Nailing History
Introducing "Nailing History," the podcast where two friends attempt to nail down historical facts like they're trying to assemble IKEA furniture without the manual. Join Matt and Jon (or Jon and Matt) as they stumble through the annals of time, armed with Wikipedia, Chat GPT, and a sense of reckless abandon.
In each episode, Matt and Jon pick a historical event that tickles their curiosity (and occasionally their funny bone) and dissect it like a frog in biology class—except they're the frogs, and they have no idea what they're doing. From ancient civilizations to modern mishaps, they cover it all with the finesse of a bull in a china shop.
But wait, there's more! In between butchering historical names and dates, Matt and Jon take a break to explore the intersection of history and pop culture. Ever wondered if Cleopatra would have been a TikTok sensation? Yeah, neither have they, but that won't stop them from imagining it in excruciating detail.
So grab your popcorn and prepare to laugh, cringe, and possibly learn something (though don't hold your breath). With Matt and Jon leading the charge, "Nailing History" is the only podcast where you're guaranteed to leave scratching your head and questioning everything you thought you knew about the past. After all, who needs a PhD when you've got two clueless buddies and a microphone?
Nailing History
129 Unraveling Pardons Past and Present
What happens when global politics, family ties, and the complex world of presidential pardons collide? Join us as we unpack the shocking overthrow of the Assad regime in Syria and the assassination of the UnitedHealthcare CEO, events that have left the world buzzing with mixed reactions. Our journey isn't just about serious headlines—we also share our amusing adventure of getting verified on X (formerly Twitter) and losing a horde of bot followers along the way. The episode takes a twist into the volatile world of cryptocurrency, spotlighting the intriguing tale of internet personality Haley Welch and her meme coin escapades.
The controversy surrounding President Joe Biden's pardon of his son, Hunter Biden, takes center stage as we explore the legal, ethical, and political ramifications of such a decision. This move, covering federal crimes from 2014 to the present, including gun-related offenses and tax evasion, challenges the moral high ground of the Democrats, especially with impending elections. Throughout the discussion, we reflect on historical presidential pardons, offering a lens through which to view the complexities and familial pressures involved in such powerful acts of clemency.
Travel through history as we examine the origins and evolution of the presidential pardon, from the Whiskey Rebellion to Jimmy Carter's pardon of Vietnam War draft dodgers. We debate the most controversial pardons in U.S. history, questioning the motivations behind clemency for figures like Jimmy Hoffa and Patty Hearst. Ending on a lighter note, we recount Joe Exotic's failed pardon attempt, highlighting the bizarre yet captivating narratives that make presidential pardons a perpetual topic of fascination and debate.
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Nailing History. I'm your host, John, here with my co-host, Matt Matt, how are you today?
Speaker 2:I'm good Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:We're stoked. Thank you so much. How's your week? How's it been? How are you hanging in there? Good, that's good. That's good to hear. Yeah, it's good. That's good to hear. Yeah, it's good. Uh, it's. It's been on a minute since we were here, but, uh, I feel like we got a good thing going. I think the news cycle's really giving us some some good fire to work with and, uh, I think we're really got a good one for you guys this week.
Speaker 2:Any certain current events tickle your fancy at all over the last week.
Speaker 1:Let's see Nationally what else has even really happened. I guess Syria is a big problem again. I was seeing that in the headlines. I thought that was like so 2016, and I guess now it's the 2024 and like, I guess the assad regime has been overthrown blasted. Yeah, it seemed like it all happened very quickly. I just read headlines, I read nothing about it. That sounds pretty dicey.
Speaker 2:The CEO from the UnitedHealthcare got assassinated.
Speaker 1:That's probably a big one a little closer to home. People are really up in arms about that one.
Speaker 2:It seems like more people are like oh good for them for killing him.
Speaker 1:I read a few YouTube comments on a video going over it, and that was mostly what the comments were.
Speaker 2:That's pretty annoying. That annoys me.
Speaker 1:About how people are. Like you can get shot. It serves you right for denying coverage or whatever they were saying. Like he was doing it yeah sure, yep, I mean, they're in the business of making money. It's just, it's what it is.
Speaker 2:Some of our fans may have noticed a little extra addition to our ex profile A little colorful checkmark next to our name. Did you notice that, John?
Speaker 1:I did not. Oh, did we get a little blue check, we're verified.
Speaker 2:We are verified, we're verified and in that process, unfortunately, we had to go through I don't understand it completely. We had to go through a multi-day vetting process on the web. I signed up for it. I got duped into it because X was running a Black Friday special 40% off of a yearly subscription. So I'm not not, it's not super expensive, but I don't really know exactly what I paid. But I got duped into it somewhat. I'm like, okay, I'll do it, so hoping we'd get, maybe get some more. You know legitimacy and when we comment on other videos, you know people are like, oh, they have a blue check mark. Maybe they know what they're talking about.
Speaker 2:But we ended up as mean kind of a little bit about a little, yeah, a little little, that little you. You get a little bit more access to certain things. You can tweet longer posts, so you're not. So you're not as held to the whatever, however many characters it was we don't really post anymore.
Speaker 1:You X posts. I think Elon Musk is really particular about knowing people are still calling it Twitter, but through this vetting period we ended up losing about $140. I'm shocked we had that many.
Speaker 2:Well, we didn't really. Yeah, I guess what during the process in order to be verified, they want to make sure that you didn't like I'm I'm projecting here. I didn't look into it because I don't necessarily care, but I assume like part of the verification process for certain accounts, they want to make sure that you didn't just pay for 50,000 bots so that when people look at your profile, you definitely seem more legit if somebody says, oh, this guy's got 50,000 followers. So I think by trying to get the blue checkmark, twitter went through our I don't know how they even did it, but they went through our.
Speaker 2:I don't know how they even did it, but they went through our followers and, yeah, we lost about. We lost pretty much all of them. So we're back, we're down to, we're down to 10 or 11, but they were all bots so they weren't real, but it looked legitimate.
Speaker 1:But we're bearing all now. Now we're being honest with our fans and for now I didn't bring it up with you. When we were last speaking with one another, apparently a certain Hak'tu girl got in some hot water.
Speaker 2:Yeah, another one of our followees, not a follower.
Speaker 1:What happened? She just got wrapped up in the whole crypto, is that?
Speaker 2:So I don't know exactly what happened with her name. Is hayley welch. We'll call her that um of uh meme fame. Um, yeah, I don't know what exactly. I don't really understand the whole crypto game, but it's definitely not something that I'd particularly want to get involved with, as I don't really know. I don't think she is too well versed in it. Um, there's these things. From what I understand, there's these things called a meme coin. So we have, you have some I don't know if there's I guess there's levels of legitimate um cryptocurrency. So you got like bitcoin and ethereum and and like those are. Those are kind of the most, those are the original ones, like there's a couple more on that level, but then you get down to another level where then you have like the doge and other ones that were kind of came.
Speaker 2:I don't know, they came out after the fact and then you get down to another level where it's like just people making, like creating coins of themselves and just trying to like put them into the market. I don't know, I don't understand it and, uh, I don't know if she necessarily did my. So what they're saying is she released this coin on a certain day and as soon as it went up to like a crazy amount, like a crazy high value, everybody who was either part of the people who created the coin or her herself like sold it immediately. They call it pulling the rug, pulled the rug out from under everybody, and then, when they sold that, everybody else lost a ton of their investment.
Speaker 2:I don't know sort of situation yeah, I mean, it's pretty much like it and uh, you know, I don't even know if they could really be held account. I don't like a pump and dump sort of situation. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty much and I don't even know if they could really be held account. I don't know how. The SEC doesn't Probably doesn't. I don't even know if they regulate that. So I don't know how.
Speaker 1:But my personal opinion.
