Nailing History
Introducing "Nailing History," the podcast where two friends attempt to nail down historical facts like they're trying to assemble IKEA furniture without the manual. Join Matt and Jon (or Jon and Matt) as they stumble through the annals of time, armed with Wikipedia, Chat GPT, and a sense of reckless abandon.
In each episode, Matt and Jon pick a historical event that tickles their curiosity (and occasionally their funny bone) and dissect it like a frog in biology class—except they're the frogs, and they have no idea what they're doing. From ancient civilizations to modern mishaps, they cover it all with the finesse of a bull in a china shop.
But wait, there's more! In between butchering historical names and dates, Matt and Jon take a break to explore the intersection of history and pop culture. Ever wondered if Cleopatra would have been a TikTok sensation? Yeah, neither have they, but that won't stop them from imagining it in excruciating detail.
So grab your popcorn and prepare to laugh, cringe, and possibly learn something (though don't hold your breath). With Matt and Jon leading the charge, "Nailing History" is the only podcast where you're guaranteed to leave scratching your head and questioning everything you thought you knew about the past. After all, who needs a PhD when you've got two clueless buddies and a microphone?
Nailing History
125 From Poland to Philadelphia: Kościuszko's Impact
Picture this: You’re trekking through the vibrant fall foliage of the Adirondacks with your best friend, sharing laughs and the occasional grumble along the way. Ever thought about how a spontaneous hiking trip could lead to a deeper understanding of American history? We kick off this episode with a lively recount of our trek up Mount Marcy, where our endurance was tested almost as much as our comedic skills. Alongside co-host John N., we battle the elements and make friends with fellow hikers before an impromptu detour to Saratoga National Historical Park sparks a fascinating conversation about the Battle of Saratoga and a certain Polish Engineer's underrated contributions to American history.
Our escapades don't end on the trails. Hop aboard for a whirlwind journey to the America's smallest National Park, where we navigate train station shenanigans and hilarious mix-ups with a history teacher who can't quite keep her Revolutionary figures straight. This leads to an enlightening exploration of Tadeusz Kościuszko’s life, a lesser-known hero whose strategic genius altered the course of history. From his humble beginnings in Poland to his instrumental role in the American Revolution, we uncover the rich tapestry of his legacy and muse on a fitting Hollywood portrayal.
As we wander through Philadelphia's historic maze, we share quirky tales from our museum visits and humorous encounters with park rangers. With a sprinkle of imagination, we toy with casting choices for a potential Kościuszko film and encourage listeners to share their thoughts on this captivating figure. We're excited to reconnect with our audience and expand our community of history enthusiasts, inviting everyone to join the conversation before the season wraps up.
hey fans, welcome back to another episode of the nailing history Podcast. I am your host, Matt, and I am joined finally with the co-host of the show, John N. Hey guys.
Speaker 2:I am stoked to be back. It's been a wild past couple of weeks but Matt told me, as some of our listeners, our listeners heard last week on the call. He phoned in. He phoned me in and uh, yeah, we weren't getting our money's worth with the old buzzsprout so, uh, we had to take care of that and I'm really glad he called me. Uh, I was in the middle of cooking dinner but uh, it was great. It really felt loose, felt good, and uh, yeah, I was just happy to kind of talk back to you guys got some good response back from the big uh solo episode.
Speaker 1:People said it was pretty good I thought it was quite solid, enjoyed, yeah it was actually, I think, timed in to be a this week in History type thing, at first beginning of August or end of August, I think was when Emperor Norton stated that he was the emperor, I think. So we were going to kind of do it in like a this Week in History type thing. But then, you know, time went by, time flew by, we missed our window for that. And you know, time went by, time flew by, we missed our window for that, and yeah, so I just wanted to get it over with, or get it not over with necessarily but just get it through.
Speaker 2:Well, he was quite the character. I definitely think we had a nice. You had a great chance of sharing that. Fans I was yeah, they did really great. I really enjoyed listening to it. It was nice to see that come back on Thursday morning.
Speaker 1:I guess one of the reasons that we couldn't get into that is one of the Sundays I think maybe the Sunday that we were actually planning to do it. I threw a bit of a curveball in the situation and I actually had time off from work planned, just had to take a week off, and I wasn't going to do anything. The last minute I was like, hey, why don't I go up? It's the beginning of fall. At this point it was like the middle to the end of September. I guess it was the middle of September and beginning of fall, especially up north in the Adirondacks. I figured I'd go up there maybe see some of the leaves changing and just get up there.
Speaker 1:I've been, I was up there years, years before and I uh, I'd always been wanting to go back, so kind of last minute planned on a trip there. I usually go by myself, um, to trips, but I kind of thought I don't want to really go by myself. Let me see if john could go um, you know, with the last minute thing, and he came through and agreed to come up with me. So yeah, so we went up. We spent three, two nights, three days, two nights in the Adirondacks. It was pretty nice A little camping trip.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a really good time. We ascended the highest peak in the state of New York. It was a big achievement for us. Matt was so kind as to get me a t-shirt to celebrate the fact.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mount Marcy in the Adirondacks. If anybody's interested, it's about a 16.2 mile out and back hike. It's a little tough but it was fun. I also have to apologize to the rest of the country. I feel like I made a pretty poor impression on some Brits on the trail. I don't think they really appreciated we were passing them. This was like.
Speaker 2:We were almost done.
Speaker 1:I was pretty wiped at the time and they were. This couple was walking. I didn't know they were from England at the time, but I just go up to them, I go Sup. And they didn't think it was funny or appreciate it at all. They were like hello in their English accent and didn't seem like they were impressed with my Americanisms. Matt, I don't think I said sup. I think I was like what's up? Hey, what's up, what's up, what's up? Something like that, because I was tired and I was just trying to be nice. But then John was like I don't think you should talk to people like that on the trail and I was like okay, sorry, sorry for being me, I just thought you were.
Speaker 2:You got to understand. We weren't in Philly, we were in the Philly area. People were just, you know, yeah, but they were in our country and they should have appreciated that.
Speaker 1:Typical Brits. We had some testy times between the two of us, but that's what happens when you're, you know, spending 24 hours a day together all the way up in the mountains. So we survived, we got through it, we had some pretty fun times and I guess one of the things I guess the lead into this episode uh, on our way back, we uh decided to stop at a national historic park.
Speaker 2:Yes, national historic park park yep saratoga national historical park this yeah, I think it's just saratoga national battlefield, something like that yeah, so, um, so, yeah, so we stopped in there.
Speaker 1:I guess I don't know if if people are super familiar with the battle of saratoga I don't think we've talked about it too much. Some of the some of the fame that came out of that. It was a pretty significant turning point in the american revolution, um, but also it was where benedict arnold really really got his wings, as they would say, in the middle. I guess they wouldn't have said it back then, but in a sense, like he kind of, it was his claim to fame, you know, as far as how he felt he should be respected in the military. You know it was a big win. Benedict Ben McDonald played a significant role in that. And yeah, it's like right on the Hudson River, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's right, on the Hudson River. It was a very important battle. Like Matt said, it was a turning point. By that point of the battle, the Americans, we didn't really have a big battle or engagement with the British that we could't really have, kind of you know, a big battle or you know engagement with the British that we could, you know, communicate to the world saying, hey, no, we're serious and we have a shot at winning this thing. And so by the British army, uh, surrendering that basically told the French, oh, these upstarts might actually do something. And that's basically what kicked off the French and American alliance, which many historians say.
Speaker 1:without that, we would not have gained our independence. It's like almost without a question, so yeah, so anyway, so to get into that, whatever, but really the the real reason to to go there was that this was also people could say, could consider it maybe the crowning jewel of John's boy, tadu Kishusko's engineering feats during the military and you could potentially credit him with a significant part of how they won the battle. That's kind of why we went there, figuring let's see what they have about this guy. I kind of, as we were driving, like, oh man, if they don't have anything about him, that would be so great, because you know how John's always been he's a big deal, he's a big deal and wanted to really see this and kind of prove his point to me. I think was kind of part of it, but also wanted to see it for himself. It's a huge park. They had a driving tour that there was a road that went up, there was a road that went all the way through it, right, 10 miles.
Speaker 2:One way, one way, it's one way, yeah you had to go through the whole loop.
Speaker 1:We were warned about it, but I'm like at 10 miles whatever, and they said it was like a. It was a driving tour, is what they called it, I believe, and they actually had. You could download um audio, like so I assumed, as you were in your car, you follow it around, there might be areas to stop, and then there's a description and you can see it. But what we learned pretty shortly after starting it is like not, you didn't, you couldn't see. You can't really blame the park for this, I guess, but you couldn't see anything really from the road. So you had to stop your car.
Speaker 1:You had the audio, you had to listen, but then you had to park your car, get out and walk around and then there was all this stuff on signs that basically had everything that they were saying to you in this recording in print, and John at first was walking around. I don't know if you remember this, john. You were walking around with that thing on speaker Standing right next to me. We were reading this plaque or this thing that they had for whatever spot we stopped at, and you were playing it on your phone and it was literally the same thing that I was reading, but in a really annoying voice, and I was, like I said, like can you just turn that off?
Speaker 1:I'm reading the same thing and I did and I did thank god, I walked away then too, so I don't know if you have anything else to add as far as that goes. I mean, it was like real, because we didn't have a lot of time and we had a six and a half hour drive coming back and I didn't really plan to spend a ton of time at this park. I kind of thought that it was going to be a quick like in and out. See whatever we did stop, but there was a memorial for Tadeusz Kiszczusko and we stopped there. That was like the second stop. It was like an obelisk, I guess. I think is what it was right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it wasn't a statue of him, it was just like one of those Obelisk.
Speaker 1:Obelisk type thing. Yeah, so we stopped there, we continued the thing I blew past. There was one spot. It's a loop, the whole thing's a loop, except one spot where you turned off of the loop to go see something, to go see the thing that kachushka is known for.
Speaker 2:At this particular battle.
Speaker 1:We just bailed on that which I don't understand why his memorial wouldn't have been at that spot. So it's kind of weird. I kind of figured we were done with the kushko part of it by the time we saw the obelisk there. That's kind of why I made it left. He didn't say anything. I'm like we got to this T intersection and I'm like I'm not going there. We got to go, I made the left and then, as I made the left on the one-way road, he's like that was the most important. I'm like, oh, whoops, Maybe not the most important.
Speaker 2:But if you're there to see what Cachusco's offering was to the battle, yeah, he'd set up fortifications at this spot called Bemis Heights on the Hudson River and by how he set it up that kind of diverted the British. The British could have just come down the Hudson, they had to get off further north. It was like kind of what set the setup for how the battle kind of would unfold. So his engineering feat at Bemis Heights would unfold. So his engineering feat at bemis heights. This guy, this one history professor, says his choice of fortifying bemis heights on the hudson river was probably one of the most important tactical decisions of the american revolution.
Speaker 2:And we took a left whatever I didn't know, I didn't say anything left.
