144: We Watch Netflix’s Abraham Lincoln And Debate The Real Story

A Sicily puppet show somehow turns into Abraham Lincoln, and it makes more sense than it should. We start with travel stories from southeastern Sicily, including the island’s famous marionette tradition where knights clash, lovers scheme, and the violence is real enough to make you think of The Godfather. That detour turns into a ridiculous movie pitch about two Sicilian puppeteer brothers getting mistaken for Mafia hitmen, and then we use that same “how stories get built” question to dig into Netflix’s Abraham Lincoln documentary. 

We talk through the moments the documentary nails and the places it feels massaged: Lincoln’s brutal childhood scenes, his rise in Illinois politics, and the hard pivot into slavery and Frederick Douglass. From Fort Sumter and the tense trip to Washington, to the decision to suspend habeas corpus in Maryland, we keep coming back to the same issue: what does a crisis let a president do, and how much of that becomes “acceptable” once the history is written? 

Then it’s Civil War strategy and personalities: Bull Run as a day out for spectators, the revolving door of Union generals, and the constant friction between Lincoln and George McClellan. We also unpack the Emancipation Proclamation as a wartime document, the myth making around Gettysburg, and the eerie calm right before Lincoln’s assassination. If you like American history, Civil War debates, and documentary reviews with a little chaos, hit play. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves Lincoln arguments, and leave us a review with your spiciest take.

Transcript

DJ Intro And Catching Up

SPEAKER_01 0:48

I like the new intro.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Wow. I had no idea my co host was actually a DJ at heart. What do you mean? The way you were working that soundboard.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Remixing?

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Over here. Because I'm seeing you in the flesh. A little bit of uh features from DT and J B. Who's J B again?

SPEAKER_02 1:11

I feel like he's a forgotten hero.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

Come on, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Oh, that JB, of course. The one and only.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

We're back. What have you been up to?

Sicily Trip And Puppet Theater

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Going on any trips lately?

SPEAKER_02 1:34

I've been abroad. I've been around. Just got back from a nice long week in Sicily. That's in Italy. How was it? It was a good time. A lot of history. A lot of pictures. A lot of pictures? I took a lot of pictures. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Went to see you saw a lot of pictures.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Nope. I took a lot of pictures. I went to Syracuse. That was the town we stayed in. For the whole week? Did you learn anything? I did. They have a were a running Greek theater that they still use during the summer. Um, a lot of Greek history, Roman history. A lot of Greek history, a lot of Roman history. Syracuse, New York is named after it.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Wow. Wow. Wow. Fans, you heard it here first.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Um Yeah, we went, we cruised around. I'd been there before to southern to southeastern Sicily. I'd been before. So it was like going back, kind of reminiscing a little bit. It was fun. A lot of good food.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Did you see any puppet shows or anything?

SPEAKER_02 3:07

We did see a puppet show.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

How was that? It was good. You want to give the fans like a history of the puppet shows?

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Uh yeah, so Sicily's known for their puppets.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

I don't know if anyone's like marionette puppets?

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Like puppet puppets? Yeah. Big tall puppets. Yeah. And they basically do these storytellings of kind of old, kind of like Charlemagne and the knights and kind of King Arthur sort of tales, and they just basically reenact them. It's all in Italian. And uh and you went to one of these shows. I went to one of these shows. How long was it? It was probably like 30 minutes. 30 to 40 minutes. And you didn't understand any of it? No, but there was a lot of context you could take. Yeah. Um prince loves woman, woman kinda loves prince, princess to fight for honor of woman. And uh so it's like a kid's thing. No, it's for adults. Seems like a kid's thing. There was a kid in the audience he was talking before the show. I was getting a little nervous. About what? Just rambling on. Um in in Italian? Like, was he Italian? No, he was American, I think, I presume. And no, it's uh if anyone's ever seen The Godfather Part 2. You know the scene? No. When uh Don um when Vito Corleone when he goes to kill Don Chuccia, no, the Don in New York. Have you seen the movie?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

I think so. Okay. Yeah, I definitely have, but I haven't really seen it in a long time and I don't remember it although it's long.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Long film. It's a very good movie. There's a scene though before he killed before Vito Corleone's character played by Robert De Niro. Yeah, this is the flashback. Yeah, he flashes back. It's before he kills his like his first kill is like the Don in the local neighborhood of New York. Yeah. And he's like supposed to be like the mafia in town, but basically Vito realizes that he's a phony and he's a fake. And so like he's following him. Like Vito's walking along the rooftops, and this guy's walking in the street, and he walks up to a puppet show, and that's like what they did in Sicily. And he said it was too violent, too violent, and it was a pretty violent show. But it was a win and roam. It was a it was a win and roam kind of situation. We went, it was fun.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Cool.

Pitching A Puppet Mafia Comedy

SPEAKER_01 5:48

What's the backstory behind that?

SPEAKER_04 5:53

Do you remember?

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Um don't remember all the details now. Rick Steves had a write-up about it.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

No, it had something to do with we John and I went to see a movie in the theater. I was down, I was down there, and we went to see a movie, and then we were thinking, like, how could we how could we make a movie about Italians? Something like that, and then you just fed it into ChatGPT, and then it spit something out about a pep puppet show.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

Well, we just thought could we come up with a better concept for a movie that other than Bus Boys? Yeah. And I and John couldn't. And John couldn't. And I basically the concept. I thought, what if you could tell tale that kind of mixed in like slapstick comedy is kind of like what you'd be going for, but kind of imagine that these like two Sicilian puppeteers, brothers, who were like all they've done and all they've known their whole life, because it goes back generations and generations is being puppeteers, but then they gotta get out of Sicily. And this is a time like the I guess the turn of the 20th century when all the Italians were coming over to the US. A period piece. Period peace.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

And oh no so far, very funny.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

No, because we were watching another show. We were watching that what was the mafia show we were watching? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's how we tied it in. Yeah. The show about the five families. The five families, and they were like, at one point in the no, I guess it was like the 50s or 60s, they started calling over Sicilians from actual Sicilian zips to come in. And I said, Well, that would be funny if like they ordered in, like, what if like Italian mobsters here ordered in like what they thought were Sicilian hitmen, and what they somehow ended up getting were like two brothers who were puppeteers who like had feigned that they were hitmen because they had to get away from the overbearing Sicilian mother. That was the concept.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yeah. And then what happens? They come over and mama follows. Mama finds they leave. No, what happened what do they do when they come over here? They accidentally kill like the mafia boss.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Because they're putting on a puppet show here for the mafia boss, and through through just a really odd happenstance, they end up strangling him with the with the puppeteer court with the puppet strings. Uh-huh. And then they have to.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

But then they have to walk him around. They were like walking him around town like weekend at Burnie. I think I think your exact uh input to Chat GPT was make it a movie about like it's kind of like the Godfather, but kind of weekend at Bernie's.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

We get at Bernie's too. I liked better anyway. So who was in that? I forget the actors. I think it was the same two guys in both of them. I don't know, they weren't. I was always well.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

So, of course, I was giving John like a guff about like why would they be puppeteers? And then John said, Because that's what they do in Sicily, everybody knows that. And then I said, Everybody doesn't know that. And then he responded with a little a zoomed-in logo of the godfather that has the the logo of the godfather has the puppet hand. Yeah, and that was his proof. That is the proof. Then, of course, then he goes over to Sicily and of course has to send me a picture. I'm sure you were sh happier than a pig in to send that picture over. Even went to a museum.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Went to a puppet museum. Puppet museum? Yep, saw back, saw where they made the puppets. Oh, yeah, you did send me that. It's a whole thing. I just think you think that's a worse concept for a film for a slapstick comedy in 2026 than Busboys?

SPEAKER_01 10:07

I think it's not very funny.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

It could be. What was funny in the cell over when David Spade and Theo Vaughn were talking about? What if we're two bus boys and we want to do that?

SPEAKER_01 10:18

I'm not coming on here to talk trash on Theo Vaughn. I liked the film. I'm just lying to the fan.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

I thought it was good. You're not on the floor.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

I got my dad to go.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

And what'd he say?

SPEAKER_01 10:37

He had some words. I'd wait till VOD fans. I don't know. I think it might already be available, but I don't know. And that film was good. That film was to be called Zips, I think, wasn't it? That movie was to be called Zips.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

We had a couple posters printed up. Um thank you to our friends over at ChatGPT slash Gemini. And we'll see what if we get money. We'll see if we can get some traction. Maybe we self-produce something.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Um maybe when maybe when like AI gets sophisticated enough to be able we could just input that and it would make a full feature film in like 30 seconds, then maybe it'll be made.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

I look forward to it.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

I don't think it's a terrible idea. I think it's horrible.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Fans, let us know what you think. I think you have to watch the five families documentary and see the guys that they were calling over and just imagine.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

I think that we were gonna do a podcast on the five families and we just didn't do it. Is that what was that was that the last time we were trying to do something? I think you just told me to watch it and I did. It was good. It was on that, it's on Netflix. Segue, that's what we're on the talk about. I don't

Netflix Floods The Feed With Presidents

SPEAKER_01 11:53

know if fans have noticed. I know Andrew S, one of our fans, noticed that um Netflix. I don't know if it's because of the 250, the big two, the big 250 coming up for America. Or it just happens to be it's gotta be the reason. Um I should have covered my mouth. Thank you, Mike. Um why are you looking at me like that?