Speaker 2:I was talking to somebody this weekend about it and I was just jokingly saying like hey, did you invest in that? Or hey, what's going on with that? And they were asking about it and I'm like it's probably the same conversation. I'm like I don't understand it. I obviously didn't buy it. I don't even know how to buy that stuff. I do own some crypto that I bought through one of those Like an app, just so that I can try. I don't have a lot, but I was talking to this person and I was saying I actually feel bad for her because I think what and I don't know, I don't know the situation.
Speaker 2:Obviously, I don't know her personally, even though we do follow her on X, but it just seems like this cryptocurrency online community is kind of rough. It seems like and they're all, they're all out to like out each other and all this like nonsense. It's like it's like if wall street was on reddit or something. We're like there's a bunch of bullying and a lot of like nonsense going on, a lot of scheming going on. That's just what I get from it and I just feel like you get somebody like her, who was like famous, like very big in the like pop culture world right now up and coming. She's young, um, I don't know, I was famous, I don't know how. I don't know how smart she I mean she had got shot, dude.
Speaker 2:No, she was famous and trump got shot no, she had the fifth most listened to podcast in the world when, like up until like last week, she has, like she's still like, fairly like prominent and like yeah, obviously you don't keep up with anything, so, yeah, so she was actually like kind of actually doing somewhat of a good job of like stretching this 15 minutes of fame, and then she did this, and I just feel like somebody in the crypto world is like oh, we can make a quick buck off of this girl. We'll have her do this, take advantage of all of her fans, and she'll be the one to take all the heat, and they probably went away with a couple million dollars. She might have made a couple million dollars, not knowing exactly. It could have been completely innocent to her, like I didn't you know, she didn't know, even though she might have made out, but they took advantage, I feel. I just feel like something like that happened.
Speaker 2:I don't know for sure because, like, I don't think why would she at this point? Like I don't know how much money she was making off the podcast or whatever, but she was definitely trending towards being able to make somewhat of a living doing nonsense. She's probably getting 10 000 listeners an episode, I'm sure. So, um, I don't know why you would try to scam people like now if you already were. It just doesn't really add up.
Speaker 1:So I feel a little bad, put her up to it, and she just got taken advantage of by somebody who's like oh yeah, here's a way like you're yeah, and then she hasn't tweeted since now yes, I I do feel for her honestly, but if she got away with a couple million dollars, that's not that bad either, so can't feel too bad for her can't?
Speaker 1:you gotta keep people you can trust around you and just you know, understand how you got to where you got, like you, she said a funny phrase once that was caught on air. You just got to realize, like I'm just taking this thing and running with it, but you know there's going to be some shysters out there trying to get a piece of that, you know. So he's gonna be careful yeah, I mean hey, who are we to say it's true, it's true, but anyway uh, yeah yeah thanks for asking me about my expertise on that.
Speaker 1:I'll say you're welcome, but I guess maybe we should get right into it. Huh sure, the other big story, big scoop yeah, we're really avoiding the obvious at the front, front and center. The biggest news story of the past week I think we can all agree in the US has been the pardoning of a Mr Hunter Biden by his father, president Joseph Robinette Biden, I was blown away. You were blown away. What were your initial thoughts?
Speaker 2:I was not surprised, didn't really bother me that much. It's funny. My dad said something to me on what, so this came out monday or tuesday, was it? Well, actually, you know, was it sunday? Was it over the weekend sunday? Yeah, last sunday I saw my dad on wednesday and he said something to me. He's like what do you think about this? I'm like duh.
Speaker 1:Typical.
Speaker 2:That's all I got to say.
Speaker 1:He lied, he said he wouldn't do it.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think that's the big part. I think that's what a lot of people are upset about both sides. I think that's where the Democrats are really off-put about. It is that he did say that he wasn't going to do it. Well, say that he wasn't going to do it well, and I think that that's why, in politics, I always say you never be 100 in on one thing at all in politics, because if you say one thing and then something changes or something happens and you have to go back and everyone's just going to like come out of the world, be like oh, you didn't say it. Well, you said you weren't going to do it. If he would have just left it at like, I might do it, I don't know.
Speaker 1:But do you think they're upset from a principled standpoint or because now, in light of the new president that's coming into office, they're not going to have a moral high ground to stand on as much of like? They're not going to be able to play the oh, like you know, you're only supposed to be pardoning people for the safety of the democracy or whatever all that narrative, and then Trump can just be like, well, your guy just pardoned his son. I think they're probably more upset about it that they won't be able to have as much of a leg to stand on when they know what's definitely coming down the pipeline. But yeah, that was a really that was a big one and uh, you know much like the tariff pardon for let's go.
Speaker 2:What did he get pardoned for? What are the details?
Speaker 1:so he's got. He got a blanket 10-year pardon. So retroactive retroactive from 2014 up until Sunday of last week. If he committed any federal crime, it was deemed pardoned, so there's a few things lingering lingering about. As some of our fans may know, a few years ago he had a little run in with a laptop and dropping that off at a computer shop in Delaware. Some hot water, who drops their?
Speaker 2:computer off at a computer shop anymore, just get a new one. You know what I mean that's the most ridiculous part about that whole freaking thing is like man, what a job that would be.
Speaker 1:Huh, my computer is so backed up, I gotta take it to this guy in like a strip mall to clean it up. Just divorced my wife. I've got a raging crack addiction.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to take my computer in.
Speaker 1:Well, he didn't then. But I don't know if we know that.
Speaker 2:The most unvetted place. You have to have IT people available to you, at your fingertips, to be able to fix your computer.
Speaker 1:if you're Hunter Biden, he was a lobbyist for a number of years. He had connection, foreign connections and partners. Yeah, I'm shocked that he couldn't just call somebody and be like I need a guy who can like.
Speaker 2:Just I'm honestly wondering if, like his computer was so bad that he couldn't get it turned on. And then he was worried that his uh browser history would have been seen by somebody in the government.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's every man's fear.
Speaker 2:Every 14-year-old boy knows that one, and he didn't want to Because if he would have taken it somewhere where they could have gotten his computer up and running, they would have been able to see his internet history, his browser history. So I'm thinking he's like, let me just take it somewhere else. If they see my browser history, whatever I guess.
Speaker 1:I wonder if the first thing people close to him would have been like well, you're using DuckDuckGo, right? And he's like nah dude, Internet Explorer, what's DuckDuckGo? It supposedly doesn't save any of your history. Oh, it's supposed to be like this safe browser. That's like not incognito mode like you would have on chrome, it's supposed to just be like a. It doesn't save your history. Internet export doesn't exist anymore either. It's edge now, yeah well, I'm very edgy, so so yeah, he had the laptop.
Speaker 2:Isn't specifically what he got pardoned for. So you're just being a conspiracy theorist? No, the laptop was.
Speaker 1:Well, he had foreign connections in Ukraine 10 years ago, in 2014, when his father was still the vice president and kind of responsible for Ukraine matters.
Speaker 1:Some of our fans might remember there was a coup in ukraine, a color revolution in 2014, where the government was, uh, austria, you know, was was taken over and put in with a more western friendly government. Um, but yeah, at the time, hunter had some connections and had made some money from those connections and investments that he had over there. But then from basically 2015 onward, I think it's kind of unfortunately. I mean, it's just sad he don't want to see this happen to anybody, but life kind of took a downward spiral. He got, you know, he developed an addiction to crack and alcohol, entered depression, his brother died, bo biden died um, you know, a lot happened. But uh, yeah, the one thing that got him in hot water happened on october 12th 2018, where he bought a 38 caliber handgun at starquest shooters and survival supply in wilmington, delaware, uh, and he has he asserted on a US government form that he was not using drugs, which no one ever does that, I'm sure of it.
Speaker 1:It's basically been proven.
