MC Do D.A.T. on Hip Hop, Creativity, and Spiritual Practice

In this engaging conversation, author T. Thorn Coyle speaks with Davin Thompson, also known as emcee Do D.A.T., about the intersections of creativity, spirituality, and community. They explore Davin's creative roots, the power of performance, and the importance of teaching and mentorship. The discussion delves into the role of freestyling in hip hop culture, the impact of spirituality on creative expression, and the challenges of navigating social justice in today's world. Davin shares insights from his experiences working with youth and emphasizes the significance of authenticity in both art and teaching.

You can find Davin's music at http://dodat1.bandcamp.com
This podcast is made possible by Thorn's Patreon supporters: https://www.patreon.com/c/ThornCoyle

Transcript

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Hello, friends. Welcome to another episode of Magic, Creativity, and Life, Interesting Conversations with Interesting People. I'm your host, T. Thorn Coyle. I know there's a lot going on in the world right now and hope that wherever you are, you are safe. In personal news, I'm working on a new contemporary fantasy series loosely inspired by an old Scottish fairy ballad, and I'm having a great time with it. I'm also finalizing the table of contents for an expanded edition of my essay collection, Resistance Matters. That will launch on Kickstarter on January 21st, 2025, if you want to check it out. As always, a big shout out and thanks to my Patreon supporters who make the recording and captioning of this series possible. I wish you all the best. In today's conversation, I speak with my friend, Davin Thompson, AKA MC Doodat. We met on public transit in Oakland, California, close to 15 years ago. In our conversation, I think I say 10 years, but it's definitely been longer than that. Our relationship was born of serendipity, which is its own kind of magic. Let's dive in. Hello everybody. Welcome to this next episode of Magic, Creativity, and Life. My name is T. Thorn Coyle, and today I'm thrilled to be talking with Davin Thompson, also known as Do D.A.T. who is an arts educator and emcee hailing from Oakland, California. Davin has spent the majority of his life as a creative writer, performing artist, and engaging facilitator. Davin blends the art of MCing into his facilitation style to captivate audiences of all ages and backgrounds through thought-provoking, socially conscious music and interactive workshops. He has several musical album releases as a solo artist and in collaborative partnerships. Davin has performed on world renowned stages such as the San Francisco Fillmore, Oakland Fox Theater and the historic Apollo Theater in Harlem, New York. He continues to grow his artistic skills and mindfulness practice of meditation that help him stay grounded as a dedicated artist. Davin, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you. It's my pleasure. I really appreciate the invite. So, Davin, I ask everyone this first question to start off with. What are your creative roots? Like as a child, was it always music? Was it writing? Was it drawing? Was it dance? Was it some other form of creative expression? It's a good question. It's always been writing. always had a love affair with words, as cliche as I'm sure that is. I started, I think I wrote my first poem in second grade. It was about clouds. from there, it's a lot of different things in elementary. I wrote for the school newspaper. I ended up writing like a short story. it, you know, honestly, I was thinking about this just recently. I used to write short stories for my fourth grade class and my teacher would let me read them to after lunch, like on Fridays to, the rest of the class. the first time that I did it, they were like little silly toilet humor jokes. You know what I mean? But the reaction that I got from the class, I was like, y'all think this is funny? I can do this all day, you know? And that really got me, just really wanted to engage more with like groups of people and audiences. And after I found hip hop and like really, you know, like discovered the craft of rhyme writing, I kind of just pushed all those other things out of the way and focused on honing my skills as an emcee and as a rapper. And yeah, so. That continued on throughout the rest of my schooling. And like, you know, in between that time, I also did a little bit of like improv theater and I got back into the spoken word scene and you know, all the, any, any skill that you, anything, whatever your main skill is and anything that you learn that is related to that skill ultimately feeds back into it. So me doing a little bit of theater and being on the poetry scene, it made me a more dynamic performer and a more thoughtful writer. Yeah, and that's kind of like the origin, the short version of the origin story. first of all how amazing that your teacher gave you that opportunity and that your classmates had such a great positive response to you. Yeah, yeah. is, you know, like at the time I didn't really, I kind of took it for granted, you know, but thinking back and you know, that's the beauty of having a teacher who's paying attention to the skills and the strengths of their students. And it's also says a lot about the school community that they were open and supportive of, you know, me experimenting and expressing myself. So yeah, absolutely. I also have a theater background. I started theater when I was a child doing community theater and through high school did theater. And that has definitely served me well as a speaker, as a teacher, all of that