SPEAKER_02 12:30

No, I'm not. 250th anniversary, and they're just spitting out every presidential documentary that's been made.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Yeah, any like any war documentaries, you know. So basically they release I remember seeing that they were gonna come out with a World War I documentary, and I was like, oh, that'll be interesting. I watched it, it was good. It's called The Great War. Recommended. I don't think it's something that we should cover on the podcast because it was pretty just war heavy. You know? Mm-hmm. Not not like, you know, it was kind of it was interesting, but I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

Well, there was a lot of crushing civil liberties at that time to get us into the war, but it's neither here nor there.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

They didn't cover that in the documentary, I don't think. Bagged Woodrow Wilson for that? Well, a little bit. Okay. He kind of pants John Pershing a little bit, told him, you better make it seem like America's doing this on their own, not following orders. So we get a seat at the table, so I can I can put out my 14 was it 14 points? They brought that up. They brought that up. I'd love to know what our 14 points were. I think yours were pretty bad. They were very fuddy duddy. Fan of the show, Claire M called John a Fuddy Duddy as my host. Co-host. Co-host, yes. Well, I'm glad she's listening to the show. Anyway, uh, so they released a couple. They released the list of just presidential documentaries. They all seem to be, there's no like production company. So, like, you know, it doesn't have like, you know, like CNN presents or PBS presents. There's nothing like that. It's just, I don't know who put these together.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

I don't think they were Netflix.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Well, they're not Netflix specific because they're old. They they kind of got put together in like the early 2020s, I think. Like probably 2021 through 2023. Um, so I don't know who put it on, but like it all seemed they all seem to be the same producer, production. You know, it's like it's very it's it's just bold letters of the president's name. Now, we're gonna that's so it's Washington, then it's Abraham Lincoln. I say that because Abraham Lincoln's the only one that has both names. I don't know if that's because Lincoln, the movie with David Daniel Day Lewis about Lincoln was called Lincoln. So I don't know if they wanted to confuse people. Yeah. Maybe could you could you imagine like wanting to see the Daniel Day Lewis version and then clicking on this one? Although I did see the Daniel Day Lewis one. We'll get into that. Um so then they have that. So they have Washington, uh Abraham Lincoln, Grant, Teddy, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR. Is that all that they have?

SPEAKER_02 15:30

I think that's it. There's no one in between Washington and Lincoln. Telling. Yeah. Um, I think that's it.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

And then they did, well, but they did just recently after this bats, they've they just released a six-part documentary on our boy Thomas Jefferson. And now I don't know how long I don't know how well I don't know how long those six episodes are. These episodes on the ones that we talk that we're talking about, this Lincoln one, the episodes are long. They're Ken Burns level long.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

About an hour and 40 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Yeah, all of them. Yeah.

Skipping Washington And Choosing Lincoln

SPEAKER_01 16:10

So talking to John and I was like, hey, why don't we do this, you know, do our usual, like just discuss it, you know, what however we kind of have been doing, like the death by lightning and the you know, the fans seem to be really classic. Fans seem to be really picking up on that kind of stuff. They like they like our reviews and discussions. So um wanted to, so I figured like, why don't we just do that? Let's do one, you know. But I've said like I think the fans, I think the fans are tired of the 18th century. I think that I think we've I think we've kind of beat the 18th century American 18th century, you know, to death to some extent. So I said, like, why don't we skip Washington? We skipped Washington.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

I also wasn't feeling the trailer very much.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Yeah, well, I will say that I did watch some of Washington. I was just gonna watch it for funsies because I knew we weren't doing it for this. I was gonna watch it, and it's interesting. It's an interesting, it takes. I think I don't know if I told you, it takes within the first 30 seconds of the whole thing, he's called a slave owner. That's a record.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

That might be a record. Maybe it was a competition early 2020. Let's make documentaries of these guys. Who's the first one who can mention the S-word?

SPEAKER_01 17:25

I mean, it was unbelievable. I was like, wow. I mean, you know, just like, yeah, it's like the intro to Washington, like his fourth adjective was slave owner, I would say. Um, and then I was kind of I was kind of half watching it. I fell asleep, like I kind of put it on when I was gonna I like to put stuff on when I when I'm going to sleep.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

So um that's a good sell pitch, sales pitch for the to the fan. Wouldn't fall asleep to it.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Well, I mean, you know, it's that kind of stuff is kind of easy to fall asleep to, you know, just like document whatever. And I knew the story pretty well. I feel like I know Washington pretty well. We kind of beat him, we beat it to death a little bit here, talked about it. And I mean, I don't know the intricacies, but I know the generalized, you know, his whole plight. So I like made it to I don't know, I made it, I made it through his Fort Necessity blunder where he started the uh the uh Seven Years' War whoopsies. Um and then kind of like got through like when he was kind of getting big timed by the crap, like you know, then he was trying to get like his offices. Yeah, like kind of he was kind of bummed about that, but then he met um um Martha, and they have Martha's the the lady because like it's what's cool about these documentaries that they have fans, if you do want to watch them, which I think they're probably worth a watch. Um I watched them all consecutively for this Lincoln one because I ran out of time. I was doing that last night. It's tough to watch you know five and a half hours of it or however long that is, but um it's they're good because they're like partially like documentary style, and then there's partially there's a lot of like acting, and it's like pretty good at I mean like I think it's not like your typical like high school middle or middle school like teacher drags the TV into the classroom and gonna play you some nonsense or like a like a Williamsburg type movie, you know, John D. Rockefeller Jr. production. It's not really that level. It's like the actors are pretty good. The whole time I'm watching it, I'm always wondering like how many of these actors thought like this is my big break. Like, oh, I got like you know, especially like in this one, like the guy who played Lincoln. I'm kind of like, oh, was he like, I'm playing Lincoln, just like Daniel Day, just like Daniel Day Lewis. I got the big, I got the big gig. You know, I feel like they always I don't know where they find these people, man. He had the physique for it. Yeah, he was pretty, he was pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

He was convincing enough, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Yeah, he did a good job. But anyway, the the the Martha of Washington, babe, babe. Really? Oh, babe. I was like, wow, you know, pretty awesome. And George was like, you know, he the because they were kind of like it was kind of like, you know, not to go too off topic because we're here to talk about Lincoln, but like Washington, what they really painted his picture was like, yeah, he really hit he really hit pay dirt when he met Martha because he was nothing before, you know, he was like, you know, one great quote by one of the interviewees that made me laugh was um he was raised in a single family, just like Barack Obama. It was like unbelievable. It was unbelievable. It was unbelievable. I could I was like, what? It was so funny. That was funny. That made me laugh, and then um and yeah, and they were kind of just like pinging this picture, like he was like, he was kind of born wealthy, but then his dad died, and then they kind of lost their wealth. You know, we kind of know Washington's story a little bit, but then like Martha's rich and he marries her, and kind of that's how he gets on to um Mount Mount Vernon, where he live, you know, where he lives, right? And like so he kind of got all so he they kind of made it seem like he was like, Yeah, he hit paid, you know, he kind of like married money, and maybe that's the real American dream. I don't know. They were kind of people, yeah. It's not bad. But um Bill Clinton was an interviewee on that one, which was pretty cool. He was giving his two cents. Colin Powell was on there. Um yeah, some real freaking heavy hitters. Just like heavy hitters. Um what the heck's his name? The general, the army general during like the freaking Operation Iraqi Freedom. Petraeus was on there. Pretty wild. It was weird, you know, and it's like I look I like I said, I watched the first like episode. Episode and a half kind of half watched it too. So um I didn't really get too deep into it, but that's the other thing about these. They have some pretty interesting people that they interview that aren't it's not just historians, right? For better or worse.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

And even the historians they choose to interview are questionable.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

It's pretty fun. It's fun.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

It's a fun Netflix show. Yeah. If you want to like watch it and I would say maybe still fact check even what they say.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Well, obviously fact, but so anyway, talking to John about this, I gave him the option. I said, like, listen, let's skip Washington. You know, we're through, we're done. America's the country. We're done. The revolutionary period. I think seeing Highland burn down or whatever, that whole Highland trip really just kind of I I honestly think it spoiled the founding father of Jen. Like, just for me, it's like, what really are we doing here? So I think I'm I think that was the moment where I'm like, I've done all that I need to do in that generation. And I think the fans were sick of it. I think Brian Kay had mentioned that we needed to get out of the 18th century.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

Skipping the second generation, though. We might have to do a look back at some point. We talked about Jackson. Yeah. But we get there's the great triumvirate. That's a big skip. Who's uh skipping a miss? Henry Clay. We talked about him a little bit. John C. Calhoun and Daniel Webster. We talked about them a little bit. Yeah. Harital. I think we left a lot of meat on the balance. You think so? A lot of meat, especially going to the southern. Well, we'll get there. This isn't a talking about.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Yeah. We're just hitting the hot the hot points. So um anyway, I gave John the option. I said, like, well, do you want to do? You want to do Lincoln, Grant? I think those might be pretty cool to do. And he picked Lincoln. And I was kind of surprised. John has an opinion about Lincoln that I think he just likes to be contrarian and likes to be like, well, everyone else loves Lincoln, so I'm just going to point out all of his flaws. Um, so just my response was like, are you going to be able to be uh on behavior behaved when we talk about Lincoln? And he said, Yes, I think so. So I I gave the I gave the actor credit who played him, so to start. So I guess we'll see where we're at. So um so yeah, so we're just gonna like I said, I watched it. John, why you how long how did what was your watch? What was your viewing experience like?

SPEAKER_02 24:39

I watched it over three or four days.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Maybe an episode a night or something.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

An episode a night, got through, started the second one. And then I was just like, I know I gotta I gotta get through this here. Third episode was a slog a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

First episode was tough too.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Second episode was good. But this first one's good because it gives the backstory. Yeah, we'll get into that. So no, it was a very straightforward viewing experience I had.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

It was fine, it was good. It was it was I feel like it was a good mixture of like it wasn't as dry as Ken Burns, but it also obviously wasn't like a bunch of just beat you to death facts. Yeah, it wasn't that, but then it also wasn't like super Hollywooded up. It's like fine, it finds itself somewhere in the middle.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Yeah. Production-wise, it was a good, it was a well done show for three episodes.

