You Are Not Alone - Work Edition
Join us as HR and Leadership professionals discuss the challenges of work and ways they have found to muddle through. We laugh, we cry, we get real.
You Are Not Alone - Work Edition
How To Anticipate & Beat Burnout
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In this episode, Joshua and Emily explore the complex topic of burnout—how to recognize its early signs, prevent it, and support mental health in the workplace. They share practical insights for leaders and individuals to navigate and mitigate burnout effectively.
Key topics
- Signs of burnout and early indicators
- The role of leadership in preventing burnout
- The importance of boundaries and clarity in roles
- The impact of organizational culture on employee well-being
- Strategies for supporting mental health and self-care
Takeaways
- Burnout is often an invisible symptom of deeper issues in work and personal life.
- Early indicators include resource depletion, loss of passion, and decreased performance.
- Effective leadership involves diagnosing root causes and involving teams in solutions.
- Setting boundaries and clarifying roles can prevent workload overload.
- Supporting mental health and recognizing individual needs are crucial for long-term organizational health.
Keywords
burnout, workplace mental health, leadership, self-care, employee well-being, organizational culture, stress management, work-life balance
Get In Touch
Thanks so much for spending this time with us. We’d love to hear what resonated, what challenged you, or what you’d like us to explore next.
You can connect with Joshua on LinkedIn here and with Emily here. You can also learn more about Emily's work at alocoaching.com.
Until next time, take care.
Hey, welcome to You Are Not Alone, The Work Edition, where myself, Joshua Morlock, and my friend and colleague Emily Walton walk you through some of the topics of the modern workplace and how we can walk alongside you in many of the things that you're going to see day to day, week to week. And in your those moments, you can feel like, am I alone in this? Am I the only one that feels this way? And you are not. And we're going to explore that today. And today's topic that we're going to explore is burnout and how to anticipate it. Because sometimes once the burnout hits, it may be too late. And we're going to talk through how we can see it coming and how to work through those moments. And maybe what happens if it was just a moment too late.
SPEAKER_01And I think that is such a great intro for this topic because burnout feels so much like it's something that's just happening to us internally in our heads that we do wonder am I the only one feeling this? Why do I feel this way? And you can start to feel like burnout is something that's going on with you. But a lot of the research and a lot of the definitions around it are actually it's about the shifting dynamic of your relationship with your work. And we can get into exploring what does that entail? You know, what's happening, what is burnout, what isn't burnout, and what we can do about it. So I'm really excited to talk about it today.
SPEAKER_00Burnout is one of those things where I, you know, we talked about invisible labor in one of our episodes before. And burnout is almost this invisible thing as well. Talking about how it can feel like I'm alone in that burnout. If the people around you are hiding it really well, you can definitely think you are the only one. It can definitely make you feel alone. And it's also one of those things where I'll be honest with you, I don't think I would ever feel comfortable. Like I really struggled in my career walking up to someone and going, I think I have burnout. Like I think I'm feeling burned out, especially going to like your leader or your boss or someone that you report to. It's, I know for me historically, burnout has almost felt like an admission of defeat. Like if I come to you, let's say, Emily, you're my you're my leader, and I go, Emily, I, you know, I just want to talk to you for a second. I feel like I think I'm starting to feel a little burned out. It almost sounds like you're saying, so my career is over. Like I'm going to have to find a new job, or like I have to find a new career, or like I have to do something else. Where I think for me, anytime that I've had a season of burnout, I've to use the expression, like you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, right? You don't have to throw away everything. You just have to go, hey, hold on. Like, what is causing this burnout? What are some of the non-work factors that might be causing this burnout that I'm I'm feeling as well? Because I will also say historically, some of the burnout that I've felt in the past comes less from the work and more of do I have a lot of factors outside of the four walls that is my workspace that is causing the weight of work to feel even more. Or when I get to work, I feel like that battery is already empty and I haven't even walked through the door yet.
SPEAKER_01I think you brought up some really interesting points there. The first that really stood out to me that you mentioned was burnout as a symptom, because sometimes it feels like almost like I have burnout, as if it's like a diagnosis for like a disease, if you will, metaphorically. And then it's like, you know, oh no, what do you do about burnout? And you're trying to address the symptoms oftentimes, but there is what you said, it's a symptom of a cause. Like there is a root cause. And exactly what you were talking about next was what is contributing to that. And sometimes it's work, sometimes it's personal life. There are all sorts of things that play into burnout. And I'd love to get into some of those because really at its core, burnout is the feeling of the stress and the demands being greater than the resources you have available to enable that. And that can mean too much work, you don't have enough time and you're you're limited on that resource. It could mean that you have too many demands in your personal life, you're a caregiver, you have sick kids at home, you're taking care of elderly members of your family, and then you feel like you don't have enough resources to handle that. And so yeah, I just really want to like dive deep into what you know, what can cause this? What causes us to show up? How do we and how do we start becoming more aware to anticipate it?
