Vulnerability Speaks Volumes (Even at Work)

In this episode our hosts demonstrate the kinds of vulnerability and transparency required to move "the needle" in diversity, equity and inclusion work and conversations.
While they may have an ongoing business relationship, even DEI Practitioners need to work on their skills, beyond the training spaces to make sure they are showing up as they intend, model behaviors they encourage, and move past good intentions, and leverage great impact.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

All right. Welcome back to the Beyond the Training podcast. Hey Jamie, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:06

I'm okay today. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Oh, there's something like a pause there. We might need to dig into that. I'm actually fabulous. It is a Friday. And so I'm on my Friday vibes. Uh, my son is playing basketball all over the nation. And so that's giving me the opportunity to travel. And maybe it'll be things to come because you know, if he could get paid to travel and play basketball instead of me paying for his travel, that would be awesome. So um, yeah, I'm feeling good. Friday vibes. Uh well, how about you? What's something good that's going on, even though you you're not as hyped as I am right now?

SPEAKER_01 0:42

You know, something good. Um I'm sitting on my porch reporting this podcast, and I love being outside. So that is bringing me a bit of joy this morning.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Awesome. Glad for that. Uh it's been a heat wave. It's summertime, it's been a heat wave all over the country. And so uh the fact that we have you have the ability to sit on your porch is really important because not everybody can right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Yeah. So for today's topic, um, if you don't mind, Robert, I hope that you and I can get a little bit vulnerable with each other and the people that will be listening to this um eventually. Um how does that feel for you to talk a little bit more candidly with each other um on this podcast today?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

So we're about to let people in on our business.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Okay. Well, um two things I'll say to that. One, I often say when we're in trainings that to forward diversity, equity, inclusion, justice, we we need to be more vulnerable and more transparent. That if I'm gonna be in my anti-oppressive spaces, I gotta do that more often and practice it, no matter how uncomfortable it might make me feel, because if nothing else, modeling in for others is gonna help us to change the culture. So I agree to get into that with you. And I'll also recognize that I was raised by people, uh, my mama and a whole bunch of other black women who said you don't tell your family business to in public. So I'm gonna be fighting some of that at the same time. Shout out to my mom and uh all my aunties.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Yeah, fair. And and I still have a bit of that philosophy too, even with my own family of we don't talk about what happens here to other people. Um, and um, to your point around modeling, and um, we don't have to share everything, right? So if we get to a place that doesn't feel good, that's okay. Um how does that feel?

SPEAKER_00 2:42

I appreciate that. I appreciate it. Let's do it, let's get into it.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

So interesting how we started the podcast. Um is part of what has prompted me wanting to really get you and I to talk about this. A lot is happening nationally and locally right now, um, and and even globally. Um a lot of polarization, a lot of um violence, a lot of harm is being caused. And um most nights before I go to bed, I read the news. Um, I've been subscribed to a few different um local and national out media outlets. Um and I don't know why that's part of my routine, but it's become part of my routine. And most nights I read something that is weighs heavy on my heart, um or read something that talks about um how DEI is bad and oh that's just a DEI higher, or um recently uh an acronym came out in opposition to D E I, um, which is MEI, uh, which stands for meritocracy, excellence, and intelligence. Um and so all of that weighs heavy on my heart. It's also been weighing heavy on my heart that you know, you don't see anybody saying um these marketing jobs are fake or we need to, you know, this big company just laid off all of their marketers.

unknown 4:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Um layoffs are happening, but um you know, there continues to be every week an example of companies um re-orging their entire DEI team or changing the names because they have to of their DI team legally, depending on what what state and and county they exist in. And so all of that weighs heavy on my heart and mind and um has been impacting how how I'm showing up. And and I want to also recognize that today you said you're fabulous. And so how do we work together? How can you and I continue to coexist in meaningful ways when maybe I'm coming into the spaces someday with a heavy heart and you're coming into spaces with a lot of joy. Um, and I I want you to have that joy, and I don't want my sadness to take away your joy, but I also don't want to fake sadness, and vice versa, if there's days that you're heavy and and I'm happy, I shared a lot just now. So thank you for letting me verbally process through um a lot.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

