What I Learned About Bias in My First Real Training

In this episode we welcome a lifetime learner of diversity, equity and inclusion topics into the conversation to learn about her take on DEI training.
When learning and talking about bias training, she has some specific thoughts for DEI practitioners out there, looking to improve their impact, beyond their intent.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Beyond the Training Podcast. Hey Michaela, how are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:03

I'm good. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Very well. Here in just a moment, I'm gonna ask you about your mental health. Uh, but because folks are maybe new to this, I want to make sure to introduce that this is the Beyond the Training Podcast, where we move from really good intentions to even greater impact. And so we've invited you onto the pod to talk about going beyond DEI training. So we've got some questions for you there. But first, tell the people who you are, like our listeners who don't know who you are. Uh, what do you mean to or what do you do in the community? What's your name? How should we call you? Those things.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Um, my name is Michaela. Um, I currently graduated from the University of Nevada, Las Vegas this past May with a major in hospitality management with a minor in Spanish. Congrats. And thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Or Calicidades.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Thank you. Gracias.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

All right.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Uh from there, um, I was able to get promoted in my space in my community. And so I currently in Las Vegas, Nevada, and um, you know, get to support all of the different events and activities that are happening.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Awesome. Well, congratulations on all of that. Uh, it would be easy to assume where your mental health is because of all the good stuff you just said, but we always ask on this, or we try to ask as often as possible. How's your mental health?

SPEAKER_02 1:17

It's on the come up. It's on the come up. It's on the come up, yes. It's I cannot say that it is, you know, completely tarnished and at the bottom, but it's not at the peak where I could say that my mental health is amazing and great. Um, you know, everyone goes through their individual challenges every day. And so you take it day by day, minute by minute, hour by hour, however you want to look at it. And so um, I'm taking steps in order to start my new year off in the best way that I possibly can. Um, but I can also sit here and be truthful and say that it's not at the peak that it could be.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

That's real. And and on this pod, we're, if nothing else, transparent. So we appreciate that. Thank you very much. Um if you were to ask, my mental health is also on the come up. Um it's it's it's going pretty well. I am too thinking about this new year and thinking about you know how people make reservations, not reservations, what do they call it? Resolutions. New Year's resolutions, right? Uh, and so I have a lot of goals for the new year, but not resolution. I'm trying not to make them resolutions because I think I can achieve goals a lot better than hold on to resolutions. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Yeah, I feel like there's some obligations to resolutions that people don't feel are always attainable. And so then we go in a cycle of, oh, it was my resolution, but I just don't know if I can, you know, obtain this resolution. But I think goal has a different meaning um and a different impact on people.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

I agree. So these are goals that I have, or those are my goals. Okay. Um so those are goals. So though many of my goals are connected to my mental health. That's what that's what I'm getting at. And so we'll see how it goes. It's a long year ahead of us, right? Um, so the reason that we had you here as is as a professional in the world, somebody who is not a DEI trainer, but has received DEI trainings. Yes, we got at least two questions, and I'm sure there's gonna be follow-up questions for you. So I want to start with the positive. Are you ready?

SPEAKER_01 3:00

I'm ready.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

All right, so what has been the most impactful thing that you've either or learned in a DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion training, um, that you would share with us? The most impactful or or even favorite thing?

SPEAKER_02 3:13

I think the most impactful thing that I have been able to um see or undergo, I guess, um in a DI training is having to take tests to um look at my own personal biases that I didn't know. Um and so this is, you know, I'm I'm very young, I'm only 22, and so all of the DEI trainings that I've been in have been when I was a little bit younger, um, when I'm still learning things about myself, um, let alone what this diversity, equity, and inclusion world looks like from an outside perspective. Something that um, you know, was impactful for me is taking these um tests. I think it was like a Harvard study or something like that, where I have to look at my unconscious biases that I didn't know that I hold. And so it it makes it very interesting to see um, you know, what that looks like. And so I try to take that at least once a year because I'm I'm evolving, I'm changing every year. And so um the way that my unconscious biases change, or the way that um I try to outlook um at different people in um different environments in the world are evolving and changing as well. And so um from the beginning part when I took it the first time to now, I think that's the most impactful thing because I try to keep um keep it updated and keep keep it moving, keep learning things, and then you know, offer and open this opportunity up for other people. Um sending it to them. Um, you know, we talked about being in a professional world now, and so ensuring that the people around me are also being able to see their unconscious biases. Um, so this is a group effort to work towards um rather than an individual effort. Um, because I can't do it alone.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