Speaker 2:I guess it hasn't been proven, but he almost certainly was, and I think this is really what I think the question isn't even I own a firearm or two, and so I filled this form out many times, or two, and um, that is a question. It says, I think the and I don't know. We could probably pull it up, but I think the question is like are you or have you ever used any addictive substances? I think it's something like that. So you could argue I guess hunter could have argued that yeah, I smoked crack, but it's not addicted. He could have, he could have. That might have been his, uh, his, defense that we're unfortunately not going to be able to hear because of this.
Speaker 1:Pardon, yeah, um, oh yeah, but I wasn't. I was cool that day. I wasn't on it the day I filled out the form oh, that's another one that they could have done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but not only, but you're missing there. There was. There was two things that he specific things that he had been charged with that he got pardoned for was the gun application but, also. Yeah, he also like evaded millions and millions of taxes over like the period of like 2015 to 2019 or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah from his foreign dealings in ukraine and china. He was a part owner in a chinese business, didn't declare it um, and apparently, as of just like a few weeks, just back in september of this year he had he had agreed to, he pleaded guilty to nine federal tax charges in LA after telling his legal team that he refused to subject his family to more anguish and humiliation which they've been experiencing for a number of years. And he was kind of just going in the towel.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to get pardoned anyway. So, yeah, I plead guilty. I'm sure that's you don't think he knew he was going to get pardoned. I'm just going to get pardoned anyway. So, yeah, I plead guilty. I'm sure that's you don't think he knew he was going to get pardoned when he pled guilty?
Speaker 1:well, it was before the election. I think if biden, I think if maybe harris won that's a good point he wouldn't feel as like needing to. I don't know what he would have said. I mean, biden said he wasn't going to do it. Trump wins the election. I think everyone knows. I mean trump's not hiding anything about. Yeah, I'm going to get the people I want into the justice department. I want a clean house. I want my people doing the things I want them to do. So I think, yeah, democrats are pretty worried about what he's gonna, what he's gonna pull up, pull from his sleeve, and uh, yeah, I guess they just want this you know all this hunter stuff to kind of go to bed before biden leaves the white house. But uh, yeah, see biden, what the president was on record as saying he would not pardon his son I don't have the exact date in front of me on when he said he, when he said that.
Speaker 2:But uh, yeah, like we said a little earlier, that's kind of really what's getting people upset about this whole thing according to the, the part in the letter that Joe Biden wrote, he said that the reason that he didn't pay the taxes is because he was addicted to crack, and he forgot.
Speaker 1:Again. Also, someone of his influence was shocked. He doesn't have an accountant on retainer. Hey or his father wouldn't insist that he would should have an accountant. But you know, we all know the state of the president currently sometimes, sometimes, you just have to live and let live yeah.
Speaker 1:So you know, we kind of wanted to look in a little more the history of pardons and just kind of get down to how did it come to this? How did it come to a sitting president pardoning their son for tax evasion and gun charges and other craziness? How did we get here? We could probably both agree and I think the facts that we're going to get into would back it up that the Founding Fathers, when they included this power in the Constitution, did not think it would be used for this. It's probably not something they had in mind, weren't the ones who won out and and they saw maybe something writing on the wall it could be used, you know for, for one's own benefit. But um, yeah, we'll get to that. So, matt any idea where pardon started from, how it ended up in the constitution in the first place?
Speaker 2:no, no idea, no idea john well I'll tell you.
Speaker 1:So it actually. It actually harkens back to the british, believe it or not. Yeah, why me, we? We, we gained our independence from them, but we couldn't, you, but we didn't sever our political past to them entirely. So pardon power has a British origin, english origin really, and it goes back to what's called the Royal Prerogative of Mercy, which was basically it allowed for kings and monarchs to issue acts of clemency, and the first dated one was by King Ene of Wessex in the 7th century AD.
Speaker 1:And as the centuries moved on, in England and other European countries as well, you started developing this idea of the divine right of kings, whereas you know, effectively, kings and monarchs were the representatives of god on earth. So you know, they can kind of say and do what they, what they pleased, and so they maintained a royal prerogative to pardon convicted persons, and usually what they would do with that power is they would either withdraw or give alternative withdrawal or give alternatives to death sentences to those convicted, some alternatives, a main one being penal transportation, at least in the 18th century into the 19th century, and then, as you kind of went on into the 1600s, 1700s, the kings started using these pardons more for political reasons, including the pardoning of pirates, and so that's kind of where the pardoning history started. So our founding fathers didn't just kind of pull it out of a hat saying, well, the executive government or president should have an ability to pardon whoever they want, for whatever reason. Uh, just because that's a power they should have, they thought it actually would have served a a valid purpose and uh, yeah, that's kind of. That's kind of how we ended up with it even becoming a thing discussed when the constitution was being ratified. It's locked in in article 2 section, section 2, clause 1 of the US Constitution, which states the president shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.
Speaker 1:And the argument at the time was well, why would you give the president this power? Why doesn't Congress have this power? I mean, they're closer to the people, they are more reflective of the population. The argument was that it was meant to be by keeping it in the executive branch. It could be a check on the judicial branch, basically the justice and the law basically, and judges who may also abuse their powers. So if they mistry somebody, there's laws on the books. Let's say, someone's then brought and hauled into court. A judge passes an unfavorable ruling or one that could be deemed a tyrannical ruling, the president could have the ability to pardon that person if it's deemed in the benefit of the country as a whole.
Speaker 1:So one of the biggest proponents of including the pardon power in the Constitution was none other than my king of spades, if I recall Alexander Hamilton. He wrote in the Federalist Papers number 74,. He said that the president, it can be used as a way of ensuring peace following an insurrection or rebellion. So it was meant to be well-tim, know, very particular. So they had a, they had a very I kind of. It was meant to be used specifically for acts deemed injurious to the United States but after the fact can be seen as to the benefit of the U? S and the other way to kind of move forward and build peace and build that tranquility.
Speaker 1:I think another argument Hamilton had made was that by keeping in the executive it could be more expedient. When you do keep things in Congress they can maybe slow things down a little bit for good or bad. But yeah, I know there were those that definitely fought against it. You had our good old anti-federalists and one of the big heavy hitters in that group, george Mason said at the Virginia Ratifying Convention. He argued that the president ought not to have the power of pardoning because he may frequently pardon crimes which were advised by himself, which were advised by himself. So he saw it from a very early stage as it could be used as a political tool, as a political weapon for presidents to basically engage in criminal activity and using a pardon as a cover for that activity.
Speaker 1:Basically, encouraging corruption and tyranny correct, it's tyranny dude, it's tyranny big time.
Speaker 2:So and I just I think he saw the writing on the wall back in the day yeah, I think one thing that I came across, um, as far as how this pardon, how the how the power of the pardon has been strengthened over the years, something happened in, I think it was a Supreme Court case in 1886. It's called Ex Parte Garland, I guess is how it's said. But basically what happened was in 1865, after the Civil War, the US Congress passed a law basically trying to keep anybody who was involved in the Confederacy out of Congress and out of government by forcing them to pledge an oath that said that they had never served in the Confederate government.
Speaker 2:But, as we'll get to, all of the Confederacy in general was pardoned after the Civil War. So this guy, augustus Hill Garland, who was a former senator from Arkansas in the Confederate States, he said, hey, the Congress isn't letting me join because of a crime that I've been pardoned for. I shouldn't have to face that because I've been pardoned by the president. So he brought that to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court actually ruled in favor of this guy Garland, saying that the president's authority to pardon is unlimited and extending to every offense known to the law and able to be exercised either before legal proceedings are taken or during their pendency, or after conviction and judgment, which made a point to say it can't be done before a crime is committed. Now, at that same end, what John was getting to is there are ways that the government can check these pardons. Congress has the ability with impeachment or other constitutional tools that are able to, you know, check his pardon. So if he pardoned somebody he could be impeached for that pardon.
Speaker 2:I don't think that's out of the question, which I think is the check there. I don't know if it would ever happen. It'd have to be something really crazy, because it hasn't happened yet and we're going to be getting into some pretty crazy pardons here.
