Nailing History
Introducing "Nailing History," the podcast where two friends attempt to nail down historical facts like they're trying to assemble IKEA furniture without the manual. Join Matt and Jon (or Jon and Matt) as they stumble through the annals of time, armed with Wikipedia, Chat GPT, and a sense of reckless abandon.
In each episode, Matt and Jon pick a historical event that tickles their curiosity (and occasionally their funny bone) and dissect it like a frog in biology class—except they're the frogs, and they have no idea what they're doing. From ancient civilizations to modern mishaps, they cover it all with the finesse of a bull in a china shop.
But wait, there's more! In between butchering historical names and dates, Matt and Jon take a break to explore the intersection of history and pop culture. Ever wondered if Cleopatra would have been a TikTok sensation? Yeah, neither have they, but that won't stop them from imagining it in excruciating detail.
So grab your popcorn and prepare to laugh, cringe, and possibly learn something (though don't hold your breath). With Matt and Jon leading the charge, "Nailing History" is the only podcast where you're guaranteed to leave scratching your head and questioning everything you thought you knew about the past. After all, who needs a PhD when you've got two clueless buddies and a microphone?
Nailing History
132 Alternative History Vol. 1–The Butterfly Effect: Britain's Victory in the American Revolution
History is built on pivotal moments where the outcome could have gone either way—and perhaps no American moment carries more weight than our fight for independence. But what happens when we flip the script and imagine George Washington captured at the Battle of Long Island, the patriots defeated, and the British Empire maintaining control of its American colonies?
In this mind-bending episode, we examine a fascinating alternative timeline where the butterfly effect of a British victory in the Revolutionary War ripples through centuries of global development. The consequences reach far beyond American shores—the French monarchy potentially avoiding revolution without the financial strain of supporting American independence, Napoleon never rising to power, and the map of Europe developing along completely different lines.
We contemplate how westward expansion would have been dramatically slowed by British colonial policies, potentially allowing Mexico to emerge as a greater power on the continent. We debate whether slavery would have ended earlier under British abolition or continued longer due to economic interests, and which Founding Fathers might have quickly reconciled with British rule versus those who would have remained defiant to the end.
The conversation takes a lighter turn as we imagine modern American life under British influence—driving on the left side of the road, adopting British humor and cuisine, maintaining stronger ties to the monarchy, and perhaps never developing our distinctive gun culture. Would America have eventually gained independence during World War I when Britain's attention was divided, or would we be part of a Commonwealth of Nations today?
Text us your own "what if" historical scenarios through the link in our description, or email us at nailinghistorypod@gmail.com. The butterfly wings of history are always fluttering, and we're here to explore where they might have taken us.
all right fans, finally back with another episode of the nailing history podcast another installment, as they say. We can all blame john for the delay in getting back to this, so which I think most of our fans would probably know anyway I'll take.
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, I'll take. I'll take responsibility on that one. It's been a busy past few weeks, but I've been wanting to get on the airwaves, matt, with you, it's just been tough. It's been tough, got a lot going on, but I'm excited to be back here.
Speaker 1:What do you have going on? Work things. Working so much you can't spend an hour to prep for a show, huh.
Speaker 2:You know I've been working on it. I've been trying to think outside of the box on on ways and new content we can bring you guys.
Speaker 1:So how's your uh uh 20 push-ups a day going? Good, did some this morning so you were able to stick with that one, but not with the podcast resolution.
Speaker 2:What was our pot? I've not been using chat GPT. I think one of it was to just put more effort in Just period. I'm not waiting so much of Matt's money. I think, as part of it, I want to be conscientious of your time, our fans' time, and realize that it's got to be fun, informative, and I do strive for that. I'm not trying to waste anyone's time certainly not yours but I think we got a good one here today.
Speaker 4:I'm hoping so it's your show, take it away.
Speaker 2:I know the fans favorite episodes are the ones that you host, so I haven't seen any recent polls on that confirming or denying that, so no fan mail. No fan mail. Mm-mm. Nothing, huh Dang. Well, guys, we're here for another week for you, and I was cruising, are you?
Speaker 1:going to ask how I'm doing.
Speaker 2:How are you doing Good? Are you excited to be back here? Sure.
Speaker 1:I've been recently diagnosed with a condition that's hopefully curable, but what is that? Well, I haven't told, I haven't even told most of my family, and I think I don't think I've told you, so I don't know if I necessarily want to share it on air okay, yeah, is that a true story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, yeah, is that a true story yeah, just uh hope everyone has me in their thoughts um okay, a couple weeks ago, I'll give you a little bit, I'll tell I'll fine, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll bid it. So, like two weeks ago, um, it was a saturday and, um, I was feeling a little tired, didn't really want to do anything. My, my calf's been hurting me, my leg, my calf, I hurt myself running on valentine's day, so that's like three weeks ago, and I'm like man, this is taking a long time to heal. I don't know what's going on. So I haven't been doing anything and, um, I decided I think it was two saturdays ago I decided to, um, get make an appointment, um, at supercuts to get my haircut, um, which I usually don't do because it's just like I don't like waiting in line, blah, blah, blah. But I've realized, recently realized that there's an app that you can like look to see how long the wait is for getting a haircut, and I thought that's pretty cool. There's a Supercuts near me so I can kind of track it. When the wait time goes down, I can sign up whatever and check in and head over there.
Speaker 1:Not the best haircut, but it is what it is. So 4.30, say, I scheduled an appointment to go over there. I went over there and the lady was being real mean to me the whole time. Sit up straight, put your head this way. She's being real mean. Ouch, like what do you want? I'm like a haircut. She's like yeah Well, how do you want it done? Which I've said this before. I hate that because I think it's her job to know how to cut my hair personally. But you know that's neither here nor there, like if I say I want my haircut and I say I just want it shorter. However, you want to do it, they should be able to do something.
Speaker 2:I think so.
Speaker 1:I don't know how you normally get it done so anyway. So she's cutting me and then all of a sudden, um, towards the end of the cut, and, uh, she says like hey, um, if you don't mind me asking uh, how much? What kind of shampoo do you use? And I said head and shoulders, which I've been using head and shoulders probably since college. Ever since I started buying shampoo for myself, I've been using head and shoulders, which I've been using head and shoulders probably since college. Ever since I started buying shampoo for myself, I've been using head and shoulders. And she said, oh, she's like well, I think it's doing more damage than not because you have a bunch of dandruff. That was a gut punch, I just didn't know how to feel maybe it's a.
Speaker 2:I think I might be having some right now if it makes you feel any better. I know, every time I tussle my hair every so often and I'm like I don't know if that's just dust in the air or I got dandruff going on. I think it's just a part of life I just don't.
Speaker 1:It makes you feel a little dirty and I don't understand how I've been using head and shoulders. And I'm a little skeptical, thinking that she may have been trying to sell me on a $15 bottle of shampoo which I bought like a sucker, Because what else am I going to do? The sales tactic of like you have dandruff, you need this shampoo. Who's going to say like, don't dandruff, you need this shampoo? Like am I going to? Who's going to say like don't worry about it, you make you feel even dirtier. But she was saying that the oh yeah, it's making it worse. So then I googled. When I got home I googled like hey, does Head Shoulders give you dandruff? And everybody was like no, and everybody was like no, it's supposed to not give you dandruff. So who knows if I had. I never noticed it before, but she was being whatever.
Speaker 1:So she gave me this tree oil shampoo or something yeah, it was 15 for like a bottle, like a small bottle of it and uh, I mean, is what it is? I mean I will say I've I use head and shoulders most of the time but, um, for a couple months there I had run out of shampoo. And you know, like when you run out of shampoo, like you, like you don't realize you run out of shampoo until it's out. I'm not one to keep like spares around. I don't, I don't think ahead like that. So I'm in the shower, I don't have any shampoo. I didn't know what to do. So I started using my camp shampoo, which is hair shampoo, body wash, conditioner, laundry detergent and dishwashing. It's a wall-in-one camping and I think it's good for like going into rivers or whatever.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, like that was kind of I guess you could consider that my emergency stash of like shampoo, because I don't keep real shampoo. So I didn't have shampoo. I'm like, well, I, well, I got to take a shower. I might, I'll go get that, cause I knew I had it and from our trip up to the Adirondacks I think I bought it for that. So I got that. And then you kind of just, well, I problem solved for a while. So I probably use that for I don't know.
Speaker 1:So oh, before you got this haircut, but then I had gone back to head and shoulders for at least a couple weeks before getting this haircut, so it could have been from that. I don't want to knock head and shoulders, but I will knock super cuts. That lady was so mean. Speaking of suits, let's give a shout out to the Black Tux, one of the greatest institutions in america right now. Real easy to deal with for rentals. Um, it's cool.
Speaker 2:This isn't a sponsored advertisement by them either. Fans, this is just us. Yeah, shout out to a great product it's really cool.
Speaker 1:What you can do is you go online and you can book. So you can either order it if you have your own measurements, which I don't know how you would get them unless you have a suit that fits you well, you have. If you have your own measurements, which I don't know how you would get them unless you have a suit that fits you well. If you have your own measurements, you can send them in the mail and they'll mail you a suit. If it's in stock, they'll mail you the suit and you can try it on, and if it doesn't fit, you send it back or whatever. I don't know that whole process. Or they have some locations like a show showroom locations where you can actually get fitted in Nordstrom's Well, mostly Nordstrom's all throughout the country there's like 25 locations and the coolest part about the whole thing is it's very simple. You go on, you book online, you find a time that works for you, you book on it and everything, and then the best part is, four days before your appointment, they'll call you and cancel it and not give you any other options to say, oh sorry, bad news, we got to cancel it and you got to cancel your appointment. So if you want to reschedule, you know, go online or call this number. If you need help, click.
