What Celebrating Ramadan at Work Actually Looks Like

How do you make inclusion efforts 'stick'?  When the person or people who created or facilitate the activities and programming leave, how solid is the work for those who remain?
In this episode, our hosts talk about the challenge of keeping programs that celebrate differences, highlight communities and honor those who are often marginalized - going, especially after a transition of leadership or organizational priority.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Beyond the Training podcast. Hey Jamie, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:04

I'm doing well. I have my cup of tea. I've had some espresso already this morning. So I am fired up and ready to go. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:14

I'm glad that you're fired up. How's your mental health? You talked about your energy level, but how's your mental health?

SPEAKER_02 0:20

I have started to heard the recommendation of my wonderful husband. When I wake up in the middle, yes, when I wake up in the middle of the night and can't fall back asleep, I will listen to audiobooks. And that helps me fall back asleep. Um, and the audiobook I was listening to last night was more of a sort of motivational speech a bit um called The Mountain Is You by Brianna Weist Weist. So I like fall in and out of sleep. So I don't remember everything, and then I have to try to remember like what do I need to remind back to at what point did I fall asleep? But um I just remember falling asleep to listening to that last night and feeling um more confident in myself and my abilities, um not self-sabotaging myself, um, not comparing myself. And so I remember thinking going to bed feeling confident.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yeah. And the title of the book is The Mountain Is You?

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Yeah, I don't I was doing some reviews this morning. I haven't fully listened to it all that I would like to say everybody needs to go get this book. I I don't know that I would recommend it yet, but it let me going to sleep feeling confident last night. So nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Um shout out to your husband, shout out to your partner for giving you some advisement uh for your own benefit, your own health benefit.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Indeed. And the advisement really is to listen uh to audiobooks if you can't fall asleep. And really what it does is it helps get your mind off whatever your mind is racing through.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Um so how is your mental health?

SPEAKER_00 2:07

My mental health is good. It's good. I'm uh headed toward uh a lull, if you will, on projects and uh timelines, things that have been in my mental backpack for a long time. And so those are starting to be able to put them down. And the more I can put down, the more space there is, the more space there is, the more I can relax, the more I can relax, the more I'm able to be more creative and and think through things or just relax. Like I was just we were we were my wife and I, since we're talking about our partners, we were watching Christmas movies, uh, because it is that time of year. Depending on when you're listening to this, it might not be Christmas time, but it is Christmas time in our home. And so we're watching Hallmark movies or watching movie movies, and uh, I'm a big fan of Santa Claus, and therefore uh watching movies about Santa uh definitely is relaxing for me. And so I don't need an audiobook to fall asleep. I just need a little Hallmark movie to fall asleep, and that that's the state of relaxation that I'd like to get into. So I'm headed in the right direction.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

I love that Hallmark movies work for you.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

They do. Uh I could do a whole review. Maybe one day I'll I'll make my another podcast and review uh pop culture, and there'll be a whole section on Hallmark movies and Santa movies, and those are two different things and also the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Well, uh speaking of pop culture, have you watched Severance?

SPEAKER_00 3:30

No, I've seen the trailers. I'm not it I haven't seen enough of the trailers to excite me. Uh do you enjoy the show? Is that what you're asking?

SPEAKER_02 3:39

I don't enjoy, I don't know that is the right word because it's for sure not like a Hallmark movie.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

No, no.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

I wouldn't go to it to get feel good. And I want to see all the episodes. Well, I guess I could now, because they don't have any more episodes being released for another month. I want to see different people's different reactions to it and what they think it's trying to communicate. Do you under you know the premise of it? I do, yes. I don't fascinating is not the right word. I'm very intrigued about what they are potentially attempting to communicate about work and um the 40-hour work week and um so I um I maybe you should watch it and we should break it down and talk about that would be a great pod.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

I think I okay. Challenge accepted if if well let me ask a question and then we'll see the if. Have you uh seen Wicked in the theaters yet?

SPEAKER_02 4:39

We have not. We have seen Moana too, which has some diversity, equity, and inclusion wondering. Absolutely does.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Um, but no, we have not seen Wicked yet. We likely will see it when it comes to home TVs, home screens.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Okay, so if you promise to watch Wicked and use your DEI lens when you're watching it, um, so that we can discuss it, then I will watch Severance and do the same.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Oh well, I um plan to see Wicked, so easy, but I'm just saying it might not be for a little while until it comes to the home screen.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

This is what I'm saying. So then we have some time before we do it. And everybody heard it first that you just agreed to the challenge, yes?

