141: The American Revolution Within The Whimsical World of Ken Burns, Pt. 2

A near-collapse on Long Island. A fog that saves an army. A midnight gamble across black water that shocks a continent. We trace the most volatile stretch of the American Revolution—when Washington loses New York, wins at Trenton, and keeps the fragile cause alive long enough for Saratoga to change everything.

We start with the practical mess behind the Declaration’s arrival in Britain before dropping into the tactical blunder at Jamaica Pass and the miraculous evacuation across the East River. From the retreat up Manhattan to the dash over the Hudson, the army survives on nerve and luck. Morale craters, civilians bend with occupation, and commanders feud—then Washington rolls the dice on a winter crossing and crushes the Hessians at Trenton, earning time, recruits, and respect.

Zooming out, we track dueling British strategies: Burgoyne’s grand descent from Canada to Albany versus Howe’s fixation on Philadelphia. Ticonderoga falls when British guns crown the heights Kosciuszko warned about, but the northern front rallies at Saratoga—Gates in command, Arnold aflame, and American earthworks turning ground into a weapon. While Philadelphia falls after Brandywine and Paoli, Saratoga’s surrender echoes overseas, giving Franklin the leverage he needs to pull France off the sidelines. The season ends with Washington steering his worn army toward Valley Forge and a new phase built on training, inoculation, and endurance.

If you want a clear, human look at how the Revolution survived its hardest months—tactics, politics, and the uneasy line between luck and judgment—this one’s for you. Listen, share with a history-loving friend, and tell us: which moment swung the war—Trenton’s audacity or Saratoga’s alliance? And if you’re new here, follow the show, rate it, and leave a review to help others find the story.

Transcript

Cold Open, Coffee, And Google Drama

SPEAKER_02 0:13

All right, fans, we're back to continue our talk on the Ken Burns documentary film, The American Revolution. We took a bit of a break, rejuvenated. I turned the heat on in my apartment. It was a little cold. It was a brisk 58 degrees in here. We're in the throes of winter. We're trying to mimic. Kind of feeling like we're in Valley Forge. Valley Forge, Morristown, Quebec. Yeah. Felt that way. John was, I think the cold was getting to John a little bit. Yep, so I got it. We rejuvenated. Got a fresh cup of Joe. Fresh cup of. How is it? Did you try it? Put some hair on your n with that stuff. Seattle's best. Is it the best that Seattle's got? I think so. It's no Starbucks. So before we get back into here, just a little bit of banter before we get back in since it's a new episode. I wanted to let the fans know we did get access back to our Google account. I don't know. Have I updated the fans on that? Did I? I think I did, right? Yeah. No explanation given as to why we lost it, but we got it back. And John's kind of made an interesting purchase that I found a little odd. Why what did you what did you just buy, John? I bought a new Chromebook. That is made by Acer? Yeah. Powered by uh Chrome OS? You know what I'm getting to. Why are you going deeper into the belly of the beast? After all that talk, fans, we had all that talk about how Google is scaring us, gonna delete. Now you they just erased our email address out of nowhere, and you're gonna put all of your personal information on one of their computers? Why would you do that? In their cloud, too. And I got Gemini for free. They gave me Gemini for a year premium. Yeah, do you wonder why? So now I'm not even using ChatGPT anymore. I'm using Google's AI generative models to make all my pictures. Which I don't know, which is worse. You got a couple laughs out of a few of them. I'm just saying, as far as surveillance. Uh good point. Well, nothing to hide. Nothing to hide. I needed a new one. My screen was kind of messed up for a while. I got a Black Friday deal. Went for it. So we're caffeinated up. John's got his Google Chromebook opened up. I refuse to let him connect to my internet. I will not let him do that in my apartment. Um, and uh we are caffeinated up. We've left off. Where did we leave off? The Declaration of Independence was signed. Declaration of Independence was signed. John just John's amped up. He listened to a couple Ken Burns clips to get fired up. The Patriots uh foray into Canada did not go so well. Yes. They're on the way back south. Uh the British are really upset, and they send the Navy over. They're sending the British Navy over. Now they're like, this is this is real. This is real. July of 1776. Just imagine yourself opening up somebody get picking getting the mail, getting picking up the mail, hit checking in your mailbox, and then you just open up like, what's this? Oh, something from the uh something from the colonies. What do they have to say? Any new news? New news is good news. Bad press is good press. That would have been a quite George III would have had quite the uh quite the breakfast that morning. I guess that's also a point that we didn't really talk about. George III had just gotten like pretty soon around when this all happened, George III took over the crown, the throne, no? From his father, yeah. Yeah. George II was in power during the French and Indian War, the Seven Years' War. He came in in the 1760s. So he's fr so it's a it's also a similar situation where when you have that change in power, it also adds a little bit of like, wait, they're taking all of our freedoms away, and this new young kid thinks he, you know. Well, initially they used to go to him. They before the before they separated, they were pleading to the king to speak on their behalf to Parliament. Because Parliament was the one passing these the taxes and all that, and they were basically pleading to the king, hey, you can defend us. Please. Your honor and your rights, your need to defend your colonists, your loyal colonists, do it. Who did they address the Declaration of Independence to? Like, did they say Dear George, or did they say, or did they just start coming out and saying it right off the bat? You know, did they say like to whom it may concern, or like did they say dear, like I said, like Dear George to whom it may concern? Was it Dear John letter? It was a dear John letter. It kind of was a little bit, no. It was directed primarily to King George III at this point, yeah. But how what were the how did it was it, how was it addressed? Like what like you know, they they have the document. Well, and I guess the document that they have is America's copy, right? Like, I wonder whatever happened to the copy that got sent to King George. I guess he tore it up. Like, what did he do with it? Like, what would you do with it if you got that? I probably wouldn't frame it. Probably would be the first thing to do. Or unless I needed a laugh every morning. Just have that in your sitting in your or something like maybe to him. You think he used it as TP? This is what it's worth. And then, like, I wish they would have kept like the envelope that they sent it in. Like, wouldn't it be funny to have like, oh, uh King George, Buckingham Palace, England? Like, however, it was addressed. It still exists, it's in the UK's National Archives in Kew. Yeah. Wow. The official signed parchment copy is on display at the National Archives in DC. So the actual one that King George read is is uh see now that would be something I'd be more interested in seeing, I think. What they actually, what he actually the tears wetted by his tears when he read that. It arrived in England in mid-7 July 76 and was confiscated by British officials. Copies of this broadside are now held by the National Archives in Q London and West Sussex records. Broadside, is that what they call it? They were they were broadsided by this? A Dunlap broadside, whatever that yeah. The official signed copy of the declaration is on display at the National Archives of DC. This version was ordered by Congress on July 19th, signed by the delegates on August 2nd. What? Well, he got the copy. He got the copy before the one that they ended up signing. That's on the national. The official copy is actually still in, is in DC. That's the one that was signed in August of 76. August? Yeah. Signed by delegates primarily. What's all this July 4th talk? They got him the hot press audience off the press. First draft. He sent it to send it to the king. Let him chew on that. What if they changed it? Like he got re he read one thing and is operating on one set of like rules, and then the Americans are operating on another pretense. Yeah, like what smart military move. Like, what if they what they sent King George was like way nicer? Or what if it was like, yeah, all men, hey, listen, George, we know all men aren't created equal, right? A lot of air quotes. Like equal. All men created equal. Listen. Hap George, let's not get out of let's not get out of hand here. I'm not saying all men are created equal, but what I'm saying is the rich people, all us riches, all the riches, we're all equal, right? So leave us alone. We're all one of you. We're one of you. George. I would have been imagine he was like taking a poop and someone, hey George, got some mail for you here. Broadsided? Did the English think that they were broadsided by this? No, that's with the name of the actual paperwork that the what it was printed on, a Dunlap broadside. Oh. I thought it's like a is that where the phrase comes from? Being broadsided? I think that's more related to the mil the Navy. I think that's a naval. Oh no, I think it has to do with I think it I think it has to do with the Declaration of Independence. Fans, you heard it here first. When you tell someone you were broadsided by something, it means that you were that it's it's derived from King George taking a poop on the toilet, getting delivered the Declaration of Independence on a broadside parchment. He was the first one to read it and didn't say anything to Parliament until October. See, like this on Halloween of all days, October 31st. I wonder if he showed up in Parliament wearing that. Dressed up like John Hancock. It's Halloween. You're gonna love this one too. Love this trick. See, like, why wasn't this kind of stuff covered in the documentary? This is why we need an ailing history. It was read, the first public reading in America was done on July 8th. King George didn't get his hands on it until mid-July. Parliament, the king's formal public response came months later when he addressed Parliament on October 31st, 1770. Do you think they were pissed? After the document was published in the London Gazette on August 10th. Two and a half months went by. Wait, so it was published. So people knew about it, but he didn't say anything for two and a half months about it. Could you imagine? What's he stewing on? What was he what took him so long? He was just trying to figure out, you know, what side to take. He probably thought there was still a chance for them to come back. Thought they were bluffing. You think? Well, they didn't do much to help that. I think he was dumbfounded. He was broadsided. Oh, Georgie. Oh man. So that's where that's where we sit that's where we sit in the time of America. So when he was doing that, that's when it started popping off in Long Island. So all this is happening. Washington has moved down from New England to New York. And we're in episode three. Now let me say, episode three, the title is called. The times that trimensols. Synopsis. Washington abandons New York City and flees across New Jersey before attacking Trenton. That was after the fact. That's when I was. Well, that's it's a one-sentence IMDB summary. Oh. So they're preparing for the British Navy to come. In New York. New York. New York Harbor is the Boston Harbor's old yesterday's news. It starts moving south. Right. It's in New York. And I don't know if that's because of the Hudson's. Like they've kind of like, we got the Hudson separated. We have the Hudson. It was probably the most strategic asset at that point. They're still trying to get the Hudson so that they can separate the Bozos in New England from the from the middle states. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