I mean, that's wow, that's a long answer to the question. And I appreciate that. Even on the spot, we have talked about the Harvard Implicit Association Test, which I think that you're talking about, also known as Project Implicit. I think there's an episode, I'm pretty sure there's an episode that our listeners have heard me say, take a test. And you also mentioned take a test often. So you said once a year you try to do it.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

I try to I try to do it about once a year, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

So there are 13 categories in the Project Implicit, Harvard Implicit Association tests, and uh there are the things like race, gender, gender and career, firearms, religion. Are there any ones that you take in particular, or you just take all 13 of them every time?

SPEAKER_02 5:24

No, it depends on what my year looks like, right? So if I if I feel as if I'm in spaces that um, you know, race is a big topic, or gender is a big topic, or um gender in a career is a big topic, I try to cater it around what my my environment is looking like that year or that time, I guess that I, you know, wake up and say, you know what, I should I should take the test today. So it what wherever it is more catered to in my my space, in my living, and my environment is what I will take.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Okay. So whoever or whatever types of identities you're working with at the time, yes, that's how you decide which implicit association test to take.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

All right, that's interesting. Okay, so uh I have other follow-up questions um connected to the Harvard Implicit Association test, but for you named the biases that you have, like you have biases, you said that out loud.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

There are a lot of people who we interact with in our DEI trainings who are like, this bias thing either isn't real or I don't agree, or I don't have biases, but you sound like you understand how bias works and then you appreciate them enough to check into your own on a regular basis, like to get an inventory of them. So I'm curious as to like how'd you get there? Like, what was it that helped you to understand what is bias and why is it impactful?

SPEAKER_02 6:47

That's a that's a good question. Um when you live in the space, because I I live in the I live in the space where this is a it's a constant conversation. Um and so when it when you are growing up or living or continuously in a space where it's okay to say that you have biases, it's okay to um learn what they are, and it um it's okay to admit that they're there, and there's a comfort level in which I can speak on the biases or the judgments that I have of the world or of the people that I'm working with, and they're they're accepted and I'm able to talk through them and walk through them, then it's easier from this side to say, well, I have them, and I understand that I have them, and I understand that there is more to work towards, and I always have to work towards um things, and I'm not gonna always be perfect. I think that there are always going to be biases in my being of a body, but I think that's just how the world works, or at least that's how my mind works. I can't speak for everybody else. Um, and so I can I can admit that, and I think the first step is admitting it so you can become better and grow more, and we have such an evolved, evolving world that we you have to start here, you have to start from one level and then continue on. And so I'm trying to start at level one in my professional world because I keep saying I'm really young, and so I'm trying to move forward and continue on. But to answer your question, I live in a space and I grew up in a space.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

I and we we absolutely agree. This is the moment in the podcast episode that we will either keep and everybody will understand why we're keeping it or not. But it's probably about time to let our listeners know that this is a father-daughter podcast episode. And so when you say you live in the space, you literally live with a DEI practitioner in your home in your space. Quite literally, quite that's what you mean by okay. So to that end, to that end, well, I selfishly I probably would ask the question, or maybe people are wondering. If I was listening to this, I'd be like, oh yeah, so your dad told you to take the implicit association test. But as I'm trying to recall, I don't remember telling you to take them, but maybe No, I definitely sat in one of your trainings. Oh, because you said we took it. All right, so there's that. All right, so uh trying to get out of the selfish aggrandizing part of this uh because it's a pre oh let me just I just say this is a privilege, right? To be able to you on the pod in the space talking about being a DEI like uh trainee, learner, yes, and and then having an impact. But I definitely did not take ask you on to here for to interview you so that you could tell me how great I was. Quiet is kept, we talk about you on the pod. Uh and so this is the first time that you are uh on the pod and actually being able to speak for yourself. And so people now hearing about you and your experiences from you is gonna be good. But also, we we believe in this stuff, right? And so that's why it's in the house. Like you hear about it, you live in the space, as you say, because we believe in it. Your your mother and I and the people around us believe in this work.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