SPEAKER_00I have found historically for me, when I when I see the that symptom of burnout happening, right? Let's, you know, we're let's let's unravel this idea of using it almost like a diagnosis, right? Before I get sick, I always have a few things that I notice, right? If I'm about to, if I if I feel a cold coming on, if I feel like something like that coming on, I've got a few, let's call them triggers, right? Like I wake up two days before and like the throat's a little scratchy, right? Or man, I can't take a full breath, or like I've I've got some got some congestion. Usually you see some things before the actual, you know, illness settles in. For me with burnout, one of the early symptoms or one of the early indicators you kind of hit on this is am I starting to notice that I'm running out of resources? Am I starting to notice that my timelines are getting shorter, but my abilities and my resources, maybe not even abilities, but my resources and my tools are becoming just as limited as the timelines are, right? And I'm having to put just like 10% more of time, 10% more of, you know, extra into something. And once you start doing that, what's refilling that? Right. So you're starting to notice, okay, I am putting a little bit more into things. And because I'm putting a little bit more into things, I have less time for the things that fill the cup, that that recharge the batteries, right? The second indicator for me on burnout is am I able to get back into finding enjoyment and the things I love about my work? Like if I'm doing something that I am passionate about, like for me, it's learning and development, right? I love when I'm able to work alongside the colleges and build curriculums. I'm able to love when I can get some learning platforms and have instructors come to the team and help teach the team. Man, that is one of those cup-filling things. When I start to notice that the things that I am most passionate about in my job aren't really sparking that excitement anymore, that's another sign that burnout is coming, that I am, I am about to fall off a cliff if I am not careful. Like I said, I I when I when I'm meeting with one of the instructors and I'm just like, man, I kind of like, I'm I'm not really looking forward to this meeting today. When before, it's like I've got my notebook, I've got my my laptop, I'm excited to dig in with this person. You know, you're you're thinking about it from the, I just need to get through this and not, man, I get to do this, you know, the have versus get, right? Like, oh man, I have to have this meeting and not, well, hey, I get to have this meeting and get to do something that I really care about. For me, that's another big symptom and another big ongoing, like, hey, I'm about to, I'm about to run into something if I'm not careful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I'm curious too on the flip side of that. So you you just described what it's like as someone experiencing burnout. From your experience and from your vantage point in HR, how do you recognize it in others? So that way, if you're a leader or someone else is a member of an organization, you start to realize wait, even before someone's fully burnt out, we're on that road.
SPEAKER_00When I start seeing you perform or have less energy around things that I know you excel at, when I start seeing things that were slam dunks for you before, right? Like, and now I'm starting to notice when you go to dunk, you can you're having a hard time getting to the rim. Like, that's when I go, okay, hold on. Like, this isn't normal, right? Because you've done this enough where you getting it, like you getting it right as the standard, right? And I'm now noticing to see some gaps where gaps have never been before, right? So how do I like what's going on? And just having that conversation, just having that check-in and being like, hey, you know, I I noticed that in this last project that some of the things that you, you know, had done in the past really, really well, you know, we were we saw some gaps with, or you even came to me with some struggles that were abnormal. And now that the project is over, I'd like to kind of have a conversation and just see how you're doing. You know, is there anything that we can help you with internally, you know, inside these four walls to help you? The way that I've always described it to my teams is it's not, I want you to do less, I want you to do more of the right thing. The goal is not for you to do less work, the goal is for you to do more of the right work and you're gonna notice how much more you're going to enjoy it. And a lot of times, one of the ways that the leaders can help in these four walls when they notice performance slipping and they notice that there is less enthusiasm about the things that they're most passionate about and the things that they're most impactful to their role is less diagnose what's actually going on in your day-to-day and your week to week. Because I think we've got some baggage. I think we've got some things that have been added to the plate that was never intended for that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned at the beginning about feeling like when you're experiencing burnout and you approach a leader, how it feels like an admission of defeat. And what you just said there, I think is such a beautiful and responsible way to show up as a leader. Should someone come to you or should you observe that someone is burning out and you initiate the discussion where you really are trying to address what is the root cause here? What can be done about it? What are the job demands at play here? And then also, you know, where can we exercise some control? Where can we help get I additional resources so that we can help improve this? We can help turning because burnout is not like I've arrived at this destination, I'm here forever. And also you can be on the road to being burnt out and still take a turn and address it and improve things. And you also mentioned it's not just doing less, it's doing more of the right thing because you could be working a job. You it could be 50 hours a week, pretty demanding, but if it's clear, you're aligned, you're motivated, it's fulfilling, then that may not burn you out. Whereas something where it might be 30 hours a week, but you have no idea what's going on, it's overwhelming you, too much is being asked, then you're going to face burnout. And it's not so much more or less, it's exactly what you said of it's doing more of the right thing.
