142: The American Revolution Within The Whimsical World of Ken Burns, Pt. 3

An army can survive cold, hunger, and defeat—but only if it learns how to stand. We dive into the messy middle of the American Revolution, where a self-made Prussian “baron” turns drills into discipline, a battlefield prima donna becomes a traitor, and the British learn that holding cities is not the same as holding hearts. From the gray misery of Valley Forge to the furnace of Monmouth, we trace how training, resolve, and a few well-timed French sails began to bend the arc of the war.

We follow the story as it spreads: John Paul Jones locks hulls at sea, frontier campaigns devastate Native homelands, and British commanders head south betting on Loyalists and shock. That wager collides with a culture of backcountry fighters who don’t care for redcoat manners or neat lines. Nathanael Greene’s strategy turns delay into leverage, while Daniel Morgan’s plan at Cowpens uses a feint to unspool British confidence. In the background, Benedict Arnold—wounded, proud, and impatient—slides from hero to turncoat, nearly trading West Point for a pension and a promise.

Everything converges at Yorktown. Washington feints at New York, Rochambeau brings siege craft, and French ships force a standoff that strangles British options. The surrender ceremony is petty theatre; the consequences are not. London’s politics fall, offensives cease, and a flawed peace begins. We sit with the aftershocks: Loyalists scattering to Nova Scotia, Black Loyalists pushed again to the margins or onto ships to Sierra Leone, and Native nations written out of the treaty. Then we end where endurance lives—Washington quieting a near-mutiny with a pair of spectacles and a line about growing old, reminding us that the real hinge of victory was simple and brutal: the army did not quit.

Subscribe, share with a friend who loves smart history, and tell us the single moment you think truly turned the war. Your take might shape our next deep dive.