Speaker 1:Oh, it happens, so anyway. So then, so we continue and we leave, and then I guess that kind of got from what I I could only gather, that kind of got john's, got john, that just that little taste of some kashusko, uh, praise I mean I knew it was exciting, I just wanted the validation.
Speaker 2:I wanted you to hear, I wanted you to be validated.
Speaker 1:Yeah I think. I think so like couple days. I don't even know if it was a full week later, john said hey, I'm coming up or you want to go to the museum. Maybe it was a week after we got back from the saratoga trip it was very soon.
Speaker 2:I was starting a new job on October 1st. I had the weekend before that to go, because this museum it's only open half of the year in Philadelphia and it's only open on Saturdays and Sundays. So I kind of had to either go now or wait until spring. And I had it. I was itching to get there. It's been on my bucket list for a while, as I mentioned to you guys before, and as well, the Wall Street Journal did an article on it a few months back now, recommending it. You know, if you wanted to avoid the crowds, it's definitely a good place to go. And yeah, so we made it happen. I mean, like you know, know, when matt sent me that invite for the adirondacks, I I pulled through and then when I asked him if he wanted to come with me to philadelphia, he said all right, let's do it.
Speaker 1:and that's where the adventure began, when our we did another trip to philly yeah, so, um, so, basically, this museum in philly is basically it's just a house that he stayed at um after way after the american revolution.
Speaker 1:We'll get into how he wound up there but it was a place that he came to kind of as a respite. He had some injuries, he was getting better for that, and that's basically all that it was and they, you know, it was a big deal that he came to philadelphia. He was a big deal and, um, pretty surprisingly, they it seemed like that, well, we'll get into it a little bit more, but that's, you know, that's basically why there's a museum for him in philadelphia, because I suppose if you wanted to call, if you wanted to call any place in America home, it would be Philadelphia. I think that's where he landed and I think maybe he just identified himself as a Philadelphian and maybe, as we talk more about his life, these people who are fans, who are from the Philadelphia area, or maybe people who aren't from the Philadelphia area but know people from Philly, might realize that, yeah, he does. As far as for a Polish person, he sure had that little Philadelphia grit to him. It seems like.
Speaker 2:He's pretty gritty.
Speaker 1:That's for sure. So I guess let's get started. We'll talk about our day. One thing that I really want to talk about it's been eating me up since we talked about the our trip to the Museum of the American Revolution is John came on here talking game about how I usually go to Philadelphia taking the Norristown train line, but he's always gone taking the Paoli line and that the Paoli train station is closer than the Norristown train station.
Speaker 2:I don't think that was ever my reasoning. I just said that's I'm a creature of habit, more or less, and that's what I've always done. I've never, I think, the first time we're in the Philadelphia.
Speaker 1:I think when you when you, when we talked about it and when I said, let's go to Norristown do you look to be crazy? Like paoli's definitely quicker than norristown and you kind of looked at me crazy. I guess I'm a little snooty when it comes to taking certain mass transit. So I just want to say so one thing I and I was I'll admit when I start when we started our day I was cranky and I was tired and we got. We got an early start. We had to get there. The park closes at four, so john has been like, was planning four hours there. He wanted to get there at noon. So you know, we had to get there a little early. I mean it was a saturday. It's not like I was, you know, had to set an alarm to wake up or anything, but I was a little groggy in the morning, a little cranky, and it was fine, though we couldn't get coffee. We had to go right to it because john's great idea was to park three miles away from the train station.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I've got family who live in the Paoli Pennsylvania area and I've parked there before he's got they have excess parking Well how he pitched it, how John pitched to me.
Speaker 1:He was like, yeah, this gentleman who we won't name the relation or anything, but john would say he lives, he lives right next to the train station, we'll just park there. So I'm thinking, all right, whatever we could. Always it's a big giant parking lot, but whatever, we'll park there. So we get to the train station and as we get to the train state, so we we drive past the train station. You know, there's extra parking, I get it. There's extra parking where john knows where it is. We get to the train station. So we drive past the train station. There's extra parking, I get it. There's extra parking where John knows where it is. We get to the train station, we pass the train station, I go, there's a train station. He said, oh, we're going to park at so-and-so's house. I say okay, and then he keeps going. He crosses the intersection, goes down a block, makes a turn, another turn, another turn. I mean we're driving for five minutes. I start losing my mind.
Speaker 2:It's raining outside and I start I'm like what is this?
Speaker 1:what misting it was misting outside, okay, and I guess I could blame myself for not dressing properly shirt, and it was september and any, but anyway, he was blaming you, I was losing my mind. And then he's blaming me for not being properly dressed, but we parked there, we parked there we walked we walked in Dunkin Donuts. It was probably a 15 minute walk from where we parked to the train station would be my guess when we could have just parked at the train station clocked it at 12.
Speaker 2:don't. Don't tell our fans who no, no, no, no, it was 12. Don't tell our fans who no, no, no, no, no, it was 12 minutes. Okay, you clocked it you timed it.
Speaker 1:I did time it. Okay, whatever, 12 minutes. So I'm just going to say out there, numbers don't lie. Paoli train station is 5 minutes closer to where we live than the Norristown train station, but the train ride is 13 minutes longer from Paoli to Philadelphia. So, right there, norristown is 8 minutes faster, just going that way. You add the 12-minute walk, we're at 20 minutes longer. The process to get to Philadelphia is 20 minutes longer if you go through Paoli.
Speaker 2:That's a good day and unfortunately, we decided to take the train on a bad day.
Speaker 1:Train was 27 minutes late Class, except I mean Saturday morning. No reason for it to be late, except, I don't know, maybe the conductor overslept, I don't know, I think it was the remnants of that hurricane too, were coming up from Florida.
Speaker 2:You know a little bit of of weather and you just stay in bed we had a gentleman approach us and kind of butt in on our conversation, yeah yeah, it was the classic list. Like you know, the times when strangers finally talk to one another. You're all being chapped because you're waiting for a train 25 minutes and one person makes an off the comment oh, here we go.
Speaker 1:And then he's like oh yeah, and I'll like I'll start like throwing shade at the septa together.
Speaker 2:That's something we can have, it's a bond we can form and then, you know, become friends for life. Sort of deal on a trade from a trade station. But we met this gentleman based on.
Speaker 1:We were talking about our trip to the adirondacks and how, something about us being lost or maybe being lost or john not having a map, something we were talking about something like that and this guy just buds in and goes oh, my mom, uh, back in the 70s my mom got lost on an island. We were like, oh wow, mind you, this guy is wearing a sherlock holmes hat and a black duster guy was sleuthing out. There, turns out I mean I asked the question.
Speaker 2:I I looked I think I looked at matt. I was like should I, should I respond? He wants a question from us? I know he does. I can feel it brooding from him. I was like so like I'd like beer, you like beer?
Speaker 1:huh he said he was going to breweries, right? Is that what happened? I somehow, he like turned into talking about beer. Is that how it was, or oh? We were talking, yeah, yeah, we were like because we were complaining about the train waiting and then we were talking about how they should have a bar so that people could wait. That's what happened, right, people could wait and like have a bar and actually have they should.
Speaker 2:They should make money off of it and then he immediately, like matt, just said that you know, just making pleasant conversation as we're waiting for this late train, and he literally takes his phone out and he's like oh, paddington Station in London's got that. And we're like excuse me, oh cool, yeah right.
Speaker 1:Then he just Like Superman, taking off of his normal outfit to get ready to save the world, he busts open his duster. Thankfully he was wearing clothing. I was getting worried about that. He busts open his duster to reveal a shirt that reads Beer is made from hops. Hops are plants, beer equals salad. But he doesn't acknowledge it at all. He busts it open and then he's just Because it was closed we're talking a little bit about beer open. And then he's just because it was closed we're talking a little bit about beer. And then he's just like, walk pacing back and forth with his duster wide open, showing off this t-shirt.
Speaker 1:So I think obviously just inviting us to ask him about it so I think I finally broke and was like oh, that's some shirt you got there, huh yeah, because I'm like taking notes. So I'm like taking notes of her, I'm trying to take notes of our trip, so I immediately take my phone out and start taking notes about this guy. And I definitely wanted to get what his shirt said. So I kind of made it like oh, what's that shirt say? So I could really look at it to really say exactly what it was. Yeah, I hate people like that.
Speaker 2:But then I asked him we got talking enough. He's like, oh, what are you doing there? He's like, oh, I'm going to some breweries. And where did he say he was going? Ardmore.
Speaker 1:He was going to take like a freaking three-hour long train ride.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we crunched the numbers Like oh my gosh, yeah, so he was already there 45 minutes waiting for this thing and then he just had another hour and that sweet hat. But regardless.
Speaker 1:I think I said to I wrote the note in there is I would rather deal with the criminals in Norristown than these chooches they have in Paoli.
Speaker 2:Oh, and chooches they do have.
Speaker 1:It was crazy, that guy was weird. So yeah, once you got on the train I don't think there was much drama, correct? No, it was fine, we were good. We got out, we got off the train. We kind of knew we were going because I think we like, once we got into the city, john was hungry, we were both a little ornery, so we got some italian beef. Couldn't find seating in Reading Terminal.
Speaker 2:What it was Italian pulled pork, oh sorry, italian pulled pork In Reading Terminal Market.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:A little bit of a tradition I guess we got. Now. We got them loaded up, Felt like chooches. We couldn't find a table, so we ate in the mall, the gallery in the mall next in the train station, we found this random table. It was. It was hard. It was a horrible experience. We walked for miles looking for a place to sit down to finally eat these sandwiches, but anyway. So all that happened, john was able to wash his hands. He was happy, we got, we got. We got a good, nice, clean bathroom in the gallery.
Speaker 1:That's it, I'm good, as if our fans know I mean I wash them too much, but I was, I was, I was a happy camper so, finally, after a 27 minute delay of the train, having to deal with this choose with his uh beers made from hop shirt um, getting our food, not being able to find seats, all this stuff was happening. It was kind of like a raining. We parked 15 minutes away from all this stuff was just like boiling up like this. It wasn't a bad day, but it was like, wow, this is a process like so far. I don't know if you felt that way I knew it was like.
Speaker 2:I feel like I knew it was going to be. I feel like, just like when you have a target, that is, a museum that's open saturdays and sundays for half of the year from noon to four, it's like I don't know, the stars are gonna have to align for this to go off without a hitch. And you know again, because we're using septa and going into philadelphia- and we're two, two freaking suburbanites going into the city.
Speaker 1:You know, two people with no street smarts going into the city.
Speaker 2:It's not a good, not a good situation that's why I wanted that extra time give us that buffer so we could get there and the doors open, and we were pretty close. I feel like we got there probably at 1230.
Speaker 1:so we finally get in that. We find it, we finally get in there wait, let's tell them where it is, it's in what old city well, yeah, they want to go so it's on what's the street, what's the cross pine, and third pine and third pine street and third street in old city where all of the historical stuff is. Yeah, it's a nice area of the city for sure. If you're going to go into the city of philadelphia, old city is probably the place to go sure.