SPEAKER_00I think that is, and that's key for any role. I think that's one of the biggest things that a leader can do to get ahead of burnout in a long-term game. If the leader wants to play a long-term game and not whack-a-mole with, you know, employee responsibility. And that is really defining job roles within their department and making sure that best of the ability, business needs are ribe, and I understand that. But but when you start making exceptions, the rule, they're no longer exceptions anymore, right? The the rule of thought now is we to your point, even if it's just 30 hours, but there's no clarity, you never know what you're going to expect when you walk in that day. It's difficult. One of the biggest things for me that causes a lot of like emotional like dissonance is when I don't know what to expect. Like I don't even have to necessarily be in control of the situation. I just have to be aware of what the situation is and even knew that it was coming. Like the ability to prepare and understand it helps out a lot. You again, the word you use, clarity. It makes so much, it makes a role so much easier when you can walk in and you know what's going on. I I had a team member that they're out again, outside the four walls was being very difficult. You know, they were they were struggling with a lot that had nothing to do with work, but it was causing a lot of frustration with inside work, right? Because it was the tasks now seemed bigger than what they are because everything around them felt bigger than them, right? And it was just making sure to realign that's and add that stability to where even there was a conversation that we had later where they were like, work was probably the safest place for me at that time because it was the most stable part of my day, right? While everything else around me was shifting sand. I was able to walk in that morning. I knew I had my checklist, I knew exactly what to do, I knew what the expectation of success looked like. And at the and at 5:01 PM, I could walk out of the doors. And I was like, this is what it felt like to be successful, right? And that was that was massive. And that helped that work burnout. That helped, you know, that helped some of the enthusiasm around work because again, they knew that this is a safe box for me right now, you know, and because they had a stable place that they could go to, it allowed them to then manage the things that were going on outside a little bit easier. But if your entire life is chaos, it's going to be difficult, right?
SPEAKER_01That's interesting. I've experienced both of those, where it's things going on outside of work that are weighing on me, but also environments where, and I think this is very common, especially in fast-paced industries. So I used to work in the tech space, very fast-paced, things are changing. Now you have AI that's like completely revolutionizing the space and what can be done. And there's just this need to go, go, go, drive, drive, drive, move fast, break things, but it's changing from day to day. You're bouncing from project to project. Everybody's got to be lean. We're not going to add headcount, but man, we're more profitable than we've ever been. But, you know, and it's just this tug of war of like, we've got to do so much with so little. And over time, that wears you down because you can only split your attention and your energy in so many ways before you feel that you don't have the resources, you don't have the bandwidth, you don't have any control or influence either, which I think is a big one too, where the control aspect, as a member of an organization, we do exhibit some level of control at every level that we work in. We may not be charting the course, we may not be setting the, you know, annual plan, five-year plan, etc. However, when you get to weigh in on what's the timeline, what's the scope of this project, what are our, like you mentioned earlier, what are our responsibilities here? Those factor in. And it's a simple way for leaders to engage their teams and get buy-in, which helps combat burnout.
SPEAKER_00The the tension that you were talking about, I think, is massive. I have been in situations before where you hear just that, man, we have never been more profitable. I have fewer tools than I've ever had in my life. Like, and it it creates almost this war inside of you where you start to feel, I don't want to use the word disposal, but you do start to feel this idea that if we are doing so well, why does it feel like, and you almost get into the singular focus? Why am I the one suffering? Like, why, why are we the ones seeing the negative effects of success?
SPEAKER_01I hear that as like if I had to name that fairness, effectively, this is not fair.
SPEAKER_00100%. It's not fair. And I think that word in and of itself is another symptom of the overall thing that causes burnout, fairness. If I don't feel like I'm being treated fair, I am I'm going to struggle even more. Why is why does this person get to work or have more remote days? Or why is it that this company can do so well, but my increase was lower than it's ever been, but I got a promotion? Why is it that, you know, this person seems to have this, this, and that? Or why why is it that anytime I have an idea or an opinion, I'm overlooked or talked over when it feels like this person is not? Dot, dot, dot. And you start getting into this mentality where, and again, it's when it when things feel unfair and you feel like the the it's mounted against you, burnout is absolutely inevitable because it feels like you're you're spinning your wheels in mud.
