Author Jessie Kwak on Practicality and Artistic Expression

T. Thorn Coyle interviews author Jessie Kwak, exploring the intersections of creativity, writing, and personal growth. The two writers discuss the balance between practicality and artistic expression, the role of meditation in enhancing creativity, and the importance of self-awareness in the writing process. Jessie shares insights on her journey from writing science fiction to thrillers, emphasizing the significance of building empathy through storytelling. The conversation concludes with reflections on current inspirations and the necessity of finishing creative projects.

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Hello, T. Thorn Coyle here. Welcome back to Magic, Creativity, and Life. Today's episode is another interview episode in which I talk with author Jessie Kwak. But I'll get to that a little bit later. Right now, I wanna give you an update and tell you what I've been working on. So I'm working a lot on Stars of Power, my non-fiction book on the Pentacles, and I've... taught this material for decades, but I haven't written about it in a long, long time. And it's great to revisit this material from this perspective of like 20 years later, since I really wrote about this topic in depth. It's interesting to see the ways in which my worldview has shifted, what has stayed the same, how aging has affected my perspective. and just how, my own understanding has broadened and deepened my understanding of the world, of human relationships and of these tools. So I'm looking forward to this book launching on Kickstarter in October of 2025. Speaking of Kickstarter, my winding road Kickstarter is getting ready to launch on May 20th. I'm really excited for this book. It's a brand new series, book one. and it's based loosely on the Thomas the Rhymer ballad. And I thought, what if I could talk about Thomas the Rhymer years after they emerged from under Hill, right? What happens to a person when they've been dragged into fairy or Elfland or whatever you want to call the sideways realms and then emerges only to find friends and family long gone? what happens to a person's life. So this magical fantasy is an exploration of those questions. And I'm really looking forward to it. And I hope you had to Kickstarter and either follow the campaign if it's before May 20th or maybe back it if you feel up to it, if it's after May 20th. And with that said, that's pretty much all my news. I'm enjoying spring despite world events, doing my best as always to help people as I can and enjoying my walks and the flowers and some rain here in Portland, Oregon. I hope you are managing and if you're not managing, I hope you're finding some support and some comfort right now. Now let's dive into the show with Jessie Kwak. It's a really thoughtful interview. And Jesse has some great things to say about balancing creativity with playfulness, with responsibility, with dedication and with fun. So I hope you get something out of our conversation. I know I did. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Magic, Creativity, and Life. And today I am talking with Jessie Kwak. Jessie is an author and business book ghostwriter living in Portland, Oregon. She writes twisty thrillers, space scoundrel sci-fi crime novels, and a handful of productivity books, including From Chaos to Creativity and From Big Idea to Book. And you can find her at jessiekwak.com, which I will put in the show notes. So Jesse, thanks so much for joining me. Yeah, thank you for having me. So I know you from the author community and I also know you do a lot of different forms of creativity, including fiber arts, sewing, writing, of course, and other things. So I always like to ask people what your creative roots are. Like, did you come from a creative family? Were you a creative child? What do you want to say about your creative roots? Yeah, I come from a super creative family. My dad is a farmer and he's always been an inventor. And so even from childhood, he's always kind of inventing different ways of like, he'll weld this cool new thing for his tractor that just helps him do the work better. So he always was kind of thinking outside the box of like, what can I do here and how can I change this? But then he's also very artistic as well in some of his like welded creations, but then also he plays, he plays guitar, he's a songwriter. And then my mom, she's also very musical. And so, you know, they would sing together, she played piano, taught us how to play. And she's a teacher, so she's always, you know, she was trying to like come up with cool ways of teaching different concepts, which of course she would experiment on my sister and I. So we were always in the kitchen, you know, putting baking soda and vinegar together, doing all sorts of stuff. So yeah, both of my parents were just like, hey, let's just try something cool and different and new. And so my sister and I both grew up very creatively. That's great. And I also, I love that you include in creativity, the really practical arts, because of course, humans have always been creative in very practical ways, Weaving baskets or, you know, making dishes, things like that. And we too often, I think, forget about that when we're talking about creativity in the arts. So I love that you talk about your dad welding something for his tractor. Right, of course that's creative. Yeah, I think, I