Speaker 1:So really great customer service Like it. And even it's the best part is, even when it's a very um convenient time for any like. Where you know, a saturday at 12 30, I would say, is probably the one of the more popular times for these types of services to be given, and it's just funny, it's. It's so fun that you know even those times they can't, they can't uh, accommodate you. So really good. Theux, theblacktuxcom, t-h-e-b-l-a-c-k-t-u-xcom.
Speaker 2:And for anyone else out there who might have asked been a groomsman in any wedding, just know that if you do call their customer service and you say, hey, the groom said I need to get this color tux, and you say hey, the groom said I need to get this color tux, they won't necessarily recommend you to do a different fit of the same color tux. They may well recommend a totally different suit color for a groomsman. So that's always fun to deal with too.
Speaker 1:And what's really fun is when you rent a suit, they mail it to you 10 days before the wedding. So if it was a destination type wedding where you might be heading to the destination of the wedding maybe a week beforehand, when it comes 10 days beforehand, you only have 3 days to take care of any problems that are there. So really fun, it's going to be a really good time and just living on the edge. So if you like that adrenaline rush of living on the edge, then you know, go to theblackduckscom t-h-e-b-l-a-c-k-t-u-xcom.
Speaker 2:All right, you want to get started on the episode, john now that we got our sponsor in let's do it fans, so I'll take it back. Take it back a few weeks here. So Matt and I were looking for ideas for a show. I am anyway, so.
Speaker 1:I get my lunch break. Yeah, you're the only one pulling your own weight. You're right. You're right, you're right.
Speaker 2:You're good, I got you, you're good. Yeah, I forgot.
Speaker 1:So I was at lunch, right?
Speaker 2:So here I go, I'm walking around and I end up walking into a whole foods I work in baltimore, go into a whole foods and I'm just kind of cruising around killing time and lo and behold, I see a picture of what looks like I don't know, say a 73 year old john f kenn Kennedy staring me down in the face. And I walk and it's basically it's a magazine, a magazine stand, and it says what if a book of alternative history? And that perks me right up. I am like that looks cool. I got to check this out.
Speaker 2:So I pick it off off the stand, I'm flicking through it, flicking through it and it's basically just all of these what-if scenarios in American and British history. It's actually a British-published magazine book, as they say. I don't know, and so I take a picture of it, send it to Matt. And he asked well, did you pick it up for the podcast? And by this point I'd already left Whole Foods and I was like, yeah, I don't know, but you're always looking for an idea, even though you found this but didn't buy it.
Speaker 1:I thought about it, but I needed a confirmation and I texted Matt.
Speaker 2:He's like, oh, are you going to get it for the podcast? And I'm like, yes, I am. You said, should I? I think was the exact response. And then Matt went in, bought his own copy online and I don't know. I just think it kind of got some really cool possibilities.
Speaker 2:What if history went another way? You know that's we here on the podcast. We always, you know, we try to replay it by the book and look at history, the facts of history, and see how we ended up here today in our normal timeline. But I don't know. We just thought let's think how we can think outside of the box. And what if we ask the, you know, the what ifs? I think those are just as good at, you know, seeing how things could have turned out. It's fun, it's different. And so, yeah, like I said, there's all kinds of things in this magazine. It's very pop history kind of focused. You know, for instance, they have what if Germany had won World War I? What if North Korea had won the Korean War, et cetera, et cetera. So we're going through and we're thinking, all right, what can we maybe touch on that we've focused on previously in this podcast and maybe go down a different path.
Speaker 2:If we were to take a different angle in history, how might things look a little different? And, as a lot of our fans may know, at the beginning, when we first launched this whole thing, a big kind of period we stuck with was the late 18th century, around the time of the American Revolution and immediately thereafter. So in this book they actually have a really cool article. That's probably been posited a number of times, but they were able to pull all these different historians together and kind of get their hot take on. What do you think it would have looked like if the British had won the War of Independence? And yeah, that kind of got matt and i's head scratching and we decided to say, hey, you know what? I think our fans could find this pretty interesting, entertaining. I think it's safe to say that many american history students don't contemplate if we had lost the American Revolution, if the United States had lost the American Revolution.
Speaker 1:What makes you say that?
Speaker 2:I don't. Well, I remember being in high school and even in college and some history classes I took. We never had a what-if supposition.
Speaker 1:So it's never been done.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm sure it's been done, but you know it's With all of these what-ifs. Like'm sure it's been done, but you know it's with all of these what ifs, like anything it's always breaking the barriers of what history, what learning about history, can actually achieve. Oh, we're busting through the glass ceiling oh, we're doing it, so yeah, so this whole art it's a really interesting article and basically the way I have it. They basically just ask these seven grand questions you know what would have happened if the British won?
Speaker 1:Have you ever seen the movie Butterfly Effect John With Ashton Kutcher? I?
Speaker 2:don't think I've seen the whole thing.
Speaker 1:no, but I know the premise. What's the premise?
Speaker 2:You know if a butterfly, well the.
Speaker 4:No, it's about.
Speaker 1:The butterfly effect doesn't actually involve a butterfly.
Speaker 2:You realize that, right, no, but the concept is that if a butterfly flaps its wings on the other side of the planet in a certain way or, you know, have, a ripple yeah I have a ripple effect on the consequence on on other space-time continuum kind of thing. It's like if one thing if I wave my hand a certain way in front of you on the computer screen, could that cause an earthquake in another timeline, right? Isn't that kind of what it means.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's that if one thing that changes um one, if one thing happens differently in time, everything you know it's a, it's a uh, domino effect of like but a perceived but like what is perceived as an insignificant change or an insignificant action, might have a very big consequence that maybe isn't perceived by the, by the observer of that small change the idea came to be known as the butterfly fact, after it was suggested that the flap of a butterfly's wings might ultimately cause a tornado.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see it was coined in the 1960s by Edward Lawrence, a meteorology professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. I would think it'd be like a quantum physics theoretical In the movie the Butterfly. Effect. In the movie the Butterfly Effect, actor Ashton Kutcher plays a man who has found a way to travel back to time in his youth.
Speaker 4:Each time he returns to childhood, he makes some minuscule changes that radically alter the life in the present, inevitably leading to you guessed it terrifying results. Inevitably leading to you guessed it terrifying results.
Speaker 2:Doesn't Nick's girlfriend end up dying?
Speaker 1:I remember the big guy from Boy Meets World is like a gothic dude. Yeah, his roommate in college.
Speaker 2:And she becomes like a drug addict in one timeline.
Speaker 1:I think that was the actual timeline it's all based on. They blew up some guy's mailbox and that's how that's the real and like killed a kid or something that's the, that's the real timeline I think so, but anyway so that's what we're looking at? We're looking at like, uh, the butterfly effect of history. I think somewhat yeah, but. Because one thing changes and there's a lot of small things that you wouldn't think about that actually are interesting to think could have been a result of one thing changing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know it's the butterfly effect doesn't have to just be a small event but that's kind of what.
Speaker 2:No, I understand that, but it's also. I mean, you're also not going to write a magazine about what if scenarios? If a butterfly landed on a rock at the battle of saratoga that didn't actually land there, how could that have changed the course of history? You're gonna have to say, well, what if the americans lost the battle of saratoga, then go down a whole timeline.
Speaker 1:But these things you kind of you know, you can only which, as we discussed in um, which, as we discussed in previous episodes of this podcast, the battle of saratoga, which was we actually went up there right, did we? Is that this podcast? The Battle of Saratoga, which was we actually went up there right. Is that where we went? We went to Saratoga Battlefield. Yes, we did For a little bit. We learned that if they didn't win that battle, possibly would have lost the war. So you could change this into what if the Americans lost the battle of saratoga? What would have happened?
Speaker 2:I think that's a good set and I think that's a good um point to kind of have in the because, in doing research for this podcast, the biggest sort of like okay, what if the British won the War of Independence? But the war lasted for what? Eight years? I think the real question for me anyway, and kind of where history could have gone, not just in the US, not just in what would have been the US and Northica, but like the world as a whole, for me it really stems around if france got involved, and the only reason why france got involved, as we learned previous ones, was to basically try to weaken its opponent, that in britain. So you know, yeah, like you said, if we don't win the battle of saratoga, maybe it's a little harder to convince them to get in and there were other time periods before they could have lost the war. But yeah, if France doesn't get involved in this war, then they're not strapped for cash, they're not a bankrupted state, basically on the eve of the French Revolution, let's get into it.
Speaker 1:Of the French Revolution, let's get into it. Yeah, let's get into it. Let's just go through the timeline as it was in both ways. John, why don't you give us a little summary of the time, the two alternative timelines posited by these Brits who put this magazine together for whatever reason? You'll find out that it's very. All of these answers and all of these things are very pro-british in my opinion what's stopping american?
Speaker 2:what's what's stopping brett bauer, or uh, or your boy, uh brian stelter him or that other Fox commentator writing alternative histories. I don't think Americans want to contemplate if we lost the revolution. I don't think it's in our kind of a. The British are just asking the bigger questions or they just have more time on their hands. I don't know Anyway.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so the way this magazine's laid out. You probably still butt hurt over it. That's the sad part.