And it kicks off at the Battle of Long Island. Long Island, New York. You know, that's that little tail that comes off of Manhattan. Have you ever been to Long Island?

SPEAKER_02 12:49

Yes, Massapequa.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Really?

SPEAKER_02 12:52

I had friends there from college who live there. Is it nice? It's like where suburbia was invented in America. Oh, really? Pretty much.

SPEAKER_03 13:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Um I've never been. What's the town names? Massapequa, Montauk. That's the Hamptons. Wontau. The Wanta had a friend from Wontaw, Massapequa, Belmore. You don't know anyone from the Hamptons. My Hero Sandwiches. What's his name talks about My Hero? My friend talked about My Hero a lot. Tim Dylan mentioned them on one of his podcasts. Apparently they make the best chicken cutlet sandwich.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

There goes my hero. Is that what the song's about, you think? Yes. Broadsided.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

So Long Island opens up. Well, first of all, the episode opens up with the quote that made me the most mad in the entire series. And maybe maybe it didn't make you as mad, but fans, this is how episode three opens up with um Maya Joe Sanov Josenoff. Maya Yosanoff. The quote is The United States came out of violence. My subtext is no sh grow up, might as well spit on the graves of the soldiers who fought it. Back to her quote. In other words, we need to bastardize these people and show their true colors of how it came the independence was brought on by bloodshed, not you know, diplomacy. But I would say it's a perfect mixture of the two. You can't have one and not the other. Or not expect something to happen, yeah. So you can't tell me that these that these men meeting in Philadelphia and like standing up to the British government wasn't like a brave thing to do. In comparison to the fighting. I'm saying in you it's both. It's both. I wouldn't even say it's brave. I would say they would say it's necessary. Bravery was probably the secondary construct, secondary thing of importance to those people doing it. It's like we have to do this. It's not a matter of being brave or what shit what's right or wrong. It's it's good for them.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

I think you can't have one without the other.