Speaker 1:Self-pardoning too. We haven't seen that yet either. Self-pardon, which is the discussion too.
Speaker 2:And the other thing I wanted to bring up it's only federal crime, so state criminal offenses or federal or state civil claims cannot be covered in the pardon.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So what John and I wanted to do? We just wanted to go through you know we're no experts on law Right kind of categorize them as what we would consider a good pardon, or one that we feel follows the original intent of the Constitution, and then a couple that might be considered bad pardons or that we feel maybe an abuse of power not really achieving the goal. That was the reason for giving that president the power.
Speaker 1:And if the president is acting in a moral way and character as per his oath to defend and uphold the Constitution. So the very first pardon ever was done by President George Washington for the Whiskey Rebellion. George Washington for the Whiskey Rebellion, and it was pretty controversial, in large part because it was the first one. You know you're breaking the mold.
Speaker 2:But I would say it's almost. It didn't take too long to get a pardon and it's pretty wild. I think they'd be like when they wrote the Constitution, like, yeah, we'll put that in there, it's never going to happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll never use it. But little did they know. But yeah, so in 17. In 1794, we had the Whiskey Rebellion, which was a rebellion of. Western Pennsylvania would make whiskey with the corn and the grain that they had in excess from their year's harvest and they would sell the whiskey to try to get a little extra cash in the pocket for the cold months. They're really upset about that because it would only apply to whiskey. It did not apply to beer. So New England, for the most part, was left out and this really chapped them. So they started burning down tax offices and hanging Alexander Hamilton and effigy Cause he was the treasurer at the time. To this day I love a good effigy story, I really do.
Speaker 1:To this day his picture is hanging is hanging upside down in a bar and outside of Pittsburgh the bar is like super old Still to this day. They kind of have that homage to him and yeah, under. So on Washington's behalf of Virginia.
Speaker 2:Governor Henry.
Speaker 1:Lee, did you say homage Huh?
Speaker 2:Homage to him. Yeah, it's a joke. No, but that's not how you pronounce that word. Is it homage to him?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a joke.
Speaker 2:No, but that's not how you pronounce that word, is it? It's an homage.
Speaker 1:H-O-M-A-G-E.
Speaker 2:It's homage. Would, you say Homage.
Speaker 1:It's silent H. I didn't know that, anyway, yeah, so these guys Richmond're just cool business. Ladies and gentlemen, 20, 20 year in existence. Yeah, so washington. He called in troops to quell the opposition. It was getting crazy. People were getting tarred and feathered. Tax agents were getting tarred and feathered. So these tax guys. If you were an early tax collector working for the pre-IRS back in 1790s- you did not want to be in Western CIA.
Speaker 2:Such a geek dude, what a narc. Well, guys, I need your taxes.
Speaker 1:Got this new republic. You see here, uh got. My boss, alexander hamilton sent me out here to get the money from you. Hey, you're making that whiskey there boys. Oh, let me get some of that. I gotta get your money. And just imagine showing up on these farmers. Dude, just living the hard life western pa.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like working in the field, working on the field like 15 hours a day, and then you come in with your suit on. You're like we're trying to build some nice new.
Speaker 1:We're trying to build a new capital in washington dc. It's a swamp now, but it's gonna be great. You're gonna love it.
Speaker 2:You're gonna love it I feel like, why are you building on a swamp?
Speaker 1:ah, it's a good point see well, because my boss again, alexander hamilton. He made a deal with the south saying that if we move the capital from new york city, uh, somewhere more south, uh, they'll assume our debt, the state debts. And uh, that's when I got a job, see, because, uh, we needed to collect all this money for, to pay for those debts that the states incurred during this rebellion. So revolution. So here I am Give me your money.
Speaker 2:Money please. Yeah, those farmers are probably like wow, this guy is something else.
Speaker 1:Oh, and, by the way, new Englanders don't have to pay the tax because they make beer and I can't really tax that that much. So it didn't go over well and uh yeah. So basically people were you know, we think we've talked about a previous sin governor of pennsylvania was like well, we don't need the federal troops to come in, I'll take care of it. Like, don't have to send in the militia, don't worry about it. Washington did send in 13,000 troops to quell the opposition. And then a lot of these whiskey rebel leaders were charged with treason, although many of them were released due to lack of evidence. But those that were still being charged, they had to be pardoned. And although the very person who said in the Constitution that we could use the pardon power in instances of insurrection and rebellion, alexander Hamilton, he was very much against pardoning these people, so I guess he wanted to make an example of them. So old, duplicitous Hamilton said one thing but wanted to do another To his not his credit, but like it's. Like, okay, we have this. He needed to prove that the central government had a little more muscle than what it had under the articles of confederation. But it's just so funny that the very thing he said that the pardon should be used for uh, he wanted it to not be used for that.
Speaker 1:Uh, fortunately for us, for you know, one of the greatest presidents we've ever had, george washington he said, no, I'm gonna use this pardon for just that reason. And he went ahead and executed the first pardon in American history which overturned a criminal conviction. And it was the first time under the young US Constitution that the federal government wielded military force to quilts on citizens 1795. We got a good and bad Weigh them up. Okay, we got our first pardon used, I would say, constitutionally. I think Matt and I would both agree this was a good pardon for what it was meant to be used for. But, you know, would have been nice if it didn't have to come to the federal government having to send the military in to put it down. Um, that would be very, uh, ominous for the future. That was the first pardon, and a good one at that.
Speaker 2:Good one, good one, he gets an. A-plus for me for that pardon, that's.
Speaker 1:S-tier, that's S-tier right.
Speaker 2:That's an S-tier pardon for sure. Another one that we want to talk about we kind of talked about before. I don't think we have to go too in-depth with the rest of these. Really, that one's a good one, just because it's kind of laying the groundwork for it.
Speaker 2:Jefferson Davis, president of the Confederacy after the Civil War. Basically, we kind of talked about this, I think, before talking about Abraham Lincoln. One thing that probably isn't talked about as much, I guess you could say there's a lot of talk about how he freed the slaves, blah, blah, but one thing was welcoming the south back with open arms. He felt like we don't want to keep this thing going. We won the war. We don't want to rub their noses in it, we just want to. Let's keep moving forward, let's get these guys back on board so we can strengthen back the union to what it once was. So he wasn't able to do it himself, but his boy, andrew Johnson, who was his successor, to kind of carry out his plan for reconstruction. As far as welcoming them back, as far as he could, but he.
Speaker 2:So he was pardoned, but the charges for the treason were never so. Jefferson Davis was arrested for treason in 1865, at the end of the Civil War. He was in prison for two years in 1867. Andrew Johnson granted a full pardon to Davis, but although he was pardoned, the charges for treason were never formally dropped. So he never regained a significant role back in politics. So he didn't have to. Basically, there's different levels that you can pardon someone too. You can pardon them and wipe it completely clear, or you can pardon them in a sense of like, let's just get him out of jail. So there's different levels. So he never I mean not like he would have been able to get a job anyway, it's not like he would have been able to get a job anyway it's not like he would have been like.
Speaker 1:My name is davis jefferson. I'm here to run for for congress. I feel like people knew who this guy was a tax collector yeah, so I think our secretary of war so I mean, I think that was a good one again, again.
Speaker 2:It was the purpose of the purpose of that that, uh pardon was to unify the country, like I said. But it, but it did kind of tick off some Republicans and actually, in unifying it I think it also rifted it a little bit.
Speaker 1:Well, he had to do it. He had to wait until Congress was out of session to pardon other Confederates and Southerners on the condition that they would take an oath of loyalty to the Union. So he couldn't even pass the pardon while Congress was in session because the radical Republicans that basically wanted to throw the book at the South, they did not want to do what Lincoln said and let him up easy. The radical Republicans Thaddeus, stevens, sumner, others from the North, they wanted to throw the book at the southerners and not grant pardons and they wanted to basically make them, you know, pay for everything you know. And but, uh, johnson was not very liked by a lot of those republicans, as matt said, and so, yeah, he had to kind of do it on the sly a little bit and, um, he did it, but it was certainly left very, it was very fractious and it wasn't done.