Transcript

Recap Of Losses And Arnold’s Frustration

SPEAKER_01 0:17

All right, b fans, episode three of our coverage of the Ken Burns documentary series, The American Revolution, brought to you commercial free by the Nailing History Podcast. The podcast is. The documentary was brought to you commercial free by a bunch of donors. By the Better Angel Society. And the Daughters of the American Revolution. And David L. Rubinstein. But our podcast is not supported by the Which some may say is surprising. Why? They don't like giving up the money? We'll cheddar. We'll scratch. They seem to be a little tight in the pockets. Well the tax deduction, I'm sure. Of course. That's a big write-off. I think you get double write-offs for uh Ken Burns documentaries, I think, is a uh executive order sign. It's in the IRS tax code. Subsection 355, I think. Alright. Um, where do we leave off? Battle of Brand New Wine, big loss. Big L. Germantown, big l. Saratoga, big L. See you later. Gangbangs. British armor. The British turned Philadelphians' houses into toilets, literally. Horatio Gates riding his high horse. Benedict Arnold. Oh, yeah, we didn't really talk about Benedict Arnold. Wishes he got more credit. Yeah, Benedict Arnold got hurt in Saratoga, right? I think so. He got big time. So same leg that got hurt at Fort in Quebec got hurt. He got his he got shot in the leg, and then the horse, his horse fell on the leg, I think. Like his leg got fucked up. Hell. And he thinks that he should be recognized much more than he is. He said he was the unsung bat. I honestly thought they were gonna say Kachusko was the unsung hero of the Battle of Saratoga. I didn't. And they said Benedict Arnold. I was like, darn it. Yeah, I know. But Benedict Arnold did because I do have he was pretty bad in that though. And Horatio Gates was kind of a bozo. So it's like I kind of said Benedict Arnold should be considered the hero of Saturn Secret Alch. He was pretty bait brave when he got shot in the leg. The horse fell on him, but he continued to bark orders at his at his soldiers. So that's pretty bad. He was a real dude. It's probably why people like it's so gut-wrenching for people because it's like he was that dude. I don't think it is any like I mean if you're more. Yeah, but it probably was. I mean, it was for Ben Margera. He was while he was Washington's boy. Probably really that would be like you joining another podcast and actually doing work on it. And actually like trying on somebody else's podcast. Well, I think I think he didn't Washington just he just turned all that emotion into Alexander Hamilton and uh look Lafayette. You think so? Well, you gotta move on, you know? Which continued to buck to it's the only way to mend a broken heart. But episode five. So yeah, Washington's at Valley Forge, laying down. We haven't even gotten to Benedict Arnold. Yeah, we're not there yet. Benedict Benedict Arnold Benedict. He's a hero. He's an American hero. He's an American hero right now, yes. Episode five did not go well for Washington's troops. Episode five, titled, which we didn't say the title of episode four. I think I've only been saying episode five. The title is The Soul of All America. The conflict continues, expanding into naval battles, Native American territories, and southern regions. I open it up so yeah, it doesn't look great for the Americans. Yeah, but William Pitt is still like they're gonna keep fighting. Like this is William Pitt. He was eventual prime minister of England, Earl of Chatham. He basically is like, they're gonna keep fighting. Like this might be looking bad for them now, but like America they're not gonna stop. They're like half look bad, half look good. Yeah. William Pitt says we got problems. And George Washington is one. He's one. Well, I think they realize too because the French are now in. French have signed in because Saratoga. But still doesn't look good for the Americans. Their army is not trained. I mean, they got decimated, you know. Brandy wine in Germantown was not great. A bunch of guys want to start deserting. They're not listening to Kushjusko. They're not trained really well. They don't have any like setways fighting. So what are you gonna do? You're gonna bring in a creep from Germany. Right? Creep from Germany. Named he had a really long name, which so did Ma Lafayette, which I didn't understand. Lafayette, you always call McKay Marquis de Lafayette, but he's got a really long name. Marquis is a title, right? And same with this guy. Friedrich Wilhelm August Heinrich Ferdinand Freyer von Steuben. As many people know him as the creep. Baron von Steuben. Big statue of him in Valley Forge near where we live. Won't say exactly where. Everyone, I think I would say this statue of him, he's overlooking the fields of Valley Forge. And I would say if you don't go up and read it, I would, which is probably a lot of people, I would say probably 90% of the people who visit the park think it's George Washington. And they would tell their friends from out, come visit them from out of the area to say, oh, there's a Washington statue there. And people their friends are like, Oh, that's interesting. Who would say that? Just if you're driving through to King of Pressure Mall. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, oh, that's I thought you were painting. Oh, is that George Washington? And the person who lives in the area would be like, Yeah, of course it is. Look at the hat. Can only tell. He does look like George Washington in the statue. You could be forgiven for thinking it was him. But anyway, I have that. I don't know. I actually don't know a lot about Bear von Steuben. I will say that that the fourth grade history teacher mistook him for To do Scusciusko in Philadelphia if you're if you recall that story. I do recall that story. But I have here, he was faking it to make it. Like he was a bozo in Germany, it sounded like. Yeah. Kind of he was disgraced. Yeah, young boy lover. He had a young boy lover. Or multiple young boy lovers, possibly. That was a big question mark, along with if we did put together a uh bingo card that our fan suggested we do, but we ran out of time to do it. That would have been on your bingo card, I think. Are they going to talk about Von Steuben's sexual promiscuity? Orientation more so. Not well, little boys would be a little permissive. Well, I just meant more because of Ken Burns and the other subject matter they were talking about. Like yeah. And it was our bingo card would have been pretty good. Yeah. Jusco. Talk about him. He got a he got a nice little spotlight. Yeah, kind of a fake team kind of guy. Just he showed up looking the part. That's all it took. He had ten names. So that already, you know, these He said he was a baron, but was he really a baron, too? I think that was a big question mark. Low level. Yeah. He was at the age of 16 or 17, he was enlisted in the Prussian army. He was considered the most professional and disciplined in all of Europe. Well, they were German. Obviously, it's not shocking. He was in the Seven Years' War. He rose to the rank of captain. He became aide de camp to King Frederick II of Prussia, who himself was gay. They didn't know that he was renowned for his military provision strategy. And his career culminated in his attendance of Frederick's Elite School for Young Military Officers, after which he was abruptly discharged from the army in 1763, allegedly by the mastinations of a rival. So was he set up? Was it a conjug? Was he blackmailed? Because we'll never know. But we're great, we were glad to have him. Sure were. So he came over. So uh Continental Army is holed up in Valley Forge. Ben Franklin spoke his graces. Who? Baron? And uh this guy shows up and teaches them how to be an army. He teaches them to march at a certain tempo, charge at a certain tempo. He wrote a book called Regulations for the Order and Discipline of the Troops of the United States. And I think in the beginning everyone was like laughing at this dude. The soldiers were kind of like not like making fun of him, laughing at him. He was because he didn't really speak English that much well. And uh yeah, he got a couple laughs out of him. I think he purposely. I think he knew he his English was terrible or non-existent, and I think he made some jokes too. You think he did it on purpose? You think he was kind of trying to be one of the boys? I think so. One of them boys fit in with the rest of the because you gotta figure, like, this guy thinks he's like Mr. like Baron, and I don't think that garnishes much respect from like these backcountry farmers of the Continental Army, like they don't care about that. Yeah. So he needed it because Valley Forge was a sad and dreary place. They really talked on it. I think Washington that Washington is quoted as saying Valley Forge is a dreary kind of place. Damn, is what I have right there. They like hated it here. And this is where the talk of Horatio Gates taking over for Washington started gaining ground, and that was a controversial. A lot of people could be. Long Island, Brandywine. The Conway. Conway plot. There was some like uh Conway Cabal. Cabal? Which refers loosely to organized attempts by a group of military officers and members of Congress to remove General George Washington's. Yeah, there was some there was some mutiny talk. Yeah, it was not great. Which I wouldn't blame him. But you know, Tom Dobbs was still there. It's like but you know, you it's a yeah. Continental dollar went to shit. I have that in my notes. Yes. Inflation was rampant, it wasn't worth anything. At one point, Valley Forge was the first, fourth largest city in America. Because of this? Because of all the troops that were there. Wow. And all the women and everyone else had joined them. Martha decided to join George Washington at HQ at headquarters. Which you could which is still standing. You can tour it. Have you ever been there to Washington's headquarters? Yes. A couple years ago. He was renting it from the man who owned the mill that Valley Forge is named after, I believe. It's a nice house. It looks it. I've never been there. John Lawrence asked his dad if he can free some slaves. And he Henry and his dad said, if I free some, I gotta free all of them. Can't have that. Yeah, he was trying to like for to fight, right? Yeah. Because they were short on numbers and they were looking for ways to do it. He said, told his son, if I free some, it's gonna piss off the other ones. Can't have that. Um Betsy Amblers family still running