So it's hard for me to ask the question, how did you learn that? Because then the answer is I know the answer to that question. You were taught that. But I guess that's I think I still will kind of ask a question on that. Like, you don't live only at our home, you don't live only um under my wing, as it were. And so there's uh any number of social media or regular like non-social media that says that this conversation around bias is sensitive or it's woke or it's um uh political.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

And so how do you in in 22 years, how have you been able to avoid that or disagree with that? Like, what is your interplay with the naysayers around bias?

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Um, I think I am a person who will, you know, I I take what I learn and I regurgitate it out to other people. Okay. So um and as you are great. I hope you know that.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Thank you. I'll take it. Let me wait, let me Leo Spirit received. You are you are great.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Um, but there are times and moments that, you know, growing up in my 22 years, is I see something or someone says something, and I I come to you and mom, and I say, This person said A, B, and C, and we walk through it and we talk about it. So then when it happens again, then I have a response. I have um, I feel educated in order to respond to that. Um, and even now, you know, going on to other DEI trainings that I you have to take in my professional world, there's a there's a way that I kind of walk into these trainings. There's um a feeling that I I already have. And, you know, if it's not my dad's training, well, here we go. We'll we'll see how this goes. Um and so I don't want to say that, you know, they don't amount to what you say, but they don't they don't amount to what to what your trainings are. And so um, I don't know if they're much naysayers, but I don't think that the people that I've been in DEI trainings with or who are um training me or supposed to be training me dive deep enough into the conversation in which that they're they should be having um because I think that they're also scared. And so they stay on the surface level. And so I am a person that knows that I want to go a little bit deeper. Let's see how far I can go in this space, because that's where I've I've learned the deeper you go, the more impact that it has. If we stay on this surface level, then we're not gonna get anywhere. We're all gonna be like, okay, this is another DEI training that I'm required to take every year, and so I'm gonna sit here for the hour and a half or however long I have to sit here, and then I'm gonna go back to work, and we're all gonna say, Whoop-de-doo-wah, I did it. Here's my certificate, right? But now that you have me in the space, I'm gonna see how far I can push this and maybe make the people around me uncomfortable or make you as a trainer uncomfortable. But if you're gonna train me, then you should learn that it's gonna have to be like this. And DEI is not a surface level topic. Um and um, I think that you know, in my last most recent DEI training, that's exactly what happened as I started opening Pandora's boxes that people weren't ready for, and people's feelings got hurt, and uncomfortableness was in the space.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Oh, yeah. Are you allowed to talk about it or is that gonna put people on blast?

SPEAKER_02 13:00

No, I don't think so, actually.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

All right, so what question did you ask that made people uncomfortable in the DEI?

SPEAKER_02 13:05

So the the person I the one of the questions that I asked is we were talking about um privilege, and somebody said, I think that it's a privilege to wake up every morning. And so someone else was like, No, that's a blessing, not a privilege. And so then I, you know, had to, well, what makes it a blessing versus a privilege? And what, you know, what do you why do you get to say that, or why do you get to tell somebody else that it's a blessing and not a privilege? To them, this may be a privilege. You don't know what what they're going through or what um experiences or backgrounds that they have. So then we had to talk about, you know, what is your privilege and what is your background? And so then um the trainer was saying, Well, I'm I'm a white American woman. I said, Aha. Let's continue on, let's keep going. And so then I had to ask the trainer, do you think that it's a blessing or a privilege? And so then she also was like, No, I think it's a blessing, and I don't I wouldn't consider this a a privilege. And so then I said, Okay, let's talk start talking about your privilege. I think I became the trainer for about five minutes, and I think they had to rally it in because we were we were gonna go on. So um we had that conversation, and then they tried to do the um A versus B who likes cats versus dogs, who likes spaghetti versus Alfredo, okay, um, you know, examples and things like that. And so then they started to get into the nitty-gritty, and so uh at some point, um, because of the political space that we are in, um, they asked people to stand um when talking about their political stance. And so um, there were not many um people who identify as Republican in the space.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Wait, so pause, wait. This is a DEI training. Yes, like DEI 101.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Okay. And the trainer, the person facilitating, said for those of you who are Republican, please stand. Please stand or not. Right. And then Democrat or not, and then independent or not, or some some version of that.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