mean, growing up on a farm, mean, a lot of my family is very blue collar and they always are looking at me like, wow, I can't believe you write books. I could never do anything that creative. And I'm like, look at what you just did though. I couldn't do that. That's like, how do you even do that with a car engine? You know? Yeah, yeah, I also come from a blue collar working class family and I'm definitely the odd person out. But my siblings were very creative and still are creative. Although I think they were more actively creative when they were younger, which is something I've seen as I've gotten older. I've seen that with some of my friends from my youth who were very creative and they sort of let active creativity fall by the wayside. But I think they can still and do still find other ways to be creative, like what you're talking about, you know, whether it's fixing a car engine or building a fence or whatever, right? um So it's helpful for me to remind myself that I can still expand my version of creativity. Yeah, and I think, I mean, as all of us get older, we're just told to be more practical. I mean, I even think about my creative outlets now. I mean, so many of them are around my business, and they may look more on the surface creative because they are writing, but, you know, I don't do as much just playful creativity as I used to. I actually, a couple of years ago, I... I remembered how much I loved making those little figurines and stuff out of that sculpey clay that you bake. And so I ended up buying a whole bunch of different colors and just making stuff for fun and not even, you know, I'd make beads and I wouldn't even put holes in them. I was just in it for like making the prettiness of putting the colors together. And I just kept challenging myself like, don't... Don't go into this with a project of mine. Don't be like I will make a necklace and sell it on Etsy because I'm always trying to like monetize all of my hobbies. Like some of them just need to be fun. Yeah, it is an issue. mean, you know, I write for a living and I also do my own covers and cover design. I love because it's a very different skill set and it gives my brain a rest from writing. It's so it's definitely creative and I love it. But I used to do a lot more music. I really don't do much music anymore, which is a loss. But part of it was music is a shared activity for me. Because I'm a singer and a drummer, I can't just sit and noodle with my guitar, you know. And so I no longer have that outlet of friends to make music with. And so I just don't really make music anymore. So the thing I picked up that I won't monetize is amateur photography. You know, I go for walks every day in various neighborhoods around the city and take photos and that's something that's very soothing and pleasing to me. You know, I get to frame a shot, you know, and I appreciate it changes my relationship with the world. You know, just having that little quiet creative outlet that doesn't have money attached to it. Yeah, that is such a... well, you do that with sewing, right? You make a lot of your own clothing and you're not selling it. Yeah, I do. And I did go through a little phase where I was selling things on Etsy and I had to stop because I was like, I can't. It's taking the joy out of this thing that used to be a relaxing hobby. Yeah. Now do you are an amateur at, that you aren't expected to be perfect at and that you're not meeting anyone else's expectations and you can just do because you're like, well, that looked fun to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, photography is kind of the only thing I'm doing on an amateur level these days. And you know, I think part of it is, as we age, our lives just get full, right? And it's easy to just get busy. And since I work for myself, the work list is endless. And when I take a break, I don't necessarily want to do something else that's creative, which is strange, you know. And I'm wondering now if it limits my imagination a little bit to mostly be creating for profit. And I don't know, I don't have an answer for that. Yeah, because I do think when you are creating so much, like you have to refill the creative well as and sometimes you can do that by doing other sorts of creativity. But other times, like you just need to sit and read a book or watch a film or, you know, those sorts of things that feel like, it's not it's not as productive because I'm not actually being creative. But Yeah, I'm always running into that myself. Like, man, I don't want to spend time solving this like creative problem. I just want to knit and watch in like pure stockinette. Or I don't have to think about it at all and just like watch a series on Netflix. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I used to do years ago when I was going to a lot of meetings, I would do embroidery as a way to occupy the part of my mind that is so impatient with meetings. And uh I tried picking up embroidery again a few years ago, but it just didn't stick. The things that seem to stick are things like reading, watching films, listening to music. I listen to a lot of music and then going for walks, being in nature. All that really refills my well. So, and I guess that's enough because I still have plenty of creativity to put out in the world. So maybe it's okay. And I guess it has to be okay, right? Yeah, I think you're doing alright. Yeah. So do you do much with music anymore or was that more a childhood thing? I learned how to play piano when I was in elementary school. And then I joined band in middle school and high school where I played flute and then I also played bass guitar in the jazz band, which I then kept on through college. So through college, I was very involved in music. And I was actually just saying to somebody the other day, I have a guitar that my dad gave me for Christmas years ago, and I rarely play it. because the process of rebuilding up your calluses to a point where it's fun to play the guitar again, like it takes so long and there's no end to point for me where I'm like, well, if I play guitar all the time, then I'll be able to play it in a band or camp. I don't know. There's just no, I'm not motivated enough for it. But I do have this dream that someday I'm gonna be a little old lady with my stand-up bass with several other little old people who we're gonna be like, I don't know, Jessie and the Old Bitties. And we're gonna play at like Tuesday night, the 4 p.m. happy hour at some like local Louisiana Southern restaurant. And that's gonna be our standing Tuesday afternoon happy hour gig. We're gonna like drink Manhattan's and play jazz standards. and it's just gonna be a wonderful little retirement gig. I'm very excited about that. That sounds like a beautiful future. I love that. That's great. I do have to pick up my bodhran play Irish drum along with singing. I do have to pick that up and start practicing again because I'm joining a pickup band for Worldcon with some other authors. So that'll be fun. I haven't played in a with a band for a long time. So well, I can't wait to hear you perform. Yeah. So this brings me to various forms of practice. mean, clearly all creativity requires practice, but I'm also wondering what sorts of spiritual or physical practices help keep you going and help keep you grounded and open. Yeah, in an ideal day, I'll wake up, do some journaling, meditate, do some yoga, and then kind of get into my writing with my breakfast and my coffee. And when I do that, it is just so wonderful. And do I do that every day? No, but I at least do it a couple times a week. And it is just such a smooth start to my day. The meditation practice and the... especially I think has been really invaluable to me over the years. what helps you most from the meditation practice? like what does it do for you? what does it offer you? It's interesting because it never feels like it's doing something in the moment. I mean, I'm always sitting there just being like, my gosh, my brain just won't shut up. And, you know, I'm not doing it right, or if only I was more focused. But what I find is that in stressful moments later in the day, I've developed an ability to just stop, take a breath, recenter and move forward. Yeah. and to just regulate my own responses and nervous system in a way that I wasn't able to before I started meditating. And I don't know, I don't think anybody told me that that's what was gonna happen. I was like, I think I went into meditation thinking, this is a nice thing that makes you calm when you do it. But it actually gives you this really powerful tool that you can just. You can tap in throughout the day, sometimes subconsciously, sometimes very consciously, I think. No, no, no, just take a breath and we'll be okay. But I find it happening very unconsciously as well, which is pretty incredible. Yeah, it's similar for me. I find that if I can start the day with some meditation or prayer or candle lighting, you know, even if it's a day where I feel scattered and so I don't settle in for a very long time, it does what I call setting a template for my day so that I do have that foundation to return to. And it's very important to me, actually, and I've been doing those sorts of practices for decades now. And That has also built itself up, right? So that I'm not starting from scratch all the time because I've been doing it for so long. So I don't need to sit for 20 to 40 minutes anymore, know, five to 10 will do because it's kind of like muscle memory. You know, I've got this kind of internal spiritual equilibrium memory that helps me. Yeah, and I guess I want to be clear for anybody who might be thinking about taking up meditation. Like, I have a very sporadic meditation practice. I, you know, I use the Calm app and when I look back through it, sometimes I have really nice streaks of, you know, maybe a whole month, but other times it's like, oh, it's been three weeks or it's once three or four times a month for 10 minutes each. And, you know, it's not like... an all or nothing thing, it can be very powerful even if you have a really half ass sporadic practice like I do. Now, does some of your tactile creativity act as a form of centering or meditation? Like, what is sewing like for you, for example? yeah, absolutely. think the sewing, because it's very problem solving, it works in the same way that maybe like a, you know, you were talking about designing book covers, like it's visual interesting problem. And so sewing for me is kind of takes my brain in a different direction. But it's, it's not maybe as centering because it can also be really frustrating. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. but something that's more like the sculpey beads where it's like i am just here to like make a thing for no particular reason or my husband actually for christmas this year got me a few of those book nook miniature kits and my gosh they're so fun and i love it because it's completely impractical you're just like making these tiny little potted plants or little teeny books and i am I'm suddenly very into making miniatures. That is cool, I love it. And it decorates your bookcases. Yeah. I don't, I actually don't have very much room on my bookcases. So I don't know where to put these. I know I see ads for those and they look so beautiful and then I'm like, where would they even fit? How do you squeeze them in? I know, yeah, some people, you know, Instagram or TikTok, they've got these gorgeous shelves that are so perfectly curated and I'm like, my books are two layers deep and stacked on top of each other. Yeah, yeah, the bookcase becomes an art form, I think, for those people. Yeah, yeah, that's that's funny. So speaking of books, when did you really start committing to writing? Like, is writing always been a thing you've done? Did you did you find yourself more interested in it later? How did that work for you? I've always been interested in writing ever since I was a kid. liked writing down stories. Mom, think still has one of my very first stories, which looking at it, it's kind of, I think it was like a knockoff of a children's book that I'd read. But whatever, right? Imitation is the way you learn how to do things. And so I actually wrote my first novel length book in high school and I then kind of kept working on books through college and I, so I've always been working on something, but it was 2016 was the first, the year that I published my first novel. And that was the first book that I had written that felt book shaped. Like I had written a bunch of things that were long stories that didn't quite work. And yeah, I'd slowly been honing my process. And then by the time From Earth and Bone was my first novel that I published. by the time I'd written that I like looked at it and I was like this works this is a story. ehh What made it feel different to you? What, like what quality did it have? Was it just beginning, middle, end? Was it how the characters worked? Was it the plot line? Like, because I'm sure listeners would love to know the difference because I know a lot of people struggle with writing and finishing. Like my issue, when I was trying to write fiction decades ago, I wouldn't finish things, right? I had trouble finding that through line and making it to even the end of the story. But it sounds like you were finishing things. So what was the qualitative difference? Can you explain it? Yeah, I'll see if I can. So yes, I was finishing things. had written full-length books, and most of them were fantasy. And part of my problem was that I had this really big world that I had been playing in for years, and things were just extremely complicated. And I think especially a lot of people who write sci-fi or fantasy We started off reading Lord of the Rings and Dune and some of these like massive, massive series that we're like, this is what I want to write. And so then we developed these ideas that are far too enormous for a beginning writer to handle properly. So I think part of it was that, that I just had this sprawling idea that wasn't clicking. Part of it was just kind of getting a handle on pacing and character development and theme and how all of those things can work together to have this really, you know, awesome forward momentum. And so I knew that I had some of it there, but it wasn't through the whole book. And it just didn't, it didn't feel like a satisfying read. If I was a reader and picked it up, I'd be like, man, what a meandering mess. And then from Earth and Bone, It's a contemporary thriller set in Seattle about a woman who gets possessed by her sister's boyfriend's ghost and then has to kind of solve his murder and also figure out how to get him out of there. And so it was very, there's a very simple problem, right? It's not this huge global fantasy world catastrophe. It's a very simple problem with a very simple solution or not simple solution, but you know, know when the story's over. Did she exercise herself, her ghost, the ghost and also solve his murder and come to terms with her relationship with her sister and all of those things. Do they wrap up at the end? Yes, excellent. And because it's got that more thriller pacing, I think I was, I did a lot better job of keeping myself focused on the story and what needed to be there instead of like meandering around doing other things. And so I think that book, set me up for success in going back to these bigger worlds. My next sci-fi series was a much larger, more sprawly world, but I'd learned how to write tightly to a specific point. And yeah, I was then able to take those skills and be like, all right, let's tackle something a little bit more expansive, but still know how to keep myself on point. That's cool. So you went from thriller to science fiction and now you're back to thriller. Yeah, I mean, I think I love reading sci-fi, but I really love reading thrillers. And most of my sci-fi books do have kind of that more thriller pacing. But I finally, a year or so ago, I was talking to a friend who had switched from writing sci-fi to writing thrillers. And I think I always just thought, I'm how that's kind of scary to write like contemporary thriller that people could really fact check and I'm gonna get the guns wrong