around. This family he just followed. That was kind of irrelevant. Yeah, why uh she was in Yorktown and left and then went back to Yorktown, but not in a big house or smaller house. Yeah, they were like, Yeah, and then they were broke and she was must have been the metaphor for something that I didn't care about. Well, it did tell you about like the like we talked about in our last episode, our last podcast episode, about how you were constantly moving depending on who was occupying. Yeah. Nathaniel Green became his became his quartermaster reluctantly, but he crushed it at that as well. Yeah, he knew top dog. Nathaniel Green was a beast. If you remember, he is one of my cards. I think he's a 10. And what did they say earlier? They did say earlier in the documentary Jack. Washington was always known for having councils of war, so basically gathering together his top officers and basically hearing what they thought, and then he would make a decision. And they said basically it would be whatever Nathaniel Green thought is what Washington would do. I believe it. Dude was a beast. But the but yes, but he so he needed him with Washington needed him with him, needed Green to help him, and then but Green wanted to get his hands dirty. Did you say that already? Like Green wanted to fight. Green was a fighter. Green wanted to fight, but he reluctantly accepted this quarter because he because what am I gonna say? Say no to George Washington? He's gonna be on the dollar bill someday. Nathaniel Green should be on a currency. He's pretty unsung, I would say. I don't think a lot of people know who he is. I don't think a lot of people know who he is. The eight officers under Washington's name at the National Arch in Valley Forge, which I went to on Thanksgiving morning, has his officers. I I don't think you could ask a hundred American. Who were they? Do you remember? Sullivan, John Sullivan, Stoiban was on there. Lafayette. Green. Hamilton? No. He wasn't an office, he was an aide de camp to him. He was his secretary. They talk about him in this documentary. Another German. There was a couple more. So you don't know the. I know I knew I said their first names. And my wife was my wife and my my in-laws were just busy making f jokes at the actual monument itself. This is like the there's a pretty cool archway in Valley Forge that as John said. So um I have just getting right so Valley Forge happens, and then like right after Valley Forge, they go over to Jersey to go back up to New York. Is that the plan? Or I forget ex or no, they leave Philly and then they're chasing Washington's trying to chase them through Jersey. Yes. Why did they leave Philly? I forget. It was a very tough winter for them. And oh boy. My notes are too good. My notes are too good, fans. I have too many notes. Because the French Alliance. So the French showed up. Making it was put them in put the English in a vulnerable position, forcing them to consolidate back up in New York. Right. So I thought. And then so they they left. Washington got word that they were leaving, and they followed them. Like immediate. I think they said like 15 minutes after the alert, the last soldier from England left Philadelphia, like Washington and the boys showed up. And that's when everyone came back and saw that there was toilets in their house. It stunk. Like it was not good either way. Either way, like you'd showed up, and like if you were if you were a loyalist and you stayed in Philadelphia, you got treated like dirt. Benedict Arnold would end up overseeing Philadelphia. He was like basically put in charge of overseeing and restoring order. And he was bad at that because he liked the he he liked the glitz and glamour. And he was like having these fancy parties, and people were looking at him like, what the hell is this? And they said there was a woman he got involved with. Biggest mistake. And I have here that while Washington's troops were moving up through New Jersey, there was a total solar eclipse. That lasted for four years. Foreshadowing. Foreshadowing. So yeah, so the so instead of just letting, which is probably annoying for England, right? Instead of just letting them like retreat and then get into Philadelphia and be like, okay, we got Philadelphia back. Washington chased them, started chasing them up into New Northern New York to try to decimate them, I guess, more so. Jersey, uh, towards New York. Yes. And they met at the Battle of Monmouth, which is also one of my favorite battles in the American Revolution. It was hot. Very hot. Goes from being very cold to very hot. And um Washington, this is where Washington. So Charles Lee is leading the army, and he is a full-fledged bozo. We've talked about him before. He got caught in a bar. He's just a buffoon, somewhat. He kind of comes in and out. He's like always you never hear any great stories from him, right? I don't think. No great victories from big Charles Lee. But he thought that he should be the leader of the army. I think because of how he fought in the Seven Years' War. I think he was a fairly decorative veteran. Not sure. In this French anymore. Anyway, he's leading this. They start, they start retreating under Lee, and then Washington shows up on his horse and he's like, what the hell's going on? And Lee's like, oh duh, I you didn't like blaming everybody else, it seems like a very millennial type, well, you touched it type response, you know. And he runs into Washington, and then Washington says the great line. Um, you ought to not have undertaken this battle, it subcontext this bat, this battle, unless you intended to go through with it. Lee keeps retreating, and Washington takes his horse, goes back into battle, drags his people, everyone rallies behind him, and they go back and they end up winning. That was the last time Washington ever saw battle until your town. Major engagement. Colonel Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr, Colonels, Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr, both had their horses shot out from under them. Uh north uh yeah, it was Britts would eventually bail and Washington's men would take the field. It was a it was a big one. That was a big win. That was another big win. Um and then they ended up. This is I don't have that many notes from episode, but maybe John, you might be more interested in this than me. I didn't realize. Then they get into the the naval scene. Yeah. So the French bring bring a navy over. The British have the stain, the British have one of. The best naval navies in the world. They have the best navy in the world. And you can imagine America doesn't have a navy really at all. No. They rely on privateering and yeah. John Greenwood, future dentist. Um, and then uh um, but then this guy, John Paul Jones, comes from where's he from? He's from I think Scotland. He's from Ireland, he's from England. And he rolls up to he goes, he crosses the pond. I think he might have already been there. Really? I don't know if he went over. I think he's already was there. And he's just fighting. And he's just like going around the British Isles and just like picking up ships and trying to cause it. His thing was the Bonham. The big the big battle with him was the uh was the ship. The Bonham Richard. A single yeah, he basically engaged a British uh vessel called the Serapis. And he basically engaged guns. They literally like locked arms, like these two boats were fighting like literally at broadsides next to one another. And then he had a guy on his boat, he threw a single grenade down the hatchway of the the Serapis, and it blew up all the interior of the boat, and they surrendered. Oh, really? And then the bottom Richard sank like the next day. So they won the battle, but they lost their own ship. And he was a beast. He's buried in Annapolis. For any of our fans who were ever visiting the Naval Academy, you can go see him. There's a history museum of the Navy, of the U.S. Navy at Annapolis, and he's buried at the chapel underground. That'd be cool. Crypt. It's very cool. So they talk about that a lot. I got kind of got bored with the I didn't really care so much about the Navy stuff. Did you? It's but it's it's interesting enough, but it's different. I feel like some people love naval history and some people more like more of a land guy. Yeah, well, it's better. Yeah. Because I feel like for naval's tough because I don't know boats really. It's like how you move and it's like and just like in general, how difficult it is or whatever. It's incredibly difficult. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I bet that. But like you don't know it because you don't do it. You can't like visualize and the schooners and this whole like language. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is kind of a whole separate thing. And also, I never really felt found it to be very consequential. I would say it is, though. I mean you roll the seas. But they never did. They just kind of I don't know. I found that, and then also, which I guess this was this episode too, a lot of the fighting in the backcountry. Uh yeah. George Rogers Clark coming on the scene. That was that seemed inconsequential to me, also. No? In terms of what? I mean, he basically took out the Native American problem. I mean The what? Basically made them a non-fighting force after that. Yeah. Yeah, George Rogers Clark, considered by some an American hero, by others, not so much. So he wound up, he's he's west of the Appalachians. You could call it the Western Frontier, I guess you could call it, right? And he's going up and down the Mississippi Delta, like crushing Indian tribes. Yep. White eyes, Indian, white eyes killed by American militia after making a treaty with Americans in Pittsburgh. And that just set George Rogers Clark off. Yeah, they painted him like a gen, like a basically, they painted him like he was committing genocide. They did. Was he? And maybe he was. I don't know. That's what they made it at. It ought to be. I suppose it wasn't necessarily a fair fight all the time. They also talked about bankers that gave Robert Robert Morris a little bit of a shout out. They did. The funding of the and then they said it was the reason that that was a major reason why a strong central government was needed so that they can get actually claim their interest. Well, he also they also he made money off of the American Revolution, also. Yeah, they talked about some war profiteering. Yeah, so they kind of they kind of poo-poo that. Um Savannah gets lost. So the British, so the British