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You Are Not Alone - Work Edition
Join us as HR and Leadership professionals discuss the challenges of work and ways they have found to muddle through. We laugh, we cry, we get real.
You Are Not Alone - Work Edition
Feedback Fatigue
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In this insightful conversation, Emily Walton and Joshua explore the nuances of effective feedback, leadership development, and organizational growth. They discuss how to give constructive feedback, the importance of psychological safety, and strategies for continuous improvement in teams and organizations. In this episode, Emily Walton and Joshua explore effective feedback strategies, leadership development, and fostering a growth-oriented culture. They discuss practical frameworks, the importance of care, and how to create an environment where feedback drives long-term growth.
Key Topics
- Effective feedback techniques
- The role of psychological safety in teams
- Strategies for continuous improvement
- Leadership development across organizational sizes Feedback frameworks and timing
- The importance of care in leadership
- Developing skills for future roles
Get In Touch
Thanks so much for spending this time with us. We’d love to hear what resonated, what challenged you, or what you’d like us to explore next.
You can connect with Joshua on LinkedIn here and with Emily here. You can also learn more about Emily's work at alocoaching.com.
Until next time, take care.
Keywords
feedback, leadership, organizational growth, psychological safety, continuous improvement, communication skills, leadership development, effective feedback, team management, organizational culture leadership, feedback, growth, development, organizational culture, coaching, performance, communication, emotional intelligence
Get In Touch
Thanks so much for spending this time with us. We’d love to hear what resonated, what challenged you, or what you’d like us to explore next.
You can connect with Joshua on LinkedIn here and with Emily here. You can also learn more about Emily's work at alocoaching.com.
Until next time, take care.
Hey team, welcome to You Are Not Alone, the Work Edition. So, what we're hoping here with this is to give you a monthly conversation of a lot of the topics that you're going to experience in your work and sometimes even in your personal life. Why we've said that this is you are not alone is because so much of what we can do in the leadership space, the team space, we have those moments of like, am I going crazy? Is this just am I the only one experiencing this? And this is the opportunity to spend 30 minutes with us each month over new topics and just find out how not alone you are. There's there's a question that's kind of brewing in my mind, and that question has kind of transformed itself in terms of like how I want to approach today. And it's because I've I have been thinking a lot about how I've been thinking a lot about receiver and sender, because receiver and sender has come up a lot in my life recently.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01So the the question that I've kind of formulated, and the question I have for you, the question I have for listeners and friends is like, have you ever walked away from a from a feedback conversation, right? Have you ever you had feedback, you walked away from it, and you somehow feel worse about yourself than you did walking into it, but you couldn't point out a single cruel thing that they said?
SPEAKER_02Interesting. Um ish. Ish-ish would probably be my answer because a couple things come to mind. One is like, what's my mindset about receiving the feedback? Am I open to it? Was I in a good headspace? You know, was something like I was dealing with something maybe on a personal level and I just wasn't ready for it. Or did I have an entirely different belief? Like everything was great and they gave me some feedback, and especially as like a recovering perfectionist, you know, like then if it's not perfect, it's wrong. Right. So that is in some instances. And then other times, two other things come to mind. One is when people just give you like a blanket statement of like, well, this could be better, or like, you're, you know, you're doing fine, or thank you for the work you've done this year, but you feel like you've killed it. And it's like nobody said anything really mean or or cruel or pointed. But again, I think some of that's me pulling things out of it instead of clarifying. And the other piece to that is, um, and you would probably know this better than I would, but I grew up in the Northeast, Eastern European heritage, so very direct, very blunt, tell you like it is. Um, and I would actually, I actually handle better someone saying, like, I need that, like another hole in the head. I handle that better than some of I call them complice ults that you get in the southern culture.
SPEAKER_01They're they're a little backhanded. Right. Right. And you're and you're supposed to get that and then use your your southeastern translator, right? And be like, oh, that's what they meant. They actually meant I was trash.
SPEAKER_02And I don't have that. Like sometimes it will be weeks or months later, or I'll tell someone else and they'll translate it for me. And I go, that's what's happening, which maybe's for the better. I just will not. Okay.
