Where Does Joy Fit When the Work Is Heavy?

Sometimes the trainer or educator will use different games and activities to instill a sense of humor, fun or even joy in the learning spaces.  Both for the experience of the participants as well as themselves.  During this episode, our hosts discuss if there is even a space for joy in the work greater inclusion, celebrating diversity and achieving equity.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to the Beyond the Training podcast. Hey Jamie, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:04

I'm great.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

How are you today? Also great. Also great. As we always do getting started with our podcast episodes, uh, how about you tell me something good?

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Yeah, uh I spent the entire day recently at a sunny, beautiful pool. And as I think about it, I don't maybe I looked at my phone once or twice the entire day, and I just felt good that day. I felt relaxed. So I'm hoping that I can have one more pool days, but more days where I uh I'm not next to my phone all the time.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

I'm I'm so glad that you're getting in pool days. Uh, it is the season. Tis the season for pool days. That's making me think about how privileged we are in this world. And uh, and I'm just imagining you chilling by the pool uh and not looking at your phone because uh you don't have a care in the world. I can only imagine that you had uh maybe a drink in your hand uh or some snacks or something like that. And I just I have this vote version uh in my brain about what that is for you, and and just it's a whole different tax bracket that I feel like I know what tax bracket you're in, and still it surprises me to think of you in that space. So uh if you if it was great for you, I love it for you. That's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Yeah, for sure, privileged. And um, to be clear listeners, I'm not doing this every weekend.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Something good for me. We just got to another birthday in our house. Uh, so our youngest is getting older, uh, and he's getting closer and closer to driving. And so we're we're talking about uh not only driving but uh jobs and you know, adult, not adult stuff, but like you know, getting closer and closer to adulting. So I when when our kids are thinking about adult stuff, that means that uh we're getting closer to empty nesting, and that's kind of a cool thing to be thinking about, looking forward to. I I don't want to be an empty nester on the pool deck. That's not something I'm interested in. However, that's in my future, and I won't have to worry about you know getting a kid from one place to another because I can be on the pool and I don't have to think about that. So that's a good thing that's coming up. Awesome. What are we talking about today? Well, you know, both of these shares make me think about joy and and the pleasantness of life. And you and I, in this work around diversity, equity, and inclusion, and trying to get organizations and people to make different decisions around their not only their intentions, but the impact that they might be able to have. Uh, you and I often commiserate. Even on this this pod, we we commiserate about the the things that are hard in our work. And I guess the question is where is their joy? Where's their space for joy in the work that we do? And maybe on the back end of that, is is this kind of the work that kind of we need to have joy in? You know, I wonder about our ancestors in the civil rights movement, our ancestors at Stonewall, our ancestors at uh Sand Creek uh to go way back. Uh when fighting for our people, where is there a space for joy? That's what I'm thinking about. And and certainly um most of our ancestors did not have pool days uh or think about empty nesting in the same way that we did. So I I guess that's it, maybe it's different for us than it is for them. What comes up for you and I'm thinking about or saying about joy?

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Well, I have a lot of thoughts, but I want to hear you first is answer your own question. Is there space for joy in this work?