end up saying, like, all right, we're we're not gonna win in the north. They lost Monmouth, they're like, they're struggling in the north. They also don't care as much, like you said. Like they're like, let's go down to the south. Let's keep and they actually and they thought they would have more loyal, they had thought there was more loyalists in general overall in the southern states. But they blow, but they blow that by like trying to like antagonize people by like burning down villages of like patriots and stuff, but that makes the people who are loyalists like get mad and turn pa patriots. Yeah. And I also don't think they I think they had a they didn't know about all the backcountry people that came from like Scotland again. City talks about it, but like I feel like when it moves to the Southern Theater, that's when like your backcountry like frontiersmen start getting more involved in the oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, and that's when it gets like pretty heavy for the British. Yeah. So it's kind of getting into that. Um, they but they were but the backcountry military were asked to defend Charleston by the Union, the Union, by the Continental Army, but they said, I quote, f that, I don't want smallpox. That's why they didn't help, and that's why uh Charleston. I guess Charleston falls. Yes, it falls, and who who was it that surrendered? The American that surrendered, Ben Lin Ben Lincoln. Ben Lincoln. Ben Lincoln. And he was embarrassed because they wanted certain treat terms, surrender terms, and the British didn't give it to them. Because of oh yeah, and then that foreshadowing the surrender terms and later. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes, that yeah, re-fortifying West Point. Washington thought it was the most strategic and important point in all of America. Yes. Oh, was it? I yes. Okay. He looked a little more grown up. And there was a so they built that chain going across the Hudson. They did. We did see a piece of that chain, I believe, in his national park or at Saratoga. No, wouldn't would it have been at Saratoga? We've seen a piece of that chain. I'm pretty sure. It's out there. We saw it? I think so. Don't you remember that? Like a link? Yeah. Probably Saratoga. Probably did it in Saratoga too. Maybe. I don't think I don't know. Which is kind of like a obvious thing to do, but I guess it was a smart, like, you know, it's like, well, let's just put a chain across here so they can't cross the river. Oh, good idea. Hey. I have here also that the Spanish get talked about because they have the Spanish have their own empire in the New World, but they said, like the French, Spain only saw the revolution as a means to an end to help undercut the British, not necessarily to help a fledgling America. Yeah. It was tricky for them though. They did say this, and I thought it was interesting, because they had their own colonial empire in the New World, and they kind of said, like, well, wouldn't it be ironic if the Spanish were to help American rebels, American colonists, but then they themselves have their own colonies, um, kind of put them in a bind there. Like, how could we support these Americans? And then we have Colombia and what is make you know, New Spain and Mexico, and all these colonies of the Spanish Empire. Just make it tricky for them. But then, yeah, this episode really harped on it. It was kind of sad for the Native Americans. I think that was kind of the big George Rogers Clark, but also like then the on the the six nations of central New York really got got their got it gotten to them. By who? John Sullivan. George Washington basically said, told Sullivan, take care of these guys. And it was like no holes barred. Yeah. John Sullivan was tasked with pushing Indians from the frontiers in New York and Pennsylvania. His orders were to the to be the total destruction of Indian settlements, no overtures to peace. And that's all because they thought they were loyalists. Or they were loyalists. They were helping, they were causing problems. I have here 16-foot high corn stalks. Question mark. Question mark. That's how high they said the corn was. 16 feet tall. Is that how high corn can grow? That's double me. That's like three of me. That's pretty tall. Seneca, the Cayuga, the Anondaga, and other tribes in central New York were totally devastated. And then it shifted to the south. Focus shifted. Ken Burns with an hour and a half left in his documentary finally. Hour and a half left in his documentary, and like five years left in the war, shifts shifts it down to the south. Yeah, yeah, they didn't, they didn't um yeah. Well, so that's like that leaves us to episode six, I guess. Well, I still have some. They said white unit the white uniforms of the French were a bad idea. They stuck out like a sore thumb. I have that. The first campaigns of them find out did not go well. The winter of 1779, 880 was the worst in the 18th century. Morristown was even the winter at Morristown was worse for the Americans than at Valley Forge. I guess Valley Forge isn't such a dreary place after all, is it, Georgie? And Henry Clinton, after waiting 21 months, sitting in his high sitting on his high horse in New York, finally got around to sailing his army, sailing his troops down to Charleston and the Carolinas. And who did he leave in charge down there? Wallace. Big mistake. I have here there's no escape. He had a surrender. So General Lincoln had to surrender. It was great humiliation to the Americans, not only because the city was lost, but an entire army was surrendered and many munitions. That was a big loss. Charleston? That was a big loss. Big time loss. Maybe worse than Brandywine. I mean, you you I think if you split it into two different wars, the North and the South, Northern Theatre Theater, Southern Theater, it's like, oh, we're gonna get we're gonna get screwed down here in the South. Then what's gonna happen? A bad vibe. Nate dog. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that's episode five in the bag. Episode six. The most sacred thing. 1780 to present. I have approximately 1789. That's what mine says. To approximately no, this is May 1780 to forward. To onward. That's what I have. Wonder what that means. A lot didn't a lot of didn't live up to their ideals talk, is my assumption going into it. Um I have here even so an opening to this, like so they're making their way in the southern um on the southern uh coast, and Thomas Jefferson sees it as Williamsburg is way too close to the coast. As we know, it's close to Jamestown and Yorktown on the water. Right on the water, basically. So he I say even Thomas Jefferson knew Williamsburg was bullshit. He moved the Capitol to Richmond. So he's out of there. Hightailing it. Yeah. No one's gonna go back. It's gonna be a blip in history until a man named John D. Rockefeller Jr. tries to revitalize the town. So it won't be another 200 years until anyone knows what Williamsburg is. So it all moves to the south. So it moves to Georgia first. Georgia falls relatively easily following the taking of Savannah. There was really just the two cities, Augusta and Savannah in Georgia. And basically the British retake the whole state. I mean, there's obviously still skirmishes between like loyalists and patriots in the backcountry stuff, but effectively Georgia falls under British control again. Unquestioned. And so then the British begin to move up to South Carolina, and it just kind of gets tougher and tougher from there for them. But you got your boy Tarleton. And Tarleton, they started introducing the cavalry as a bit the British cavalry's big down south, seems like. Like Tarleton and Cornwallis? A little bit. You think so? Taking the glory from the from the field. Um Tarleton was nasty. He was a nasty dude. But if you fought fire with fire. What are you gonna do? You know you you almost needed it. So yeah, here I got green clad loyalists. They were green. They were called the British Legion, and he was a big time piece of work. Yeah, they wore green in the Patriot. Well, there was like green accents. And the Brits, like we said earlier, they're very good at occupying cities, not so much the countrysides. And I think that that became very apparent in the southern theater of the war. As like a lot of the fighting on the interior, Francis Marion comes on the scene, your boy. Mm-hmm. Portrayed roughly by Mel Gibson and the Patriot. Roughly. Um, Henry Clinton told Cornwallis he needed to totally pacify South Carolina before he moved on to North Carolina, Virginia. But uh Cornwallis ends up getting ants in his pants. Wants to move north a little more quickly. And uh Vinny Brown, our old friend, Mr. Silver Dreadlocks, he thinks the Brits are playing the numbers game with how many more slaves over whites there were. Oh, thinking that by having by moving the theater to the south where there's more of a slave population. Still thinking they'd be able to get more backing because of the slaves. Right. Using again as a war aim. I mean, probably then they've messed it up though. Like I said, I remember I remember they they tried to get people on their side by like burning towns and of patriots and stuff, and it was getting it was back totally backfiring on them. I have it here. I love the Brits trying to get people to join them by talking too smug to these mountain men and burning down. Who would think that would work? Only the British would think that would work, right? Like, I think they were kind of saying, like, you have to join, like, why would you not join us? Don't be stupid. Don't be stupid, join us. And I think the backcountry people were like, I think it was a lot of that going on. Like, they didn't know, they had no idea how to talk to these backcountry folk. Because I guess you figure going back to Albion Seed, maybe, is like they think they there's been some evolution from in for in a hundred years. Well, the backcountry folk, if you know of an Albion Seed, they come from the borderlands of England up in up in the lowland Scotland and up near the border, where fighting for centuries was very nasty between the English and the Irish and the Irish, the Scotch-Irish that came over and populated the backcountry. So maybe so maybe if a lot of a story So maybe if like um Clinton would have read Albion Seed. They may have passed the preface. They may have won the they they may have won the war. They certainly would have underestimated them. That's interesting. They literally left England to go to a place like the