Why 'Assume Positive Intent' Can Backfire

No doubt you've heard the phrase, "when you assume, it makes an a** out of you and me."  That's about as popular as, "assume positive intent," especially in conversations about bias, equity and undoing oppression. 

In this episode, our hosts debate the merits of assuming positive intent, what the phrase means and the impact(s) of leaning into or away from our assumptions.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Beyond the Training podcast, where we move from good intention to really great impact. Hey Jamie, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Hey Robert. I am okay. Um last week was a fascinating week for me. Um I was pretty sick most of the week, as well as my kiddos. It's hard to be sick, and then it's hard to see your kids be sick. Super, super sad to want to do things for them and help them and not be able to. Um and it was um supposed to be a celebratory week. It was my birthday week. Um, so I was sick and didn't really get to celebrate, feeling much better. So I'm okay today. Arguing today. I know that was I shared many things just now.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

You did share many things. Um, I'm actually quite well um everything considering everything that's going on in life in general. And um, I was I'm interested in the fact that you said it was a fascinating week because that sounds miserable to me to miss my birthday. Number one, those of you who are here on the spot know how important my birthday is to me. And so to miss a birthday because I was feeling bad and and didn't get to celebrate, and then just to be sick in general, and then to have to be sick and my kid be sick. Well, my uh 15-year-old, he's a walking germ. Um, but that's different than just you know the kid not feeling well. He's just he just is, and so you use the word fascinating, so I just is I'm intrigued by that word.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Yeah, I I kept saying last week, like I will get to celebrate my birthday. It doesn't have to be on the day I can have a birthday month, and um there is many other sicknesses that are way worse than this, and so maybe fascinating was my attempt to remind myself that it could be worse, and this too shall pass. I would I likely would have not said fascinating in the midst of it last week, though.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

So no doubt about that. Yeah, um, yeah, birthday month, birthday week. Do you celebrate when you can celebrate your half birthday if you wanted to, you know, that that's a thing.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Celebrate life every day.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

You could. You absolutely could. That would be a lot of cake. Uh, but that's all right. I mean, who I'm not gonna knock your cake. And and also I have an auntie who's been 39 for like a decade or so. So that you could do that too. Yeah, for sure. Anyway, let's get into this conversation. Uh, it has been, I'm not gonna use the word fascinating, but it has been a really interesting uh several weeks uh since we last recorded. The the work continues in working towards realized equity and drive toward greater inclusion in in our communities, in the work, uh, in the in the organizations that we work with and we're supporting and partnering with. And so the when the work is continuing, I continue to hear this uh this phrase assume positive intent, especially when we're talking about bias, the implicit biases that exist in our world, or stereotypes that get utilized either by accident or even on purpose, um, or when when folks are on different political or social or political uh stances and they they say that there's a there's a challenge, there's some kind of conflict coming in. We shouldn't assume positive intent in that situation. I'm wondering Jamie, how do you respond when you hear that phrase, assume positive intent in the work that we do?

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Yeah, I have a facial response or an interfacial response, meaning um on the inside I'm like grinning and not a, oh, I love that statement kind of grinning, a grinning of that when people say that to me, it's an indication of where they are on their journey to be more inclusive, more equitable, et cetera. And so it's a it's a it's a weird grin of like, okay, I see where you're on your journey. And um then from there I immediately go to what's my relationship with this person? How much trust do we have? Is there an opportunity for me to talk about why that phrase could be harmful? It's harmful in many situations. Um so it's a bit of a grin and then a follow-up internally of what do I do next? What about for you?

