Who Actually Gets Hurt When Inclusion Goes Away?

Are White people under attack?  There are certainly some who feel that way - especially inside trainings and conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion.  In this episode, our hosts discuss the implications of the work to be inclusive in what can feel like divisive politics, media and relationships.
**this episode includes a disclaimer about some topics brought up by our hosts to offer some clarity ahead of listening**

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey y'all, before we get into this episode, we just wanted to give a little bit of a disclaimer because we understand that sometimes things you hear on the podcast might sound one way or another. And we went through listening to this one and wanted to give you a couple of things to think about. So, Jamie, what do you want our listeners to be thinking about when they get into this episode?

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Yeah, Robert, as I listened to the episode before we released it, I realized that I made an association, an analogy that didn't sit well with me that I wanted to address here in this pre-podcast disclaimer. And oftentimes in our work, I do try to tell stories and I do try to make connections through metaphor and analogies. And with this podcast that you're about to listen to, I made a connection between parenting and listening to people in traditionally historically marginalized communities. And as I was listening to it, in some ways it felt like I was making a similarity between parents on this side and on the other side, white people, and then the kids on the parent side, and on the other side, the people of color. And I just really felt uncomfortable and didn't like that connection between parents, kids, white people, people of color. So, disclaimer, not my intent, and uh recognize the impact it might have. My hope was that I that I communicate in this podcast that listening means we don't always get a say. Listening means that we really do just have to listen and we don't always have to respond.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Awesome, Jimmy. Thank you for that clarification. And I'm gonna clarify something too. In this episode, I talk about the anti-fat movement, and I recognize because of the way that English is set up, it might sound like I'm talking about being upset with or shaming fat people. The anti-fat movement is a takeover or reclamation of the word fat. And so we hope that our listeners will dig into the anti-fat movement and try to understand what that means. And like what you said, just because I said it out loud doesn't mean that my intent and my impact are the same. And so when I'm speaking about the anti-fat movement, I'm talking about the movement that is anti-oppressive around body shaming um and and around uh body positivity that we're seeing sweeping the land and the work. So we hope that this helps a little bit when you're starting to listen to this podcast. If not, you know what to do. Always hit us up and send us that feedback. Otherwise, enjoy the episode. Welcome to the Beyond the Training podcast. Hey Jamie, how are you doing? I'm great. How are you, Robert? Quite well, quite well. As we begin all of our podcast episodes, why don't you tell me something good?

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Something good. If you're a longtime listener, you've probably heard this before, but I love, love, love the warmth, and I love that I can start waking up early in the morning and taking walks around the block and just enjoying the sun, birds chirping. Uh, I love getting my day started that way.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

What about you? Tell me something good, Robert.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Something good recently. We have our oldest who graduated from college with her undergrad degree, and she's already on to her uh master's degree, and so uh we're pretty proud of her and uh you know the work that she's doing to continue our legacy in this in this life. So uh really proud of her. Shout out to her.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Congratulations. Shout out to Robert's daughter.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Thank you very much for that. A number of times during or after trainings, folks who identify as white have been coming up to us, to me, and really expressing them. They feel like they're under attack. And it's never like, oh, you DEI guy, you're the one who's attacking me. It sometimes it's this DEI thing that makes me feel bad or is making me feel bad. And sometimes it is that other DEI person, not Jamie, not you, but other people that they have watched or heard from, or even you know, seen on TV or social media, pointing the finger, thumping them in the chest and saying, white people are to blame for where we are today. And that's been the name of the game for DEI for a lot of folks. And and there's this underlying theme of like, are white folk under attack? And you and I often have to say inside of a training, uh, we love white folk. There are a lot of white people in our lives that we're like, yeah, yeah, they're cool and we and we get along really well and we love them into our families or into our work. And so that's not how we present. And at the same time, I'm not sure what to do with that because when we keep continuing to show up in the spaces we are in, there's white folk in there. It's not like our we cater to only people of color or to only people with our uh marginalized racialized identities. We got white people in the work too, and we want to work with those folks. So I guess uh what's coming up for me is I'm not sure what to do with that idea that that white folk feel like they're under attack, especially the ones that are in our trainings. So I thought I'd ask, is that something that you've been seeing? And if you have, what do you think we should do when we continue to receive that?