Lincoln’s Childhood And Frontier Hardship

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

So like let's just get into I gotta I gotta say, uh, it kind of it starts off for me, it starts off with a banger. They open up the scene, they open up the show, like the first chronological scene. I don't know if you caught up on that, is Lincoln as a boy and his dad's making him build his mom's coffin. That is crazy. Like, not only make it, but he was the Lincoln was the one nailing the lid. Like, here, son, put the nail in your mother's coffin. Literally, get to work. And he's like, Do you think mom will do you think God will know mom's in here? And then dad's like, I don't know, get to work. That was that was wild, man.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

And then from there he just went without supervision for the next five years until his dad grew up with it.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Dude, his dad left Abe and his sister in like they lived in the middle of nowhere, like right on the border of the frontier in Indiana. And like his dad just freaking left. He's like, I'm gonna go. I I I have a note here that says, think going to the store for cigarettes and never coming back is kind of what had happened with his dad. His mom died, and his dad's like, I'm gonna go get a new wife. I guess that was maybe a thing. And he left, and he left, and then they they show they show Lincoln like putting setting snares in the trees. And they said he was basically scrounging for food. Yeah, looking like an animal, I think they said. He looked like an animal. I don't know how they have any factual evidence of that, but Yeah, it was just him and his sister for a while, and then they the next thing they cut to was Well then his mom then his dad shows back up, his stepmother shows up, and like his stepmother was the one who um who like liked Abe, who who started bringing like wanted to educate Abe, because I guess she came from the big city. I don't really they didn't really go too much into the street.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Well, they said she didn't read, she didn't know how to read, but she like valued it. So she was a big influence on that.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

But it was funny, like the dad, so the dad left Abe for like five, like I don't think it was was it five year old? I think it was just like one seat, like like I don't know, winter probably probably the hardest time of the yeah. I don't know. He left him for a certain amount of time, comes back with this woman. Here's your new stepmom, and like they show, and the thing is like the first thing he gets like, there's a lot of work to do outside. What are we doing? You know, he's like already putting Abe to work. Like this guy was like a worker, and a jokester. He was a jokester, but also I think a quote was he wasn't good at making money. Somebody said he was good at like he was a good carpenter and he like a farmer, like he was a handyman, but he wasn't good at making money. He was like always trying to get Abe to do work. We need him in 2020. But Abe was like not doing wasn't into it. He was more into the books, and the dad couldn't, he was like, it was one of those like father-son, like misunder they were just totally misunderstood.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Two ships passing in the night.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Yeah, and uh at one point Abe was like started reading books, and that's how he was learning, and then the roof was leaking and it rained, and it rained all over his book that he was borrowing from like the neighbor. Mr. Crawford, I believe. And then his neighbor was like, That's this book's 75 cents. All right, you gotta do three days of manual labor to pay for this book.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

I believe my notes here are Mr. Crawford is an asshole. 75 cents for three days' work.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

And then so he was like, so they show Abe like hoeing in the field, and then he comes back, and then uh Abe's mom was like, That Mr. Crawford is such a jerk for making you do that. And then the dad's like, three days of work, nothing to show for it. But a book. But yeah, but then and then Abe was like, Well, I got to keep the book. He's like, Books. The book learner is not gonna do any good for you, kid.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

And then they cut to, and then that's when they start talking about his humor. They said Lincoln was known for the the jokes he could tell and all the his dad. Well, he got it from his dad.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Well, yeah, and they showed his dad what was the d I didn't write down the joke, but it was Oh, his dad said, No, but first of all, when his dad this is my note, I don't remember the exact quote, I was kind of just like quick writing it after the fact. Um the kid, and so his dad, so he had the book, and that's when Abe was like, look, I get to keep this book, and his dad said, put that book away. You need to start breaking rocks first thing in the morning tomorrow. Like, just like you gotta go back to manual labor, and Abe's just like, oh man, I gotta work. I said, Abe, not a fan of manual labor, starting to see some similarities with John. It's kind of a running theme, it's kind of a running theme throughout here, I will say. Um you think I'm him? Well, you'll see. I've I've have a I've I've I've drawn a couple lines, I've connected a couple dots. Um, but adolescent, I have uh yeah, so then they like kind of fast forward to adolescent Abe. So like they leave, they leave it like the joke, like but John the joke was like a pastor was giving a speech and a lizard crawled up his leg and he was like hopping around, and like then the woman was like, if that's what God does, I don't want anything to do with this church or something. She thought he was like, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

And Abe was like, that's the funniest thing I've ever heard of my life. And then it cuts to him aged, he's older now, like teenager, teenage years, and he's telling the joke to his friend.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

His friend's like, well, you still the first time, and it wasn't funny. This is the you know, it's not funny the 15th time, and then Abe's like, it is funny, it is funny, and then freaking he gets picked up to go work. Well, and then and then his uh, and then like as as this is going on, this guy comes up, he's like, Where's so-and-so? He's like looking for Abe's cousin. He's like, I need a ride down the river, I need someone to take these barrels down to the river down to New Orleans down the river. And the guy was like, I can't, my wife's pregnant, sorry, dude. And then Abe's like, Abe says, I'll go. To which this guy, Mr. Ofoot, maybe. Um, Gabe says, I'll do it. To which Mr. Ofoot said, This isn't a job for a jokester.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

And then he says, I'll take all three of you. But then I thought to myself, didn't that one guy just say his wife's pregnant, he can't go?

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Yeah, well, I'm thinking they they kind of pulled the wool over his eyes and like they they said, Well, all three of us go, but then I don't know, it was his chance to see society, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

And this was basically Abe's first breakout into the big, the big, big world.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

Hey, maybe as well to New Orleans.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

That girl Caroline Janney, I think her name was, the blonde with the pearl necklace. She was hot. The historian. Yes. She was like the Irish Iris dire Iris Iris Doreaux, Daroes of the Kent Burns documentary. She was pretty hot. What was her name? Caroline Janney, I think. J-A-N-N-Y. She said whether to admit it, whether they admit it or not, the whole country, including the North, benefited from slave labor. Boom.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

Also at the University of Virginia. One of their colleagues.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Wow. I bet they tear it up. I bet they tear it up. They go out on the town.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Just go to Miller's every weekend.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Yeah. Yep. Wow. We missed out. Um, so then like then Lincoln moves to uh what town did he move to?

Illinois Politics And Mary Todd

SPEAKER_01 33:06

I forget what town he moved to, but he moves to like a town. He tells his dad. Illinois? Yeah, yeah. He moves to Illinois and he tells his dad's like, all right, when he got back from New Orleans, his dad's like, all right, time for you to get back to work. And then Abe's like, and then Abe's like, no, I'm going to be a store clerk in some town. Go to be a clerk. Yeah. It wasn't Springfield, but his dad's he'll be back in a year. You suck, son. Yeah, there's definitely some some beef going on. And his stepmom was encouraging. Mm-hmm. So then he shows up and like then they show that he had to like he had to like fight club his way into like the town. Like the town was run by like a gang. The town was run by a gang, and like Abe had to like cut him wrestling somewhere in the middle of the street. And they they were like, how long has this been going on? And they're like, I don't know, a couple hours. Abe had a headline. They were like on a whole four-hour long like wrestling match, and then they're like, Alright, you're cool. And then he was like allowed to stay in the town. Is that what happened?

SPEAKER_02 34:05

Gotta get your stripes somehow.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Something like that. So then he gets a job, he go, he goes in to look for a bed, but he doesn't have any money. And he meets his friend. His friend who he shared a bed with then.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

What was that guy's name? But they said back then there was more people than bed. So that's a that's what the exact quote.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

So uh Josh Speed, Joshua Speed. Yeah, they like shared a bed together and then Joshua's and then like later on he like left and like Flincol was like heartbroken.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

No, he was a no because that happened because he just got he just left the Illinois House of Representatives. He didn't get re-elected, I don't think. Oh. I don't think he was just bummed because his friend was leaving. But I think both happened. Yeah. He was a real He was in and out, in and out of elected office.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Yeah, and this is yeah, and this is where he meets his wife in this town. So he so like he kind of like it seemed like he yeah, it seemed like it was like he was in this town, and then I think he started like studying law, and he kind of like got to be like he had a partner in this town, like a law partner. I forget who his name was.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

He served he served first in the House of Rep in the Illinois House of Reps.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

Well, like he was in this town, he was a clerk, and like all of a sudden he started getting this good reputation because like these politicians would come in. I think seems like what would happen was like he like Lincoln was well read and he was smart, and but he was in like this like hick town. And I think these politicians would come in and try to like trick the townspeople into voting for them, and that because they were smart, because they were slow, they would come in from the big city and try to say, like, I'll do this, I'll do that. And then but then Lincoln knew more and was able to be like their voice, right? Of like, oh, like like the example that they had, this politician came in, he's like, the train's gonna come here, and then Lincoln's like, it's not coming here, it's going to Springfield. They're not gonna bring the train from Springfield to here. Yeah. He's like, We need the river open, more water access, yeah, and our goods to do it. And like everyone was like, wow, this guy's so this guy's great. And they like, so that's how he started. Then they were like, You gotta run for state representative or whatever, and that's how they that's how he got into politics. Yeah, yeah. Which was that's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

And then they started, he got he met Mary Todd Lincoln, who apparently his arch rival in Illinois was also trying to court at the same time, Stephen Douglas. Yeah, he was trying to court Democrat? Democrat.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

Yeah, he stole his girl from a Democrat. He was a Whig. Lincoln was a Whig at the time. Big Whigs were big infrastructure guys, they were the Federalists.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