Escape To Manhattan And Across The Hudson

Forts, Corbin, And The Hessians Press In

Crossing The Delaware And Trenton’s Shock

Morristown Winter And Greenwood’s Tale

Episode Four: French Hopes And Franklin’s Pitch

SPEAKER_02 15:30

I get that, but I just think it's again funny. It's a stupid way to say it's a stupid thing to say. It's a war. No it was violent. It's not like it was any more violent than most than other wars. All up and down all day. Well, I think they love the French Revolution because and I did read some commentary too. They really made like going back a couple episodes, they really made the New England people seem like just like uneducated, rough, like rebels, you know, like all the when the Tea Party was going on, tarring and feathering the tax guy. Yeah. You know, they kind of made him seem like just real, like barbaric, like barbaric. Like they're kind of trying to paint this picture that like the United States or the Patriots, you know, you got the Patriots and you got the loyalists. No. You got the Patriots, you got the Red Coats, the Tories. The Tories are the loyalists. But anyway, the Patriots were like an uneducated, like, violent mob, is what how they treated it, which is partly the case, but I also think that they were educated enough to understand. If they weren't educated, they wouldn't have they would have maybe just fell in line. Well, yeah. Well, I think it's it's it's well known that well, the colonies in general had a higher literacy than other colonies in the English Empire anywhere in the world, probably. New England in particular had the highest level of literacy. Possibly in the world at that time. Yeah. Going down like the So they weren't dealing, you're not deal they're not dealing with a bunch of like idiots. Yeah, which is kind of how it was painted to some extent. And it can you can kind of work it in both ways. You can make it seem make you're making it seem more impressive of what they did, you know, by saying like this was a bunch of uneducated whatever, like rising up and whatever. But you can also see as like these weren't great men who were trying to stand up for independence or whatever. These were men who were just mob mentality anarchists. Yeah. That was one side of it for like those rebel rallies, but then the the ones that had the wealth and the means were painted as slave owners. Slave owners that wanted to keep what they had. Yeah. And the British were moving in towards a more like call liberal. They were like becoming more, they were seen as more of the progressive group in the at that time period, I think, in comparison to the conservative wanting to maintain the status quo. Yeah. Virginia Virginians. So yeah, so it opened up to my in my opinion, it opened up to like, oh, okay, the Declaration of Independence, great, you know, that's nice, but you know, it wasn't, you know, let's let's let's not all cutesy dootsy, oh let's eat hot dogs 200 years from now and play the you know, played cards. Yeah, right, and like put George Washington up on this pedestal. But I mean, in reality, they were like men of their time and great men, and they all came together when they did they all looked past each other's individual differences to come together for a common cause. I think. Yeah. And I think that's it because it was on by a sous string, it was holding on by a thread. There were times. Yeah. And that's just impressive to me that they were all able to come together. That's what's so that's how it's romanticized, is like just a group of people who had nothing in common got together for a common goal. But you know, you gotta shove the the violence into it, which I mean there obviously was, right? And I think even just in general, well, I guess you can't really say it's it's interesting to think about war in terms of the violence that you have, because like, you know, they talk about in the in the Revolutionary War, it was a lot of bayonet fighting. That was like kind of the the fighting of the time was like mostly bayonet, so it's like close combat, stabbing looking somebody in their eyes when you're freaking stabbing somebody. I mean, that's that's that's intense. These are these are intense, bloody battles, and then you fast forward to like the Civil War is like artillery's big, I think, you know, and you're getting a lot of like the mass casualties with that. Then you fast forward to like World War One, World War II, where you're just like dropping. Bombs, yeah. Yeah, but like you're just dropping bombs like no like over towns and like decimating villages. And like every so every war is something different. Then you look at like present-day wars where like you can freaking have a drone shot of like one individual person, and like, well, what kind of violence are like you know, is that the intimacy of violence has changed over the centuries, yeah. But like the intimacy, but it's like what's more violent being able to do somebody walking down the street and getting vaporized without even knowing it, or like you know, this where like it's the soldiers killing each other, you know. You I don't know, it's I think you're supposed to you're left to mean thing like you can't feel it it's left to not feel as bad if it's gamification, it's been gamified a lot now. What do you mean? Like people being able to call a Joan strike. I think by it being less intimate now, the people don't have to have the same emotional attachment to violence that they used to. You stab someone in the heart, you're just like that guy probably had a wife, probably had kids, and you're watching my age or his young man. It could have been his brother, as we've been reminded many times in this documentary, could have been your brother. Yeah. It was a civil war. Became a civil war. I don't like that phrase. Well, the civil well, well, because the war the phrase for the American Civil War has been bastardized. It's not a true war. But I remember our bozo, uh, our bozo uh tour guide at the American the Museum of the American Revolution also said that it was like a when he when he started hitting the Southern Theater, he's like, Yeah, a lot of people say this is more of a civil war at this point in the game. In the South, yeah. Well, some of the Patriots and Loyalists were really the violence between them was yeah, pretty bad. But at that point, I don't know, they're all also five years into the war. I mean, you're either gonna be a full-on raging loyalist or a patriot. Yeah, at this point, if you hung on for that long. Seems like the loyalists played pretty dirty though, too. Sure did. So let's go to Long Island, Sean. We're on Long Island. George Washington's there. George Washington's there. The birthplace of suburbia. Armies on Brooklyn Heights, British Navy's coming into New York Harbor. And he leaves open the Jamaica Pass. Game over. You said you were gonna take this one. It's kind of so what I from what I remember, I didn't take many notes on this one, but what from what I remember is um George Washington made a very big grave flaw in his fortification of the area. There were three passes that the British could have taken from New York Harbor through Long Island from south to north through Long Island to then ultimately s lay siege onto New York. And George Washington fortified two of them, and he didn't fortify the Jamaican Pass. Which was the furthest east of the passage. Which is kind of like the furthest from where the British ships were. I guess he figured, like, we'll just stop them here, they're not gonna make their way over there. And then the British kind of knew that they scoped it out, they saw that, and they went around. They went around and outflanked his arm his army position in the center, and then they basically just had to hightail it up to Brooklyn Heights, try to cross the water, which was impressive. That was so basically they routed them on Long Island itself. The Americans had to get over to Manhattan, otherwise they were going to be pinned in and war could have ended right then. And then overnight they basically managed to do a kind of a preliminary to the crossing of the Delaware. They crossed the East River over into Manhattan. Was it 4,000 people, they said? Going back and forth, back and forth. Somehow the British weren't alerted to it. And in the morning, yeah, all the Americans were over in Manhattan. So then they were protected and they were back, they were able to then retreat more. They kept retreating up Manhattan. There was a big battle in Harlem? Not Harlem, before on Biscoy Bay. What was it? The Bay There was another big engagement from Long Island. And so