backcountry of America to get away from the English. And then the English are and they think that they could talk them back into it. That was hey, sorry about that. What do you join? How about hey, how about you join us? They thought they would be far more loyalists than the New Englanders. I don't understand that. Which fast forward 30 years to the War of 1812, and New England wants to basically rejoin basically wants to join England again. Yeah, so there was a little bit of yeah, it's a it's that's an interesting story that that KB kind of touches on. You gotta give it to him. If you won't think about that, give it to KB a little bit. But they lose Camden, Horatio Gates loses it in Camden, South Carolina. Yes. And that's a big time loss. Gates is like also thinking, I think Gates and doesn't like hightail it off the field. Yeah, I think Clinton or uh Washington and Gates are still beefing a little bit, right? And Gates thinks he should be running the army, and he gets smoked at Camden, and uh he just leaves, bounces out of North Carolina from the field. Yes, like not even they haven't even lost yet, and he's like like a looney tune. I'm thinking it's like loony tunes like scattering out like like totally he blows Roadrunner running off the field, yeah. Like like yeah, running away like a coward, and then Washington goes and find then he can then he can at that point when he leaves, he because he was assigned, Green was assigned by people other than Washington, I think. Down into the Virginia or Gates was sorry. Gates was Gates was assigned, it wasn't his decision to send Gates down there, and then once Gates blew it in Camden, Washington kind of says, enough. We're bringing up my boy down here, and then he brings nasty Nate Green down to take care of down in the down in the southern uh southern theater. I think is kind of the the scene there. Yeah, and all this time Washington's up in New York. He's he like the whole time, this whole time Washington still thinks New York is the is is the is he is wanting New York back. He was embarrassed years earlier. So Washington's army is still. They're like surrounding New York. They're like up in White Plains County, like up like north of Manhattan Island. So like they're up there, but they haven't been able to retake. The British are still pretty well entrenched in Man in the in New York. But they're not going anywhere, they're not going anywhere. Comp de Rochambeau finally arrives on the scene. From France. From France. He was he and Washington link up. Uh they talked about how people in France loved him, loved Washington. And Washington left New York, went to Connecticut to talk with Rochambeau. Because I guess the French had taken over Newport, Rhode Island. They both agreed that retaking New York was the top priority. Again. South getting its unfair, not getting its fair do. And Henry Clinton, the leader of the British forces, the overall number one in command, he still believed that taking the Hudson River, the northern states would be cooked. So they were still living the strategy of still living off New England. According to Ken Burns. According to Ken Burns. He's a New Englander. He lives in New Hampshire. Right. So we don't know. Got to keep the focus on the thing that's still not the focus, even though it's that ended up being in common. Hasn't been the focus for five years. Washington went to West Point, and its commander Benedict Arnold was nowhere to be found. Now I this is the thing. There's a better story about Benedict Arnold that I think happened, and it was missed. It wasn't talked about on here. Like George Washington was on his way up to check in on our boy. So Benedict was in Philly and he was like crying like every day. Like, I don't get my due. I don't get my due. No one's I won Saratoga. No one's giving me my flowers. You know, I'm I'm wah wa. Um he's having these big fancy parties down in Philadelphia after it's been retaken, after they flee to go to New York. He's fallen in love. Um I have um I have here fell in love with a loyalist, but can we really blame him for bailing? I think a certain meatloaf would say it's okay. In other words, I said he would do anything for love. But he would do that. He would. But this woman had connections with a British spy, a man by the name of John Andre. Yes. He was the leader of the British spy network in North America, and Arnold told him that he never wanted independence. Totally bad, totally reneging. And couldn't believe that the Americans would ally with the Catholic French. Ooh. Who he thought were enemies of liberty. But now is now what's really eaten at him? Is he upset that he's not getting his flowers? Is he does he hate the Catholics? Is he just is he just booty blind, as they say? Is he booty blind? Probably a little bit of all that. Yeah. But so he bails for 20,000 pounds and 500 pounds a year for life. Dang. I don't know what that would be. 20,000 pounds was probably a lot back, that would be my guess. That was a lot of money. Was it? Yeah. But the way in which he gets found out is quite interesting. Because that John Andre guy drops the note, doesn't he? Yeah. I have here that John Andre, the spy, who was now in communication with Arnold. Yeah. This whole like arrangement's made for Arnold to switch sides and basically give up West Point, which Washington thought was the most strategic point in the whole continent. Andre's captured and had incriminating documents of Benedict Arnold on his person. I called them the 18th century Epstein Files. That was very clever of you. I know you were proud of that. I know you were proud of that. It is true. But by that point, Washington, they so they capture Andre, they hang him. But Arnold's nowhere to be found once Washington gets to West Point. And I feel like he lost a son. Yeah, you're saying I feel like Arnold, I think Washington probably took it quite personally. So once as soon as Washington learned about Andre getting caught, it was like minutes before Washington was supposed to arrive at Benedict Arnold's headquarters for breakfast. I think. Like he was like rolling up, they were gonna have a nice breakfast. It would be like me and you going to Mama Alba's to get some breakfast, get some ex Benedict. Well, that's maybe that's why it got its name. Might be. It was literally like a cartoon, again, another like cartoonish example of like Washington's coming in while Arnold's like bailing out of the back of the house, and like Washington's or Arnold's wife was stayed, and she was like crazy, and she kind of like lost it, and she was like throwing everybody off, and then longs that's how Benedict Arnold was able to escape, and then he took a he hissed a ride on the Hudson and like was able to join the British forces, I guess. And then he received a general command, and he would fight, they moved to the Southern Theater, right? And then he would like lead troops in the South. Yeah, down in Virginia. Um, brigadier general. He became a brigadier general. So that's what happened to Benedict Arnold. He fell in love with, he became booty blind. It happens. Just a lot of things happen with like, you know, he doesn't think he's getting his druthers. Is that the word? Or his flowers for what he did. I think it's just that's just a lot of that. I've I assume we've talked about on the podcast. What do you think? I think he is if I mean of all these characters, they want to talk about the owner the slave stuff, and that's fine. But I think in terms of like uh if you really want to look at it, I think he might be the most dividing American he is the most controversial. In his American history? He's up there from a sense of like not that he owns slave, not in terms of the idealism, but in terms of like look if you really break down literally like backed out of like 180, oh oh I didn't want independence. Which is weird for him, especially because it was after Saratoga. It's like, well, then why would you have fought so hard? You'd already declared independence. They'd already declared independence. Yeah. I mean, he's just at that point you think he's booty blind talking out of it. Yeah, he's booty blind. How was he gonna be how is he that woman was never gonna love him back if he was he never had to come back and fight because they said his wife died. I think after Quebec he went to like he could have just lived a quiet life. Yeah. His wife died, and he's like, I'm bored. And then went to Saratoga, yeah. Didn't have to do that. Well, similar to Mel Gibson and the Patriots, some same, same story here. Um yeah, so that that's the Benedict Arnold story, you know? That's kind of what's going on up north, which isn't much. At this point, yeah. Yeah. More and more of the focus is shifting to the south. And they were talking about the POWs, the conditions of like the POWs, which were apparently pretty bad. Oh, I think so. I have here, would you rather be a POW in the backcountry in the American Revolution or in Japan during World War II? Which is worse. Because I guess when I was watching it, I was getting vibes of like, you know, work camps or whatever. You're at war, Siberia. Oh, a Russian camp in Siberia. Yeah. Or like Vietnam. Like kind of all in the same place. Would you want hot or cold? I mean, that's really I guess that's the well, and what was backcountry, I guess you get a little bit of both. You could depending on the time of year. Yeah. I don't know. You would have just been the unfortunately, I think the time period, any to be a disease, was probably so bad. And the food, oh my god. The food was bad enough. The food would have been bad in Japan. Rice and maggots, probably. Yeah. But in there, like it was probably nothing. Just bark? Wood bark? Yeah, like probably eating, you know, I don't know. Chewing your left chewing boots? It was a lot of that talk, eating your own boots. Which I was wondering, like, do you think you could eat your own boots? Do you think you could eat boots? Boil them up a little bit. Like, do you wonder like what do you think it tastes like? Like, do you think it tastes like skin? Like of like a chicken? Like chicken skin, turkey skin? Now that we're pork rinds. I just couldn't salt it. I mean no flavor. I don't know how do you chew it? Like, does it really get salt when you boil it enough to chew and swallow? Gross. And who thought to do it? There was also talk of um they they ate a dog somewhere. I forget where that was. There was one story of them eating a dog.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Was that this?