SPEAKER_01I so for me, I definitely I like feedback direct, right? Clarity is kindness. Thank you. Yes, thank you, Brene. But I I also believe that you have to bring that clarity to where they are, right? Like you like, because sometimes I think that clarity is kindness. We've hit around this before, and I won't stay on this topic for for too long, but like I do believe there's a little bit of harmfulness around radical candor. I'm sorry. So that's gonna that's a hot take.
SPEAKER_02So we're but I'm with you because I think that without without the guardrails in place, that can be weaponized.
SPEAKER_01It can be.
SPEAKER_02You know, I just said it and I and I said it straight up and I told you what it is. There is there's a way to be direct and give feedback without being a jerk.
SPEAKER_01100%. And the idea behind feedback is I'm going to give this in a way that when I have to give feedback again, it's welcome. When I the mindset that I have as a leader, be it right or wrong, is that when I give feedback, I have to understand that there will also be feedback again and feedback again. And over the length of our time together, there will be feedback. So I have to make sure that I'm always delivering that feedback in a way that you're not just receptive to the first round, you'll be just as receptive to the second round, to the third round, to the fourth round, right? I'm building an environment where I am laying the groundwork for the fourth round of feedback, not just the first.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think that's important because if you only go in with like the here and now mindset and you completely damage the relationship, you're gonna have to do a lot more work, or people just aren't going to act on it or become really reactive to your feedback. It really is the long-term play. Like it's over the whole relationship. If we're talking gaming, like this is not a one-shot.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. And we love gamification. Welcome to welcome to anything in 2026. So, Emily, let me ask you. This, this, this question is important to me. What's what's the difference to you? I know what the difference is to me. What's the difference to you between, you know, feedback, continuous improvement, and consistent criticism?
SPEAKER_02The first thing that comes to mind is what is your intention? Because if you intend to make someone realize, hey, you didn't do it the way I like it, or you're not as good as me, or some way to kind of keep them down and contained, right? That's not feed, that's not the purpose of feedback. The purpose of feedback as we're discussing it is to help people develop and grow and have sustained progress over time. And so I think intention is the first thing that comes to mind. And then also desired outcome. You know, if you're telling someone you're nitpicking their behavior, you're micromanaging something, that's very different from hey, actually, this cost us money or this skipped a step in the process. It created a long jam, you know, down the road. That's different when you're giving feedback and and helping people see how they can make progress and improvements and prevent issues in the future. And ultimately, nitpicking is like a consistent feedback, and it's gonna keep somebody here. Feedback is an investment so they can come here.
SPEAKER_01I love that. Quick sidebar to the word nitpick. I believe nitpick is something, is a feedback mechanism that happens because a person doesn't have a process. Right? Like the most feed the when I get nitpicky feedback, it's typically because I didn't use the right format, the right layout. I didn't like, I didn't have a specific style of wording that like is consistent with what's been used in the past. And I think when we lose process, we open the door for nitpick. That is that is one way of handling feedback. The other way can be inviting them in. Hey, you know, we've been doing this process for a little bit. You know, you kind of own this process. Where do you see improvements that we can come into play? Right.
SPEAKER_02I really appreciate what you said there because um I think a lot of times, and I work with a lot of people who, you know, have to have difficult conversations. I've had to have many difficult conversations. We don't like them, we're not comfortable, we get very much in our own heads and we lose sight of the fact that it is a conversation with another person and it's an exchange of information. And they don't necessarily have to receive it, but they may receive it, they may have some follow-up questions. It should be a conversation and not a like unidirectional blasting point. That's not feedback, that's land blasting someone.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like I mean, it's just, and sometimes it can, and sometimes it can get to the territory where the feedback now becomes like a punching bag where, and if a leader is not more careful, and if a leader is not very, very strong, it can get to a place where whatever kind of day I'm having is going to inform the feedback that I'm giving you. And it absolutely is no longer about improvement. It is in the sense of leader needs to improve their mood. So they're going to let you know what's going on.