Speaker 2:It seems that way, but anyway. Yeah, so in this they have two separate timelines and the way they have it set up in the magazine is that they basically start with four points on a neutral timeline, so like it's going one way, and then it just splits. So here they have the real timeline. So this actually happened. So in 1774, the Intolerable Acts were passed, which we talked about before, and that was basically as a result of the Boston Tea Party, and you know they were basically that was a way the British were basically clamping down. Then we held a Continental Congress that same year. First Continental Congress was formed. They agreed to oppose the Intolerable Acts. In 1775, april 1775, we have the shot-heard round of war, the Battle of Lexington. Okay, so we're still on track. And then a few months later we get the Battle of Bunker Hill, where the Patriot troops bravely resisted a repeated British assault. Okay, the British lose massive numbers but prevail to take Bunker Hill. Okay, and now, okay it all goes Haywire.
Speaker 1:This is where the, as John would say, the butterfly kicks in. The butterfly lands on A rock at Saratoga, somebody's musket and throws off their shot.
Speaker 2:Yep so we'll stick with the real timeline just as a quick recap.
Speaker 1:So I think most people should know how this goes. But go quickly, go actually before the split.
Speaker 2:It's that they have here. Britain rejects peace in the summer of 1775, king King George III ignores the Second Continental Congress's Olive Branch petition and the war continues. In May of 1776, king Louis XVI of France solves the Americans' munitions problems by granting a huge donation Soon after the US Declaration of Independence is voted on in July 4th 1776. Okay so, staying on our real timeline, washington carries out a surprise attack at the Battle of Trenton. The Patriots claim a decisive victory, boosting morale. France declares their support of the Americans and declares war on Britain following the Battle of Saratoga. Three years later, british surrender at Yorktown, shown in full detail in the movie Revolution starring Al Pacino we'll also be going down there in a couple months in 1812 we have another war between the British and the Americans.
Speaker 2:The Star-Spangled Banner is written and then, april 1917, the US enters World War I. We had a policy of neutrality, but then we decided to get in on that following the destruction of Lusitania.
Speaker 1:So this timeline basically goes to like we were dem boys, then we weren't dem boys and then we were back to being dem boys. That's right.
Speaker 2:So now let's say let's turn it around. Let's say okay, what happened?
Speaker 1:Let's put this whole thing on its head. Let's put this whole thing just right upside down on its head.
Speaker 2:Matt, do you want to explain the alternate? Give them a little something, something.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you're doing good Okay.
Speaker 2:So here we go, fans. This is when it gets really crazy. So here we go, fans. This is when it gets really crazy. So we declare our independence, july 4, 1776. All right, now fast forward to August of 1776. Sir William Howe, the commander of British forces, claims victory at Long Island. The Americans try to escape to Manhattan, but the British cut them off.
Speaker 1:George Washington is killed.
Speaker 2:Then we have the Anglo-American agreement.
Speaker 1:Well, I will say interesting. They picked the Battle of Long Island as the butterfly in this story and not the Battle of Saratoga. My opinion not well researched by these brits, but go ahead yeah.
Speaker 2:So they're saying from the jump we're losing, so very shortly from our declaring independence, they're basically the british are nipping this in the bud I'm just saying I'm saying so anyway in this timeline. Ge George Washington dead following the battle on Long Island. Then we get the Anglo-American Agreement and this pact officially ends the war. Patriot supporters who don't flee are imprisoned or hung, including key leaders like John Adams and Benjamin Franklin, and Britain goes on to cement her hold of the colony.
Speaker 1:They're saying it wouldn't have even lasted a year, the war.
Speaker 2:Wow, Well, by that point it would have been a year.
Speaker 2:Get your head up your butts, yeah, out of your butts. So basically it's probably not back to business as usual, but the timeline is saying okay, the war ends in 1776, and then they fast forward to 1790. The 13 American colonies along the Atlantic coast serve as the main destination for UK prison transportation. Far fewer convicts are sent to Australia In 1803, with France effectively bankrupted by its support for the American Revolutionary War. Spain is courted by the British government and persuaded to release Louisiana. Britain purchases the territory at a steep discount.
Speaker 2:Then fast forward to 1823,. France invades Spain. France invades Spain. King Louis XVIII, angered by what was seen as Spain's gross betrayal in selling quote French Louisiana, orders the invasion of Spain, but retreats when Britain weighs in. Fast forward to 1840,. Between 1840 and 1867, we have an act of union. Lower Canada, upper Canada and the American colonies are united into British North America. The British government appeases the French by granting trade with the regions that France had ceded In 1868, america population booms, boom. Controlled immigration into British North America has gradually increased, with transportation of criminals to both America and Australia ending in 1868. That's where they ended, huh, that's where they ended.
Speaker 2:That's where they ended, well done Brits, well done chaps.
Speaker 1:I will say their timeline. So basically they're saying that America would have been a bunch of criminals.
Speaker 2:That's what have, yeah.
Speaker 1:Cool.
Speaker 2:They would have sent more to Georgia, australia wouldn't maybe have been as important. I think, yeah, I agree with you. I think they could have done more with this timeline. I think there's a lot more. What if they could have, like, actually tackled? That's what we're here for. We're going to make our own timelines, we're going to try and really kind of just get down to what really might have happened. These Brits are way too. They got blinders on. They have those blinders on and we're trying to break those away. Let the butterfly spread its wings so let's just, let's just stop.
Speaker 1:So let's just start with. Let's just go with. Okay, us loses the war, or whatever, whatever you would call it? Would you call it the usS loses the war, or whatever, whatever you would call it? Would you call it the US, the colonies lost the war? I guess Colonies lose, go back to being colonies, and what happens in America? What do you think happens with people like well, I guess if George I don't know that George Washington dying is nonsense he wouldn't have died. That's just BS. I don't think the commander and commander of the army would ever be in a position to be killed. Although George Washington did seem to fight, more so than you would think, I don't know how involved he was.
Speaker 2:I think he would have. I think the consensus is.
Speaker 1:You think he would have gone down with the?
Speaker 2:ship. He probably wouldn't have died in battle. He may well have been hung if they were captured. I think he would have been captured and then tried for treason.
Speaker 1:That's what I'm saying. So all the boys would have been tried for treason. All the big players in the game. Benedict Arnold would have beenason all the big players in the game. Benedict arnold would have been laughing all the way to the bank. Although 1776, benedict arnold wouldn't even had a chance to to uh defect, so he probably would have gotten hung too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, huh, I don't know if he launched the this. I don't know. If he had launched, he definitely would have gotten hung. I don't know when was the invasion of Quebec. I know that he led that. I think that might have been after 1776.
Speaker 1:I think so, and he was leading that.
Speaker 2:So if that had happened, he definitely would have been toast, oh you mean it would have happened before.
Speaker 1:He might not have been as big of a player. Well, he might not have been on the British radar as much 1775.
Speaker 2:So no, he would have been on the British radar as much, yeah, 1775. So no, he would have been so in this. Yeah, he would have been toast.
Speaker 1:Well, there you go. So you think about there's a butterfly, there's one butterfly, butterfly number one. Benedict Arnold would have been hung instead of you know.
Speaker 2:And maybe a hero to some that like if there was any patriot sympathy.
Speaker 1:He could have died with honor.
Speaker 1:I think you would get a similar and then you wouldn't have like the, the colloquial phrase of like dude, you're such a benedict arnold, what do you think it would be. You wouldn't have that. So okay. So these guys get hung now, like, what do you think would happen with, like westward expansion? So we talked about the louisiana purchase was like kind of the biggest part of westward expansion in real, in, in real time, which I don't think this goes over in the real timeline. Um, france sells the louisiana purchase to tommy jay for on the cheap, because they're in the middle of the of the french revolution and they need money, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, but the french had bought it from the spanish, or it was ceded back to the french in 1800, right to napoleon, because they were like so it it was French.
Speaker 1:Spain got the territory after the French and Indian War, the Seven Years' War, right. So then Spain had it and they didn't really even want it. So they gave it back to France in 1800. And then that gave France something to sell to the US to be able to fight Britain more. I wonder if Spain was like yeah, let's give this. I wonder if that was a thought, is like, because spain and britain weren't, weren't them boys either? Right?
Speaker 2:so spain and france were dem boys before the french revolution. So when they actually did the swap so following the french and indian war, you know basic france lost canada to the British. That's why we have Quebec and it was very French and very Catholic they still had like. Towards the end of the French and Indian War, they still held what was called Louisiana, all that territory. But they basically had a secretive treaty with the Spanish in 1762. So before the war even ended, king Louis XV and King Charles III of Spain, they were demboys and they basically agreed to swap territory. So France would give Spain what is Louisiana, the Louisiana territory, and Spain would give France some territory in what is now Italy. So they had had an arrangement that worked out for both parties. I guess France was saying, okay, well, we're losing this war. We got to fold all of our chips on North America. We just lost what is now Canada. Let's just get out of this whole thing and maybe we'll devote our time elsewhere, maybe in Asia, in southeast asia and india.
Speaker 1:Maybe they'll try to stay competitive with the british down there so the difference would be because I guess the the the situation is france probably wouldn't have, they possibly wouldn't have. I guess, in general, france in this alternative timeline, france, french Revolution wouldn't have happened for multiple reasons. I think part of the motivation for starting that revolution was the French people saw the American colonies rise up against the big empire and they won. So I think they were able to. They thought like, hey, we can do this too. So not having that example. And then also, if the war only lasted a year, france wouldn't have gotten involved, or even if they did, it wouldn't have been at the financial expense of what it was, so maybe they would have been in better shape and there wouldn't have been a reason for it, even though there were multiple other reasons why the french revolution happened, but very calcified and dated and a lot of the systems right but I think that was a big deal.
Speaker 1:A big part of it was like why do we waste all our money for america maybe, I don't know, so yeah. So the thought here is so then. So then there's not that much difference. So they're positing that, like britain, spain would have just sold it to spain, would have sold it to britain, as opposed to france ever getting it and selling it to the us for cheap.
