Time and Distance

Jenn Wiggin, an executive producer of TV shows, films, and plays, discusses the shifting dynamics of her 30-year friendship with an actress in New York. After Jenn married and moved away from New York, her best friend accused her of neglecting their connection, leading to a two-year period of distance. Jenn responded calmly to the accusation, and she reflects on the tension between the expectations of frequent contact and the reality of evolving lives and responsibilities. Ultimately, the relationship healed after a life-altering event, teaching Jen that true friendship transcends daily communication.

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. We've all been there. Caught in a conversation with someone indignant who refuses to budge. Not because they have the evidence or the facts on their side. But because they claim to know that you can't prove them wrong.

Michael Lee: This is the essence of the Appeal to Ignorance, also known as the Burden of Proof Fallacy. It's when someone argues that their belief must be true because it hasn't been proven false, or vice versa. In other words, I'm right because I'm not wrong. Imagine you're talking with someone about the existence of ghosts.

Michael Lee: Let's say it's your cousin. Your cousin says they've experienced some weird, eerie things. Noises in the night, a box of tissues showed up in a place they didn't remember moving it to. Stuff like that. Your cousin says nobody can really prove that [00:01:00] ghosts aren't real, so they must be. This is a classic example of the appeal to ignorance.

Michael Lee: Instead of offering evidence that isn't easily explained away for their claim, they place the burden on you to disprove it. But as we all know, just because something can't be proven false doesn't mean it's true. Let's take another scenario. Someone in your friend's circle has consistently claimed to be a descendant of the Romanovs, the last of the Russian czars.

Michael Lee: You don't believe this person. Maybe they're lying. Maybe they're just misinformed. Either way, you don't think it's true. Your friend, the alleged Romanov, says, well, no one has shown us a different lineage, so maybe there's something there. The absence of proof doesn't automatically confirm the opposite.

Michael Lee: The danger of this fallacy is that it encourages false beliefs, or leaps into fantastical belief without evidence of something to land on. Whether it's about ghosts, the truthfulness of a story, or anything else. The burden of proof always lies with the [00:02:00] person making the claim. In the end, when someone tosses this fallacy into a conversation, you're not really having a debate.

Michael Lee: Instead, you're stuck in a game of prove me wrong, with no real evidence to move the conversation forward. So the next time someone throws the, you can't prove me wrong card, remember, you made the claim, let's hear the proof. I'm Michael Lee, Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston.

Michael Lee: Our guest today on When We Disagree is Jen Wiggin. Jen is the owner of Atomic Focus Entertainment, which is releasing Banned Together, the first featured documentary about book banning. Jen, tell us an argument story. 

Jenn Wiggin: Okay. Great to be here, Mike. Thanks for having me. So I, I'm going to preface this story with the fact that I've been thinking about a lot of disagreements I've had recently.

Jenn Wiggin: and in this political climate and around the film that we're releasing, which is about book banning and censorship. And [00:03:00] I'm choosing instead a more personal story. That I think folds into general civility in public. And, and I'm, I'm, I'm telling the story partially because I'm really curious how other people handle this.

Jenn Wiggin: And, um, that's why I chose the story. So, basically, I'm gonna go back to, um, I am 56 years old and I have, um, I'm gonna tell a story about my best friend. 

Okay. 

Jenn Wiggin: So, as a 56 year old, I've had, I think, four best friends in my life. First, being, you know, the young school children, you know, the first person you meet that becomes your best friend, who is still a very dear friend of mine, but we, our lives went completely separate ways.

Yeah. 

Jenn Wiggin: The second being the one that you have during school, um, which ended up being, um, you know, she lives in a different country now, so it's impossible to have that friendship. The third of which was my first adult best friend who I ended up, um, participating in putting her in rehab, which led to a 10 year non discussion [00:04:00] part of our friendship.

Jenn Wiggin: And we are very friendly now, but we can't share those moments anymore. The trust was broken. Um, so my best friend now is, um, is a woman who's an actress in New York and we've been best friends for more than 30 years. And my definition of best friend is, and I don't use that term lightly, my definition is we are people who have been through relationships, been through work issues, been through illness, been through 9 11 and, and things like that in New York City.

Jenn Wiggin: And we tell each other everything and we rely on each other and we trust each other. And that's more than 30 years. We have done all of those things. Um, and we both got married. later in life. She was in her late 40s, I think. And I was in my early 40s when we each got married. Um, and it's been 15 years since then.