Speaker 1:I think he had a good intention. I think lincoln did have a good intention. I think he was correct in what he was going to do had he not been shot. And it would have been interesting to see what could have been had lincoln not been shot. Um, but yeah, confederates, and Jefferson Davis the first among them, was uh was pardoned and uh, also an A plus maybe S tier yeah.
Speaker 2:I give him a tier cause. It did probably put a little bit more division between the Democrats and Republicans. Let's give him an eight year for that. So another one. Vietnam draft Dodgers 1977, jimmy Carter. So another one. Vietnam draft Dodgers 1977, jimmy Carter.
Speaker 2:So Vietnam War was a pretty contentious time. We didn't live through it, but our parents did, so we know a little bit about it. A lot of people didn't know why we were over there. We won't really get into that. So people fled to Canada. They sought exemptions. They just bounced and avoided the draft and if they did that, you either got caught, you went to jail, you were stuck in Canada, couldn't come back, or you'd go to jail if they caught you coming back over the border after the war.
Speaker 2:So Jimmy Carter wanted to pardon them. So he did Another way to say let's put this whole Vietnam War Because at this point and again, this probably didn't help solve this too much. But a lot of people who fought in the war didn't like the people who dodged the war and there was a lot of that going on. So Jimmy Carter, maybe to take it upon himself to say everything's forgiven, it's over, let's put it past us, let's do it, but I will say it only applied to those who had not committed violent acts or being convicted of war, war-related crime. So, if you like, incited a riot or something part of your, as part of your draft dodge which I think happened a lot, or whatever, you didn't get pardoned. It was only for, like, the peaceful people. You know that. So it didn't pardon anybody for, like, blowing up a government building because they didn't want to go to war, which I don't think happened, but it didn't happen which didn't happen, so the insurrectory behavior was not pardoned.
Speaker 1:If you were a draft dodger, yes, okay, I think on that score alone we got to give it. Wait what's after A?
Speaker 2:I'd give it a B. I'd give it a B, but I don't know. It depends on the violent acts, though.
Speaker 1:But think about the Whiskey Rebellions. They were tolerating feathering tax collectors and they all kind of Well, they had tax collectors fighting the Serpent. They were insurrectory and rebellious. It's a rebellious act just by drafting it, I'll give you that, judging the draft, we'll give it a b, but it's like okay, as long as they weren't destroying private property and other things like private things, and it was just like they were making. They were making a lot of noise. Yeah, I think it's a b. That's a b for me all right.
Speaker 2:The next one that I got here susan b anthony. This is a little bit of a different one. This is a. This is a. This is kind of a different approach to a part and I would say that might be considered somewhat good but also doesn't necessarily follow the original intent. I'll get to that.
Speaker 2:Susan B Anthony, the suffragist back in 1872, she was convicted of voting illegally as a woman when they weren't allowed to vote. So I don't know if she pretended. I don't know if she pulled a Deborah Sampson and dressed up as a woman or dressed up as a man to vote. I I don't know if she pulled a Deborah Sampson and dressed up as a man to vote, I don't know but she voted illegally. She got caught, she got fined $100, but she never paid the fine, but she was found guilty. She never went to jail, but regardless.
Speaker 2:On August 18, 2020, on the 100th anniversary of the ratification of the 19th Amendment which gave the women the right to vote, 100th anniversary of the ratification of the 19th Amendment which gave the women the right to vote, trump granted. So. Donald Trump granted a posthumous pardon to her. He used it as, like he was saying it was a symbolic gesture for her legacy, since it was the 100th anniversary blah, blah blah. But a lot of people a lot of women specifically and a lot of people just in general like detractors from it viewed it as a way it was 2020.
Speaker 2:So it may have been an attempt to get votes for women, when probably not the most effective thing to be looking for votes for women just based on what all they, what women, are concerned with in these days, rightfully so. So it looked as like this goes into into. I see the point as like hey, that was a time period that we're not proud of. We're happy that women can vote. We're going back. This shouldn't have been a crime, blah, blah, blah and looking at it, but a big miss on the timing that Alexander Hamels 100 years might be a little too late. So I'm putting that on like a yeah, and I don't think I guess I'd go C tier on that.
Speaker 1:C tier. Yeah, they got the 19th amendment. Like what she fought for eventually became law of the land. It's like that is her legacy, so it's like okay but it's on the level of, like the turkey pardons.
Speaker 1:I guess not that much less of, it's not that much more effective but it is a rebellious act, so you could make okay, maybe it's an act of one, she was, but it is a rebellious act, so you could make Okay, maybe it's an act of one. She was an individual engaging in a rebellious act. What if she voted straight Republican? Maybe that's her problem. Maybe that was her problem.
Speaker 2:That's all I have for Not saying that those were all the good. Those were all the good, those were all the good pardons in the history, but just a couple that were highlighted. I'm sure there were a bunch of other great pardons that really, yeah, were necessary and I think we scored them per the constitution, though.
Speaker 1:And then that brings us to oh boy, the bad ones we got. A the bad ones we got a couple of bad ones here. A lot of them. Too many to count, Way too many to count. So the first one here we have Bill Clinton's pardoning of his half brother, Roger Clinton.
Speaker 2:Slick.
Speaker 1:Willie strikes again.
Speaker 1:Yeah it. Uh, it was a case where you know it's a relative, which, first and foremost, your first question is going to be well, how does that benefit? How is that for the good of the country as a whole? Like, what could that individual have been doing? That's, by their being pardoned, everyone's feeling some solidarity or tranquility or an ability to move forward. You know national healing kind of thing. Um, basically what happened was in the 80s his half brother was charged with and served time for cocaine use, for cocaine charge, um, and so, yeah, he was convicted, did the time served, did the time for the crime, and then clinton went ahead and pardoned him, basically to clear, expunge it from his record, from yeah it's kind of how I would see it what's that to me?
Speaker 2:that's just. It's just looks bad. It was fairly unnecessary, it was almost like a flex. I feel like I take that as like almost a flex from slick Willie, like I can do this if I can do this, so I'm going to. I don't need to, but I'm going to. I mean, what really was gained by that? Just getting it expunged? From what's this guy applying for a job? To be a janitor at a high school that he wouldn't have been able to get with a cocaine? Possession charge attack collector for the irs so inspired.
Speaker 2:Actually I guess you probably, probably wouldn't have been able. I guess after that he would be be able to get government jobs that you wouldn't have been before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you're a convicted felon, that's a good point there's tons of jobs you can't get. I mean, I understand and you want to help a brother, you want to help out your family Everyone does. If I could wipe away the crimes of I don't have any felons in my family I'm aware of but um, yeah, of course you want to wave a magic wand and be like I really I want that to be expunged so you can live a fair life moving forward. But when?
Speaker 1:you're the president of the united states, you're held. You're held to a hired standard. In my opinion, or at least you used to be, that's what they intended the office to be. It was meant to be. You know, if you were, if you were, engaging in high crimes and misdemeanors, those were like deemed. Are you not acting in concert with what the constitution is saying? You need to be acting. George washington, a man of duty, you know somebody who lost out. You know lost a lot of his um, you know net worth and a lot of his standing because of the time he served in the presidency.
Speaker 2:And, as he's brought it up, on the last episode, john.