Party of American Clay. No, they weren't Federalists, they were and Mary Todd Lincoln.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

Mary Todd was a big Henry Clay fan.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

National Jeffersonian Republicans. Yeah, whatever. We'll talk about it on a future episode when we talk about the Whigs.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Yeah, so she was a big Henry Clay fan, and he was into it. He was into that that scene. Lincoln.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

Internal improvements, high protective tariffs.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

And then and then here's first look at uh Greg Jackson, another stud interviewer, and stud interviewee. And cruise operator. I listened to a podcast, fans. It's not a bad podcast. I I don't want to recommend other history podcasts. I feel like you guys should get your history just from us, but there is a pretty good history podcast on American history called Amer History That Doesn't Suck. And there's this this more, this Mormon, it's this Mormon professor from I think he's the University of Utah. I don't know, some college, some professor in Utah. Uh he's tries to make history cool. It's a version of cool, but he's on here, he's looking like Mr. Cool. He's kind of like a hip, he's like a he's like the hip teacher. This Greg Jackson who's being interviewed is kind of like you could imagine being like the hip history teacher of in like high school. He's got like kind of like a a cool swag to him and like uh like a nice suit, you know, well spoken. And he runs a cruise. And yeah, and he runs, and every every year, or I'm this might be the first year he did it. He does he does like tours where he goes, he does like a live a live show, and this year he did a cruise where you could go on and uh or I it wasn't the first year because we there was there was footage from previous years, and me and John were gonna go on it, but we decide not to. I don't know if we would have fit in there. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

There was other cruises we could have, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

So he's being interviewed, he's cool. I like I like him. He's kind of geeky, but like he's not a fuddy duddy. Um, I so then my next note is I've already fallen asleep. Fall asleep, woke up. I dozed off for a little bit. I woke up to John Brown talk. I wrote

John Brown And Frederick Douglass Detour

SPEAKER_01 39:10

I woke up to them talking about John Brown. So, like, were there they're already so now they're just talking about like just the status of the country with slavery, like course they're talking about slavery because Lincoln was not an abolitionist, but he was anti-slavery, which is a big difference back in that time. Um, and so she started so it's just this woman I have here woke up to the John Brown talk. Oh boy, quote, either a maniac or a saint.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

Obviously a maniac, but they're trying to This interviewee was smitten with the guy with the fat with the father.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

If you remember John Brown from our from our Harper's Ferry talk, I'm sure. She was absolutely smitten with this guy.

unknown 39:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Edna loves John Brown even after he hacked five people to death.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

That's my it was like they were very proud to say that he killed five five slave owners, right? Exclusive, yeah. Isn't that what isn't that what I forget how they worded it.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

She just had a smirk and grin on her face. Like that's what you get. I'm trying to see what else. I got Frederick Douglass here, came out of left field. Not left field, we know like he and Lincoln definitely had you know a lot of communication during that time period. But he just randomly became the center of attention. Like it just like cut from Lincoln hard and it was just like a lot of things.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Yeah, well, it cut from Lincoln to slavery talk like hard, yes.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

Yeah, so in that way it was like the Ken Burns documentary.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

But it was pretty funny. This the the Frederick Douglass stuff was pretty funny. They show a depiction of him escaping to the north, I guess. Yeah. And how they had him escape his girlfriend, I think, who was free. I think she was a free black. Yes, I think so. Got him a little navy uniform. And this navy uniform, it looks like a uniform that like a toddler would wear, like, I don't like it look, he looked like some kind of version of like John John at in uh at at JFK's funeral procession, you know? Like a grown-up, a bigger version of that, like just like a real goofy costume.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

Which is just that was just the uniform.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Yeah, but it just looked, it just looked funny. He had his like af didn't no, he didn't have an after, he didn't have his like hair at the time. And he like she gives him papers and he goes on the train, and then they like show the the conductor going through his papers, and they have this whole scene where it's like he looks at he looks at him. He looks at the paper.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

So his like with the uniform, she managed to get him like paper, like discharge papers from the Navy that he could carry with him, and that would prove that like he was able to go north north where he needed to go. So he's on the train and he's sitting amongst other other black people, and you can just tell he's like sweating buckets, he's like all nervous, and the white conductor comes through and he's just checking tickets, checking tickets, and then he obviously stops in front of him, looks up, looks down, looks up, does a once over to the guy next to him, gives him the paper back, and then he's home free. And uh keep hearing from the rest of the show, like he they really tied him in more. I was wondering Frederick Douglass. Yeah, it was Frederick, it was Lincoln Print plus Frederick Douglass documentary.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

It was a bit, yeah, because they did they talked about like Frederick Douglass. I mean, he has an interesting story too. Like his own. He moved uh he moved to Baltimore was he living was he from Maryland? Was he in Maryland? Frederick Douglass? I think he was. I did like the quote. Like, so the the quote when she set him up with that sailor sailor sailor uniform when she said if you get caught, they're gonna send you down south, which was an interesting tell of like, yeah, even like be way down there. Yeah, like you don't want to go down, like you know, that's what they said being sold down the river, right? Like you don't want I think we've mentioned that before, how much worse it was.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Yeah, he was from Eastern Shore of Baltimore. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Yeah, and then I think like he moved he got pulled from his mom when he was young, and then like the the woman the was it the wife of where he was living, where he was serving, or just whatever, didn't know that you weren't supposed to teach slaves how to read and write. Yeah, it was just I guess it was illegal, yeah. And then she didn't know that, so she taught him how to read and write, and then that's kind of how he worked his way and realized the value. And like I think that was how he was able to realize what they how they were keeping them down by not teaching them how to read and write. Because you start reading like literature and like your world gets opened up. I mean, imagine that. Yeah, imagine like being at being at a point where like you your whole existence. is just like manual labor. Like no imaginative. I mean you're you're not you don't have an imagination. We got to that earlier today.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

I was gonna say you drew that line.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

But uh you know just having nothing because you if you can't read you can't read you have no way to learn any like you're like you're you're just a machine. It's kind of a crazy thought to have it was dangerous.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

They knew the value of it I guess you couldn't teach them because they knew the value of it. Yeah. But

Election Drama And Fort Sumter

SPEAKER_02 44:35

there were people other people that taught theirs.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Well yeah probably but but anyway so then they go to the then they go to the election and then I thought the my what was funny I thought as part of like the dramatic part of it that so like he gets elected um you know they kind of it's kind of a similar vibe as like um um who was the guy who Charles Godot killed Chester Arthur no uh chester Arthur James Garfield yeah James Garfield it's kind of the same thing like the primary of like oh you know kind of the whole the whole thing was the same like he was like a long shot in the convention and like it was the same thing getting the nomination he got the nominate and then he got the nomination similar way of like oh he was more people liked him I think his what he said was I just need to be I don't need to be everybody's first choice but I need to be everybody's second which is to be the compromise candidate. Yeah which is what he ended up being then he ended up winning I think his some 11 year old fan sent him a letter telling him to grow a beard which is why he did smart oh that was interesting kids know they end this episode with like the battle the the uh attack on well I guess what would you call it the siege of Fort Sumter or the attack on Fort Sumter. Yeah whatever started the Civil War I don't know how familiar our fans are but there was a fort in South Carolina that was like obviously it was a Union fort and like the confeder it was a federal fort. It was a US right it was a U.S. fort occupied at this point it was occupied by the US Army and the South had seceded and kind of South Carolina seceded and they asked for it back because it was their property. Yeah and there was this whole like standstill kind of and they kept trying to like make peace I think but then ultimately they gave him like an ultimate whatever they shot they they fired the Confederate army the Confederate states attacked Fort Sumter was like the first shots of the Civil War.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

You skipped the whole part about how he got to DC that's a big part of the story.

Baltimore Threats And Habeas Corpus

SPEAKER_01 46:37

He wasn't even like welcome they can calm down open up your mouth you have a microphone I'm just saying you're the co-host right act like that.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

So rather than take the most direct route from Illinois to get to DC after the election he had to go from like Illinois through Indiana Ohio north up to like Erie Pennsylvania and then through New York and down all the way to Baltimore and then when he got to Baltimore he had to put on like that goofy outfit somebody dressed him up it wasn't a goofy outfit he changed his hat and they were acting like this'll hide you.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

He's like 6'7 and like it's like that was kind of bizarre.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

And he got roasted in the newspapers for showing up like in the under the cover of darkness as the elected president.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

So you needless to say he wasn't that popular well with in Maryland I think even in the well even in the north Pennsylvania didn't vote for him initially yeah but like Maryland was there was the rioting going on in Maryland which is why he avoided that well that happened after oh yeah well that's what they that's what they open episode two up with forgot about that. That's where the first casualties were my former workplace oh really yeah I worked on threads well they so they open up episode two hot off the press with the writ of habeas or the getting rid of habeas corpus. In Maryland well just like because of Maryland no or he did it it was Maryland and Pennsylvania first would Maryland and Pennsylvania they suspended the that's what a lot of people say was his biggest flaw as presidency no interesting don't you think taking dictatorial powers like yeah I'd think so why don't you explain to the fans what taking away someone's writ of habeas corpus means.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

Well habeas corpus is Latin for show me the body which basically means effectively in law you can't be held without being like formally accused of a crime so by suspending the your right of habeas corpus so the right to be charged with a crime and against you know if you're being held against your will you have the right to be actually charged with something by suspending that you can basically just be detained for whatever reason because it was suspended because if it's been suspended.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

It doesn't have to be seen before a judge.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

Yeah you don't have to be charged with an official crime yeah you could just be sent to jail and not be so he suspended it in Maryland because at this Washington DC was they were worried about so with Fort Sumter so before Fort Sumter only the deep south and South Carolina so like only how many five states had seceded four or five states had seceded Virginia Missouri Tennessee they were all still in the Union it wasn't until after Fort Sumter that they ended up seceding because of the because of what happened and with that Lincoln and the Republicans were very worried that Maryland might go that way too because there was a lot of Confederate sympathy. It was a slave state but because Washington was effectively you know surrounded surrounded it was I mean Virginia had just seceded and Maryland may well have seceded that was a the strong impetus for why he needed to suspend the writ because he wanted to basically start putting Maryland government officials in prison before they had the opportunity to vote on secession. So that seems like a very too they didn't talk about that much but they blew past that a bit just a little bit they also blew past uh West Virginia becoming a state didn't talk about that that part of the state had a lot of union a lot of union sympathy.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

So they just split it so they just took that part of it literally just said we'll take they kind of side skirted the wall there but yeah so they open up with the Rid of habeas corpus and then they go through so then they go through like um Bull Run they talk about that a little bit the first battle of bull run which is kind of the first official battle and that's where like people went to go like spectate it.