Jenn Wiggin: So what happened is this relationship that was, had [00:05:00] no barriers because we were adult single women in New York City, then finding the, our long term relationships and going into those who about six years ago, it came to a head. And it was a surprise to me that this happened. And I was moving to Charleston at the time and Um, I just, I got a phone call from her that basically was a three hour prying, yelling, screaming at me session of how I was not a good friend.

Michael Lee: What was the accusation? 

Jenn Wiggin: The accusation was you don't participate anymore. You don't reach out to me. I'm the one who has to call you all of the time, you know, and, and various versions of that. And what had happened was, when we got married, her life kind of stayed the same. 

Michael Lee: She got married before 

Jenn Wiggin: her? She got married before me.

Michael Lee: Oh. 

Jenn Wiggin: About a year and a half before me. And, but she stayed in New York City, living in a high rise. She married a man who had, uh, [00:06:00] children, so she had stepchildren. And her life stayed nearly the same. When I got married, I chose to make a change. I left New York City. 

Right. 

Jenn Wiggin: I married a man who had children.

Jenn Wiggin: And I devoted my time to getting to know the children and becoming a part of their lives and deciding where to live because of that and how to work because of that. And we made very different choices. So my life had to change and I had to commit time to that. And, uh, it all came to a head with this conversation that I was completely taken aback by.

Jenn Wiggin: And that conversation ended with, I, I did a lot of listening, and I gave a fairly brief explanation of why I didn't agree with her, and I didn't think we had the same problem that she thought we had. 

Okay. 

Jenn Wiggin: And, um, she didn't hear that at the time, and we really had a very fractured relationship for about two years.

Michael Lee: Will you give a version of that very brief [00:07:00] retort that you offered? My very 

Jenn Wiggin: brief retort, and I firmly believe this still, which is why I'm curious how other people resolve these kinds of issues with your very, very best friend in the world. My very brief retort is, I don't call you every day and respond immediately when you text and do all of those things because we're best friends.

Jenn Wiggin: I don't need to do that. And that explanation was. Um, she didn't understand it. And my, my, my reasoning was, I know, I'm almost taking it for granted, and I don't like that expression, but I know we're always there. I don't need to talk to you every day. I don't need to tell you everything anymore. I have a husband, I have kids, I don't need to have that relationship, but our relationship is no weaker because of that.

Jenn Wiggin: And she needed the tactile. I need to speak with you. I need to hear from you. I need to know you're thinking of me sort of response. 

Michael Lee: [00:08:00] Yeah. I guess what I'm interested in is, uh, had that, I'm reading this a little bit in terms of attachment style, in terms of secure, anxious, and avoidant. And what I'm hearing is a little bit of an anxious attachment style coming to a head on her part, her accusing you of being avoidant.

Michael Lee: You saying that, in fact, no, my behavior is secure. Um, what did you, what was the culture, the communication culture? Of the relation of your relationship prior to this moment, were you in everyday communication and that had actually changed, was she more securely attached, but then was perceiving a threat to the established order in the sense of your marriage and your impending move, and that was bringing up some anxiety.

Jenn Wiggin: I think it was all of it. I think the reality that when she got married, her life physically stayed sort of the same, lived in the same building, lived in the same city, had the same jobs. Um, she's a performer. Um, and I was a [00:09:00] producer, which is how we met each other. You know, I hired her to be in a show 30 something years ago.

Jenn Wiggin: Um, and I think the, my life changing was a choice that I made. And in making those changes, I devoted some of my time to something else. And I don't know if we were, I suppose when we were single in New York, we spoke to each other every day, you know, on, on the morning of nine 11. Um, I I've always been a producer.

Jenn Wiggin: So my job that morning was to contact all of my friends in New York city to say, find a buddy. You were going to be with somebody today so that we all know somebody is with somebody. She was my buddy. that day. She was my person. So it went from a very everyday thing when we were much younger to, um, to something where we just communicated and I have a story to tell you.

Jenn Wiggin: I need you to hear me out and just, you don't even have to respond. I just had a bad day, but it wasn't daily. And I think, um, on her part, she had more to, um, talk about and need [00:10:00] advice about than I did at the time. I was, some of that was going more toward my family than toward that friendship. And I, and I understand that, that that can feel bad when Um, nothing else really in your life changed except this at that day.

Jenn Wiggin: It feels like this was the big change. And to me it was just part of many things that happened in my life. So I wasn't one to, and I'm still not one to have to talk to somebody every day and not talk about anything. Um, or I'm just walking to something, you know, be my partner while I'm walking to my appointment or something.

