On Activism, Theater, and Creativity with Cat Brooks, organizer, actor, writer, and director

Author T. Thorn Coyle speaks with Cat Brooks, an award-winning actress and playwright, who shares her creative roots and the impact of acting on her life. She discusses the discipline and community-building aspects of theater and how it has influenced her work as an organizer and activist. Kat also talks about the importance of listening and vulnerability in both acting and activism. She highlights the role of physical practice, such as going to the gym, in maintaining her mental health. Kat explores the different forms of creativity she engages in, including writing, directing, and dramaturgy, and how they each provide a unique outlet for her. She also discusses the challenges of embodying trauma in her performances and the importance of ancestral work.

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Find out more about Cat Brooks at https://www.catbrooks.org
Find Thorn at https://www.thorncoyle.com

Transcript

Thorn Coyle (00:27)
Hello everybody. Welcome to Magic, Creativity and Life. And I'm really thrilled to have Cat Brooks here today. Cat Brooks is an award winning actress and playwright. In her role as an artivist, she is also the host of Law and Disorder on KPFA and resident playwright and actress with the Lower Bottom Playas in Oakland and Three Girls Theater in San Francisco. As an organizer, she played a central role in the struggle for justice for Oscar Grant.

and spent the last decade working with impacted communities and families to rapidly respond to police violence and radically transform the ways our communities are policed and incarcerated. She is the co -founder of the Anti Police-Terror Project and the executive director of the Justice Teams Network. Cat was also the runner -up in Oakland's 2018 mayoral election facing incumbent Libby Schaaf. Cat, welcome to the show.

Cat (01:18)
Thank you. Happy to be here.

Thorn Coyle (01:23)
So I wanted to start off by asking you, what are your creative roots? Like, were you a creative child? What was interesting to you? What were your first forms of creative expression?

Cat (01:36)
Yeah, so it's actually an interesting story. When I was in fourth grade, I had a teacher, Miss Gerhardt, that was also around the time that my father went to prison for substance abuse issues. So I was acting out, as kids do. And what we normally see is like teachers, you know, suspend kids, expelled kids, they get put in special classes. That's not what my teacher did. We ended up selling popcorn.

as a fundraiser for a local nonprofit. And me and these two other boys, Jason and Jason, got assigned to write the commercials and perform the commercials at lunch to sell the popcorn. And the teacher saw something in me and told my mother about this youth conservatory called the Rainbow Company.

and thought it would be a good outlet for me. And they happened to have auditions coming up. The auditions were for the Wiz. My mother dropped me off. I marched in there. I had to sing, dance, and act. And I got cast as a munchkin. And it was off to the races. I mean, I was a dancer. I started dancing at two. I always forget that part because my dance occur was cut short in college with an injury. But yeah.

Thorn Coyle (02:38)
Wow.

Mm -hmm.

Cat (02:52)
That was it, and I was home.

Thorn Coyle (02:57)
That's amazing. You know, I was also a theater kid and theater really was my first home. Well, actually books. Reading was my first home and my first escape in childhood. But theater welcomed me when no one else would. And it's amazing to me how much my theater training has helped me even though I did not go on to do theater past, you know, my teenage years.

Cat (03:06)
Thank you.

Mm -hmm.

Thorn Coyle (03:26)
but there was something about that training that has helped me. And I imagine that that training has helped you with your organizing and your activism.

Cat (03:36)
Yeah, yes, absolutely. And when I think about, so certainly the public speaking, right. But I think also the discipline, you know, so acting was my first craft. But I often remind people, right, organizing is a craft too, that has to be practiced and you need to be trained and it is a discipline. And there are steps you take, right, to get to the final result.

Thorn Coyle (03:43)
rate.

Great.

Cat (04:06)
so, so for sure, I mean, acting also teaches you right, how to be in community with people. and, and it's high stress, high stakes, right? That's why you see so many like pop -up relationships that also dissolve, you know, just as quickly, cause it's really, you know, you're in a pressure cooker with these people, for, you know, a period of time and, and then it's over. so yeah, definitely.

Thorn Coyle (04:13)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Yes.

And I'm also struck by what you said about, you know, working with a community of people because acting also teaches you that yours cannot be the only voice, right? And of course, organizing and activism is the same. And I see organizing and activism fall down when it becomes kind of cult of personality. And I think that's true of any organization. It's true of businesses. It's true of...