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Yeah, I for sure see it. I notice it more on my social media news feeds than less in our trainings. What I see more come up that I believe is a close second to people feeling like they're under attack is um white men. This is I the DI stuff is not for me. It's not meant for me. So should I be in this space? Um and so I see that also showing up. So one, people feeling like they're under attack, and two, this is not for me. And in some ways, it comes from for some people, not the white people under attack, but for some people, the it's not for me, comes from a good intentions, but the impact is different. So the intentions of I don't want to join this space, and what I know about people of color, they've never had space to process. So I shouldn't come into this space because it's their safe space to process. Or um there's been some places where this is the nuance of it all, that some communities will say, don't do the work to us or for us. We should be doing it. And then sometimes white people, the dominant group, are like, Well, how do you want me to even enter this space? Absolutely. Not supposed to talk in the space you just told me. You want to, you don't want me to do the work you just told me. So what does an ally look like um in this space? So I see that coming up also, um, which is the the spectrum of engagement. And then there's people within the dominant group, white group that are all in. Um, and I know that's not what we're talking about today, but I do want to recognize that there for sure is a again a spectrum of where people see the value of diversity, equity, and inclusion and where they see their role in diversity, equity, and inclusion. And on one end of it, as you've brought up, is that this diversity, equity, and inclusion work is about pointing the finger at me. It's about telling me all the ways that I'm bad, that I've contributed to it, that I'm not doing a good enough job. And then that contributes to what we've heard in trainings is I feel like I'm always walking on eggshells.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Yeah. Well, let's let's go there. Uh what is the space or where is the space for people who identify as white in diversity, equity, and inclusion work, in anti-racist work, in liberation?

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Okay. So with the reason I I I appreciate I agree with that answer, and I over the last week and a half, two different folks have come to me and said, I've been told by that organization or by that work that I believe in that this is not the place for me. One person said, she's this is a person, a team member who identifies as white and female, uh, she wants to be in the anti-fatness work and work in an anti-racist way towards anti-fatness. And so she had been told by an anti-fatness and uh black liberation group, this is not the place for you here because not only are you white, you are thin. And we appreciate you giving us money to our cause, but because you're white, we need you to be quiet.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

And because you're thin.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

And because you're well, both of them. They said both this is a space for people who are non-white and non-skinny or non-thin for that matter. That was the first one. The second one, um, uh another team member who identifies as white um and has nothing to do with uh their body size in this particular sense, but they were told that because you um are white in this space, we need you to either not be here or just be silent, that you just sit and listen, not get engaged, not say anything out loud. And I hear that all the time, all the time, all the time, that folks don't say anything in the spaces because they don't know what to say because they don't want to be hushed. So A, you said everywhere. So B, how do we create that space or make sure that people know that they can be there? Because otherwise, I can understand why it would feel like you might be attacked because you're whiteness if you've been told to shut up and sit there.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yeah, and you know, I want to honor those people's perspectives that say you shouldn't be in this space. Is it the perspective I take? Not necessarily, but it does it devalue the other perspective, not necessarily. I'm trying to think of a parallel, and the first thing that came to mind for me is parenting. And as a parent, you want to be everywhere. And in some places you need to be everywhere, but the how is really important. So for example, your daughter that just graduated, you want to be available anytime they call you, she calls you, correct?

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Uh I don't know if I want that. Certainly before You want to be accessible. Accessible if she ever needs you. If she needs me, yes, okay, yes. If she needs me or my uh my wife, we want to be able to be there for her. Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

But you're not in all of the physical spaces she's.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Oh, for sure not, no. And you don't want to be right. I don't want to be a helicopter parent, as it were, always in her zone.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