Speaker 2:If you're going to go into the city of Philadelphia, Old City is probably the place to go. Yeah, if you could avoid all the trains and everything and just be teleported to anywhere in Philadelphia, I'd probably say that's the neighborhood.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure. So we finally get in. It's an old house, old-looking brick house. It's cool-looking, though it's really very it seems authentic. We walk in, bust through the doors and nobody's there except these two national parks rangers, kind of lounging in the chairs, just kind of like what's up? That's kind of the feeling I got, like I can't imagine how many times they get people coming in and they're just like what is this, you know?
Speaker 1:or like they're just surprised when you run into people. Yeah, so, um, you know, again I bust in and, like I told the two, we got to do kushuska's number one fan here and they were like, oh, and then he had a little bit of a talk about it. They talked, he talked again about the book that he read, about him and they were like, oh, that's cool. They kind of gave us a rundown he busted out the book.
Speaker 2:He had the book too. He said, oh, I'm also reading it, it's a great book. You're leaving out key details to other fan fandom. Other people have fan boy, fan girl vibes with this guy, so okay.
Speaker 1:So so that he's talking to him and they're having a good conversation with them for the most part, but they're kind of like, yeah, enjoy, enjoy, rightfully. So they're having a good conversation with them for the most part, but they're kind of like, yeah, enjoy, rightfully. So they're like enjoy the museum, this is kind of how it's set up, and then enjoy. So I'm walking around, my eyes just focus onto this picture of Tadeusz Kuszczusko in a bed sprawled out like in the Titanic, the Rose from Titanic, naked, pose on on a couch. The first thing I saw when I walked in there.
Speaker 1:It was pretty wild it's, and it was funny and like I was like john, look at this picture. I took a picture with my phone and it just seemed to be the most common theme of the museum. You see that picture everywhere. It's on the pamphlets of the museum. He's kind of like leaned up just like roses, with his hand on his head, like oh boy yeah, I think he was a little bit worse shape than rose from titanic well, but I'm just saying like he's like got it.
Speaker 2:It's like he's got his head on his hand, you gotta, you gotta see this picture you guys been, like all the national parks always have like a little brochure you can take home and the brochure for this place which they have you can grab when you walk in. It was that picture. It was that painting of him like holding his yeah on the couch, like holding his hand to his head, like, oh, they like yeah, that it's an oi ve type pose, which is just it's funny.
Speaker 1:I think the reason that it's the picture like there's obviously cooler pictures of this guy, but it's a picture depicting his time recovering at this house, so that's why it's there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we're walking around, so like the first, the first area is like the museum is like, uh, his american revolution stuff, kind of a lot of the stuff that we had already learned about in saratoga. But you know, as I'm like perusing around, john's kind of, we're all kind of perusing around me and him are perusing around, then in comes this woman and she's just busted. She's like, hey, ha, how's it going? And they're like, hey, how's it going? She's like, ah, I, uh, I'm, I don't know how she exactly introduced herself, but she's like I'm a history teacher in fourth grade for fourth grade in virginia, and you know, I know all about this guy.
Speaker 1:This guy, yes, she did. She's like, oh, yeah, I know all about this guy. Yeah, I, uh, I was just teaching about him or something and I'm like, so, I'm like listening, I'm like history teacher interesting. And then the, the, the national parks are. They're like, oh, oh, that's, that's cool. Yeah, yeah, he's a pretty good guy. She's like now he's the guy who, um, you know, taught the army how to be an army. And then it started dawning on me and I'm hearing about this, uh-oh, this woman's confusing him for Baron von Steuben Classic mix-up. And you know the National Parks are. So she comes in trying to be like I'm so smart, I'm a history teacher, I'll teach you government employees, whatever, and you could tell the national park. We're like, oh yeah, I guess kind of like you know they knew it too. And then like, yeah, I guess he kind of did. But you might be thinking of von Steuben and I like nudge John. I'm like, oh boy, we got another one.
Speaker 2:Got one hook line and sinker on this one. So it was just it was embarrassing for the state of America. It was very embarrassing, it was pretty embarrassing.
Speaker 1:I would have been embarrassed if I was her for sure, and I think she maybe was, because I don't think she even lasted very long in the park.
Speaker 2:It's a park, though it is a park, though it's the smallest national park in the entire country.
Speaker 1:But she didn't last very long. We park though it's the smallest national park in the entire, but she did, she didn't last very long. She kind of got like we were all like interesting, and then whatever. But the national park service people were actually being kind of nice about it because I guess at least they knew something. But like she knew something about it but she knew nothing about kachusko for sure.
Speaker 2:Once they started talking about she's like uh, whatever she would have just been better off saying I was in new york once, going up to the Adirondacks and I crossed over a Cachusco Bridge. That was really just part of the highway, an overpass, an overpass, I mean she would have been better off with that, it would have been less judgmental.
Speaker 1:So anyway. So what I figured is this history teacher didn't know about it this fourth grade history teacher from Virginia. You know, I it this fourth grade history teacher from Virginia. I guess we have to take it upon ourselves as the Nailing History Podcast to educate our listeners and any people, our listeners and teachers and everything. As I said on my solo episode, I have a nephew in seventh grade learning about American history, so hopefully he listens to this episode and learns something for himself about who this fellow is and maybe he can, you know, really impress his history, his seventh grade history class, with some knowledge about this guy. So do you at that, with no further ado, before we really get into the talk of how the museum is, kind of just want to go over kashusko's life. Does that make sense, john?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah, because the museum is not laid out. Yeah, it's, it's very american centric, I think, as matt said, as you walk in.
Speaker 1:But uh, yeah, his life kind of like it starts off like showing about his, his american history, that then they have one room. It's small part, obviously. It's a small park. They have one room. That's about his background. Then you go upstairs and it's more about his american stuff and then they have the room. But we'll get into that. So let's just get started. In his early life, this guy I mean there is there is something to it. Like I said when we started this episode, he does have a bit of an air of philadelphiaan with him in him, like a little bit of a grit. He's like a gritty guy. So you know, we'll, you guys, we'll let you guys be the judge on if we can present to you how he was and let us know what you think I do.
Speaker 2:He was born. Go ahead and try to say his full name.
Speaker 1:Well, no, I'm not going to say that. I was going to say he was born into it. He was raised in the middle class. I think we, I think as an American people, we, you know not to comment on anything more. We may have heard that sentence a little too much in the last three months. If you guys can follow me, Buzz phrase oh boy, Anyway, John, you got his name, you got his full name.
Speaker 2:He was born Andres Taduz Bonaventura, costa chusco.
Speaker 1:English translation andrew thaddeus bonaventure, costa chusco in uh february of 1746 so I will say one thing that I left out with the national park system people when we first walked in was they? One of the first things they did was give us a lesson on how to pronounce his name Cause, choose, go, yeah, cause we can't. I came in with I don't know how I pronounced it. I know John's first time pronouncing it Wasn't right. I mean it's it's a hard one to do it. So we got it from the experts. I, I, I can confidently say that we are now pronouncing his last name right Kozchusko, kozchusko, yeah, kozchusko.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he was, as Matt said, born middle class, but I mean that wasn't really a distinction in the 18th century. But he was not born poor, he was not born into an aristocracy, he was kind of like middle I guess you'd call it middle gentry. So they had land, they had some serfs, who are people that work the lands um.
Speaker 1:His dad was in the army. His dad was in the army, which we know which.
Speaker 2:Over history, that usually brings some credibility and credentials and you get, you know land and property, whatever. So he was born in a you know well, well enough to do you know um for himself he went.
Speaker 1:He did go to school like his, you know, advanced for advanced learning, but he had to drop out because his family did end up like losing money. I think his brother dropped a bunch of it.
Speaker 2:There's the family estate and, um, you know he, he became a military engineer that's kind of what he's known for the revolution. But he did a lot of self-teaching. Uh, he became a really good drawer. Uh at one point, yeah early on his life, before he came to america, uh he went to france and, uh, other parts of europe where he was kind of self-taught and because he was polish he couldn't actually enroll into any of these academies. We know these, these military.
Speaker 1:Well, he did he was a member. He did join a polish academy called the corps of cadets that educated military officers in poland and he did graduate from that.
Speaker 1:He graduated from that, became a lieutenant, a lieutenant and then became a student instructor. So he was very interested, it seemed. I gather he was very interested in the science and real, the real knowledge of mill. It's like the real strategy and science of military from an early age to the point where even though he graduated I guess at that point there maybe wasn't an active war to do so he felt the need to instruct.
Speaker 2:So he was definitely more on the side of the, the nerd end of military yeah, he just he kind of, I think, looked at a whole picture and certainly engineering, you know, it's a major part of wars and logistics. I think he kind of definitely took to that, but he, he wasn't afraid to run from a fight, as we'll find out later in his life, um, but yeah he was. He kind of became more or less self-taught and went to all these different academies, you know, and kind of just was a fly on the wall, you know, in France and the like. But to kind of give a bigger picture of kind of you know why kind of the world he was born into, or I guess that he, you know, became a man in, really so at the time.
Speaker 2:Poland wasn that he became a man in, really so at the time Poland was its independent kingdom, but over the course of his life it would slowly be carved up by the three major powers in Central Europe at the time, which were Austria, prussia and Russia, and so basically all three of these great powers were kind of seething at the mouth, foaming at the mouth, you know, trying to basically, you know, have their own influence and sway and take some land and property and take land away effectively from the Polish and Lithuanian, you know, residents and yeah.
Speaker 2:So the Russians were very, very, um, very big and kind of, you know, having their sway. Catherine the great, who was the Empress of Russia at the time, she kind of shacked up with the King of Poland to try to have influence and sway on him. But um, yeah, when he was, when he was of age so after, but yeah, when he was of age, so not long after he graduated from that Corps of Cadets in Warsaw, you had the first partition of Poland and that's when they first started getting kind of carved away. He didn't fight in that one.
Speaker 1:He was too busy, kind of running around trying to flirt with a very influential and very wealthy aristocrat, his daughter. Well, you're kind of missing a point of his life which part. He traveled around to Paris and he did return to Poland when that was going on, but at that point his brother lost a ton of the family, money and land while he was away in Europe. And when he came back, that's when he couldn't afford an officer's commission and that's why he ended up not joining the army, that's right. So it's not that he was too busy, it was that he couldn't afford an officer's commission, so he wasn't able to. He wasn't noble enough.
Speaker 2:So because of that then he ended up just becoming a tutor for some fancy man, and I don't know was that in france or was that in switzerland no, this was in back in poland, where he took a tutoring for the fancy man for the fancy man's daughter, who he took a shining to, who he took a liking to, yeah, and they basically they secretly eloped, and then word got back to the dad and he's like uh-uh, like you can't marry out of your class and you're certainly not going to marry my daughter. So he basically had to flee for his life.
Speaker 1:Um, you know his dad had these his henchmen like beat it, beat it, beat him up and chase him after him. So he bailed because of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he bailed and he eventually got wind that there was a revolution going on in America.
