famous for the little sweet rolls? Uh that was a steakhouse. It was a steakhouse, yeah. It's like a buffet steakhouse. It'll come to me later.
SPEAKER_05:Quincy's? It was Quincy's, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Quincy's, thank you. Yeah, she sat down and she was in a high chair, and uh we were all, you know, everybody set their trays down and did their thing, and she, you know, people can't see me obviously on this, is why we gotta get cameras. And she just put her little tiny like two-year-old hands up onto the table and she just pushed the entire table over and everything slid off onto the floor. And we left.
SPEAKER_01:And when we later went back to the children. Yep. So cool.
SPEAKER_06:So we've got a lot of restaurant stories. That is that is another another topic. That's another podcast.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Cool. Are are we done with questions? They go do you go with first? Do you have a favorite child? Uh yes. Yes. Okay, okay. That's all you need to tell. That's good. Yeah. I tell my children um it's like, you're my favorite right now. Right now, yeah. Right now, you're my favorite.
SPEAKER_06:But it it changes. Michelle won't listen to this show. My sister won't listen to the show. So you can tell her that she's your favorite. You never know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:All right. Well, as as you may know, we finished the um the podcast with a custom song for you. So um but what I need from you is a genre.
SPEAKER_01:You've done this to me before. Have I? Yeah, you did that um Oh, I did. You did the interview with a designer. Yeah. It is the early days. It's like 1985 uh CGI kind of stuff. It was it was terrible. With my head bouncing back and forth and telling this designer that you would never amount to anything ever. Yeah. What?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I didn't I didn't do the audio for that. I had to do the, I think right maybe I had to do the video for it and put it all together.
SPEAKER_01:I think it was based on another video and you just put it in my head in somebody else's head. Yeah, yeah. But yeah. Right. Interesting.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. So um I need a genre of music. So what kind of genre would you like the the song to be in?
SPEAKER_01:Uh bluegrass. That'll be new.
SPEAKER_05:That will be new, yeah. And then instead of I've been asked to. Okay. We'll see how they go. Um and then I want a uh what what's the chorus? That's a sentence from a chorus. You you you've got to give me some prompts. So uh I don't know. I could we could pull something from the the podcast, some phrase. I don't know if anything comes to mind. I shouldn't say.
SPEAKER_01:I'm just I'm actually not saying anything because I really want him to say something. Okay. I'm kind of at a loss here to where to where to go with this. That's perfect. That's okay. There it is. There you go.
SPEAKER_05:All right. I'm kind of at a loss. Where to go with this?
SPEAKER_06:This is gonna go great after the uh I'm sure the uh the illustrious career will be worked into the song. I mean that sounds good. That'd be a really great song. It sounds like a blues or blue crack song. Yeah, that's perfect.
SPEAKER_05:Great. Thank you so much for coming on.
SPEAKER_06:I enjoyed it. I'm really excited.
SPEAKER_05:I really I talked more than I thought I was going to.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, you did. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You kept looking at me.
SPEAKER_05:You had something.
SPEAKER_01:Not disappointed at all. Yeah, not at all. Yeah, appreciate you being on. I'm glad y'all have been doing this. I mean, 50 is a lot, so uh who knew, right? Yeah, who knew? No, it's not.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, our Slovenia crowds growing. There's two of them now.
SPEAKER_01:Hey, we got uh uh Poinsetta tree uh fans in Morocco.
SPEAKER_06:Oh, cool, awesome. Somebody was asking about the Poinsettia tree the other day. Do you want to say what that is? You could just trail out. Yeah, so uh so my my parents really great house that they've lived in the entire time we've been in Birmingham, it has a it's like a mid-century ranch style house. Correct me if I'm wrong on that descriptor. Um but it's uh got a really big, great uh center picture window that looks into the living room. And for what is it, 37 years? 34 years this year. 34 years this year, they've put a uh a poinsettia tree. So if you can imagine a Christmas tree, but looks like it's it's made entirely of poinsettia tree. You kind of get the idea. It's not that difficult. I have this is radio and people this is podcasting and people don't know the house. Um but it's it's it's now get it's got its own Facebook page and it gets mail. Um gets fan mail? It gets fan mail.
SPEAKER_01:People send it cases. You said Morocco? Huh? Morocco? When I go on uh Facebook and I look at the insights, it'll be United Kingdom, China, and Morocco with people that have looked at it, you know, whatever.
SPEAKER_05:Nice. Well we'll see if we can grow our presence in Morocco. Yeah. I think so. I think I think with this.
SPEAKER_01:I can hook you up, maybe. It's uh it's just one step one step away.
SPEAKER_05:No, my fingers are right on the button. Like we're just waiting for the all right. Thanks for coming on next to the button.