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Yeah, but um what I'm trying to communicate it is it's not like a challenge, but okay, yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

We we agree. Just say challenge accepted.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Just that's all. Just challenge accepted is all I'm looking at. It just doesn't feel like a challenge to me, but challenge accepted.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

All right, that's what I needed. Cool. I have a challenge, uh Jamie, that I would love your consultation on. Are you good with that?

SPEAKER_02 5:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

So I was having a conversation with a friend the other day over uh coffee and chechepsa bread. And uh chechepsa bread is uh an Ethiopian bread. Uh it's not in Jera bread, but it's it's it's it's much more spicy, less sour. Tastes very good and even better with a little bit of maple syrup on it. Not what I came here to tell you about. Uh, but I was meeting uh my friend Marita, uh she's a friend of the pod. Marita, if you're listening, shout out to you for helping me think through this. So, Jamie, my challenge. I have been a part of inclusion work for a long, long time and in and around organizations, organizations that I work in or organizations that I'm consulting uh and in partnership with. And I always am concerned about how that work will continue when I walk away or when I leave. And I was telling her, I was telling Marita specifically, about celebrating Ramadan for the first time, um, uh, and how important it was, how impactful it was on the people who were able to not only break fast during an iftar, but also to pray at work uh and then to eat, uh, breaking bread, celebrating uh after uh the sun had set and after prayers had been prayed, how much life was given and how much appreciation uh for that opportunity was there. And and the the thing that was astounding for me is that I didn't really do a lot to make that happen. I moved a couple of pieces around, um, you know, put a couple of uh literally put a couple of chairs in place and and was there in support. But I I am not a practicing Muslim. I do not observe that faith. And and so it was really just on the behalf of folks who don't have the same resources and ability to do that stuff for themselves, you know, and and and so I was honored to be in that space and worried, very, very worried, that if I'm not there, it won't happen next year, that that kind of inclusion and even that kind of equity work won't exist if I'm not there to support it, to press on it, to say, don't forget about this group that continues to be pushed to the margins because we are so busy, because we are resource strapped, because we're those folks are not in the majority of the leadership spaces. And so I don't really know how to make it sticky. That's the question, that's the challenge that I have for you, for me, but I and I was talking to Marita about is how do we make that kind of work sticky? I don't is it a policy? Do we have an if tar policy that we will celebrate Ramadan, the breaking of fast, uh, when it comes around every year? Does that just need to be a um standard operating procedure? Or is it cultural and it just depends on how culture shifts? I don't really know how to make it sticky, and I'm really worried about that.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

Curious about the word sticky. Okay. Um, as someone who tends to try to be precise with their words, is that the right word that you're wanting to use?

SPEAKER_00 8:42

I'm using it on purpose. I don't know if it's the right word, but I am using it on purpose. Sticky meaning we're stuck with it, that it it doesn't go away just because I go away. Maritha said it's a part of your practice, it's integrated into your practice. So maybe integrated, but I want it to have lasting power. I think that's what I mean by sticky, that it has lasting power, that it lasts, it outlasts me. And I don't know how to do that with some things. There are some programs that you can put into policies or some practices you can put into policy um or standard operating procedures. I just don't know how that one. And there's actually, I could run you a list of activities, but because I know that you also support uh things like affinity groups or employee resource groups or or uh business resource groups that celebrate holidays and observe um events that are connected to culture and community, then you probably have a similar challenge and making sure that those things stay supported, stay a part of the organizations that you support.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

I still don't know that sticky is the right word. Um stickiness doesn't always stay, it dries out and the sticky note no longer sticks.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Ooh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Sticky traps are always stop working at some point because it dries out. It doesn't stick. Um, I really did appreciate what you had you offered, whatever your answer yourself, turning it into policy helps us get closer to consistent, foundational. Um, I don't know, you know, there's a few other words we potentially could use. Embedded is a word that we use a lot in the work of DE and I. How do we get things embedded into the work? And so I don't I I'm struggling with the word sticky, but I believe that I understand um how do we make sure that things that matter to employees stay around beyond leadership change, beyond changes in the organization.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at for sure.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