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Uh I think I'm grinning too. Maybe we're grinning for the same reason. Uh I've been told that I don't have a great poker face. And so when I'm grinning at someone who has said, uh, maybe we should assume positive intent, I'm grinning because uh I know that that person doesn't know what I know. And then in fact, after they're done talking, I will say something to the effect of I don't assume positive intent because I know people. That's what I know. I know people, I know human beings, I know the fallibility, the imperfection of humanity, and therefore assuming positive intent actually puts me in the in the backseat, and I'm not uh no longer driving, no longer in control because I've just assumed that we're going in the right direction, and I know better than to do that. So I'm grinning because I'm either about to say something to them that it's gonna shock them or uh is going to make them feel like I have no positivity, no optimism in the world. Um, or that much like what you just described, Jamie, uh, we're not gonna have the same conversation that we thought we were gonna come here to have. So you have the this this grin. I'm imagining the Cheshire cat from Alice in Wonderland, in terms of the internal grin that you have. So you said that that you would then then have another conversation. So walk us through what does that conversation sound like when you're trying to have a conversation about race, gender, uh, sexual orientation, identity of some sort that is politicized or stereotyped. And that person wants you to assume that they have positive intent before saying something to them about who they are, um, being negative, being biased, uh, being whatever the ism that might connect there.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Happy to answer that. And before we do that and get there, I want us to explore why do we grin and why do we are we saying that we don't agree with the sentiment of assume positive intent?

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Well, agree. You can assume positive intent if you want to. I'm oh I, you know what I almost just said? I almost just said I'm smarter than that, and I and I I know how that sounds. And so I'm not smarter than you. I just been, I've been, I've been burned too many times because I'm assuming something in life, not just about a positive someone's positive intent. But I when I assume I am, well, you've heard that phrase. What uh what happens? What is it? What is the phrase? What happens when you assume? Aha, that's the phrase. What happens when you assume? Right. And and folks use those three first three letters and then the letter in the middle, and then the last two letters, uh, it makes a blank out of you and me. And so I don't want to do that. And I try not to, and I try not to assume positive intent because not everyone, not every situation is positive intent at the at the basis. And so it's not that I don't agree. I just want to don't want to live my life that way. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

So, what if somebody started? How would you react if somebody said, let's start from positive intent, or let's let me workshop this here for a second. Um, and not use the word assume. Um give me the benefit of the doubt that my intent was positive.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

I think you named something that'd be very important to that. What's the relationship? Have you earned my benefit, the benefit of the doubt? And that would be a really transparent conversation to have. Actually, Jamie, you have not earned the benefit of the doubt uh in our relationship. And I think that's what it is. That's what that's definitely what I'm thinking through, is that I don't know you like that. There's nothing that there's no record. You don't have a record with me that says that you've been working to mitigate the impacts of your implicit associations. There's nothing that tells me you are taking an anti-racist or an anti-pro anti-racist approach to your work. I don't even know if I haven't been able to ascertain your health equity lens or your equity lens in general. I'm you don't, you haven't earned it. And so I may not say that out loud because a lot of that coaching, a lot of that consultation, a lot of that challenge is going to be hard for someone, most folks, when they say assume, can we start with assuming positive intent? So I'll say to you, Jamie, I won't start with that. Even if someone asks me to, I'll say something to the effect of, well, let's actually talk a little bit more about what it is that you're thinking, uh, knowing that that's not something I'm gonna be able to give is that benefit.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Okay, let's workshop something here. We, you and I are on a hiring panel together.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

All right. And are we hiring for like a client-facing position, or is this an individual contributor as a leader? Who what are we hiring?

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Uh we're hiring for our company's growing and we're hiring for an operations manager.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

And we both go in, we both go in with the intent to hire an extremely qualified operations manager, one that brings different potential um racial identity, potential gender identity difference into our team. Um, can we agree on that's our intent?

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Great. Do you believe that intent is positive?

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

So we are both going in with positive intent.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Yes. There's an ellipsis with a question mark at the end of my yes, because I'm not I'm not sure I know where you're going. So I'm I'm I'm with you so far.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Oh learn something new every day. Um so we both have positive intents going into this. Okay. In the interview, I indicate that a particular candidate who meets both of those things that we named um is lacking one skill that I think would be important for our work, and we shouldn't hire that candidate. Okay. You believe that that is because of a bias that I have.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

And you call me out on that.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

I'm unlikely to call you in. And please continue.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Call me in on that. And I say, we both came in with the same intent here, Robert. How is that different than me saying assume positive intent, Robert?