Bull Run And Watching War Like Sports

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Yeah swatch with the baskets and the picnics which is crazy to think about but also not so crazy when like I guess it I guess you if you've never seen any kind of depiction of war I guess it would be kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

I think the people that went there that day we were we were talking about people forgetting those that fought in World War II. Something tells me like that's certain people's take nowadays on war. I think we're in like a picket basket phase of you think so people thinking about how what war is like there are some people would like not go and watch a battle but like be like well it can't be that bad and then when they have to actually see it.

SPEAKER_01 51:35

Yeah or like they or they they think that like America like I think a lot of it was also like we're gonna crush them. Yeah you're not seeing movies about it like we do like we have now I think that's kind of like what they were saying in there like in the documentary. You don't see movies about it? You do now but you didn't in 1861 true so I guess it's different you don't know what to expect. I mean imagine not having any idea what to expect to see I also imagine just weekends are pretty boring back then. Well yeah would you that was a question I had here would you go watch it? Would you go watch a battle?

SPEAKER_02 52:11

Well consider well if I had a down if I had a down day I didn't have to work I probably would it'd be different it'd be like I guess it'd be like going to something it's like well why not?

SPEAKER_01 52:22

How often do you go isn't that much different than going to a UFC fight? How often do you get invited to it? Do you get free tickets?

SPEAKER_02 52:28

If someone gave you free tickets to win you have tickets to the Battle of Bull Run so you hypothetically if you needed tickets if you needed tickets and someone was selling them for 20 bucks a pop to go see the Battle of Bull Run yeah I'd probably go I don't know though create a demand for it it's supply and demand someone's there's a demand you gotta go it's the hottest show in town I don't know if I'd have a situation where I'd feel guilty that I should be part of it.

SPEAKER_01 52:56

And I don't know like if I was an able-bodied male I don't know if I'd necessarily be cool with going I also think a lot of the people that went thought it was going to be a one and done for sure one battle this thing's gonna be nipping Lincoln included I think everybody did right it was a huge so spoiler alert the Confederates win they like crush them don't they yeah or the the commander for the Union army was trash wait who was it Erwin McDowell was the guy no well who was the other guy the the old man that was a great scene he was the advisor that was what was the on he was in the battlefield commander what was his name Winfield Scott Winfield Scott they have him in the movie they have him in this documentary literally they're in the war room and it's like it's the war secretary Lincoln and then they're like talking about like what to do and they have this guy Winfield Scott snoring in his chair and they're like kind of making this they're made he's like literally starting this and like they're like right Winfield or whatever and he's like well yeah yeah yeah yeah what he said it's like a classic like it was it's very funny the South took all the real men of the country yeah a lot of them a lot of them you know and it was very slim pickens as far as like who's a I mean Robert Lee was the big one of like the union would have loved to have him he was kind of torn because he was in Virginia yeah he was torn but he was recruited Lee tried I mean what Lincoln wanted to recruit Lee he went to Arlington House just over the Potomac which I happened to just be at last weekend sold a room was cool he went over to basically ask him can you will you join my arm will you be the head of my army and this was before Virginia I think had officially seceded or just after they'd seceded and he's like yeah no I'm gonna leave with my state yeah but even like all the what I it just you felt like all the best men were left for the South and Lincoln was left with like a bunch of bozos.

SPEAKER_02 54:56

A little

McClellan Versus Lincoln In Command

SPEAKER_02 54:57

a lot of like Irish rebel I Irish and German rebels from the 1840s ended up filling a lot of his general ranks cap uh veterans of the the wars of 1848 in Europe.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

The biggest one that took a big part of this documentary was our boy George McClellan Lil Mac's a big fan of his I think it's funny they hated each other going back it's a bunch of back and forth the Army of the Potomac was you know the Potomac River like the east the eastern west the Virginia Maryland uh theater of the Civil War I guess right and George McClellan was running that he organized it pulled it all together after Lincoln called for 75,000 volunteers and McClellan and Lincoln just kept telling McClellan to attack and McClellan just kept saying like nah I'm good well he was an engineer by uh trade.

SPEAKER_02 56:00

Okay. So he takes his time and he gotta make sure he got everything right yeah how that how that worked for him really well in the Mexican American War apparently well because he was he was distinguished in the Mexican American War. He worked under Winfield Scott when Winfield Scott wasn't falling asleep and was a lot younger so he's a he's a follower not a leader is what it sounds like no he was nope that's not right. No why not he was an officer in the army because he was he graduated second in his class from West Point let's not paint the man let's paint him with the true whole picture. Okay George B McClellan I'm not saying he was a great general in the war no he like definitely pussyfooted around but he served with distinction in the Mexican American War as an officer in the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers where his performance earned him multiple rapid promotions and vital experience that later influenced his Civil War tactics served as an engineering and sapper officer reconnoitring routes building roads and laying artillery under fire. So he was like a logistics guy sure probably not maybe as any work with Robert E.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

Lee during that time too but do you think are you defending him boys it might have been boys who?

SPEAKER_02 57:17

Him and Lee maybe they had a little secret gentleman's agreement I won't attack you know just kind of like I'll slow foot this I'll slow I'll slow roll this whole thing I'm saying that he was a bad union general for what he organized the whole army I mean he put the army together so maybe he wasn't good like in the field but but like when when Lincoln tells you to go and you say nah I'm not following orders.

SPEAKER_01 57:41

Well that's not yeah that's not great but I guess that was the first war where we actually had that like the commander in chief had to actually well that's another thing that's another way that Lincoln is very much like you how what happened so McClellan's fump fumbling around in the Potomac you let's see us Grants going getting drunk and tear like taking names and kicking out by the Mississippi right like he's winning a bunch he's actually doing stuff but then um but McClellan's kind of whatever and then like they're going through all these different generals and they like John said there's like a rotating door of like general after general and none of them are working out. So Lincoln decides you know what I read a book I read a book on the war I know how to I know how to run an army so then he starts like getting way more involved in like the planning of the thing and that's like that makes me think of you John where you're just always like I read a book about that so I'm an expert in it.

SPEAKER_02 58:44

Well maybe in 200 years I'll have a monument to me too you think he got one what would your monument be for the podcast?

SPEAKER_01 58:52

Do I have to get shot in the head to get it or what probably I'm just saying so uh so he kind of like started like that that was a pretty wild scene in this thing where they had him like taking the boat out to like scope to scope Newport Virginia was that the start of the peninsular campaign I think it was like at the end was it?

SPEAKER_02 59:20

I think he was like this we're not getting anything going here like I'm gonna go and figure this out yeah because they were the Confederates are still in Norfolk Virginia very close like the lines are very close to one another the end between the north and the south I think Lee thought McClellan was a bozo.

SPEAKER_01 59:40

I think he was just like I'm not scared of this guy I don't think I don't think McClellan scared Lee at all no I don't think so yeah but you like that get off your phone.

SPEAKER_02 59:55

I want to see I'm trying to learn about the relationship before I'm trying to under I'm trying to validate yeah classic you're always trying to validate your BS feelings fuddy duddy they were former colleagues so what? Engineers I want to open up what you're saying he wasn't scared why wasn't he scared of him? Maybe there was something in their past working together that he was like this guy ain't Yeah probably and what do you think that was what is it? Let's dive deeper they both served on Winfield Scott's staff Lee acted as a mentor and preceptor to McClellan in the engineer corps so he knew what he was like as a student taught him meaning he served McClellan served directly under Lee's command on reconnaissance missions. Anything that's interesting at all I don't think enough Americans realize that these guys worked together. Like they were actually I think they did they like certain like ate together. You don't think Americans I think Americans some maybe shared the same beds together if there were more beds than more people than beds. True true no I don't think your average American I mean maybe you're a historian but I don't think your average American was the North and the south and that's it. One had slavery one didn't which wasn't also isn't true.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:15

I think that's why we're here to set the story straight I think there's more um I think some people think that the war happened there was a lot of there's more significant time between the state seceding and the war starting you think there was I think people think it was a longer time.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:34

Kind of happened like right away didn't it south South Carolina seceded the first state to secede they seceded as soon as Lincoln was like elected right but then the remaining states so a year I'm saying it's a year but then not all the states like Virginia didn't leave until Fort Sumter so there were still that was at 61 I mean you're talking a year 61 yeah talking a year.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

Within a year it happened and the Civil War started pretty quick. Like there wasn't much time for like a changing of the guard is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:09

I still think and it's off topic well this is a quick point of it I do think part of the issue is that they formed a confederacy. I think that's part of the detriment in the historical narrative like if if South Carolina maybe was the only state to secede and it was the only state to have seceded for like three years I think historically people would be like oh South Carolina became its own state it became its own country again? Oh like what? But here they had mutual respect. Even as enemies Lee highly regarded McClellan's scientific approach to war and organizational skills. In 1862 after Abraham Lincoln removed McClellan from command Lee expressed spoiler alert you already said it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:49