I that was a great share, and I'm taking it in, and I hope and I was actually taking notes not to take notes because I wanted to active listen. I wanted to be present in what you were sharing because it was so important and transparent. So if I don't mention something that you said, please uh forgive that part. Um I am also processing some of the things that you said. I I worry about you reading sad stuff, despicable stuff, even stuff that said it might it be trying to invalidate your work and and your worth before you go to bed, because you kind of need that sleep. We've talked on this pod before about how important your sleep is. And so if you're not getting good sleep because of something you read, um, I might suggest uh and even prescribe a couple of uh TikTok or Instagram videos of puppies or dogs or smiley babies or something like that. Um, in addition to what it is that you feel like you have to read. Uh, because that's my that is my um at night. If it's a good night, I'll watch the news, but not I won't be digging into my phone for um articles and stories. And certainly the news here is uh lightweight compared to I think some of the stuff that you're reading internationally. And then for sure I will find a great TikTok uh rabbit hole to fall down or um you know see what the the dads of Instagram are doing these days, because that lights me up and helps me get to sleep, helps me rest easy. When thinking about how you show up versus how I show up, I just because I am feeling good that I'm also communicating completely that not everything is good, right? Uh it's it is not the Lego movie everything is awesome all the time. I am having a good Friday right now, in this moment, presently, it's fabulous Friday. And I recognize the world is on fire, and there's a lot of stuff. You named a lot of the topics that are happening, and and I do worry. I am a worrier. That's another thing I got from my my aunties, is I worry a lot for sure. And so the things that you're naming and the things that you do name. So uh in the morning, we're gonna show up at a training and you're gonna go, Did you read that article? Did you see what they said? And I'm gonna worry about. Uh I know that stuff is out there and I'm not always seeking it out. And I actually appreciate it that you do, because then you'll say, Did you read that article? And I'll go, No, I didn't. And I'll go read it, and then I'll probably be pissed off, but then I'll share it with somebody and say, Hey, we should probably be reading this because of the work that we do. Uh actually, Jamie, if I'm being transparent since you are, I'll tell you often when you read that stuff and then you share it with me, that just pisses me off. And I end up being mad at that, not at you, but that the person who wrote it or the the video, the person that's in the video, all that stuff. So uh if you're trying to douse my joy, uh, then you know that's that does happen a little bit. But but but but I think it's also important to name that you and I are different people. And so I show up in my life space differently than you do. How I how I transmit what's going on in my life and in my head and in my heart is gonna be different. And I don't want you to change that because I what I receive from you when you're talking about uh what's on your heart and mind, that's a gift for me. We often say in our trainings that feedback is a gift, but just sharing at all um is a gift. We're just we're working with a a client of ours and talking about how often you don't even have a space to talk about what's on your heart and mind at work, at school, at church, at the grocery store. And that's actually what challenges so many people's mental health is that they don't have somebody to talk to. So if I can be a place where you're able to let off a little bit of what's on your heart and mind, maybe wearing weighing you down or uh things that are worrying you, I want to be that. And uh I would be honored, I am honored that you trust me enough to share those things. And I'm gonna tell you that yeah, you don't always you don't be bringing you don't bring me good news. Uh what is that? Is that the whiz? No bad news. Oh, I cannot remember where that was from. I know that's in my brain. Yeah, somebody's gonna have to send us a text and say uh where no bad news comes from, but I think it's the whiz. In any case, I do appreciate your vulnerability and I do appreciate your sharing because it helps me to do good in my work as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

So I have a lot of reactions to what you just shared. Um, but I'll start with how you just ended. Is it really okay that I bring those things to you if I'm dousing your joy? Is it fair to you? Or do you want me to temper how much I bring to you? Or do you want me to say, do you want me to talk about the article that I read last night, or do you not want me to talk about the articles?

SPEAKER_00 10:35

If you're attempting to douse my joy, I'd appreciate it if you didn't. If you're attempting to make sure that I'm up on what's going on that will affect me, my job, my family, my work, then yeah, definitely do that. It is okay to be educating me. I and I think you know this about me, and I think I've said this on the pod. I'm a firm believer in education. And I see education is not always what's happening in the classroom or in the training. Uh, it's something that happens when you're able to create a learning uh opportunity, learning space. And so when you share an article, when you share a thing that you've heard or learned or saw or whatever, that's an important piece of my education. And so, as long as that is your approach, that your intent is to help me learn uh so that I know more than I knew before, that's totally okay. Uh, I did go in and search for don't nobody bring me no bad news. It is the whiz. If you've never seen the whiz, I highly recommend it. And it's not that's not what I want. I don't, I'm not saying don't bring me no bad news. What I'm saying is recognize that it has an impact. And so if you know there, I'm I'm remembering now, you sent me a video. I want to say this woman uh from Texas who is anti-DEI. And uh I think you did you send me a video? I don't know how I got to her video. I got to her video link. Is that what you sent me as a video link? And I was like, all right, well, I'll watch it. And I watched it and I kid so I at first I put it on in the car, and then I watched it on my on my phone when I got home, and I was just seething at this woman, uh, whose name is uh is is escaping me. Um, I will find it here in just a moment. But all the things I don't know that we want to say the person's name.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