Speaker 1:I know, but I'm trying to bring it back. I'm just trying to say that it just seems like it's just a solid for bro and I think everyone could. People could say, well, he served the crime, he did the time. Feel bad for the guy, I mean he shouldn't be held back. But is that a pardonable offense? I would say no, I'm going to give that a. Uh, I don't know on the on this scale, I'm going to give it a B Cause I think there's far worse. There's one are far worse, there's ones far worse. So yeah, that was Bill Clinton pardoning his half-brother Roger. Next one is Richard Clinton's pardoning of Teamsters president Jimmy Hoffa in 1971. So Jimmy Hoffa of Mafia kidnapped him and we never found his body. Fame In the time he was serving. At the time, in the early seventies, he was ahead of the teamsters and he was serving a 15 year prison sentence for jury tampering and fraud. When president Richard Nixon pardoned him on December 23rd 1971, nixon had one condition, however, that Hoffa should quote not engage in in I think you called him richard clinton, richard nixon, you said richard clinton
Speaker 1:they're both slick dicks, slick willies, like dick, whatever you want to call him. Nixon had one condition is that Hoffa should not engage in direct or indirect management of any labor organization until at least March of 1980. Hoffa agreed and supported Nixon's re-election bid in 1972, along with the rest of the Teamsters. It is believed that Hoffa was trying to reassert his power over the Teamsters to find Nixon's requirement when he disappeared in 1975. So yeah, defying Nixon's requirement when he disappeared in 1975. So yeah, jimmy Hoffa probably not the nicest guy in the world, pretty shady character Obviously got involved with the mafia in some way. Yeah, he was charged with jury tampering and fraud, was literally serving the sentence out when he was pardoned. I'm sure plenty of people in unions who he would have been fighting for way, uh, how this would have brought, uh, any kind of national unity or, you know, quota rebellion or whatever, what have you? Um, seemed a little shady to me, so I'm going to go eight here on this one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1:Mafia got involved. Fat for the fact, it's weird, it's dicey. And then, uh, next one here I got the pardoning of patty hurst, again by our boy, jimmy carter. This guy's was had a hand in everything. So, patty patricia hurst, she was the granddaughter of the publishing titan William Randolph Hearst.
Speaker 1:In 1974, she made headlines when an urban guerrilla group known as the Symbionese Liberation Army kidnapped her in Berkeley, california. Two months later she was 19 years old and photographed robbing a San Francisco bank while brandishing an assault rifle. And photographed robbing a San Francisco bank while brandishing an assault rifle. At her trial, defense lawyer focused basically were saying that you know she was brainwashed, she was put up to it, she was acting basically against her will, like she didn't know what she was doing, and that they were using pervasive tactics, brainwashing tactics. The defense did not work and Hearst was convicted of bank robbery on March 20th 1976. She was in prison for almost two years before jimmy carter commuted her seven-year sentence and freed her from jail.
Speaker 1:It was not until january of 2001 where president bill clinton granted granted her a full pardon on the last day of his presidency. So we had carter and clinton get involved in one. Just you know, carter got her out of jail. Clinton gave her a full pardon, um, same situation, kind of, as the other two. You can make the kids like, okay, it's as on an individual level. It's like she was 19. We all make mistakes, I know what knows I have matt when you were 19, you know no, no, no, you're an angel. Um. So, you know, ran with the wrong crowd, got kidnapped wasn't asking to be kidnapped, as far as I'm aware. Um, so you know, you feel bad for the girl, feel bad for the family, even if they are, you know, quite a. They were a well-known and prestigious family, um, but again, she committed a crime, not something that I think you can just go ahead and and just expunge and pardon for the benefit of the whole country. I don't see it.
Speaker 2:I'm going a tier again um, I'm going d tier c tier c tier yeah, d tier well, I'm thinking, I'm thinking part of them.
Speaker 1:I mean, I just don't see, I just don't see.
Speaker 2:I, I, I get it and she probably didn't deserve it, but is there any proof of any kind of bribery?
Speaker 1:or collusion or anything like that. The granddaughter of one of the country's most famous newspapermen ever was like they didn't have connections to be able to like. That went all the way up the chain.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've never heard of him before.
Speaker 1:Who is it? William Randolph Hearst Never heard of him. There's a castle in California. Never heard of him. Movie Citizen Kane is basically kind of based off of him. It's fictitious, but he's kind of the guy they're getting at. He owned like a newspaper empire anyway yeah, maybe, maybe I'll go be.
Speaker 1:I don't think a see like if there's something in it for Jimmy Carter well, in that case, I really wonder why he part into this other person we're going to be talking about. We'll get there. Um, yeah, so that's another one. I just thought that was kind of crazy. Um, another one here. We got bill clinton involved again. We're not trying to single out carter or clinton, just have that on record. It just so happens that, like it just seems like the closer we get to the present, it doesn't even seem like they're trying to even play to the constitution anymore. With this, with this power that they've been given in the constitution, they just it just seems like they're pardoning their friends and accomplices.
Speaker 2:So in 2001, they're also the only ones that chat gpt came up with when you asked them that's right in this.
Speaker 1:In this top 10 list in time magazine I'm reading we have the white water controversy. I mean, I don't know. I was looking into this a little bit. I watched a 26 minute c-span video on it from the 90s. Like during the 1996 um presidential campaign. The republicans were kind of speaking out against it, but I don't know all the ins and outs about it. You seem like you kind of had a handle on it. Who the Whitewater controversy?
Speaker 2:I don't know much. It was something like the Clintons might have been involved. In Arkansas there was a Whitewater housing development that got in the real estate. I don't know the Clintons were involved somehow. I don't know the Clintons maybe were involved. It was never proven.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they kind of covered their tracks. And there were these people like the McDougals who were indicted and, I think, convicted for it was like a Ponzi scheme, wasn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah, effectively a ponzi scheme, yeah, to create these vacation homes on this river in arkansas, and went, went bad belly up and you know, they just they were deemed as accomplices and they were trying to pin it on clinton that he wasn't, they were his associates and he was in on it and he and hillary knew all about it and like when she was an attorney in the 90s, like she did a lot of work and they were, they did a lot of billable hours for this bank that these accomplices were part of. It was very dicey, very, you know, very sketchy, and so the clintons pardoned them and just on the surface, if people are asking those questions, it's like, well, what's your involvement with them? It just doesn't look good, you know, it just looks.
Speaker 1:It's not reflected very well, pardon susan, susan mcdougall, who was um she was a real estate investor who served prison time as a result of the white water controversy yeah, apparently she.
Speaker 2:She spent two years in prison for contempt of court because she refused to testify against Clinton.
Speaker 1:And then she got a pardon.
Speaker 2:And then she got a pardon, she kept her mouth shut. You know she did, but obviously there's not much of a threat when Bill Clinton's president is like I'll just get pardoned s tier on that one, he's going s I think. So that one bothers me a lot because it's like a potential that they're trying to you know exactly what george mason said of like trying to cover what they're like crimes that they yeah what was the wording?
Speaker 1:themselves were involved in having fall guys that they can then pardon after the fact.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, it really seems like that. So I mean, that's exactly what they were warned against. So I'm going to s on that one and apparently it was a very big comic.
Speaker 1:but pre-monica lewinsky I just feel like when we think back of clinton's presidency, like all, like the drama that was, I think Monica Lewinsky really obviously took the cake by the end of his term. But this whitewater controversy, this was the biggest deal even before he came into the presidency and during his re-election of 1996, it was a really big deal.
Speaker 2:Now we're going to get into some of the absurdities of pardons. The only one that I'm going to talk about from here it's not actually it was never actually a pardon, but I think it's just something to talk about. As we're getting into pardon talk, I think we want to talk about Joe Exotic, the Tiger King, and the story of his pardon for his crimes. So those are the listeners who don't know, john included, because he never saw it. He's one of the only people that never saw the documentary.
Speaker 2:There's a documentary on Netflix called Tiger King and there was this guy, joe Exotic, and he basically went to jail for multiple things some animal cruelty, stuff but the big thing was he hired a hitman to kill some woman who was his competitor in the tiger trade business or she was trying to get him shut down, so he wanted to get her killed or something like.