No I didn't he said he got rid of them all I don't think whatever he stated regret saying I should have done more I should have taken advantage of it more.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:00

Lee told his generals that he quote understood McClellan so well.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:03

Yeah I'm sure meaning he could have just bulldozed the army because McClellan's a bozo it's alright anyway so you know they go to that um Lincoln starts getting more involved hanging out by the telegraph room I really feel like people were probably like the military people were probably really sick of Lincoln. I'm sure like he probably was like I'm wondering how much of it you know the historians are like oh he you know he he more more so than he had to he he had a hands-on approach and like kind of praising that but I bet like the I'm wondering if the well I don't know but he did have a bunch of bosos in the military but I wonder if it was a lot of like okay yeah sure we'll do that and then just kind of like leave it go like just kind of like make him think he's making an impact on the ar on the in the army but like he wasn't what did they say they went to go visit McClellan 57 times?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:59

Well McClellan's opposed I mean I don't blame that they must have really hated he was a Democrat they must have really he probably didn't want to be in the war in the first place but he was still a soldier first Lincoln and McClellan must have really hated each other really to the politically first okay great but then if your boss is telling you you politically don't agree with your boss and they're telling you to do something you might be like no you're not a general you're a politician you're a lawyer that tells really jokes but it's also his boss you're a lawyer that tells really lame jokes you're a jokester I don't take it's not a job for a jokester.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:33

Maybe maybe that's maybe that was the theme of the doc maybe that theme was set the theme of the documentary was set when they called him a jokester.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:41

They also said McClellan's troops loved him.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:42

So it's like if your troops love you probably yeah when you're when employees love their boss what do you think? You think the boss is doing a good job?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:50

Julius Caesar's troops loved him and he be he got he stole he took power from the I'm just saying not saying it's necessarily right not saying it's maybe McClane's like well it's it's not constitutional so I'm not gonna listen to you but I doubt it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:07

I have a note saying that Edwin Stanton was like was following Lincoln they had Edwin Stanton like Edwin Stanton was a secretary of war. Yeah he was following Lincoln around like he was a shadow just kind of like his little like chubby mini me. Yeah for sure he was like he was like um I I said it he was like the guy from uh Peter Pan Captain Hooks what was his mini Smitty what what was it was it Smitty Smithy I remember that because there was a bar in Salsolito California Smitty's like I wouldn't have been and it was it was named I after it was like a beachside town yeah wait assume why would you assume this no I don't know if it was named after but I just read I knew the name of the bar and I thought about the Peter Pan I thought about every time Captain Hook said his name.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:55

Smitty's that's how he said it. I'm looking it up

SPEAKER_01 1:06:00

But it very much looked like he was always fought. Like when the when Lincoln like was like, oh, let's go. Like they're like, dude, we can't, we can't land at new in in New Where was it? We can't land anywhere. And Lincoln's like, well, do you think about here? Do you think about here? And I could just like feel everyone being like, oh my God. I don't feel like doing it. And like they he takes him somewhere and they like land. He's like, Yeah, see, what about here? And the generals are like, oh, I guess this'll work. And he's like, yeah, this isn't that big of a deal. And like Edwin Stanton following around, and it just reminded me of like his little hooks, little Smitty, isn't it? No. Oh, wait, what? Smee. Shmee. Mr. Shmee. I think he called him Smitty. He was like Schmee in um in uh Peter Pan. I don't know. Okay. Um I did notice that.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:58

Mr. Schmee. Oh Smitty.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:02

No, it's not.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:03

You were wrong. This guy's a stud.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:09

I know. That's like, I mean, is that not Edward Stanton following Lincoln around? He was always by his side.

Emancipation As War Policy

SPEAKER_01 1:07:20

So then like it goes to the Emancipation Proclamation, and they kind of make it seem like they don't really touch on the whole like the Emancipation Proclamation was a war measure. I think the only person that said that was my boy Greg Jackson.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:35

In your in this documentary? Yeah, I think so. Obama did Obama was interviewed, and he did make a point.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:42

Oh, speaking of Obama, what when I was talking to you, John, about this documentary, like about this earlier this week, and you were like, oh, he was you were telling me, oh, there's a bunch of historians that Brian McClellan, who I think we've friend of the show. Clan hand. What did I say, McClellan? I say McClellan. Might as well be, might as well be. You love him just as much.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:02

I like the Irish, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:04

Um, I he's like, yeah, there's a bunch of I'm like, oh, really? And I'm like, oh man. And then I was like, you know, as we talked about before, I was like, there's some real heavy hitters on the Washington documentary. Like, was there any other heavy hitters on this one? And John's like, no, none that I can think of. I'm like, oh, okay. And then like I turn it on, and like five minutes into this, Barack Obama shows up, and I'm like, why did he like completely you completely forgot that part or left that out. He's not a historian. But he's a heavy hitter. He's not a historian. He's a pretty big heavy hitter. I did not ask if it was a heavy hitter historian. There's no such thing. There were some heavy hitters in this one, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:45

But Obama was even like, well, we think about like he did say, well, you think back to the Emancipation Proclamation, it wasn't all about equality and justice. It was like you read it, because he was like, there's a copy of it. It was an original copy of it in the Oval Office. He's like, it's very militaristic and what it's writing. It's got a lot of conditions and carve outs and this, that, and the other.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:05

But it was all about like all about war, yeah. Yeah, it was all about trying to trying to screw up.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:11

Basically scare the South into ending the war because if they freed the slaves, it would cause insurrection on the plantations, and those are plantations that weren't manned by men anymore because they were all fighting and it was just their woman and kid folk left. They didn't say that much in the document. They didn't say that either in the documentary. That was certainly a worry about it, was that it would be an insurrectionary act, because otherwise. It didn't apply to the stage.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:37

Oh yeah, and it was funny. He like met with the he met with the group of black dudes and he was like and he was like, Yeah, you know, like I wanna do it. You know, like I want to, I'm cool, you know, I want to do it, but like no one else is, bruh. So like I if it was just me, I'd do it. But like I don't think everyone else is gonna be cool with it, you know what I mean? So like that, bruh, like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:03

Who's going with me to this thing? Oh, I'd go, man, but like, what would be the equivalent of that? Because that's a that's an archetype, that's a that's a person that every friend has. Like, you think so? I would do it, man. Fool or me. But like I'd be right there with you, man. But I got this thing I gotta go to. Like, always like I love you, man, but they're out there, they're crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:28

That's what he was saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:29

Public opinion, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:30

The public, man, they're crazy. I can't control them. That was pretty funny. And then and then and I feel like all the people were just like, what? Really? He's really saying this. They they show him signing it, his hand shaking, shaking so many hands.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:45

That that's when the whole like, because the whole thing, they did say like, and they had to say it because it's the truth. The historical record can only be fibbed so much. But Lincoln, he is quoted as saying, if he could his main our boy Howard Holzer. Yeah. Is Harry sure for Howard? No, Harry sh maybe. I don't know. Howard Holzer. Harry Holzer. Harry Holzer. I guess Harold would be. Harry Holzer comes in saying, given giving it to us straight. Lincoln is on record as saying his first and foremost goal was to preserve the union. If he could free all the slaves, if he had to free all the slaves to do it, he would. If he could free some of the slaves. Yeah, he wrote it in an op-ed and a newspaper. It's all on the record. And so, but they had to massage it. They really had like through the course of the documentary, they just massaged it more and more about how yeah, no, no, he was becoming more against against slavery on moral grounds. Yeah, they had to like basically take him down the river or up the river, where some way along the river from like he was morally not for it because he was anti-slavery because of political stuff, and then he became more of a moral crusade. They really massaged it in pretty hard.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:04

So, like after the Emancipation Proclamation, they're kind of making it seem like they kind of make it seem like, oh, everyone's free. Like it's like except for you know, like up north, you know, and it's whatever. I don't know. And then so then they they panned another dramatized scene where there's an African-American gentleman like walking down this dirt road with like a pick over his shoulder, and he's like, you know, just like minding his own business. I don't know if he's like going to work, coming back from work.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:29

I don't really know what he's he was in Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:31

It was before getting yeah, he was in Pennsylvania, but like the Confederate army is starting to get cloving moving moving more north, which is kind of this is this is how they introduce you to that. He's like just walking down the street, minding his own business, and all of a sudden, like he got he gets this look in his face and he's like looking down the road, and like they show he's like, Oh no, and they just like turn the camera around, and it's like the entire Confederate army coming after them on this road.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:54

They weren't even coming after them, they're just like marching up the road. So how he didn't see them initially, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:59

And he's like, Oh, I gotta get out of here, and like turns around and just slowly turns around, hoping they didn't see him.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:06

He's it's like a bright middle of the day in July, it's super sunny. Black guy walking down the street, and he just like drops his pickaxe, turns slowly, turns around, starts like slowly walking, and then before you know he's like high stepping out of there.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:19

Yeah, like he's running away from like a coyote or something. They're on his like they're on his tail. Pretty wild.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:24

And then they didn't cut back to that guy, then like you didn't see him again.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:27

No, that's that was the same guy who then in the get in the Gettysburg battle. Oh, it really? Yeah. They just kept following his arc. I well, I don't think what was the arc? I don't really even know. And then like