Speaker 1:And he fled to Paris, and that's where he found out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I guess it was all the talk.
Speaker 1:It was all the talk in Paris which would make sense. The French hated Britain, so they're like oh, these Americans, they're trying to good for them, but I don't know if that's going to happen. I think that kind of gave him like oh, underdog story, that's all about me. Remember Philadelphia Kosciuszko? That sounds familiar. Polish Getting shafted. You think about the Broad Street bullies. He probably would have been a member. A little underdog action. So yeah, so he learned about that. Then he came to America.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one month after the Declaration of Independence was signed.
Speaker 1:He was jacked up because he smelled revolution and he was all about revolution from the whole situation with Poland and Russia and he was an advocate of human rights and just the American culture in general. So he was all pumped up and was like I'll go, I'll sign up, Even if he's not part of his country. He's like I'll do it. He sees oppression from Britain, from England, I guess america, and he wanted to be a part of it yeah, definitely a son of liberty, because unfortunately, he wasn't allowed to do it for his own country that's right.
Speaker 2:So he had to go to an adopted land, which america would certainly become in his life. But uh yeah. So he shows up in philadelphia in august of 1776 and I guess he gets I don't know how he gets his address. He manages to find his way to Ben Franklin's house and he basically just goes to his door, knocks on the door and says hi, I want to sit your officer's exam, like I want to. You know he thought Engineer's exam.
Speaker 1:Sorry Wasn't it, it was an engineer's exam.
Speaker 2:Engineer's officer I think they were included together but just like a very formal exam. He thought, you know, like they have in France, or you know, the older countries of Europe. He thought, oh, america, they must have like a formal way of assessing who could be a qualified officer or engineer, what have you? And Ben Franklin's like, yeah, we don't have that, but he did say I can give you a geometry exam, maybe a little more basic for you. So he gives him that and Cachusco crushes it flying colors. And Ben Franklin's like, effectively, like you're hired, Like let me talk to my people being, you know, those people being like John Hancock, and we'll get you commissioned into the army. And that's kind of what happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was given an assignment and one of the first things he did was put these spikes in the Delaware River, that kind of like you put these rocks formation and then you have these like wooden pikes sticking out of it in the water. So if there was like any British ships coming into trying to make their way into Philly, puncture the holes of the ship, and Ben Franklin was super impressed by that. So like wow, we got a smart one here. We can't let this guy go.
Speaker 1:Let's send them up to northern New York, upstate New York. Yeah, so they send them up to upstate New.
Speaker 2:York. One of the first places he's sent to is Fort Ticonderoga. He's asked to kind of survey that and, um, the big thing that happened there is, you know, again he comes here. He's this polish guy. Actually everyone thought he was french because he only spoke french, um, so they didn't even know he was polish. But he goes up to fort ticonderoga and, you know, he kind of does his assessment and there's apparently fort ticonderoga, which is way in upstate new york, not far from where matt and I were, but it's up on the hudson river, it's north of saratoga, um, super important, um you know, fortification at the time and uh, I think it's a place where benedict arnold gets pantsed at one point. Ethan allen, didn't we talk about that once? They?
Speaker 2:were sent up there. Anyway, he's up there and he's asked, like you know, he's trying to do his assessment and find ways to fortify. And he, this guy, he always said we got to find the high ground, you know we. So there's this, there's this site, overlooking fort ticonderoga, and he's like we got to put cannons up there, we got to put guns up there, because if we don't do it, the british are going to and the rest of it forget, don't be such a worry.
Speaker 1:War to to do's, don't worry about it, we're good. That's crazy. That's too much work. Classic, I mean. This is just like um there's probably not many listeners who live in my world, but the difference between engineers and construction workers, this is the battle that we deal with. The same exact thing like well, maybe we should do that, don't worry about it. College, oh, would you learn that and would you read that in the book one time? High ground dirt. I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. It's too much work. It's classic. That's what happened. And guess what? Bit him in the butt.
Speaker 2:Bit him in the butt they did not choose to, you know, to arm this high ground, put cannon up there and, you know, basically has defensive works against the british. Long story short, british end up doing it. And then, very soon after, the americans have to evacuate for ticonderoga and the british I think everyone was like, oh man, maybe we should listen to that guy yeah, made a bit of a whoopsie, but he's actually partly responsible.
Speaker 2:So they all flee and they have to come down south, down the Hudson River, and that's kind of where this campaign that would culminate in Saratoga begins. So they start making their way down south on the Hudson River and he's his team are kind of finding ways to fell the trees so that they can delay the British from moving quickly. They're trying to get to New York City.
Speaker 1:This is all to stop them from taking the Hudson down to New York City.
Speaker 2:Yes, because you get that. I mean, that was the waterway of the colonies, that was one of the major waterways up into french canada or british canada, sorry. Um, yeah, if the british got in control all of the hudson river, it would be bad news bears. So, yeah, so they're coming down after they abandoned fort ticonderoga, they're felling trees. They do a really successful job, so, whatever he did. So his superiors started noticing oh, like that actually really bought us some valuable time.
Speaker 1:I think that and the Ticonderoga thing they're like this guy knows what he's talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're like oh, you know, he wasn't.
Speaker 1:Let's give him a shot. He wasn't on rock star status.
Speaker 2:yet he was like oh, this guy's smart, this Polish engineer can't say his name, can't write his name.
Speaker 1:we'll keep an eye on, seems like a bit of a goof ball.
Speaker 2:I heard he got he I heard he got right out of poland chasing some what a loser.
Speaker 1:But let's start listening to him. Classic classic engineer v contractor thing. Like you know, this guy's just telling us what to do. He's not doing it himself, like that kind of stuff, and he was self-conscious. But then they say so, then they get. They get the. You know, we already talked about saratoga's, we don't really need to get into it any more detail.
Speaker 1:But they get to saratoga and they say, all right, let's give this guy a shot right, yeah, so he fortifies bemis heights he comes up with his plan and they finally listen to him and they win, they win, yeah, and they give him a lot of credit for it.
Speaker 2:Give him a lot of credit for it. France sides with us. Word gets to France. Ben Franklin, at that point he would have been a diplomat, an ambassador, out there. He got word and he would have been milking that for everything he could. The French and American alliance would begin as a result of this battle.
Speaker 1:Then Kachusko gets down the West Point. George Washington is like this guy's the man. Everybody starts liking this guy. Let's start listening to him. But then I think in classic to-dos fashion, where people he was more of a salt of the earth type guy, growing up middle class as we talked about he's like like you know what, I'm ready to get my hands dirty, I'm done with this engineering thing, or maybe not necessarily done with it, but I'm gonna do. I'm gonna. I want to do a little bit more. And he asked for a commission to be able to get some guys to fight and actually get his hands dirty down and down south yeah, george washington personally granted gachusco's request to transfer to combat duty with the Southern Army.
Speaker 2:And yeah, because his West Point fortifications were praised as very innovative at the time, and so Washington was like all right, dude, you can do whatever you want, you're single-handedly winning this war for us.
Speaker 1:So the North was taken care of pretty much at this point, with all the stuff that was done Saratoga and all that stuff, the North was In general there wasn't much action anymore and it was all down the Southern Theater. So I think Kosciuszko realized that and was like I want to get down there, I want to get my hands dirty. So then he started fighting and he started fighting under my boy, nathaniel Green, who was running the show down there. Nathaniel green loved him and they did some. They did some damage down there. I don't know if there's any definitive like wow, a big change for making these boats, these like flat bottom boats that were super important.
Speaker 2:In one, I think, there was one battle which wasn't going well it would use those boats to cross the river, otherwise they would have been routed. Yeah, um so anyway.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, it was in me. There was, I think, one point. He was in the last, he was involved in the last major skirmish in the war, but one thing that I read that was pretty cool. Uh, he had a sword that he carried around with him during the war and it was, and it was inscribed with the words do not draw me without reason, do not sheath me without honor. Pretty cool, that's pretty awesome. Now that is. Uh, I was thinking that would be a pretty funny tattoo to put, like I guess maybe your bicep would be cool like don't draw me without I don't know, like on both arms, just like half the logo, don't draw me without reason.
Speaker 1:Don't sheath me without honor, like in the middle. Yeah, that'd be pretty cool. Uh, I was thinking. It just reminded me maybe Charles Lee could have used that advice during the Battle of Monmouth, where he was retreating and Washington says you might not have undertaken it unless you intended to go through with it when he talked about how he was retreating. So I thought pretty polar opposites between Charles Lee and Tadeusz K kishusko and I wonder what to do's kishusko would have thought of charles lee. Probably would have.
Speaker 1:Probably would have scoffed at him oh, I'd say so yeah so yeah, so then, so then, I guess just not getting too much in the weeds. Then, after the war he leaves back for poland. But as john, as john suggested, or john already alluded to, he didn't get paid for a service yeah, um late 1783 he was became.
Speaker 2:He became a naturalized american citizen. So after the war and after the treaty of paris was concluded, he was deemed a naturalized citizen. And uh, he was going to be responsible for putting on a fireworks display for the 4th of July of that year. But he's like, I got to go, I got to go.
Speaker 1:I got to get my home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but he was promoted to. Brigadier General too. That was the big thing.
Speaker 1:But he did receive a certificate. While he was, before he left, he received a certificate which I guess is like a promise or like a I don't know a bond. Promissory note right, which I guess is like a promise or like a I don't know a bond, that he would receive $12,280 at 6% interest, which in in $2,022 that's $323,000, paid in installments of $19,400 a month. That's pretty sweet. That's a lot of money for, like not that much many years of work right 1776 to 1783. Seven years, I guess that's not.
Speaker 2:I don't know if all generals were given that, but that was a big point of contention Everyone's like well, he needs to be. He needs to leave the service with a general's commission in order to be qualified for that pay, as well as 500 acres of land. We look at it now. How much every property costs. Now Imagine me sitting on 500 acres of land. I think it was in Ohio is where they were giving it to them. It was now Ohio. It's a lot of money.
Speaker 1:I guess you're not up on the current lingua of the youth generation, but the word Ohio means like whack.
Speaker 2:I do not know that Also state what you never heard, that. No.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's a whole thing where, like, if you say like dude, that's so ohio, that means like it's whack. So my uh, I'm learning from my nephew who hates to talk about it. But yeah, like, if you have ohio r, it means like you're whack.
Speaker 2:So what if you say, like that's Ohio. You're just describing some scene in Cincinnati. You're like, oh, it's so Ohio.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that's. The point is like Ohio's lame People from Ohio are lame, so you're saying to do is could choose go. I'm just saying the land might not be worth that much if kids these days are calling it skibbity out there. You got to get up with the lingo, john, but anyway, yeah, I get it. So he got promised mad bank, but I guess at that point you could promise anybody, anything Made a general, you could promise anybody anything, because they weren't going to get it anyway, so whatever.
Speaker 2:When Washington gave down his commission in Francis Tavern up in New York, he was there right along the side.
Speaker 1:He was like crying, conducted into the.