Jenn Wiggin: I like that. I appreciate it. But that is not something that if it went away, I would be upset about because that's not. what the basis of any relationship is. And I suppose those things were going away more and more. 

Michael Lee: You know, I would take 

Jenn Wiggin: a trip and not necessarily say it like a two day trip, a business trip someplace and not necessarily say, Oh, I'm doing this.

Jenn Wiggin: This is where I'm going to be. I'd come back and say, I did it. Well, how did I not know you were doing this? You know, that sort of a thing, [00:11:00] less participatory, but we had our own lives, you know? And, and to me, that best friend is, am I your person? And are you my person? And that never changed for me. 

Michael Lee: And in that conversation, over three hours, she was essentially saying that she was feeling that it had changed.

Michael Lee: She was feeling that abandoned, perhaps. 

Jenn Wiggin: Because physically it had changed, and I was physically not initiating the calls. I was responding to things rather than doing the outreach. Um, and you know, my life is busy. I, you know, I have other things happening and it wasn't completely true. It was sort of you never, you never, and it's not, I never, 

I 

Jenn Wiggin: don't do it as often as you do, but it's not, I never.

Jenn Wiggin: And you know, and that's usually, you know, comes out in any conversation. There's a lot of like, you know, full on, you never do this. I do sometimes do that. You're just ignoring that because it's making your argument stronger. 

Michael Lee: It's very dichotomous thinking that happens in this [00:12:00] fight flight scenario. Um, what was it like to be, like, on the other end of a three hour avalanche, that it was likely the result of much boiling over?

Michael Lee: Right. It's not like this. And I didn't know. It just happens that day. I 

Jenn Wiggin: didn't know it had been building, and she sort of related to me some of the things that I hadn't noticed, that she pointed out from months before. For example, on her birthday that year, I had texted her, happy birthday. Instead of calling.

Jenn Wiggin: And it had a lot to do with what was happening in my life at the time. Obviously it wasn't a choice to do that, but I thought that was adequate because, you know, we'll talk to each other sometime later in the week. Wanted to make sure I got in touch with you, you know, that sort of a thing, but it was very personal to her.

Jenn Wiggin: So there was a lot of that coming at me that I had to catch up on. I listened a lot on that call. I can, I can see myself pacing back and forth in a bedroom listening to this call and gave her the time that she needed to do it. It took hours of the day to just sort of get all of this out and. [00:13:00] My, my gut reaction after all of it was, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Jenn Wiggin: I'm sorry. There was a lot of apology that you feel this way, but not apology for how I acted. I was living my life. I thought it was expected as we got married and older and had kids and things like that, that this would happen. It happened more to me than it happened to her. So she was feeling the results of that.

Jenn Wiggin: And, um, so I apologized to the extent I could, like, I'm sorry you're feeling this way. I don't want you to be crying and be angry and I want you to, to understand where I'm coming from. But she would say in that call, you're not even crying. You're not emotional. Why aren't you, why aren't you crying? And I would say, because I feel good about our relationship.

Jenn Wiggin: I feel that it's as strong as it's ever been. I show it differently. I don't need the day to day. Touch in and I don't need the, I don't need that kind of relationship because I'm [00:14:00] also trying to make that in my other life. I'm trying to, you know, your husband should also be your best friend. Yeah. You know, so, um, so, but my answer was really fell on deaf ears and I think cut even harder.

Jenn Wiggin: And I thought really long and hard about this afterward, about did I say the right thing? Did I do, do I really feel that way? And I absolutely did. And it took a couple of years for that to end. I mean, we spoke to each other off and on. We did do a happy birthday. We did do those things. We were not going to not be friends, but the closeness was gone.

Michael Lee: What was going on communicative, in terms of communication over that couple year period? 

Jenn Wiggin: Very little. 

Michael Lee: Uh huh. 

Jenn Wiggin: Um, and we went on and did lives and, and moved and, you know, she would get a, a gig and you know, her family would have its own issues and things like that. Things we would have talked more and more about had we been closer, but I think it just had to happen [00:15:00] and it did end, you know, and now we are as close as we ever were.

Jenn Wiggin: We got back to that relationship and it did end and I think how it ended has a lot to do with Um, what I was trying to convey on that call and how it ended was her mother died and I was her person. 

Mm hmm. 