SPEAKER_00 3:33

You know, what's interesting is that I tell people all the time that if you are not able to find positivity, if you're not able to get to your space where you can, I don't know if I use the word joyous, but something like that in your life, especially in your life, but also in your work, then it's gonna be really hard to do that. Now, when I coach, I often say you could also be at work and just your job be your job, you can be at work and that'd be the thing. When I'm coaching people who are in their purpose-driven work, though, I am talking about, well, what's the point? If you're not gonna enjoy this, if the if if the drive that you have and the and the effort that you're putting into doesn't elicit some kind of positive feeling in you, why in the world do it? Uh and so when I think about joy in this work, I think there is space, but it can be a chore, I think, to also add that to the list of things that you're trying to install in the work that you're doing. One, for other people or around other people, and then two, for yourself. Those that can be really hard and easy to just forget or to just leave behind. You know what? I'm fighting and I'm always fighting, and that's just what it's gonna be. And so this is where I'm going to be uh less joyous just because that's the nature of the job. That would be really easy. It's hard to go. I'm gonna find a place where I can have some heart smiling going on. It's possible though, it's possible. And I I have some ideas as to how that might be uh or where how you might do it. And so I hope today we give some folks uh a couple of things to check into to be able to incorporate that joy. So I heard you mention mission-driven work, and that if it's not mission-driven work, there's not there doesn't need to be joy or it's just a job, then right, and not every job I I we, I, I, I'll speak for me, I have been blessed to be in my mission, my personal mission, my personal purpose in my careers, um, almost since graduating college. Uh but yeah, actually, my first job out of college, first full-time job, was like, this is what I want to be doing for the rest of my life. That's I remember feeling that way. Uh, for a whole $38,000 a year, which I thought was just awesome. I I I loved that. That I told somebody the other day, and this is what brought me joy at that time, many, many almost two decades ago. Uh, you know, the the first job I was offered and the first job I took, the difference was about 12 grand. And so uh that was the difference between ramen every day and ramen when I wanted to have it. And I smile about that now because uh that's a ridiculous way to be looking at someone's finances. And at the same time, that was our case uh when when I was making that money. So I say all that to say that I have been blessed to be able to be in my personal mission since I started uh professional work, if you will. And so I have had the opportunity to work towards finding joy because it has been very purposeful for me in those jobs. But there are folks who are doing something that is just for the paycheck because they need it, uh, because that's where they they want to be, you know, that's where their skill set is, uh, or or that their circumstances allow them to be, and then they go and find joy other places. And so I certainly believe that if you can't find joy at work or don't want to, that's cool. Not everybody, every place has that.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

I'm now thinking, are you do you see a difference between joy and fun?

SPEAKER_00 7:15

No. U uh I know those are two different words, and so thank you to the Webster's dictionary to give us uh synonyms. I think joy is a deeper effect of installing fun, installing worth, um, and and maybe even purpose uh into the work that you're doing. For me, this is just Mr. Robert talking. I feel joy when I see the work having the impact that I'm hoping to have. But that's because in the work that I'm hoping to have, I'm hoping to save lives, right? So there's some heart smiling that happens for me when I know that a life has been touched in a positive way so that it might not be extinguished any earlier than it was supposed to be. There are some times when I get to skipping at work because of the work that I'm doing. It's not easy work and certainly dealing with adults. Have I ever told you that I don't like working with adults as much as I like working with kids? Have I ever told you that?

SPEAKER_02 8:19

So, and every time you say it, I'm like, well, this is awkward because I'm for sure an adult, but okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Yeah, so I used to, well, I just won't say what I used to say, but I will tell all of y'all I like working with kids and I miss it. And if there is a way for me uh to work with kids more often and and still be able to put food on the table more than ramen every day, uh, I would definitely do that. And the some of the joy that I find in my work is knowing that my working with you, Jamie, or adults who work with young people or impact the lives of young people has a ripple effect on those young people around the world. And that brings me joy. I just know that that ripple effect, and I can see it, I can I can see it, that's it's impacting. And so even though I don't get to tap the young minds anymore, um, like I used to in the classroom um or in the an after school program, I know that my work has an effect. And so I get to skip in sometimes when I'm I'm doing that work, I'm I'm going in, making the points, and fighting the good fight. And then I'm like, man, I'm I'm having a good time doing this. This is something that I'm I'm really good at and really proud of. So I'm just I think I'm just giving you the recipe for joy because that's what you're asking.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

I'm thinking about I'm gonna share one quick thing and then get us a little bit back closer to joy in the DI spaces in our training. Um so I'm gonna take us away for a moment. But my one of my first jobs, I worked at a tuxedo shop. It was for sure not mission-driven work.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

But I remember not for you, but it wasn't mission driven for you.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

For me.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Correct. Yeah, yes. But I remember having a lot of fun. And as I as you were sharing it, I was thinking about, well, I had a lot of fun and joy in that job. Um part of it was to your point earlier, what's happening outside that was able to allow me to come to work happy. Um, and also that I was around good people. Um, and so when we think about diversity, equity, and inclusion work, it's important to surround yourself with good people and however you're defining good people um or people that are invested in the work with you. Um I don't know that people were invested in the work in the tuxedo shop with me. Um, we had a good time together, which made the work easier.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