Speaker 2:Society of the Cincinnati and he wore that medal. A lot of the paintings he's in there's a picture of him wearing the medal from the Society of the Cincinnati, which is yeah, it was a super important.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, so anyway, so really his real claim to fame, like in the worldwide history we haven't even got to yet, because then he leaves phil, he leaves america back for poland and when he gets back to poland again his brother's still being a bum, losing his, losing his family's land and losing his money. So he still can't afford an officer's commission. But then he finally gets it in 1789. An officer's commission. He gets paid 12 grand zillots a year it was lotties, I don't know how you say it which is apparently a lot of money. It takes care of his financial problem once he finally becomes an officer in the polish army. So then in 1792, as john kind of alluded to poland's getting split up, russia really wanted poland and all this stuff was going on. Then finally, in 1792, the run for like the third time, or you know one final like while he's over there 1792, the russian army crossed the polish border, finally starting the polish-russian war of 1792.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, katherine the great was furious that the polish, they polish in in saving the vein of the american revolution, the french revolution. They came out with a constitution which, you know, absolute monarchs hate. Uh, you know, she wanted to have all this influence in poland and she's like, yeah, we're not having any of that. And so russian troops moved in he was an officer.
Speaker 1:He didn't lose a single battle during that war, even though they, the poland or whatever, whatever the commonwealth, whatever you consider, they lost the war, but tk didn't lose a single battle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the Russians had a three to one advantage in men too. So I mean, it was probably a foregone conclusion, but they fought hard and yeah, but he then eventually would lead an uprising that now bears his name In 1794. Uh, that now bears his name in 1794. 1794 fought very diligently. But in that battle, uh, where he was dressed as one of this is where he got his name the peasant prince, it's his nickname.
Speaker 2:He uh, you know, leading his army of literal peasants. They were, he was armed. They were arming peasants who were going to fight this. You know, trained informal russian army, uh, you know, they held their own and he donned a peasant's coat so he wasn't able to be seen on the battlefield. So, like the russians couldn't just target an officer, you know, back in the day if you were on a horse and you had all these medals on and stuff, it's like you were kind of a clear sign that you were an officer and an easy target. So he kind of just kind of kept it a bit more of a low profile, but uh yeah, he did take a, sustained a major injury, two major injuries.
Speaker 2:He took a pike in the back and he got his sciatic nerve severed. So then he ended up falling like face down in the mud and the Russians were looking for this officer who, you know, has just been the bane of their existence for a number of years at this point, and uh, they eventually find him and uh, haul him away to russia on, uh, on kath and the greats orders. And uh, yeah, then he's taken to russia, and along with what.
Speaker 1:So they found other polls yeah, and they at this point. You know, just in the grand scheme of history, poland failed to exist after this. This was the end of poland after this uprising. This was the final end of poland as a country for 123 years. Yep, so that was the impact that that played.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, so his country is gone his home country effectively just off the map.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so he was bombed, that he fought so hard for he was bombed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so then he would spend the next two years in a Russian prison, and one of the key things that happened was I mean he probably would have, he might have just rotted there for the rest of his life had Catherine the Great kept living.
Speaker 1:But she died and her son, paul I who hated his mother. He hated her, he was like Mommy, uh-huh, I don't know what I was gonna say. I was gonna say something like you know.
Speaker 2:mom doesn't understand never let me do my thing. I want to run a empire.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I kind of get that feeling from him like, um, I want to. You know when's it going to be my turn, mommy?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think that's what it was maybe he knew that by freeing, like to destroy her legacy, by freeing this polish patriot who she hated, like that would really just chap her in the grave, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So what was on condition of his release?
Speaker 1:He was given a lot of rubies, substantial amount of money and he was able to leave Russia.
Speaker 2:He was given the money, a sword and a sweater not a sweater, but that's what I wrote down A bare skin jacket I don't even know A jacket sword and a sweater, not a sweater, but that's what I wrote down. What is your skin? Uh jacket I don't even I don't have a jacket coat, maybe a coat, and he ended up giving it.
Speaker 1:He gave it to his boy, thomas jefferson.
Speaker 2:It was a cool coat it's a cool coat and if you ever go to the jefferson memorial you see the statue of thomas jefferson in that memorial. He's wearing that coat and it's his official presidential portrait. He's also wearing the coat oh really, yeah. So if you ever see a picture, a painting of jeff thomas jefferson rocking like a crazy, like bear skin coat.
Speaker 1:It's the coat that kachushka gave him so freaking cool. Hey, so when the poland failed to exist for these 123 years, like I said, was the 123 years the end of world war one and that's like the 14 points and everything that we were talking. Look at that connection, do you go? Look at that connection? Anyway, just to make a point that kashusko really was conflicted on agreeing to those terms of being released from prison because he didn't want to pledge allegiance to russia. The only reason he did it wasn't for the money, wasn't for the sweet sword, wasn't for the cool bearskin coat, but it was because they were going to release um, like 20 000 ex like, uh prisoners polish yeah, it was that fault in some cases.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like some of these peasants who fought with him.
Speaker 1:That's the only reason like it was like I'll do it, you give me that stuff, I don't care about that stuff. But really the only reason I'm doing it, which I think he tried to make it as clear as possible, was like I don't care about that stuff, which is why he gave the sweater away.
Speaker 2:He's, I don't even want this I mean, he's probably a little like kind of feeling a little down too, because he gave an oath of loyalty. It wasn't just that he was given stuff and you can go.
Speaker 2:He had a given oath of loyalty, and then Paul said well, we'll give you some stuff too to get you on your feet. You've been in prison for two years and just don't go. Don't flee Europe now. Don't go fleeing Europe on us, because we'll have our spies on you. Yeah, but don't come back to Poland. There's no Poland for you.
Speaker 1:So he got, even though Poland didn't exist area, yeah, gone um, and so he left. And where's he going to go? His second?
Speaker 2:home, philadelphia, pennsylvania, birthplace of freedom. Yeah, right, that's right. So he was still on the mend. He was not. I don't think those wounds were really healing very well in a r prison. So, yeah, he managed to flee Europe. He had some Russian spies on his tail, as I briefly mentioned, and so he kind of had to give him the slip. So he had to flee to America via Stockholm and London and he left Britain in June of 1797, and he arrived in Philadelphia on August 18th and he was given a hero's welcome by the town in June of 1797, and he arrived in Philadelphia on August 18th.
Speaker 2:And he was given a hero's welcome by the town, although… Not John Adams and his boys, yeah as some of our fans know, in 1797, the Federalists were in power, john Adams was in power, it was Alien and Sedition Act and a possible war with France were on the table. So he kind of showed up at a bit of a precarious time in this country. But no, he had a hero's welcome and Thomas Jefferson welcomed him basically with open arms and yeah. But the reason why he ended up at this little house on 3rd and Pine is because he had a secretary of his.
Speaker 2:I won't say his name because I'd butcher it, but he'd been with him for a while and a lot of do, a lot of his travels and whatnot. And he basically told his secretary, like, find me the cheapest, you know, find me a dwelling as small, as remote and as cheap as possible. And so what his secretary found was this boarding house on pine street. Uh, that was run by a mrs ann ralph and uh, yeah, he got a little room on the what was it? The second floor, second floor of the house second floor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they actually. The place was so small that this museum, which is tiny to begin with, was actually two houses merged together. They blew through the middle wall so that you could actually have room to walk around, so it was even half the size of what we were going through, but they do have a. They have a little idea of what the museum, what his room, would have looked like. You can't go inside. It's behind glass, similar to the Washington's tent, which is kind of lame, yeah. But you could look in and see there were some cool things in there the, uh, chess board. He was probably pretty good at chess, be my guess.
Speaker 2:Um so he only stayed. He only stayed at this, at this house, boarding house, from august 1797 until March of 1798.
Speaker 1:So what Like seven or eight months.
Speaker 2:Seven, eight months, you know.
Speaker 1:One thing that we did see in that room, john, that we should mention was that hatchet peace pipe that we saw, which I thought was cool. You pointed that out. You're like look at that, that thing's cool.
Speaker 2:That was a gift to him by Chief Little Turtle of the Miami tribe.
Speaker 1:Which.
Speaker 2:A very prominent visitor, along with.
Speaker 1:It was a very familiar thing to see because, as I believe we talked about on our Harper's Ferry trip, that was also shown in the Lewis and Clark In the Lewis Merriweather exhibit at Harper's Ferry as something that they would bring with them to give as a gift to the Native. Americans. So maybe that Peace, and so maybe that might have been. What if that peace pipe was actually from Louis Merriweather and just made its way back to Cusco? It's possible.
Speaker 2:Well, the one from Merriweather.
Speaker 1:Same way that.
Speaker 2:What Wasn't Merriweather?
Speaker 1:giving that in 1803?.
Speaker 2:So Cusco went for the.
Speaker 1:Maybe Meriwether jacked it from Kuchuska and was like, oh possible, maybe, maybe there's like a skirmish that they had. They had a big fight, meriwether and Kuchuska.
Speaker 2:Historical record questions it, but maybe ChachiPT can give us a. What if? Yeah maybe Possibility, but yeah.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I had my timeline off there. Fans, sorry my bad.
Speaker 2:So in this seven months that he was recuperating he had a number of visitors come to see him, one of the most important being was the vice president at the time, thomas Jefferson, and they formed a really close bond during his stay and one that would kind of stay with them the rest of their lives. They'd exchange a lot of letters for the majority of most of their lives after the fact. And, yeah, as I said, a chief little turtle of the Miami Supreme Court, justice, chief justice or Williamiam patterson, and a number of others visited him in his sort stay. So word got out, you know. Did you hear he's back in town? Do you hear he's back in town? The south street baller, or what is it? South street brawlers?
Speaker 1:broad street bully. Yo, let's talk to him. I heard I heard stuff went pretty crazy over in poland. Let's get some stories, get the dirt, let's get the tea yeah dude like he's like in there.
Speaker 2:They showed like dude what happened bro and he's got his bandage on his head and someone's painting him. He's like, oh hey, and there's like a painter painting him, oh yeah but he was like a rock star.
Speaker 2:so he he's like the of the sale, like of like a marquis de lafayette Some of our fans we talked about before like just a big deal foreign fighter kind of thing, who really had a big impact on the fight and on the history of this country. But he was so much more than that. I mean, as lafayette probably had stuff in france during the french revolution, kachushka obviously lived a you know call it a second life in europe, but, um, always one for liberty ultimately which ultimately he had to get back to after seven or eight months in philadelphia certainly did.
Speaker 1:He only spent that much and you know he went back to france. You know how he got back to fr. His boy, tj, hooked him up with a fake passport.
Speaker 2:Classic.
Speaker 1:That is epic dude. That's a cool little tidbit there.
Speaker 2:That's cool. Think about that. The vice president of the country is always like don't worry about it, I got you.
Speaker 1:Well, you know why he did it? Because part of the reason why he had to leave was because of the Alien and Sedition Act. He's like I got to get out of here, I'm going to get in prison, and TJ's like I got you fam, Because TJ was part of the Sedition Act too.
