Why Cultural Competence Isn't Enough

Have you ever heard the term "Cultural Competence"?  Do you think it's possible to actually become culturally competent?  Join us for the discussion about the pitfalls of this concept with our host, who are actually Qualified Administrators of the Intercultural Development Inventory, which is a measure of cultural competence!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Beyond the Training Podcast. Hey Jamie, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 0:04

I'm good. We're trying something new today. We're reporting our podcast quite early in the morning, but mornings are my jam. I got outside. It was still a bit brisk, but I still was able to have the sun in my face a little bit. So I'm great. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Um incredibly tired this early in the morning. And so it is what it is. I'm I'm here with you, ready for yet another episode where we go beyond the training to get to impact. It's gonna be a great podcast. No doubt, because I I got this thing that I've been thinking about the last uh several weeks with regard to what people are calling cultural competence. And you and I, both as qualified administrators of the intercultural development inventory, have an opportunity we we get with individuals, organizations, leaders, and even people in the community to talk about their cultural competence. And I've been thinking so much about how cultural competence isn't even enough in order to get to equity. It might even be not enough to get to equality now that I'm getting ready to say that. It's just not enough. Cultural competence isn't enough. And I wonder if you thought about that, if you agree with that. I've got a couple of examples of how I've seen it just play out that what we know about the continuum of intercultural competence tells us that it's not enough for us to do, not as an organization, certainly not as an organization that wants to move and best in class with regard to equity, inclusion, and even diversity. Let's just begin at the beginning. I don't think cultural competence is enough. Where do you stand on that?

SPEAKER_00 1:46

100% agree. Look at us. We agree in first thing uh here. Uh, I agree, it is not enough. And oftentimes when I engage in conversations around the IDI, I name this is one piece of a really big puzzle as we work towards equity, inclusion, access. It is not the puzzle, it is one small piece of really, really big work.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

So a lot of people think I want to get cultural competence. And we've been talking about cultural competence since the late 80s, maybe even earlier than that. And it sounds good. Uh anything that's beyond it is actually pretty daunting now that I'm thinking about it. Uh why wouldn't we want people to go beyond cultural competence?

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Just thought as you were talking, that cultural competence allows us to play nice in the sandbox, but it doesn't change anything around how is the sandbox created, who gets access to the sandbox, is there equity within the sandbox? And so it allows us, it allows people, which is interesting, to get closer to that thing of I'm nice to everybody.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Um, but it doesn't get us to equity. It doesn't get us to accessibility. Um and I I do think it's important work. So we do we use the idea that we talk about intercultural competence, and we actually talk about it as intercultural agility, um, because we don't believe that anybody can be competent in anybody else's culture. You can only be competent in your own. And if I'm being really honest, I'm not even competent in the own cultures that I'm a part of and I am in and out of. Um, so I I don't want to say that we sh that cultural confidence, cultural humility, cultural agility, whatever you call it, I don't want to say that it shouldn't be on the table because it should be, um, but it can't be the end of the journey. It has to be a piece of the journey. And I personally will say that cultural agility has helped me tremendously be a better human, humanize others um in in different ways. And I also recognize that it's only taking me to one leg of the journey. And there's a lot of other things that I need to be doing differently to get to equity.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Well, so it was very you said a new number of interesting things. You're not even competent in your own culture. Like, what does that look like? Why? Why is the first question? And then what does that even look like for you to be competent in your culture? Never mind other people's.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

When I think about some of the cultures that I'm a part of, um mother, I'm a mom. Uh, so there's a mother culture, and I'm a new mom still. Um, I'm figuring this stuff out. I was gonna use a choice cuss word, but I know I shouldn't. So I'm still figuring this stuff out along the way. Um, when I think, and we've talked about this on on the podcast in a previous podcast, um the connection to the indigenous, um, and indigenous meaning Latin A indigenous uh to this country, the culture that I'm connected to. I that was taken away from me for most of my upbringing. We did not grow up around um people who looked like me. And so I'm still reconnecting to that culture in a lot of ways, um, and deciding what parts of those, that culture, values, beliefs that I want to continue to uplift and what I don't want to uplift. Um I'm in a marriage. So that that's a lot of cultural components, bringing two culture, multiple cultures together and creating a new culture. So I'm still learning about all the those things that are important to me and what I used to be important to me, what I want to be important to me, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

So you named mother, latine, and marriage as some cultural reference points. I think at this point we should probably define culture for our listeners so that they understand what it is that we're talking about, because we have you, you and I interact with so many folks who will be have to be reminded that we all have culture, that we many of us are if not if not competent, we're experiencing and raised in multiple cultures, and we we move in and out of them no matter who it is that we are. So how do you, Jamie, how do you describe or even how do you define culture?