I don't want no lawsuits.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

I mean, I want that. I don't want a lawsuit, but I want the smoke. I would love for her to come on the pod and have a conversation with her. Because and here's why. So here's this is getting off of the topic that we're that we're came in to talk to today. But here's what I want you to hear me say is I was so upset with her. I disagree with just about everything that she said, and even more so because she identifies as a black woman from the South. So this woman could have been, might, she may be uh connected to my family. Could she definitely, if she showed up at the cookout, I would, you know, hey Auntie, what would you like? Uh I'll make you a plate, right? That she's she's that kind of persona. And then she says the things that she says uh about the work that I do, about the world that I believe in. And I was so upset with her. And then I was mad. I was like, uh, why are Jamie even entertaining any of this? Like, what is this even doing in my feed right now? It's gonna mess up my whole algorithm. And you and I have talked about this. That if all I do is listen to the pundits and the speakers who say the things about the world that I agree with, the way that I agree with it, if that's all I listen to, then I'm gonna miss an entire set of information, an entire world uh that I'm not gonna be able to be a part of or interact with. And I can't be an educator if I'm not educated or educating myself. And so again, it's a gift that you give me. And sometimes, you know, in in gift-giving culture, sometimes you don't get a good gift. You know, that's just what happens. Sometimes somebody doesn't give you something that you want. It's a gift, it's it's the thought that counts, Jamie. And so I think the thought uh behind your gift is uh to develop my education.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

One, you said, what's your intent? And we talk all the time about intent and impact both matter. And I hear you naming that the impact summit is like, damn, you're stealing my joy today. Darn, you're stealing my joy today. Um, and my intent is sometimes hey, this thing is happening that impacts us and our work to share with you. Sometimes my intent is this is bothering me, and I want to name that it's bothering me. Um for a bit for with my business partner. Um and so I wonder if for you and I, if it needs to be, if it does need to be, there's this thing, Robert, that I think is important to our work and it's weighing high on my mind. Do you want to talk about it right now? And then you get to opt in or opt out. And at least you know where I'm at. Or, hey Robert, there's this thing that I read last night that is really, really weighing on my mind. Um, can we talk about it? And you get to opt in or get to opt out. How does that feel versus me just coming in and saying, like, hey, there's this thing, and you're like, I didn't even want to be in that space today. Thanks, Jamie.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

What makes you think we're not already there? Like uh that's because we haven't had the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

I think I think maybe there's just been a lot of assumptions made on both of our parts, and it's worked for us maybe. Um, but it is this very this this this interesting component of when there's a lot of sadness and grief around us, but maybe I'm not directly impacted with that sadness and grief. How am I supposed to show up? Is it am I supposed to match your sadness? Am I supposed to hide my joy? Um and so I think that's part of what I what I think we want. I I want us, you and I, to figure out how we work together in terms of um I'll I'll say right now, Robert, to you never is my intent to steal your joy. And um I want you to continue to have joy even in my sadness.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