training and really just engaging with people in life. know, I'm an introvert. And so that theater training though enables me to show up. in ways for people that I might not otherwise be comfortable with, I think. Right, right. I remember my first theater class in high school, I felt so silly doing the things that I was being asked to do. But then I found such freedom in being like, okay, well, this is silly and I'm just going to lean into it. And it really helped me open up and just kind of embrace aspects of myself that I maybe pushed down a little bit, some of my more quirky side. What age were you when you discovered hip-hop? I was like, maybe like 12, 11. Well, that's not true because I'm the youngest in my family and I have two older brothers and they were listening to hip hop. So it's like, I've always, it's always been around. It's always been in the background. But I would say like when I discovered it and when I... When I established my own personal relationship with it, was in fourth grade as a writer, but there's a movie called House Party. yeah, so the scene in House Party, there's a battle scene. they do, they dance off at first and then they do the battle. And it was something, I don't know what it was exactly, but it was something about me watching that battle and again, watching people react to what they were saying. I understood why what they were saying, what was being said was so impactful. it just, I was like, the whole scene of it, you know what mean? I was like, I want to do that. I want to do that. And you know, just the energy around the, like the MCs battling and the, the whole vibe, it was, it just looked so much fun and I like, I wanted to do it. So I just, I started writing after that. I started writing. that is cool. It's making me think of, I don't know if you ever saw that old movie Slam with Saul Williams. Yeah, that was so powerful. The, cause I also was a poet and I still write poetry, but not as often as I used to. And I used to perform poetry and that movie really displayed the power of the spoken word and the power to change minds and change energy and change a dangerous situation into a community building situation, you know. And so I'm wondering, I know you do a lot of ciphers and that feels to me, correct me if I'm wrong, like a community building activity. Absolutely. So can you talk a little bit about that, about the power of that? Yeah, so you So still sharp and still. And it doesn't have to be a battle in order for two people to be competing. I've been lucky enough to come up with a group of really talented individuals. And we always competed, whether we were at each other like that or not. Who has the best verse? Who can have the best style? Who can be the most impactful? And you learn a lot about yourself in these spaces. And the thing about doing the cyphers is it's, you know, in some cases it's like going to the gym or at least that's how I'm treating it. Just get some reps in and like really like compete with myself and like learn more about like who I am as a performer, as an emcee, like what my specific style is, you know? Because the thing is you can come in there and somebody can be really great at stacking syllables. and somebody else can be really great at just like having the most unique style and somebody else would be a really good storyteller. And you can compete with them in the things that they do. But I've had the experience of really recognizing what I do well and leaning more into that. it makes it more specific. It makes me stand out in a more unique way. And it's also like, it's just fun. Yeah, sure. just fun. It's just, it's inspirational. You know, it's, see somebody get up there and they lose themselves a little bit and you, you want to have that same experience. And you know, in some other cases, especially when it comes to freestyling, you're watching somebody, it's almost like watching somebody on a tight rope and you don't know what they're going to say. You don't know if they're going to fall off. You don't know if they're going to do something super inspired and creative. You just don't know, so it's so very engaging. And the Cyphers that I've been hosting recently, I have a hard time sleeping afterwards just because I'm so charged up. I gotta send a shout out to this other emcee who comes through and he co-hosts, his name is Frank Stickums. And he's one of the best that I've ever been in space with like that. and his energy is so high. And he's also like so celebratory of everyone else. Like he's really, really, really good at what he does. You know what I mean? But he's also on the side, like hyping everybody else up, you know? So it's just, it's really, really, for me, it's a very sacred space. It feels like in some ways, like you're channeling, in some ways it feels like an outer body experience. And you it's just, you practice all the skills that are necessary to emcee. You know what mean? Like crowd engagement, stage presence, vocal projection, being clever, being funny. know what I mean? Like, it's being ill. It's everything, like in one instance. Yeah. I love the way you talk about this process because it reminds me so much of many of my creative processes too, but I'll focus on writing because that's my primary form of expression. And when I'm trying to level up my craft, I'm definitely focusing on some key component parts of that craft, but I reach a point where I just enter that flow state. Right? Where my subconscious has taken over. I'm fully connected. Right? The characters are just writing themselves. The words are flowing. And I'm one with the text. Right? And so there's an interesting thing about learning craft and practicing craft. And then we almost have to make a leap to being craft. You know? Yeah. that's what I hear you reflecting. Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. It's like, you know, you want to get to the point where the craft is innate. It's second nature. So it just, goes, you go to like in the automatic mode and then you have more options, you know? And it's like, I just, I really have a hard time articulating the actual experience of it other than it just feels so free. feels so... invigorating in it and it's specifically with freestyling it's like you just get people's attention again because it's it's that it's it's in the moment you're making this up in the moment so it's hard not to like pay attention and watch because you don't know what's going to happen it's not rehearsed you know Right. And that's something I think some people who aren't part of hip hop culture don't comprehend, that this isn't stuff you've written in advance. You know, it's not the stuff that you have completed that is on the recording. Right, right, right. Which that stuff is awesome too and it has its own space. But it, like energetically, it's something different about being able to freestyle in the moment. Like you get people's attention. Like oftentimes when I perform and I'm like, I have an actual set, I'll start off with maybe like an acapella and then that'll be written, you know? And it kind of depends on the crowd and the setting, but I'll start off with the acapella so they can hear my voice and they can really hear what I'm saying. And if it's a different type of room, you know what mean? If I feel like I might have to fight a little bit more for people's attention, then I'll start off with the freestyle. And it doesn't even have to be anything really like super duper clever, you know? Just me like talking to people and engaging with people in the rhyme is enough to get everybody's attention. Because then it turns into another thing like, he might turn around and talk to me next. he might mention me next, you know? And it engages people very quickly. Yeah. You're forging connection right away. Yeah, yeah, know, you're making it establish me, right? Yeah. Yeah. So when you're not freestyling, or maybe it's similar when you're composing, do you feel like you start with concepts or with the words, with language? Man, I don't know. don't, and this is something I've been wanting to address for myself, but I don't really have a routine the way that I approach things. Lately, the things that I've been writing and I've been creating, they've been inspired by a feeling. It's been inspired by me wanting to address this feeling and process it, make sense of it, and. and in some cases just get it out of my space so that I'm not walking around with it. know? So like sometimes it starts with a word, a lot of times it starts with the music and you know if the music speaks to me, if it's like, this is a vibe that I can get with, then it'll start there. And then sometimes, sometimes I'll have a concept. You know, other times I just need like the first line. and it'll unfold from there. But more often than not, especially lately, it's been like, hey, I'm feeling some type of way about this breakup, or I'm feeling some type of way about this world event, or I've seen something really stupid online and I just have to address it. So yeah. I know that your music goes deep into a lot of different themes. You talk about social justice, you talk about social uplift, you talk about inspiration, spiritual practice and connection. And I know for a lot of artists, they tend to separate things out more. I also combine a lot of things in my... self-expression and my art, I have to, right? It's just part of my life. And so my life and my interests and my concerns and troubles and joys and my practice flow through the work. And your work feels very similar to me. And I think it's why I gravitated to your music so much. Yeah. Yeah. No, definitely everything that you described. It's very on point. And like, if I were like to describe my style of writing, it's like, it's a lot of slick talk, but there's also some like jewels and there's some wisdom kind of weaved into it, you know? So, you know, in the same piece, you know, I'll say something that's clever, that I think is clever or entertaining while I'm processing. you know, like loss or, you know, just like how life can hit you from the left side or, you know what I mean? Like, for me, it stays interesting that way. And you can get a little bit, you can get a little bit of this and a little bit of that and one piece. So it's like, you come looking for one thing, but you get a few other joints as well. Yeah, that's cool. So speaking of jewels, know, on social media, you often post thoughtful things that you call jewels, right? Food for thought, things that feel uplifting. And I know you do have a strong spiritual practice. And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about how your spiritual practice helps your creative life and your life in general. work. Right, right. Well, first of all, you know, thank you for acknowledging that. Those jewels that I post online are a lot of times like things that I am pondering myself and, you know, they're like notes to myself. Maybe somebody else will get them. Maybe somebody else will get something out of it as well. And as far as Like my spiritual practice and how that ties into my creative process. I treat them like one in the same. And I've had a lot of spiritual experiences on stage and a lot of like almost surreal moments where like