SPEAKER_01And to that point, this I think is huge for leaders and organizations, what you're hitting on. Because when people experience and believe in equity and it's not fair, then they are driven to try and reset the balance. That is either they're going to pursue some way to make it right, whether that is I'm going to address it directly with someone to ask for more resources, or fine, if you've told me we're not going to do this, then I'm going to lower my standard to what feels more fair. And what is so important about that is this results in what's called counterproductive workforce or workplace behaviors, where that's when people start quiet quitting. That's when people start working less. That's when people start scrolling on social media. That's when people start stealing from the organization. And this is so, so important because you can get in front of that by having conversations with people, by designing the work with people. Yes, we can't just say, well, we're not going to do this $50 million sales project and just let it not happen. However, you can involve them in the process. You can get their buy-in, you can incorporate other resources so that you can hit that $50 million sales project and simultaneously keep your team green. Like you said, green people, green messages. That's like your when I think of you and your phrases, that one comes to mind.
SPEAKER_00That's that's I'm pretty sure I need to get my license plate that says that. I just gotta somehow fit it within eight characters.
SPEAKER_01Just the acronym.
SPEAKER_00No, that's 100%. You if you don't have the buy-in, if people don't believe in what you're doing, the opposite of not believing in what you're doing is is literally like you either believe in it or you don't believe in it. And if you don't believe in what you're doing, you are not going to do well at it. It is very rare to find someone that goes, I am actually opposed to this. Let me put in 100%. Like that is that is not going to be your atypical scenario, right? And you know, the word you said the phrase that's kind of been circling through what could be this entire conversation, and that's quiet. Burn the I would say the thing that burnout will always cause the most is that quiet quitting, where everyone, like that person just seems to shut down and suddenly you're there's nothing wrong with meets expectations. In fact, organizations thrive when everyone meets expectations. We love meeting expectations. However, when your top performers, the ones that not only take the process and make it better, but then take that process and make it better not just for themselves, but the people around them, and they start having, I'm gonna use the word global impact, but like a corporate organizational-wide impact. When those individuals start to now just meet expectations, right? And it's just, I'm just gonna go in, I'm just gonna do my job, I'm gonna walk out. I'm not here to make anything better, I'm not here to improve any processes, like I'm not here to do anything other than exactly what doesn't get anyone to. I just, I just gotta get through today. The I have to get through today mindset is important because there are days that I just have to get through. I think we've all had days where it's just like I just gotta get through today. If I get through today, we're gonna be okay. If your culture is just get through today, we're in trouble. That is not how an organization thrives. I will tell you, I don't think it's how an organization survives. There has to be this level of commitment and buy-in coming back to that. And when you have this wave of quiet quitting, it will affect the ecosystem at such a high level. And quiet quitting is contagious. Like it when you see someone that was very high performing really take the take their foot off the gas, if you will, and you start seeing what happens when that happens, and other people start viewing that, fewer people are going to go, I think something's wrong. I'm gonna step up, and they're gonna go, I think we Should all slow down a little. You know, I think we should all like, hold on, let's now we start circling the wagons a little bit. Like, there is a downstream effect to people giving up on the vision of the organization and giving up on getting out of that one day at a time mentality. Absolutely. If you're doing one day at a time, that means you have no vision. The whole, the whole literal definition of vision is being able to see it ahead. If you're one day at a time, you can't do that. Once you're in that one day at a time mindset, how do you then start to see two days at a time, three days at a time, a week ahead, a month ahead? How do you regain vision casting when you're trying to survive?
SPEAKER_01As an organization?
SPEAKER_00As an organization, one. And then as we answer that, let's get it back to that personal level of what now do we do when we find ourselves now in that one day at a time mindset?
SPEAKER_01But on the personal front, too, there are a couple of different components that come into it. So we're going to have to explore workload. Is our workload too much? Can we possibly get everything done in the time that we have with the resources that we have? Or are those going to be out of balance and continue to contribute to the situation? Another is control. Where can we exercise control? What do I have control over? Do I have control over how I show up? Do I have control over a budget that I can utilize to help me? Do I have control over my mindset and approach for the situation and what I'm going to do or my boundaries or my job search if that's what you need to do? Another I would say is the community aspect. We started this discussion about how it can feel so individual, so personalized. The number of times, and I think one of the things I can say as a coach without breaching confidentiality with any of my clients is that everybody feels this way at some point or another. Everybody has doubts. Everybody thinks they could have done better. Everybody worries that they are the only one. And when you're the only one, you're going to have doubt increase. You're going to have shame increase. You're going to have all of these negative feelings increase. So I would say community is a huge portion of digging yourself out. Find your community of support, whatever that may be. Friends, family, colleagues, therapist, a coach, whatever's going to work for you so that you're not navigating all of this alone. Because also with that community, you can start questioning your perspective. You can start getting additional ideas. You can start exploring different paths that can serve you better than the cycle that you're in. And then we've talked a lot about this too, but we were talking earlier about fairness. Is this fair? What would it take for it to become fair? And with that, is this aligning with your values? Are you, and I'm not trying to like guilt or shame anyone into you're quiet quitting, does that align with your, you know, I work hard sort of value? No, but does the organization you're in and the way that they're operating align with your values? As a high achieving, driven individual myself, I often take it upon myself to fix, air quotes, fix a much larger situation than I have the influence to do. So you need to reckon with yourself. What steps can I do to sort of stabilize myself for where I am and start making positive steps now? And am I going to be able to take enough steps to dig myself out of this cycle here, or do I need to explore that elsewhere? And that might be organization, role, something like that.