Speaker 2:Well, I need his support.
Speaker 1:The whole purpose of that Alien and Sedition Act was a way for possibly to get Thomas Jefferson arrested for talking trash on John Adams.
Speaker 2:From the Federalist. It was the Federalist's way, let me just say, john Adams, just say the Federalist's way of trying to silence their opposition.
Speaker 1:John Adams is more of a puppet, I feel like at that point.
Speaker 2:So yeah, Hamilton, you could probably say boom trying.
Speaker 1:So they were like I got you dog, I got you dog, I'm going to get you a fake passport. And he's like, oh, I don't know what about. And then Thomas Jefferson's like, don't worry about it, I'm going to break the Constitution in a couple years anyway when I buy Louisiana, so don't worry about it, I'm a lawbreaker. What an awesome team. That would be a cool. They would be like a Batman and Robin situation. I feel like and surprisingly to most people, I feel like Kosciuszko would have been Batman to Thomas Jefferson's Robin.
Speaker 2:For a time. Yeah, I would say so, he had the fight. I mean, Jefferson never fought in the revolution or anything else.
Speaker 1:But he did before he left. He did collect his back pay, I believe, for his service, but I think he only got the principal. I think is what we.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, he wanted to, he was going to take the principal, because that is correct. But so in this relation, the big thing, in this relationship that he would end up in bond he would form with thomas jefferson, it was kind of they had a really close friendship from you know sake of you know, talking about liberty and and in the early days of of the american republic. But a big note was that kachuska was a a big proponent of call it individual liberty, no matter your, you know, race or or or, uh, or other circumstance, nationality. So he couldn't understand, coming from Poland where he had serfdom, which was effectively slavery was existent. He couldn't see how could you come here and fight for the cause of liberty and freedom and still have all these slaves in your society?
Speaker 2:So an agreement that he came to with Thomas Jefferson. He said well, hey, I'll take some of my principal money that Congress owes me, but I want to use interest and I want to set up my whole estate to free the slaves, and not only just any slaves, but I want to buy your slaves, I want to manumit your slaves. So when you die, I want my money to pay for your slaves. I want to man you met. I want to man. You met your slaves, so when you die, I want my money to pay for your slaves. Freedom didn't know, that didn't eventually did not end up happening and his will got really complicated and was yeah because thomas jefferson was like I'm.
Speaker 1:When he got to a certain age he's like I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 2:Sorry, tk got complicated, yeah and like up until the 1850s they they were still looking at can we execute Kachuska as well? And it was like, no, this thing is dated and it's done, so but yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah. So he went back to France, met up with our boy Napoleon. Turns out TK and Napoleon not them boys as much as he thought they could be. Tk and TJ were not them boys as much as he thought they could be. Tk and tj were them boys. Tk and napoleon were not them boys. I don't think he really trusted him well, he got excited that there was.
Speaker 2:So he got word when he was still in philly that he was getting letters saying, hey, like we got these you know some of his polish comrades or whatever hey, we got this new, you got this another upstart, bon Bonaparte, napoleon, who's like taking over Europe, and maybe you know he's taking out all of these, you know monarchies and you know, maybe he can help the Polish fight, maybe he can help us get Poland back. And so he got excited by that. That's when he was like I got to go, I got to go, I got to meet this guy, we got to work together, we got to put our heads together here. And yeah, by the time, by the what, 1798, 99, I don't think Napoleon had called himself emperor just yet, but it was getting pretty close. Cachusco, like a lot of people in America.
Speaker 1:Hey, we all know how easy that is to do, yeah.
Speaker 2:It happens.
Speaker 1:It happens Exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly that is to do. Yeah, it happens. It happens exactly exactly 50 years before our boy, before mr norton. But, um, yeah, I mean, obviously, I mean kachuska, although he was a major proponent of human rights and individual liberty, call it uh, he thought, like many in america, he thought the french revolution, you know, while it started out? Well, in principle obviously in action.
Speaker 2:It didn't end up a little touching, a little out of hand. So the reign of terror, so he thought it was abhorrent. So I think when he saw someone like Napoleon come in, bring some level of stability, or whatever.
Speaker 1:I don't think he saw it any better than what Russia was doing, I would guess.
Speaker 2:I think he came to that conclusion about Napoleon. He was just a tyrant. Yeah, he called him a tyrant and he called him.
Speaker 1:He's doing to these other countries what Russia did to Poland.
Speaker 1:Exactly, I think that's kind of how he felt, yeah. But then after the fall of Napoleon Alexander, I wanted TK to return to the Polish area to make things chill in poland again, like kind of like. He wanted him to be like uh, uh, like a good ally to russia, like in poland, I think, so they could like kind of rule it together or whatever. But you know which he was, I think, excited about at first, but then when he got there and realized how small Poland was going to be like, how little land they were actually going to give as like to recognize this Poland, he called it a joke.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they wanted to kind of Napoleon, kind of wanted to masquerade him around, so like so this was after Napoleon is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:This was, this was alexander the first who wanted him to come back and be boys with russia oh, so I was referring to napoleon and napoleon's foreign secretary, or foreign tolerant.
Speaker 2:I could see them.
Speaker 1:I could see them there's probably. He probably had well not to interrupt, but I think what you're getting to maybe is that Kosciuszko had this representation of being like a very a revolutionary but with a very just, noble cause, and maybe I think if Napoleon like, hey, this guy's on my side, everyone it may be legitimate his like is legitify a word.
Speaker 2:It legitimizes what their actions Legitimize Francis' actions, whatever they may be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, exactly right. So Napoleon's French minister, talleyrand, basically petitioned Kachusko for moral and public endorsement for the French fight against Prussia, who were one of the partitioners of Poland, of poland. And I think, yeah, there was. I think kachuska wised up, like you said, to there being an ulterior motive to france wanting his support. He's like, oh, you just want me because I'm a face and I'm an image and I have all this history and you just want to use me for that. But you're just as big of a joke as these clowns in russia and prussia and austria yeah, it's a whole thing's, it's just a mess.
Speaker 1:He didn't trust any of it At that point, I think he didn't have a home. He didn't see himself getting a home, so he just continued to live the rest of his life in France and Switzerland.
Speaker 2:Yeah, back and forth. So I guess whatever he said did not get his head cut off. I mean, he obviously whatever he said. I think he got enough respect and street cred through all of his years of fighting and what he did around the world that Napoleon just, I guess, left him alone. He just stayed in France.
Speaker 1:Well then, he wound up in Switzerland, which is where he died.
Speaker 2:He did end up in Switzerland.
Speaker 1:He died after falling off a horse and then died of stroke complications. Afterwards, thomas Jefferson wrote a letter I guess you could pretty much sum up what Kosciuszko actually meant to the country and in the words of Thomas Jefferson. When he died, he wrote a letter to Franz Zeltner, who was Kosciuszko's host family while he lived in Switzerland. The opening sentence is Sir I received, but lately, your favor of October 29th. Sir I received, but lately, your favor of October 29th announcing to us the death of General Kuzhchusko. To no country could that event be more afflicting, nor to any individual more than to myself.
Speaker 2:Which I think means he was bombed that his boy died.
Speaker 1:They were, what was he?
Speaker 2:71 when he died. What is that? 1817. 1817 minus 71. There you go. 71. A hero on multiple continents.
Speaker 1:So that was the life of Cuscusco. Did we leave anything out, John?
Speaker 2:No, we do after. So his body was kind of when he died, they kind of cut up his body a little bit to honor him. So his heart is in the royal castle of Warsaw I think to this day there's a picture of it on his Wikipedia page and then the rest of his remains were interned at the Wal-Wal Cathedral in a sarcophagus in Krakow.
Speaker 1:Where's that? So, both in Poland, yeah, so we'll get a little bit more. I want to just get our final thoughts on him at some point. You know just a little summary, but I think that's a pretty good description of his life. We went on pretty long, but I think he deserved it.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:He did a lot. He did a lot for the years. So let's just get back to reality. So that's the story of him and let's just wrap up our trip to the museum. So then, as we were leaving, you know one thing just to get back to like current present day, as you would say, we're leaving the museum, we go through the whole museum, spend a decent amount of time there.
Speaker 1:I want to say we probably spent a little bit over an hour there, right, yeah, I'd say about an hour, easily, maybe two. I mean, we spent a long time there, for how small it is and, uh, you know, we were the last ones there. We're well, yeah, so a couple people walked in the teacher did and other whatever, and as we're leaving, we're the only ones there and get up to the desk and we're just like. We're like let's talk to these guys. You know these, these, the same park rangers, were just still lous in their chair, just chilling, you know, and I think I don't know how we started talking about it, but I guess did we just say like, how, how, when, how did you guys wind up working at this museum? I don't know exactly how we started talking about that and it was great, and they were like yeah, dude, you know, I'm just gonna. They were very professional about it and like kind of nerdy, because they're like well, I don't want to say that because you might be listening they're very professional about. But they were basically like I don't know, man, we just split time with the Independence National Park, which is Independence Hall and all that stuff, over the more popular area for sure, because this place is only open eight hours a week. We just rotate in and out.
Speaker 1:So my initial thought was just like I envision these guys out with their boys partying on a Friday night. It comes to 11 o'clock, if you've ever been out before on a work night or whatever and you're like Alright, guys, I got to go, I got to go home, you're right at that edge of one more beer and you might as well stay out till 2 o'clock in the morning at that point. But you're right at the edge like I got to go. And then your friends are like point, but like you're right at the edge like I gotta go, and then they got. It's like your friends are like come on, man, just one more beer. And then your your thought is, yeah, I, I got kashusko in the morning I'll be, I'll be skate by you. Gotta open it at noon yeah like no big deal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, tomorrow's my easy. I got the easy weekend shift of kashusko museum, which I thought was funny to think about. It's also funny to think about because we did run into On our way there. We ran into a little mini-me dwarf. I have no, a little person, national Park Ranger. We saw him. We saw him. Actually, I believe we saw him when we went to the.
Speaker 2:He's coming from that general area.
Speaker 1:He's coming from the area of the, but I think we saw him at the when we were at the american revolution too, like last, like in the in the spring too, I feel like we had seen him there. But anyway, very short little person, and we just had to laugh and think like wouldn't it be funny if he was at this permanent park yeah, it is.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like oh the smallest park ranger might as well be assigned to the smallest park. Why am I always here? Now, think about it getting assigned. It'd be funny if he just kept getting assigned there. He's like why do you guys keep assigning him to?
Speaker 2:me. You just know so much, you're doing so great.
Speaker 1:If we would have seen him, if we would have opened those doors and he would have been there, it would have been game over. We would have had to leave the museum. I would have been laughing too hard. That would have been so funny.
Speaker 2:And obviously we're not saying Welcome to the smallest national park To any of our listeners out there who may be or know a little person. We're just having good fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:This is the Theo Vaughn disclaimer. We're just having good fun, we're just keeping it.