Cat (04:46)
That's right.

Thorn Coyle (05:04)
all sorts of things. So what is it about working an ensemble that you love?

Cat (05:14)
I'm, I'm people that know me always, gaffaw when I say this, but I'm an introvert by nature. and, I struggle actually to, to communicate with people, you know, socially, but not when I'm right. So, so the, but not inside of the theater. so, you know, it, it's very much a safe space for me. the bonding that happens.

Thorn Coyle (05:23)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Right.

Cat (05:44)
It's a place to practice vulnerability.

Thorn Coyle (05:48)
Mmm.

Cat (05:50)
I can't, I mean, it's almost hard to describe. I mean, and now I'm thinking about it, like it's the same way I feel about the team at APTP, right? Like they're my family and it's so much, and I tell people, you know, when they come to work for us, like this isn't a job, this is a life. And these aren't your coworkers, this is your family. And oftentimes those are the only people I'll talk to for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks. Unless I'm in rehearsal and then I've got a cast.

Thorn Coyle (06:01)
rate.

Mm -hmm.

Cat (06:19)
But I'm also, so it's just, it's a place of connection. It's a place of connection.

Thorn Coyle (06:19)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, and to me, that's what creativity is all about. It's about connection. And it's about remembering that everything in the universe is acting in a place of co -creation. Right? So, concrete. Yes.

Cat (06:41)
It also teaches you to listen. Not enough to you, but like, when I think about one of the greatest skill sets that I think that I've carried out of acting, it is listening. It is my ability to sit down with somebody and focus on them. And that is actually something that is really lacking in our society. People don't listen, right? The person across from you is talking and you're thinking about what you're gonna say or how you feel or how you're gonna react, right? But it very much teaches you to listen and in...

Thorn Coyle (06:50)
Hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Cat (07:11)
the work that I do, particularly the type of work I do, that's crucial. It is critical that the folks that I'm working with or in service of feel heard.

Thorn Coyle (07:21)
Right. Right, especially when you're dealing with family and friends of, you know, people who have experienced violence. They often don't have a space, I bet, where they get listened to. So in your work, you can provide that and then figure out a way to move forward. Yeah.

Cat (07:37)
Great.

Yep, yeah, for sure.

Thorn Coyle (07:46)
So you talked about discipline in both acting and in organizing and activism. Do you have other forms of practice that form a template or a foundation for that discipline that carries you through?

Cat (08:08)
I don't know. I mean, I think probably the only other thing that I'm really consistent about is the gym. And I've had a gym membership since I was 12. Yeah. And that, for me, is my sanity, quite frankly. And it's funny, because when COVID hit,

Thorn Coyle (08:20)
Mm -hmm.

Wow.

Mm -hmm.

Cat (08:36)
I put a I just put a gym inside of the guest room of my house and then I moved out of there or was doxxed out of there I should say and put one in the house the garage of the house that I'm renting here now and the the garage filled with mold so I couldn't this is like really recent I couldn't work out I couldn't work out and that the shift in my mental health was palpable.

Thorn Coyle (08:59)
Mm -hmm.

Cat (09:02)
so much so that I was like, I can't wait for the landlord to fix this and now I'm paying for a gym membership. But yeah, that's the problem I only about practice. When I was in junior high and high school, I took taekwondo. I made it all the way to Blackville, but you had to go to Texas to take the test and I was terrified of the South. So that didn't happen. Mm -hmm.

Thorn Coyle (09:21)
Yeah, makes sense. Yeah, you know, when I was teaching a lot and traveling and presenting a lot, I worked with a trainer in the gym. And that really kept it as you said, it helped my mental health. It gave me enough energy to do the work I was doing. And, you know, I have spiritual practices I do, I have meditation and other things I do, but that

Cat (09:33)
Yeah.

As you said, it helped my muscle pull. It gave me enough energy.

Thorn Coyle (09:50)
practice of going to the gym was foundational during all those years when I was working so hard. And I know people like you who you work a lot. I know you do. And I can see how the gym would be foundational for that. So physical practice plus, you know, acting is a physical craft too, right?

Cat (10:01)
I'm sorry.