Yep, yep, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

So this is just like disclaimer. Um, I needed a record scratch. Maybe in post, I'll put this in there. A record scratch. First, don't do that. Those of you who are out there listening to this, I'm gonna look dead at the camera. Don't do that. Don't don't do that. On a one-on-one, I understand cats versus dogs.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

I understand um ketchup versus mustard, right? Maybe even McDonald's versus In N Out.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Right. Absolutely, 1,000 people.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

I'm with you on that. Uh but something is as sensitive as politics, I can't imagine what happened in that room. And that's I just so that's why we say guard against it. It's not impossible to do, but if you haven't established a relationship, if you haven't set boundaries and/or ground rules in the space, you better be really good at at this training thing because what might come next. I hope I'm hoping I'm about to hear what might come next. What might come next is not good for anybody in the space. So please continue. Thank you for the uh opportunity to put that disclaimer out there.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

You're welcome. So, but so I also in disclaimer, this isn't the first one. So we we were, you know, we went through the surface level things. And so then we talked about um having kids versus not having kids. Like, would you rather kids in your home or not have kids in your home? Um, did you grow up in a low-income house versus not low-income house? And so we're we're really putting people out here. Yeah, like, and you know, you could see people are like, hey, where is this going? I guess I have to. And so then the last one was this political, where do you stand, you know, politically? And some people were like, should we be having this conversation? This is okay. So I'm sitting there, I'm like, you know, I'm sitting at the front of the room, like, uh, I don't remember this being like uh something we usually do. And so she was if you're Republican, I think three, maybe four people stood. And you know, they should they should be proud in what they stand for, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Stand on your business.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Um, and so then the trainer continues to say, and see, this is the problem we have in the world. Okay, you can sit back down. What? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Wait, what?

SPEAKER_00 17:09

So there are three people who identify as Republican in the room of 20, 30 people.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

And this was before after the Democrats stood up.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

This is after.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

This is after the Democrats, so Democrats are majority of the people, probably.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Democrats, and then we have the independent and the Republicans are last.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

All right, and so then three people out of the group and they're last stood up.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

And then the trainer says, This is the problem we have.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

And this is the problem we have. And then I think she one of the questions was like, Are you proud to be a Republican? And this person was like, Yes, I'm very proud to be uh a Republican. And I stand on my beliefs and I stand for you know what the Republicans stand for. And then she said, and that's the problem we have in this world. And then she was like, Okay, we can sit down and we're gonna move on to the next slide. And so the guy who was like, Yeah, I'm very proud to be a Republican, he's like, uh, oh my goodness, it's kind of crazy. It's wild.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Very wild. And and I'm sorry. So if you're one of the three people in the room, uh I'm sorry that this happened to you. If you're listening to the pod, welcome to the pod. Um, it's really unfortunate. And and and Jamie and I have talked about this on the Beyond the Training podcast a number of times. There are a lot of DEI practitioners who are doing a disservice in this work by leaving people hanging, by treating them as uh uh playthings to just be you know tossed around like made examples of. And there are lots of great examples, maybe if I'm digging way into deep into this trainer's mindset that there's an opportunity to talk about the mathematical minorities or majorities, to be able to talk about how uh even in the room there's diversity. And what is diversity, depending on how they defined it, right? Those are two opportunities I see in that space. But just with the context that you've given us here, there's so much danger in leaving somebody hanging like that, especially asking them to identify themselves. And I hope that maybe at least she was like, Thank you for participating in this activity so that people know that vulnerability is appreciated. No, no gratitude whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

No. I mean, she did preface the training, you know, this is a safe space, no judgment. But it's not a safe space. But that was complete judgment. So then me being me had to raise my hand and I was like, is there a reason you decided to call them out?