Speaker 2:I don't think westward expansion would have happened way slower had britain retained the colonies the reason, main reason being was could be after the war, after the french and indian war, you had the royal proclamation of 1763, which was basically britain, saying we're going to create a buffer between yeah, we're not going colonies yeah, we're not going past the appellation of french right because they don't want to.
Speaker 1:I think it was mostly for the native american, like I mean, it's french territory but it's for the native americans. I think that the one of the main reasons for that is they don't want to spend any more money like right.
Speaker 2:You know, it's border defense yeah, like that's the big reason they had to basically bring troops and why we were taxing, why the british were taxing americans is like they would say, it is well, you're paying for your own defense. Like we just fought a war in a way for your benefit and now we have this western frontier we need to protect and, um, we're gonna charge you taxes to be paying for it. And you know, we have people in britain paying stamp duties and other taxes that they've been paying for decades. By the time it comes to the colonies, it's like, yeah, you got to pay your fair share. I mean, I think that was kind of what the British were saying. I think they were kind of making a little bit of a Trumpian argument you got to pay your fair share for your own defense. I think they overstepped their bounds, like forcing troops to be quartered on the dime of colonists. I think that was a big whoopsie.
Speaker 1:Well, that was all for the coercive act.
Speaker 2:the intolerable acts, yeah, and that's why we have an amendment.
Speaker 1:Which probably would have been the rule of the land also. It was like those intolerable acts where it was basically like they can control. It was just you have to quarter your soldiers. You got to pay taxes and all that stuff. What?
Speaker 2:They might have pulled back. I think you might have gotten. I think there could have been a Lincoln situation here, I think, with the Confederacy. I think there could have been a let them up easy mindset.
Speaker 4:I don't.
Speaker 2:You think they would have thrown the book at them? They were already maybe certain regions, certain regions maybe new england, more than the south, like the south they had, they were still producing, you know, raw materials and goods granted with slave labor at that time, and I you know well, that's another point I want to get to.
Speaker 1:That's another point that I want to get to in a little bit.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:So we're stuck on westward expansion. So we're here. I think that's pretty much it. I read somewhere in this magazine that was this I think is one of the most heavily leaning British opinions or arguments that I read in this thing. They basically said in reality, great Britain didn't lose much from losing the war. They still were able to trade freely with the US and on top of that so they were able to still trade and make money and their economy didn't really get hurt that much in that sense of trade, and so they were able to do that and they also didn't have to spend the money of governing and defending the colonies. It was kind of like a win-win for them at the end of the day. So if you really look back at it, I'm curious if the British were just like If the British mindset is like why do we even do that? We should have just let them be free.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, hindsight's 20 2020 and I don't know, the british knew that they were going to have someone like an alexander hamilton or john jay or people promoting a continued close tie with the british empire even after independence but you gotta figure that there's no way the colonies are gonna be able to survive on their own.
Speaker 2:But whatever, yeah, I don't know, I just think the king was. You were seen as a subject and you were an open rebellion and you have to be dealt with and you know we gave you a pretty long leash for 150 years.
Speaker 2:Yes, you've been governing your own affairs, but, okay, you, you have local autonomy. You're claiming you know rights of these ancient institutions that you'd say your other, you know british, your fellow englishman would have, but you're stepping out of line, like you still need to know who who holds sway here. So I think that's why they would have said we got to prosecute the war. But yeah, I think of hindsight being 2020, fast forward to the british in 1805, when they're in the height of, if they're fighting, uh, they wouldn't have napoleon to be fighting, possibly. So like, yeah, I think in hindsight, they probably would have maybe not prosecuted much, or they would have just been more lenient to the colonists in their, in their right, in their desire for self-government, I don't know, it's uh so that's that takes care.
Speaker 1:In my opinion, that takes care of the geographical thing.
Speaker 2:I also think, if Mexico became a problem, which some people so some of the research I was doing outside of this everyone was asking okay, the French Revolution? Sure, maybe the French would have been in a position, had they not gotten involved in the American war, the French monarchy would have been in a position to maybe be open to a constitutional monarchy. Maybe they would have made some reforms in kind of like, in a British model, to kind of appease certain landholders, the clergy in France or what have you. They would have been in possession to stem that tide.
Speaker 2:Others that I was reading saying well, the Mexican revolution probably may well have gone ahead, and in part because mexico, you know, so far removed from the span, from spain, who was governing their affairs like they may, mexico could have still fought for their independence. And had they fought for their independence, you can make this. You could basically say, well, maybe mexico would be the ones with that spanish territory when what is louisiana? So, who knows, mexico could have been a much bigger power, play much big, bigger superpower, and then maybe that would have been an impetus for for the 13 colonies and what would be canada to merge, because you have a rampant mexico on the loose.
Speaker 1:Um oh yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, yeah, the geography could have gone a few different ways, but I think we both agree that, yeah, population would not have swelled. There would not have been as much of an open floodgate of immigration over the course of the 19th century.
Speaker 1:I think it would have just been like obviously, well, what they say. I don't know how they get the year 1868, but up until that point it would have just been convicts being sent over here. I guess for the most part.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it would have been convicts, certainly in Georgia and other places, and there would have been some natural population increase by natural means. Ben Franklin apparently was saying like we were going to have more, just by natural birth, there would be more American colonists than there would be actual British or English subjects in the mother land or whatever. So that might have also changed the dynamic, you know.
Speaker 1:But I think probably would have happened anyway. I think I think it's almost inevitable that the independence would have happened if it would have been a war or not. I guess that would have happened anyway. I think. I think it's it's almost inevitable that the independence would have happened if it would have been a war or not. I guess that would have been the real question yeah it.
Speaker 2:It might have just been a whimper of independence as opposed, this is just too expensive to operate, too expensive to run you know, one thing that I thought was interesting is gun control.
Speaker 1:You Big Second Amendment situation here in America and it stems from Probably is directly related to look what we were able to do because we had the right to bear arms against the British government. That was the big argument, I assume to include that in the Bill of Rights, and obviously it's been a contentious thing at present day. But if they had lost that war there's no way they would have the right to bear arms at that point.
Speaker 2:I think britain may have learned their lesson there yeah, well again if they would have come back to a more standoffish approach there's no way he would have let him do that then again that would mean the british would have to continue to provide that security. So I feel, I feel like the idea of self-government and self-rule and self-defense.
Speaker 2:I mean technically it's a win-win, right like to form their own militia groups now would they have allowed them to have any gun they want just, or any arm, just to have that. No, I mean, maybe they would have said well, you can't have cannons as a private citizen or as a private subject, you can't, you can't have these select arms. But yeah, you were still, although I guess they might say well, what are you having to defend yourself against? Because presumably the Indians would have been pacified. Huh, them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, that's the point. So let's get into. I think this is the big one. This is kind of to me. An interesting part of the whole thing is slavery and industrialization and how the North and South would have been impacted differently from the results of this. John, you started getting into it a little bit. My thought is so slavery was outlawed by Britain in 1933, right?
Speaker 4:I think that's when it was like 1833, yes.
Speaker 1:So one thing obviously I would think you would think, and maybe it wouldn't be the case, maybe they wouldn't have outlawed it in the colonies because of how well it helped Britain financially at the end of the day, and maybe out of sight, out of mind situation, who knows what, like um, it would have been. So there were a couple things, a couple things that I thought are an interesting flap of the butterfly wings as it comes to slavery is we talked about this a little bit. I don't know if there would have been as much of a push for industrializing the, the colonies as quickly as it happened, because I you would think that britain might look at it as like, well, we have the textile, or we have the textiles or we have the industry here, we're just going to use the colonies for their farmland and all the you know agriculture, what they had been doing to that point. You don't have alexander hamilton pushing for industrialization in the north.
Speaker 1:So if there wasn't that much industrialization in the North, would there have been? There wouldn't have been as much. I don't know if there would have been as much of a divide between the North and the South as far as slavery goes, because the main reason why, one of the reasons why the North was so I don't want to say they were so anti-slavery, but they were more of have an abolitionist ideology is in reality, it didn't hurt them in their pockets as much because they weren't as much of an agriculture, they weren't utilizing the slavery. You know the benefits to that. You know, at the end of the day you can say it was for um, you can say it was for uh, it was the right thing to do or whatever yeah, moral reasons.
Speaker 1:But at the end of the day, I think a lot of the reason why it was a bigger group in the north and it was that there was that split was because north was more industrial, industrious and the south was more agricultural. So would you have had that like split or would everyone have been like, no, we want to keep slavery. For that reason, they would have made more. And then so, yeah, what would have happened there? It would have been harder to abolish slavery If Britain left it to the colonies to say like, if you guys want slavery, you can have slavery out of sight, out of mind, whatever.
Speaker 1:What would it have been? Would it have been more of a? Everybody would have been, oh, we're keeping slavery. Would that have happened? How much longer would it have been? Would it have been more of a? Everybody would have been, oh, we're keeping slavery. Would that have happened? How long more? How much longer would that have lasted? But then also, do you think if it wasn't that way and it was still kind of like and just based on morality or how people were raised in new england and that's kind of where the abolishment came from do you think there would have been a situation where still the north and south would have been split and maybe the south would have tried to gain their independence by themselves against britain. You know, those are two.
Speaker 2:Those were two kind of uh scenarios that I kind of thought of yeah, I certainly think, and well, a big, a big part of the question would be the transportation of slaves. So that is kind of, I think, a major contributing factor If you're going to. Yeah, there were certainly moral abolitionists saying it's just wrong to own another human being and treat them in a certain way. But I think the transportation of slavery or that ending in 1807, but like the writing was already, on the wall.