I still I think that applies. I I think there are there are so many people in the world who don't have someone, someone's who they see on a regular basis that help them to find joy or that help them to enjoy their time around each other. And so I think you're what you're what you're naming, no matter what the work is, you need that around you, you need joy in your in your life and in your space. And if it's certainly helpful if there are people around you also doing the same thing. You know, you were you were saying you wanted to kind of bring us back. This is the Beyond the Training podcast. And so inside the training, where is their space for joy? How are we creating that? And then outside, it's so crucial because sometimes, you know, we're talking about hard stuff. Sometimes we have to dig into microaggressions and bias and racism and sexism and xenophobia and dehumanization. And those are not inherently joyous things to talk about, to have to address. And so out of outside of said training, beyond that training, we definitely have to find spaces to hit the pool or to exercise or to engage with people who know the struggle that we're going through and believe in that work and us in that work and and want to uh help us to shine from the inside out. And and that's what I was saying earlier is that sometimes I'm I'm shining from the inside out in the training uh because I know the ripple effect. But if I if if I was doing work or when, better question, better statement, when I'm in a particular training and it's not fun, if there's no joy in that work. And there are times when I have that, and you and I have talked about there's sometimes and I'm just outside and I'm not even feeling it. I do have to turn to places in my world or in my work where I can find that joy. Because otherwise, bad things can happen. My my mental health is such that I need to be putting into my mental health positive affirmations, uh, opportunities for seeing the the worth and and joy in the morning type of stuff. Because otherwise, I won't want to get up and get it in the next day, you know?

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Yeah. I I appreciate what you said around in the training. We do need to come with uh an understanding of the intensity of the work that we're doing. That that we're it's you know, it's not I told somebody the other day we're not necessarily, you know, planting and picking flowers in the work. It's not easy work, it it's really, really hard work. And um it does require us to dig in and turn the mirror on ourselves and think about how am I contributing to racism, sexism, etc. Um, and that can be really, really hard. And it doesn't mean that then beyond the training that you carry this sense of guilt, shame with you 24-7. It it's it is finding the spaces that bring you joy and then reflecting on, oh, you know why I'm doing this work? Because not everybody gets the privilege that I get today to do X, Y, and Z. And so I want to keep doing the hard work to ensure that everybody has access and opportunity to what brings them joy. Um to you know, to the point of how we started this conversation and the privileges we have. And when I worked with young people, that's really to the point of mission-driven work, that's a lot of the reason why I started is it just like it to this day, it like breaks my heart when I see like kids sad. And I'm not trying to like take away all sadness from kids and um but it it always would just like yeah, impact me in different ways when I when I saw sadness in in young people's faces and uh um and uh for sure even my own kids. Um and so joy joy in the work allows us to remember what we're fighting for, what we're doing the work for. Um I do want to come back to the this idea of joy versus fun. I years ago I was working in education and it was a training with quite a large group of people, hundreds, and we were looking at student data. The facilitators tried to bring fun into this space, into the morning, the half morning, and they tried had a game around the student data and people were livid, myself included, because we were turning this really important data about how students were or were not performing, um, not not performing, how they were doing intern academically, and it was questions like which student group has the lowest rating on X, Y, and Z. And the facilitator was it was like a game show sort of. Um, and so there was this is where I don't see fun and joy shouldn't be a part of the work um to turn really, really sad and depressing data about how we're failing our students into like who knows how well, who knows best how much we are failing our students. And um, those of you who are listening to this podcast right now, you can't see Robert's facial reactions, but he does have this. I'm ready to ask a hundred questions.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Look, it is an inquisitive face. You're definitely naming that, yes. So I have the the the questions I have are whether or not gamifying an activity has worth or value. Um I I'm thinking about the times where I have, I was I was literally going through my Rolodex, uh my memory thinking, have I ever used sad stuff, sad data, bad data, or or just bad stories, and gamified it so that the audience, the the participants understood it better. And I really want to say I have. And so if if y'all are out there and you have seen me do that, uh send us a text, let me know, send us an email, uh, help me remember, uh to extend that conversation. That's that was one of the things that I was thinking about. And then and then two, Jamie, I'm thinking about as human beings with human brains that you know some of us don't do well in trainings and being talked at. There's there's a reason why you would gamify, I would gamify something like that. And even though it's sad or disappointing or even deplorable in how we're failing our students, that doesn't inherently mean that it doesn't fit. I just I think you might have had a horrible facilitator.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Uh I I I will tell you the uh at least 40% of the room was livid.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