Speaker 2:I forget. I haven't seen it in a while, but um, anyway, he was, he's been in jail, he's he's sentenced to like 22 years or 20, some years in prison and he thought that he was going to get a pardon from from donald trump before his presidency was over. Um, so much so that he had a limo waiting for him outside of the prison in preparation for his release. So he was like he's just like Hell Ben. He thought that he was unjustly convicted and treated poorly and all this nonsense. I guess in his mind he had Trump's ear, because at one point Donald Jr used his mugshot, superimposed with Trump's face on it, to like I don't know, for some social media posts about. I don't even know what the context was, but I just know that that was done. So he thought that like, oh, I'm in, I'm in with this family.
Speaker 1:They have solidarity.
Speaker 2:They have solidarity with me, he gets it. I think that's what he really took from it. But ultimately he didn't get it. He didn't get pardoned, and the day that Trump left without getting a pardon, mr Exotic posted a note on Twitter. I guess it was saying I was too innocent and too gay to get a pardon from Trump. I only mattered to Donald Jr when he needed to make a comment about me to boost his social media post.
Speaker 2:Boy, were we all stupid to believe he actually stood for equal justice. His corrupt friends all come first. Equal justice his corrupt friends all come first. And um, yeah, so uh, he didn't get it. But breaking news he still wants to get one and he still thinks he's gonna get one in 2025. So much so he is asking to be the fish and wildlife director in his cabinet, claiming hundreds of millions of dollars are being wasted on the department. So he's like Trump, can you pardon me? And they give me a job. And I just have a side note here that Joe Exotic is currently engaged to a fellow inmate who is from Mexico, just in case anybody needed an update on.
Speaker 1:Joe.
Speaker 2:That's lovely.
Speaker 1:That's pretty funny.
Speaker 2:I mean that would have been like a classic. Might as well have done it. I mean it's. Is it that much different than well? I guess I don't know Well. I guess, the white, the white water.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it seemed a little more above board. Like you know, whatever I'm just gonna work with you. It doesn't seem as much smoke and mirrors with old Joe exotic it's. It's the real deal.
Speaker 2:I mean if he has, if having a having a limo waiting for him is classic like the end keys in the engine, ignition, like it running Just going.
Speaker 1:He said that apparently here Joe Exotic says President Biden should release quote normal citizens like him after Hunter Biden pardoned.
Speaker 2:I mean, I just think it's not the best strategy of getting out of jail is trying to get a presidential pardon. I think there might be If you really think that you've been wrongfully convicted. I think there's probably a more straight shooter type. Oh, maybe some appeals the appeal process, get some evidence, you know. If you actually are not guilty, I think you can kind of go through the proper legal channels as opposed to like going right to the presidential pardon as your fail safe is that's a uh that's a bold move, bold strategy.
Speaker 1:Definitely playing off of the Netflix. Hey, I was on television. How much y'all made a lot of money off me. I'll help you, you help me. We'll make a new show together. It'll be great. That's funny. I think we're delaying the inevitable here. This is the what do you call it?
Speaker 2:This is the coup d'etat of the entire podcast.
Speaker 1:I mean, I watched a video not long ago, before we got on air, that claims this is hands down the worst pardon in US history. Not like, without question, I have to agree. I mean, when I, when I saw it in preparation for this episode, I was like really and did it. How is that not in all these lists? You know, because I'm doing like hunter, bider, pardon, like, and it's all everyone's coming out with their you know, oh, other crazy pardons in us history. You see the richard nixon, which we didn't really get into, but rich Nixon's pardon, yeah, the whiskey rebellion, like all the famous ones, or well-known ones, the Confederacy, what have you? And this one just skirted on by. It wasn't on any of these lists that I was seeing, but fortunately there's one YouTuber out there who spotted it for what it is and I think it's hands down the worst Pardon ever Go ahead man.
Speaker 1:So in 1970, peter Yarrow of the folk group, peter Paul and Mary, was convicted of molesting a 14 year old girl in uh, in a hotel room. It's a hotel, doesn't matter the hotel room or his, yeah it was a hotel room.
Speaker 2:She came to get a, an autograph from him. Um, after, I guess after a concert, her and her like 17 year old sister, and this guy, peter yarrow, answered the door butt naked and, uh, had her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we won't get graphic with it, but he started off naked, so so yeah, that's, that's what he was walking, that's what she was walking into. And um, so peter yarrow, maybe just back it up a second here of Peter Paul and Mary fame sang the song. Their biggest hit was Puff the Magic Dragon. That's all I know about it. Live by the sea. Other tracks they had were Leaving on a Jet Plane. That's the full title. I'm leaving on a jet plane. It's a good scene.
Speaker 2:I brought this up. I think I brought this up a couple episodes ago, maybe possibly the last episode Armageddon. Remember that scene when they're getting ready to leave for the asteroid and Liv Tyler is like watching them or whatever, and AJ, who is played by Ben Affleck, is like saying bye to her and they run into each other and he sings the song All my bags are packed, I'm ready to go. I'm standing here outside your door. I hate to wake you up To say goodbye. So, kid. And then remember Michael Clark Duncan's like Leaving on a jet plane Don't know when I'll be back. And then Steve Buscemi Leaving on a jet plane you Don't know when I'll be back. And then Steve Buscemi Leaving on a jet plane. You don't remember that scene. I haven't seen the film. You've never seen Armageddon. No Dude, are you?
Speaker 2:serious it's about an asteroid or something. Coming to Earth, Dude it's one of my favorite songs about it. It's one of my favorite movies.
Speaker 1:It's good, it's real good, sounds like a great soundtrack, so I was saying so. In 1970 he was convicted. I think the act happened in 63. There was a couple instances but they came out after the fact. So years later, as of three years ago, there was another thing, but anyway, we won't get into that. So he was convicted in 1970 of molesting a 14-year-old girl and in 1981, on the eve before he basically left office, president Jimmy Carter pardoned him. It's still it was the first and to this day the only example of a sitting president pardoning a criminal for a crime against a minor sexual crime against a minor sexual crime against the minor I mean that's like the worst possible thing to do, and then the optics of pardoning that person is absurd but the optics were kind of more after the fact because, and people wonder, well, did he was this kind of a setup and was it done intentionally when he did it?
Speaker 1:uh, carter's not on record of, even after he left office, of explaining why he decided to pardon yarrow, but when he issued the pardon, it was basically when the iranian hostage crisis was going on. It was like as he was leaving office and you know that was on the news, that was all over the news was these hostages taken by Iran and you know what's, what's Reagan going to do when he comes into office. So, basically, like, the pardon was issued under cover, basically, of the Iranian hostage crisis and a lot of people were saying that that's why, like it wasn't, it didn't break the news cycle and it wasn't. People were in outrage about it. Um, yeah, which is just horrible. So, but this peter yarrow cat, I mean he got in some hot water just three years ago. Other women have come forward saying that they were also.
Speaker 2:They were also his victim, uh, in the 60s, and I mean you think about like you think about doing a pardon like that and then actually the amount of damage that that could do in society having somebody like that because if you pardon him now, he pardoned it it was like expunged from his record so he wouldn't have to, you know, in today's system, register as a sex offender or like be on that list or any background checks wouldn't come up that he ever did this and the amount of damage that that could lead to is like ridiculous yeah.
Speaker 1:But people are saying, like, well, peter palmeri, they were kind of, they were a folk group and they were involved in a lot of like democratic initiatives, like they've performed at different charity, democratic charity events. He performed in 2008 with Obama and his campaign, so they've been pretty big in the Democratic establishment basically since the 60s and 70s. And so people are thinking, well, maybe Carter pardoned him as like a I don't think because he's his biggest fan, but because it's like I don't know. They said he wrote a letter and his kids.
Speaker 2:He said that because he was remorseful about it. He acted remorseful about it and so he's like okay, if you're really truly sorry about it, fine, I'll pardon you. Which is insane. It's insane because, like how many everyone, how many other? Yeah not only is that crime have that?