SPEAKER_02Right. But there is a certain level of maturity required to be able to register and recognize that, hey, I'm having a bad day. And maybe today is not the day for me to deliver this feedback, or I need to be very intentional with the words I choose because very, and you said strong leaders earlier. I want to like draw a line under that because I think you and I both think of strong leaders not as brute force. I come over the top, get in line, or the else kind of leaders, but very effective leaders who are able to navigate these challenges because we've talked about it before. You don't check your channel your problems at the door. The higher you go up in leadership, the more weight and challenges you are facing. But it does not serve you as a leader to unload on someone else instead of give them constructive feedback because that does not help move the collective weight of what you're carrying forward. It might make you feel slightly better for about five minutes because you've vented some of that frustration, but there are other options available to you to handle those emotions and still be an effective leader. And that's a strong leader.
SPEAKER_01100%. Strong is an emotional quotient, right? It is, it's it's a soft skill. Like strong is soft, right? When it when it comes to leadership. You know, you you said constructive there. And when you said that, the thought that immediately popped into my head is what's the root word of constructive and it's construct. And that means that the feedback is meant to build something.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_01And and what are you building, right? So we always want the idea when we use constructive criticism when we use those words, right? I will always be in the camp that criticism has a negative connotation.
SPEAKER_03It does.
SPEAKER_01So when when I say, Emily, I'm gonna give you some constructive criticism. I want you to know when I say that it's not coming from a place of positivity. So even though I have said the word constructive at the front of it, which is a positive, and you're like, you said constructive, we're about to do something good. Oh, he said criticism, I'm about to cry. Like there, I believe there is a negative connotation inherently built into it that actually deserves to exist, right? Because I've never had anyone go, Joshua, I'm gonna give you some constructive criticism and me walk away from it going, needed that.
SPEAKER_02Now I feel great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's boy, I want to run through a wall for them. That was good stuff, you know. But there is such a thing as like constructive feedback and and constructive conversations, you know.
SPEAKER_02I don't know a word for it, but for me, there's more framing and scaffolding for it. Because I do think there are a couple of feedback conversation starters that put people on the defensive.
SPEAKER_00100%.
SPEAKER_02First is I'm gonna give you some feedback.
SPEAKER_00I'm already on defense.
SPEAKER_02My personal least favorite, which I did have a boss text me one time, I did not sleep a wink for the night, was tomorrow morning we need to talk. Dead.
SPEAKER_03Like immediate spiral. What have I done?
SPEAKER_01And we are we're in a we're in a world now, by the way, where everybody has anxiety. So like there's always some level of like under still water, there's still movement. So there's no such thing as an unanxious person. So yes, I have received that exact same message before and been like, not only did you ruin tomorrow, but you end my sleep. Yeah, you have effectively ruined today for me too. Right. Like, because it's been so important that we need to talk about it. We should probably talk about it right now, by the way. So let's just go ahead and hash it out.
SPEAKER_02A couple of things that I have learned over time to do when things like that surface, first off, are like I'm gonna ask now. Instead of just tomorrow morning we need to talk, okay, and then I go into a cold sweat, is okay, great. What do I need to prepare? What's the point of, you know, what's the topic we're covering? Things like that. Because we assume the worst. We're like, we're just wired to assume the worst. And I don't think that that's unexpected when you walk into work and hey, we're laying off a thousand people today. You know, those that's like organizational trauma. It leaves marks. So those marks are there, even if that's not happening where you are now. If you've experienced that in the past, you know, you you just we're we're wired to protect ourselves. So I'm gonna ask questions. And then after that, it's like, what are the boundaries I need to have in place in order to support myself? Like, okay, I'm gonna talk it over with, you know, my support team and we're gonna come up with a plan. And then I'm gonna go for a walk or go to the gym or whatever it is to take care of what I need so that it's not at least preparing for those conversations, it's not great. And I show up and now I'm sleep deprived and in a highly anxious and reactive state. And when my boss texted me that the next morning was just something like, you know, we have to move some accounts around. I need you to oversee that, which is a very for for the work I was doing right every day.