I appreciate that. And uh I've been operating under the assumption that you knew that if if I didn't want you to do something, I'd tell you um that I do answer your questions uh when you're when you're asking. So you asked Robert, should I do that? Yeah, give me the information because if you don't give me the information, how am I gonna have it? Um and at the same time, uh I'm gonna do what I can to be as honest and transparent with you as I can because I think that's uh uh that's how our our our relationship is going to work. So I'm not saying don't bring stuff to me, and I'm also saying don't don't ask permission to provide me something that you think I I would benefit from.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Okay, that okay, I received that. Um and because we've had that conversation, that feels right and good. But I wonder if for our listeners it it it does we need to be having the conversations with our colleagues and and saying and just saying when do you want me to ask for permission around topics? When do you want I mean we have a whole podcast around asking for permission around what we're wearing, um, asking for for permission to engage in conversations. And so I hear you saying that you've answered that question for me. I don't need to ask for permission as it relates to these topics.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Yes, and continue to be curious and inquisitive in the work that we're doing, right? So uh you those of you who are listening, uh, you know I'm an avid Denver Bronco fan. Uh, say what you will about my Bronco fandom. And uh I am, I always have been, as long as I can remember. And so there was one time in front of a whole bunch of people, uh, you and I had a conversation about whether or not you should talk stuff about uh our Denver Broncos. And that's the kind of that's the way I like our relationship. You're gonna go, well, does that bother you? And I go, yes. And you go, all right, well, now I'm gonna think differently about that. Rather than you go, am I can I ask you this question? Like, I just it doesn't feel right. It feels inauthentic in our relationship and the way that we're trying to work. Um, and certainly that it's not what we want to model. And this might feel like a stretch, but I told you that I would find this woman's name, Dr. Carol Swain, S-W-A-I-N. She has uh a lot of work that she's done talking about how DEI programs have damaged American society. And you know what's crazy about that? That's what's wild about that, Jamie, is that if you and I can't have tough conversations, if if you got to ask me all the time for my permission to talk about what is on your heart and your mind in our business and friendship relationships, that's damaging to American society, that you gotta hold on to stuff that may or may not land on me in a particular way, even though we were spending so much time together and we're working on sort towards such great high ideals.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

I don't know, it's damaging.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

That's what I'm that's wait, what are you saying?

SPEAKER_01 19:33

I don't think that that's damaging. I think that's being honoring honoring who you are and making sure that my actions don't unintentionally harm you.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

You holding back, keeping something that is on your heart and mind damages you. Like there's uh there's so much research on not being able to share oneself vulnerably, transparently, um, fully, being your authentic self kills people.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

For sure. And I I'm not saying that I am asking you, or uh I'm not offering that I should hold back all the time, but what I am offering is that it's it's good to be in communication. It's good to say, Are you okay to have this conversation right now? And that it is a give and take, and that it is me saying, This is heavy on my heart. I w I need somebody to talk about it with, and being okay with you saying I can't today. I don't have the capacity today to talk about X, Y, and Z. And me figuring out what to do with that. It's not it's unfair to you for me to just always unload stuff. And to be clear listeners, um while it weighs heavy on my heart, um, I still have a lot of joy. And Robert and I still, you know, are are doing well. And um this is not a call for help, a cry for help. Um but but it is a fascinating conversation of how we want to continue to show up for each other.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

The the thing that I'm saying is could be damaging though, Jamie, is that in this work together, if there's something, I don't want to be the reason why you can't or you don't feel like you can communicate what is necessary, what your part and mind feels is necessary. And I appreciate the cons the consent part, right? That what you're trying to do is say, hey Robert, can we have this conversation right now? To me, that delay is what is really necessary. You just told us all that last night you're reading on your phone or or wherever, uh news that is important to you. And then if I'm the first person not in your family that you see in the morning and you're like, yo, this is really going on. This is something you need to know. I don't want you to be um uh centering that because that's a probably stuff that I need to know. And B, that's what's on your mind. Because if I'm going to be aware of how we're gonna move in this in this relationship when we go in front of thousands of people, I need to know that's what's on your mind. And you probably Do need to let it out so that it doesn't control you and wring you from the inside out because so much of what is nasty in the world, like what Dr. Carol Swain has said about DEI programs, can harm you and be damaging not only to American society, but like to people individual, like individuals. And so I don't want that to be the case. Now, I also don't want you to douse my Denver Broncos every time they lose a game. At the same time, knowing that I know what because we had the conversation about the Denver Broncos the other day, now I know how you feel uh about football and about the Broncos, and that we have actually have uh elevated our relationship now that we can have that conversation. So much of what has been said about keeping your business to yourself. We started with talking about keeping family business inside the family home. What's private is private. That's that anti-DI DEI stuff that I don't subscribe to. I am transparent to a fault. I am vulnerable, probably also to a fault. And I think that's what is necessary because we've been holding back so much information about who it is that we are and what it is that we need. And so I don't want to censor that for you, Jamie. And that's that's really where this is this passion is coming from. I feel like I'm yelling into the microphone a little bit because I don't want you to censor something that is important to you in this work that we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Received. And I don't want my doomsday scrolling to to to kill your joy. Um, and you know, so now that we both know that idea about each other, we're gonna continue to push and pull and and um be mindful of how we're showing up for each other in support of the work.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Indeed.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