SPEAKER_00 6:47

You go first.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

You want me to go first. I think the I think the definition I like the most is culture is how we teach each other how to treat each other. How we teach each other how to treat each other. That's that's so many of our traditions, our beliefs, our languages, our unwritten rules, and written rules for sure, that govern how we move. And not it's it's it's in our laws, but it's not just our laws. There are the things that some of us are just like, well, yeah, that's just how it is. Well, it got to be that way because all of us agree that this is who we are and how we're going to move. There are customs, beliefs, practices, perceptions, values that we all agree upon. Those of us who are in this culture, whatever this means. So for those of us as mothers, for those of us who identify as Latinae, for those of us who are in a marriage, and there's so many different pieces in between those, but the the agreed upon or socially uh idealized items, the behaviors, the treatment that comes from in being in any of those things is culture, and that is how we teach each other how to treat each other. That's how I would say. What would you add, change, edit?

SPEAKER_00 8:17

I like a lot of that. What I would change is I don't know that we all agree upon it. And a lot of it's it's uh growing up, it's just this is the way we do things, for example. Um, whether or not how you greet adults, whether it's by their first name or with a salutation. Um, and it's not that young people say, like, yes, I agree upon this cultural norm. It's that's how you're told, uh, you're told to engage in these behaviors and practices. Um and then when you become adults, this is what I've experienced a lot with the IDI is people become adults and start to question and either question or continue to adopt those practices, values, and beliefs that they were raised with. So I would just edit that it's not necessarily agreed upon by individuals, it is an agreed upon set of behaviors that it's often unspoken agreed upon set of behaviors.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

So you agree, you just didn't say it out loud that you agree.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

I agree with the general sentiment, just not that this idea that um what did they say? Like a fish doesn't know it's in water. So a lot of the cultures that we're in, that's just we we don't know much difference. Um, and it's not like we came out of the womb and someone gave us a handbook.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Yes, indeed. Although there are some faith traditions that literally have a book that connect to our cultures.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

110, but they weren't necessarily given it at the womb, and that part of their culture is to learn about those things.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Mm-hmm. To teach them to learn about what's in the book, yes, absolutely, absolutely. And so if we have a solid definition of what is culture, then how how does one become competent? You mentioned your Latin A culture was something that you are reclaiming, something that you are learning more about and and teaching in your home, teaching about what it means to be a part of that culture. Toward competence? Is that the word? Is that the thing? You're working toward competence, or are you working towards familiarity? I I guess that's the question. To what end are you learning about a culture that belongs to you that you hadn't given given the handbook for? Yeah, what's the what's the where's the there there?

SPEAKER_00 11:11

I don't know how to answer that question yet. I'm still exploring it. There's not an end necessarily for me. Um, and there's you know, I was thinking about a mother culture, for example, that there is potentially a set of expectations that society has said this is what it means to be a mother, it's what it means to be a good mother, and there's a lot of things that I don't align with. Uh, I was just reading an article last night, less of an article, more of like an op-ed. I don't even know if it was that, but it was like 15 different quotes from people around what they wish parents would stop doing. And like 14 out of 15, I was like, okay, I do that and I disagree with you. Right. Yeah. So um, and I think my kids are wonderful human beings and um are growing up to be wonderful human beings. And that's not to say that your opinion is wrong. Cool, if you don't want your kids to do that, you don't want your kids to do that. And so what what I'm getting at here is that um there is especially I'll speak here to America. America says, here are how cultures are supposed to ebb and flow, move. Here's how cultures are supposed to, what did you say? How you tell each other how to treat you?