SPEAKER_01And there and there's no way we couldn't have done that at 9.05 a.m. Like that that prompt could not have happened in the morning. Like, I could we have not like we're gonna, we're gonna talk about the day no matter what. So, like, can we not have that conversation? I don't, yeah, I hate that at all. I um I hear this expression a lot, and I purposely go out of my way in leadership not to do it. It is called, it is, and you know, you know it, it's the compliment sandwich. If I could get rid of that, I would. Like, I I think that is a net negative. Even if you're saying it's compliment and feedback, compliment. The whole point of the two compliments is the negative. So no, so if I go so if I come up to you and give up and it's and you see what is happening, you understand that I'm only leading with a compliment and ending with a positive because I needed you to understand the middle. So the first two, the first and the last don't even actually matter.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And in everything that I've read and in everything that I've experienced, compliment sandwiches are not effective. And it's really, if we're getting to the root of it, we're calling it out for what it is. It's you trying to make yourself feel better for having to put some of them back.
SPEAKER_01It is 100% for the sender. It is in no way for the receiver. Because you get to walk away from that going, man, I gave them two up and one down. I'm a great leader.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That's and that's but people leave and that that's not how they feel. And I think that I think that happens. I think it's sort of a self-soothing tactic because we want people to like us. That's often an underlying factor, is like the people pleaser. I don't want to ruffle any feathers. But we've talked about this too before, is like you can be direct and clear and firm and kind and liked and ultimately respected. You will be more respected if people understand what they're going to receive when they interact with you than if it's well, they like to say all these nice things, but then out of the blue, they come along with this negativity. Yeah, that's that's gonna send mixed signals to people, and that's it doesn't necessarily measure effective feedback that's been given. Just because you can compliment someone on the work that they've done when you have to give constructive feedback or when you have to talk about something that did not go to plan, or you know, what the volume of the feedback is not equatable with the quality of the feedback.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's sometimes people, the most positive thing you can tell them is the thing that they can do better. Yeah, like, hey, like if I'm telling you that you can do this better, that's in if you were to come up to me and go, Joshua, I think we can do this better. Like, do you want to try this or can we try this or talk through it? That's a compliment to me. Because it tells me that you think that I, Joshua, can do better.
SPEAKER_02That, and there is a woman, her name's Angela, who I follow on LinkedIn. She's just fabulous. I love her content. And she posted recently about like reframing feedback where it is a kindness to give feedback because, and I have seen this time and time again, places I've worked where people aren't giving someone feedback, they're not meeting the mark, and then they lose their job.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02Because we weren't comfortable to point out areas that they needed to develop and equip them to do so. And that to me is a cost I don't want to be responsible for carrying.
SPEAKER_01Right. Pulp a good lead, a strong leader will want to again invest in that team. Make sure that the I'm gonna use the word decisor seen, right? And and you're poured into, right? If there's if there's cracks in the concrete, what do you do? You pour into the concrete, you shore it up, you make it like you smooth it out. Well, I if I see as a leader that there are gaps and areas of opportunity and improvement, I want to attack those, you know, and I'm and I'm using like I'm I'm using a language that seems, you know, violent, but what I'm what I'm really saying here is like I want to to look at those problems and go, I'm not going to ignore that. I care too much about the people on my team to let them continuously be put in a spot where they can't be successful.
SPEAKER_02And I think I want to take that even bigger in a sense, because it's one thing to look at your team and realize, for example, I work with a lot of sales individuals. It is one thing to be, let's say, the VP of a sales department and you have you have to set the goals. You are the revenue drivers for the organization and you have to go after those. And if you see that someone has a gap in their skills and some feedback and some development would help them, it's not just a matter of your team. It is an organizational matter. Because if you don't hit those goals and those same gaps are replicated in other people or other issues are in other people, and you're not helping to develop them, the impact is much bigger than your team. I think sometimes it's very easy to say, oh, it's fine, or you know, I don't want to be hard on them. And you don't have to be hard on them. But we can't just dismiss the need to give feedback to people and help them develop because we're uncomfortable with it. Because the impact is so much bigger than that. I actually want to pivot a little bit.
SPEAKER_03Pivot away.
SPEAKER_02It's not a little, I lied. Because this question keeps surfacing for me. And I'm curious, I'm happy to put my thoughts in, but I'm curious from your experiences too. Of we've talked about feedback fatigue, we've talked about, you know, nitpicking and like micromanaging. But I'm curious what are good frameworks for framing feedback effectively? What are things that need to be considered? What are phrases that can open the door? What are phrases to avoid? Just from your experience, because I imagine working in human resources, you've had to give out a little bit of feedback and coach a couple people on how to do it. So I'd love to hear from you what would be your like hot takes if you had to give someone advice on that.