Speaker 1:You mean shipping them from Africa to America, from Africa to America.
Speaker 2:I think that was a major difference and the ships that oftentimes they were on were Northern built ships. So you could make the case that if transportation lanes stained open and the British continued to allow the transportation of slaves, I would wonder if the North would be as anti-slavery as they are known to be in history.
Speaker 1:Just because of being able to sell the ships or being able to, they're transporting the slaves.
Speaker 2:So they need this market. The market is it doesn't matter if it's cotton, I mean, or human beings, if they were making money and the means of getting it was on the ships they were building. Money Talks.
Speaker 1:BS walks.
Speaker 1:If there's one thing I learned in life, it's that. And that's the end of the day. I mean, that's the thing you got to think. Take all the morality out of it, the morality issues out of it. Everyone's just trying to make a buck, and I think Britain would have been looking at it differently if they were making the money off of this crop or whatever, making the money off of the slaves. I don't know. I don't know what the slave situation was like in Britain in the 1820s. I don't know. It had to have been a different scene than in America.
Speaker 2:Well, the slave trade ended. It looks like it ended in America. The slave trade ended in both Britain, the British Empire. So in the real timeline, fans, British Empire ended abolished the slave trade in 1807. America abolished the slave trade in 1807 1808, so they actually both at the same time abolished the slave trade.
Speaker 1:But that was just transporting from africa. But there was there was still slavery this is just like international slave trading, right. But then you know, and then at these at the same time and I don't know the time, the exact timeline of how all this stuff went, but america, up until the civil war they were working on like a slower abolishment of slavery, in a sense that like if you were born before this year, any of your kids are free, or whatever. I think that's kind of how they started started doing it.
Speaker 1:We won't get into that, Abraham Lincoln yeah right, we won't get into that, but it's not like it was like zero to 100 in 1865 or whenever the actual emancipation happened. But anyway, go ahead. I don't know where I left you.
Speaker 2:Well, I also think we have to consider the underlying. So what happened right? Why do we have Haiti? I mean, haiti is a country today because of a slave revolt that happened to their French overlords in the 1780s.
Speaker 1:So you think they would have been more vulnerable to a slave revolt? In the. Caribbean.
Speaker 2:Primarily in their Caribbean slave revolt. The caribbean primarily in their caribbean, I would think even more so in the caribbean possessions, in the in the west indies and and places like that where the slavery system was but who cares about that?
Speaker 2:right now we're talking about america, I think the slave revolt, yeah, I think. Hey. Well, you have to look at it as a whole. If you're talking about the whole British Empire winning the war and them being, I think they would have still ended slavery, probably in the 1830s. I think southern slaveholders would have been very resistant to it. Would they have been as resistant as they were 20 years later when cotton plantations were that much more embedded into their whole economy, fueling the mills of the north and fueling the mills of britain?
Speaker 1:I don't know but I think you would have the cotton gin embedded. That was basically what caused the slavery uptick in the south. Now 1793, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that was definitely like an accelerant. But what did they do? I mean, with the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833, they ended slavery in the empire, but they basically provided apprenticeship to freed slaves and they compensated slave owners. So you would have to look at that, would have to have been a thing in the southern colonies, maybe all the colonies, I think slavery would have existed in all the colonies up until the british would have axed it under the britain wins, the american revolution timeline, um, I mean, slavery was still a thing in new jersey in 1865 before the 13th amendment was passed. So I think, yeah, you would have definitely had to look at compensation.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I don't know if the British might have sponsored a colonization of Africa, if they would have been interested in sending freed slaves from the American colonies back to Africa. Maybe, maybe not, but I would say this if they did free the slave and there was, you know, however, many millions of these newly freed people and they still had the rules on the books of the 1763 proclamation where you can't move west, then you just increased, you know, your free population by this and that I don't know there would have been something that they would have had to have done, I think, to free them, had they freed them. But I don't see why it would have been any different, like them ending abolishing slavery elsewhere in the empire. I think it would have been I think they would.
Speaker 1:It would have been more of a financial benefit for them to keep it in the colonies yeah, of course it's a greater financial benefit, no doubt about that. That's why I'm saying they might not have done it.
Speaker 2:That's the question well, the colonies weren't just asking the questions that?
Speaker 1:haven't been asked, john, we're. We're turning it upside down here. We're turning history on its head. That's what we talked about ends, I think I think you have a hard time having any kind of imagine. Do you have an imagination? You haven't mentioned the word india once in this conversation.
Speaker 2:Speaking of imagination, the like the crown in the british. What would be the crown in the british empire? You're not even taking into consideration all british possessions in the in this alternative timeline. You just think the american colonies are the bee's knees of the entire British Empire. That's what we're talking about, but it's not. It's not necessarily the case. India was already there.
Speaker 1:How is that having an imagination? Talking about India, you don't have an imagination. I don't think it's amazing. I've never met somebody who had no imagination. I don't know what you want me to say. Your dreams must just be like everyday life, like, oh, waking up, having a coffee, eat my breakfast, go to work, come home from work, go to bed. That's my dream. You can't have any fun talking about anything that happens differently.
Speaker 2:I want to have fun. I'm here to have fun. I'm here to have fun.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's talk about India. Fun. They wouldn't have been able to have the Indian genocide under Winston Churchill, but then that would have been the same mind.
Speaker 2:So you think they would have just kept slavery across the whole empire then? Then why didn't they get rid of it everyone? Why, if they won the revolutionary war?
Speaker 1:I'm not commenting on india, I'm saying in america they would have maybe left it. It's a thought. It's a thought, it's an imagination of what could it be if they had won in America maybe you have to go all the way back to if the, if the, if britain, if britain won the war of independence, how would that have impacted their hold on india? Well, they might I don't think there was. It might not have accelerated their expansion there.
Speaker 2:Maybe they would not have gone in india as quickly as they had had. They kept their american colonies, just like with australia. Maybe they wouldn't have as much of a need for australia like they obviously has had a very big impact so then how would that have impacted the slavery?
Speaker 1:if they didn't go into india, then they wouldn't have had it, yeah, or wouldn't have been as much of an impact is what I'm saying. I'm saying they could have benefited greatly from the slavery in america if they were, if, if they still like, owned america or however you want to say it, held sovereignty over America. You're paying less for the goods.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's lowering the cost of the product. Yeah, I mean I would say it's possible they would have kept it. Yes.
Speaker 4:But, then I would.
Speaker 2:But then it's possible, I don't know if they would have eliminated it throughout the British Empire in the 1830s, but somebody at's possible. I don't know if they would have eliminated it throughout the British Empire in the 1830s but somebody at some point.
Speaker 1:Now what if the South revolted against the North? Still, the Civil War still could have happened, but instead of it being the Confederates versus the Union, it would have been like the Confederates, or whatever you would call them. Maybe they would just be called the United States at that point. You know the United States didn't exist, or they did at one point. Maybe they'd go back and be like we're going to be the United States again, we're the South, blah, blah, blah, and then be the South versus the. You know what do you call it? British North America still would have been, and maybe they would have won, because maybe it would have just been like Britain wouldn't have put.
Speaker 1:I do think Britain would have put as much resources and risked as many lives for the North that the North did to maintain the Union, they probably wouldn't have had as much interest in that.
Speaker 2:No, if the British were only dealing with the southern colonies, I we might. We could have averted war, I think if new england was its own. But it's new england that drove a lot of, obviously the south and, like people in Virginia, they obviously had their own history and knowledge of what self-government meant and the House of Burgesses and all that. But I think New England was such a firebrand for it all that if it was just the South dealing with the British, I think they may well have stayed. There was even books I have one right here about should the Confederacy rejoin the British Empire. During the Civil War there was talks of that too and they were like well, we struck a bad deal with these Northerners, with these New Englanders. We took a rotten deal, joining in union with them. Should we look at returning to the British Empire, even if that means giving up slavery? Because dealing with these guys is even a greater form of tyranny and we're shooting ourselves even more in the foot by staying as part of this union with this northern aggressor.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you can look at it, but no, but that's not this. We're talking. That's a different timeline. We're talking timeline which means with these butterfly wings. I got it. You're getting way into the three, four, five different butterflies.
Speaker 2:So I don't have an imagination. So I do have an imagination. Is that what you're trying to say?
Speaker 1:I don't think you do. I truly don't think you have an imagination. I've never met anyone with less of an imagination.
Speaker 2:Let's get some background here, okay. In 1772, lord Mansfield's judgment in the Somerset case emancipated a slave who had been brought to England from Boston in the province of Massachusetts Bay, and helped launch the movement to abolish slavery throughout the British empire. So even four years, three years before, four years before American independence the ball was already rolling in England about emancipation of slavery. The case ruled that slavery had no legal status in England and, as it had no common law or statutory law basis and as such, someone could not legally be a slave in England the 1772. However, many campaigners, including Granville sharp, took the view.
Speaker 1:I don't want to hear you read about that. I don't want to hear you read this article to the fans for the first time, and I don't think the fans want to hear it.
Speaker 2:I think it would have still ended. I don't think the dollar sign necessarily would have been the be all end all that's because you don't have any imagination. Well, I'm just reading the history. I'm trying to read the actual history and make it.
Speaker 1:But we're in an alternative history, John. We're in butterfly effects. We're in Ashton Kutcher's universe that he created with that fine film. Let's move on.
Speaker 2:I okay, I I think the south would have given up more likely to give up slavery under the terms they would have gotten from the british than what they.
Speaker 1:When we had our pre-show, you said the phrase stayed like a bread basket. I'm not sure what you mean by that, so explain, explain yourself there um, you know just, would the America still have been that breadbasket?