It is, yes, it absolutely is, right? Because you have to, you know, you're embodying the character. It is a craft of stamina. Your breath connected to your voice, connected to your body, connected to your emotions, right? That your entire body is your instrument. And that's been interesting in terms of aging. My body is changing.

what I can and cannot do, back issues, knee hurts. And that, I'm actually in rehearsal for a show right now and that has been something I've really been noticing. I'm like, wow, well, you know, this is not my 20 or 30 year old body where I was just throwing myself, you know, across the stage or, so it's interesting, it's interesting. And I...

Thorn Coyle (10:38)
Great.

How are you adapting to that?

Cat (11:05)
stretching every day, really disciplined about the gym and exploring other ways to utilize my tool. I mean, it doesn't interrupt, right? The breath, body, emotion connection. But I'm also not playing, you know, I'm also playing characters closer to my age. That's a little different in this show, but so I can move a little slower.

Thorn Coyle (11:09)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Cat (11:34)
And it made me sad, I'm not gonna lie. But you know, as I think, you know, we all go through that phase as we start to slowly notice that stuff doesn't, stuff doesn't move or work quite the way it used to. And I'm at the beginning of that journey. So it's been a little bit emotional, but I'm adjusting. We'll figure it on out.

Thorn Coyle (11:55)
Yeah, I know my own physical health and aging process has been a teacher for me. You know, I had an undiagnosed autoimmune disorder for decades and it finally caught up with me around eight years ago and I had a big health crash and I was recovering, stabilizing from that and then I got a brain injury. Right. So it's definitely impacted. I've had to adjust.

my creative practice and I've had to adjust the ways in which I can do any kind of social justice work, right? It looks really different these days than it used to before my health crash. And it's, it would be easy for me, I'm an impatient person and it would be easy for me to just be impatient with that and fight against it. And the teaching for me has been to not fight against it, to rather say, okay, this is my life now. And a lot of other people are in the same boat.

So what's the teaching for me and then how can I create regardless?

Cat (13:00)
Right. Yep. Yep.

Thorn Coyle (13:02)
Yeah.

Cat (13:05)
Yeah.

Thorn Coyle (13:05)
So you have a lot of forms of creativity. I mean, as we said in your bio, you're a writer, you're an actor, you're a presenter, you're a host, you're an activist, you're an organizer, you're also a parent. And do you find that there's a similar thread of creativity that flows through all of that, or do they feel different to you?

I mean, we've talked about some of the similarities already between activism and acting, but...

Cat (13:35)
fit.

Yeah, I think they feel slightly different. So, you know, it's funny, I was talking about being a playwright the other day and I was so used to saying, you know, I just started writing plays and then I realized, looked up and realized I actually about 10 years in to being a playwright at this point. I'm also doing directing and I've also recently discovered the craft of dramaturgy. And those feed my soul in a very different way.

Thorn Coyle (13:58)
Mm -hmm.

Cat (14:11)
I don't know how to describe it, but writing is a different kind of release than performance, than directing. I mean, at the end of all of it, you've created something. So you've got this final project, even though playwrights will tell you our plays are never finished.

Thorn Coyle (14:25)
Mm -hmm.

Great.

Cat (14:36)
I don't know, they sit differently in my body and I'm actually finding as I get older, I'm enjoying the behind the scenes stuff more.

Thorn Coyle (14:45)
Interesting.

Cat (14:46)
Yeah, and I don't, part of me thinks that that's probably because I've been on and out front and under people's microscopes for a really long time at this point. And it's exhausting. It's just exhausting. But like writing a piece and giving it to actors and directors that I trust and then seeing the words come to life really feeds my soul.

Thorn Coyle (14:56)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Cat (15:15)
Dramaturgy being able to use my skills as an actress to pick apart a script and support actors and directors, right, and telling the best, clearest story that they can makes me feel very smart. And I enjoy that very much. So yeah, I think it's different. And acting...

Thorn Coyle (15:29)
Yeah. Yeah.

Cat (15:41)
I'm looking forward for this show to open, right? Because there's something about being in the theater, and this is a black box theater, which is my favorite theater to perform in. And that communing with the audience. And it's also very exhausting. It's very exhausting.

Thorn Coyle (15:43)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Well, you're doing very intimate theater, you know, and intimacy, that kind of intimacy with a crowd for an introvert, it can be really tiring, I think. Yeah.