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

And do you understand the impact that you might have just put on those three individuals? And so the trainer was like, Oh, I didn't mean anything by it. It wasn't like that. Oh I just want to move on. Maybe it was like a five-minute bathroom break.

unknown 19:37

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

And so then we took a five-minute bathroom break.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

And so then again, there's another intent versus uh impact opportunity that you were trying to teach as the person in the class.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

In the class, right.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

And it was uh we went to bathroom breaks, so we didn't get to deal with it.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

We did not.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Wow. Well, as we have said on this file before, there are a number of people who just uh are making a bad name, even with great intention, the impact that some of us have is horrible. And it can be really horrible. And so I feel for not just the three people in the class, but also uh everybody, because then then you see three of your colleagues uh ostensibly being ostracized or possibly embarrassed. And and when I'm thinking though, this is uh I'm in my trainer brain, like immediately, if for some reason I've set up this room to mathematically minoritize somebody, which is bananas, like because it's kind of anti to what you're supposed to be doing. But let's say I did it because I had a point to prove. Yeah, the point to be proving on the other end is a diversity. Yes, difference is diversity, and look at the differences in the room. Second, even when there is this diversity in the room, we can be thinking as an organization, how do we leverage this? How do we celebrate this? How do we conclude folks that are on the different uh political spectrums than we are? Yeah, and then we talk about that. Like now we're gonna have that conversation.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Um, and and maybe even too, if are you proud of your uh political affiliation, then um, what are things that we can learn from your political affiliation? What do you think we should know? Or where do you feel belonging? You know, it's some like one of the questions I'm gonna ask you um uh about. And so there's something, there are always opportunities there so that you're not ostracizing somebody, anybody, because there it could work in other different ways, right? Yeah. If you identify as this uh racial or ethnic identity, if you were raised in a single parent or blended family home, you know, you uh there's there's the poverty porn that happens where we just dance people in front of the room and say, look at all these poor, unfortunate souls. Uh all due respect to Disney. And and we don't do anything with that.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

We just leave people hanging. And that is what gives DEI a bad name, a bad taste in people's mouth. Be someone will go home and go, see what they did? They just created me a lot.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

And then you don't want you don't want to go to another DEI training. That Completely turns you off, which is unfortunate.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

And I think too, when when you're training, you have to understand the training. Um, most of the training they were reading off of a piece of paper. Uh so there's two trainers are reading off of this piece of paper. And I get that, you know, we have a standard in our company, and so you have to stay within the standard, but I don't one, I don't think that was part of the standard.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

No, well, maybe maybe that's how they do it.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Well, then we that's a whole other conversation we've got to have. But you have to understand it because if you're not understanding it, then you do leave people hanging like this, and then you don't know where to go, or when people ask you difficult questions, then you sit there with the mouth with your mouth open and you're not sure where to go from there. And I'm a person that will leave you with your mouth open because you don't know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah. That's wild. It's it's not unheard of, but that's wild. And that's and and that's I think what you're saying, you gotta know, you gotta know what you're talking about. Yeah, you gotta live it, you know? And and diversity, equity, inclusion can be hard to live, you know, to to have more than just be your job.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Um and even with great intentions, you if you're not living it, if you're not breathing it, if it's not a part of who you are, then it's hard to teach other people to have that, you know. It's specifically academic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

And I think word actions, actions be harder than words, right? And so I think that I I definitely agree that it's when you're just trying to speak on something that you've you haven't lived or you haven't experienced, then that's really hard.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

If you you know, to the to the point of the trainer, she's a white woman who immigrated from Sweden. Yeah. Um, and so being an immigrant is the most diverse that she can get, but then she holds that and you know, uses that against the the outliers, I guess. And so, oh yes, I'm I'm from Sweden, so um, I could fit in this immigration box because I I am an immigrant, but also I look like I'm a white American woman, so I can pass by this. Um, and so she kind of used that. I was like, I go both ways. I've got privilege, but not privilege, because I'm an immigrant. I was like, okay, you know, I'm sitting next to my coworker, my my co-manager person, and I'm looking at her like, well, you also are an immigrant, but you have an accent. So how does this make you feel that she can say something like that? She also is an immigrant, but the immigration status is a little different. So how does that make you feel? Um, and I don't think that she's ever had that question. Is let me, I'm not trying to do like immigration Olympics, but like, how does that make you feel that she says that she is white passing? Yeah, and you're not.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