POW Hardship, Morristown Winter, And Desertion

King’s Mountain, Cowpens, And Greene’s Strategy

SPEAKER_01 49:19

I thought yeah. Poor thing. Like so they liked that. It was like a pet and they ate it. Like it wasn't even. Might have been a German town. I don't remember. I don't remember that. Yeah. So then Battle of Cal Penn shows up. Is that before the King's Mountain, Battle of King's Mountain? Where was that? That's when the backcountrymen got involved. British moved in North Carolina. That's what started happening. Ferguson sent Patriots over the Blue Ridge Mountains telling them that it's game over and they should come back into the fold. It didn't work. A waiver frontiersman over mountain men came over the mountain and looked to F up. The Battle of King's Mountain. I guess that's what my my thought of like Brits trying to like talk to them being smug. Like, hey, fall back in line. We won. Esther Reed had women make some shirts. 2,000 shirts sold for the soldiers. Fueled by Rum, some Pennsylvanians mutinied in New Jersey wonning their money. They were fed up. Half the army left. I don't think it's understated how much not paying these troops played into this. Well, and just amazing how they stayed. I mean, I think that's the end of the discussion, and they get into it is that they stay. I mean, how do you you're not being fed, you're not being paid, and you're just like, okay. We think it was a case, some of it was just like, well, what else would I what else am I gonna do? I guess. Yeah. Like where this this war, this country's been torn apart by war for however many years. Yeah, right. Like some some of my whole adult life. Started the war started when I was 13, and now I'm I'm 20 and it's still war-torn or whatever. I could go so buy, you know, go grow corn and feed my family, but like I can't take it to market if the market's been destroyed. It's like, I don't know. Maybe some people were like, well, we have to figure out where this goes one way or the other. I don't know. Yeah, it's got to end one way or the other exactly. But I think the the one thing that I thought of, and with all this, like the POW stuff, or like just in general, is like how bad the conditions were in camp. You got like no break. Like you were in camp and you were freezing or whatever, then you would have to get up and you would have to go to battle, which is even worse than camp. And then you would go back to camp. Like there was no like, oh, let me get a nice hot shower and like for months, like no shower, no break, no bed, no heat. These guys must have been so tough. Like you think about like World War II, those guys, and you, but you would have a respite. Not to take anything away from the World War II veterans, they had this similar situation, but you would have like times where you would be in a you know, have you know a break, from what I understand, at least from watching Bandon Brothers or Faving Private Ryan, you know, you would be able to get like a hot shower and a nice meal and stuff, like you, but these guys like they had no break. Eating they were like eat they want at night, they'd be eating their boots and then they'd they'd wake up the next morning after march to the basically to their death. It's crazy, man. And then the battle of cowpens, that's like cow pens, that's probably one of that's my that's one of my favorites, too. You figure the two like battle of mammoth and battle of cowpens are two awesome battles, they're good stories. Battle of Cowpens is basically there's my our fans who have watched The Patriot. It's basically the final battle of that film. And you could consider it the turning point of the Southern theater, too, I would say, leading up to it. Yeah, and there were like some smaller skirmishes. The like John said, the backcountry starting to get involved. There's more guerrilla warfare. I don't know what they called it that then, but more like Indian tactics, Native American tactics, all these people who like hunt the hunter and gatherers, not not fighting the British, the British style of war. Um and then so then it all kind of comes to a head at the Battle of Calpins, which uh where is that? Is that in Virginia? North Carolina, I think. But it's a similar situation where they put the they they put the militia up front, and this was Nathan is this big Nate Carolina. Is this Nate Nasty Nates doing? Yep. They did a big fake out. Yeah, they had the militia leading just I mean, just like in the Patriot. It really would have you when was the last time you saw that film? Been a while? It's been a minute, yeah. But the militia leads the lines up, take the first, takes the first shot, or they have to take two shots, then they retreat. The British think that they won, they retreat over a hill, and it's like a blind hill, so then they come back down, and when the British are following them, they come back down. The like sharpshooters, like I think it's regular, but I think it ended up being like the best of the best of the Continental Army were waiting for them, sharpshooters, and they just mowed them down. Um, and that was a big win, big win for the Continentals. Daniel Morgan was leaving that under Nathan under Green, though, no? Or um Morgan evaded Cornwallis and joined American General Nathaniel Green's army near Greensboro, north, North Carolina. No, Green was at the Battle of Gilf Guilford Courthouse. So they were kind of tag team in the South, those two? A little bit. That happened a little, it happened in March of '81. Well, this is while they're down there, Cornwallis moved up to Virginia, and the Virginians weren't ready at all. They didn't weren't ready for a fight. In Jamestown, did they want they he came in, he came into Jamestown, though? Up the James River and then began to march towards Richmond. General Benedict Arnold's army began to burn down Richmond and would eventually winter at Portsmouth, Virginia, so they could be supported. And General Washington sent his new favorite son, Marquis de Lafayette, to stop him. And your boy Nathaniel Green was described as the young sung hero of the American Revolution. There you go. I think yeah. So they kind of pushed everybody up, and then I think then it then then we kind of pushed everybody up from the south. It started turning, and then they wound up in Yorktown. And we've talked about Yorktown. Right? But eventually, how did Washington Washington came down to Yorktown? They faked out Clinton in New York. They feigned them in New York. Yeah. So Rochamba and Washington were able to and then like a falsified documents. Washington falsified documents that fell into Clinton's hands implying he'd attacked New York. By the time Clinton realized he was being fooled, Washington was in Philadelphia. The French fleet arrived, but the British weren't going to let them sit idle. So Admiral de Grasse, the French commander. They like snuck by him. Moved out into the open sea to face the British fleet. Result was a standoff, but British officials had to go back to New York. Another group of French ships, however, made the slip and went up the James River, and then Washington and Rochambeau arrived in New Yorktown. So then they got surrounded, and we kind of talked about this and just kind of And Rochambeau literally told Washington, step aside, I'll handle the siege. Don't know what you're doing. There you go. I mean, I think there's a good quote that Washington said, and I think it's kind of the whole thing is like the the US just could uh the the continental army, all they had to do is not give up and they'd get lucky, basically. And that's what happened in Yorktown. They got lucky. They got lucky. Washington didn't let Cornwallis's men return to Europe. He still remembered how they treated General Lincoln at Charleston. I say Cornwallis engineers recommending Yorktown as a good spot to defend could have used some to do kastusko knowledge. Imagine if he joined the maybe that's the turning point. Maybe that's the maybe that's the fork in the road. If he was with the British? Yeah. If they got a swap, like a two-for-one swap, they got Arnold in Kachusko. What did we say earlier was the was the real fork? If Washington got his commission and like the 1750s. It's true. Could have been a computer. They could have sent him to India. Like, who knows? Maybe they would have sent him somewhere else. And then who'd we be getting led by? Horatio Gates. I think would have fallen on its face in the first six months. Well, it would have been okay for half the war, and then he would have bailed. He would have cried his way back to Benedict Arnold? Maybe. Maybe. Probably would would have been the it would have been Benedict Arnold or Gates or Green, I guess. Anyway, I I think it's funny the surrender. What made me like we've we talked about this, we probably talked about it, we learned about it. We probably talked about it on the podcast when we were at Yorktown, uh, when we were doing the historic triangle of Virginia, but I it felt like the surrender at Yorktown was like so petty, didn't it? Like, you know, and you kind of know that it's like Cornwallis doesn't show he shows his second in command to surrender to France. Like the second in command tries to surrender to Rochambeau because he's like, I'm not surrendering to the Continental Army, they didn't win this. The French won this, to your point of saying, like, Washington, but then France is like, no, you gotta surrender to them. Just to like kind of like say, like, yeah, just kind of saying, like, no, no, no, you lost to those guys. You didn't lose the odds. You lost just to like salt in the wound. Then Washington, then he tries to surrender to then the second in command tries to surrender to Washington, but this is Washington's like, no, you're the second in command, you're not surrendering to me. You surrender to my second in command. And then who's Ben Lincoln? The second in command is Benjamin Lincoln, who who lost his army in Charleston. In Charleston, and then he takes the sword and gives it back. It's like, what's what's going on over there? It's like a it's like a farcical like nonsense, you know? Yeah, Conway wasn't bear. Prime Minister North Wallace, you mean? Well, Corwallis was there. I think Conway Who's Conway? I think the interviewer who was being the interviewee. The British Prime Minister North heard about it five weeks later. He nearly wept, filling his arms and all. He started losing his mind. And so by 1782, all further offensive action in North America ceased. Kind of the bread was baked. And now it's how the British pull out, and you know, where do we go from here? This caused the British government to fall, and they had to set up a new government which would work towards the eventual the inevitable peace settlement, which was hashed out in the Treaty of Paris. Yeah, with our boy John Jay and John Adams and Penn Franklin. Um I have this is what this is this was the when when we talked in the first episode where I was like, oh, I think it I feel like they're gonna make it seem like it's a sad ending for the US. And it felt like they didn't really they said they made it seem like England just decided to stop fighting. They didn't lose the war. They're like, oh, you know what? You guys can have we we gotta worry about India and the Caribbean, and you know, oh whatever. We don't we don't need you, which is probably partly true, but it kind of took away a little bit of the glitz and glamour of like, oh, we beat the British. It was more like we didn't beat the British, the British just let us have it. It's kind of true. Like they could have kept fighting. Well, the whole thing about Washington not needing to lose the war. I mean, that's kind of what that leads into. I mean, that's what that implies. Yeah, it's just again kind of a bummer. I thought they started showing kind of where everyone happens in 1783. There was still talk of mutiny. Yeah, well, the that's a good that's a great story. What is that money? Yeah, so like they hadn't been paid, so then there was like all this talk of mutiny, and then George George Washington like busted, they're having this big mutiny meeting in I don't know where it was. Was it in New York or was it near Philadelphia? It was at a tavern somewhere, right? And Washington just kind of like crashes the party. He hears what's going on, and he crashes the party. And he wants to read them a letter, but he can't read it because he has glasses on, and then he's quoted a saying, I grow old for my country, and now I go blind. Yeah, and everyone in the room started crying, which is a good move. I mean, he he was saying, like, I gave my the best, my prompt my best years of my life, I gave to you guys. I didn't even ask for it. So please leave me alone, leave us alone. Don't you know you'll get paid what you get paid. And um, I think that's this was a great quote by this guy, Joseph Ellis, who was the one of the interviewers. That's where we were talking about like, why did these guys not give up? Like, why like why were they able to like stay together? These people, and he has a quote that's saying, he said, these soldiers fought this war basically for free, and it sucked. And the only way they won is because they never the soldiers never left. It's the only reason why they won the war. I mean, they could have left, I mean, you're never gonna catch these guys, they could have gone home. And he's his quote is saying, I don't think you can be patriotic enough about these guys. I think that's a great thing to say. Joseph Ellis, great quote. Where was this all documentary? Where was he? Everyone bailed on it. Where was he this whole there was like a his first quote? Is like his first appearance in the in the whole documentary is like being positive about the the continental army. It's the first bit of like uh romantic language spoken on it. But I thought that was good. Then the articles of Confederation talk, like John said, they talk about the loyalists, like where all these guys went. Well, like getting like burned alive, or like some of them going up to Canada. 30,000 loyalists moved to Nova Scotia, but the black loyal, the black, formerly black slaves who joined the British, they also went to Nova Scotia. The one lady got separated from her daughter who was reclaimed. So the British were leaving New York, so all these loyaltists that were in New York, and a lot of the slaves that fled their masters, they were in New York. British helped some of them get a lot of them get to Nova Scotia, but then when the Americans came in, they basically allowed the slave owners to come back in and find their slaves if they could. But they said that the black the black refugees that went to Nova Scotia part of the Treaty of Par the Treaty of Paris was that all confiscated property be returned to the colonies, which included the slaves. Right. So a lot of those, so there were still a number of black refugees that were not able, they were able to get away with the British. They went to Nova Scotia, but they weren't welcome, and a lot of them they would go and end up they would end up going to Sierra Leone in West Africa, which I didn't know. And they made a point. The 150,000 Indians that lived in the U.S. were left out of the treaty entirely. Ouch. Quote the losers in the treaty of Paris were the Native Americans. The treaty, the the best part, the best part about that was they were supposed to wait for the French to work on that treaty, and they didn't. John Jay didn't want to do that. John Jay didn't want to do that. That's a the French got we treated the French bad. I don't know why they never turned around and like just fought us.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:38