Think policy written into policy is helpful. Um, written into employee handbook is helpful. And I'll caveat that all of these things can change with leadership. One leader can come in and say, Oh, that's in the handbook. I don't think that should be in the handbook, and the right leader can remove it. Um so none of these things are a catch-all. Um, this will solve all of our problems. Other things that I would offer is it has to be showed as a desire um for employees and not just necessarily impact employee employees. Employees have to say, Yes, we want ERGs because they're valuable to me. Yes, we want ERGs while I don't attend them. I understand the impact that they have on my colleagues. And employees have to use their voice in employee voice surveys, in company-wide surveys to indicate here's what matters to me and my colleagues in the workplace. And not all we see this happening. Well, I'm gonna say something and I'm gonna then contradict myself.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Employee sentiment matters at companies. A lot of companies value employee voice and say, see, 70% of our employees say this is a valuable health benefit, so we need to keep it. With that being said, my contradiction to my own self is when we see uh return to office. Most employees don't want to return to the office, yeah, and yet companies are forcing them. So it's not an end-all be all for sure, as I named earlier, but I do think employee voice matters. So policy, I think, is great. Handbook, employee voice. How do those things feel for you?

SPEAKER_00 12:26

I I I totally agree with you. And I and I when you were talking about it, I was thinking about policy. How do how do I get Ramadan celebrations into the handbook? That's what I was first thinking. And then you said that about the leader might might look at that and go, no, um, we don't want to have that in the handbook. You know what doesn't change? Paying people. Like I what I I was thinking, I don't wonder if I've seen a standard operating procedure about paying staff. We do it. Uh it sometimes it happens, you know, pay period shift, um, how much people are paid it shifts. But there's this generalized idea that if people come to work, they get paid. They don't always get paid the same, they don't always get paid fairly, but we get we make sure that the checks land somewhere so that we have compensated them. I think there might even be a law about that, right? So, or not, I think, I know that there's a law about compensating uh for labor. Hashtag 13th Amendment. Anyway, um, I I wanted when thinking about that as you're saying that, and I'm like, okay, so how do I get into the handbook? Because yes, there may be leadership change, but as I heard you say, if the even if the leadership changes, there might be some employee sentiment. There might be some folks that are saying, no, no, no, this is really important, even if it doesn't affect me, uh, that could influence said leader. Because many leaders are influenced by their um employee sentiments. And certainly that's something that we would talk about your allyshift, those of you who identify as allies, how often are you talking about the marginalized group that you don't belong to, making sure that they have what it is that they need. So in this case, if you're not, if you're not Muslim, if you're not uh practicing uh is the in the Islamic faith and you know someone is, or that you are you have someone in your team who who would uh at work, how are you standing up for them? How are you putting that into your employee sentiment, which connects to pay, right? If employees didn't get paid, or if there's something being messed with their their money, their their money is funny, you're gonna hear about it. Leaders are gonna hear about it. It's gonna be not only an employee sentiment, but people are going to leave or make sure that you are on the channel five news. So I say all that to say that it's it's really good to think about. And that's the challenge that I'm working through is making inclusion work long enough with to withstand, or deep enough, embedded enough to withstand leadership change, um, deep enough, embedded enough to withstand if the most important things that are showing up in employee sentiments, and a lot of organizations, their employee sentiment surveys are about pay, um, retention, uh, job growth, you know, not necessarily did we celebrate uh a marginalized group or identity in our space. So even withstanding when when that doesn't happen. And I just don't know that I've done enough to make that happen, but what you've named so far are things that I'm taking note that I should be working on.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

How do you feel when people say pay is not the most important thing for people?

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Uh give me a little bit more. Who are the people that are saying that? And uh what is it in reference to?