I do want to name it's interesting that I I want to name this for you. And um, if you if this is too vulnerable for you and you want to cut it out of the podcast, feel free.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Listeners will never know what's missing.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

You started by saying I'm worried about you and maybe you shouldn't be doing that at night. And it's interesting because I didn't come to this conversation asking for you to solve my problem. Um, but that's sort of where you went, and I know it's out of care and concern. Um and I still get a really good, typically seven to eight hours of sleep a night, even after my doomsday scrolling. Um, so just wanted to name that.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

So, first we need to rewind the tape because I did say I was worried about you, but I was offering something to add to your uh practice, your bedtime practice or your nighttime practice, uh, not trying to solve the problem for you. What I was saying is, man, I want you to get the sleep that you covet, and that I want, I would, I would want for you that your brain to have some, you know, cuddly positivity uh before you go to bed because of the brain science that's around that. I'm not trying to tell you don't do it. I just want you to also have some positivity before you, you know, you're put your your brain onto REM sleep. Um yeah, I'm not I'm not gonna solve it for you. That's that's a you thing. You you want to do that? That's great. And I actually happen to benefit because I learn about the stuff that I need to be reading or watching uh later on, uh not when I'm gonna have to go to bed.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Well, for those of you listening out here, if we keep this part in, rewind it and let us know.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah. Well, and uh so because you you were talking about the vulnerability, I'm a fixer. That was a shower thought I had today, this this morning. Um, I'm a fixer. I I like to solutionize uh and provide solutions, and I do that, yes, out of love and care, and also just out of habit. That's just something I have in my brain. Uh, take those things with a grain of salt because uh what you need is uh very clear to you. Uh and so I offer cuddly videos and and dad posts uh because I like them. And if I like it, then you might too. But that's not it for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Yeah, and and I while I do read the news at night and um it is often frustrating, I still do get a good amount of sleep um and wake up back up in the morning ready to tackle the day. You know, it's there's um value to be able to process through some of those readings with you and and with other colleagues. And so thank you for allowing me to do that. Thanks for allowing us to have this conversation so we can continue to show up for each other in ways that are meaningful and and matter, and um sure was wasn't a pretty conversation in terms of like we didn't have things all packaged and bowed up in a checklist of how to navigate these conversations. Um, but I'm grateful that we get to have them and get to model the work for others.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Indeed. Uh and so before we wrap, um before we wrap today's conversation, what would you say you want people to take from today's conversation? What should they either do or have as a tangible takeaway uh to put into their lives as they they go on about their business?

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Where you feel comfortable and and where you can um name how you're experiencing life for people.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

I'm gonna have to run that back and think about that myself. I feel like that was too deep for me to to have a rebuttal for. So I'm that's what I'm just taking on and hold on to it.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Robert doesn't have a rebuttal. Um yeah, I mean it it really aligns with what you said already um in the podcast today that if we can't show up as our authentic selves, what is that doing to us? And so where we can, let's name for people how we're experiencing life. And it doesn't mean that I want you to experience life that I that I want to take away your joy, it's just naming here's how here's how I am today for people.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

So here's my here's how I respond. Tangible takeaway. Find somebody who does for you what Jamie said that she's gonna do for me. Call it an accountability buddy, call it a mentor, a coach, a therapist, whatever you want to call it. Find somebody who will do that for you.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Here's the accountability that we're gonna provide for each other. We are gonna move beyond the how are you today? I'm good or I'm okay. And we're gonna work to try to find different descriptors of really how we're experiencing the day.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

I'm with it. Totally with it. Jamie, this has been a fabulous conversation. It uh it's different, a little different than what we've normally done. So I hope that we get some great feedback from our listeners about how this is landing on y'all and what you can do with it. And if you do want to send us some feedback, you can text the uh the podcast here, test text the show or send us an email at impact at seven-focus.com. Uh, this has been the Beyond the Training podcast. And as a matter of fact, we can bring these trainings to you. So if you want to learn more about having us come out for a keynote or a presentation of some sort in any of the topics in our pod or even more, definitely send us that same email at impact at seven focus.com or hit us up on any of our socials. We will respond there too. So, Instagram, LinkedIn, even the TikTok. So, thank you so much for being here. We will see you next time.