All right, does that make you feel some kind of way? Um, you know, how does what is where do you go from what you're privileged now? Um, do you think that your immigration status is a privilege or not a privilege? And so um, those questions, you know, I started to like throw a little bit. You became the trainer at your table. I did.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Yeah, there's always one in the class, at least one in a class.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

And I am that one.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Um, I want to roll back real quick. You said immigrant, being an immigrant from Sweden is as diverse as she can get. Was those were those her words or your words? Her words. Oh.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

See, that's the other thing. All right, I'm I'm about to get on a soapbox. If diversity means difference, then everybody is diverse. And there's diversity in every room. There's diversity in the room that we're in right now, right? But we when we talk about diversity, we shorten it to here, especially here in the United States, we shorten it to race and gender generally.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Skin color specifically about race, but race and gender. And then that's it. And then the people in the room, especially if the person who is training says something like in an off-a-handed comment that what I mean by that is that I'm not a dark-skinned person. And so on this continent, in this scenario, I'm not diverse other than my immigration status or history. That totally undoes all this other work that we're trying to describe. Yeah. When thinking about identities being uh diverse as neurodiversity, ability diversity, um, diversity of thought and background and belief. You know, it just it it sh it cheapens it, yep, shortens it for a little sound bite or clickbait that the folks who don't believe in diversity, equity, inclusion just run with. And so uh you're saying yes because you agree, but I've just needed to be on my soapbox for a second.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

I understand.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

So, okay, let's transition here. The second question, though, is it's along the same lines. It's not it's not a complete departure, but the second question is then if you you've had some DEI training, right? So you've had some good and some bad, from what I understand. Uh what would you give advice to those who are diversity, equity, inclusion practitioners in the work right now? They're training, they're consulting, they're uh strategizing. What is the thing that you would tell them to grow? Right? Something that we want them to continue to do, continue to build on. Um, and what is something that you want them to stop, something that they should never be doing or never do again? You only get one in both categories because I'm sure there's a long list.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

Okay. Things that you can grow. I think um making the training about other people's experiences to round out the lesson or the impact that you're trying to make. Um, I think that sometimes we get so um focused on whatever the training is or whatever, you know, whatever's on the slide. And you could take whatever's on the slide and pick people who are willing to share and tell their own stories and then build off of their stories, dive deeper into their stories, how that makes them feel the emotion, and use that as your leverage in teaching an inspiration or um in trying to make others understand, rather than having to pick random examples in order to try to give a lesson, right? And so I think that if you use the people in the space, hopefully sometimes you know, the people in the space were all connected in some way. They know each other in some way. And so if you can hear that one person speaking about an experience about one person, it makes you feel kind of some kind of way. And there's a deeper feeling and understanding about this diversity, equity, and inclusion training that I'm getting that I take on differently because you know, my co-worker or someone in my company is feeling this or has gone through this, and this is how I, you know, I'm identifying it and I'm viewing it. I think that that does a lot more than being like, oh, there is a story that my company made up because I have a standard that I have to go through. Um, and so that's that's something that I would love to be able to see, and I think that that could allow for the training to flourish more. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Okay, that makes sense. Oh, yeah, yeah. Before you go to the stop, I just have at least one question, and this is just personal advice for me. So you you said utilize the people in the space to help make the point hit home.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Without calling them out, you know, obviously asking for some consent to dive a little bit deeper into their story, yes. But you would hope that them sharing their story was a little bit of an open door to continue to dive deeper.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

So the question that I have then is how do you do that? And I think I have to preface this by like, not how do we get you to participate? Because I think based on what I know about you and based on how you have shared today, you are probably the student in the class that is a oversharer or at least a sharer, and maybe even an oversharer. And so you want to participate. This is something that interests you. But there are uh 29 other people in the room. So, how you would you suggest your other teammates are engaged by the DEI practitioner to get them to participate consensually?