SPEAKER_01I think the big thing for me in getting into a new feedback cycle and a new feedback loop and then having that framework and structure is one, making it consistent. We've talked about continuous improvement. We have talked about consistent criticism. Here's here's what I mean. Not consistent. Let me re let me rephrase expected. I expect to know how it went when I finish. Does that mean I'm going to I have a positive expectation? Hey, like I feel like I've really done a like, you know, I've done a really great job on this. I'm sure there's some areas of improvement, but like we succeeded. Am I expecting a, hey, I know this did not go the way it was supposed to look? And I understand that we're gonna get some improvement on how it could look in the future. Feedback should be expected. I think that we can sometimes get into this pattern, especially when a leader ignores giving feedback, that feedback is no longer expected, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Two things go ahead.
SPEAKER_00No, please go ahead.
SPEAKER_02Well, just two things were coming up for me when you were saying that. One is I would love to explore how to frame that so that feedback is expected, not only in a consistency manner, but also in a, hey, we're gonna talk about this now situation. And the other one was that I've encountered this a lot. I imagine you've probably encountered this too, where you're Working with a leader and they say, yeah, but I'm not, my team knows that's not how I've operated. How do I change that? How do I start showing up like that if I've not been doing it?
SPEAKER_01So I'll tackle the second question first, right? And that is, how do we handle change management? And my team never expected this from me. Wow, this is a change, right? I don't think you immediately kick the doors down and you're like, all right, everybody, we're in feedback town now. Like, line up at the door. You know, the feedback sheriff is here.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna make you a badge.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Thank you. I'm thoroughly embarrassed. Um, where, you know, it's but you do have to start saying, hey, like we're going to start having conversations when we finish something. When when I'm actually against, I'm willing to be taught differently. I'm actually against scheduled meetings for feedback. Like if you know every Friday at 1 p.m., that's that's that's when we're going to digest everything. Friday, you start, you don't get the Sunday scaries. You you get the Friday 12th, you know, you you start wondering, okay, what's going to be said in that meeting, right? I believe, and this goes against my love for processes, but I do believe the best framework for construction is organic. Does that does that mean you don't do a discovery and debrief after large projects or large like change management? No, you absolutely do. But in a day-to-day, there has to be that moment where you can step in and go, hey, like, you know, we we just worked on this, or I just saw that this got sent out, or I know you're on this step of this, and I noticed dot, dot, dot. Sometimes it can be, hey, I noticed that you actually tweaked this a little bit. And I actually really like the phrasing a lot better on that. Or, or I like that I think that we can reach a lot more uh by doing it this way. So thank you. Flip side of that is hey, like I noticed that, I noticed we made a couple more changes. I love the idea that we're working through innovation, but did we fully think through the end user, right? Like who's who's going to be receiving like this communication that you're sending out? Or, you know, who's who's your core audience for this event that we're wanting to do, you know, or when you're sending out communication to this future team member or candidate, you know, are you like, what's the end result that you're looking for? You you don't wait. So, like in communication, there's something called gunny sacking, right? And and I heard that expression years ago in college in a communication course. And and I said, Joshua, you're going to carry that with you for the rest of your life. And it was that term. And every once in a while, you'll hear something in your life and it sticks with you. And for me, it was gunny sack. And it's essentially the idea that you'll go through life or you'll go through moments and you just keep storing this thing in a sack, right? You just keep, you keep, and for a leader, what it is is it's feedback moments, right? You'll see the team member do something and you'll talk about that later. You'll see a team member do something, I'll talk about that later. Like, and you keep building those moments up, and then you come to them and you're like, well, I got to empty this sack now. And