then, yeah, basically Washington's troops made their way up Manhattan. The general of the British was a William William Howe. And he kind of just drug his feet a little bit, didn't move too quickly. Um the British. Kind of a yeah. And basically, that eventually the British took New York for that reason. They basically held it until the end of the war. Yeah. They felt as though I kind of allude to this too. The the it seemed it seemed like the difference from in this war from like previous wars that that Britain was used to fighting, there was individual. Like if you took the capital of a of a country, you won the war. But I think in the colonies, there really for one, there wasn't a capital, right? So like Philadelphia, Philadelphia kind of was, and they and they do end up taking Philadelphia, but it didn't matter as much because there was no capital, right? So there was no there was no strategic city to like take where you would say, like, we've taken it, surrender. Yeah. Well, the power structures, they weren't like in Europe where the power structures centered in a Paris where they centered in a London. Yeah. They were far more dispersed and decentralized, just in how it developed. Yeah. So I think I think that's kind of where the the delay, like the, you know, oh, we have New York. I feel like there might have been a sense of like we won the war. We're gonna win the war. There's no way they're gonna beat us if we don't have New York. And then they just kept taking that mindset to each port town down the coast from there, fill it to Philadelphia, to Charleston, to Savannah. They just they the British won the coastal game. If the colonies were only really, you know, 10 miles in from the water, from the ocean, yeah, I think the war would have turned out differently. But because, you know, so many of these the fighting happened in the interior, like once the British were on the interior, like that's when the Americans were shining at their bows, and they did a lot of guerrilla tactics and yeah, it was similar to like any other wars that you hear of where it's like terrain that you're not used to, or the you know, the you're fighting you're fighting somebody who knows Lamp. Vietnam's probably the best example of that. Yeah. Of modern day. But yeah, so they so they took New York, and then that was that was the end of New York for the whole time. Yeah. Right? They crossed over Fort what Fort Lee. Was it Fort Lee? So then they got over, so they fled up to Manhattan, and then where the George Broshington Bridge is today is basically where he had to do another retreat over the Hudson River, and that took them from Fort Washington over to Fort Lee in New Jersey, and that's where our girl, what's her name showed up on the scene. The the um not Molly Pitcher, right? The other woman who got who who it's the the they they made they make a point. We talked about this. She was the first woman to get um Margaret Corbyn. She was the first woman to get um disability from the army, but it was like not it was like a tenth of what the men have gotten. Ken Burns definitely made a point of that, definitely said that. She she took over, her husband died, her husband got killed, like uh manning it, manning it artillery, and then she took over. And she got shot in the arm. I mean, it's yeah, she got got owned. Yeah, and she kept going. Yeah, she was tough. Good for her. So then yeah, they ended up in New Jersey, and they basically gave the British the slip twice out of New York, like once. But then the Hesh, she had the Hessians climb up the side of Fort Lee, and that sounded pretty impressive. Yeah, yeah, they yeah, they thought that it could have never been climbed, right? Yeah. Yeah. So then they were high tailing it. They ended up in Hackensack area. British were still. So the so at this point, the uh the reeling. But the British Brit England's kicking names and taking butt. It's the Empire Strikes Back episode, yeah. Like what do you mean? Like the British send their the big guns, yeah, the ships, the troops. And nothing's going right for the the Continental Army depleted, and now they're headed down to New Jersey. They're in New Jersey. Well, Pennsylvania, right? Not yet. They don't move into Pennsylvania and brandy wine until after Hal leaves New York. Well, they have to be in Pennsylvania in order to cross the Delaware Bay into Trenton. Well, they're in New Jersey. Yes. They're in like the New Jersey, Pennsylvania area. Yeah. Kind of near the water Pennsylvania water gap. Yeah, Delaware, Delaware water gap. And then the Hessians are chasing them. And then one night, December of 1776. December 25th of 1770. So it's cold, the winter, everyone's bummed out. And I think Washington's like, oh, we need a win. We need a W. Keepsy footing around. I think he just was like, we won. I think was the general thing. It's like we're just dominating them. They slog through Blizzard Vision, Nathaniel Green, and John Sullivan put it to the Hessians. Your notes are way lamer than mine. They put it to them. That's what that's what Gemini said. Let me just have my actual notes. They didn't do great. Oh, our friend Charles Lee. He gets picked up by the British at a bar. Guy has to get his whistle wet. Is that what they call it? That's what I'm calling it. Get his whistle wet. He got busted out of bar in Baskin Ridge. And Lee is like a high commanding officer of the. He thought he outranked Washington. Like he saw himself as like at least an equal to Washington, if not a superior. Oh yeah. They were beefing. Lee and Washington were, they were not them boys. They would be like, let me think. Who would that be like? Ooh, I guess. What would be a good comparison? I'm thinking of sports. Oh, and they said the British were really not nice to the New Jersey residents. I also have here 3,000 New Jersey residents sold out for a full pardon from the British. Yeah, they I think the the I feel like New Jersey fell fairly quickly into British. I mean the war could have ended in December of 1776. But Washington ended up receiving reinforcements and decided to recross the Delaware River to stick it to the Hessians on Christmas. Yeah, I think this was more of a play to honestly, I think he knew that he needed a win. And this was I always felt as though this was, you know, I guess to miss Maya Joseph's point, I always felt that this was a bit barbaric. Christmas Day, dude. Those German guys. Those German guys having fun. I always envisioned them like drinking some beer, relaxing, day off, and George has to come in and ruin their day off. They were hired hands. Maybe they didn't want to be there. I don't know. They were kind of they were painted as like very scary people. Like these guys, these Germans were like they were the savages. They are those of Europe. The big hats were supposed to make them look taller. Those goofy little hats with the ball on top. They were scary and they were barbaric. They were gangbanging and and uh they didn't see it coming. They were hanging in Trent, and Nathaniel Green and John Sullivan just crushed them. Yeah, well they didn't yeah, they didn't see it coming because it was Christmas Day, which I guess, hey, you know, that how else are you gonna win a war like this, right? Yep. But they said the POWs were treated pretty well and they were seen as victims of the British tyranny. And many of them ended up becoming US citizens and brought their families over eventually. So they actually you you think they felt bad, like uh you guys are you guys are no they said that in the thing. They were like, there was might have been like part of the reason why Washington wasn't as harsh to them was because it's like these guys are just fighting because they're they themselves are living under tyranny in Germany, their own princes and dukes are sending them over here to fight a war that they're not just to get in good graces with the British. Well to make money for their their king, like they're fighting the battles they're for somebody else, not for their own selves. That's what they said in the document. I don't know if that would be the reason, but but then I have your Washington's army became respectable after this fight. Yeah, it was a big turn turning point. But the New Englanders still wanted to bail, and he begged them to stay. Half of the troops went home, and the other half agreed to stay on for another six weeks. They were like not getting paid. Yeah, like one year at a time. I have in here this is where I may have uh messed uh the timeline a little bit and learned a little bit more. I always thought that they went from Trenton to Valley Forge.