SPEAKER_02 29:56

I don't think that they're I not always do I think that there's only one single person who's willing to share, but I think that there's a lot of people who will give you service level answers. And I think that even though they're giving you service level answers, you could dive a little bit deeper into that thought process um to make them feel a you know a different way, or you know, share your own experiences first, which then hopefully or possibly could allow for others to feel more comfortable sharing. Um, or use that person who's an over-sharer in the space if you have one, and let them share their their story and ask if someone has, you know, else has had experiences um similar or in the um realm of what they share to see if you can get others to to be able to do that sharing. Um, because it only takes one to, for example, to ask the question that we're all thinking for then others to be like, okay, I feel I'll feel comfortable to say this. Um, but like I said before, a lot of people are going to give you surface level answers because they're not too sure or um ready enough to dive a little bit deeper and go as deep as the the trainer might want to go, but there is opportunities, I believe, to dive deeper into a surface level answer.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

I I totally agree. It's just a matter of getting people to into it. So uh at one of the places that I happen to train, we do it on Zoom. Okay. And and you get 30 people in the Zoom space, yeah, and not everybody's got their camera on, not everybody's like paying attention the way you think that they, or you don't you don't know.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

And so engaging them sounds like a lot of a lot of space, a lot of um airtime. Right. There's no there's nobody silence. That's the word I'm looking for. There's a lot of silence. And I have had to practice my wait time, just like, oh, okay, I'm just gonna be quiet until well, silence makes people uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

So then that's a point you're gonna make someone's gonna share because they don't the the silence is uncomforting for them.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

It makes me uncomfortable. I want to make sure we fill the space with understanding and and and and storytelling and the data that we can use.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

It's okay to dive into the discomfort.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Uh yes, with words. That's just I'm on a podcast, so I'm not about to create silence. I don't, that's not what we came here for. So I hear you. It's definitely heard, and it that's uh a discomfort for me. That's a that's a shortcoming I have. I'm working on trying to create space for more deeper than surface level answers.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Um because I know people are also uncomfortable, and certainly because I know I'm not that's not the first or the that's not the last one. So I I get to come back in those in that training scenario, I get to come back. But sometimes it's a one and done. And and I don't want to leave any stones unturned. I don't want folks to not get what it is that they came to get. Uh and so for me, the silence can be a challenge. So it's important to figure out how to engage everybody.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Do you allow them the opportunity to share with each other before they share with you?

SPEAKER_00 32:49

That's something I try to do more often. The think, pair, share uh model is something I learned way long time ago in my education, learning how to be an educator. So first you think about the answer, uh, find out your answer, think about the answer. Then you pair with a partner, then you share at your table, then maybe there's one or two shares out loud. Yeah. And that's generally positive. Uh just it's always how many people in the room, how many people at the table, uh, how are we going to bring everybody back together? If it's Zoom, then putting people in breakout rooms, you don't always know what's happening in the breakout room. So you have to, as the facilitator, go from room to room. Are y'all listening? Are y'all talking? Is it blah blah blah? So it's it just is a challenge to try to balance all of those, or not balance, um, negotiate all those things. So sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

All right. So what should we stop? If you're you got a message to all DEI trainer, practitioner, people out there in the world, what's the thing we shouldn't do anymore?

SPEAKER_02 33:41

I think that goes with you know what I have been saying. Stop reading off of something or don't don't give a training that you're not well versed in. If you if you don't understand, then don't don't give it. If you cannot confidently stand in front of me, and that's that's one thing for me as well, is if you can't confidently stand in front of me without a packet in your hand to explain to me what diversity, equity, inclusion is, I don't believe that you understand it either. So why what am I supposed to take away from this if I can't guarantee that you understand what you're trying to teach me? Because now I feel like I don't, I don't, you don't know, and I don't know, so then we both just don't know. And we're just both going off of some words on a piece of paper that somebody else said that they might not know either.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Are you are you open to a challenge on our podcast?

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Yes, I am.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

All right, so what biases do you think might be impacting how you see somebody when they're reading off a piece of paper or off a slide? Which of your biases might be popping on?