the ethereal becomes very physical, becomes very present. And it is my belief as as a, like a emcee, but also as a person, you know, but as a performer, you are broadcasting a certain frequency. So if I step on stage and I'm broadcasting at the frequency of like love and upliftment, and I carry that and I practice that my day to day, you know, I believe people will meet and accompany me at that. at that frequency. I write with that intention. I write from a place of wanting to engage like spirit to spirit and speak to like, you know, speak to healing whatever wound may be present or like brightening whatever light is there. And yeah, and that's... That's the intention behind it. I remember not to go off into too much of a tangent, but I remember for album release party for my crew to Attic back in the day. And we had, it ended up being where we had Dead Prez open up our show. They had a show at the time. Yeah. It just lined up like that, right? Like they had a show, it got canceled. They ended up moving there. their show to our release party and they opened up the whole thing. The venue was completely packed, know, wall to wall. It was already going to be thick because we have worked hard to get to the point where we had that kind of attention. But at one point of the show, we did the song that we were most known for. was called No Sleep. And there's like, because we have been performing pretty much every week for two years, people knew when we got to a certain part in the song, like we would just turn all the way up and we would just start jumping. And right before we got to that part, I don't know what it was, but I seen this like shockwave come over to audience, you know? It was like a heat wave just come off of the audience and everybody in the venue was just jumping at the same time. And it's like instances like that, you know, where... I went to see KRS one time and it was a similar thing where I just kind of feel the energy in the room shift a little bit. So it's again, it's like, energetically, like these things like are being communicated on a real subtle level, you know? And, and because, because I'm aware of those things and because I've like, I believe those things, I lead with those things when I perform. And I want people to see that this is a person who is like lost in love. in their craft and so much so that you can do it too. You know what saying? Like you can, can, whatever it is, whatever you love this way, whatever you're that enthusiastic about, you can do it too. And you can be as close to your spirit through whatever that practice is. That's beautiful. You know, I also try to put out in the world things that feel useful, beautiful, coming from a place of love. And it doesn't mean that I'm not snarky or sarcastic or get angry at the world, right? But what do I want to share? Mm-hmm. because the world, especially the way we communicate right now, like social media is such a gift and a curse, right? And there's so much noise, first of all, there's so much constant outrage and terror being spread in the name of awareness, but it's not really awareness, it's... manufactured outrage to get an emotional response. Right? So I, you know, I try to only put out things like that if I have a call to action. If I say this terrible thing is happening, but here's something we can do. Right? So I'm wondering how you navigate that, right? Cause I know you're connected. You have feelings about social injustice. I mean, you're a You're a black man in America, right? So I don't know if you have any thoughts for people listening about how to balance that so that we're not ignoring what's going on in the world, but we're also not feeding the machine that keeps us in states of outrage and desperation. Yeah, that is really, really, it's a really tricky question because I think that it is necessary to express and to be vocal and to also to be like informative. I think also what you touched on. There's so much information that's available that you have to check it twice, three times and be clear where the, like where these things are coming from. And also appreciate, that you said that you are conscientious about like, okay, well, this is what's going on and this is where we can go with it, or this is something that can be done with it. So it's just not, people are sitting with, you know, all of this heaviness. For me, what has been really, really helpful is having a strong meditative practice and being able to have awareness. So when I encounter certain images or certain information or certain conversations, I have a little bit more control and agency in how I respond to those things. Exactly. I would offer that to your audience or to anybody that I come across and just being like, well, how is this landing for you? How is this hitting for you? Where are you coming from with this personally? And what feels resonating with you? What feels like it's in alignment with you? And moving from there. And that doesn't mean that... Your perspective is the all out truth. It doesn't mean that, you know, like I'm more right than you are. It just acts as a proper base for us to have a discussion and come to some sort of common perspective or not, you know what mean? But just have some sort of clarity, you know, you know. Right. Well, and that's what's important to me as well. I need the ability to return to my center, right? And meditative practice, any kind of deep spiritual practice gives us that ability to return to center because the world is often trying to throw us out of center. And the less centered we are, the less agency we have. So I appreciate that reflection. That's