unknown 34:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

I think a lot of people may think that. Why do you think how would that have happened? They crossed the river, beat up the Hessians, beat up the cross back, and then just went to Valley Forging.

unknown 34:12

Okay.

Burgoyne’s Plan Versus Howe’s Philadelphia Fixation

Ticonderoga Falls And Kosciuszko’s High Ground

SPEAKER_02 34:13

I don't I guess I just always thought that that's it was the winter, there was one winter, you know, you don't really think. So I have in here ended after Trenton no tease for Valley Forge question mark. And then I think my one of my first notes for uh oh then I have like my fourth note of the following episode, episode four. Here we go, Valley Forge is time to shine. Oh, wait, I guess I'm a year early. We're in 1777, and that was 1778. So yeah, it was way off of my timeline for that. But I have that, and then I have also, we're halfway through at this point when I wrote this, we're halfway through episode three, and not one mention of Alexander Hamilton at all. I don't know when he became his aide de comp. But even just in general, though, he was a player, wasn't he? Or not really, too young? Still quite young. I thought he was like a player in the in the Continental Congress or something, or have to re-watch um March of 1777 is when he became Washington's aide de camp with the rank of lieutenant colonel. So I didn't join his staff until then. Yeah, but I mean I feel like he was well, whatever. So episode three basically ends at the Battle of Trenton, right? And then they ended up camping in Morristown, New Jersey, Washington's troops. That's so that was the the Valley Forge that was the val that was the Valley Forge before Valley Forge. And they said it was just as bad as Valley Forge, if not worse. Did they say that was the worst winter? That might have been that might have been the following winter. They camped, he wintered in Morristown twice. Yeah, I think it was the winter after Valley Forge, not to get ahead of ourselves, was like the worst winter ever. Where like you could walk across the Hudson or something crazy. The the New York Harbor froze. Yeah. I think that was the that was the winter of 78 to 69. I think. But I mean it seems like I don't know, is global warming real people? I who knows, but it seems like winter was way worse back then, doesn't it? 79 to 80 was the worst winter of the Revolutionary War. Okay. And the Continental Army was encamped at Jockey Hollow in Morristown. So he so after Trenton, they end up camping, they end up pushing the British back enough. They end up camping in Morristown. British fall back into New York. Sure. Ten line. And then so that ends. I've got Greenwood's clothes baked in oven and was bathed in sulfur to kill lice. Oh, Johnny Greenwood? Dude, that's the thing. There was this running thing, this whole thing, and you you learn pick a guy to like follow. Yeah, but you learn about the guy. That was he was one of the most interesting people I've ever met. And like, I guess we could talk about this now. Yeah. You remember they they're following this guy, he's from Maine, I think, or New Hampshire. He's from like northern New England somewhere. And it's a kid, and he joins and he's a fifer. Right. Right? And he was a he was at Lexington and Concord, I think. He was in the Quebec campaign. I think he was up with he's like he finds himself, he's like, he's kind of like this like Forrest Gump type character, right? Where he like finds his way into like all of these different battles, then he winds up being on a ship, a merchant ship. Let me see. I got I got the notes here of this guy. Um episode five. Yeah. This John Greenwood guy. John John Greenwood. So then he went from a fife to a privateer, like working on the like crushing British the British Navy. Then he ends up being a dentist and was Washington's dentist who gave him those crazy dentures. Made of like ivory and all kinds of crap. So like I don't know how true it is, but this guy, like, I mean, he's like a forest gump type character, right? Like where he just always kind of wound up in the until he like goes home and then like, yeah. I think what I the note I just read of him going home was like him ending. Like that was his end of the story. No, because then he signs up. Then he signs up to be a privateer and like starts like fing up boats, British ships, like when the like in the later on in the in the uh Southern campaign. Are you thinking of sure? I'm almost Wikipedia right now. Doesn't go into it had a rank of Pfeiffer. That was that's what Ken Burns told me, I'm pretty sure. I think he's he exited the scene when he went home after after Trenton. John Greenwood dentist. Oh man, he looks like a goofball. His father basically took his clothes because he was covered in lice, baked them in an oven, and he doused them in sulfur to kill the lice from his body. And then Joseph Plum Martin became the guy that they started talking about all over the place. I think you're wrong here, dude. The Joseph Plum Martin Trail in Valley Forge was just walking on that the other day. Yeah, I run that. That's the five mile loop, right? John Greenwood was a privateer in the revolutionary road serving on several privateering ships after his time in the Continental Army. He first Joined a privateer ship called the Cumberland after leaving the army in 1776 and served on privateering vessels throughout the war, being captured multiple times. His second establishment, after his second enlistment ended in 1776, he joined the crew of the privateer ship Cumberland. He served on several more privateering ships, including the Tartar, and was captured three more times before the war ended. So the guy was he was all over the place. I think I think my nose were so disjointed about him. I couldn't keep track. Guy was all over. He's like a Forrest Gump type guy. Yep. So that's episode that was episode three. Good but not great. You kept texting me. Matt got out ahead of me a little bit watching these. And he ended up on episode four before I did. And he he told me to hold on to my I just I hold on to my whiskers. I just wanted to I just want and I want the fans to know too. Wait for episode four. Episode four is the like is the best episode by a mile. No? Give give Ken Burns six hours of your time initially. I mean, episode I mean the first two episodes are rough. I mean, I don't know. I guess once they get into the fighting and the battles and the movements of the troops, like I said, it gets more it gets more interesting. Like when you fe see like what's happening in the fields. Yeah, and this is this is the thick of it. I mean, this is like this is it opens up, episode four opens up talking about getting the French involved in the war. My quotes are Benny Franklin knew there was no chance without France. He promised French minister Virgens that if France and Spain joined America, the Brits would be crushed. Virgens said, nah. Franklin knew at that point that America needed a big W, some foreshadowing. Foreshadowing, which Yes, okay. So um you know who else gets introduced in episode four? Oh little Iris DeRode talk. Oh you did like, yeah. Total babe. Total babe. I think it's objectively if we could objectively say between her and Vinny Brown. Vin Brown with the with the Greg dreadlock. Iris De Rode, she's got like a very small hint of French accent. She's Dutch. Oh, is she? Yeah. Well, same thing, right? Okay, sure. Babe. Just nice, blonde, haired, blue-eyed. Gets really excited talking about history. But she's definitely French. She's a French, she's a French fan. Um, I do have a note here. John found out she is from UVA. So we were wondering maybe she went to Miller's. You think she ever went to Miller's burning up there? Bought a pack of smokes up there and in Miller's, shooting some billiards. Little PBR. Just like there at the bar, just like playing pool, just like ring just the ringer at the pool table, just talking history. Talking talking French movements, French dragons. French Revolution, you know. That'd be pretty cool. Oh, would you go then? That'd be pretty cool. That'd be pretty cool. She seemed cool. She hustled some people for sure and could like silly from the boys. She seemed cool. She was beautiful. She has a Twitter account. I should follow her for the nailing history, right? Yeah. I will. We should get an interview. I love you.

unknown 43:35

Oh my god.