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:38

You know what I mean? I feel like we treated. We thought the British were the bigger threat. They were the arch enemies. Yeah. And then they asked us for our help and we said no in their own revolution. And then we bought we bought the Louisiana digital from Yeah. Like they talk about the Articles of the Confederation, but they can't they they get a little bit into the Constitution, but they don't go deep dive into it because I mean that's not what the series was really about. Shared sovereignty, so that was questionable. I got perfect ending for Mr. Dreadlock's by hitting on Jefferson and all men are created equal. Quote, even if he didn't live by it, I do, and everyone else should. I think is what he said. I just said, yeah, he thought Vinnie Brown thought his interpretation of what Thomas Jefferson meant by all men and created equal is better.

unknown 1:06:29

Yeah.

Cornwallis Pushes North And Lafayette Shadows

SPEAKER_01 1:06:33

And then it ends on a Benjamin Rush quote I have here. Wish we could have spent more time at his grave in Philadelphia. We were rushed from Rush. And that's pretty much it. I don't know. I don't think the fan. I think if you listen to this, I don't know if you have to watch the I don't know if you have to watch the series. Save your 12 hours. I if the only thing I would say is four of them. Give us four of the 12 hours to listen to all three of these episodes. The only reason to watch it would be to see uh Iris DeR Iris De Road. UVA's best. Iris DeRode. I'm sorry to tell you this. What's that? Iris is either married or has a boyfriend. How do you know? I'm looking at a page. 2023 Iris and her partner, Andre Nakazawa, Polish, moved from Paris to Washington, D.C., placing them close to many of the archives and historic sites at the heart of her work. She is now writing a new book in English that brings the story of different people. Uh yeah. Damn. She's got a website though. Well, what did you think about the documentary at all, John? Overall. Uh I, you know, I understand why they do all that. I understand the time period we where we live now. I did like, no, I seriously, I feel like I know a timeline of the events, and like I said earlier, I appreciated how the battle sequences were carried out. So you think you know the timeline of events? Yes, I do. Well, let's see. Let's test that to the let's test it. So PBS.com, pbs.org, they have an interactive multimedia timeline of the war. All right. John, select a theme. Each time you play, there'll be a different mix of cards. So this is always different. Let's see what let's see how you do. We got easy, just the key. This is a timeline. You put the timeline together. Just the key moment, intermediate acts, laws, and proclamations. Hard military/slash battles, expert road to independence. Hard. You want hard the military battles? Okay. Can't do it, can't do expert, huh? Okay, so this is you get cards. This starts with the middle. I don't know how we're gonna. This is gonna be somewhat difficult to do by uh just audio, but battle of monmouth is the center, right? So you're saying before or after. Okay. Okay. Battle of Stony Point. Is that before or after the Battle of Monmouth? Before. Nope. Battle of Stony Point was a year and a month after. I don't what was the Battle of Stony Point? I do not know. George Washington orders General Anthony Wayne and 1,350 men to recapture Stony Point on the west side of the Hudson River under the cover of darkness and trying to make as little noise as possible. Our officers and men behave like men who are determined to be free. Mad Anthony Wayne. Talk about him. Okay. The siege of Yorktown. Was that before Battle of Monmouth or after the Battle of Stony Point? After Stony Point. Yes. Arnold raids Richmond. Was that before the Siege of Yorktown, before the Battle of Stony Point, or before the Battle of Monmouth? Before Yorktown. And after the Battle of Stony Point? Yeah. I guess that's him as a British soldier, huh? Yes. France joins the war. Was that before the Battle of Monmouth? After the Battle of Monmouth. Before the Battle of Stony Point? Or after the Battle of Stony Point? Or before the siege of Yorktown? Before Monmouth. France joins the wars before Monmouth? Correct. The French and Indian War. Was that before the French joined the war? Was that after the French joined the war? This is a tough one. Real tough. What is it? Before. Okay. Battle of Quebec. Okay. Is this before the French joined the war? After the French joined the war?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:43