and the police wrong and you know all of those things that people are gonna yell at you for. And I was like no I'll just stay in my sci-fi lane. And so I was talking to this friend and I was like you know what made you switch to writing thrillers? And he was like you know I just realized that's all I read. And I was like man that's all I read too. Maybe if you could do it maybe I could do it. So I started thinking about it and then really, you I kind of got to a wrap-up point with my sci-fi series and I was like, what's next? And in the sci-fi world, I was like, all right, I kind of have half an idea that I might work on. And then I was like, but what if I let myself think about writing thrillers? And it was like, well, I have three dozen ideas that would be really fun. I was like, all right, let's play around over here for a minute. Yeah, that's interesting. I also have to write from my gut. Like, what's drawing me in, you know? Just recently, so I've started a new contemporary fantasy series, The Rimer of Ashgrove, and I'm done with book one. It's been through the editor. I'm in production right now getting ready to run a Kickstarter soon for it. And I have an idea for book two, I already know some of the themes and so I started writing book two, but because of other things going on in my life and the world right now, and also I think because I'm still heavy in the production facet of book one, I found I didn't want to write it. And what I wanted to do was go back to writing one of my corgi mysteries, my Pride Street series. And so I started writing and as soon as I dropped into Marsha the Corgi's head, I was so happy. Right? And so, you know, the logical part of me said, well, you should write book two of this contemporary fantasy directly after book one, because, you know, the characters are all fresh and you know the world. And I was like, no, I need to, I need a break. I need to write this other just really fun piece of candy. you know, with a corgi detective instead. And then I'll get back to the contemporary fantasy. And I'm sure I will have a different perspective and be refreshed by that. Right. So I think creative people, we need some combination of dedication and commitment and diligence and going with the flow and writing or creating from our gut. And I think that's a hard balancing act. Do you have any thoughts about that balancing act in your own life, in your own practice? Yeah, it is absolutely a hard balancing act, I, but you're right. It's so necessary to figure out how to do that because yes, you do. If you want to make a career of this, you need to stay focused. And, you know, when you start a project, you need to finish projects. You can't like, you're not going to be a published author if you've never finished a book. Um, but also, I mean, if you are If your energy is over to the right wanting to write this thing, this cool thing over here, and that's all you're thinking about, and you are forcing yourself to stay over here in the left lane and write this other thing, like that's not gonna be sustainable in the long term. And so I think you have to figure out yourself and you have to know when is this a shiny object that I need to ignore and I'll get over it soon. And when is it, this energetic pull is actually going to lead to some momentum, and if I'm not getting any traction here, I should probably lead where, follow where the energy is leading, and follow that momentum. And you can do that on kind of a big scale and a small scale. I used to, like, I'm a freelance writer as my day job as well, so I work for myself, I have for the past 12 years, and so I have to schedule my own days, and sometimes it would be nice if somebody was telling me what to do. dropping things. Um, but I have to say, okay, I need to get this thing done by the end of the week. So therefore I need to spend X hours per day doing it. And I used to really sit down and be like, okay, from eight to 10 AM, I'm going to do this and then 10 to noon, I'll do that. And it was so draining. And I finally realized, okay, if I wake up and I'm just like dying to write an email autoresponder sequence. Yes, I know that I'm supposed to write my fiction first thing, but like, all I can think about is this cool new email autoresponder sequence that I should, that I really want to write. And I have all these ideas for it. It's like, well, don't put that aside and hope you'll come back to it later. when you have that energy, just sit down and do it. Like you can write the other thing later. So yeah, I, it's a balancing act and it really takes knowing yourself to figure out. if you're letting yourself being distracted or if you are making a good choice for your creative energy. Yeah, so I know for myself, my years of spiritual practice have helped me with that sort of self awareness and being honest with myself, you know, that here's really where my energy is today and knowing that I'll pick up the other thing tomorrow or yeah, flip flopping my afternoon work with my morning work, that sort of thing. So that's been my greatest help with that sort of self-knowledge, self-awareness and self-honesty. And I know for some people it's therapy, for other people it's a steady exercise practice. And I'm wondering if you have any tips or insights into what has helped you develop that form of self-awareness and enable you to be more honest with yourself. I think probably journaling, just