How to Give a Real Apology (Not Just Sorry)

To err is human, so is apologizing!
Sometimes, when we demonstrate our biases, there's an opportunity to admit wrongness and wrongdoing - and when you apologize, there are some pieces to remember so it lands and makes the intended impact.  Join our hosts as they discuss what an apology can really do for our work, our relationships and our conversations in the work to be more inclusive.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back to the Beyond the Training Podcast. Jamie, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:04

I'm great. Cozy and comfy.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Cozy and comfy. I like that for you, for sure. Well, before we get started with our topic today, tell me something good.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Uh, we've talked about you wearing hoodies a lot in these podcasts, and you're wearing a hoodie today. And I said, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna wear a comfy sweatshirt.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

And and and that's why you're saying comfy and cozy today.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

That's why I'm saying comfy and cozy, and that's something good today.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

I like it, for sure. Uh, something good for me today. I was just reminded of one of my favorites, not the the top favorite candy uh from my childhood. That's uh Fun Dip. Yeah, I'm I'm a big fan of Fun Dip.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

You're reminded of it because you saw it a wrapper from my kids.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Well, I mean, I didn't want to out how I found out about it or thought about it, but even this uh last weekend we had a family birthday and we were talking about how some of us in our family used to walk around with a bag of Kool-Aid and a wet finger, and uh that was enough for a snack.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Kool-Aid and the amount of sugar that you needed to make Kool-Aid Kool-Aid.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Needed to make it or used to make it?

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Needed.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Oh to uh yeah, I mean, some of us used it because for the directions.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Okay, for the directions. There was a lot of sugar already.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

I never read the directions.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Right. And then above and beyond the sugar that we put in.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Um, gosh, Kool-Aid. And uh, I don't buy fun dip that is leftover remnants from a school event.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Sure. Schools give out fun dip, schools give out Takis and hot Cheetos, uh hot pickles, and there are some schools that have tahine and chemoy that they give out as a part of their lunches and snacks as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Fun dip.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Yeah, uh that's just what I was thinking about. Just I think fun dip is awesome. Candy can be awesome and reminds me of a a time back when. That's all.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Yeah, I had a lot of candy in my time, and I like to think I'm doing just fine, so I'm sure my kids will be just fine with some fun dip along the way.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Indeed, yeah, no, no hashtag, no judgment for sure. Uh, so have this has nothing to do with what we actually came to talk on the podcast about today. Um, I remember in an episode before that you and I were getting into a conversation about apologies. And often when folks are moving with us in the beyond the training space from intent to impact, they are challenged by the idea that they might step in it, that they might mess up and do something wrong, that something that uh displays their biases, that shows that they made an assumption, or even worse, that they might have said something that harkens back to a really uh derogatory term or time and they've been shown that you know you shouldn't use that word anymore, or uh we don't talk like that anymore, whatever the thing is, and now they they feel that they have done something wrong and they want to fix it. And a lot of people have been taught it's culturally acceptable that when you make a mistake, you apologize. And so I totally stepped in it um a long time ago with one of your children, one of your little truth tellers, and uh I want to apologize, and I think that's a good thing to do. That I think that's what we do is set the stage for if you, when you, not if, when you step in it, you apologize, so that you can acknowledge that your intent and your impact didn't align, and then you move forward. You seem to have a different opinion on that.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

I have a different opinion on a lot of things.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Well, yes, that's that's one of the favorite things that I have about you is that you have a different opinion on it.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Um so one, I I want to clarify it for you and for the audience, you didn't totally step in it. There's a million other things that you could have done that would have been totally step in it. Okay. So I didn't perceive it, and I don't believe that she perceived it as you totally stepping in it. Um, so I think that's a whole podcast, too, of the differences in perspective on what it means to totally step in it. Um and we each get to have our perspective uh and from the I don't want to use these terms, but help me think of it instead of perpetrator and victim, what's a different word that I can use in this example?

SPEAKER_02 4:21

I mean offender and receiver.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Receiver. I would like that word better because I don't feel like it was anything that you did indicated that she was a victim. So the receiver of this experience. Um for us it was fine. Um you took it harder than we did, which is why I don't need apology is not necessary or warranted.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

And um so I'll I'll stop there for now. Okay, so I want to be clear though. I demonstrated a bias that I had.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

What was the bias?