great. And I also just love the way all of that filters through your music. I know we've touched on that already, but your spiritual practice is such a strong thread. Not that you, you know, rap about, I've been meditating this morning, but it's that presence you're talking about and that sense of connection you're talking about. Thank you for that. I want to rap about meditation. I just want to find a way to do it that feels authentic and is not leaning into any tropes and is also accessible for people who may not meditate or may not view spirituality the way that I do. I want to make it I kind of want to make it plain and simple, you know, so that they can, so that it can be accessed. Like, you know who's been like a real strong source of inspiration as far as writing for me goes lately is Khalil Gibran. Man, I like really, really enjoy his word choice. And I really enjoy like the simplicity of what he's creating. It's like every line is so thoughtful. Yes. you could meditate. You could just take one line and really just sit with that. And if I have any current aspirations as far as a writer is to be able to convey such an expansive idea in such short form, you know, and I would like in terms of like reflecting a spiritual practice in my art, I would like for to be present in that kind of way. You know, I'm not beating you over the head with it, but it's like it's there. you Yeah, yeah, I love that. You know, this is also making me think that I should tell listeners the fact that we met years ago now on a BART train, you know, a public transit train, BART train in the San Francisco Bay Area. And I asked you about a book you were reading. Yeah. And we ended up in conversation and I feel like something in me recognized you and something in you recognized me in that moment. And the fact that we stayed in touch for over a decade after that is really powerful when you think about it. Like usually two strangers meet on a train, maybe they'll say a couple sentences if they speak at all and then they go on their way. But I really do think it's because you and I have despite our vast differences, there was that point of connection we had that we both went, oh, right, you. There you are. Yeah. And you know, like I reflect on that more often than not. Right. And at some point in the conversation, you remember what you said to me about like, I think we were talking about like different forms of spirituality, like what you believe, what I believe. And you remember what you said? You said it was like some people start off in the woods, some people start off by the beach, some people start off in the city. But the closer you get to the mountaintop, the more the conversation becomes the same, the more the perspective comes the same. That sat with me, or it's continued to sit with me throughout this decade of knowing you. And I really appreciate that reflection. I really appreciate that. could have, we can start out in different places and we can have different, maybe different beliefs. But the more that we engage with... like the truth or more that we engage with spirit or you know what mean? The more that conversation becomes, it's like, okay, okay, I'm talking to somebody I've known for a while now. I'm talking to somebody I've known for a while. Yeah. Yeah. So I just, I realized it's an unusual story and I should let people know that, we met on public transit. Yeah, yeah. Nice chance meeting and a cool conversation, you know. So currently, what are you working on creatively or spiritually? What's at the heart of your work these days? These days. So creatively, I have some music that I've been sitting on for a little while that I want to decide how I want to release it. And I'll be frank, know, like releasing the music is not my strongest suit. It's like, you know, publicity, marketing and now and on and on and on. It's not the most exciting thing to do. But I want to give myself the justice of having as many people have the opportunity to hear my music as widely as possible. So I'm taking my time and thinking about how to do that, while at the same time being like, well, just release it, just put it out. And whoever's supposed to hear it will hear it and they'll get what they're to get out of it. Just keep creating. So I have an album that is done. I'm really excited about it because I've also dipped into producing. And at least at the initial completion of the album, I had produced half of it. I then dropped off maybe about three songs now, three joints that I'm really excited about. this upcoming year, I'm just gonna... release consistently, I'm going to probably just do singles, single, single, singles until I get enough to say, okay, now it's a full project and then just keep on celebrating the work. That's a, you're bringing up a thing that's tricky for, I think, a lot of creative people, right? Because on one hand, I do feel the most important thing is to write and release, right? To share the energy, share the gifts, share the music, share the poetry, the writing, the movie, the whatever it is. But on the other hand, there's something about respecting yourself as an artist and respecting the work as a whole. Mmm. saying, how do I better position this to reach a broader audience? What angles can I work on this that still feel authentic, but that will facilitate a broader connection? And it's one of the reasons I started, I went back to writing fiction after years of only writing nonfiction was I thought I can potentially reach more people with these ideas through fiction because it captures the imagination in a different way than my non-fiction does, right? And