kind of regular journaling check-ins. I journal almost every morning and it's not very exciting. I was actually, I was in a book club with a friend who we were reading Grapes of Wrath and he had also been reading John Steinbeck's journal during the time he was reading Grapes of Wrath or writing Grapes of Wrath. And so, this friend, and we're both writers, he was like hoping to get insight out of it. And he was like, his journal was so annoying because it was mostly just like, I need to work on this today and then I should do that. And was like, yeah, that's going to be my journal. If somebody's like, I found the great Jesse Kwak's journal, it's going to be like, today, I need to finish this client project and then go for a walk. There's no really great insights. But having that kind of regular, OK, what is my focus? Yeah. I think when you know what your priority and your focus is, whether it's you're setting a focus for the month or the week or just the day, then it really shines a spotlight on what you need to actually be doing. So, you know, a month ago, my focus was I need to finish up client projects because once those are done, then I get to do my own creative work. So, you know, every time I've had a decision between, okay, should I spend my energy doing edits on my client's book or do I have some spare time to work, you know, do a little quick drafting on my own project? If it's one or the other, I have to pick the client work because I want that off my plate. uh And also it pays me, so that's great. But if I can do both, if I have the energy, that's awesome. But having that, knowing what my focus is, makes it really easy to make those decisions. That's great. That's really helpful. And it's actually something I've picked up just this year. Excuse me. So years ago, I did the sort of rambling journaling, you know, writing about all my thoughts and processes and what I was going through. And I finally had to stop because I just was getting enmeshed too much in my own brain and thought processes and doing what I call psychologizing. events and things and it just was it had ceased to be helpful. So I didn't have a journaling practice for years and this year I finally said I need something because I've got so many balls I'm juggling and I need a better way to keep focus and you know scheduling apps and all those sort of productivity stuff doesn't work for me. So I just got a moleskin daily diary. And every morning I sit down and I write down my intention for the day. Then I write my list of tasks. I write something I'm grateful for. And then at the end of the day, I'll write just a one to two sentence, maybe a paragraph at most check-in about how the day went or what was going on. And that is really helping me, especially setting my intention and then my task list. Because my task list is endless, but it can't be. Right? If I'm actually going to get things done, I have to know what my tasks and, as you say, my focus is for the day. And so that kind of daily diary work has been really helping me this year, especially with everything else that's going on. It keeps me literally on task. Yeah, I love your story about the kind of meandering journal because years ago I tried doing like a daily morning pages, you know, writing for three pages and you know, you're just supposed to write whatever's on your mind and just don't censor yourself. And I was like, this is stressing me out. I don't need to know what's on my mind like first thing in the morning, because it's not like, it's not great. It's just, it's this meandering like. and I was, yeah, so I had to stop that because it just got what you were saying about kind of getting in this over analytic loop of, yeah, that wasn't useful to me. Yeah, I think for people who are really stuck and blocked creatively, morning pages can be a great activity because it just gets things flowing. But yeah, for some of us, it eventually becomes a trap. And you know, I think that's true of any tool or practice. You know, even my even as someone who's done a daily spiritual practice for decades now, I have to switch it up every six months to a year. you know, what exactly the shape of it is. Now it's always has similar components, but it's not always the same because we get used to things and they become the sort of habit that becomes a less fruitful habit, right? Like we need some habitual behavior, right? But then when it becomes too rote, we cease being connected to it, right? And in order to be a creative person, I find we have to have a sense of connection because if we're not feeling connected to the world around us, to our creative process, to our deeper desires, then it ends up feeling more brittle and rote and mechanical. And that's not helpful. Yeah, I mean, I think part of these creative practices is to jump you a little outside of where you normally are, you know, get you outside the box for lack of a better term right now. But, and if you, if it has just become this rote thing, you're just in the box. And so you're, this creative practice is no longer really helping you. Yeah, yeah. Is there something recently that's helping you reconnect or get outside that box? I mean, I imagine the switch from writing science fiction to thriller is doing that for you. Yeah, it's... I mean, I've really gone back to a beginner's mind with writing these books, because as I said, I mostly read thrillers, so I feel