SPEAKER_02 4:59

That what I was looking at um with regard to your child was something that I understood, that it's something that I that I knew about them. And so I thought I knew something and didn't, and I was wrong. And and that happens all the time, right? That um someone will look at someone else's body and go, oh yeah, I know what that is, and talk about it, either around gender identity or around uh spiritual uh uh uh understanding or spiritual traditions uh about just what somebody likes, or even in the worst case scenarios, uh you and I went to the to the same college campus. You know, there are a lot of conversations about wearing something uh and the biases, the assumptions that people make just because someone is wearing something and whether or not that's okay. That's another conversation that we were having with your kid, and I did have a bias. My bias was demonstrated, that wasn't my intention, and sure, it sounds like I didn't harm you or your child in my assumption, in my assuming. And at the same time, I do have some shame about that. I I really do feel like I was showing my biases, I didn't intend to do that. Uh, it could have caused harm, and and neither of us knows what's in the mind of your child, for sure, for sure. So I'm really hopeful that what you're saying is correct, but I wanna I do think that this kind of topic scenario warrants an apology.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

This is a really interesting one, and I will say this should be the last time we talk about it. I don't know that there needs to be any more energy, and I don't even know if we would have talked about it if had I not brought it up in the last.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Just so you know, I've been thinking about it a lot, but okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Podcast. Okay. You've been thinking about it, but I don't know that we haven't talked about it since. Right. Um, and and it's been weeks ago. And I'm very curious now, actually, especially as it relates to kids, what an apology would do for her? Would it bring back up for her, like, oh yeah, Robert did do that thing. And I'm really mad about it. Or like, oh, am I supposed to be mad about that? I wasn't mad about it. Was I supposed to be offended by it? Um, so that's interesting as well. Um, and as we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion, yes, we should be apologizing and we should be taking with accountability. So the apology should be wrapped up in I'm apologizing because I want to take accountability for the impact my words had on you.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Versus, I'm so sorry I did that. Period. Let's get over it.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

Can we move on? Yeah. Oh, uh I'd like to believe that my apology would or will be uh well thought out and full of uh taking accountability. I would like to think that. And especially because, as you asked, when thinking about an apology for a child, what would it do? So, not just thinking about diversity, equity, inclusion, although what I'm about to say is certainly a part of demonstrating one's value, and we don't do that a very good job, do a good job of that with children, I would argue in our culture. But an adult apologizing to a child sends a number of messages about the power dynamic between us. That I can humanize you. I I do see you as a human being, even though you're a little human being smaller than me, and while I may have more power over you or power around you or with you, I can mess up and own that, uh, especially uh messing up around something that is connected to you that I didn't actually uh get correct. And sending that message, I'm hopeful, will level the playing field for your kids' interaction with people who aren't their parents, adults who aren't their parents, uh, going forward. They understand those are human beings. The teacher is a human being, the doctor is a human being, the DEI guy. They're a human being, and they see me as a worthy human being as well, worthy enough to say, I got it wrong, and I'm sorry about that. And and my hope is to do better, right? There's that that piece too, is that I'm not gonna continue to uh uh double down on the thing that I got wrong, especially because I know that I did now.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Yeah, I you're absolutely right. It reminded me of just um a few days ago, something happened, and I don't know, I can't remember if I snapped at one of my kids or not, and I immediately said, I'm sorry, I I didn't mean to show up that way. And without prompting, they apologized for their behavior that contributed me to me snapping, and so just the modeling and the humanizing of it. Um, and it was a just a cool moment between the two of us that we were able to just see each other. Um, and it was prompted. I could have easily snapped, stayed in that moment, but I was able to reflect on I didn't want to show up that way for you, and they were able to immediately model back. Sorry that I showed up that way as well.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

Well, great conversation over. We don't even have that's not a very long podcast episode at all.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Well, so we are no longer talking about then the situation that happened that caused you to want to apologize. But what I do want to dig into is when we misstep, when we misgender someone, when we use a term that is offensive to somebody else, when we cause harm, when we engage in behaviors that might that are perceived, experienced as exclusive, do we need to apologize?

SPEAKER_02 10:25

I think yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Yes, we do. And what about the people that say, I don't want your apologies?

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Well, in a moment, I think when I've stepped in it, in let's say uh we're in training, right, and I'm talking um about the work that I do, and I use a word that is uh it's um we are all learning now that it's outdated, right? Um, or we're learning that there are some historical context that maybe we don't want to call back to. And so I use the word and I found out that it it's harmful to someone in the room or to someone who's connected to someone who's in the room. And somebody says, that, ouch, yeah, in that moment, uh my bad. I'm sorry, I did not intend for that to happen. I recognize that saying this word can be harmful, did harm you, and I'm gonna do better. If someone says I don't want your apologies, okay, cool, I understand that, and I want to make sure to communicate that I heard you, that I'm going to move forward and hopefully do better. That's an important thing to do, especially in the room, if not, you know, one-on-one.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

And that's a best in class apology. Oh, but what you just said. So it's I I hear you, I want to take accountability for the impact that my words had, versus sometimes what we see in in trainings is I'm sorry, I didn't mean to get over it.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

I said I'm sorry, what's the issue?