Speaker 1:who? Who that commits that crime? Well, one is I personally think I don't think he's really deserving of it, but also he as a famous person at that time just had a, had an audience, you know, yeah, you're gonna read that letter from a like preferential, preferential treatment there which is what a lot of these pardons are, but this is just like unforgivable and the fact that the fact that carter wasn't worried about and this isn't gonna look bad on my legacy, no problem and it hasn't, it hasn't, it hasn't it's not on any of these lists.
Speaker 1:You google like hunter biden pardon, like historical pardons, like hunter biden none of the yarrow is not on any list of like most absurd and like. I mean he's still as you can still say he's done good things. It's maybe you know, but it's like people could ask the question of him and he can defend himself why did you pardon a convicted child molester?
Speaker 2:The thing is that this is it's like? Unforgivable and everything, but it was such a stupid pardon that it doesn't get you anything. It doesn't get you, it doesn't get the country anywhere and even like all these other ones that we're saying are bad pardons in that, like the Whitewater one, the potential for that saying, are bad pardons in that, like the whitewater one, the potential for that or any like the jimmy hoff all the stuff where there's like there might be some conruption yeah, fraud and corruption.
Speaker 2:There couldn't even have been that so like there was no like it's not it's not even bad.
Speaker 1:It's not even like a bad, like it's just so obtuse oh yeah, like just thick-headed, like he did the crime, like the guy was convicted of a, like the evidence was there, like I feel like with a lot of these pardons you can kind of maybe get away with it, because it's like it's not black and white, there are gray areas and that's where they get away with it. Apparently, his kids, they said, and I guess they wrote in the letter or he wrote on, like they don't want to have a sex offender father. Like on the record they do.
Speaker 2:That stinks, man, that one stinks.
Speaker 1:And the fact that he got away with it by like the iran crisis happening like right after it is you could say whatever you could want about peter garo as an individual and what he's done after that, but the fact that the president of the united states deemed it necessary to have to pardon him, uh, that's an s?
Speaker 2:tier, that's beyond s tier in my book that's, that's s plus, that's that's double s it breaks the glass ceiling of as bad as it gets yeah, the only one, as I said, only pardon or individuals pardon related to a crime for a crime related to a minor. So yeah, I don't think we're going to get another one of those in today's climate rightfully so.
Speaker 1:There's no way that would get by yeah, yeah, I don't know how it skirted under. Just crazy, unless he was just such a big fan, yo man jimmy carter 1963.
Speaker 1:Yo man, I got this new album, dude. This album just about a dragon man. It's sweet, dude. I got my peaches growing the farm. I'm in georgia, man, I'm just growing my peaches. He was a farmer. Peanut, no peanut. He was a peanut farmer. That was what he ran on. It was like his whole campaign. He's like I'm the peanut farmer guy. Yo man, I grown peanuts. I'm in nighttime man. I just put on this album with this track on. Maybe his kids wrote a heartfelt enough letter on their dad's behalf.
Speaker 2:Like in crayon, Like please give my daddy a pardon for diddling a 14-year-old.
Speaker 1:Sad face like tears from their eyes, just like waterfall tears from their eyes.
Speaker 2:With like handprints for their signature because they can't sign it.
Speaker 1:Picture of their dad naked in the doorway. Let him go.
Speaker 2:Here's the real question Do you think Biden should pardon the January 6th people while he's still in office?
Speaker 1:I think if he does, that would be probably that would be an S-tier move, a good move, because that would be in spirit. That would be an S tier move, a good move, because that would be in spirit.
Speaker 2:That would be an S?
Speaker 1:tier level of the use of yeah for sure, well timed one. Well, it doesn't allow his other political counterpart to do it, because when he does it it's only going to inflame, not going to like calm the waters now is only going to inflame, not going to calm the waters Now. Is it going to tick off Biden's base if he has one anymore and other fellow Democrats and people that aren't against it? I'm sure, but I think, in the spirit of what the power was said to do in the Constitution, I think that's in line with what Hamilton would say.
Speaker 2:It's almost like a textbook. Use of it exactly I would agree.
Speaker 1:Now, people committed damages you could like charge people for, like civil damage, like things they've come like the.
Speaker 2:I mean you could do the same thing as, like pardon some of them and leave the worst ones in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, like the draft dodger thing, right, there was, there was cut, there's carve outs. It was like, oh, if you did things that were really really bad, but like for 95 of the people that maybe just walked on into the capital because they were just in a crowd, yeah, I don't know of any of.
Speaker 2:I don't know who all went to prison for it.
Speaker 1:But yeah, you could find you make.
Speaker 2:He could maybe find a couple of them to do it.
Speaker 1:It could be a way again for the democrats to come back and try to retake the moral high ground where it's like the whole thing with it is like it was an attack on our democracy. It's an attack on our democracy. They were hammering that home, I mean to try to win an election. I don't think they were saying that to be principled about anything. But if they want to kind of come out from a position of saying like no, like yeah, we did lose, actually we need to, really we need to be serious about healing now. And while we understand that that was an attack on our democracy, we have to believe that, you know, by pardoning these individuals, it'll be the first step towards, you know, a national healing. And then they got to just play to the middle. To the middle, they play to the silent majority. That's just like, oh, that actually kind of was a cool move. Like you know, again, we all make mistakes.
Speaker 2:That would be an Epic move. That would be an Epic move. I mean, I just put it on record that I think there's buttholes should stay in, uh, in prison. I'm gonna say that much. I I'd say like to the same end, where, like if they got, if they got pardoned, it's like oh yeah, okay, well, that's for the reason that we're talking about here, but it's definitely not a pardon for the reason that they shouldn't be in there yeah, I mean you can't just go on property and just you know, you can't just behave that way.
Speaker 1:You know there has to be, you know. But it needs, yeah, it needs to stop being so politicized. And if the democrats choose to do it, I know they'll be doing it for political reasons, to try to make themselves look better, but I think it never can't be to eventually happen like it can't just be like the side that has their guy, they're always going to pardon their guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, maybe it's going to be political, like you need to be a little more politically savvy. It's like, well, if you want to really beat Trump, well then get out ahead of him and pardon them before he can.
Speaker 2:It's just they just broke the rules and you shouldn't break the rules. I follow the rules.
Speaker 1:I don't want to live in a society where people go breaking stuff and disrespecting property, even if it's government property you need to have the rule of law, as I learned on my citizenship test that you barely passed.
Speaker 2:I did good get the hell out of here barely passed. I did good get the hulk out of here barely passed, please I don't think all right.
Speaker 2:well, I think that's pretty much all that we have. I uh just wanted to let the fans know, um, we're trying to put together a best of episode to uh wrap up the year here, the year of 2024, um, so I kind of I wanted to get some input from the fans of what their favorite moments may have been of the show of the past. I guess we started this thing in what? March, february, yep, not a full year, but I want to get a kind of a best of show and kind of go through them. John and I will reminisce on all the great moments that we had here. So, just looking for anybody's favorite moments, shoot us a text or hit us up on Twitter and we'll, we'll, we'll play them on air and, and you know, reminisce.
Speaker 1:Well, fun, fun time together. All the memories and, hey, maybe we'll learn a thing or two again, cause I can't remember half the episodes we did. So, memories, and hey, maybe we'll learn a thing or two again, because I can't remember half the episodes we did so because you don't listen to them, I have amnesia you have selective amnesia yeah, that's true it's a 990 effect. I select what. I choose to remember like Jimmy Carter selects his pardon cases and you won't remember that in three months I won't no of course not.
Speaker 2:It's for the best yep, alright, well with that, we'll see you guys next week see you guys.
Speaker 1:Thanks for tuning in stay. Curious, thanks for tuning in Stay curious Hairy legs.
Speaker 2:Come on, man, and we say bye-bye.