Speaker 2:I don't remember saying that at all. Is that why you put me on the spot?
Speaker 1:I have notes here and I made a note and said John has to explain himself here we were talking about industrialization and then you said stayed like a bread basket.
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, you were saying about it being just more rural and they would have been a colony that fed the mother.
Speaker 1:Is that what a bread basket means? Oh, like they were like the. That's what a colony is technically.
Speaker 2:technically, I mean, they're at the service of the empire to provide food well, that's kind of what we were just talking about okay, just like. I think it's fine. I think it's empire and I think it's interesting.
Speaker 1:The last point I have here that they talked about on this in this little magazine, talked about in this little Brit rag that we purchased, was World War I involvement, which is an interesting thought here. So what happened in the regular timeline? What we talked about was US and Britain were Dem boys. Then they weren't Dem boys. Us and Britain were Dem boys. Then they weren't Dem boys and then, even though they were Dem boys as far as trade and everything, I think that was more of a mutual agreement of we need each other. It wasn't so much that they were Dem boys necessarily, but then they basically weren't Dem boys for a long time in the 1800s and everything them boys for a long time in like the 1800s and everything. And then I think a big part of they they kind of started making back up as far as being them boys like towards the end of the 19th century and that was that and then that was kind of like capped by the us going to going over there and helping them in World War I. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, we certainly had a neutrality act and Woodrow Wilson ran on the I kept us out of the war platform during his term. So we might have been getting closer, but we weren't necessarily you know, strongest allies and there was even talk about us invading. In this magazine there's another timeline of like what if we invaded canada during world war one?
Speaker 1:so I mean I think yeah. So the thought so there's a couple thoughts here too is like one thing is the us was a huge help in in um winning that war for britain, I think and that was a big part of them. The US coming in 1917, 1918 was a big. I'm not a World War I buff, I'm not a World War II buff, not really even a history buff necessarily, but I gather that it helped them a lot and the thought is, with the slower rate of industrialization and therefore a slower rate of population growth or anything like that, maybe it wouldn't have been as much of a leg up to Britain. So again, another thing that helped them at the end of the day is the fact that they were more of a help in World War I. If they had won that war it might not have been as much of a help.
Speaker 1:I think the US would have been dragged into that war if they were part of the United Kingdom at that point or the British Empire, and then that could have also. I think being dragged into all of Britain's wars was one of the reasons for independence anyway, and I think over and over time, if the US kept getting dragged into these wars that Britain was involved with, that England was involved with, could have led to another reason for independence at that point was involved with could have led to another reason for independence at that point. So it could have been like the war for independence would have been delayed until you know the early 20th century and like maybe it would have been a situation with with ireland like as with ireland, where it's like, oh, they're in world war one and they're depleted and you know they're, uh, you know this is an easy time for us to attack, to shoot for independence because they're occupied with World War I.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think one who the combatants would be in World War? I would be very different. Don't know if Germany would even be an empire at that point if you don't have a Napoleon. If you go back down the beginning of the timeline, there's no Germany. There's no probably German unification or Italian unification. So we don't even have those, those countries as we knew them, as we know them.
Speaker 1:I still think oh, that's an imaginative thought. Huh. That's an imaginative thought.
Speaker 2:I still think it would be Britain versus France. That would be the next world war, mean that would be the world war we assume again on this timeline. If france never gets involved in the american revolution, they never have their own french revolution. They then maybe proceed to go around the world. Maybe they're more competitive, maybe they colonize australia and new zealand, maybe they get more imprint in Southeast Asia. France.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, they found that they were there, they were circling around, but if they don't have that, but if Britain would have won the war, Napoleon wouldn't have been doing anything. There would be no.
Speaker 1:You're getting too far into the third butterfly, John.
Speaker 2:Yes, we would fight in world war one, but I don't think it would be against, necessarily against germany and austria, hungary. I think it would be against france, again there you go.
Speaker 1:But yeah, there were some thoughts there. What do you think about the us taking that or the colonies taking that as an opportunity to gain their independence during World War I?
Speaker 2:Quite possible. It's when most revolutions happen. I'll tell you Some Russian revolution happened that way, both of them French revolution happened that way. Most revolutions happen because the one in power is either cash, you know, is having money problems, or is, you know, preoccupied with something else. So I think it would eventually happen. I think you're right I think america would eventually get its independence, one way or the other either there's no way.
Speaker 1:There's no way, we'd still be be a. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think, as I think, as the british empire would mature, I still think we would get something like a commonwealth of nations, where we would have one head of state over all these different nations, but they would all basically be responsible for their own local affairs so let's get to the, let's get to the fun of it here.
Speaker 1:So that's, I don't know. Do you have anything else to add as far as like time, no, that's it, no, that's it, that's the full butterfly.
Speaker 1:I'm shocked with all that research that you did, that you didn't think of anything off paper here. Think of another thing to talk about, but that's all right. So, john, we talked about this. I'm hoping that you took the time to at least get a list together here, the top three founding fathers, to be the first to kiss the ring of the crown. Had they lost, who would be the first flip-flopper, the first three flip-floppers that you could think of?
Speaker 1:I'm going say I thought you'd have this written down. Sorry, I gotta hang with us for the gotta hang with Robert Morris and he was the money man.
Speaker 2:I think the money man would probably kiss first.
Speaker 1:I have him too. Money talks, bs walks, as they say.
Speaker 2:Second would probably be maybe James Wilson of Caledonia. Who's? That Also a federalist. He was Scottish.
Speaker 1:Was he a founding father? Yeah, Pennsylvania. Okay, that's a fun father. Yeah, pennsylvania. Okay, that's a fun answer, that's fun.
Speaker 2:Ruth gave a state house yard speech about what the powers of the federal government would be. My third one I mean Hamilton. He loved the British system. He loved all the corruption of the system. He was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's my first. He's my number one. It definitely would be him. Although he was pretty, he seemed like he was pretty gung-ho in the revolution. You'd think he would. I don't know if he would flip-flop, but I think he would be okay with it.
Speaker 2:I think that's a fair point. That's a fair point. I mean, he fought and he was there. I don't think he would have frozen his ass off at valley forge if he wasn't in it to win it um yeah, like he definitely wanted to be, like he was definitely a big integral part of it.
Speaker 1:So it's hard to say him because of that, but at the same time I think he would be like okay, well, you know, I'll deal with it, although he might have gotten hung.
Speaker 2:Maybe we're not flipping it on the head enough. Maybe it would be like a Thomas Jefferson. You know, we just see all the writing, all the snaps. I was thinking that.
Speaker 1:But he's actually on my list of last two, and the reason for that is he seemed like a bit of a rebel helping Katushko get out of America with that fake passport. He didn't follow the rules. He wasn't a rule follower, so I think he would have been one of the last.
Speaker 2:Wasn't a rule follower, but also wasn't a fighter either.
Speaker 1:He was a. What do they call people who are smart? Renaissance man what do they call people who are smart? He was a. What do? They call people who are smart. Renaissance man. What do they call people who are smart? He was a Intellectual, an intellectual. So you have to be Other people on my list. Other people on my list were the first to kiss the crown. John Adams for sure. He would definitely be one. I think he should be. He would be number one over Alexander Hamilton, I think.
Speaker 2:You think he kisses it before him.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, I think he would have been kissing it immediately, don't you? Yeah, him and John Jay would have been over there yucking it up with King Georgie up there. I don't know what those guys were thinking. We had nothing to do with that, sorry.
Speaker 2:Oh, I know what those guys were thinking we had nothing to do with that, sorry, oh, I know who you would have. One of my last, francis Marion, would be a first to kiss. No, would not kiss it, hold on.
Speaker 1:Stop getting out of order. I got one more, first to kiss the crown. I got one more, paul Revere. Think so I do. What did he do after that ride? I think he completely wussed out after that ride. You know what I mean, mm-hmm, I'd like to think he was kind of like one of those guys who, like, dipped his toe in the revolution and then, when it got real, think he was kind of like one of those guys who, like, dipped his toe in the revolution and then, when, stuff, when it got real, he was like, oh, whoops, like I think he was just kind of like I feel like he was kind of, you know, yeah, this is fun, yeah, let's, let's, let's, you know, let's rile this up a this. And then, when it when, when it got real, I think he was like, oh, I was just kidding, that's what I think I could be completely wrong.
Speaker 2:I just was just telling you they were. They're on their way.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know what they're supposed to do.
Speaker 4:I mean they're on their way. I mean, I just saw these guys in red coats.
Speaker 1:I didn't know what to do yeah, I was telling everyone that you were coming, so that you know you could welcome them you know, I was just letting everybody Put the kettle on. Yeah, I was just announcing your arrival.
Speaker 2:Get the tea ready for you, get some biscuits and crimpets. I was just letting him know. What about Benny Arnold? That's a toss-up. That's actually a toss-up.
Speaker 2:If we go into the timeline, in the book if it was 1776, if we're going under the timeline where he just wrapped up the Quebec thing 1976, if we're going under the timeline where he just wrapped up the quebec thing obviously he'd be a wanted man by the british empire, but he might be over. I don't know if he would have been over it at that point and would have been like yeah, you know what?
Speaker 1:I mean, obviously he had, he wouldn't. The main reason why he flipped was because he didn't feel like he got his his flowers for what he had done. Um up in what was it? What was he? Was he a fort ticonderoga? Was it ticonderoga that he was at, where he was like the hero and he got hurt and then horatio gates stole his thunder horatio gates stole the show and benedict arnold was like bumming around in philadelphia, injured and didn't think people cared enough about him.
Speaker 1:That was the whole thing for that. So he wouldn't have had that animosity because of that. I don't think by 1776. But just his willingness to flip-flop like that. I mean you got to say he'd probably be a ring kisser, if you ask me A ring kisser.