Saratoga Rises While Howe Marches On Philly

Brandywine Loss, Paoli Night Attack, Germantown

Occupied Philadelphia And Shifting Civilians

SPEAKER_02 43:37

That's a dream. Dream guest. Dream guest. Um, I have my first note in episode four because I was struggling a little bit. Episode four, starting this one. God, two hours is so long. Come on, KB. Make it 12 one-hour episodes. This is 2025. No one has an attention span. Two hour long episodes is absurd. And I don't know why he has to do it that way. Again, like it's not for I get it, it's not for entertainment, blah, blah, blah. But like two hour long, and like you don't want to stop in the I don't know. Like, I had a hard time stopping in the middle. I would just fall asleep and then have to catch up where I was. Like, I never on purpose said, I'm gonna stop here. They had a couple like obvious cutscenes where they would like go black, fade to black and then fade back in. I tried to pause at those points if I was getting tired. Yeah. Um where are we? January 1776. Iris the Road. Just Irish the Road. So he knocked us off the rails. Knocked us off the rails. Yeah. Googler. I R I S Space D-E Space R-O-D-E. So here we got so a lot of thick of it in the New Jersey's happening. So before he winters, before Washington ended up winter eating in Morristown, a little more going on. Trenton. They pick up Trenton. The British fall back on Princeton. And he gives them Washington gives the slip. He's basically able to do like a movement up into Princeton. And the Cornwallis didn't know what he was doing. And the Americans get another big dub, get a get a win there? Where? At Princeton. I don't have that written down here. The Americans surprise the Brits, though Hugh Mercer is killed. Washington, well not Napoleon, holds it all together. So they end up moving into winter quarters, and it's at this winter quarters in Morristown that finally Washington gets the memo and he says, Alright, I'll take the vax. You got me. We're all going to be able to do that. I want my guys to go. We want my girls to go out the bar. Charles Lee's been always begging to go out. We're going to get them all vaxxed. Single most important I've been here, my quote in my notes. Single, quote, single most important military decision that Washington made throughout the war. Was having them having his troop in troops inoculated. I missed that one. I missed, I kind of, I'll be honest, the the whole vaxing uh situation like comparison didn't really didn't really hit me. I I miss that. So I'm glad you picked up on that. That's pretty funny. Next thing here, I have the British plan. So now the now the Brits are like kind of stressing out. Like they came in with a big punch, kicked Washington out of New York, but obviously he's holding his own. Yeah, and they're they got they got denied entrance to Philadelphia, basically. So foreign minister Lord George Germain is stressing out big time because the war is dragging on. They're losing, probably like the British public's probably like, why are we still doing this? We shouldn't be smoking them. General George Burgoyne, hot shot, tough guy, basically convinces Germain to let him lead an army from Canada to Albany. So he wants to reverse, you know, what Arnold tried doing the year before, taking his troops down the Hudson. Also, subcontext fans, just imagine a Polish engineer while while all this is silently reaching the shores of Philadelphia in the Delaware River. Going and meet Ben Franklin. Going to meet Ben Franklin, take an engineer's test. That's a little subcontext. What can I do here? How can I help? Teaser. So Burgoyne and they come up with a this three-headed army approach. They basically, Burgoyne wants to lead an army down from Canada into Albany, and there would be two other British armies. One would be kind of going through Lake Ontario and kind of wrapping around, and they would all be converging into Albany. But Hal didn't want to do that. He's like, Hal had this mindset, like you said earlier, about let's capture the Capitol. He kind of had more of an old school British, like England, like European mindset of let's capture the Capitol. So Hal said, no, screw you, Burgoyne. I'm gonna go from New York. I'll start. We're gonna go up the Chesapeake Bay. Not even the Delaware River. Like, forget that. We'll go the long way. We're gonna go the long way. We might as well take the beltway during rush hour on a Monday morning. Old 495. So Burgoyne and Hal were at loggerheads. And Hal screwed up, I think. He wanted Philly. So he basically said, do your own thing. They started doing their own thing. Burgoyne's like, Alright, I'll go take Albany. You do you do you. Piece of cake, right? So he goes in and Burgoyne crushes at Ticonderoga. Keith smokes them. Smokes them. Um and I've and how he did that was he didn't take there was Mount Independence that was that overlooked for Ticonderoga and the Continental Army, who I don't know who led who was leading the Continental Army here. Was it Gates? Was it Gates? Was it Horatio Gates? I think it probably was. Arnold's still up there. Um it's Gates and Arnold. Arthur Sinclair. He led the American army at Fort Ticonderoga in 77. They ordered the evacuation of the fort due to British General John McCoy's positioning of cannons on Mount Defiance. Yes, they moved cannons up the mountain. I saw mountain mountain. Is it the same mountain, maybe? Two different names. But I have a note here, and I didn't remember. Was that was that what did they lose Fort Ticonderoga because of not taking the high ground? And was that where they ignored our boys our boys' suggestion? Or was that a different battle of Saratoga that that happened at? You might be thinking, was that also West Point? I don't think it was West Point. They didn't lose West Point. I think it was. No, I think it was the putting a gun up on the up on. I remember thinking that like somebody like so. Basically, what happened was there was a big mountain next to Fort Ticonderoga, and the Continental Army was basically, we're not setting this people. Like it was a big strategic, because you know, you want high ground to overlook, and nobody they didn't put any defenses on Mount Independence. Here, John's nodded his head. Yes, our boy, friend of the show, Taduz Kusciusko, the Polish military engineer, recommended placing artillery on the top of Sugar Loaf Hill, now known as Mount Defiance. He recognized the hill overlooked both Ticonderoga and the fortifications on Mount Independence, making the American position vulnerable if the British occupied it. Sure enough, what happened? It was a classic, like it was a classic, like, oh, okay, nerd. Okay, engineered nerd. We're not, we're not, we're not doing that, you know. I'm not, you know, and they didn't listen, and then they lost Fort Ticonderoga, which is a big loss. It's a big loss. So then the Americans are reeling, they're coming down the Hudson, but they're they're being a thorn in Burgoyne's side. They're kind of they're felling trees and they're doing all kinds of stuff to kind of slow their advance up down the Hudson River. They end up in Bennington, Vermont. They stop in there for a bit. I have here this is where they had a nice exterior shot of Monticello. Like right in the thick of this, right? Getting like cut to like a scene, like a random 30-second. I think I texted you like that was weird. Like, why do they talk about that here? What, the Monticello? Like just like a little subset, like the five-minute, like a segue, they just started talking about women in the war. It was just like something thrown in. I forget. I remember texting. That was really odd that they decided to talk about that right now. Yeah. I don't remember. But yeah, the um Yeah, this was when they like kind of did that not making it look very modest. So what's going on here? So you got two British armies basically in the field, Burgoyne's and Howes. Burgoyne's coming down the Hudson. Ty Condoroga's been lost. He's pushing down Horatio. At some point, Gates takes over the army with Benedict Arnold and Kashuzko. And then you have the battle. The whole the holy triumvirant. The only ones, the ones that want it all. So they wind up, so then you got so you got two things going on. Saratoga, so then they they roll in through Vermont and they wind up at Saratoga. But then at the same time, Hal's coming up the Chesapeake going the long way to Philly. And they had an interesting quote from John Adams. He says, While New England and New York are finging on Burgoyne with General Gates, let the middle states show England who really f so like how you're gonna be. Yeah, like okay, fine. That we're taking care of them up there. Let Hal land in Philadelphia and we'll we'll show him who's boss. Take the city. Yeah, Hal comes up, he's moving his troops to basically intercept the British in what would become the Brandywine, Battle of Brandywine. The uh Continental Congress. Lafayette shows up. Lafayette comes on the scene. Lafayette shows up in Philadelphia, starts hanging out with with Washington at this time. They would become ventral Bemboys. Yes. The Continental Congress flees to Europe. Quote, I have quote, many foreign soldiers from Europe joined the cause, but none stood out as much as Lafayette.

unknown 53:52

Ooh.

Valley Forge Looms And Washington’s Strategy

SPEAKER_02 53:54

That hurt. If only you could pronounce Kushusko as well as they did in this show. This was also they added in, so I guess while this four Ticonderoga stuff was going on, they had that talk about that the Indian guy. What was that guy's name? Who the Native American who was kind of like white and looked looked like they and they used him and sent him to Europe to kind of say like help us. Like used him as like a propaganda to say, like, look, the the Native Americans like aren't we're not they're not a bunch of savages, help them keep their land or whatever. They kind of used him as a propaganda. Brandt. Joseph Brandt. Sure. That was the Indian. Yeah, no, okay. That's what they were that that was going on this whole time. I have another note here. Darren Bonaparte talking like he actually fought in the American Revolution. Yeah, he keeps saying we when he talks about them. I said, guess he's Indian, doesn't look it to me, wears his headdress. American flag never flew in battle during the war. Burgoyne blew it at Bennington. Like, I guess so the issue was the six nations were split. And that's where that that's where they were trying to use that guy as the as the propaganda. Bridge to all of them, yeah. To all be loyalists. He led a move on Fort Stanwix, Brandt, this Native American. Own and Oneida helped give Americans a heads up. They were then boys with Americans. And I think who our friend Tom Dobbs from the movie Revolution went and stayed with. After the after his son got whipped in his feet? I believe so. Yeah. Very important role in that film. Quakers getting called out for being bitch by other patriots. Tom and Sarah Fisher got windows busted for not leaving a candle. Yeah, so that's so that's in Philadelphia. So so the British were coming, and I think they they kind of just gave him Philadelphia, right? They didn't they didn't fight in Philadelphia. They fought at Brandywine in track. Well, yeah, but this was it, but like they went through Philadelphia first, no? No. Washington met them at Brandywine. Right. Funny story, but so that so that's where so they're in Saratoga, they're coming down Saratoga, and then um and then they're also coming up the Chesapeake. So they kind of this episode that's what's so exciting about this in this episode. They go back, they go back and forth between these two theaters, basically. Yeah. So now we're back down to the Philadelphia area, and this is where they start talking about the Battle of Brandywine, which is close to where we grew up. I never knew it was a very important battle. And I do have a funny story to bring, if you don't mind, John, I have a pretty funny story. It's a it's an ironic thing that I watched this when this was going on. My nephew is getting into skateboarding, heavily into skateboarding. This is kind of this is a fans, it's a little bit off topic, but it's just a funny coincidence of seeing this. He's a fan of skateboarding. My sister is trying to get him to start watching Viva Labam, the show on MTV. Okay, also Ben Margera is from the area, right? Right. So MTV, I don't know. Did you ever watch that show? I think I've maybe seen it because. Like the yeah, but like they have like Jackass wasn't the best example of this where like they have reality shows, but they're obviously scripted. Yeah. Like, you know, like scripted in a sense that like they generate storylines, right? Right, right. Yes. So we watched, we were watching an episode. So we were trying to watch an episode of Le Viva Labam, and I saw one that sounded interesting. It was um they were doing a civil war reenactment on his property, right? So what had the back, so then we watched it, I'm like, this is interesting. The backstory was I forget exactly how, but they wound up being in the woods of his head, he owns like this big piece of property, like in Brandywine, like right near where this battle would have been fought.