But they're livid because it was a game, or they're livid because of what they were learning, and they and they themselves didn't know what to do emotionally with what it is they were learning.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Because we turned it into a game. I I you know, we came into this podcast and I was like, I don't know that we're gonna have any disagreements, but I think that here's our first disagreement. I don't think that we should gamify disparities.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

You're absolutely right. We totally disagree. I I think what I'm channeling though from you, so the uh just assuming because I think I know you what happens often when you gamify disparities is that you're cheapening the experience of people who are actually experiencing them, and then perhaps losing the impact of what those disparities mean in in real life. And some people don't understand those said those disparities and those said impacts if you just tell them that they exist. And so we have to, and I know you know this, we have to be able to tap into people's brains differently than to just lecture them here. We are on a podcast, lecturing them uh about what it is that's going on.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

We're saying the same thing, I believe I I think it doesn't have to be gamifying, and there's other ways that we can dig into the data without lecturing.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

I I would love to hear you name three. Okay, three feels intense. Three. I'm an intense kind of guy, you know.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

We're gonna present the data on the screen. We're not gonna read over the data for you. We want you at the table to take three to five minutes to discuss what do you see on the screen, what questions do you have around the data, and what do you think is contributing to the data? That's not a lecture. I'm sharing information, and you at your table are dialoguing around what you're processing through, or not even on the screen. The data is at your table. Please open the envelope with the data at your table. We encourage you, we want you to discuss these three questions. So there's two.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

That's sound like one personal. Okay, I'll give you personal reflection and shared reflection at your table. All right, that's two. All right.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Um, we want you to think about uh vision. What do you hope for the data to say about our young people? What do you hope? Great. Here's the data. Where's their differences? And how do we get closer to your vision that you wanted to see?

SPEAKER_00 20:17

That's why I like working with you, Jamie. That was pretty dope. I did not expect that one. I didn't expect me to go, oh, yeah, that's cool. I didn't expect that. That was pretty dope. And you know what's interesting about that one is it brings joy into the conversation. I absolutely that's why I think it's dope because it connects to our topic today. Absolutely. Are you still are you still trying to get me to three? That was three. No, that's great. I think that's great. And the for those of us who are educators, facilitators, training, training type folk in the room today, having a game, playing a game, giving folks the opportunity to score or progress or um challenge each other, you know, have some competition in the room, has its benefits and taps into a part of the brain, some people's brains in different ways. Now, again, back to the facilitator. I wonder how they set it up. I wonder if they knew who was in the room. I wonder how, like the whole thing, I would want to just be in the room. That's why I was making the face because I wanted to just I could just picture the room myself as the game show host, as it were, and be thinking about that. And I wondered too if I have ever made people feel like you and the 40% of the people in the room feel in delivering not great news uh in that way. So that's that's why the face.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