SPEAKER_00So listening to that, I am I'm thinking back to a previous conversation where we had about right. And one of the key ways to prevent some of that burnout is setting up some strong boundaries. We talked before, we we we had a whole episode on it. There's some difficulties with setting up boundaries. That's a very real thing. I think back to that team member who had all of that additional workload put on them over time. It wasn't what happened was not someone came into her office or their office one day with page two job description, right? And was like, we're just gonna staple these together, you know. Over time, more and more things were added. Maybe this month it was this, maybe two months later it was this. Maybe we're not entirely sure where this fits into our department, but let's go ahead and set it here. And then when we find somewhere, when we find a role more suited for it, we'll take it back. What happens is the role that's more suited for it never takes it back, right? Or the role that's more suited for it either never existed, or maybe the task should have never existed for that role, or even that department. What I am saying though is the importance of setting those boundaries. Had a person in that position set more boundaries and said, hey, you know what? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm not trying to be insubordinate. What I am trying to be is very focused on doing an incredible job in the role you've assigned me to do. And I stop being my most effective version of myself when I keep taking on more and more of this. So let's sit back down and let's realign on what the expectation of my role is and what you view as most effective for me. Because right now it's not this, right? And if this continues down the path, I can I am going to continue to struggle, right? You don't set ultimatums, but you do make it very clear hey, this if this doesn't change, I will continue to struggle. I am not going to wake up one morning and go, actually, I am a 40% better employee. I could probably even take on even more tasks now. I just magically woke up and was able to do all of this. That's not going to happen. I am going to continue to struggle if this keeps happening. And that's why those boundaries are so important. Is one of the key ways to, you know, we talk about anticipating burnout. Anticipating burnout implies that we know it's going to come. Like I am, I am anticipating a storm, so I'm going to roll my windows up. Right. I am going, so I am anticipating burnout. I know it's going to come. This is actually a practice that will prevent burnout at a certain level. And if burnout is inevitably coming, it will delay it a lot longer.
SPEAKER_01It's very proactive. Yes. Yeah. Because, and to your point, I've sort of grappled with whether we should rename the episode from anticipating, because I think for many of us, work is so busy, life is so busy that we don't fully anticipate burnout. We, it's one of those hindsight's 2020 situations where we realize, oh, I'm in this situation, I'm in this cycle. And then it's when you feel like mowed over when you realize, whoa, hold on, stop. I think I'm experiencing burnout. It's so challenging to anticipate, okay, this is happening. That could contribute to burnout. All right, well, moving along, this happens, that could contribute to burnout, instead of like what you're saying, I think is a very high autonomy, very high personal agency approach to managing your workload to the best that you can as an individual. And then, like we've talked about as well, what can the leadership do? What can the organization do so that collectively, because to your point too, you know, we could put boundaries in place. And if the organization or some higher leader is saying, well, just keep dumping it on Joshua, he's he's got it. And you keep saying I can't, but they're like, Oh, too bad. We run into that too in our past podcast of like there has to be alignment and understanding that in order to do my best work, I can't do all of the work. Just give me everything that comes down the pipeline. That's not gonna, that's not going to lead to the best outcome possible.
SPEAKER_00And I think sometimes we feel, and not to broach back on an old topic, but again, you you feel like because you are a high contributor, to be to stay as a high contributor, you have to do more things, right? I had a conversation with a, we'll call it a a very semi-small mentorship moment. I can't call it coaching. I don't have credentials. Uh, but I had a mentor moment uh with a friend and talking about this. And I I'm I borrowed this expression from a whole nother genre of a whole nother hobby. But I told him, I was like, sometimes the problem we get into is we think being a high contributor means we build wide when we should really be building tall. Like we're trying to do way too many things, and we think the the more things we do, it it involves the highest level of contribution. Where if you're doing 10 things at 40, maybe that's not a high level of contribution. It looks good, right? When you can talk somebody through your day, I touched this, I worked on this, did this, did this, did this. You're not really talking through about how effective you were, right? Because even you're probably thinking you're doing it 80 or 90 percent, but you're so thin you don't even realize the gaps. Whereas if you build tall, right? And you're making sure that you're focused in and you're honed in and you're saying, okay, I can contribute at a high level because this is the thing that I'm asked to do, and I can pour a lot of the time and a lot of attention into it, right? Be work tall, not wide. When you're wide, you spread yourself very thin. And when you don't think that there's enough of you to go around, burnout will happen.