very confident in my grasp of the form as an overall, you know, structure. But when it comes to individual pieces of it, like interrogation scenes, you know, or... a thriller prologue or character introductions, I've really gone back and am setting myself a course of study of like, okay, who are the authors that I know does interrogate do interrogation scenes just amazingly well? All right, I'm going to read a bunch of those scenes and I'm, I will hand copy them and really get the rhythm of it. I actually took one of my favorite ton of French novels, which I ended up I was like, I've got two copies of this. And so I took a highlighter and a bunch of sticky notes and I just went through and was like underlining things and I was highlighting every action versus every interpretation of that action. you know, if like she shifted her leg and I thought it meant blah, blah. So I highlight she shifted her leg in pink and then whatever the detective's kind of assumption was. in orange. And I just did that through like every single conversation scene so I could see how she was doing these kind of visual clues with interpretations of those clues and giving us info dumps and things like that. And I was so I highlighted this book just to hell and it was really fun. But yeah, so that's been kind of just having this beginner mind of like I've written over a dozen novels, but It's almost as though I'm learning how to write one again, which is really cool. yeah. Yeah, I found that I love that practice, by the way. That's brilliant. And I found with my new contemporary fantasy series, the Rhymer of Ashgrove series, I in some ways had to relearn, you know, I mean, I learned something new with every book. It doesn't matter. Even my books in my. ongoing series, I'm always learning something. But with this, felt like I really wanted to level up. And so I was studying other people's writing, not as thoroughly as you are, which I just think is a terrific idea. But I would pause in reading something and think, that use of language is very interesting and how they are describing the setting. is very rich here and I want to do more of that, right? So I carried that in, I feel like it's slotted into my subconscious and I carried that through the new book and it was really fun and satisfying to try to consciously level up my craft in that way. Yeah, it's very different, because it's fun to read a book and just like blaze through it, to really force yourself to slow down can, it's difficult, but it's a really fun way of. of savoring good writing too. And you said you're hand copying. Are you writing things out in longhand also? Yeah, and I actually, I got this idea from a course that I took a couple years back, a copywriting course where every day it's called Copy Hour, and every day the guy emails you a kind of a little short lesson about, you know, headlines or introductions or different ways of telling stories on sales pages, and then also an example of sales copy that does that well. And so it was a really cool like, exercise of, you you would then take 30 minutes and copy that piece out. And so his theory was, you know, you've got the lesson here, you've learned that now, like, just really integrate that by physically writing it out. And there's, mean, there's a lot of science behind like, handwriting and note taking and how that actually helps you connect with the material better. So I was like, yeah, I should do that in my new kind of thriller course of study. And I don't write out like entire, I kind of write until my hand gets tired. And then I'm like, all right, next thing. Well, and there's something just about engaging the body in creative practice that changes everything. You know, it's one reason I go for so many walks, right? And I do that as a reset for my brain and as a way to also just gather more information, right? Because the more in our heads we are, the flatter our worlds that we're creating become, right? We need all that sensory input. And so the tactileness of writing something longhand really changes things, not only in our brain chemistry, but just the fact that our body is working with us on this act of creation, right? You know, and I know you do a lot of physical exercise too. know you ride your bike and do other things. And there's something about creative people who are able to engage the body in whatever way they're able to, we all have different limitations of course. I think it adds a certain richness, right? And part of it is about our relationship to the world around us and then what we bring back into our creative process. So, you know, how much time are you spending on physical things as opposed to brain work? Probably not enough. I'm spending a lot of these days in front of the computer, yeah. But one of the tools that I've kind of picked up over the years is dictation. And so I will actually go on dictation walks and just wander through my neighborhood telling myself stories or we live near a really lovely rose garden, kind of a neighborhood rose garden. And so I'll walk out to this garden and just sit there and admire the roses and I mean, I've written entire short stories and big sections of novels just like looking at roses in the garden or wandering through them. So that's, that is one way that I try to, I mean, I guess actively engage my body as my, as I'm actually working. That's cool. Well, I'm wondering, currently, do you have