Gettysburg And Mary’s Carriage Fall

SPEAKER_01 1:13:38

that, so then like they just go to Gettysburg and like so. Then episode three starts at the end of Gettysburg, and when Getty Lincoln finds out about Gettysburg, and um, sorry. Lincoln is like in the telegraph room, like I said, he stays in the telegraph room like while while like you know, he's getting like they're getting he like us, you know, some technology that obviously didn't have before you're able to get like reports back from the field as you're going, so you kind of have like a live, like you know, as live as you can be at that time. And Lincoln's like sit in there and um he's like waiting to hear back. He's like day three is how they're kind of painting it, like day three of Gettysburg, things are kind of tense. Pickett's chars is going on, like it's it's it's heated, and some guy go comes up, he's like, huh, Mr. Lincoln? He's like kind of like a soft-spoken guy in the back in like in the back of like this crowd. He's like, Mr. Lincoln. He's like, Mr. Lincoln, and then you know, Lincoln like looks at him and he's like, Your wife fell off of her carriage, and she's unconscious, and you know, someone unscrewed the bolts of this thing, and he's like, Really? And like Lincoln's just like, really? You know, he's like, Yeah, he's like, Is she okay? They're like, We don't know. He's like, I can't deal with it, it's tough.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:52

Send my son to her, send Robert to her.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:54

Yeah, yeah. He's like, he's just like, I don't, I I have in there. I say, cry for attention. We'll never know. Lincoln doesn't give a f you think if it was John Speed, what was his name? Josh Speed. Joshua Speed, yeah. I bet. I bet, I bet.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:11

We shared a bed, we shared a bed together when there were more people than beds. We gotta go.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:16

Yeah. No, he might have. I he had it his bond was tighter with Joshua Speed than Mary, I think. But anyway, she they they thought that that's why they thought that it was an attempt to kill Lincoln. Yes. But like all they did was loosen the bolts of the chair on his carriage and she fell off. That'd be a pretty lame way to try to kill him, but I guess like if you want to frame it as an accident. Yeah. Well, and they just took an assumption that that's what happened.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:45

Well, yeah. Maybe they just came undone poorly made the poorly made cart possible in 1863.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:52

Yeah, no, I know. That's like it was kind of a stretch, I thought, but That was another guy who's always at his hip.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:57

He had like a personal aid. He woke up in the middle of the night to start like rambling about something or other.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:04

But then he did show up, but then he did show up uh to Mary's bedside and was kind of like, all right, you're good. But she was all like bruised up and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:15

But then Stanton came right in. Didn't Stanton come in then?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:18

And like give me a big one. Then he told him about Vicksbury. He's like, yes, see you, see you, Mary. Doesn't he leave and he's like, You got this right? What's his kid's name? Robert. You got this right, Robert? I gotta go. I can't stay. He was kind of like real Edward Stan. If Edward Stanton shows up and Lincoln is there, yeah, he's like, deces. Come on, Snee. Mr. Snee. Um, so that was that was kind of that was kind of funny. And then um, and then I have I fell asleep for a bit, but I woke up to the Gettysburg Address. Feel like I can run through a wall right now. I want to do that after the fish watery utterance, that then they fast forward to dinner with his sister-in-law, who was a rebel. Yeah, that was intense. That was it was kind of their way of this documentary trying to say, why can't both sides of us get along? And like Lincoln would have been that guy. Yeah, he was the bridge. Yeah, like I don't know. I don't know if that was the case. It's stretched, but like I guess this is probably true. His wife's sister was from like Alabama, yeah. And her husband died in as a Confederate soldier. Yes. Uh why are you giving me that attitude? Not giving you to yes, you are. I'm not giving you attitude. I'm I'm listening actively. And then they so they had her over for dinner. It's like in the middle of the war, and then like there were other people sitting there's like, why do you have this woman here? She's a rebel, and then Lincoln's like, why can't we all get along? It's okay that she has different opinions of mine, or something. Wasn't it something like that? Like, we're all American, all the we're all Americans talk. I don't know if he said that specifically.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:58

Well, who were the they were generals of his at the table? Yeah. And then they were just a lot, they were trash talking back and forth. But that was a really lame way to kind of say the whole, like, this is tearing the whole country apart.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:11

Well, then they were like kind of surprised that the Emancipation Proclamation didn't have as much as of an impact as they thought it would. That was part like that was a so they were like, why like why and then I think Frederick Douglass was like, it's because people probably don't know that it exists. So then Lincoln told Fred sent Frederick Douglass down to like try to spread the word of the Emancipation Proclamation into the South South, and he's he's quoted as saying, like that boy John Brown did. And I say, not a chance he said that. There's no way Lincoln would have said that.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:52

You think? Uh I think I don't think Lincoln maybe was a big fan of John Brown.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:00

That's what I'm saying. You don't think he was. No. Right, I know. That's what I was like again. I think that was a bit of a trying to tie, you know, current ideologies, and like you look back at like John Brown, like, oh, he was a hero, you know, all that stuff, trying to tie all that into this documentary. I mean, you know. Like I said, it's between the two of like dry like Ken Burns, but also a bit Hollywooded up. It's right in between. And then McClellan running against him, trying to pull the ultimate F you.

Reelection Stakes And The Assassination

SPEAKER_01 1:19:35

So McClellan was his biggest his his his uh adversary in the next election, and Lincoln's like, I gotta win, I gotta win reelection, or I or everything I did is gonna go away.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:48

Because the Democrats were running on a basically ending the war immediately. So the Democrats would have won, they would the war would have been ended.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:56

Yeah. Yeah, so he wanted to keep up, and then I fell asleep, and then that was it. I didn't watch any more. So what happened at the what what else happened?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:08

What happened at the end? Went to go see a show, went to go see a little play.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:12

Well, what you got any notes for the rest of it? What happened during the election?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:15

You haven't really put much into the election of 1865 before?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:27

Yeah. It was contentious. No not no notes. It was contentious. No notes. Do you have any notes left for the whole documentary? No. Not one. You fell asleep. You watched it. You don't have one thing written down. He wins. You know why? Because you're like, I know all this. I can do it. I don't need to prepare. I don't I didn't watch it. I can't give you the recall. Talked about Petersburg. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:05

And the siege at Petersburg. Eventually they break through, get to Richmond, burn Richmond down. Lincoln's there two days later. We know that because we he was in the White House, the Confederacy of the White House two days after the White House of the Confederacy. Surrendered. Tomato's um about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:33

What is it? This is exact fans, this is exactly how the peninsula campaign talk went in the at the White House of the Confederacy uh uh tour.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:48

I mean Lincoln won he won that election. Nothing special about it. The fact that he won against McClellan? Well McClellan wasn't good at winning things, so I wouldn't be expected. I also don't know when Lincoln got rid of his vice president. Who's his vice president? His first one? I don't know. Who was it? Hannibal Hamlin. Okay. Replaced eventually by Andrew Johnson. I knew that. First man to be impeached. They didn't talk about the Lincoln movie that, but the Lincoln the Lincoln movie follows the Thirteenth Amendment. And that I know was a big part of the la his last few months in office was making the emancipation permanent by having the Thirteenth Amendment, which would get rid of slavery everywhere. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:41

Well, how did they cover the so fans, if you don't know Abraham Lincoln then went to a theater like shortly after the how many weeks after the Civil War ended? Two weeks?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:53

Was it even something like that, yeah. Short, very short period. April. It was April. Well, it was shot in April. Wasn't it April 65? Yeah. When was the war ever over? I don't know what Apphematics was, but that didn't end, that wasn't the official end of the war, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:14

Anyway, um so like when the tree you know, whatever. Um he went to a theater and he got shot by our boy John Wilkes booth, jumped jumped from the jumped from the balcony and then ran. Escaped to Maryland, actually. Did you ever go to Ford Theater? Is it cool? They still have shows there. Oh, that's cool. But I noticed was it like I I saw previews like leading up to like, oh, next episode or whatever. Like, was it was it like uh Lincoln was like, I don't even feel like going to the theater tonight. I'm not in the mood, and then Mary was like, let's just go. No, they just picture it. They just they just appeared there. Oh, they didn't have like a lead up to it at all. You sure? Because I'm pretty sure I saw that in the previews.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:06

No, in the previews they were in the box. I saw the previews with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:11

Yeah, no, I'm pretty sure though, it was like, oh. I don't even feel like going to the theater tonight, Mary. Not in the mood. I think so.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:23

I think so.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:30

And then she whispered something well that's what happened. She whispered something into his ear, and then he smiled, and then he got shot.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:37

But you don't know what she whispered?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:39

How would I know what she whispered to her? I mean, she could have told people. I wish you were dead. Maybe she said that. What? Maybe she said, I wish you were dead.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:57

Maybe she Lincoln asked Douglas to recruit a team of scouts to travel into the South and help as many enslaved people as possible escape to the Union lines before the new administration took over. Because he thought that he was going to lose. Douglas agreed to the proposal, but because Lincoln ultimately won the 1864 election, the emergency mission was deemed unnecessary and was never put into action. Missed that part of the documentary, huh? Maybe you could have taken a note on that. Good job, John. So the only part of the documentary that I have no we have no comment on as a group of two podcasters is the one that I didn't watch, but John watched, but he didn't take any notes. So sorry, fans. We gotta leave you at uh when when did I fall asleep? Oh, when Mary Lincoln almost died falling off of her carriage. And that's the end of the documentary because John didn't finish watching it. Sorry fans, I thought maybe he would have been able to pull the weight for just a small portion of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:05

You miss him? Who? Lincoln. What do you mean? Like he got the shot.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:10