SPEAKER_01I see this with both high achievers and new leaders. And when I say new leaders, newly promoted leaders, or even maybe you were a team lead and now you're a you know regional manager or a manager to a director. In those transitions, this happens because there's this desire to continue to prove your value. And so you take on more and more and more. Doing a little bit of a lot is not as impactful as really having a huge impact in a specific scope that only you can truly have that impact in.
SPEAKER_00100%. And there is a feeling, another thing that can bless you. Thank you. Sneezing is a sign of burnout. Another thing that can I think really impact is when I feel more burnt, when I when again, when I feel the encroachment of burnout, there's there's another symptom that comes with that, and that is a lack of recognition. Yes. When you don't feel like you are being recognized for your contributions and you feel like you're putting all of this in, and everyone will tell you, I don't do it for the applause, you know, I don't, I don't do it for the attaboy, you know, like just a handshake and eye contact is all I need. And that that and at the beginning, you probably don't need a lot of platitude, right? At the beginning of the work, you probably are just like, you know, I just feel good being a contributor. Just it feels good having a purpose, you know? And the more that you work and the less that it's recognized and appreciated, you start going from, well, I just needed a handshake and eye contact to, well, you know what? I think you would have been nice for this, to I don't understand why no one seems to see the work that I'm doing. Right. And that starts to multiply. And once you start feeling unrecognized and you're just throwing a lot into something and no one even seems to notice, you get back into that place of why even.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And there's what you were touching on there around like the reward portion of it. How are you rewarded, compensated, appreciated? And how is that tailored to the individual? Because for me, for example, I've worked in many organizations where they say, Oh, you know, you could choose from these six different things as a thank you because you I don't want any of those things. So that doesn't, that doesn't, that feels like great, you spent money on stuff that to me has no value and that doesn't align with me. But you also were talking about there are a couple of different components or like faces to burnout. And with that, you have we have the emotional exhaustion, and using your example of why does it even matter? You know, like nope, the thank you would have been nice, and you just start to get worn down there. Then you get the cynicism and the depersonalization where you start to detach from the work. Fine, if nobody's gonna thank me, why am I putting in a hundred percent? Whatever. And then again, that reduced sense of accomplishment. What does this even what does this even matter? Does my work even matter? And that's like the stair steps down into this burnout space that if we if we recognize that, if we engage with that, we can avoid taking those stairs down.
SPEAKER_00We there is something to be said about understanding, because as I was listening to you and thinking about, you didn't even say that, like you give me six things, none of those even matter, right? I believe sometimes what a leader can do, they can fall into the trap of throwing spaghetti at a wall. Or even like you you throw in a blindfold, you grab some darts, and you're like, whatever this hits is the way that we're going to recognize our team members and solve our problems. One of the biggest hurdles I think leaders face who don't have, maybe even still do have a lot of experience. I'm not even gonna, I'm not even gonna put them in a basket right now. But many leaders face is they feel so overwhelmed and so wide you mentioned it, new leaders, so wide, that adding knowing who your team actually is is like one more responsibility, right? Like it's it's with like you're supposed like when I wrote the job description, I should have like put in maintain a high level of relationship with team members so you can identify and best support them as a leader. But I shouldn't have to because that's actually one of like the core-driven things of a leader that you have to do no matter what, right? You don't put the intangibles on the record, like that's just something you need to be doing automatically.
SPEAKER_01It's inferred, but not always understood.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Inferred, not understood. I love it. But it's had had the leaders, if leaders would take the time to sit and have good conversations with their team members. It doesn't have to be scheduled, though I do love scheduled check-ins, it doesn't have to be scheduled. Sometimes that, hey, you know what? Will you come come chat with me for a little bit? I just want to just want to have a conversation. Like I know last week you had mentioned that you were walking into a busy weekend, and I wanted to ask you how it went. Like, is there anything you mind telling me about? Like, how did your weekend go? You know, like how learn to care about them. And I don't mean, because I do believe that a leader will naturally care about their team members. I don't think, unless they hit it really well, I have ever met a leader as underperforming or maybe as difficult as they were, that did not actually care about the human part. They they wanted to see each person that worked for them to do well and have a good life. They did not know how to articulate that. You've worked with different people.
SPEAKER_01So we're not gonna get into the dark personality triad.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're uh we but I'd like to believe. Maybe I'm using my believe in person believe in people value a little hard right now, but I don't think I have. I think everyone naturally cares. What I do think, though, is that care is a muscle that people don't know how to use. Like there is a level of showing care to their team that they don't do often enough to work that muscle and strengthen it to go, okay, this is what it should look like in this moment. This is what caring looks like here.