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Um, and it's because we don't take accountability. And I've had my own in my own journey where I have worked to take accountability. I apologized, I reckoned with the impact, and people want nothing to do with me after that. Apologies or not. Apology or not. And um, I I've had to make sure that my apology wasn't about trying to just move on from the situation. Like, can I sorry, can we just move on from this? Um and that's been an important learning for me um throughout my life is why am I apologizing? Is it to save face? Is it for me, or is my apology really rooted and centered in the harm that I caused?

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Yeah, I I think having reasoning behind or meaning, having a meaningful apology makes a lot of sense. Um because there are times when you say, Ah, I'm sorry, and it it's clear that you're not actually sorry, that you're not actually atoning for the harm or reckoning with the impact. Um, there's a team member I remember working with years ago who was frustrated at work because her organization uh she didn't feel like her organization ever did anything to right the wrong that she had experienced. So this uh this woman identifies as a black woman. Um, and on her team, one of her team members who identifies as a white woman told a story about relatives in her family, and she used the N-word, the N-word being a word that is uh culturally understandable as derogatory to describe black Americans, specifically black people, but black Americans. So the the white team member, white woman who has a team member, she said, Out the gate, hey, I'm sorry about what I'm about to say, but this is how we talk in our house. And the the the black woman said, Don't say it, because I'm standing right here. And the woman said, Again, I'm sorry, but I this is how I'm telling the story. I'm just telling the story. And so there are times, so she did say the word, by the way. She said after After saying, I'm sorry, I'm about to say don't say the word. Correct, yeah. Whew. Yeah. And so uh she told the story, said the said the word, told the story, and although she was reported to human resources, nothing came of it. And it happened again later on, you know, yeah a year later, it happened again, telling a very similar story, but telling it to somebody else in the space of this this uh original black woman. Long story short, the the woman using the N-word in her stories who had said, Hey, I'm sorry, this is gonna offend you, but I'm gonna say it anyway, wasn't ever discipline. And the the woman who was offended, uh specifically the one the woman who said, Don't do it, don't say it, ended up leaving, burning out of that particular position, even though she got an apology before the woman had actually said it. So when you talk about a meaningful apology, one that has accountability, um, one that talks about doing better and then actually doing better, that's actually meaningful and important. That's the kind of apology we want to do, not to excuse behavior or excuse impact. Like, hey, I'm gonna hurt you. It's okay though, because I just gave you my sorry at the beginning. That's not what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

And I believe that some of the I don't want your apology, just do better comes from examples like that. Do better. I don't see you doing better. So stop saying sorry because you're not doing better.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

And this person had an opportunity to do better, was given uh don't say this, and and still made a different choice, which is heartbreaking. Um somebody tells you don't do it and you still do it.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

Yeah. Well, so here's the thing though what if those are the words that this is what she said, these are the words that we use in my family.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

To previous conversations that we have, read the room. Identity matters.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

In your family, in your culture, cool. But when you walk outside of those four walls, you enter, there's hundreds of other families that are in the room. There's hundreds of other cultures that are in the room, and you can't just show up and say, Well, this is how we talk in my family. What about how everybody else talks in their family? And what about whatever is culturally acceptable and okay with everybody else's family? It reminds me of uh the conversation we had in a previous podcast around drive for other people.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

Oh, yeah, yeah. Shout out to Colin who said that. Yeah. His mama said that actually.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Yeah, shout out to Colin's mom. Um when you're using your words, drive for other people, use your words for other people, not just for you and and your culture. Um, and it reminds me of I just saw, I can't even remember what it was, and I it looked pretty recent come over across my social feeds of a person doing an interview that uses they them pronouns, and they were talking about I can't even remember what they were talking about, and they introduced themselves that way, and the the moderator jumped on that, and they didn't even talk, get to talk about what that person was there to talk about because the moderator said, You introduced yourself in a grammatically incorrect way and just went in. And I it was just it continues to be baffling to me that people can be so set in what they believe is correct grammar that they lose the person for sure was not driving for others. They were determined to not let anybody merge in. They were determined to be right, and and it it was just fascinating and heartbreaking. And um shout out to to the person who showed up um and didn't have to, but did show up with grace and yet set boundaries for how they wanted to be treated.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

I I feel for so many of the people that show up in our media as the either the token or the representative of their people, and they're treated like the token or the one representative of their people. And sometimes those media networks will will send out an apology like, hey, the way we set this up didn't go right, or that one person, our one anchor, is the one who did the thing, and we're apologi- we we're sorry about that. Um by and large, though, that that is not the case. It's why we have to really pay attention to our media and what it is that we're looking at and watching, who it is that we're listening to, uh, and really sift through through a lot of that. Uh organizations apologize. So we talked about people apologizing and the the identity matters there, the place matters there. What would you say about an uh organizational apology? Whether it's a media network, a school, a hospital, the police force, like what do you think then?