Jenn Wiggin: So I was the first person she called. I was the first person she wanted to talk to and to me that was yes.

Jenn Wiggin: That's exactly what you're supposed to do. And that's exactly what I was trying to convey in this, you know, this come to, and I guess my relationship maybe has to have that moment. I've never been somebody in a relationship, um, where I had arguments. I never did. My husband and I don't argue. I've never argued.

Jenn Wiggin: If I broke up with somebody, it was very mutual. It was just very friendly. I've never had that in my life. She's known that about me my entire life as well, that I'm an incredibly, um, [00:16:00] calm person. So my reaction to things are not over the top. They're not, they don't tend to be overly emotional. But I felt that that's exactly what should have happened.

Jenn Wiggin: If your mom dies, what do you do? You go to your person. And I was still her person. And I think that happening, we never spoke about it again and we were close friends again after that time. And I just find that very interesting that, you know, we're living in this world right now where there's so much argument and so much pain and so many different sides to what's happening that You just sort of have to go back to how you, I go back to, how you live your life.

Jenn Wiggin: How do you treat other people? How do you, what is your expectation of other people? And what do you need to give in response to that? My response to it is not, I have this list of things I have to do to keep my friendships. My response to that is, I'm your person. Regardless of what [00:17:00] happens, I'm your person.

Jenn Wiggin: And if I'm not your person, something else happened. Something else happened where we heard each other in a different way, or we learned something that, you know, I don't know how best friend friendships go away. Um, but I just, you know, even in these times, I sort of have to approach this I could spend my days arguing with people about what's happening in this world.

Jenn Wiggin: I really could. And say to those people, the decisions you're making are hurting people. And I feel like that conversation is getting redundant. It's been going on for quite a while. And I am of the mind that you don't change people. You can't change somebody's mind by having a disagreement with them. on, on a large scale level of, did you vote for Donald Trump or did you not vote for Donald Trump?

Jenn Wiggin: I think those are things where you don't change people's minds. So having those conversations tend to become more, how could you do this to [00:18:00] me? You're hurting me. You're hurting my friends, the community that I share, the people that I support, your decision is hurting me. And I just. I just feel, I'm just sort of this calm natured, very level headed person, that those conversations don't get me anywhere anymore.

Jenn Wiggin: So I tend to now avoid them, and um, I have a lot to say, you know, but I avoid them. And I, you know, I just, this is the one disagreement argument in my adult life that was more meaningful than any conversation I could have with somebody about Donald Trump. 

Michael Lee: And even in that conversation, you didn't say very much.

Jenn Wiggin: I didn't say very much. I think the lack of saying things said a lot to her at the time. Um, but I didn't say very much because I was extremely secure in how I felt about it. And my challenge was to try to have, to help her understand how that was [00:19:00] good. That was not a bad thing. I don't have to call you every day because I don't have to call you every day.

Jenn Wiggin: We have this relationship that goes beyond that. And it seems sort of, you know, small and at times, but you know, when, when you look at this show and you, and, and the, and what you want to talk to people about, it is the, it is the disagreement that stayed with me for years and that I questioned for years.

Jenn Wiggin: Did I do the right thing? Did I say telling the truth? Was that the right thing to do? You know, should I have been more, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. This won't happen anymore, which wouldn't have been the truth for me. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, I saw this distinction recently that's coming up for me a bit as I listen to this story about How hard it can be to understand why you want to talk to somebody or be near somebody every single day I think it can largely apply to romantic relationships, but certainly close friendships [00:20:00] or parental relationships, too which is Does my desire to talk to you every day come from a place of love or come from a place of insecurity?

Michael Lee: Right. Insecurity about what you're doing for me and making me feel better in the world that day. And I've kind of externalized my nervous system and its ability to feel regulated to somebody else's words or deeds or proximity to me. And then how thin that line can be between my need for you to be a balm for my wounds.

Michael Lee: And just my genuine desire, because I love you, to be close to you. And then on the flip side, how much desire and mystery can be nurtured by distance, both strategic and accidental. 

Jenn Wiggin: Well, I think the first part of that is, it's really hard to keep up. 

Yeah. 

Jenn Wiggin: You're an adult. You have a job, you have a family, a husband, kids, grandkids, [00:21:00] and it's really hard because what happens when you can't physically, for other reasons outside of your control, can't continue to do it?

Jenn Wiggin: Whose fault is that? What does it do to the relationship? So, to me, part of it is You know, it's one thing when you are single living in a big city and you have that friend that you do everything with that sort of expected and, and that is not unusual for that time in life. But when that starts to change for both of those people.