And I'm assuming that's different with different ages and different settings and different contexts. And so this parallel that I'm trying to go with is it it's similar that with my kids, I have to understand that sometimes what they need from me is X, Y, and Z. And sometimes what they need from me is for me not to say anything to them, regardless of their age. Um, I could imagine when my kid is 22 and they call me and maybe they're struggling with um a relationship. What do they need from me in that moment? Do they need me to just listen? Do they need me to give them an answer? Do they need me to fly out there and pick them up? Um, and so through listening, potentially we can identify the needs of the group. And it may feel uncomfortable. As a parent, it will suck when my kid tells me they don't need me anymore. But I'm still there, ready and available. And so I wonder if it's similar that when people say I need you to be an ally, it doesn't mean that I need you to solve anything for me. It doesn't mean I I just maybe I maybe allyship for some people and your example is I just need you to show up and listen. To listen to our experiences. I don't need a response, I don't need you to go and do anything with it afterwards. Just listen to build empathy. Listen to know that this is my experience.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Okay. There's so many things that are floating through my head. One, what I hear you talking about are similar functions of really good relationship, right? So communicating one's needs, adhering to the needs that you're hearing, and being there for the person you're in relationship with. So I hear those things and I can draw that connection, even though we are both parents, I can draw that connection to relationships. And certainly white people have relationships with people who aren't white in anti-racist spaces and DEI spaces. I'm also though feeling like if we say that equity is everybody's responsibility and tell people that they need to be quiet and listen, it's gonna be really hard for them to understand what they're supposed to do when they're not in that space. So we interact with white folks who uh we are their only black or brown friend. We are the only person who can talk about what it's like to be a Mexican-American woman or a black dude or uh live in a minoritized, uh marginalized identity or space or family or whatever. And so without that, how would they learn? How would they engage? And there's only so much that Google or Safari or Internet Explorer, if that's still a thing, can teach. And so now I'm starting to have some empathetic moments, like, well, if I identified as white, I wouldn't know where I was supposed to be because sitting in the room and listening is one thing, but then I might then I might be just called a uh a purveyor, like I'm just a surveyor of oppression. And then if I'm just giving money, what is this around the saviorism piece? I'm just sitting in the room, or then if you tell me not to come to the to the cookout, like I'm not invited, then I'm like I'm over here doing my own thing and I'm not connected, I'm not proximate to community, which is what Mr. Robert and Jamie just said. Get proximate to those communities. You I don't know how you could win. It sounds like it's not a winnable situation.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

I as you said that, that's exactly what I was thinking, and you know this. Winning's not the goal.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

And I know that's not what you meant. And it um gosh. It makes me back to what you said around just being connected to community and when we think about empathy um a lot, it's the how do I need to show up in this space? It's not do I need to be in this space, but it's how do I need to show up in this space. And oftentimes the how we can't answer ourselves, we have to hear from community. And if community is saying, what I need from you in this space today is just to listen, we need to honor that. If the community is saying what we need from you is just give us donations, we need to honor that. What happens though is that I assume you need donations. I assume you need me to be quiet. And we've not asked community, how do you want me to show up in this space in service and support of you? That's where I think saviorism comes in. Um and some of those um appropriation moments come in because we don't center the needs of the community first, very similar to again back to my examples, um, and and even being a caretaker in the broadest sense, asking my older parents, what do you need from me to support you in this moment, versus just assuming that they need X, Y, and Z. But I I do believe that's one step that we often miss is how can I show up for you? And I don't know that anybody's asking that to anybody. Okay. As a I don't know that I've ever asked a white person, how can I show up for you in this space?

SPEAKER_00 15:56

I've done that a lot, but you had to check back to the hand holding episode that we talked about when we talked about that.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

You've asked white people how can I show up for you in this space?

SPEAKER_00 16:03

And I did it this morning, literally.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Oh wow. Can you tell us the story?

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Sure. Um, so in the nonprofit world, we often find ourselves in service to a community or a cause and wanting to stay in that work no matter what. And this particular person that I'm consulting with, uh, who I talked to this morning, wanted to vent, for lack of a better phrase, about how they had been treated by the leader who was actually black. And they had been told that they're not showing up the way that they should. They've been uh they felt like they weren't being communicated with appropriately, they weren't being included appropriately, that the whole thing was uh falling down and their whiteness was at the center of, or is at the center of these challenges. And the the the the black leader actually has said that, has said as much that white women, especially in this particular conversation, uh are problematic in this service space that they happen to be in. And so what she wanted to do, and now I'm thinking about my own role as the black dude. But as I've told y'all before, I hold the hands of people who identify as white really well through tough stuff. So I know that that is my role, I know that's what I do. I'm working through that.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

And well, you just said you're working through it, so I don't know that I'm working through it. When you mean you're working through it, you don't want to be in that role?