SPEAKER_03 58:08

Okay.

Takeaways: Don’t Lose, Win Time, Win Allies

SPEAKER_02 58:09

And they find a cannonball in the they just happened upon a cannonball, like in their wood, like in the woods, right? So they like, oh, cannonball, cool, and they like bring it up. They like in variant MTV fashion, like rush over to in town to some like historical, like society, whatever, like, hey, tell us if this cannonball is real. But the whole time they're talking about it as if the battle of Brandywine was during the Civil War, not the Revolutionary War, and it's not corrected the entire episode. He's like, Yeah, the Civil War, the Battle of Brandywine, they go to this historical society to get this like a print. It's I guess it was like a I don't know, it was like a whatever. They go and then they don't bring it up there, and then to the point where the whole episode is then based on there, they do a civil war reenactment on this property. So, like they wake up, the the Union soldiers march up to the gates of the of the property and knock on the thing, and they have this whole Civil War reenactment with Union and Confederate soldiers. The whole episode is premised on the Battle of Brandywine being a civil war. And I'm telling my sister, I'm like, that's civil that was in the revolutionary. I'm I'm sure of it. Like I had to Google it because I wasn't sure. This was before I watched the show, but just like just before, so it was like in my radar, and I'm just like, how could that how could they not educate the people like you could watch this episode and end it thinking like that the battle of Brandywine was in the Civil War? Couldn't believe it. Pretty weird, huh? Was Bam's dad in it? Yeah, and Don Vito. And all the all of all the boys were in it. I didn't we ended up not watching the entire thing because, as I alluded to, my nephew is of the generation that has zero attention span. Couldn't even like watch the show. It's unbelievable. It was okay. It was kind of a not a great episode to like it was based off the premise of a lucky. Yeah. Just weird. It was just a weird thing to like completely could have like corrected him at one point. And like, don't what would have been cooler? Like, why did it have to be the Civil War? I feel like it would have been just as cool to do a Revolutionary War uh uh reenactment, right? Like red coats, yeah, yeah, the whole thing. It would have been the same, it would have had the same, it would have been the same I just don't think anyone thought to say otherwise. Like they didn't care. I just didn't think it was that important. Maybe nobody ever knew. Maybe no one ever researched it till Ken Burns until Ken Burns. Because I'm thinking, like, well, no, I think the only battle fought in Pennsylvania in the Civil War was Gettysburg. That was at least the most north it ever got. And I don't know, but then I'm like, well, was Brandywine technically south of latitudinally? I'm like, is it? And then I but then I go, I mean, like, oh no, it's the Revolutionary War. But anyway, back to Ken Burns. This battle is way more influential than I would have ever. I thought it was just some small skirmish. I never knew it was like actually a big deal. He got, yeah, it was a bad loss for the Americans. Yeah. Real bad loss. Basically trying to trying to keep him out of Philadelphia, as John said. Happened September 11th, 1777. Hmm. Wonder what anything else big ever happened on that date? Uh not that I'm aware of. So this two big battles, a tale of two battles, really, for September of 1777, tale of two battles. Yeah, and two outcomes. Like, yes, our founding with George Washington, major loss, but then Saratoga, major W. Major win, which we've talked about, I think, at nauseum on this show. But we know to do Kushusko, we get the shout-out that we've all been. We get the shout-out that we've all went. Very interesting way that the guy pronounced it. I'd have to I'd have to check. I'd have to check with the with our the um rangers over at the the museum, but I I forget. It was a very interesting way to pronounce it. Um I think I have it recorded here. Let me see, I can pick it up. Is that how it was? I don't know. Peter Coyote just does what he wants.