SPEAKER_01 11:13

That's great. Okay, thank you for for walking me through that. What I would say, because you and I have this relationship, and it's much like what you were just saying about where you are in your journey, I'd say, well, Jamie, I know you have biases with regard to identities, certain identities. And therefore, even though you wanted to, you were trying to have positive intent, you also have a biased brain that is going to impact your decision making, impact the things that you say out loud, impact how we move in this hiring process. And so rather than assuming positive intent, uh, which will take me away from understanding how biases work, I'm not doing that and and expecting you, I'm expecting you to work through your biases, not well, you, Jamie. I'm I might be expecting you to understand that when I say maybe that's a bias that you're having uh that that conversation through, that thought process through, then you're gonna go, huh, I got some work to do on that. Uh that is more of what I'm expecting because you you and I have this positive intent that we're trying to start from. If I say that you assume, if I assume positive intent for you and you say something that I think is laden in your bias, then it's gonna be either disappointing for me or disappointing for you to have the conversation about why that might have happened. So, yes, we I would say we both are starting with positive intent, because I know you, because we've discussed it. Uh, we know what we're trying to do. And at the same time, both of us, not just you, Jamie, but both of us have biases and stereotypes that we work through, we're working through. And so even if we have positive intent at the beginning, our biased brains are going to demonstrate stereotype threat, confirmation bias, maybe even an affinity bias, depending on the identities of this person that uh we're looking at the office, office manager, operations man uh manager position. So that's why I want to assume that. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Yeah, and I wholeheartedly agree. Thank you for walking through that example with us that people go in with, but I have positive intent, and we just stick there and we don't challenge the biases that might impact our intent, that's when we don't actually get to the impact that we want to have. Seven focus, moving from intent to impact. And what you named there is what's really important for me in this conversation. And when you asked me how would I, what goes through my brain, um a couple of things as it relates to assuming positive intent. And in our example, intent matters. It's not that intent doesn't matter. When people come in with the intention of not having biases, great. That's very different than people coming in without the intention of mitigating their biases, of being thoughtful around their biases. So intent matters, positive intent matters, and impact matters just as much, if not more. Um, and it takes us challenging our biases, challenging how things are actually showing up, um, to really recognize and understand is our intent aligned with our impact? Um, and that's really what matters more than our intent. How close are we at reaching the impact we want to have?

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Yeah, I love I love where you're going there. And it would make it made me think of the fact that most of us aren't trying to mitigate the impacts of our biases. Most of us haven't dis haven't decided or uh agreed that implicit bias, unconscious bias is real and that we're operating. Uh yeah. What do you want to challenge?

SPEAKER_00 14:53

I would say that most not most. I will say more than maybe what you think people want to be conscious of their biases and want and action are two different things. So I would say that many people say, of course I don't have biases, and I don't want those to impact how I'm showing up. But I would I agree with you on is that most people don't actually take the actions to mitigate their biases.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Well, let's parse those two things though. I don't have biases and I don't want them to impact what I'm doing or how I'm moving, are two different things. If I say I don't have biases, that's a problem. Second, I I think that's a problem. Second, if I say I don't want my biases to impact what I'm doing, then you've at least recognized that it that they exist, that you have them.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

And that's what I'm saying. So I agree with you on the first point. Many people want to be thoughtful about the impact of their biases. Most people don't put in the work, take the action to ensure their biases don't impact their decisions and outcomes.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

I agree with the second part. First part, how many is many? You said you think many people do. How many really? Because and I think it would be interesting for this, uh for our listeners to know how long we've been doing this work and with how many people. So, Jamie, here's a three interview questions. How long have you been a practitioner who has been paying attention to the impacts of biases and unconscious uh associations?

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Most of my adult life.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

All right. And then, so that's decades. Yes. Okay. And then in let's say on an average, just shot in the dark, how many people do you think you interact with a year in most of your adult life when thinking about not how many people say out loud anything about bias, but just the amount of people you work with uh around the concept of unconscious or implicit bias?