Cat (16:10)
Mm -hmm. That's a lot. That's a lot. And the shows I do, like, I don't do comedies, right? It's not... I do dramas. I do things about trauma and usually, you know, black trauma. And so... And I go all the way there. And so sitting in that... is tiring. I did my one -woman show about Natasha McKenna for like...

Thorn Coyle (16:21)
Yeah.

Great.

Cat (16:40)
almost six years straight. And then I found myself cracking. And I couldn't, you know, I was like, what's happening? I was like, you're dealing with this in real time, in real life, you know, six, seven days a week, and then you're spending five days a week embodying this trauma for an hour with an audience. And it's just, just too much. It was just too much. And I don't know that I've quite recovered actually from that.

Thorn Coyle (16:45)
Yeah.

Right.

that makes sense. Well, and then, of course, that relates to the other work you do in the world in which you're dealing with other people's trauma, right? Along with, I imagine, ancestral trauma. Do you do direct ancestor work or do you find you mostly do that work through theater?

Cat (17:26)
Yup.

I do direct ancestor work. I've got my alters. I take care of my ancestors in communication with them daily. One of my most recent greatest joys was talking to my daughter who's, believe it or not, finishing her first year of college. And she does. She talks to her ancestors every day. And that made me so happy that she's girding herself up as she's in the world like that.

Thorn Coyle (17:48)
Wow.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Cat (18:01)
And then I definitely invite again, because so for instance, like Natasha, right? Like I invited her into the room every single show. I asked her permission every single show. I asked her to take over every single show.

Thorn Coyle (18:09)
right.

Right. So in that way, the play becomes a ritual enactment, right? You're invoking Natasha and allowing her to speak through you. You're invoking ancestral voices and allowing them to speak through you, which, you know, a lot of spiritual traditions have that sort of ritualized connection. So...

You're adding, it sounds to me, you know, as someone who does that kind of work, it sounds to me like you're adding a ritual aspect to your creative expression.

Cat (18:55)
Well, theater is ritual, right? And theater is church. And it's a conversation that I've been having actually with a bunch of folks lately. I mean, you come in, you warm up, right? You put on your costume, you put on your makeup. Oftentimes there's prayer with the cast, right? And then you engage in the production and then there's a closing and then there's an undoing of makeup and undoing of costume and right, the exiting of the theater. It is ritual.

Thorn Coyle (19:24)
Right.

Cat (19:24)
It's ritual, it's prayer, it's affirmation. We've been living with this tagline about reimagining, right? Reimagine public safety, reimagine this, reimagine the other. Artists are who help us do that. That's the work that happens inside of the theater. That's what the ritual is about, right? Helping us go transport to other places, times, get peaks into people's lives that otherwise we would not see.

Thorn Coyle (19:37)
That's right.

That's right. I want to circle back around to something you said earlier about doing more playwriting, directing, dramaturgy instead of acting. And that struck me that there's more of a sense of legacy, right, of passing things along at this time in your life.

through playwriting, through directing, through dramaturgy, because stage acting is ephemeral. You know, the audience carries the performance with them in years to come. They might hearken back to it. You certainly carry performances with you, but the performance itself is gone, right? Like a ritual, you know, it's complete every night. Whereas when you're writing things down or helping people study,

you're creating something very different that has a different sort of longevity and I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about that.

Cat (20:56)
It's interesting, I hadn't thought about that. I think that I've been thinking about legacy in a very different way and that's as I move towards a life where art is the dominant.

Thorn Coyle (21:10)
Mm -hmm.

Cat (21:12)
thing that I'm doing, part of what's allowing me to do that is that I feel like I've done the work of legacy leaving. I've been in these streets for over two decades and I've built an organization that has been here for 15 years and I probably will be here another 15, if not more, without me at the helm.

Thorn Coyle (21:23)
Right.

Right.

Cat (21:34)
I've brought up a generation, I'm in the process of bringing up a generation of young Black and Brown organizers who are going to continue to set the world on fire. My daughter is in the world and kicking butt and she's the greatest legacy that I'll leave. So I don't know, I've heard people talk about it that way. I hadn't.

Thorn Coyle (21:54)
Right.