Speaker 1:That would be hilarious, that would be funny, and I would never Missed opportunity if he asked me that it would have been even better if he admitted it.
Speaker 2:He's like yeah, they keep putting me here, smallest park, rangeranger, smallest national park, you know?
Speaker 1:yeah, like yeah, he knows it. Yeah, if you would embrace it, that would have been, it would have been good. That was funny. Like then we were talking. We're kind of like, hey, you know talking to these people just having a good talk, and you know, we mentioned the podcast. We mentioned the podcast a couple times, so hopefully they're listening. We did have somebody recently download our whole catalog in one day, so I'm hoping it's one of those guys. I don't know where they're from, but hopefully it's one of them and hopefully they're listening to this. But we did say, hey, if you, I'm saying they should have a movie about this guy, they could definitely. They just made a movie about Napoleon, who was a jerk, maybe they should make a positive. I didn't say that, but I thought afterwards, like you know that, like I feel like make a, make it about positive person. And uh, we were thinking like who would play kachusko? I said timothy chalamet. They didn't have an answer. I don't think they've been asked that question by anybody else. And then yeah.
Speaker 2:So we got really excited. We were kind of spitballing well, who could play in a movie, tv series?
Speaker 1:I think the response was and maybe rightfully so, because we're coming up to two hours on our podcast just talking about the guy probably should be like a multi-part TV series instead of a movie. That would be tough to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like a multi-part tv series instead of a movie. That would be tough to do, yeah. But you know the one of the park rangers, she tried to kind of she got us, she got going for a second, she got, uh, really excited. She's like, oh yeah, well, she looked at the other guy. She's like wasn't there a thing, wasn't there a play put on in philadelphia, um, about his life and times, or there, you know, there's a play and isn't it?
Speaker 1:isn't it at independence hall and like she's kind of talking about, like present day? I saw john john's pants got a little tighter when he heard this.
Speaker 2:I could say that much true and then she's like, you know, I think it was in the what was that like the 70s, like was that like in the 1970s?
Speaker 1:and we were like oh, yeah, that's cool, yeah, cool, like was it a bummer.
Speaker 2:Can I watch it? That's cool, yeah, cool. Was it filmed? Did somebody record it? Can I watch it? Or what's going on? Yeah, that was funny.
Speaker 1:So then, as we were talking to these people, this other couple came in while we were there and it was an older gentleman and a younger woman, I believe, right, and they're like oh, you guys are open. And he's kind of like I always like coming over here, it's always fun, whatever Kind of like, kind of talking down to him. I mean I got the impression that he was talking down to him a little bit Because I think he was coming from some Russian museum, from what I gathered. And he's like yeah, we're over here, we like coming over here, get a good laugh about how small this place is. Kind of like that attitude or whatever.
Speaker 1:So they're talking and we go to the other, we're looking a little bit more of the museum before we leave. And then I started realizing this guy started saying like hey, does anyone here know that he was captured by and you know, imprisoned by catherine the great? And I'm like is this guy like coming in here flexing about like russia being the ones who finally captured him or something you know? And I got that impression from him you remember that?
Speaker 2:I do remember that, of like all things you could say about the guy, oh, he didn't. How many people came in here know that what he did at saratoga, like off the off the bat? Yeah, it was really obscure.
Speaker 1:He came in flexing like yeah, oh, you know, he got in prison. It's like, wow, that's me and john.
Speaker 2:It was weird because john can't hear battlefield.
Speaker 1:John can't john can't hear that. Well, and I've noticed, and I he didn't really he was like it was funny because as he was saying this and I was hearing this, john says do you think any russians ever come in here and start like talking? Smack on him like he's asking me that, and I'm like whispering, like like the guy who's here right now doing it, and he's like what I'm saying? Like what real loud? I'm like, dude, let's get out of here. And then when we leave, I'm like you realize that's what this guy was doing.
Speaker 1:You're like, oh no, I didn't hear he didn't sound russian no, he certainly did it, but you know, maybe he's a spy. It was funny. It was funny, he could have been a napoleon fan.
Speaker 2:He could have been a napoleon fan. Napoleon ended up talking trash on him. Everyone's got their haters.
Speaker 1:So that was it. It was fun. It was pretty eventful. It was pretty eventful. There was some cool stuff in there. Just a final thought I just wanted to leave I don't know, john, if you have any more final thoughts of just the museum in general.
Speaker 1:A couple of the favorite things that I saw was the letter he wrote some letter to. I don't know if he was a postman or I don't know who he was. He was a postmaster general or something and it was a letter that he hand wrote and he was basically just talking about how he was jealous of these dudes hanging out with chicks and getting married and stuff. That's what I understood. You could barely read it.
Speaker 1:There was no actual printed text of what he was written, but I spent a good 5-10 minutes trying to decipher this from his writing because it's in. You can tell it was written in broken English to begin with, but also in this fancy cursive. So I was trying to get there and he was talking about like, oh, he's getting married, good for him. He was always hanging out with chicks. I was always jealous. I don't know this guy just seems like. He seems like a normal guy who was heartbroken, bounced out of his country and that kind of came through in that letter. I felt like it was just weird During the American Revolution. He's talking about him getting married and how he's happy for him. Maybe that's just what he wanted. He never got married, right? I don't think so. Yeah, he was always in love with that. He was always in love with that woman that he could never have.
Speaker 2:I think if that's not relatable point, but we don't get it.
Speaker 1:I think after yeah, she helped him, but, and at that point, like he, just seemed like a really genuine nice guy with that like thinking of that or whatever, and I. There was one other thing that I really liked, and not to be funny, it's not funny, funny, I'm not making fun of him, and I saw it. We talked about the Zeltners, his host family in Switzerland, and how Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter. I guess that's who ultimately notified Thomas Jefferson Maybe he was the word that was sent over that he had died and at one point, when he was living with them, he wrote a letter to the teenage son, conrad the teen, the teenage son of the zeldner family and he it was kind of like a letter, just like of advice to live by and stuff and I don't know, john, if you don't mind, I'd like to read the stuff that he said.
Speaker 1:And they had like a nice flip book of like all this stuff in there okay, go for it you want me to read it?
Speaker 1:sure it was just like a list of some things to live by. Be always frank and loyal and always speak the truth. Shun selfishness and egotism. Before speaking something or answering, reflect well and reason. Never fail to make obvious your gratitude, in all circumstances, to a person who takes charge of your happiness. If a secret is entrusted to you, keep it religiously. In all your actions you must be upright, sincere and open. No dissimilation in any of your talk. Never argue but seek truth serenely and modestly, john. Be polite and considerate to everyone, agreeable and obliging in society, always humane and succor the poor according to your means. Read instructive books to embellish your mind and better your heart. There you go, john. Never degrade yourself by making bad acquaintances, but be always with persons full of morals and of good reputation. At last, your conduct must be such that everyone approves of it. That's some good advice to live by. I felt like that was nice of him to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of just good moral principles, just salt of the earth, humble.
Speaker 1:He seems like a. Just to summarize what this guy's life was like is like he grew up middle class like someone else we know like someone else we know grew up middle class going to school.
Speaker 1:Family couldn't afford to drop out. Finally made his way into military school. Graduated from that, still couldn't, still couldn't afford to join the actual army when his country was going to war. Ended up being a tutor. Fell in love with a girl. Can't marry her. What do you do? Join the army. The American army. Comes to America, helps out. He's the engineer. Everyone's poo-pooing him saying you don't know what you're doing, keeps at it, works his way up to be a respected guy. Finally leaves, gets to his home country, fights first country, loses comes back to, gets arrested, released, comes back to Philadelphia. Then gets basically booted out of America, which he helped, freaking, get their independence and he was a citizen and he became by the alien and sedition acts. He got basically forced back out of there. Goes back to poland or goes back to europe. Poland doesn't exist anymore, just a heartbroken guy, but still lived his life.
Speaker 2:he still has, yeah, but he still has one more candle. He thinks oh, maybe there's one more last shot with Napoleon, maybe there's one more hope. Yeah, no, just not.
Speaker 1:Never got married even though he seemed like a nice guy, very relatable Soul of the Earth type guy and from what I understand a lot of people said he wasn't very proper. He was considered Again. Even when he would go to places really seems like a guy who would wear a baseball hat to his friend's wedding.
Speaker 2:Along with his Society of Cincinnati. Badge Right.
Speaker 1:I think he would never know if he was wealthy. I feel like he was a very modest person and that was just cool. I don't think he ever really I get the opinion that he did all this stuff in the background with Saratoga and all this stuff, but never really looked for praise or admiration, and that's probably why he never made his way into the history books in America. I think if this guy was an American he would definitely be way more famous than he is.
Speaker 2:If he was American, yeah, and had an American sounding name, I think so, yeah, like I think, for I feel like certain people especially call it, maybe on the left, I don't know, it's getting a political distinction, but all the things he stood for, I think they seem pretty genuine. I don things he stood for. I think they seem pretty genuine. I don't think he had an again. That's again an ulterior motive to this thing.
Speaker 1:I think he just genuinely no, he never got anything for any of what he did.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, he never got anything surfs and fought with other peasants and like never, but he never, probably never got.
Speaker 1:He never got paid by america for doing that. He never got his country back. He never, never, really. You know, he never was really able to enjoy the fruits of his labor, as one could say to some end. I don't know how the end of his life was, but at the end of his life.
Speaker 2:Maybe that's a good quick segue. What was?
Speaker 1:your favorite part of the museum.
Speaker 2:I liked the the short. There was a video on his life. I thought that was interesting.
Speaker 1:You liked that that wasn't about his life. I actually have that listed as being super lame.
Speaker 2:Well, we're different.
Speaker 1:It was four minutes and you even said so. It was four minutes long and it was only about the American Revolution.
Speaker 2:I thought, Okay.
Speaker 1:That was the worst part of the museum.
Speaker 2:honestly Didn't need to be there Of what I guess. Maybe I like the room more than the painting. There was full-size, like you know, three or six feet high by six feet by four feet wide. Paintings of him, of all of like his well known portraits, not the one with him on his head, his bandaged head, those are cool.
Speaker 2:There's a full-size, life-size busk of his head, like a statue of his head. Um, I thought, yeah, seeing the room was cool. You know, it was just kind of like a room, um. But no, I thought, yeah, some of his other personal effects. I thought I thought the stamps were cool not his personal effects, but other things that the stamps were cool.
Speaker 2:There was one that commemorated the 150th anniversary of him becoming an american citizen, from 1933. That was neat. There was a, uh, what was a wine decanter? No, what was it whiskey decanter? No, what was it Whiskey decanter? A whiskey decanter? Of him on a horse, like all colored, all painted and stuff, that was neat. Yeah, his face was on a bunch of current money, and Polish money primarily yeah.