you're just dumping all of this feedback on them, right? And it's because you didn't choose in the moments that it was happening to give that feedback. What I'm not saying is 100% of the time you're gonna see a situation and go, feedback now. Like you're not gonna attack, you know, you're not gonna jump at it. You're gonna read the room and go, this is a moment where the vulnerability is not a space to receive. We're going to digest. We're going to, we're going to let this moment pass, and then we're going to come at it very quickly, right? But we are, we're going to talk about it. You know, there is such a thing as like once a problem has happened, right? After a couple of days or even weeks, it is useless now to follow up on that. Because they probably don't even remember a lot of the things that they did to create certain outcomes. And you probably don't even remember correctly a lot of the things that you saw that you thought needed change. Too much time has passed now. So it's not going to be effective. It's most effective when it happens recently, you know. So the feedback has to be organic and it doesn't always have to be scheduled. So I love the framework of an organic and timely feedback, right? Think happened, now you address it, you move on, right? Again, thing could be positive, thing could be an opportunity, but you still address it. And you also have to have a framework where you address the wins and not just the losses, right? The successes and not just the opportunities. If your if your communication loop is only to address the negative, then you are going to create a space where the feedback is not welcome, right? And it's not, and when I say unwelcome, it doesn't mean that every time, Emily, you come into the office, I'm like, whoa, not a feedback moment. What it means is that I'll not be able to take it and use it as to grow the way that you want me to, right? So there has to be, because if all you see is my failures and you don't see any of the successes, then I'm gonna feel like I don't even belong. And now I'm starting to check out, right? And and I will tell you what I have failed historically is the people who check out but remain physically present are your highest performers. Like they're the ones that will take it and go, I'm not here anymore. Like I will continue to do the process, I'll continue to be quote unquote successful, because they are, right? But like you haven't acknowledged anything that I've done other than the negative. So I I'm somewhere else right now. So tell me what you got. Yes, thank you, crawit, done. Like there's just this glassy look now behind the eyes, right? That's dangerous. That's quiet quitting in every for most of the concept, right? You know, quitting just doesn't mean you leave the job. Sometimes quitting means you lose you leave the desire to make it better than you found it. Yeah. Like, and that's stagnation and stagnant water becomes poisonous. Like you don't want that in your organization. So, like I said, I do believe they the best framework is is in that framework of of consistent, right? Or, or, you know, it's it's frequent and timely, right? And you know, we can talk about key phrases on how feedback sounds. I think the best way to do it, in my opinion, right? I don't have a psychology degree, but like in my best opinion, it's just like, hey, let's have a conversation around this. Hey, like we just wrapped this up. I'd love to chat about it. Like, hey, like we have, like, I noticed that we did this. Can we just circle around on it? You know, there's there doesn't need to, you don't have to have loaded words, right? You don't have to have some kind of subterfuge or hidden meaning. It literally is a conversation. And your framework for feedback must have you receiving feedback built into it. As a leader, if you're giving feedback, if your structure does not allow for feedback to be returned to you, it's not going to work, right? It's not going to become safe. Again, you're going to have the people that check out, you're going to get people pleasers, you're going to get the people who load themselves up with armor, right? Like you're going to have these scenarios where all of these personality types that are not constructive to the business are going to start appearing because you never allowed in your framework a space for you to receive the feedback. And no one gets to give it unless you're willing to get it.
SPEAKER_02Two-way streak.
SPEAKER_01Now that was my monologue. You go now. The soapbox is yours.
SPEAKER_02I think what was my first question?
SPEAKER_01How to give Yeah, it was it was some some of the phrasings and wordings to give feedback, and then the frameworks in which you can give that feedback, you know, constructively. I just said, you know, a whole lot.