Cat (22:02)
thought about that way. For me, it just feels like, like I'm coming home or I'm, I'm picking up where, you know, I left off. I mean, I, you know, there's that, that saying, you know, you plan, God laughs. I was going to be an actress and a writer. That's what I was going to do. and then I found myself, you know, doing something very, very different. and feel like, like I was, I was fulfilling, you know,

Thorn Coyle (22:19)
Right.

Cat (22:32)
contracts that I signed before I got here. And now I feel like I've done what I said I was gonna do. And now I just get to go be with my craft. My craft is really mostly for me, particularly my writing. I mean, of course you share it and you want it to be produced, et cetera, but my work is mine. It's for me. I don't compromise.

Thorn Coyle (22:44)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Cat (22:57)
I mean, I'll take edits, right? We need edits, but like, I wanna say what I wanna say. And I also, like, when I was in college, you had to write for and work under the white gaze. And we're in this period of time in the theater, in American theater right now where that's not the case anymore, right? Where there's all of these young, new, or emerging playwrights that are writing for their audience. And so it's a place where like, you,

Thorn Coyle (23:12)
Mm -hmm.

Mm.

Cat (23:27)
Now my voice, I can talk to people I want to talk to. And it's okay that my work is not for everybody and that's all right. It's for the people that it's for and that's been super freeing.

Thorn Coyle (23:31)
Great.

Mm -hmm.

It sounds like it, I can imagine. It's funny that I appreciate that you just said all that because my next question for you is going to be what gives you hope right now? And I think you just said something that feels really hopeful to me.

Cat (24:03)
Yeah, it's always the next generation. It's always, you know, I used to, when my kid was a baby, I mean, she's still my baby, but, you know, I'd say the babies, right, that I get up every day and do this work for the babies. But yeah, this, I mean, look at what's happening right now, right, that thousands and thousands of GALA students putting everything on the line, quite literally, in the name of liberating Palestine.

I look at my daughter's friends, her male friends, all of them identify as feminists, all of them. This generation has no confusion or debate about binary concepts like gender. They are clear about the need to save the earth. They do intersectionality naturally. And yeah, I'm getting like these 20 year old...

Thorn Coyle (24:40)
Wow.

great.

Cat (25:01)
20 plus old young people that are showing up at the organization and they are just dope AF. Like they just, I look at them, I mean, you know, and then like I just get to pour into them and give them everything I have. And they're gonna take that and make it more, right? It's not that they're gonna be like mini cats. They have all of their own fire and tools and analysis and desire and passion and God, energy. And look, that's the other thing makes me feel old. Like I'm watching my team and I'm like.

Thorn Coyle (25:09)
Mmm.

Cat (25:30)
jeez. And yeah, I am still doing those days, but I'm nowhere in as good of shape as they are. And those days are going to be coming to an end for me here in the next couple of years. I am. As I know right now, it feels really scary, right? It looks really scary. It looks really awful. And there are some things about right now that are really, really awful.

Thorn Coyle (25:53)
Mm -hmm.

Cat (26:00)
And I have so much hope in what I'm seeing in young people. And it's interesting that as we're watching these generations evolve the human race, if you will, and how we behave on the planet and with each other, the system has stepped up its interest in criminalizing them and shutting down their voices.

Thorn Coyle (26:25)
Yes.

Cat (26:30)
the fact, you know, what we saw, you know, in UCLA that police were allowed to touch. I was an 18 year old. I was 17 when I went to college. She was my daughter. So I find that that lets me know that they're doing something right. Whenever the state responds with violence, I'm like, we're on the right track. And so yeah, they give me hope. They really, really, really do.

Thorn Coyle (26:47)
Yeah.

That's beautiful. I mean, we are living in a time of societal collapse. And for the past year, I've been working with a group of people on what does it mean to invoke hope in these times of collapse? Because we have to envision what we want. We can't just focus on what we're tearing down, right? Or what is crumbling around us, right? And I think...

As you mentioned earlier, any kind of art helps with that. It helps us envision the world to come. It helps us say, what do we want to build? And what might that look or feel like? And how can we work together? And are you seeing more of that in the theater world right now?

I mean, you talked about just the fact that you no longer have to write for the white gaze, right?

Cat (27:52)
Right. And I'm watching, even more importantly, I'm watching young playwrights that that's like not even a thought in their head to write for the White Case. I'm part of this playwriting cohort and I am one one part of a playwriting cohort as a playwright, but I also join them as the dramaturge for one of the new plays that they're putting out. And so we have this retreat and there's.