And you know, to be fair, there was a host of other things happening that people were bringing onto the space. Um, there was it was a white woman, older white woman facilitator um that some people had a lot of care and respect for, and some people didn't even know and were. Not interested. I don't maybe not interested. It's not the right word, but um there was we were just coming off a big reorg. There was a new leader. Um, and so people were already carrying stuff into the space. Um, for sure, not joy um in into the space, and that likely was just one more dig, one more reason, one more fill in the blank. Um and I still encourage our listeners to be incredibly cautious around where do you bring games into the space? Where do you gamifying is incredibly important? And ask yourself, is this the right time to have this game? What might be the unintended impact? What messages are we sending um uh consciously or unconsciously about um associating this information with a game? Is there other ways to present, to share, to process through this information that is not lecturing and maybe is not gamifying um the work and absolutely that's a bar.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Um, and so hopefully I can make sure that we cut that and share that uh beyond this particular podcast and add to it that that's why the privilege walk uh or the disparities walk activity that we see in so many diversity, equity, and inclusion uh trainings needs to be reconsidered. I'm not saying don't do it. What I'm saying is you heard what Jamie just said, think about it before you do it. What are the unintended impacts that might be had on the people in the room when you do that particular activity? I cringe every time I see the privilege walk. Uh, and it's in you know, different different variations that you might see it in different places. And I just have seen the people of color, the people for whom uh their identities have been marginalized or they're a part of a marginalized group. And it just that dig, as what you said, that that dig, you can see it on their bodies, and then taking the joy away from those participants, uh, even though they might get it, that ripple effect, they might get it. They totally understand that's actually not helping them to find joy beyond that training.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

Yeah, and and that's a great reflection for us in our own trainings is who gets to access joy in our um and back to you know what we talk about in terms of safe spread safe spaces and brave spaces, that we can't guarantee safety in our spaces. Um, and I think that um goes to yeah, just who gets access to joy and and fun in our spaces, and I believe which really underscores this whole podcast potentially is there should be joy in this work and everybody should have access to that joy. Easier said than done when we're talking about racism, when we're talking about transphobia, when we're talking about sexism, and and how do we allow everyone to access joy?

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Are you saying because everyone is a human, everyone should have access to joy? Yes. I'm pausing about that because I'm thinking about, and and I'm maybe even channeling some of y'all who are listening. Should racists have access to joy?

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Should sexists are racist because they don't have access to joy.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Oh, it is another bar. You get another one. That's that's good.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Okay, if not the only reason they're racist, there's power and there's privilege and there's all of these things, but hurt people hurt people.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Indeed. Indeed.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

I don't love myself, so why the heck would I love you?

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Yeah, for sure. I I I'm with that, I'm totally with that. And so I'll try to get on the everyone should have access to joy train. Uh, I'm not there yet, I'm still on the platform. What I I like to do, and I know you've seen this happen in and and when we have control of the room, sometimes we walk into someone's organization or uh we've set up a training and we don't necessarily have control of all the elements. Uh, I try to play music for people to to walk in, you know, or to come into the Zoom meeting with music. Um if the folks are there, I try to make sure that they are uh in in-person, you know, do we have name plates for them or the set up the space for them? Food, absolutely. And the reason that I do all of these things is is more so that they feel like we're there, we're ready for them, we're we're prepared for them. You this is a space we have considered you before you got here. As a human being, as an individual, we thought about you. And to be thought about as a human being is just an individual who contributes to the world that we're in, that's a big deal, I think. And I try to prepare that and and try to make sure that that opens the door to that accessing joy that you're just talking about. Um, you know, inclusion.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

That and you don't know who's walking into the room, so you might be giving food to a racist, which we then aligns with.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Just messed up my day. Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

You want people to have access to joy as well, so that they, especially in your trainings, are more open to the learning. For sure. So they're more open to challenging. Oh, maybe I shouldn't have thought that about that person or dang, I do have a lot of biases around. Joy has to be in the space. We've talked about it today, at least for ourselves. I hope that people have joy within and outside of the spaces, and that we're that for me, that's a lot of the work that we're doing. And so everybody has access to joy. Um, whatever joy means for that person, everybody has access to joy. And your joy doesn't have to be in opposition at the expense of others.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Yep. I think the the thing I would land on that we talked about today is that purpose driving towards one purpose can be a way towards accessing joy. It doesn't have to be, it's not a requisite in your job necessarily. And certainly as we get beyond the training, having that purpose uh and seeing those ripple effects can lead to where we access our own joy. Fabulous. This has been a great conversation, perhaps a joyous one, where we've been trying to move from intent to impact at the Beyond the Training podcast. If you have some questions about something we've talked about, or you want to engage on maybe an older podcast episode, send us an email at impact at seven focus.com or check us out on any of our socials, and we will see you next time.