SPEAKER_01To your point, in my experience as a leader, one of the most valuable practices I have ever done, and not even as if it was a an intentional, you know, let me carve out five minutes every day to do this sort of practice, was just remembering that we're moving at the speed of light. The work that we're doing in industries today is faster than it's ever been and it's not going to slow down. But at the end of the day, my people are people and they still have basic human needs. And checking in with them on a personal level has meant the world to some of the people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Years later, I didn't even know I was doing it, but years later, I've had people say, you know, one time you just stopped at my desk and you could see I was frustrated with a project. You asked how I was, and I don't think I ever told you how much that meant to me. And I would have never known. But you just recognize, you observe what's going on with people, you keep a pulse on what's going on with people, you learn about what people need and how you show up. And I I've often talked about this when I work in leadership training, where it's you have to think about it in the sense of children. So I'm one of several different kids. None of my siblings and I are exactly alike. In fact, we're not even close to alike. And that's what a team is like. When you're a leader, it's as if you're a parent, metaphorically, and you have different kids with different needs, different motivations, different challenges, different ideas. You have to get to know each person individually and show up with them in the ways that they need to support them in the best possible way. And that also just dovetails right into when we're talking about burnout. When you know your people proactively and consistently, you can spot when things are off. And you can check in even a five-minute, hey, I just noticed your body language was a little different, or usually you're more talkative, you're a little more reserved. How is everything okay? I just want to check in, can mean the world of difference between that inflection point between nobody cares about me, the emotional disconnect, cynicism steps we talked about earlier, to I've still got support here. I can get I can I can handle this. That can be such a big defining factor in whether or not people start down the path of burnout.
SPEAKER_00That is it's powerful and so true. Something that that struck me was there is no such thing as a leader of personality types. No one will put on their resume. I find that I lead best when I deal with this personality type. So I'm a I am a leader of this specific group of people. If you can find a team that somehow is exactly those personalities and you can be their leader, hey, more power to you. You're gonna have a good on you.
SPEAKER_01However, your team will struggle because you perform better with diverse interpersonalities.
SPEAKER_00There's a lot to unpack there, but but like you there, you can't just pick the personality that you deal with best as a leader. You have to navigate all the personalities. There are naturally some personalities I struggle with more than others as a leader. Like I'm there are just some where I'm just like, I I I'm having a hard time communicating with you. Like that is a real thing, you know. But I do not get to say, and because of that, I'm not communicating with you anymore. All I'm gonna be doing is giving you tasks. And if you have any issues, reach out online to someone. Like it's I don't get to do that. I still have to learn how to connect with them and navigate that and not change who I am, but change how I interact from person to person. Not every interaction has to be the same because not every person is the same. The goal of every action interaction does need to be the same.
SPEAKER_01Expectations and outcomes need to be the same, but the way you get there can be slightly different for each person.
SPEAKER_00A hundred percent. The goal does not always get to determine the means. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything else, Emily, that you feel like we haven't touched on, or that there's something else that we we want to explore around the topic?
SPEAKER_01One thing I want to touch on briefly, and I do want to touch on this with a caveat. Like, I am not a neither of us are mental health providers.
SPEAKER_00I love a good asterisk.
SPEAKER_01Big asterisk. And at the same time, I think we can't talk about burnout and not talk about the mental health effects that it can have. And how when we internalize burnout, we can start to think something's wrong with us. But I want to go back to what I said at the beginning, where burnout is in fact the response to changes in your environment. It is the change in the dynamic of the relationship you have with work or with some other situation you're burning out from. So I just wanted to call that out. And of course, I encourage if you are experiencing any challenges and it would be beneficial to speak with someone who is a mental health professional, I am all in favor of that. I also want to encourage that because you're burning out, if you are experiencing it, it doesn't necessarily mean something's wrong with you. It can mean that your spidey senses are going off and you are more attuned to changes in the environment and that being aware of those changes is the first step to start exploring. What do I need to do to improve this situation?
SPEAKER_00The biggest thing that I would say for someone is trust your gut. If it doesn't feel right, figure out why it doesn't feel right. The last thing that you can ignore, you use the term spotty senses, the last thing that you can do is ignore those spotty senses, right? You can't be like Something isn't right here, app should probably ignore it. Right. Like you don't smell smoke and then go abnormal, but I can move past it. Like you, you have to act on the indicators that something is wrong or something is amiss, or maybe something is different than what it has looked like in the past and be able to address it and and to call it out.
SPEAKER_01And I would add to that that you do deserve to work in a space and work through these challenges and navigate these things in a way that serves you. A lot of times when we're high achievers and we feel like we've fallen, we feel like there's something wrong with us, we don't, we no longer deserve to feel good. You spend so much of your time, your adult life at work that it should not be drudgery.