SPEAKER_02I mentioned at the beginning, but I think when it comes to giving feedback, that's not something you just want to fly into and have an emotional reaction and then just let the words flow from you. Because it builds on itself, it leaves a lasting impression, and we want it to have a positive outcome. So when it comes to giving feedback, I like to be prepared. But I agree with you, both in what I've studied and also in what I've experienced, that feedback should be timely. So there's a window of time where if we wait longer and longer and longer, we're gonna forget the details, we're gonna move on, we're gonna have other things we're worried and focused on. So being able to anchor back to what happened relatively recently so that way it can be reflected on and then put into practice in the future is very important. And it should be specific. Feedback should not just be, you need to get better at that. It needs to be specific. I need your help in reaching this goal. And I've noticed that, you know, you're putting widget A two inches to the left. I need you to move them two inches to the right. That'll move things a lot specific. And then exactly what you said as well, which is both positive and negative. Because if I'm constantly coming to you with negative feedback, then I'm always going to expect negative feedback. However, there are opportunities. Sometimes people aren't even aware of what they excel in. And so you can champion them by giving them positive feedback. Hey, you really have some charisma when you present. You did a great job in the all hands meeting, conveying to everyone our priorities for this quarter. Thank you very much for doing that and communicating that clearly so that everyone knows how we're moving forward. That makes someone feel great, but it's also specific and clear, and it's timely if you just have the meeting, so they know, wow, okay, great. I did, I did well, fantastic. Also, when I think about feedback and giving feedback, it is the words you choose, it is the delivery, it is the tone. However, there's also a physical component to it, especially if you're in person. So there are opportunities to come around your desk, sit next to someone, draw things up and look at them together. Because it should not be a framing of I'm coming at you with feedback. It's I'm meeting you with feedback so we can move forward together. And that physical component is often overlooked, where it's I'm gonna stay behind my desk, I'm gonna stand and talk, you know, and and look physically down at you while I give you feedback. If you roll up a chair, if you're in a conference room, you sit side by side, there's a very different feeling to that. Same thing can be accomplished if you just go for a walk around your campus.
SPEAKER_01There has to be moments where there are positives and there has to be moments where there are negatives, right? Where there is constructive in the sense of or negative in the sense that, hey, this wasn't a desired or this wasn't the peak outcome, right? Like this wasn't the outcome that I think could have brought us the best results. So let's let's talk around that. Let's let's see where we're at on that. And again, it's not that compliment sandwich. It's not here's a positive, so here's a negative, or here's a negative, so here's a positive. It's just them understanding that when you're talking to them, they they know and expect that there will be some level of growth, either acknowledging the growth that's already happened and a good job, or acknowledging there's still some opportunity there for growth. One of my favorite ways uh to give feedback is the more most system, right? Like, hey, this is what you do the most of, and I absolutely love it. Like, I really appreciate that like this is something that you're working on, and this is something that you do, that this is a process that you have. It feels like it is literally the most efficient way to do it right now. And I really appreciate what it brings to the table. And then there's the more that sometimes I'll use. And the way that I phrase that is like, Emily, I I would just really love to see more of this thing, right? And it's pointing out something that I've seen you do that I want to see more of. It looks at the behavior that I want to see repeated and letting that be magnified and not me putting the magnifying glass specifically on the negative behavior. Now, does that mean I only do more most? No, I have lots of things in my leadership toolbox when it comes to giving, to trying to have a constructive conversation, you know, or a building block conversation. I'm really workshopping a lot of words here.
SPEAKER_02We'll use them all.
SPEAKER_01But I have a lot of tools in the toolbox. So I don't just use more most, but I think a really strong leader who is really developing that emotional muscle, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's funny too, because you know, when when you're talking about how to frame some of the conversations, for me, I think a lot of it is in the framework for the conversation. Because if I go into it with the intention of, I'm nervous about saying this or I'm so upset with this person, that's gonna come across. For me, I try to create an environment where they understand that we're in it together. And a couple of those things, like maybe I am having, you know, more of a performance improvement plan sort of framing and discussion that has its own structure to it, but also just basic, you know, hey, I observe something. Are you open to me sharing some advice with you? Because it gives them the chance to tell me yes or no. Maybe they're not open to it at all, or maybe not now. Or maybe I'm headed to a meeting and I don't have the time. You know, same thing goes. You can switch out advice for feedback. You know, I have I've observed some things I'd like to share with you. Do you have a minute for me to share some feedback with you? Are you open to that? Yes or no? And one that I do love, especially when it comes to like performance discussions, because we we've had those a few times. But uh stealing this from if Brene's the high priestess, then Adam Grant is the high priest. But I'm stealing it from maybe borrowing, evangelizing it, from Adam Grant. But there's research that shows that if you tell someone, hey, I have, I know I have high expectations around this, and I'm sharing this feedback with you because I believe you can meet them. That is so different from you are not meeting these marks. If you don't get better, you're just on the line. Yeah, and you're still gonna put the severity in there, but it is telling them, like, I've come figuratively, I've come around the desk and I'm sitting beside you. I believe in your capability to do this, and I'm inviting you into this opportunity to help develop it with me.