Jenn Wiggin: You know, it, you're putting yourself in a position of, we both have to make the decision to realize that we have more in our personal lives now than we did. We can't go out every night together because there are other people that we have in our lives. So, we kind of both need to do that. And, you know, it's hard when only one person sort of makes that [00:22:00] change.

Jenn Wiggin: Now I will say, she married into a relationship, um, she's Jewish and she married a Jewish man and married into a relationship where she became Shomer Shabbos. So suddenly she was not available to me if I wanted to call on a Saturday afternoon with a problem. I couldn't reach her. So, but that's part of life.

Jenn Wiggin: You know, it's just sort of, okay, that's a choice and I will respect that. I have to respect it. Uh, it's something I just sort of put up on the wall as a reminder, you know, give, give her that space to do that because it's a decision that she made in this relationship. But it seemed very, um, and I don't want to place any blame on her because her relationship, her friendship with me is very real.

Jenn Wiggin: It is very do or die, very I am there during the hard times, very all of that. And I don't think that ever changed, but, but we did have a different. response to what happens when you can't do the everyday thing anymore because [00:23:00] you make choices in your life that, that. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. 

Jenn Wiggin: And only one of you actually makes the change.

Michael Lee: Yeah, your relationship had changed because you had changed as individuals, but your point was that the personhood, your personhood status for one another had not changed amidst those changes. In fact, perhaps it had been reinforced. And that leads me to the last question, the one I'd really like to hear you kind of sum this up a bit about, which is, you said at the outset, and I really appreciate your thoughtfulness about which conflict to talk about, and you said you talk about a personal one that's kind of been vexing.

Michael Lee: Did you do the right thing for several years? And so, but as I listen to you narrate the story, I don't hear much ambivalence. I don't hear any second guessing. Um, and so I'm curious about your, the long term impact of this in your memory. I don't 

Jenn Wiggin: really second guess it. It's hard to explain. I suppose if I went back and did it all over, I would do the same thing.

Jenn Wiggin: So that is secure [00:24:00] in my mind because I felt Very strongly about what I did. I think what I needed to have known better going into it was the other side. And I think the, the fact that I was surprised by what happened is a fault of mine. And I think I do, I do have some blame there that I didn't see that coming.

Jenn Wiggin: And I didn't see it coming because I made an assumption that. My definition of best friend was the same to her as it was to me, and that caused a problem. And, and I think probably for the couple of years that we weren't very close after that, that weighed heavily. And, You know, what happens is then, you know, you get the phone call, my mother died, and all of that has to go out the window, right?

Jenn Wiggin: And on both sides. It went right out the window and we never really spoke about it again, but I, I suppose I did make a change. [00:25:00] To try to make up for the fact that I was caught, you know, unawares of that, that conversation coming. So, and my life was a little more settled at the time. I had already moved. I had been married.

Jenn Wiggin: My kids had graduated college. You know, all of those things had happened. So I was able to say, okay, I'm going to initiate more of these phone calls. I'm going to hear what she said. I did hear it at the time, but I'm going to act on that differently. And so I think it, it ultimately happened. Um, for a good reason, and I think it probably, I don't know that our relationship could have been made stronger.

Jenn Wiggin: Honestly, I don't think it, I don't think that's fair to say it was made stronger because of this. We were always the people that we were. I think the communication was made a little clearer then, but we didn't have to go back and, and talk about it. I just made the subtle enough changes. Um, in my life, so that there was a compromise that we both made that, that made sense.

Jenn Wiggin: But I don't know what [00:26:00] people do when that doesn't get fixed. Because I don't know how people survive in life without that person. And I suppose, you know, there are people who don't, who would listen to this and go, I don't have that person. Who is, who is my guy, my person, who is the person I go to? You know?

Jenn Wiggin: And. I suppose there are people who maybe don't know what that is, I would certainly suggest finding them, you know, if you can. 

Yeah. 

Jenn Wiggin: Um, you know, they happen pretty generically, and they happen without knowing that they're happening, but I, you know, waking up the morning of 9 11 and not having that person would have been pretty difficult.

Michael Lee: That's a powerful thought to close on. Mm hmm. Jen Wiggin, thank you so much for being on When We Disagree. 

Jenn Wiggin: Great, thanks. Great to be here. 

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail.

Michael Lee: [00:27:00] com