Speaker 2:I don't think Washington would be one of the first, but I think he certainly would kiss it.
Speaker 1:I don't.
Speaker 2:Oh, I do. Well, Washington, I mean Washington, he loved the country that much he would say I don't want to destroy the country, I don't want to destroy it. I think he would have a Robert E Lee kind of sentiment about it.
Speaker 1:It's like we got to reconcile. Like I love, my country would have been hung immediately, so you can't really even figure.
Speaker 2:Factor him into the. What would he kiss it before he was hung would he go braveheart style let me go braveheart.
Speaker 1:I think he would definitely go braveheart style. They're literally a little braveheart.
Speaker 2:He's going to be killed either way. It's either he's going to be beheaded straight away or for mercy, or he's going to get like his bowels torn out.
Speaker 1:I thought he got his wee wee cut off. What?
Speaker 2:In Braveheart, I imagine they cut his stomach open and they started pulling out his intestines. That's what they were like mimicking. That's what like before he gets on stage, they like they have, like the, they have the midget with the puppet and he's pretending to pull things out. They're mimicking what's going to happen.
Speaker 1:I always thought it was. He got his weeby cut off because when I watched it for the first time, I must have been middle school at the time, maybe early high school. We were watching it. We're always making comments throughout a film. I were watching it and you know, um, I'm a we're always, you know, making comments throughout a film. I was watching it with my dad. My dad, you know how he screams like freedom while it's going on. You know my dad commented it was like freedom, freedom like you know, he got his.
Speaker 1:He has the wee wee cut off, so maybe that's why I always thought he got his little wee wee cut off. You sure that wasn't all that happened.
Speaker 2:I mean, I guess it was part of it oh, he gets like stretched on like a rack and then he gets. That's the last thing they do before he cut his head off. Then he'll freedom. Cut his wee wee. Would washington do that, I wonder? No, I think that's interesting to say. Who was the real man of george washington? Okay, he's gonna be killed. Does he have a freedom moment? I don't know if he kind of got drugged into it.
Speaker 2:That's a tough one you want if they, if they saw that george washington could be a linchpin if they were like we'll kiss the ring. We know we have enough patriots and hotbed people that are still going to be upset, but you are such a great unifier of men, you bring people together, you are a natural leader. Would they keep him alive under the condition that he obviously kissed the ring? Under the condition that he obviously kissed the ring, would they keep him alive to keep stuff in order immediately after the war? Or would his own people kind of come after him? Would they be like how could you surrender or how could you let us lose? Like I wonder if Washington would be worth more alive than dead, because then you make a martyr right and that's not good.
Speaker 2:That's always going to linger that's true I think, they would have just hung him like no, but then again maybe he wouldn't have been the martyr that we now know, because he wouldn't have had all that, all that time at valley forge and the crossing of the trenton, all the mythology surrounding him. Now I guess never would have happened.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, but they wouldn't really even know him that well.
Speaker 2:He would have just been the bozo that started the french and indian war I'm about to play this the timeline of that guy's life single-handedly changed the course of history, and that's why, he's the logo of our show it would have been like, oh my like, if he would have been captured.
Speaker 1:Hey, georgie, it didn't work out so well for you this time around. Huh, getting involved in the seven seven years war.
Speaker 4:Huh, how's that american dream going for you, boy? I guess the real question is I just think he wouldn't have been so here's.
Speaker 1:So here's my list. My list would have been John Hancock definitely wouldn't have kissed the ring. He's a G. Look at the ladies man. I know he would have. Yeah, he would have been. Yeah, george Washington probably would have been hung anyway. Thomas Jefferson what we talked about, I think he was more of a, he was a rule breaker. And then, I think, roger Sherman, just because he signed everything. So I don't know if he'd be able to walk back on that. He signed the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Articles of Confederation. They only wanted to do so. So kind of hard to backtrack there.
Speaker 2:I think there'd be some Southern who I don't know. But, like I was saying about the South, if they were just dealing with the South, I think you'd probably find more Southern. You think Francis Marion would have kissed the ring.
Speaker 1:No, I don't think he would have they wouldn't have found, that, they wouldn't even have found that guy I don't know.
Speaker 2:You read the book on him. Well, he wouldn't have been able to do his thing, I mean this, this, this timeline is just this butterfly effect is like making my brain melt at this point. We're going 70, 76, yeah, no, I guess he didn't even. He didn't even get a movie made after him. He wouldn't even have a movie made after him, yeah the patriot wouldn't have been a movie made after him.
Speaker 1:He wouldn't even have a movie made after him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the patriot wouldn't have been a movie revolution starring al pacino we didn't really touch on the native americans.
Speaker 1:The british posit again very heavily british influence. They say that the the native americans would have benefited because the british would have treated them nicer than we did I mean, there's probably some truth to that for for a while. For a while like, yeah, maybe they would have had their land longer, I mean, but at currently they would have still been. It would have been the same thing, maybe, maybe not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they would have been nicer than the spanish probably yeah, but all so all that's about yeah, not about what's nicer than it's also just like. But it's possible that some of those, some uh tribes might have actually formed a federation. They might have looked like, formed something that looked like a real country. You have the five civilized tribes that were in the in the south, with the cherokee, the creek, all right like they might have actually confederated into something that was like a real thing like a real well, they could have done that anyway.
Speaker 1:They never did, so what would that have changed?
Speaker 2:well they wouldn't have had this. They still had the time to do it. Not with the, not with the americans lose, winning the war, and then the Americans pushing west.
Speaker 1:They pushed west a little bit quicker, I guess, but they had all that time, they had how many they had.
Speaker 3:In between the French and Indian War when did the whites settle 1492?
Speaker 1:Is that when it was? When did Columbus sail the ocean blue?
Speaker 2:Well, Leif Erikson came 400 years before that.
Speaker 1:So they had 400 years to do it, john, or 300 years to do it, and they didn't do it. So I don't know how this would have changed anything.
Speaker 2:Well, they would need a model if they, if they've been living a certain way for thousands of years. Who would model the british would have helped them, you think if there was incentive for them to yeah, sure, if they were providing things that they wanted and they were able to trade with them. Yeah, you trade with us and we'll help you develop like a quote unquote civilized system. Sure, I'm sure that would happen, I mean probably no. I read the book?
Speaker 1:No, it probably would. You know what. You know who would have been the first to kiss the ring of the crown? John John would have been the first. If he was in this situation, he would have been like I don't know what those guys were doing. You're a frontrunner and a British what do they call it? What's like a Francophile, but for British Anglophile, yeah, you're an anglophile dude Big time. Always have been, always will be. This is tough to have this conversation with you my question is we haven't even talked about india yet do
Speaker 2:you think the world's better off? Would the world be better off today, knowing what you know throughout the course of this episode?
Speaker 1:well, here's the thing. This is what I I did have. The last thing we wanted to talk about is how would the world be today had Britain won the war? And let's just go with, let's just go with. They won the war and can like we're like the U S is still like they never like the U S never got independence. You know, we've kind of gone through right now that probably by this point we would have been independent to some extent, but say Britain always ruled. So there's a couple thoughts here that I had. I don't know if you had anything here.
Speaker 1:One of the things that we talked about on the podcast was Princess Diana's death in Paris. Maybe she would have been in America at the time of her death. Maybe her and Dodie would have been in New York City instead of Paris, and maybe the crash would have happened in the Lincoln Tunnel as opposed to whatever tunnel it was in France. And how would that have changed? You know, I think there would have been, you know, more, you know, intrigue, had that been the case, maybe a little bit more of hey, maybe it was a, maybe it was a deep state situation.
Speaker 1:You know, maybe these conspiracies might have. It might have validated some of these conspiracies because, like she was over in america, could have been maybe, maybe, maybe that would have been. Maybe that would have been the, the assassination of archduke france ferdinand version of like. Then the us would have fought for independence because maybe it would have been something where england thought that the us were the ones that killed her right. Maybe maybe james john and dan, or john james and dancing in his little fiat. Maybe he was a, a uh american spy like an american, yeah, like an america like.
Speaker 1:And then they thought and then that would have launched us into a war with britain, like for independence. Because of that, fiat sales would have probably drastically dropped in america, um, and the lincoln tunnel would be probably even harder to get through also would not probably ever be named lincoln.
Speaker 2:Would probably be named the tarleton tunnel, maybe right, maybe.
Speaker 1:Well, I guess he didn't.
Speaker 2:Cornwallis timeline cornwallis tunnel tunnel, maybe Right. Maybe, Well, I guess he didn't fight yet in his timeline.
Speaker 1:Cornwallis tunnel.
Speaker 2:Cornwallis tunnel, the Howell tunnel, churchill tunnel. Pick a commander that fought in the war and stick him on a tunnel. That's interesting. Interesting thought there right, yeah, they let things fester just for all these hundreds of years, like we just become, like we just become an outgrowth of Europe, like, just like things that just have to go beneath the surface for hundreds of years until they eventually bubble up and yeah eventually we shoot, somebody kills Princess Diana yeah, maybe the Titanic never would have sank, maybe the Titanic would have never been a thing, and then we wouldn't have that movie because people wouldn't have been coming here.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Or it would have been a bunch of convicts on the Titanic and they all would have drowned in the Arctic and no one would have cared.
Speaker 2:That's 500 fewer meals. We need to provide those guys.