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Well, we you just said that um if people weren't getting paid, there would, you know, be a revolt. And it reminded me that oftentimes I hear leaders in multiple organizations when employee sentiment comes up and says we want to get paid more, and then leaders will say, Well, research shows that that's actually not the most important factor.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

I agree that Maslow's hierarchy tells us if my food, shelter, safety is taken care of, there are other things that I'm more interested in. And we, you and I, have done enough research to find that the sense of belonging, um, a sense of uh being my authentic self is an important factor for a lot of job seekers and certainly new staff who come on when they get there. And that's because at that moment they're coming from a job or coming from a space where they haven't gotten the job yet, or they're not cemented into that organizational culture just yet. And so that's the thing that they're that's most present for them. So it if I am consulting in an organization where that is the case, that uh, you know, pay is not actually the most important thing, I would want to look deeper. Who are these people that are saying that? How much are they making? Uh, how consistently have they been getting paid what they've been getting paid? And what is that compared to the market? Where do they live? Because the zip code that you live in has an indication as to whether or not you can afford to live the way that you're living uh and make the money that you're making. And so if the organization maybe is considering raises uh merit increases, things of that nature, um, but it is not pacing with the amount of money it takes to live in that particular area, we're gonna actually start to hear about that because it will be untenable at some point. But let's say the in economics and the merit increases are on par with each other, then yeah, I can think about all these other things. So it depends. It is it's not a straight one-to-one when someone says that actually pay is not the most important. Take away somebody's pay and let's see what they talk about, is probably the thing that I would say.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

My inside response often, depending on who I'm talking to, I'll verbalize it, but is who's here volunteering their time?

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

So pay is the most important thing. It's not to say that there aren't really other important things as well, culture, many of the things you name. So maybe the question is not how do we make it sticky? How do we make this stuff as important as pay is?

SPEAKER_00 18:10

I don't know if that's too long a podcast episode, but that's that's a great question.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

How do we do it?

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Uh I'll tell you what I'm trying to do. I don't know how we do it. Um, I don't know whether that there is a formula just yet. What I am trying to do is tell stories about humanization and dehumanization, stories of inclusion and stories of exclusion and and to humanize the experience of the people who are supported by the work that we're trying to do. Because I believe, and I may not be right about this, but I just I've been around long enough to see this happen enough that I feel like this is the truth. Lowercase T truth. When I'm able to understand the human experience of someone who is real to me, like the person I know who is impacted by this, somebody I care about, somebody I want good things for, someone who I don't want bad things to happen to, because I care about them or I care about their family, then it's more, I am more likely to fight for them because I know them. They're real. They're not something I've read about, they're not something or someone that I I've seen on the news. They're in my life. And so the my exposure to them and then proximity to them is what is going to make me make better decisions. For example, I don't have any people in my life who have experienced uh in my in my intimate circle who have experienced uh homelessness uh in in a long time. Um there are certainly people in my family who have experienced homelessness, but not for decades. And it's been quite a while. And so the kind of poverty, the kind of systemic oppression that creates a situation where someone can't live in their home, can't have a home to live in and have uh a reliable shelter, I don't know what that is like intimately. And so it's very easy for me to not consider the dehumanization of those kinds of policies and practices and economic factors. So I need to get proximate to those folks. I need to to hear the stories and to know the folks that are either in danger of or experiencing home homelessness and the situations they're in. And so the work, Jamie, the answer to your question, the work that I do is to tell those stories and to hope that the decision makers, the people who will be here when I'm gone, believe that those stories have uh that those stories matter and they they have worth enough that they will fight just as hard as they do for their paycheck. But that's the challenge, though, is that makes me wonder what how many of the things that I fight for am I fighting for as much as I fight for my paycheck? What's interesting is I'm privileged enough that I don't have to fight for my paycheck. And so I have to think about that.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Well, we might have to fight for our paycheck, given the current administration here in a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

By whatever do you mean, Jamie?

SPEAKER_02 21:07

And uh the administration in 2025 and beyond, I believe will continue to attack DEI efforts, attack efforts to humanize people.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Yeah, hashtag agree.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

I also wonder if it's we need to do a better job at helping people understand that the quality of their paycheck is directly connected to the way that we humanize others. And when we think about capitalism and why CEOs make 30 times more than the person moving the widgets, because we don't humanize people. So the better we get at humanizing each other, the quality of your paycheck will be impacted. Hold on, let's just take a moment here to read a group of listeners. I said something. That Robert had a long pause for. We stumped Robert, if not only momentarily.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