SPEAKER_00No. If if it feels that way, like I said, you I the it's it's come up more and more now when we when I talk to employee people, team members, what kinds of organizations is you hear in the expression, I spend so much time with these people. I'm here so much. You just said it. And it can't be drudgery, is probably one of the best words I've ever heard for for that environment, right? Because it feels heavy, feels like it almost feels like your second basses. Like there's just something about it that feels the weight is so much, right? And you cannot be caught in that cycle. I have had to really catch myself as I've grown older because I struggle with depression. And I have to be acutely aware of that because sometimes the weight that I'm feeling might actually be entirely disconnected from my work. And my brain is sending signals that are maybe not a hundred percent accurate. And I have to address those before I address the work aspect of it. Always heal yourself before you heal the word, right? It's it's one of those things where if once I become oriented and once I become in a better place, suddenly the things around me start to look and feel a little bit different as well. Like, of course, certain tasks feel a lot heavier. I didn't want to get out of bed this morning because I did not want to face the world no matter what it was. Like we could have been doing like a unicorn parade where all happiness like lived forever. And I'm still gonna wake up and be like, I don't want to be here. Like, I don't want, I don't want to do this. That's the reality of it. So you might find yourself in a place where you're battling some more biological things, and we have to learn how to take care of those first. And I will always, you said it best, if you need some outside resources, reach out to them. I am going to be, I am always a huge proponent of therapy. I push therapy like anytime and any time in a leader capacity I've ever been in. And I had a team member that came to me and said, I need a certain day off or a certain piece of time off because of this, and they felt comfortable enough telling me why. Always, always taking care of yourself is one of the most important things you can do. And I urge as leaders to follow that that if you can give the space for someone to take care of themselves, provide that space, right? Even if it's as much as like, hey, you know what? Close the door to your office, lock the door, and that is your time. Like if you if you need to do like telehealth or something like that, do it. As a leader, I encourage you to give that space to your team members and give that space to yourself.
SPEAKER_01I love that you said heal yourself first. It often feels like we have to give so much of ourselves and the demands are so high, which leads to burnout, that our self-care and our well-being takes a backseat. And what I have observed in working with so many people at different phases in their careers is that you will change organizations, you will change roles. Those things will not come with you. You will be with you every step of your life. So invest in being the kind of person and in the kind of health that you want to carry with you. And on the flip side of that, you were mentioning about as a leader, if someone needs that level of support, supporting them. And I would reinforce that an investment in the well-being of your people is an investment in the well-being of your organization. Because if your people are not at their best, they cannot do their best work. And that is incredibly important.
SPEAKER_00And that's one of those life-changing and maybe even sometimes life-saving measures a leader can do. You never you will never always truly know what someone is going through. And someone can probably, they can, to use the expression the kids use, trauma dump on you. And you still might only get 10% of the iceberg, right? You're like, you you'll hear it and you'll be like, oh my goodness, I've just now heard everything about their life and all of their problems. They haven't even touched the surface yet. That was just the part they felt comfortable telling you, right? So having those moments where they can talk to someone, having those moments of peace and space, and having the ability to just reach out, that conversation with a specialist could have been that one conversation that that changed something special for that, right? So don't, as a leader, don't be a stumbling block. There is nothing going on in your organization that isn't worth an hour. And I have noticed the one common denominator in every place that I've ever worked has been me. Every time I've worked somewhere, I've always noticed I was there.
SPEAKER_02This is true.
SPEAKER_00So you're you're right. If you don't heal yourself, you know, it's an overplayed metaphor, analogy, simile. I don't even know what word we're using for these things now, but and it hasn't changed. I just don't know it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Care for ourselves, it's incredibly important and unfortunately often overlooked and overshadowed in the world and the workplaces we are in.
SPEAKER_00No one wants to seem selfish.
SPEAKER_01No. And I kind of struggle with that because I think the word selfish is often applied to self-care. But if you can't take care of yourself, you can't show up and provide care for others.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Any closing thoughts you have on the topic?
SPEAKER_00You know, I think the biggest closing thought was what we've been talking about, probably this last 10-15 minutes is you have to take care of yourself. You have to, I cannot stress that enough. If you, as an individual, you must take care of yourself. As a leader, you must take care of yourself and you must take care of others. And you must give the space to both yourself and to them. Again, there is nothing that can show a greater level of amount of care, in my opinion, than being able to give them the space to heal and giving them the space to talk to someone that can help them in that process. It is it is a master class in leadership when you are able to see the need of someone else at that level and be able to offer that. Because it did not exist 20, 30, 40 years ago. It's a new wave of leadership. It's something that's being asked of leaders now that's never been asked before. And status quo and old eaters leadership mottos won't get you won't get you where you need to go when it comes to mental health. And it has to be addressed.