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

And there's a lot of um people that push and challenge those, right? Rightfully so, which is why intercultural confidence, intercultural agility is not enough to get to equity if you're not questioning why do I believe what I believe? Why do I engage the way that I engage? So, question for you, Robert, why why do you in we've talked about this before, but I don't know that I've heard the answer. In your culture, um, and correct me if I'm wrong, young people should call you Mr.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Yeah, why why do I believe that when you're younger than me, you say Mr. Robert? Why why is that?

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Well, and even before that, oh okay, how did you learn about that agreed upon set of behaviors?

SPEAKER_01 13:33

So I'm gonna definitely answer that, and we keep talking about the agreed upon, and I didn't want to miss that. I I do think we've all agreed upon our cultural norms. Perhaps not out loud. You did not out loud say, and and this is the this is connected to this example, students in schools they're told on the first day of class, hey uh Mr. Robert, your name is Not anymore. Well, I I haven't been in inside a classroom in quite some time, but what go with me here. When we first meet when we first meet an adult or a person, we first meet a person, then at some point you go, and your name is um, or hi, my name is, and there's I don't know how else to put it. If we haven't agreed upon, if I tell you my name, then that is what you're going to call me. And that's yes, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:32

But why mister for you?

SPEAKER_01 14:33

So so that's not your name. What that is my name.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

Is that what's on your birth certificate?

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Uh that's a great point. Uh no, it's it's not. And actually, the name that is on my most original birth certificate is not a name I want anybody calling me. So there's there's that. What is really interesting about this part of the conversation is that I believe in due respect. I believe that some of us are due a certain level of respect. All human beings, I believe, are entitled to their name, whatever it is on their, whether it's a birth certificate or what has been given to them as their name. I believe that that is what people should be called. If I say this is my name, this is how I want to be called. One. So that's that's the first part about that. Secondly, the Mr. is a sign of respect for adults, those who in the many cultures that I'm a part of, and many cultures that I think we we are a part of, um, for the most part, the adult is in is in charge and has earned the ability to be respected in a way that says, hey, you're in charge, and I recognize that. One way to do that is to say Mr. or Miss or Mix. The the way I have heard one uh part of our community talk about a non-binary way to to provide that kind of respect is mix, so miss, mr. Mix. And that nomenclature is a part of a cultural norm that says adults are in charge, have power, and if there's nothing else, at least are due that respect. I believe that because I was raised in such a way that that's what happens. You you you have adults, you come out of the womb. There's the the handbook part that you mentioned earlier. You come out of the womb and and you are giving respect to those elders in your midst. One way you say it out loud is you recognize them as Mr. Mr. Robert.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

This is like a whole nother podcast around due respect. And I want my kids, I don't I don't think that every adult is just due respect.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

What? No, like in okay, there are some people who who like do bad things, but if if your kids meet a person, uh an adult, you're like, hey, uh everybody, this is Mr. Robert, kids, this is Mr. Robert. But you don't have to call him Mr. until he does try until he shows you that he's worthy of the Mr.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

No, it's not about Mr. or Mix or Mrs. to me. It's that you should treat everybody with kindness, with I'm trying not to use the word respect. You you you should treat everybody fairly, kindly. Yes, thank you, no, thank you. Um, but I wouldn't say, and this is getting a bit into the teacher, I wouldn't say that every teacher is automatically earned their respect. And that's part of what I believe is the challenge with education. Now, do I think that there's still an adult in the room and there's still a young person in the room, and those are two different roles? Yes. And there it gets into this very tricky place where gosh, my parents always raised me that you know, you I have to respect you, I have to respect you, and you're engaging in behaviors that are not okay, but I have to respect you, I have to respect you. And so I want to make sure that my kids know that just because you, as you said, have to respect young people, it doesn't, or you're anybody that's older than you, it doesn't mean they can treat you any kind of way.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Yeah, yeah. I don't I don't think that respect and allowing bad behavior, whatever I said it out loud, knowing that we have to decide what is bad behavior. I don't think that those team those two things go together. That just because a person is an adult, let's say, and they are deserving of the respect of being an adult, which means that we call them Mr. Robert, also means that we don't talk about call out or uh or punish for that matter for bad behavior. And we see this in our country all the time that just because a person has a particular title means that they have some kind of immunity and political or otherwise. And that's not what I'm saying, because people in power, positions of trust, certainly our culture has actual laws that say don't behave badly. I think it's really interesting though, and you said that that's not what they're teaching in schools anymore. So I wonder what would happen if I'm in the front of the room and I'm like, hey, my name is Mr. Robert, that's how I am to be addressed. Your name is Jamie, if you were the student in the class. Your name is Jamie, you would like to be addressed as Jamie. My name is Mr. Robert, that's how I'd like to be addressed. If that didn't happen, then we're already off on a bad foot. Now, do I have some work to do to make sure that we have a relationship? And are there cultural norms that are connected to how we communicate with one another, how I demonstrate the power over and the power with uh in the classroom? Yes, those three things have to happen. But I'm feeling like what you're saying is that uh Mr. Robert doesn't get to just be called Mr. Robert just because he says that's his name, and that's I think dangerous uh and and takes us way far away from what we're trying to get into.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