that was both something that was naturally emerging from inside of me at that time in my life, but also it was a conscious choice. And I'm wondering, what's your resistance around trying to reach different people than you're currently reaching. Because I think we all, every artist comes up against this. Mm-hmm. I wouldn't say that I have a resistance to meeting, to reaching more people. I would say that it's more so about me being organized and like, you know, putting, making my work, putting my work into like a machine to where it can be accessed by more folks. I don't... And in the same breath, I also don't want to feel like I am, I was going to say selling out, but I think more accurately being inauthentic or disingenuous to the culture. And I've been in situations where, you know, I was getting an opportunity to travel. I was getting an opportunity. was being paid and I was getting an opportunity to be in front of an audience that I wouldn't otherwise be in front of. But the project that this was attached to, I honestly didn't have much interest in outside of those things. You know? And I would say like, if that's the situation, if that's the vehicle that's going to allow me to reach a wider audience, well, I'd rather just cipher. You know what mean? I'd rather just cipher with people who are really, you know what mean? Or it's not, I wouldn't even say it's the audience. I would rather be involved with other creatives who we more closely align in our values and our understanding of hip hop culture. You know, and I don't really care to be, you know what I'm saying? Like I don't need to be Kanye West or Kendrick Lamar. don't want to be famous in that way. I'd rather be impactful and have the respect of the people who are making those moves, you know? Yeah. Yeah. totally makes sense to me. I mean, I've certainly turned down some amazing offers because they didn't feel right. And, you know, early on, especially when I returned to writing fiction, people were telling me, you have to do things this way to sell more books and make more money. And I'm like, I'm not doing things that way. That does not work for me. I have to find my way. And lo and behold, all these years later, right, I'm successful. Might I be making more money than I am now? Maybe. But that is not what's most important. So I agree with you on that. Right. Cause you also want to be happy, right? You know what I mean? You can have money and then instill hate your job or hate what you're doing. So much of it is like, I feel so happy about what I'm doing and how I'm creating. You know what I'm saying? I can't get in the flow state and get lost in this because I'm not worried about disgracing, you know what mean? Or just not paying tribute to this thing that brings me so much fulfillment and enrichment for my soul, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. I'm going to pivot slightly and ask, what are the rewards of working with younger people for you? I know over the years you've worked a lot with youth. I'm not sure if you're still doing that, but what do you learn from that? What have been some of the rewards from that? It's, it's that question is I'll start from my most recent experience working with youth. So I was teaching mindfulness and meditation in elementary schools. And one immediate benefit is it's kind of hard to walk onto an elementary school campus and be in a bad mood. You know what mean? especially when you're interacting with these like little kindergartners who are just present, you know what I mean? And they're just themselves. And you you get a little kindergartner hugging your leg, if whatever's bothering you, you're gonna be like, okay, I can take a break from that and just be with this young person. And working in a more creative space, like like a, like a artist development, you are watching someone, who is discovering their process. And something precious about that is they're making this up as they go along and you get to witness them form and you get to pull a little bit of like jewels for yourself. like, wow, I wouldn't even have thought of approaching it in that way because this is someone who is new. This is someone who is like learning in this because they're learning their mind is free in a way that maybe my mind hasn't been because I've drilled in this specific kind of routine or approach, you know, like I remember, like, like working with this one artist, I was trying to get this artist to wrap the way that I wrap. And we just got frustrated, you know, and, we had to take a second and when I took a second, I thought about it. was like, okay, this person is not me. They're them. So let me just lean into their process and, you know, pump them up the way that they want to be, what they want to produce. And in that way, I learned for myself, like, okay, sometimes you gotta just relax a little bit and just be with the process and see what comes of it, you know? And then, you know... Resilience, resilience. another, you know, another iteration of my career, like working in a hip hop therapy capacity, we've got to really see the resilience of the human spirit through some very, very difficult situations, familial, systematic, you know what I mean? Like even just like personal. And there is something about these young folks who have had a pretty sour time so far and their ability to still bring joy into a space and also to see them like grow through whatever adversity they have encountered. And that doesn't mean that it's completely defeated or has been dissipated, but you just get to see that resilience. You get to see that growth and it's inspirational. It's