SPEAKER_00 17:03

45%.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

45% of the people that you work with, you're interact talking with them about their biases. Is what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 17:10

I don't know that we're saying bias explicitly, and I think we are talking about how our actions impact people, and we're thinking about what's being programmed into us. I don't know that we're using all those words, but I do think people are being more and more thoughtful about their words and their actions and the impact it has on people.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Okay, so the reason I'm asking these questions is because it that got me to it. You're saying about almost half of the people that you're interacting with will acknowledge in some way, and maybe they're not using the same vocabulary words, but they'll acknowledge in some way that bias exists and that they have them, and then whether or not they're actually doing something on the other end. I that's a I I wish I was working with those people that you were working with. It it in the time that you and I have been partners in this work, I could not say that 45% of the folks that we interact with want to talk about or engage with uh their understanding of their own biases. They understand the concept of bias. Most people do, especially because we're really good educators, uh, really good trainers, really good consultants. They'll go, oh, okay, so my brain works in that way. You when you say that I don't have to read the red and white octagon at the crosswalk so that I can take my foot off of the gas and put it onto the brake, that I just do that implicitly. I understand that. Yeah, I totally get that. That's what folks do. They go, yeah, that totally makes sense academically. And then when we say, when you see Robert, who identifies as a black man, you automatically know that about him and how you're going to interact with him because of his black maleness, because you see the beard, the receding hairline, the dark skin, and you and and you identify what you think you know about blacks or African Americans or dudes who are black and African American at the same time. And then you're going to treat him as such, whether you like it or not. Folks will throw their hands up and go and say, no, no, that's not me. And and the majority, so certainly more than 55% of the folks that we interact with, just you and I, are in that camp and want us to assume positive intent.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

I think it's a perfect example of intent versus impact. My intent the intent of those people you just talked about is to not have their biases play out, show up. And the impact is that they do show up and play out because of the inaction that they are taking around it.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Yeah, but they don't also they also don't want to be biased. They they they're they don't want to be named as a person with a bias around blackness or uh race rather uh or gender. They're they're acting, these are the same folks that are actively ignoring, avoiding, avoiding is probably the better word, avoiding this concept of being labeled as biased toward or against a race, a gender, a religion, etc. Because the stomp sign doesn't have feelings. The stomp sign isn't gonna get you canceled. And at the same time, Jamie, when I if if I didn't have the implicit association pathway in my brain that tells me what to do at the stop sign or at the crosswalk, I'm gonna end up hurting somebody in the crosswalk or in the intersection the same way that if I ignore my implicit associations around black and male people or what I identify as black and male people, I'm gonna end up hurting somebody, but we just don't do it the same. We don't think about it the same way.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

I think what we're arguing over, I mean not arguing is the right word, is just how many people. And it comes back to that, you know, I have more hope sometimes. And I know I say all the time, hope is not a strategy. Um, but it allows me to not give up. Um, it allows me to still walk into trainings and believe that most people that are in our trainings have a positive intent of wanting to be a better human being, want to be more inclusive, want to be more equitable, want to leverage, acknowledge, uplift diversity more. And our goal is to help them take those intentions and have meaningful impact. And so because people still keep coming to our offerings, events, that makes me believe that there are many people who want to be thinking about their biases and take action. Now, whether they're not, you say that all the time as consultants. At the end of the day, what people do with what we give them is on them and and not us. Um, but I'm hopeful because people keep coming.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

I'm with you, and no one can see it but you, but I'm I'm smiling like the Cheshire cat right now because there's this this part of me that wants to argue, continue to argue this point. Um and I'm I'm like, I'm sure our listeners get tired of us arguing uh on the pod from time to time.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

But what are we gonna argue with? That are coming to our trainings just to check a box that people don't have good intentions when they come to our trainings.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

Absolutely. People are checking the the the the I went to their training box. Number one you had pessimistic coffee this morning. Maybe. As I said at the top of our uh conversation, I know people and and people do the best they can. Many, most people do the best they can, and and sometimes the best that you can do is operate out of your lizard brain. You're just running on sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