I don't think it does though. Wow, I don't think it does take us way far away because so real life example on intercultural agility. I was not necessarily raised, I don't remember being raised to always say Mr. Miss Mix. I I just don't. And I remember one of our colleagues that we and I both work with, my kids came up and I was like, say hi to Danielle. And later she called me in and was like, you know, it needs to be missus. I, you know, that's what I would prefer. And I was like, oh, okay. And I was taken aback. One, these are my kids. You're telling me how to raise my kids, and two, um, not even two. So first I was taken aback, and then because of my work in intercultural agility, I was able to say, what does mutual adaptation look like here? And I don't know that there's been mutual adaptation, it's been me. What I've done is recognize that there's a cultural archetype of certain cultures that want people to use salutations for adults. And so often what I do now is I say, How do you want my kids to refer to you? I don't automatically assume that it's whatever it is. I just say, How do you want my kids? Um, and and it's probably split 50 50. Some people are like, Sharon's fine. And some people are like, huh, Mrs. Sharon, whatever it may be. Um, and so with this example here, what would cultural adaptation look like for you to come onto my side to meet me in the middle? That if my kids just say Robert, are you gonna be forgiving for them? Or how do you know that it's uh culture mutual adaptation with this example with us?

SPEAKER_01 22:10

That's that's a great question. I uh understand cultural differences and can respect that difference is different, and might even move so far as to believe that at least with your young people, then I would hear in their voice when they called me Robert as opposed to Mr. Robert, they would hear I would hear in their voice a bit of innocence or even uh just the the whatever the opposite of disrespect is, like they're not trying to be disrespectful intentionally. That's I would I benefit of the doubt, that's what we want we would want to give them. Now, if you heard, you already knew, then I said I'd prefer to be Mr. Robert, and then your kids are just like Robert, Robert, whatever, you know, and they're they're trying to poke that that bear. Now we have a whole different uh issue, we have a whole different problem because that that feels like disrespect, intentional disrespect, regardless of the fact that I've I've named what it is that I uh like to have. So then we have a cultural clash. And cultural clashes are not necessarily bad, they're not always around disrespect or respect. Cultural clashes are not bad, it's how we are able to deal with them, communicate even about them. We're communicating right now on the podcast about a particular cultural uh awareness, uh cultural value and perception. And I think it's just it's so interesting that it's so wrapped up in who we are, what we believe, um, and it really goes to we this is how we teach each other how to treat each other, and the unwritten part of it is the most difficult piece. Um and what I was saying at the top is that for organizations or communities, or even especially for leaders that are trying to get their organizations to be culturally competent or their people to be culturally competent, or even themselves, like this is not even enough. If you're not able to have this conversation, and we are two people who are steeped in whether you call it intercultural competence or uh intercultural agility, like we're steeped in it. We work on this, we we are using the vocabulary words, we are practicing on each other, and yet we sometimes mess it up, and yet we still have things to learn. As Jamie, you said, you still got work to do to even get to this thing called competence, intercultural competence that we may not even achieve at some point or realize. So it's not enough. That's what I say. To to every leader, for every to every listener out there, if what you're shooting for is intercultural competence or cultural competence, it's not going to be enough to get to equity. And I and I've got uh some reasons as to why, but first, first and foremost, Jamie, you agree?