I was going to say that was such a deep uh sentiment that I was trying to mull it over in my head to see what I thought the impact of that might be. That's that's what was happening there. So yes, I I wasn't stumped, I was just like, maybe stunned is is a better word, because I don't know what to do with that. That's that's really what happened. I believe what you just said is the antithesis to capitalism. The quality of your paycheck is deck is proportional to the amount of humanization we do in the work that you get your paycheck from. And immediately my first thought was not the CEOs, my first thought was police officers, correctional officers. And then I went to doctors and nurses, and then I went to teachers. And then you and you said CEOs, and so certainly that that makes sense as well. How to get folks to humanize so that the proportion of their the quality of their uh paycheck to the lives that they're not responsible for matters. There are not many things in this world that I don't know how to do, but that's one of them. I don't know how to do that.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Me either. Maybe that's our challenge for 2025.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

There are so many steps, Jamie, that we have to there are so many other things, not even steps, there are so many other things that we got to do before solving for the dehumanization of capitalism. I think we can certainly put some drops into that bucket. Uh, there are other buckets that are more close to us and are needing to be filled. Like we I want to make sure that the folks who celebrated Ramadan last year at their organization at work get a chance to. And that's not necessarily going to fight capitalism in the way that we're talking about it. It's a drop in the bucket toward that. Um, the humanity, the humanization that comes from it, the inclusion work. That's the stuff I want to make sure. And I'm more concerned with trying to figure out how to make the Iftar policy. And I you mentioned the the new uh US government administration coming in 2025. I don't know how difficult that's gonna be, but it might be really challenging to make it policy. But that's a challenge that I think I'm gonna lean into more in 2025.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Yes, to all that you said, and when I said maybe that's what we need to do in 2025, I meant mean you. I didn't mean like the world nationally. How are you and I think about in our work as we are working with people, helping people see the connection of those two future podcasts.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

I was thinking the future t-shirt. The quality of your paycheck is directly proportional to the amount of humanity in the work that you do, humanization in the work that you do.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

I like that t-shirt as well. Um, we we have we have t-shirt goals and plans, listeners, so be on the lookout in 2025 for um multiple ways to engage with us, including purchasing some merchandise um with some of Robert and Jamie's favorite one-liners. Robert, as we wrap up this podcast, the one thing I'm taking away from this conversation is I still have more work to do to ensure that we are humanizing every individual, that I'm still humanizing every individual in every interaction, including the person that I get mad at that cuts me off in the streets, um including the snarky person that's waiting on me. Um, I have there's a lot of reasons to not humanize the people in the world. And how do I make sure that I stay connected to my values of human humanization? Yeah, that's what I'm taking away from this conversation as we think about how to make it sticky.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

For sure. Uh what you just said reminded me. You remember uh way a few podcasts ago, podcast episodes ago, I said um one of my homies told me, said the the the phrase, you're not stuck in traffic, you are traffic. Do you remember me telling you about that? Uh I had I finally got permission to say their name. So that's that's my homie Marvin, who uh told me that, or said that uh, and so now I have given them the credit. They they didn't say that I had to give them credit, but I wanted to make sure they give them credit. So my homie homie Marvin says, You aren't stuck in traffic, you are traffic. We are traffic. And so there's that responsibility to do what you're talking about. That I certainly am going to take away uh from today's conversation. Another thing that I'm gonna take away from today's conversation is that there's some work that I've got to do to think about employee sentiments around inclusion work. I don't know enough yet on how to shift that from I want more money, I want more job opportunities, I want more opportunity to advance in my work as an employee sentiment to I want to celebrate, I want to humanize, I want to observe cultures that don't belong to me and communities that don't belong to me more. I know I do that, I put that in mind, but I even me, and I've just said that out loud, I need to put something in my employee sentiment that says more specifically make sure that we celebrate the iftar or that we have an iftar every Ramadan. I need to put that in my employee surveys too. So that's what I'm thinking about. This has been the Beyond the Training podcast where we move from really good intentions, the things that we're thinking about and wanting to do, to great impact and having a ripple effect of impact in our equity and inclusion work. And so we really appreciate you being here and we want to really hear your feedback. So if you got questions or challenges, or maybe you got a problem or practice you want to work with, work through, send us an email at impact at seven-focus.com or respond to the social media that we've got out there, um, or respond to the pod wherever you're listening to this on. Uh, so we'll get that and we'll talk about it and respond in our next episode. And until that time, we will see you all next time.