SPEAKER_00 17:35

No, if that's the role I need to be playing. It's a role I'm good at, it's a role I have skills for, and it's a role that people pay me handsomely to be in, and it works, right? Also, that in the conversation this morning I could say, so how would you like me to show up in this space? As a coach, as a consultant, as a black man who uh has a racialized identity that he looks through and sees the world through, uh, as a confidant, as a friend, what what is the what is the thing? Because while we were talking about communication, while we were talking about being in service to community, what was at the bottom of it was this white woman being told by a black woman and a group of others that she wasn't enough, despite her many efforts, to show up in the way that she thought that she was supposed to, and she wasn't really sure how she was supposed to do that, how she goes forward. So I did. I literally, how do you want me to show up? Because what I how I hold hands might be more aggressive or more passive or more active, depending upon the conversation, what it is that they want. So, yes, I do that from time to time.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

I I mean, as you name that, I've asked very similar questions. I know. Do you want me to coach you today? Do you want me to mentor you today? Do you want me to hold your hand? I would say for anybody and everybody, how do you want how do you need me how do you want me to show up for you today? Um, so I do ask that. I don't know that I've asked it in trainings though. Maybe the question has been, what do you need in this moment? Um and part of that is in the trainings, leaning in a little bit to helping people name what they need anyway for themselves. It's less about me, but what do you name what you need? And people struggle to just name their need. Um, and I'm curious what their response was, and do you believe that that's really what they needed? Or were they come so one, what was their response when you asked them that question?

SPEAKER_00 19:35

As a coach.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

As a coach. I I'm curious. I don't know this person, did they come to you as the black man to validate their experience?

SPEAKER_00 19:46

I now I'm thinking about it, I wish I'd asked, but it wasn't again, in terms of my how I show up, that was not gonna be a productive conversation, a productive question toward the end goal of being coached in that situation. It's an interesting question, absolutely, and it's certainly at play. Race and racialized identities are lenses that we look through in every moment of our work, whether we say it or not, and so I know it's there. But I did not lead with that today, this morning. And I usually don't because I also know I am that black guy. In much of the work that we do, just yesterday, we had a hundred people in a room, and I was the only dude that I would identify as black. I certainly was the most the darkest skinned person in the room uh who I would identify as male, absolutely. And that particular organization that we keep working with, I have not seen a person who's black and male in the weeks that we have been working with them. So, no, I stake the bag. I seen one.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

I was gonna say a few. I did, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

I saw one, uh, yes, so out of the hundreds, it's me and that dude. And that doesn't necessarily mean anything except for the fact that I recognize that I am the one that they might see all day, or that they might see in uh in a uh dressy business professional situation all day. And so I take that on, I recognize that's my role, and I'm pretty good at it, and so it's always there, and at the same time, that's something I'm working through. Is that is that my role? Because there are so many people out there who do the work that we do who say I'm not gonna hold white folks' hand, and they need to get their acts together on their own without me trying to tell you the story, my story, coaching you through it. And that I can imagine feels really lonely. Like, who do I turn to? If the people that are in this work, the DEI spaces don't want to tell me what to do, then what? Because I'm gonna get it wrong anyway, because I also hear through the media, through what I what some people are learning in school. I have have you ever I don't know if you've ever seen the curricula that says white people should feel bad for themselves. But if you hear the the folks on the radio talking in the internet, there there must be some books that are like real tough uh for people who identify as white to read. But I did, Jim, you had. Ever spoken for a minute, so I recognize that. I did have a friend who uh we were talking yesterday over tea. She said that her family is reading the graphic novel by Ibram Kendi, stamped from the beginning. Familiar. And her kids were feeling a little bit of guilt, a little bit of shame around their whiteness as a result of reading it. And I'm pretty sure that Ibram Kendi didn't want that, and I said as much. Like, I don't know that the intention is for your kids to feel guilty. What the intention is for them to understand that whiteness is real, whiteness is a privilege, and whiteness has definitely been the cause or the root of so much oppression. But they don't need to feel like, ugh, I gotta get out of the skin and do something else, because that is what we hear adults talking about. So it's out there. And one to person to one person, I think, is how we we can fix that, and all of our uh listeners fixing that too, but it sounds tough.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Yeah, I try to have empathy. I've said that a few times today for experiences that are not my own, and I I have told you that I'm reading the a book called White Rural Rage.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