I don't know. I think it

The Lincoln Mask School Story

SPEAKER_01 1:26:11

was funny. I think it was interesting timing uh Beverly U sending me a uh picture of myself back in like sixth grade when I like while we were talking about this and going like it was just a couple days ago. She sent me a picture of me uh in like I think it was sixth grade, it was like somewhere in middle school time, sixth, seventh, eighth grade. We had to do a book report on somebody. I don't know if it was anybody in history, if it had to be American history. I know a couple fans of the show, I know somebody did um John D. Rockefeller. Um, I'm not sure what Andrew S did because I went, I did go to middle school, grade school with him. Yeah, he showed up to middle school and second grade the first day of school, didn't wear the right uniform. Never forget. Um but he so I did die, so you had to read a book. The the the the assignment was you read a biography on somebody, then you uh dressed, you dressed up like them, or it was just a mask. You made a mask of the person, and then um you went in front of the class and you gave like three quest three facts and tried to get the class to guess who it was.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:23

Why are you laughing so hard? You remember so much about the detail, but you what what three facts did you give?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:28

I'm getting there. Why are you laughing? Because you said, okay, go ahead. I just this is all I remember. I didn't read the book at all. I think it was a picture book, like not a picture book as far as it was a really long book. And it was like it was like a photographic history of Abraham Lincoln. I think it I think it was called. Let me see if that let me see if I a photographic history or biography, a photographic biography of Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln. Lincoln a photobiography? Maybe? Powell's books. Temporary unavailable. Um A Newberry Award winner. Lincoln, a phobiography. Yeah, this is it. How many pages? 160 pages. Well, it felt like 600 pages when I was in sixth grade. Released in 1989. Anyway, I didn't read any of it. I've and I think it was like the day before. I'm like, I gotta learn about Lincoln. So like I've made we're a very creative group of people, and it was like it was all like an at-home project. Sure, I waited till the last minute, and my mom's idea was to get like a clear mask, like a clear, a clear mask, and uh put a stovetop hat made out of uh like a poster board, a black poster board, and then like just a cotton ball chin beard. And then that was the whole mask. That was a whole thing, and then so then I did that, and my mom sent me a picture. I look paldy in it, and I don't I I either hated it immediately, I was like, this looks ridiculous, because the mask was like, my mom's like, I'll get you, I'll get the mask. She shows up with these things, and it's like I can't even explain this mask. It had like I don't even know where you would use it, but it it had like makeup in areas, like it was just a it's a really weird-looking mask, it's really creepy, and I was like, I don't know why we I don't even remember why we did that. I think because it had to be a mask. I couldn't just do the stovetop hat and the beard. It wasn't part of the rules, it had to be a mask. But how do you make a mask for Abraham Lincoln? So I didn't read the book, so like I got the mask. The mask was ridiculous. I was pouting. I don't remember the picture I'm pouting, and I don't know if I'm like legitimately pouting or if it was kind of like uh one of those family moments that you laugh at even at the time. Like that, like this is so ridiculous, but like what am I gonna do? I don't really know if that's um if it was one of those moments, but I might have been legitimately pouting. I look ridiculous in this picture, and uh my mom just happened to send it to me this week, so it was kind of funny. But John, to your point, you have three facts you try to get trying people to guess. I didn't read it at all. So I'm like, I had no facts. I forget like how I even I am my I and like you but like after every one, somebody had to guess. So if you didn't have to give all three, if you didn't know if somebody guessed it, I guess my fact my facts were I had a son named Tad who died when he was a boy. Yes. Who covered it? What did he die from?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:57

Uh just uh typhus? Typhoid fever? Was it typhus or typhoid fever?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:04

Well, I might as well get her.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:05

Well, they said it was from the water. They said some they suspect he some bad w drinking water in DC.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:14

The cup debated him was like tuberculosis. Yeah, I think he had an he had another son who died.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:20

Who died in who died in the White House?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:22

Um wasn't that Tad? No, Tad died after the assassination. He died at 18 years old. So I probably wasn't very correct on that. Willie, no, I don't know. Anyway, I got that was one. Nobody got that one. My second fact was that I'm on the five dollar bill. Someone guessed that, and then that was it. I got to go, got to sit back down. But like obviously, that's not a fact that I learned in his photobiography that he's on the five dollar bill. I remember thinking that I didn't I never knew that Lincoln was on the five-dollar bill because I always knew him as being on the penny. And I thought it was interesting. I guess I didn't know that he was on the five. I don't know. I don't know. That he was on both? Yeah. It's pretty interesting that he's on both. But I guess Washington's on two. Also. Quarter? He's on the quarter and the $1 bill, no. Well, I guess now Lincoln's only on one. They don't make the penny anymore. I guess you're happy about that. Overall thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:33

Uh I thought it was a good I thought it was good. I thought it was good enough for the you know Lincoln Lincoln Curious. But I would recommend a picture book over the documentary. Photobiography. Photo if I could.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:49

It wasn't a picture book, fans. I shouldn't have said that. This work is perhaps the most complete and enjoyable children's book ever written. And I was like 12 that I couldn't even read it. Oh boy.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:11

And his legacy lives on.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:13

I just Russell Friedman wrote it. You know that guy?

SPEAKER_02 1:33:16

No. Do we want to give our fans a quick rundown of some of the historians, our favorite historians in the documentary?

Favorite Historians And UVA Talk

SPEAKER_02 1:33:24

Shout out to Alan Kelzo. Yeah. You're number one. You really really impressed by him. He seemed pompous. Extremely.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:34

Well, actually, what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 1:33:35

What's McClellan? When McClellan was just sitting on his rear in the peninsula. I just you know, I don't like when sometimes historians like I get it that they're animated and that's a good thing, and you're supposed to be, and they're trying to craft it's also a kind of a Hollywoody documentary, but like they can't they they act like they're there, and they're like they're the ones making the decision. And so he was behaving like when Lincoln said go, it means get going. Like he was so demic demonic that he was like the one.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:12

Well, they're not people person, I don't think. He also wouldn't look into the camera. I think he had a bit of shows. I think he was a bit in the spectrum. Yeah, I do think there's a lot of that. I think there's a lot of that going on. Did you draw a line there for me too with that? I mean, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:31

Who else? Craig Jackson? Craig Jackson. He was good. He spits facts. Kern's Goodwin. Blonde hair. Thought she had some work done. Oh, yeah, you don't like her. She wrote a team of rivals about how like the Lincoln Cabinet like didn't get along with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:51

What's going on with the UVA history department? That's where you get a history degree from. What if they have all just smoke shows working in their department?

SPEAKER_02 1:35:02

Is that you think Thomas Jefferson put that in the requirements in the charter?

SPEAKER_01 1:35:09

I'm sure he wouldn't be upset about it if he knew the legacy that is. But I wonder if that's a known thing. What if that's a known thing? That we just don't know about that.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:19

The Z-boys did it. Z Boys pulled some strings to get the most attractive history department in the US.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:36

UVA so sexy. UVA's Corcoran Department of History is widely regarded as incredibly appealing or sexy in student slang because it combines a prestigious legacy, striking aesthetics, and a powerhouse faculty.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:59

Nah. Just say you meant specifically the the looks of the faculty. The female faculty. I. Iris. The blot? What's her name? The Rhodes. The Rhodes. And Caroline. The aesthetic look of their female faculty.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:25

Including Iris De Rhodes and what was her name? Caroline Jenny? Yeah. Jen Jenny.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:44

They are the exceptions to the rule.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:48

The sexy appeal of Fellow Fabiners like Dr. Iris DeRode and Dr. Caroline Janney at UVA stems from a distinct blend of intellectual dominance, charisma, and dynamic public presence. In an academic setting, a faculty member's aesthetic is often defined by the intense confidence and eloquence they bring to their work, which translates to highly attractive persona, both in the lecture hall and on screen. I just mean their looks. That's Gemini for you. That's not Gemini.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:30

Yeah, it is. Are you using the free version? Probably.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:37

Well, fans, hope you enjoyed having us back. Do you think anything else? I'd leave him with anything else, John? I think the fans are probably dumb with us by this point. Fans, are you dumb with us?

SPEAKER_02 1:37:55

Dang.

More Oddball History Characters Please

SPEAKER_01 1:37:56

Thomas Jefferson's vice president killed Alexander Hamilton. And stayed vice president.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:07

Then had like the whole weight of the government against him at one point. Because he was like trying to conspiracy.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:12

Well, he was trying to like break off half the country. Yeah. He was trying to like start his own country out west. He must have been a freaking character. They should have a documentary on him.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:24

That's what I want to see more of. I get the whole thing about having on Lincoln, and it's not on FDR, and there's double and all these guys, but like, give me just the interesting character. Interesting people. That's what was cool about Death by Lightning. Let's do more of that. Like just keep it interesting. There doesn't have to be a moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:39

How many times are you going to do it? It can just be interesting. No, that's kind of how I got to uh let's just with like Washington and stuff. It's like, how many how many times do I have to hear the same the same stories over and over again? Sorry, fans. Like, do one on Emperor Norton. Do one on Emperor Norton. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:03

Do you want all the stuff we've talked about? Pretty much. Kind of keep it a little spicy. Yeah. Like, how many times can you talk about that stuff? I don't know. There are a cast of characters in American history, and we're not talented enough to talk about them all. So we've talked about Netflix.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:27

We've talked about decent. We've talked about every single one that we that Netflix did, which is one, but we still talked about him.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:33

John Tyler should get his own show.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:36

We talked about him too.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:37

We've done another one. RIP to his grandson. A little belated. A little belated picture variable here, fans. Harrison Ruffian Tyler. Passed away last year in May. His grandson did. At 96 years old.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:56

About a couple weeks after we we left.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:59

And we like to think that our presence there at John Tyler's house was a kind of a freeing. Like I think Harrison knew he could he could go. Like we saw it, and he just wanted to know that while he was still alive.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:13

Either that or somebody told him that I touched the lant the candlestick.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:18

And he gave him a corn and he just his heart exploded.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:24

I hired Tim! Tim, you promised me.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:30

All right, fans.

Closing Bits And Goodbye

SPEAKER_00 1:40:33

You want to leave him with anything?