I have a question.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Yeah, you're just running on a lack of knowledge, a lack of education. And that's why we partner with you. That's that is why I'm in the room is to have help you be a partner in your education. And here's a point that I was gonna make with regard to arguing, and we don't have to go down this rabbit hole, but I'm gonna provide it anyway because why not? Students, people who are in the education system, K-12, or depending on what state you're in, first grade through 12th grade, right? They're not all there because they want to be. And at the same time, the information that they need, the information that we know that they need, we as educators, we as just people in society, we know that they need it, and that's why that education is compulsory. It's about it's a requirement that you go through grades one through 12 somehow uh and and demonstrate that you have this understanding, this information. But just because you're in the seat does not mean that you want that information, that you're trying to get that information, you're gonna do something with it intentionally later on. And I feel the exact same with the adults and young people who come to our sessions, that they're there. I'm there because we're in this together. Uh, either you've been told that you had to be there because your manager said so, your leader said so, or you're there because you want to learn something. And still you're going to believe that you are a good person and that there any of the feedback that you might get from the DEI guy, that black dude at the front of the room, uh, about how your brain is actually in more control of you than you are and your perception of the world is going to land awkwardly, and it's not going to be easy because it may be the first time or the second time that you've heard it, and and you want to be the captain of your own ship. And that's hard to believe that you might not be, because of how we are how we learn about our brains and how we learn about cognition, how we learn about how we think about what we think. And that's cool. I don't expect you to understand it. Uh not you, Jamie, but I don't expect our our students, our our partners in the education to understand it. And in fact, they're there because they don't. And it's my job, it's our job to help them understand it and use it to get to their great impact. That is why we do what we do.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

And I think it's such a beautiful example of why difference matters and why you and I co-facilitating together is impactful because I come in believing that people, most people want many people, want to be there and want to learn and build and grow, and you come in with a different perspective, and that's okay. And um yeah, I think that's just another example of it's okay to have differing views and perspectives and still produce meaningful outcomes and have an impact.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Yeah, there you are. We also find ourselves in agreeing at the same time that we have an argument.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

All right, Robert, what is one thing that you would want people to walk away with as we think about assume positive intents?

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Well, I think the thing that you named, I'm gonna give two because you just named something that's really important to underline. We are all different individual people. We have different experiences, different understandings of the world. And so if someone's coming to the conversation, a conversation, a concept, wanting us to assume positive intent on their behalf or just on the behalf of humanity, if you come to it from a different perspective, it doesn't mean that they're automatically wrong or that you are wrong. Um, it's actually uh an opportunity to learn from each other and to have the kind of conversation like we had today. Um I just wanted to underline that because I thought that was a really dope thing uh to note. I I will also say a takeaway for me is that perhaps assuming positive intent does not make a three-letter word out of you and me, as the as the comment is. Perhaps it just means that we have more than we need to talk about. And I think that's probably what I want to start to say when someone says something like, How why don't we just assume positive intent? Maybe I should say, instead of thinking about, instead of saying out loud, well, I don't because I know people, maybe they I can say, I think we have more that we need to talk about. And that might create a uh a more open space, a more engaging space than I don't because I know people. Because that that might shut the con that may be shutting conversations down. So that's that's my takeaway. What is the takeaway you have in today's conversation?

SPEAKER_00 27:17

I appreciate what you just said, and I'm processing through what might change for me as people say assume a positive intent. And it might be that I ask um, and how do you combine that with impact, or where does impact, um, the actual impact that one's intent has um play in? I'm still I'm gonna workshop that follow-up question, but a question that brings in impact and um and what I would share with our listeners is that intent matters as our example. Robert and I had positive intents going into hiring our operations manager. So we should be thinking about what's our intention here in this conversation. Maybe our intention is to make sure our biases don't show up. Maybe our intention is um to ensure that we're thinking about equity as we're giving pay increases. Intentions matter and the outcomes and the impact of our actions matter as well.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Yeah, I'm with that. Um I you said something that was making me think. And I'm out. So this has been a great conversation, Jamie. And I know we could do this all day long. And at the same time, we both have to go and do some stuff. And I want you to feel better, so not to be on the mic all day long. So this has been the Beyond the Training podcast. We so appreciate you all being here with us every time we post an episode. We also appreciate you texting the the pod and letting us know kind of how this is landing on you, or when those of you who reach out uh either social media or like in real life, we love seeing y'all out there in the world telling us about what you think about uh what you've been talking about and how you're applying. And so uh I continue to run into folks, Jamie, that they're like, man, I was listening to the podcast. And so I really appreciate that. If you've got some feedback and the different places that you're listening to this don't give you the opportunity, send us an email at impact at seven focus.com and we'll hit you back. We always are loving to hear how this is landing on you as we work from great intent to even greater impact. And so we will see you all next time.