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Yes. Oh this example, and back to the top of what I said, cultural competence does teach us how to play in the sandbox together. So it's teaching you and me when my kids come around you how to navigate each other. So it is important. And my cultural competence has allowed me to say, this is my value and belief, but that's not Robert's value and belief. And how do I adapt into a different culture? Allow my kids to adapt into a different culture and still hold true to our own values. What happens often is that people will say, No, I am absolutely not letting go of my value. And my kids will still call you Robert. And then you say, Cool, I'm not gonna come around you and your kids. And we're no longer in, yeah, right, we're no longer in the sandbox together. Or metaphorically, in the office, we're avoiding each other. We're not working as effectively and well as we should be because we're not, we don't know how to mutually adapt. And and it's not always mutually adapt adaptation. I might have implied this earlier, and I I want to make sure that this is clear. It's not 50-50. Mutual adaptation in this case is that I ask people, how do you want them to refer to you versus only doing it one way or not doing it at all? So uh cultural confidence, I I also want to stress, is important, and it can't be the only thing that organizations are engaging in. Is it a really important on-ramp? Yes. Is it work that people can and should be doing regularly and ongoing? Yes. Is it the only work people should be doing in pursuit of equity?

SPEAKER_01 26:46

No, especially because it's not gonna get you there. What what at best at best, cultural competence is gonna help you not disrespect people and in their cultures, that's or do it less. And if equity is about addressing and and acknowledging and addressing, knocking down barriers to access and to success that has been around for generations, you're gonna have to do more than than just be respectful.

unknown 27:15

Right?

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Um, and and so uh have an organization that uh the reason that this came up, and the reason I wanted to really share this with you is this organization that I'm working with right now that in and around celebrating the LGBTQIA 2S plus communities is tough for that organization. The organizational culture is such that it's so much easier to celebrate sameness and um commonalities and uh things that all make us the same. So that the things that make us all believe in the organizational culture, and that's why so many organizations are so really good at having organizational cultures that are strong. They build those because then we just all just do that thing. Let's just all be really good at the things that we're the same at, so that we don't have to talk about our differences. And you and I actually work in fields where talking about our differences is crucial and sometimes means the difference between life and death, belonging and exclusion in-group and out-group. And so my argument is that and the thing that I I'm just it's it's sitting in my like a thorn in my side that so many of us are working towards just talking about the minimization part of the intercultural competence um uh continuum that that we you and I work with. Let's just talk about what's the same about us so that we don't have to get into the sticky stuff, things that I disagree with, the things that make me uncomfortable. And there are so many folks in in our dominant cultures, our more mainstream cultures that are outside of uh the cultures of the LGBTQ plus communities. And I believe they deserve celebration. I believe that I have work to do, like what you were just saying, to even to even think about cultural competence. I have work to even get there when thinking about the communities that I was just naming. And that deserves celebration, that deserves acknowledgement. An organizational culture needs to be nimble enough and agile enough to be able to do that. And it's so easy to just stay outside of that multiple mutual adaptation that you're just naming. It's so easy to stay outside of that because recognizing and acknowledging differences and and allowing people to see, be seen in their authentic selves at work means that organizational culture takes a step back and is not the most salient thing.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Yeah, yes, I don't I don't have anything to add to that. It's really, really hard work. Um and the the work that we do with the IEI, again, I want to stress, I think is important. And organizations can't just do that work, and they have to push through the hard work, as you've named, to talk about difference and not just, but we're all human. Can can't we just focus on our humanity? So this has been a wonderful episode of Beyond the Training Podcast. Um, please check us out on all platforms. Um, and um we look forward to any feedback you have along the way. Hit us up at impact at seven-focus.com. We look forward to future conversations. Any last ad, Robert?

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Learn more about the cultures that you belong to and the cultures you're around so that you can actually be working towards that competence that you're talking about, not just seeing what you see on the Googles.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Awesome. We'll see you at the next one.