White Rural Rage, okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

And it's reminded me of the out uh I'm gonna be really careful how I say this. That in the book I go back and forth from having an incredible amount of empathy for rural communities, their hospitals are being shuttered, they have to drive an hour and a half to get access to critical emergency care. Um, and the and the people that are shutting down these hospitals are big corporations where money is not being made, so we're moving out. Um I just saw uh something about a store that it sells items very cheaply, and they've found out for years and years and years they've been secretly, um, not even secretly, but covertly, I don't even know what the word is, overcharging people. And if you're not paying attention to every single thing, every time you go to the store and you're overcharged by five to ten dollars and you're not already making a lot of money, that's happening in rural communities where these stores mostly are. Um, so I'm I have a lot of empathy for what is happening to rural communities. And then the same time in the book, I'm like, your hate, the hate that is coming out, and this is studies and research and self-reported surveys, the hate that is coming out of those communities is also really, really hard to grapple with. Um and so when we think about our white people under attack, in some ways we're all being we're all under attack. Yeah. And the people with are letting the people without just duke it out and fight each other and point the finger at each other. That's right. You're the one that's draining the system. No, you're the one that's X, Y, and Z. Um and so in many ways, you know, it's um they just put us in a big bull bullpen together and they're sitting up top making millions and laughing about it.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Absolutely. I I the you ain't never said nothing truer than it's a haves and have-nots type of conversation situation, especially here in this country, but around the world, that the divisions between us are artificially controlled and that we are all but puppets on the strings, fighting each other, pointing each other out. And and certainly there are people who are uh who identify as white who who are part of those who are the puppeteers, but there are also people who are not white and they're a part of that same power structure, uh, benefiting from the have nots of those who are without, pointing at each other and hating on each other. Um and so it's so important to be pointing that out. And and I think what it comes a lot of what it comes down to is like if I've learned maybe that my racialized identity as a white person is connected to some evil stuff, then I don't know what to do with that. And that's my role, maybe even your rule, to say out loud, look, you are white. That's a thing. Here in this country, in most places, white skin means something. And you also have an opportunity to be marginalized or oppressed because of your intersectional identities across who you are in your experience. And so we all have a role to play to fight that oppression, and you need to find your way in it in your racialized identity. You can't just let that go and just not expect uh expect any of us to ignore that. You are white, it's just it's a part of who we are, and that doesn't absolve you from being in this work, you have to do the work, and so that's what we teach.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

And the work is recognizing that not everybody has access and opportunity in the same ways you might have. Sure. The work is recognizing that you get to walk into a room and not have to worry about what people are gonna think of you around biases or did you earn it? Um now on the other side, what how we've started this conversation is you walk into a DI space and are probably worried about a lot of other things. Do they think I'm racist? Do they think I um have all of this power and privilege? And so I I have a lot of empathy for that as well with people who have power and privilege when they enter a room, a space that is talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion. I can see it on people's faces. Sure. I can see the so shoulders tense, I can see the avoidance of eye contact with us as facilitators. Um, and some of that is people just processing. It's not necessarily an indication that they are tense or don't want to be there or walk on eggshells, but there are for sure people that I could tell avoid me at all costs when I walk into the room. As if I'm my whole role is to walk into a room and just point out everybody's biases and point out everybody's isms. Um, and we don't show up that way. And oftentimes after trainings, people will come up to us and say, Thank you so much. That was so great. Um, I really appreciate how you engaged. And at a previous podcast, we talked about is that enough? Um, but I I do believe that it's it's a ripple effect that it's important. Is it changing systems of oppression overnight? No. And everybody people have said, and we believe this to be true, you can't undo 400 plus years of racism in 40 hours of training.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Or yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Or in four hours of training by by any means. Um are white people under attack? Unfortunately, not unfortunately. Are white people under attack? Yes. Should they be? No. Should we all be held accountable for the power priv privilege that we have that contributes to oppression? Absolutely, myself included in that list. I have a lot of privileges. I have light-skinned privilege. There's a lot of privileges that I that I know I carry. Um I can walk into most spaces and maneuver most spaces with ease. Um, and it's not that I should feel guilty about that, but it is that I should be thinking about, you know what I learned about this other experience? And I don't know that this person would be able to walk in this room with ease. So how can I contribute to changing that? Sometimes it means I'm gonna move some chairs out of the way. Sometimes it means I'm going to connect with the community and say, is this space accessible? No. What do you need done differently? What do you need from me? Back to that question. And people might say, give us $200,000 so we can add X, Y, and Z. And I can say, I can't do that yet. Uh but um I I recognize that I have privilege. I try not to feel guilty about it. When it comes up, I remind myself that's not the intent of the privilege conversation. It's to recognize that I have things that not everybody has access to, and it's my role to make sure everybody has access and opportunity. Robert, what's the one thing you want to leave with our listeners today?