like, if you can change, then I can change. If you can grow, then I can grow. And, That's been the most awesome thing is like, for a while I was denying myself as a teacher. Like I'm not a teacher, I'm a rapper, I'm an emcee. You know I'm saying? And I've come to understand that MCing and educating is, they're very, very similar. They're very similar, if not the same. The presence that you hold in a classroom is very similar to the presence that you hold on stage. The way that you... create connections with your students is very similar to the way that you connect, create connections with your audience. Or if you want to take it into another route, you know, the way like a minister, you know, holds space in a church, the way that you project yourself and you make connection with, you know, with that audience. It's the same. The closer you get to the mountaintop is the same, you know? And it's been like kind of a blessing. that I hadn't counted until just recently. And I'm like very humbled to have like a legacy, you know, through the people that I've mentored and I've worked with and their growth. And I celebrate their growth like it's, like it's why I'm because it is. Yeah. You know, years ago, I had this disagreement with some people that I was teaching with. I was co-teaching. And I insisted on calling myself a teacher. And they were like, I'm not a teacher. I'm a facilitator. And I was like, well, first of all, facilitation is its own skill set. to be a good facilitator takes a lot. And it's a different skill set. Mm-hmm. what I felt they were doing and not saying they were a teacher was they were not respecting themselves and the work. And I was like, I respect myself and the work and the people who are coming to us enough to say, yeah, I'm gonna take that responsibility on that I'm a teacher. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, respecting anyone who has taken time and invested in their learning, you know, to get degrees and to hold on to that experience. And also not to disqualify those of us who have not went that route, but are still educators and are still teachers and still hold that space, you know? Right, a degree doesn't matter. I mean, a degree only matters in that it's a marker of time put in, effort put in. But a lot of us put in time and effort in other ways, as you just said. You have studied and trained deeply for years. And that's something to honor and to name. So here we are. We're both writers. Mm-hmm. And we know the power of words. And so I appreciate that you're claiming that word, teacher. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yes. Yes. I am a teacher. I am a teacher. I am an educator. Um, for, for me, but more specifically, I like to say that I am an emcee and, um, you know, I, I educate, I entertain, I enlighten, you know, at least that is my, that is my objective to do those things. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. that, you know, that kind of, again, it speaks to like my objective, like, and goes back a little bit in the conversation to where some of my aspirations are, like, I want to have, like, I want folks to have a spiritual experience listening to and engaging with my performance. And I don't fully have the language to articulate it in a way to where I feel like people can just, anyone can access it, but that's what I'm working towards. And I would like to be able to speak to the subtleties of what is taking place between a performer and the audience, you know, and the, like the energetic exchange, exchange of ideas, the raising and the dropping of frequency, you know, I like allowing people to project, you know what I'm saying, themselves onto onto me as a performer or project myself out to them. Like these are ideas that I'm cultivating. I don't have them quite yet, you know what I mean? it's my plan is to be there before the end of it all. That's beautiful and it really speaks to the next question I was going to ask you, but I feel you've already answered it, although say more if you feel called. I was going to ask what your why is, but I think you just spoke to what your why is. Yeah, yeah, it's that. And currently, my why is just because it helps me preserve. It helps me. It helps me stay sane. And it's one of those things where I have had people through me working through my process. I feel like I've also helped people work through their process. And part of my why is I just, I feel good at the end of the day if I know that I've like contributed to making the space around me better. And I have come to realize recently that the most direct way to do that is for me to take care of my inner self through meditation, through creative expression or whatever. You know what mean? I think that that's my why. Because this is the most direct way that I know how to impact the world around me. Yeah. Thank you for that. Beautiful. Yeah. Thank you, Thor. This is awesome. this has been a great conversation, really rich, and I appreciate you so much. And I want to thank all of our listeners today. Once again, I've been talking with Davin Thompson, also known as emcee Do D.A.T. D-O-D-A-T. And you can find his music at dodat1.bandcamp.com. That's dodat number one, and I'll put that in the show notes. and you can find me at thorncoyle.com. Thanks for joining us. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed what Davin had to say. He's such an insightful, lovely person. I always enjoy talking to him. As always, you can support this podcast over at my Patreon, patreon.com slash thorn coil. And please check out Dudat's Bandcamp page. Wishing you all a magical creative day. Be well.