a connection to your why, to your current purpose? It doesn't have to be a big thing, but even something small, is there something you are willing to share with us about that? Yeah, so I mean, one of the main reasons that I write fiction of any sort is just kind of giving, connecting readers with characters whose lives they might not know anything about. I've realized over the years that's is a big part of why I read is to put myself in the shoes of somebody who's not like me and have an opportunity to develop my empathy towards humanity. And so that's a big part of my why is, you know, I like to write really fun, engaging stories that people will want to read because they're fun and engaging. But at the end, it's like, yeah, you got to be in the point of view of a Black bi man. Like, how was that for you? Like, you know, I hope, you know, I will have these kind of older conservative male often, you know, because it's sci-fi readers who will reach out and be like, know, I just love that book and I'm so glad that Manu and Oriol finally got together and I'm just like, I'm so, that makes me really happy. Because they, you know, it's not something they might have picked up if they were like, I'm gonna have to read a gay storyline, a gay love story. I'm like, no it's just, he's a hitman, don't worry about it, just like enjoy the sci-fi hitman and his husband. I love that because, you know, it's a reminder for us all that we all can change someone's perspective and therefore someone's life through the smallest ways, right? It doesn't have to be this massive, profound thing. It's just, yeah, you just happen to write this character who's a bisexual hit man in a rollicking science fiction adventure world. You know, what a great entry point. to open people's minds. Yeah, so I mean, it's definitely, I wouldn't say that I have like a secret agenda around that necessarily. Like I am just, I live in a world and I look around it and I see all the amazing variety of people that are around me. And why would my stories not reflect that? So I'm, yeah, I'm not like going into this with like, I have to, you know, check all these different boxes or whatever. But I have realized over the years that like, part, that is a big part of my why, is reflecting the world around me in my writing in a way that invites readers who may not, who maybe may not have the luxury of living in a place where it's a very diverse, interesting place to live. Like, you know, maybe they don't know anybody who's openly out as gay, like, but maybe they can meet someone in my book and, you know. That's so that there's part of my why building empathy. Building empathy, I love it. And one last question. What's currently inspiring you? Ooh. What is currently inspiring me? So we took a trip to Scotland back in August. Yes, it was last August. And I got an idea for a thriller set on the Isle of Harris. And so that's kind of what I've been playing around with lately. And so I am just like submersing myself in like all of these moody Scottish authors. Hmm. And it's been so fun. Like it's now, you know, as we're recording this, is springtime in Portland and it's beautiful. And I'm just like, take me to the moody, rainy, Scottish coast. That's awesome. So you're inspired by different worlds. That's yeah. Well, and I love, I love Scotland so much. my gosh. It's beautiful. Yeah, it's fun to, I mean, that's another reason I write is just armchair travel. And real travel. I mean, it's, it's very, I think that's another thing that I'm loving about writing these thrillers is like, it's very fun to be like, I'm going to go visit that place and, you know, call it a book research trip. I can't go visit New Sargeant and all of these other planets I've made up, but I can go visit. like some really cool spots in the Pacific Northwest and you know. Yeah. Speaking of the Pacific Northwest, where I also live, do you have a favorite tree of the Pacific Northwest? I love dogwoods. They're my absolute favorite, and they are all in bloom right now. oh I love the ones that have like the really bright pink flowers. We have one in our backyard that's got more of a creamy white pink, and I get to see it every day as I stand by my desk. That is beautiful. Thank you so much for that. Well, thanks for joining me. Any last words of wisdom before we close? Finish things! Finish things, don't let yourself get distracted. Follow your energy, but definitely finish things. Yeah, that is, that's very helpful. Thanks so much. Thank you for joining me. This has been a great conversation. And thanks to all our listeners. You can, as always, find me at thorncoil.com and you can find Jessie at jessiequack.com. That's K-W-A-K.com. And I will hopefully run into you all next time. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jessie. I really appreciated how she talked about switching gears from writing science fiction to thrillers, navigating creativity, what dedication and commitment and maintaining focus looks like in her life, and just how she balances a lot of different facets of work, life, and creativity along with spiritual practice. So I'm wishing you a wonderful day. And once again, I thank my Patreon supporters without whom these podcasts would not exist. If you'd like to join my Patreon crew, please head to patreon.com backslash thorn coyle That's T H O R N C O Y L E. Thank you again for joining me. Have a magical creative day.