SPEAKER_00 19:05

I I was immediately uh brought back to we were brought in by an organization um who realized they needed to apologize to an entire community. And the community had said that's not enough. And the community said, here is all of the things, behaviors that you need to change and things you need to do differently. And um and so organizations for sure apologize, and communities more and more and more are saying, I don't want your apology. I want you to change your behaviors, I want you to change your systems, I want you to understand what you did. Want you understand the impact of what you did, Asari is not enough.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

So are we are you saying to CEOs out there or executive directors out there that if they mess up, they don't need to apologize, they just need to fix it?

SPEAKER_00 20:03

I'm saying you need to do both. Oh, okay. You need to apologize and take accountability and work to change.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Okay, I'm with you. I see, I thought we were going to argue about these things, but I I I love that you're what you're saying is there's more to your apology. There needs to be more to your apology. So whatever you're putting on your website, whatever you put into your uh public uh address or your uh press release needs to be followed up with substantive, tangible, measurable change.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

For sure. And uh I imagine that there's danger for taking accountability for organizations. Yeah. And apologizing. Yeah. That opens you up.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Well, that's that's people in general. That's not just organizations, people in general. We work with a lot of doctors and nurses, and in the medical field, it's really hard to say I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Is and uh teachers too, but it is really hard for doctors and nurses, uh, care providers to say I'm sorry because that's admitting something bad happened. And although it's kind of easy to remember that sometimes you go to the hospital or to your care provider and you don't get healed, we we remember that there's an expectation that our doctors, nurses, care providers will heal us, uh therapists will heal us, and that's what we're going there for. And so when that doesn't happen, we need someone to blame. We need some a finger to point. And so in medicine, there has been this ongoing conversation as to whether or not saying you're sorry is an admission of guilt that you can be uh uh sued for. Can you lose your license because you've made a mistake? And hospital to hospital, uh, it's different, right? Care provider to care provider is different as the how they talk about mistakes. But can you imagine the pressure? Neither of us are doctors, but can you imagine the pressure of surgeons or even primary care physicians, of nurses, of Radiologists of even phlebotomists are taking your blood and they make a mistake. We make mistakes, you and I, all the time. I made a few of them today, right? And in in work, like at work, I made mistakes at work, and still my saying I'm sorry was not gonna get me fired. I don't have a board that I would have to uh go up and and and talk to to take my license to do DEI work on and on and on.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

We do lose contracts though.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Sure. But if we lose one contract or even five, that's not gonna stop me from practicing across the country or across the world.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

I'm not saying that our job is harder than doctors.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

Okay, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

And yet there's cancel culture and it does exist.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

Sure. And that's that's more to the point. I think cancel culture has been around for uh a lot of positions of trust. Doctors, nurses, and care providers, so therapists and social workers, case managers, judges, uh politicians, police officers, firefighters, all of those folks have those titles where it's hard for them to say I'm sorry, and many of them don't. We don't get the apology letters that we think we should, especially ones that have substantive uh backing from the police department that just killed somebody unnecessarily. Not that killing someone is necessarily necessary. You get what I'm saying? Um, that the house that got burned down um was as a result of a mistake that the fire department made, or that the doctor um made a mistake and cut the wrong thing. Um we don't often hear that because it's because of that cancel culture that is so deep. And so what we're also doing, much like person-to-person apologies, is taking away that humanity and saying, You're an automaton, you should be a robot, you should be perfect, and that makes it hard to give an apology or to receive one for that matter, because we're always looking for so much more from that those high-pressure positions.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

For sure. And um expecting perfection is upsetting us up all for failure.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

And yet I want perfection if I'm going to get to the first time.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

I was just getting ready to ask you, don't you want your doctor to be perfect?

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yes. Yeah. I need my doctor to be perfect. Um, yeah, it's it uh wow. Yeah, I don't I'm lost for words here. I want my doctor to be perfect, and yet I want people to give me a lot of grace.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Right. Yeah, and and so under the knife, how much grace are you willing to give?