Before.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:48

The Battle of Utah Utah Springs. I don't know that one. Was it before the Battle of Monmouth? After the Battle of Monmouth? Before Arnold reigns Richmond? Before the siege of Yorktown. After Arnold Raids Richmond. After Monmouth. It's after Monmouth and before the Battle of Stony Point. Yeah. Ooh. That's September 8th, 1781. It's after Arnold rains Richtown. While Spain takes back Pensacola. Oh, this was like. Galvez, they talked about it. Yeah, General Nathaniel Green's leadership and coordination of the Southern Militia leaders had forced the Bruce to abandon a surrender post across the south after losses in Hove Kirk's Hill in 96. Green fights and loses another major battle. Burgoyne surrenders. Was that before the French joined the war? After the French joined the war? Before the Battle of Quebec? Before the French joined. And after the Battle of Quebec? Yes. Yep. 69%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:02

Good. Good.

Feint On New York And The Road To Yorktown

SPEAKER_01 1:13:03

You want to do expert? Sure. Road to Road to Independence? Sure. Do one more here. Okay, British take savannah. A new flag? Is it a new flag? Before or after the British take savannah? What do you mean new flag? I don't know. That's what it says. After. I have no idea. You think it's after? Yeah. I don't even know what your question. I think it's like they made the they made the new the the con the flag for the colonies. Oh, before. Yes. New flag means almost a year after declaring independence, Congress adopts a new flag for the United States with 13 red and white stripes and 13 stars. Its maker is unknown, and while later Arkram shows it in a battle, there is no evidence that the Continental Army ever float during the war. Arnold raids Richmond. Familiar? Before the British take Savannah or after the British take Savannah? That's a tough one. After. You think that's after? Yes. Siege of Savannah. Siege of Savannah. Is that before the British take Savannah or after the British take Savannah? Gonna go with uh before. It's after. Wait, the siege? Wait, what? French Admiral Destaing Destaing appears at the mouth of the Savannah River, joining forces with Southern Patriots who have already retaken Augusta and are eager to recapture the rest of Georgia. Oh, they put a siege on Savannah. Oh, it's the American siege on Savannah. Yeah. First Battle of Saratoga. Before a new flag, which is June 14, 1777, or after a new flag, which is June 14, 77. Or before British take Savannah, December 29th, 1778. What was the question? What was it? Battle of Saratoga. First Battle of Saratoga. It was before it was June. It was September of 77. So whatever it was. So it was after a new flag. Stamp Act. Was it before a new flag? After a new flag. What did we go with before? Second battle of Saratoga. Watch ourselves. We got tripped up before. Is it before the first battle of Saratoga or after the first battle of Saratoga? Wait, what? Is the second battle after the first battle? Or before it? After the first battle. Correct. French and Indian War. Before the Stamp Act? After the Stamp Act. It's gonna have to be before. Provisional peace treaty. Was it before Arnold raids Richmond or after Arnold rains Richmond? The woodbat, what is it? The Provisional Peace Treaty. After. Got one wrong. I have I've done this a couple times at 76%. I haven't gotten a perfect score. Think we can try to get one? Last one, yep. Expert again? Yep. All right. France joins the war February 6th, 1778. First shots of the war. Before, or is the first shots of the war before or after France joins the war? Before. The Boston Tea Party. Is that before the first shots of the war, which was April 19th, 1775, or after the first shots of the war, which was April 19th, 1775? One more time. The Boston Tea Party. Or after April 19th, 1775, which is when the first shots of the war were. Before. That is correct, I believe. By two years. I don't know why you had to think so much. Here's one. The Boston Massacre. Was it before or after the Boston Tea Party? It was the Boston Massacre was before. By uh four years. Three years. The Battle of Stony Point. We've already had this one. Was that before the French France joined the war or after France joined the war? After. Alright. The Siege of Yorktown. Was that before the Battle of Stony Point, which was July 15th, 1779, or after the Battle of Stony Point? The Siege of Yorktown was after Stony Point. The Declaration. Was that before the first shots of the war or after the first shots of the war? After. They get you tripped up. Correct. The Battle of Camden. Did we talk about the Battle of Camden? Yes. That is when our boy Horatio Gates gets pants, correct? That's correct. Is that before France joins the war or after France joins the war? That is after. Now, is that before the Battle of Stony Point, which was July 15th, 1779, or was it after the Battle of Stony Point? That's a tough one. Before before. Let's think about this. Battle of after. You think? Yeah, I think it's after. The Battle of Camden was. I'm gonna say 1780. Yeah, I think so too. Big, big. Last one, last one. Oh, this is actually an interesting one, too. Battle of Camden was August 16th, 1780.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:22

Okay.

Siege, Surrender Rituals, And British Politics

SPEAKER_01 1:19:23

Articles of the Confederation. When were they passed? When they actually were ratified? It just says Articles of Confederation. After. After what? After Camden. Before the Siege of Yorktown? Yeah. This is the last one, dude. You sure? You sure it's not? After Camden before Yorktown. You sure? Yes. Yorktown was September twenty eighth, seventeen eighty one. I think Maryland ratified by. Oh, dude, not even closed. Oh no. Wait, it's not. Oh, it didn't. It was like 1777. No, it passed. They didn't all ratify it. I couldn't read the back. It like went to our score. It was we were way off. That was like when they were written, I guess. March 1st, 1781 is when Maryland ratified it. Well, then you would have lost. That would have been after the Siege of Yorktown, I think. I forget now. Now I forget. No, I guess that was August of 81. Siege of Yorktown was September 1781 to October 1781. Well, we couldn't get a perfect score on the PBS quiz. Kem Burns has his own brand. Well, fans. It was fun. Did you have fun talking about it, John? I did. Did you have fun watching it? I did. I had fun being in studio. It's a long it's been a bit of a marathon for us here, fans. It's three o'clock in the afternoon. We started we started up around 11. Yep. So it's been four hours of talking about a 12-hour, which I think was good because I was saying we usually go over the time that it runs. But I hope we gave you a nice little synopsis of the timeline of the American Revolution with our own twist on it. A little twist. It was fun. I mean, I would never watch it again, but yeah, I know. I I would you there well as we always do when we do a review, would you recommend the fans watch it? If it's all you got to watch to reference the American Revolution, yes. What would you prefer they watch to learn about the American Revolution? Liberty Kids? It's probably more factual. Come on, no, it's not. Don't come on. It was pretty factual. Go to a battle site and then go to the visitor center. There you go. Watch their 30-year-old documentary they have there about wherever you are. There you go. Live it. Live it. I love it. It was fun. I enjoyed it. I enjoy talking about it. All right, fans. Well, I don't even know if we have any fans anymore. Well, that's it. That's all we got. I'm beat. See ya, fans. You got anything to leave them with? Bye bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:58

And we say bye bye. I got hairy legs.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:02

Oops.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:03

Come on, man.