unknown 1:02:43

Ready?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:59

And that is all that they say about him. And Matt and John would drive right past it all. Oh, please. They got a picture of him looking kind of they they they didn't pick the best picture of him to show. No, I would say. He looks uh boyish, he was pretty new on the scene. But anyway, so as we know, as the fans should know at this point, when it this they won in Saratoga. So Washington lost at Brandywine, and then after Brandywine, there was a massacre in pay next door Payoli, where the British kind of payback from Trenton killed a bunch of people in Paeoli. They called it the Paeoli Massacre on their way to finally get into Philadelphia. Congress flees to York. Congress flees to York. And specifically once the Susquehanna River between them and the British. That's why they went to York and not Lancaster. They stopped in Lancaster, but then they decided let's go a little further. Let's go a little bit further. Um so a big win, a big loss, and then I think even Washington doesn't even get word that they won in Saratoga and that the French joined for like quite some time. Because after the Paoli massacre, George Washington finds himself in Valley Forge. That's right. For winter. Winter is coming, as they say. One weird thing from this episode, um, Saratoga with the Battle of Germantown for you forgot that it too. That was another big ouch. Oh, bro. Before winter. After the Pale massacre. On October 5th, the Battle of Germantown. First time in the war that Washington hurled his men into the main column of the British Army. The siege at the Chew House. That was I remember that too. They were like, the whole British army was in this dude's house. Oh, and that's where they showed the Washington's tent. Yeah. Got a look got a nice shot of the Washington's tent that we saw in person, kind of, at the at the uh Museum of the American Revolution. They had a nice shot of that in the documentary. Congress in September, that same September. So Congress went to York. They came up with the Articles of Confederation, and I have here Ken Burns interviewees, obviously bagged it for not coming up with a strong central government. They did shit on it like immediately. It was a very, oh yeah, then they came up with this and meh. Didn't last. No, but in Saratoga, remember how about the story of the two brothers hugging in the river? Do you remember that? No. The Hudson River? I think. There was like so at one point in Saratoga, they were on either sides of they were on opposite sides of the Hudson. Because that was the whole point. Was like they wanted to protect Saratoga. And that was Bemis Heights helped with that, right? Yeah. They finally listened to Teduz Kushusko and took the high ground. Right. Um, but then like at one point in between fighting, two brothers, like there was a brother on the loyalist side, and there was a brother on the Patriot side, and they saw each other from across, and they like screamed and yelled and met each other and hugged each other in the middle of the river. You don't remember that story in the documentary? I don't remember ever hearing about it. We've done a decent amount of time, spent a decent amount of time in Saratoga. We were there, and I don't remember hearing that. And the prisoners from Saratoga got sent to Charlottesville, and they were not treated very well there. Similar to how we were treated there. They were forced to go to a crappy microbrewery in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, they probably got served better food than we got served at that place, honestly. Better pizza. Yeah, so it was so much, it was a lot. They said about Winchester, Virginia was a dumping ground for loyalists and Quakers. They started that. Dumping ground? What do you mean? Put people there. A bunch of loyalists were sent to Winchester. It was cool. It was a good episode. That was kind of the end of episode four. So, like big win. Big win, big loss. But the big the win was way bigger than the loss, obviously. Got the French involved. And Washington. Do you think the French heard that Washington lost? Did they get news on one hand, like, oh, Saratoga? That's interesting. And then they got, or the news came a little too late on Brandywine. That's it. Oh, do you think they like but they already signed up? We can't go back on our board now. They'll give they'll have a name for they'll they'll they'll use uh they'll use us as a colloquialism. We don't want to be associated with that. We won't be associated with Donnie Bonaparte in in 200 years. British officers forced their way into Philadelphia, and they were not nice. They weren't nice occupiers. Shockingly. Winter was tough for them. Yeah, no, and like I don't know if we're if we're getting if I'm getting ahead of myself when they when the when the Americans when they they eventually flee out of Philadelphia after I forget, I'm trying to think how they mom myth, maybe start coming back down through Jersey. Anyway, that's good, we're getting ahead of us a little bit, but they they talk about how they would just cut holes in the floor and use them as a bathroom. Yeah. Could you imagine? That's very classy. Um but and and they they did make a point, and I think Yorktown was a big one of this, and Philadelphia would be one of like similar to this too, is like when the British occupied Philadelphia, the Patriots in the town would leave. And then when the British would leave, like when the British got kicked out, and the Continental Army comes in, then the Loyalists would leave and the Patriots would come back. And it was like a flow of like, you know, I'll take your house, you take mine. Yeah. The whole the whole population would change, basically. The civilian population, yeah. Yeah. Because these were people, like again, they did make a point of like a third of the army were pay a third of people were patriots, a third were loyalists, and everybody else was indifferent. Maybe more were indifferent than those like those people just wanted to get by, so people probably just change with the weather, like, oh, the British are now here. All right, oh, yay. The flag, and then like you just have to do it. They have like bird flags, yeah. Whatever you need. Yeah. But that's it for episode four. I guess we can it was a good one. It was one worth watching in like on its own. Yeah, you could watch that one on your own. But this could be hit. I might watch the whole documentary and then you know, but don't let that fool you if you're our podcast after you watch episode four. Like I would say, like, just make sure that you if you start it, make sure you get to episode four. Or just skip right to episode. It's one or the other, you know. Yeah. Episode four was interesting. Get the spark notes elsewhere. But the only thing that I have to say, and I think I might have texted you, John, about it, is still it's episode four. So now we're at the end of episode four. Out of we knew there were six episodes, we're at the end of episode four, and they're only at Valley Forge. There's still still like six years left in the war, yes. So I'm I was getting the feeling like a lot was gonna get rushed or left out of like the Southern campaign. I'm not shocked. Maybe that's a little bit foreshadowing, but I guess we'll call it there for this episode. What do you think? I think so. A podcast episode. Yep, I'd say so. Um you guys a lot to chew on. You can watch the Ken, you can watch the documentary in secession as we're discussing these episodes. Or just not watch the first three episodes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because my notes get better as we go. I have to be honest with you. I took better notes. Because it got better each episode. It got more exciting. You got more into it. It got less about chinging on the people who founded our country and more about the actual like war itself. Yeah. At some point you have to deal with the facts of that this was either actual battles and real fun people fought. And it was actually like strategic wins and like impressive wins, and poor tactical losses and move poor movements. And I mean, I think I guess this is the point because this is this was kind of the battle episode. I guess we could talk about this, and this is kind of what is interesting, and we'll probably talk about it more so when the when it ends, but you get the feeling that it was like the Americans just weren't giving up, and that was the whole thing. Is like they just like kept dying. Like they, you know, it was kind of one of those things like they just were never going to give up. That's what they said about Washington. I think it was the end of this episode. They basically, one of the interviewers basically made the point as well. It wasn't Washington was no Napoleon, he was no Frederick the Great, he wasn't some fantastic you know, amazing general that could lead a hundred thousand-man army across, you know, a field in Europe. Like he would, he's it would be in over his head. That's not who he was. They said like the onus on Washington, he just needed to not lose. It was a it was a don't you don't have to win the war, just don't lose it. Yeah, it was a classic, like just make a war of attrition kind of out of it, so that the British public gets tired of it and they just bail. That was all he had to do. That's tough, I feel like. I don't know what's tougher, like being that army that can who do you think's more noteworthy in history? Napoleon or Washington? You could argue there was no like it's a similar situation where like if America would have lost this war, it wouldn't have been you could think it wouldn't have been a crowning jewel to Britain. Like they didn't have much to gain, but they had everything to lose in a sense. Like and it's the same for like you know, a sporting event, like if the Super Bowl champion you're playing the last place, like a trap game, you know, they call them where you're like you're playing some shitty ass team, and you know, you have nothing to you don't have much to gain by winning, but you have everything to lose by losing. And that's kind of where the British were. Yeah. And that's where the but at the same time on the other side of it is like the Americans had nothing to lose. Like if they lost big deal, I'm not obviously it would have been a big deal, but like what do you what reputation are you losing? Yeah. But to win was huge. I mean I I think that's it's it was just it's just like this is like the and you know, they they equate it like later on, they equate it to like every other uprising, and there's uprisings, you know, where you know there's revolutions in other countries where the you know, and you're fighting empires and stuff, but it just seems like and maybe it's just because we live in America and we've fed it the whole time, but this is like the ultimate underdog story. It's a big one. I mean, the British Empire was the biggest empire ever at this point, or the sun never set on it, yeah. But it sure did, which we'll come to learn in the next episode. But yeah, you just get this feeling that like the Paeoli massacre, they're losing brandy wine, they lost all these fights that but they've only had a couple wins, right? They've had Trenton, where they cheated basically. Let's they they re eat and shelled pistachias that night. Let's just put let's just you know play it as it is. Um, and then you know, a couple, but then Saratoga was the big one. And they but this is all before they had proper military training, which we'll get into. Yep. A little foreshadowing. We have a little bit of a creepo coming coming into town. So be ready for that one. All right, fans, we'll catch you in the next one.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:29

I got a hairy leg.