SPEAKER_00 24:39

None.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

That's tough. Can you imagine being in a position like that? We uh you were saying that you're not saying that our jobs are harder, but we do own a lot of responsibility as trainers, as educators, um, as folks that consult uh different groups and different communities. The the folks that we've talked to today in just our work consulting touch so many other lives. And so we have a lot of responsibility that if we're delivering information that could be harmful or that people will take out of context and do harm with, that ends up landing on us. And it'd be pretty easy to trace back to well, Seven Focus told me we should do it this way or we should treat these people this this way, and so we do have a lot of pressure in that, and and we don't want to be canceled by any means. Uh at the same time, I don't know that anybody expects us to be perfect, but there is this conversation about when the DEI people get it wrong. And you and I talk a lot about not showing up in such a way that that uh can cause us to have to apologize because we don't want to have to deal with that part.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Yeah, I yes, yes to everything, and um we also want to moder model vulnerability, and we want to model how to apologize, and we want to model what to do if we cause harm. Um and I do think we do that. For sure. Um, you know, somebody just yesterday in the session came, raised their hand and said, I want to challenge this. And we said, Great, do it. And the person came up afterwards and sort of felt bad, like, I'm sorry. And I was like, no, that's great. So we want to model challenging, we want to model apologizing, we want to model all of these behaviors that have not historically been professional to challenge the facilitator, to challenge the educator, to challenge the teacher. Um, and while we want to model all of those things, we don't want to cause harm. So we're not actively looking for an example to cause harm, to then apologize. Um it's a fascinating space to be in right now.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

It is, and I think it's important to say that if y'all are in a training, uh diversity, equity, inclusion training, or financial literacy training, or you're just uh learning how to become an educator or a doctor, whatever, we're not saying throw your hand up and wreck the whole thing because you have something to say. That's not the kind of conversation or challenge that we're saying is is what we're looking for. Uh there are ways to do that where you where you say, okay, this looks like I have I have something to share in this moment, and it's not about me, it's about our learning. It's different than I want to shout you down and tell you that you're wrong. That's a whole different kind of challenge. Uh, and so I think it's important to name that because what we don't want is all of our DEI practitioner uh uh colleagues to be like, y'all said that on the podcast, and now everybody raises their hand. I can't get I can't get anything out now that that's going on.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

For sure we are not saying that. Um, and uh what we are offering is apologies matter.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Consider the why. Why are you apologizing, take accountability and work to change behaviors? We have a model here at Seven Focus called the Four Hours of Growth.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

So um if and when we cause harm in a training space, um we have an opportunity to reflect on the harm that we caused, um receive feedback on the harm that we caused, um, hear from people that we've impacted, and we need to think about how are we how can we repair? What does the apology look like? Not just an a sorry, maybe it is um contributing financially to a community um and then um replace what behaviors am I gonna replace so I don't continue to cause that same harm.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Awesome. Four hours uh receive, reflect, repair, and then replace. Yes. Awesome. So a best in class apology, I'm gonna take that to the bank with me. A best in class apology uh is one that has some of that connected to it, right? So what did I do? Or reckoning that I made harm or that I did harm you, uh, being able to hear from you that that that happened without fighting you on it or trying to tell you why your feelings shouldn't be so sensitive, and then thinking about what I'm gonna do next. So some accountability for what my intent and impact misalignment was and what I'm gonna do forward so that they have better alignment, and then hope and talk about maybe even how we're gonna repair some of that in the relationship that hopefully we can have going forward.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

This is a quick podcast.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

I don't know that it was quick. I feel like we got through a lot there. I think the end of that is yes, apologies make a difference and that are necessary in our recognizing one's humanity, and we have to be paying attention to how we apologize so that it actually has the intended effect, as opposed to being just something we throw out there uh to dismiss real harm uh and real challenges to our collective humanity.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

We have a colleague, I know we're wrapping up, but we do have a colleague that says who works with young people and says they don't ever make kids apologize because oftentimes they don't know what they're apologizing for.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

We should bring them on. We should talk about that too.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

All right, for sure. We'd love to have guests on the Beyond the Training podcast, um, and uh look forward to that episode as well. Y'all, this has been great. Thank you for being here at the Beyond the Training podcast. We'd love to get your feedback. We love hearing from you. We've gotten some feedback as of late that we've already incorporated. So if that was you, want to hear back from you, see how we're doing, uh, send us an email at impact at seven focus.com or check us out on all of our socials at either Beyond the Training or Seven Focus, and we will see you next time.