Thorn Coyle (27:59)
Yeah.

Cat (28:19)
like six, I guess playwrights, all playwrights of color, young playwrights of color, and all of their plays talk to their audience. There's this one play that travels between the United States and Pakistan, and the playwright wrote pages and pages of dialogue in Urdu, right? And that's that. And I was just sitting in the room like...

Thorn Coyle (28:39)
Wow.

Cat (28:48)
This is, if this is the future of the American theater, we're gonna be all right. We are gonna be all right.

Thorn Coyle (28:53)
That's exciting to me because I used to be traditionally published in New York, and now I run my own publishing company. I'm independently published for a lot of reasons. And in independent publishing, there's huge diversity. But in traditional publishing, there still isn't. There's still a lot of tokenism. There's still a lot of writing for the white gaze and

white voices. And so I'm thrilled to hear that that's changing in theater because traditional publishing, if it's going to change, it's changing very slowly.

Cat (29:29)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I think theater has changed very slowly too, right? Like I think these are conversations that folks were trying to have. I remember when I was in college, 20 plus years ago now, geez Louise, and there was this amazing man there. I'm sure he's transitioned by now, Davy Marlon Jones. And he was brilliant director and also was over the graduate student play running program.

Brilliant man. So anyway, I was in his class and we were reading August Wilson, seven guitars. I was the only black person in the class. And I and we had to write a paper and I don't remember all of what it was, but I what I explored with the threads of white supremacy and tied that right to the things that happened to the folks in the play. And what I finished reading it in front of the class, like, no, like you could you could have heard a pin drop, right? Like, no, everybody just sort of like.

It might have been the first time half those kids have heard the words white supremacy, right? And I remember Davey, Davey taking his hat that he wore all the time and lifting up his head. He was like, well, what do people have to say about that? Nobody had anything to say, but he and I actually ended up in this like debate and he did it respectfully, but it, it legit changed my perception of him, right? Like he was not happy that that is what I brought.

into the conversation, even though we're talking about August Wilson, and of course that's what August Wilson was writing about.

Thorn Coyle (31:00)
I was just gonna say it's an August Wilson play. How can you not talk about those themes?

Cat (31:05)
You know, it was 20 some years ago. So like, you know, we've been We've been on this walk for a long time, right? And the artists of color have spoken out more and more there was a whole thing that came out from artists of color talking about, you know what it was like to be a black or browner indigenous inside of the world of white theater making so Yeah, I think we're getting there. I just I just think it's slow as most changes unfortunately. I

Thorn Coyle (31:08)
Wow.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, slow and then there's always the backlash you were mentioning earlier, right? The crackdown, the resistance against change.

Cat (31:40)
yeah.

Yeah, I mean, that's a big part of what we're living through right now. Anytime that black people make any headway, you can track it like clockwork in this country, right? There's white backlash. So right now we're living through backlash to Black Lives Matter, we're living through backlash to Defund, we're living through, you know, it's what's happening in real time.

Thorn Coyle (31:46)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

So in the midst of all that, how do you cultivate your sense of wonder and magic in the world?

Cat (32:18)
If I'm being honest, like mostly through the eyes of my child, we talk more now than we did when she lived under my roof. And just having her walk me through her day. I mean, I've got candles and altars and you name it all over my house. Those are the things that keep me grounded. I talk to creator, God, ancestors, everyday nature.

Thorn Coyle (32:23)
Mm.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Cat (32:46)
getting spending as much time in nature as possible. I actually was up visiting my daughter where she's going to college and she had to go to class and the ocean was you know a 20 -minute drive and so off I went. I was like any any chance I get where I ended up moving I'm surrounded by trees which you know yeah it's really really helpful to not be stepping over human waste every time I walk out of my door.

Thorn Coyle (33:04)
So beautiful.

Yeah.

Cat (33:14)
and instead of be looking at this. So yeah, nature and my kid and then my own spiritual practices.

Thorn Coyle (33:22)
Yeah, beautiful. Thank you.

What do you consider your current why, your current sense of doing your work, your purpose?

I know, just a light question, Cat. No big deal.