Speaker 2:But I think also just talking to people that know about him too, that was cool, I think, talking to the park rangers, both in saratoga and at the museum, like they knew about him and I'm not the only one. I had a really fun time. I'm really glad we got down there. Uh, it was, yeah, it was on my bucket list for a while, ever since I read the book on him. But, um, yeah, although maybe he he was, he never found love, you know, he never found. He never got his homeland back, I mean, certainly after the fact he was commemorated and uh, you know all over the world. And I mean, yeah, it's one of those things, if you ever go to like a polish american hall, you know one of these like places you can go out and eat and stuff or some cultural history. His picture is probably all over the place, him and Casimir Pulaski, another Polish founding father, american founding father they love the guy.
Speaker 1:It was a good day. The rest of the day we had some time. Somebody didn't check the train schedule to know exactly what time the trains left, so we had some time to kill before we got. We caught a train. So like hey, what do we want to do? And um, I thought like hey, why don't we go see ben franklin's grave? Figured we were close by, it was something quick, thought it'd be fun to do. So it's a couple blocks walk, but like kind of in the same direction that we were going to Ben Franklin grave, we show up there and it turns out it's $5 to get in, which is crazy, but I made John walk all the way there, so I paid for us to get in there.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:And there is nothing special really with that except Ben Franklin's grave, just sitting there. And then I realized that there was a bunch of people standing outside taking pictures next to the great outside for free, because the gate, the, the gate right next to ben franklin's like grave is like open, it's like a, it's like a, you know, you can see inside. So people were just like posing with pictures and throwing pennies on it, which I guess maybe is a thing I don't know. I didn't do that because we just paid five dollars to get in and I'm thinking to myself you guys are cheap, come in and take a look at it. So that kind of ticked me off a little bit. We walked around.
Speaker 1:It was a normal graveyard for the Christ Church, I think is what it's called in Philadelphia, which is still a church. I actually worked in there at one point and saw the bell tower, which it was really cool being in there. But the cemetery is not at the church and you walk around and there's really no information for you. You pay $5 for basically nothing. You walk through. There's just a bunch of old gravestones. There were two gravestones that the people had died in the 2000s. That was weird. I don't know how much it cost for you to do that, which led me to think like hey, do you think if we were related to them you'd still have to pay to get in to see them? Or could you get in for free?
Speaker 2:I'm sure you get like a pass or a badge maybe flash and say hey, I got my relatives like recently deceased relatives barrier somehow and they'd be like even if they weren't recently deceased, you should be able to go there for free. It'd be ridiculous yeah, I mean if you could prove it that they're there I'm sure family and I'm sure family get passes.
Speaker 1:There were some there were some pretty cool like grave sites and stuff and crips and whatever, and I think I did give you an idea of what I wanted. When I died, one of the people I think one of the people had something pretty cool before I remember correctly.
Speaker 2:I was like, hey, that's what I want for my graveyard I forgot immediately after well, you have to go back I do know I will say one more psa to our fans out there again, common courtesy will get you a long way in this world. As matt and I were kind of making our way out, we did come past. We did walk by the gravestone of another founding father, dr benjamin rush, you know, early doctor during the american revolution in the in the early, in the early period. I'm about to take a picture and as I do that, believe it or not, a whole tour group comes into the cemetery and they're being led by a tour guide.
Speaker 1:They probably don't have to pay $5.
Speaker 2:I don't know how much they paid to get in there. I'm literally standing in front of Mr Rush's gravestone and the leader of the tour, the tour guide, doesn't say anything. He can kind of clearly tell I'm trying to take a picture, I'm here, but obviously that's a big thing in this cemetery. That was the next stop in his tour in this cemetery, so it's like he's got 10 people in tow but I'm already in front of it. I got my picture and he just kind of moves right in and stands right next to it and doesn't acknowledge that Matt and I are already there, like we're trying to enjoy our couple seconds with the man in his defense and this guy I agree, and so we got pushed out of there and then we had to like kind of make our way through the crowd.
Speaker 1:In their defense we were walking counterclockwise around the cemetery, so then they were walking clockwise, which I think is probably more the general rule of thumb, so we were kind of going against traffic there. So I mean I get.
Speaker 2:I'm with you. But it's a great. It's a cemetery, no one, not a lot of traffic, a lot of movement. You could have waited. There's more there's more.
Speaker 1:There's more traffic outside of it for the free shots of the picture than inside of it. Those just for the sake of like there's more there's more.
Speaker 2:There's more traffic outside of it for the free shots of the picture than inside of it. Those just for the sake of like. There's other weirdos that would pay five dollars to come in here. Okay, I'll let them.
Speaker 1:Maybe they'll get their money's worth if they take this, and I, when I said that, john, is the reason that it's five dollars is to keep the riffraff out of there, I think is including us yes, probably should have raised the price a little more to keep us out. And they were charging a dollar for water on top of everything. So they get and they had no information Like you pay this $5 and you get nothing for it.
Speaker 2:No map.
Speaker 1:No brochure, nothing it's like. Okay, thank you.
Speaker 2:Points of interest, who were like the five founding fathers? I should stop by.
Speaker 1:Although it does, the money goes to the church, so whatever, it's fine.
Speaker 2:Maintaining the cemetery and all that stuff, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a nice cemetery. It's small but it's nice. I wouldn't mind getting buried there. Hint, hint.
Speaker 2:I'll work my magic. I'll see what I can do for you.
Speaker 1:So that's pretty much it. So then we walk, then we tried to go to the freaking Thomas Jefferson house where he we talked about it, I believe, when we went to the american revolution, where it was the thomas the house that thomas jefferson um wrote the declaration of independence, but it was actually just a rebuilt house, so it's not really authentic like the kosciuszko museum is authentic. But we went, went there. John looked up on his phone that it was open from 5 a until midnight or something. Some crazy hours right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, on Mondays. It's just a mistype in Google.
Speaker 1:So we're trying to kill the time and we get there and it's closed and I never even looked to see what the actual hours were, but so we wound up in there. Then we're in the Independence National Park System area. We're just minding minor own business, walking through we see all the chuchas waiting in line to go see the stupid liberty bell. I mean, the line was crazy long and it was raining out.
Speaker 1:They were waiting in line and there's like some construction or whatever, not to get too detailed so we make our way around. Then we start walking. There's these two guys standing uh against the wall in front of the building that the liberty bell's in, and they're like, hey, excuse me, you're like. We're like yeah. He's like where's, uh, where's the liberty bell? I'm like, um, look, yeah. When they say that, I'm like it's right there. We were, as they asked that question. We were looking, yeah, at the liberty because there's glass like there's.
Speaker 2:There's a glass panel that you can see into it. It's kind of fog, it's kind of dirty and fog, but you could still clearly see there's a Liberty Bell behind that and he's looking at us. He's facing Independence Hall, we're looking at the Liberty Bell.
Speaker 1:They were standing right in front.
Speaker 2:That was great. And then I'm like, yeah, it's there.
Speaker 1:Matt's like hey, you probably want to get in line. It's a long line. And Because why I say that there was construction, there was a long line. I'm like, if you want I think I said it's right there, but I guess if you want to go in to look at it, you have to wait in line. And to do that you got to go around here and whatever, get to the other side of this construction fence. And the guy looked at me like he's like what it's that way.
Speaker 2:He's like where? Because if someone says it's right there and they point a finger, my first instinct is to crack my head 180 degrees.
Speaker 1:I would have made something like I'm such a goofball.
Speaker 2:There. It is Pretty hard to miss that.
Speaker 1:Nothing there. It's like okay, just like, but that's tourists, I don't know. I think we get you forget that we have some type of Philadelphia accent to these people who aren't from there, so maybe as we talk it comes across as like really like it's right over there, you idiot.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you know, and he just sees it in the movies.
Speaker 1:He's like these Philadelphians they talk this way and they're never super on point I mean similar, like when we're in the adirondacks and you thought I was yelling at that guy looking for the code for the bathroom. Maybe that's how he felt with me.
Speaker 2:So it's a story for another day, fans so then yeah, we eventually got back to jefferson station.
Speaker 1:Should be renamed kachuska, jefferson, kachuska station maybe there you go and then, um, yeah, we got on the train and then there were some, just some the thing. Just to get back to the trains, the train station, what I've been trying to say to john is like this is like the higher one for one. I realize there's the other thing on top of it being a longer train ride. What I learned as we were buying tickets is it's also in a different zone, so it's actually even more expensive to ride the train. So not only does it take longer, not only do you have to walk 15 minutes to get to the train station, and not only is it a longer train ride, but it also costs more.
Speaker 2:It's a trifecta.
Speaker 1:The thing that I don't like about it is you're going through the main line and so you get all these snooty people there. To get to the point of it's more expensive, it's a longer train ride. You're dealing with a bunch of rich, snobby chooches. Just take the train from Norristown. More down to earth, Cachusco 100% Cachusco would 100% not take the Paoli line and if you want to live the way that he did, talking to Connor Zeltner, whatever take the Norristown line when you're going into the city. That's all I got to say. Good advice, Final. I really kind of want to get. I guess we kind of talked too long and I don't want to. Maybe the next episode we can get into this. We got some fan mail, some response to our my solo episode. We got some input, but I don't want to do them the disservice of talking about it at the end of a long podcast.
Speaker 2:So maybe the next episode will open.
Speaker 1:I really hope that my nephew freaking tells his teacher well, why are we listening about the freaking ice? Why are we learning about the ice age? Let's learn about this guy, cachusco.
Speaker 2:Or even if they're talking a bit to the American Revolution and they want to talk about I don't know who's a bozo they always talk about. They were just like, that guy wasn't that important, he was good for a while until he wasn't. He sold Cachusco's secrets. He's the one I mean. He sold the secrets to West Point, sold the plans to West Point to the British.
Speaker 1:Well, he was in charge of West Point.
Speaker 2:Basically sold Cachusco up the river, literally.
Speaker 1:All right, fans. Well, I think that's all that we have for you. I hope you enjoyed the talk of the finally we got to the museum and I hope maybe you learned a little bit about the man who I still will say final thoughts. I think I said this to John I don't think he would be in the framework of what we said of founding fathers and how everything else was going on. I don't think. I think he had a huge, played a huge role in the United States gaining independence, which is an admirable thing, and he was a pretty cool guy. But as far as a high rank of a founding father, he kind of left when the country started getting formed. So I don't see it. Yeah, I can agree to that. We'll see on the next one. Um, you know, as always, shoot us a text. Let us know your thoughts on kushusko.
Speaker 2:Um, get in there before you got a couple more weeks before they close for the season you'll be getting this this week, so you'll probably have about 10 days or so oh, I guess two days within that 10 days to get there check it out make a whole day of it send us a text.
Speaker 1:Hit us up on twitter at nailing history or send us an email at nailing history pod at gmailcom. Got anything else to add, john? I just want to say, guys, I'm really excited to have been back Nailing History. Or send us an email at nailinghistorypod at gmailcom. Got anything else to add?
Speaker 2:John. I just want to say guys, I'm really excited to have been back after being on hiatus. Matt, I want to thank you again for steering the ship solo last week. I'm really excited to be back on it and looking forward to doing more episodes and growing the base.
Speaker 1:All right, got anything else to leave them with. Stay curious and we say bye-bye.