SPEAKER_01It is removing the fact that it is consequence driven.
SPEAKER_02Right. However, my goal is not to try and get you out the door as fast as possible in this specific instance. My goal is to invest in you, develop you, help you grow, provide what's needed. And most people I've encountered take kindly to that. They appreciate knowing that you care about them and their development and their opportunities rather than I've given up on you, get out.
SPEAKER_01I think it's isn't it in the hierarchy of needs that says like there's there's a level of care, right? Like people want to be cared for, you know. I think that's so very true. And I don't think we ever as leaders, I don't think we as a as a a human race is allowed to do this, but definitely as leaders we're ever ever allowed to take the care aspect out of it.
SPEAKER_02Because at the end of the day, we are all people and we have feelings. And I know that that can be sort of a touchy subject for some people because I've heard from people, you know, it's so difficult to talk to these, you know, what what's the new Gen Alpha, Gen Z, like so they're so sensitive, they're so this. But also then I asked them, well, what did you say to them? And it said that, you know, they said something like, Your behavior's completely unacceptable because you didn't sharpen the pencils and blah, blah, blah. And you know, it's just something completely out of the blue, and hey, it's something that bothers them. Whenever there's an interpersonal exchange, care should be a major consideration.
SPEAKER_01Do you think it should be the first consideration, then it's outcome, or do you think it's outcome and then care?
SPEAKER_02I think that they're intertwined. I don't know that if you are doing it with a person-centered focus that you can have one without the other. Because if I'm focused on the outcome, care is imbued in that. And if I care, it influences the outcome.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Like that. Like I said, I I would have I come from a place where I feel like care leads to the outcome. And so it's harder for me to rationalize outcome leads to care. So, like, but I love the concept of it being intertwined, right? You literally you can't have one without the other. But I believe it in the sense of it. I'm not challenging it, I agree. But my but my thinking is sometimes it is, yeah, there the outcome does lead to care, but it leads to an uncare, you know, like the right.
SPEAKER_02And I'm thinking about care in the positive sense. If the outcome does not factor in the impact it's going to have on a human level, I think that there's an element of negligence to that leadership approach. Because I know the world we live in is profits over people, but you will have no profits without your people.
SPEAKER_01100%. And I think we've even talked about before green people create green metrics. Yeah. Like you, you have to keep the workforce. I'm not trying to sound cold or callous, but like there's such a thing. Like you have to keep your workforce wanting to be a force for work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, like they like they they need to be able to want to do that, you know, or at least have a desire to contribute at a level that satisfies their needs and continues to grow the business.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And it's, I feel like there are a couple of themes that have been coming up as we've spoken this morning about, you know, it's not just this myopic view of giving this micro moment of feedback. And it's not just, do I care about the outcome that I get from this specific instance? Because ultimately it impacts the whole system of the organization. Ultimately, it has a strategic impact. And ultimately, if you're, I love the way you put that, like if your workforce has no energy behind it, there is no force.
SPEAKER_01Right. And I, you're 100% right on the theming. If I was to look at this, this conversation today and think, man, if what is my through line? What is the one thing Joshua's pulling out of this? Right. It is that the conversation has to understand that it has an effect down the road, right? And it is because and I now it leads me back to that first question, right? And the question was, have I have I ever received feedback that necessarily didn't say anything cruel, but I feel like I had a lesson value? And the answer for me is that through line. When I feel like the feedback was not delivered because it cared about my growth and it cared and it was delivered in a way that makes me think you care about me tomorrow just as much as you care today or yesterday, then I'm going to walk away from it defeated. Like I said, feedback should not be feedback has a place for an immediate need, but it also has to meet a future need as well. Because you are going to burn the person out if it's only the feedback that is meant to change the moment.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much for spending this time with us together as we explored this topic. If you would like to connect with us, you can find our LinkedIn contact information in the podcast episode notes. We would love to hear from you. Let us know if there's something in particular that resonated with you from this episode, or if there are particular topics that you would like us to cover in the future. Finally, if you found this information valuable, please go ahead and give us a follow. And if you know anyone else who you think would benefit from this information, please share the link with them. Thank you again and take care.