Speaker 1:I got a couple other things. Comedy wouldn't be that great, just in general. British humor I'm not a fan of I don't know if you are, john, but I think it stinks. You got the UK version of the Office versus the US version of the Office. I think the US version is immensely better. I think Ricky Gervais is one of the least funny men in the world in my opinion. That's just me. I don't like British humor. I don't think it's funny. Craig Ferguson another example of somebody who's very unfunny to me. And just in general, I think comedy although comedy now is pretty in the dumps in my opinion. Since Trump became president, everyone and back in 2016, everyone's too preoccupied with that nonsense that they're not being fun, or everyone lost their imagination and now everyone's like John out there. So comedy would stink and food would stink. We wouldn't have barbecue. Think about that. We'd probably be cooking up fish and chips on the 4th of July, as opposed to cooking up some ribs with burgers and steaks.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, that wouldn't be because we wouldn't have pushed into the West to actually graze those lands with cattle. Yep, but fish is good for you it would be High in mercury.
Speaker 3:High in mercury still Well, no, they wouldn't be if we didn't industrialize as fast and there wouldn't be as much mercury in the water.
Speaker 2:Could there be Mercury 3 still? Well, no, there wouldn't be. If we didn't industrialize this fast, then there wouldn't be as much Mercury in the water. It's true, man, this butterfly is going all up and down. Yeah, I tell you, what do you think? I still think.
Speaker 4:New England would be.
Speaker 1:Now, what did your work, what did your prep work get you to about how life would be today? That was one of the assignments that you were given, so I assume you did it yeah, I think uh I think it would be fun if we both were able to bring opinions to this about royal family.
Speaker 2:I don't know if the parliament keep, keep it fun.
Speaker 1:No one cares about what parliament's like.
Speaker 2:You know we have to drive on the other side of the road. That's a good one.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I would like that it's fine.
Speaker 2:It's not the end of the world. It takes some getting used to but it's fine. But you have to if you drive manual.
Speaker 1:I was going to say I don't know if I'd be able to shift with my left arm. I'm not coordinated at all.
Speaker 2:You probably have still manual transmission. Don't the British drive a lot of stick shift too? Or is that just like continental Europeans?
Speaker 1:When you're driving a manual car and your driver's side is on the right side of the car, so your shifter's on the left Is the clutch still. You're shifting with your left hand. Is the clutch still the left pedal and are the gears in the same? Are they still like left to right or are they right to left?
Speaker 2:So it's like an Arabic setup.
Speaker 1:You're reading right to left, um I mean definitely not the same thing, but kind of how would our teeth be?
Speaker 2:dental hygiene? That's I mean we have fluoride in the water.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know. Did they ever They've improved dental stuff in England? I'm sure at this point? Yeah.
Speaker 2:But if we're just looking into stereotypes yeah, tea and crimpets, I think tea. Let's just say More tea than coffee, you think. British East India Company tea comes back online following the Boston Tea Party. We can only then still buy from India.
Speaker 1:Here's you in India again. So you think we won't be more tea than coffee.
Speaker 2:I think we'd be a little more tea-centric yeah.
Speaker 1:Then the coffee business would be struggling, which would hurt Hawaii, which would even Hawaii probably wouldn't even be a thing.
Speaker 2:Hawaii Coffee, more bananas and other fruits, I think coffee is Hawaii's biggest export.
Speaker 1:Surprisingly, I think, hawaii's economy depends on its export of tropical plants and products such as coffee, pineapples and papaya. Boom, the Observatory of Economic Complexity.
Speaker 2:We wouldn't have Italian food. We wouldn't have Italian food because the Italian unification would have happened, forcing all these Italian migrants to come over. So, yeah, we wouldn't have italian food. It'd be very bland and it would be more like puritan. I think it would be even worse than like what british food. What we think of british food now? New englanders ate some nasty stuff back, like they literally had all the fresh fish around them and they still ate like porridge. Yeah, I.
Speaker 1:I just think food would be really bad.
Speaker 4:They still like willingly decided to eat crappy food.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it would be bad, but we presumably. If they were still in India, we would have spices to make the food taste better. Sure.
Speaker 1:But it still would stink. Why do they have bland food if they, if they like their food stinks Like what's your favorite British dish?
Speaker 2:I get probably fish and chips, which is fine.
Speaker 1:I like shepherd's pie, depending on what's in it. I consider that more of an attack of an Irish influence. I would think. Guns scones, they're British, they're not French. Iones, they're british, they're not french I think they're british.
Speaker 2:When I think of scones, I think of a place of origin, united kingdom.
Speaker 1:A little clotted cream did you know shepherd's pie is supposed to be made from lamb?
Speaker 2:that makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 1:It does, but I've never had it with lamb have you, I think. I've only had it with ground beef. I'm not a huge lamb fan. I would eat it.
Speaker 2:I think there would be more lamb in our diets if we were still British, yeah.
Speaker 4:Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 1:We don't have a lot of lamb in america, that we'd be importing it, I guess, or do you think we'd have more lamb?
Speaker 2:like, I think, just lamb would be in our diet.
Speaker 1:That would, instead of maybe but I'm saying, like raising lamb, would that be more of a thing?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think so yeah, food would suck.
Speaker 1:Food would suck. Food would suck big time. Last thing I have here, john, for your last thoughts would we be better off had Britain won the War of Independence and we were still under their control? I have here, I think, quotes from you when we did our pre-show, saying I'm listening to founding fathers saying the same thing 30 years after the war. Thanks a lot, andrew jackson. What did you mean by that, do you think?
Speaker 2:that people were basically saying that we left one form of tyranny to go into. A lot of americans would have said we left one form of tyranny that was at least an ocean away and we traded it for a tyranny that was right on our backs, back door. I'm probably still saying that now. The American government, federal government and all the regulation that came with it and when I say the 30 year comment I meant very soon thereafter people were like this whole union thing isn't going to work out because we have way too different and not even 30 years, like we're talking.
Speaker 2:Like six years into Washington's presidency there were people saying we need to get out of this thing. Then the war of 1812, new England was like we got to get out of this thing. But we only remember when the South said we got to get out of this thing. Um, because they actually did Not. If you ask the radical Republicans, that's what I meant by that Andrew Jackson comment, that Andrew Jackson was about him and the force bill forcing the tariff on South Carolina and kind of leading, kind of being the the pro. What do you call it? Kind of leading, kind of being the pro, what do you call it? Kind of the beginnings of the imperial presidency and imperial government within the United States. Now we have the American empire, because empire has to grow and consume and grow and it doesn't really check itself until it wrecks itself. Would it be better, genuinely speaking, uh?
Speaker 1:you. Your answer is yes, I can answer for you. You would love it. You would love it. You'd be waking up watching watching Paddington, waking up for the royal weddings. You would just put your fancy hat on.
Speaker 4:People are already doing that. You would do it, people are already doing that.
Speaker 1:You would do it more. So you personally would be doing it. You refrain from it because it's not part of the culture. But if you were given off for that, you'd be having a little tea party with all your little friends, waking up at like 4 o'clock in the morning to watch the royal wedding I know that's what you would be doing or the funerals.
Speaker 2:Be a little more free trade for what it's worth.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I guess that's all we got here. We left it with.
Speaker 2:I guess the final thoughts is john thinks that we will be better off if we were under british rule, all things considered it's under the current situation with limited states rights that we're seeing and the use of the power of the central government, federal government over the lives of citizens across these 50 states. I think it's at least an argument that could be, had. I would rather keep my parents thousands of miles away, not know what I'm up to, than if they're right next door.
Speaker 1:All right, there you go. Final thoughts from John.
Speaker 2:Um, that's all we have Hope you guys enjoyed this, we think.
Speaker 1:I think that went pretty well. It was pretty fun. Um, it was a nice little test to do this with something that we might be more familiar with, and then maybe we can go into some other options here of other what-ifs. One of my favorite what-ifs is if the Beatles never formed, apparently Iggy Pop would have been a very popular band. Iggy Pop and the Stooges, according to these Brits that wrote this magazine. So not quite sure why. Iggy Pop and the Stooges, according to these Brits that wrote this magazine. So not quite sure why Iggy Pop would have benefited the most from the Beatles never forming. But hey, I'm sure he's reading this thing. Being like man, I am so close.
Speaker 3:I guess we know what he's doing if he gets a time machine because he's going back to Liverpool and in 1959 dude, that would be.
Speaker 4:There's a move, there's a Ted and there's a, there's a Bill, and because he's going back to Liverpool in 1959.
Speaker 1:Dude, that would be. There's a move. There's a Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure with Iggy Pop. They all, the three of them. Hey, iggy, where do you want to go? To Liverpool, liverpool.
Speaker 2:Oh cool, because we're supposed to go back to like 1776 to make the British win the war. But yeah sure, we'll just go with you instead, so you can become more popular.
Speaker 1:I think it was a good test. I think it was fun.
Speaker 2:I liked it, I enjoyed.
Speaker 1:I hope our fans enjoyed it too and I guess, make sure you like, share and subscribe and shoot us a note over at nailinghistorypod at gmailcom or send us a text message. Just click that link. In the description it says send us a text message. You click that link. Don't delete anything. That auto Something's going to auto-populate into the text box. Don't delete it. Just start typing from there and then we'll get your text.
Speaker 2:Give us a what-if scenario.
Speaker 1:Or let us know if you think we'd be better off, or what did we miss? What do you think? What's a different butterfly that could have been an effect? Name another butterfly that we missed. Or if you think you'd be better off, or a what if scenario that you'd like us to cover, and if it's in this magazine or whatever you want to call this thing that we have, we might do it. If it's not, it might be tough.
Speaker 2:We look forward to hearing from you guys. Pins and needles, please text us, but until then, stay curious let us know what you want to hear, just let us know, we'll talk.
Speaker 4:I got hairy legs. Come on, man, and we say bye, bye.