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Can I leave two things? Sure. So, because what you were talking about, we showed up in a training the other day, uh younger person than I am. Uh yeah, I was gonna say a young man, but I I don't know how old this person is. So uh young man came up to us at the end of a training yesterday, uh the other day, and thanked us for the way that we present. And I and he presents as a white person. What he said was he's very conservative views, and he wasn't really quite sure about what we were going to bring in.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

I meant to ask you follow-up about this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Because I didn't hear all that they said.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

I thought they said they grew up in a very conservative household.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

They said that too. I I took it as that's what they were trying to tell us is that because of my conservative views, and that's what I went on to say, uh, because they were raised that way, I came into this without with some judgments. That's what he said. I came into this with some judgments, and you both showed me something different. And I and he said, and he and I appreciate that. And I thought it was really interesting, especially because my own biases were so on high looking at this person. So I I uh assumed that that person identified as male, I assume that that person identified as white, um, they they said uh conservative, uh, and so I'm thinking about politics or maybe social conservatism. Uh they're taller than me, skinnier than me. So I have all these my biases are like, and the course because I'm reading um about a book about Derek White uh Derek Black right now, like I just that's what's on my mind. And so my biases are up, and then they go, and I appreciate that you did it differently and you showed me something that I wasn't expecting. I was like, oh one, thank goodness, and then two, we're doing that work. So, no, maybe I don't know what they do in that organization, but what I do know is that they might go home and say, Yeah, Jamie and Robert, not not that bad. Not not what I thought DEI was all about. And at this organization, when we do DEI, I'm not gonna frown or cross my arms. I'm gonna listen to what was taught that we're bringing through this organization. That's dope. That was dope.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

For sure was dope, and it was a brief training, and so I'm hopeful that the organization keeps having those conversations.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Yeah, especially for his sake, because I think he'll want to see that more and more, right? That it's it's all throughout. So that's one thing. Second thing, you already said that people, all of us, are under attack, and not by who we think we're under attack by, and that's the thing that I think we need to interrogate. So, those of you who are listening, interrogate where the places that are you are, the places you are, where's that power of oppression coming from? And if you are a part of it, then you have a role to play in undoing it. You get to decide what your role is going to be. And if someone's telling you to be quiet and sit in the corner or just give us your money, that might be it for that moment that that you might not belong to that organization the same way. But that's not the only organization that exists. And in fact, the two people that I talked to, that I was talking about at the top of the conversation today, I said, that's not the only place where people need to be working on an anti-fat, anti-racist platform. There are probably others. Or you could start your own. Um, I said to another one, I said, we've had white people in the anti-liber uh the liberation work, in the anti-racism, anti-oppression work forever. So it's not like uh it was just the black and brown people doing this work to get us to where we are today in this day and age. Certainly, we need y'all in this work. So if that's the place where they tell you you can't be or to be quiet, that's fine. Find another space. That's my mic drop right there.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

It's a great mic drop. Uh this has been a good conversation. It's been a dope conversation.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

I'm so hype, Reno.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Well, uh, thank you, Robert. Thank you to our listeners. This has been another episode of Beyond the Training podcast. Continue to reach out to us, give us your feedback. If there's a topic you want to discuss, let us know. Hit us up at impact at seven focus.com, and we'll see you the next time.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Peace.