Cat (33:43)
There's so many layers of that, right? Like, so the first thing I want to say, like, my why is to get to a place where I can retire from this org and do my art full time. And so that's why my days start at 6 a and go until 11, right? Because I'm doing the work work and then I'm in rehearsals. There's some really concrete goals that I want to achieve with APTP before I leave.

Thorn Coyle (33:59)
Mm -hmm.

Cat (34:12)
You know, we formed 15 years ago and, you know, mission is no small task. Our mission is to eradicate state terror. And, we spent, we were born to be visionary and not just reactionary, but we spent a lot of years reacting. And now we're in this place of, of actually doing, of actually interrupting engagement between our communities in the state, actually creating models of community care, that keep people safe and address their health and mental health and trauma. And.

Thorn Coyle (34:24)
Yeah.

Mm.

Cat (34:41)
So that, like, and so I've been saying in meetings lately, like, my, I want this to become what's rational, right? We were always called radical. This is what becomes rational and that becomes radical. And I think we're seeing, well, I know we are, we're seeing indicators of that, right? Where even people in middle America will agree now that cops should not be the first people to respond to people in the mental health crisis. That survived the backlash against defund.

Thorn Coyle (34:49)
Yes.

rate.

Cat (35:10)
And that, that, that, and then the, the integration of healing justice as an organizing strategy and the ways in which we're more directly addressing the trauma of white supremacy and talking about it as opposed to like how I was raised as an organizer was work, smoke, drink, die, white supremacy, never sleeps, neither should you. and we said no to that, right. In, in, in our organization. And I think across movement, though, I think people are doing it to varying degrees of success.

Thorn Coyle (35:30)
Great.

Cat (35:39)
But to know that that generation of amazing young people that I was just talking to you about are not going to drink, smoke, work themselves to death because that's not how they're being trained. That's not how they're being brought up. And that them and those pieces of the work are my why right now.

Thorn Coyle (35:52)
Yeah.

Yeah. Well, what you just said to me is part of continuing the legacy that Audre Lorde was trying to teach all those years ago, right? That radical self -care has to be part of things, right? And...

Cat (36:20)
But I don't even call it self -care. I actually push back on that word. Because self -care means that we get all messed up together and then you go in a corner by yourself and lick your wounds. We talk about radical community care. We get messed up together, we heal together. We are a collective. There's no self in the work. People come together to the people's house to get their services.

Thorn Coyle (36:24)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Mmm.

Mm.

Cat (36:49)
talk therapy, being in conversation. I mean, I think that that's one of the greatest tricks that white supremacy and race -based capitalism has played on us, right? It is like self and I, as opposed to we and community. And that's actually an affront to all of our ancestral lineages, right? If our ancestors had been about the I, they would not have survived, period. And so I think part of how we claim our power and our...

Thorn Coyle (37:06)
Yeah.

Right. Right.

Cat (37:19)
healing ancestral lineages and rights and information and practices is by rejecting the the I and really embracing the we.

Thorn Coyle (37:31)
That's beautiful, thank you. To close, do you have any last thoughts that you would like to share with people who might be having trouble being creative right now in this world?

Cat (37:50)
Yeah, don't beat yourself up for it. I think that a lot of us feel guilty doing things that give us pleasure when there's so much pain in the world. And so bite -sized chunks, right? Like if all you get out of you is a couple of strokes on a canvas or a couple of sentences, that's good enough. I mean, I tend to write in big chunks. It's ancestor creator inspired.

Thorn Coyle (37:57)
Yeah.

Cat (38:16)
I sit down, I write the whole draft of the whole play in like six, seven hours. And that doesn't happen all the time, thank God, because I wouldn't get anything else done. Right, so like figuring out what works for you. I think we put so many standards. Like we do the job of the state, for the state, to ourselves. And so just breathe, breathe, it'll come.

Thorn Coyle (38:25)
Right.

Just breathe, it'll come. That's great. Thank you very much. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. This was a terrific conversation and I certainly got a lot out of it and I know my listeners will too. And I wish you all the best in your creative work and your organizing work and in everything you're doing with the new generations of organizers and creators.

Thanks so much, Cat, for all you do in the world.

Cat (39:11)
Thank you, Thorn. Thank you. It's good to be reconnected. I appreciate you. All right. You too. All right, dear.

Thorn Coyle (39:15)
Yeah, take care of yourself. And I'd like to thank all my listeners and wishing you a magical creative day.