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Their lack of understanding, their lack of lack of um of education. Um, I think one of the biggest biases I'm gonna have for anybody, even if they aren't reading, is you're not my dad. So unfortunately, they that is the biggest biases that I have of all. You are not.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

There are like eight billion people who are not your dad.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

I know, and any of them who decide to try to give me a diversity, equity, and inclusion training, you're not my dad. So I think sorry, y'all. That's just that's just the number one biasy. I walk in. I walk in before I even know who you are. You could be the greatest DEI trainer. There, like you could touch my forehead and boom, diversity, equity, inclusion is fixed in my world. Yeah, you're still not my dad. So I'm gonna find something like I don't think my dad would have taught it that way. Are you sure you want to say it that way? Um, and I think that's the that's the biggest biasy that I have is that I already am coming in not fully open because of who you are.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

I mean, that's that's real. A, I'll all compliments are how we get along in life. So I definitely appreciate that. Um, but it's it is real, right? Once you have learned something in a particular way, then it's hard to learn it in another way. And so for me specifically, like I will go into a DEI session, and it's not because of who trained me, but because of what I think I already know about diversity, equity, inclusion, and how we're gonna get to the humanization on the other end of this work that I already believe how we're gonna get there. So how how you teach me or what you're telling me, if it doesn't fit with what my mental model is, I'm out, I'm done. I'm not already not listening, I'm thinking about other things, or I'm judging, probably also.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

So that's that's that's real. And the reason I asked the challenge, one, because you said earlier at the top of the episode that you have biases. Yeah. So I appreciate you being open to that challenge. And then two, I've I've met a number of people who know their stuff and are really challenged by the uh public speaking uh activity, the activity of public speaking.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

And so they read from their pieces of paper or their slide, you know, you can put notes on the slide or whatever, or yeah, notes on your slides when you print them out. Um, because they want to make sure not to miss anything, that they know their stuff, but that's the stuff is not, it's it's so hard to also publicly project and and also get in front of people, and lots of people make you nervous and all that. So it's not that you don't know their stuff, they want to make sure they get it right. So is it possible that the person reading it that you might be having some biases against also do know their stuff?

SPEAKER_02 37:18

1000%. That is very much possible. And the biases still stands that I am not grasping the words that you're saying enough because you're looking off a be uh about a piece of paper.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

And I think that when I think about that, right, if if one of my teachers in high school or in middle school were to sit and read off of their teaching packet or whatever they're called, if you're sitting here trying to teach me about mitosis and you're reading off of your paper, I'm also gonna look at you like you're crazy.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

Yeah. Shout out to the science teachers teaching mitosis. I I appreciate the vocabulary work. I I think that is the splitting of the cell.

SPEAKER_02 38:03

Please don't ask me. I think that's what it is. Please don't ask me, because that's the first word that came to my mind when I was thinking about teachers.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

I'm pretty sure that's when cells split is mitosis.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

Okay. I wasn't in the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell. Powerhouse of the cell.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

I don't know if I'm right. I'm sure we will hear about it on the pod later. Uh I'm gonna have to look it up. Okay. Okay. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

But but if if my teacher, much like a sub, right? A sub doesn't know exactly what they're doing, and so then they have a paper in front of them, and so I'm expecting them to not know what they're doing, so I'm expecting them to read off of the piece of paper because they don't know.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Because I don't know and you don't know, so we both don't know because the teacher told you to to tell us to do this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

But if my teacher was to come in like the sub and reading off the paper, I can't guarantee them to sit here and be like, mm-hmm. I completely understand, because uh you look like you don't understand. So then now we both look like we don't understand. Yeah, but maybe this is also because I was told in my business classes, right? Shout out to Mr. Decker, that I should have Mr.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Decker business class.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

That I should only have a certain amount of words on the screen in my PowerPoint, and there should be only a certain amount of words on my note card because I should be speaking to you face to face rather than reading off of the slide because I mean in in Mr. Decker's classes, it it for him or in even in DECA and things like that, it doesn't, I'm not convincing you that I understand my stuff. And I get that public speaking, that is that's a very big, it's a very big fear for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

So for some people, it's the second fear. Next to death, it's the second thing, highest thing that people are afraid of.

SPEAKER_02 39:39

And so that's where the biasy lets sets in, is that I don't have that fear. I don't have that fear. So now I have this like slight judgment or expectation that need you to look here so we can understand together.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

Um, but so yeah, that I think that's that's where it is. And from my own experiences and my own past, because that's where biases are formed from. I was taught, don't do that. So then I have this expectation that you also shouldn't do that, because I was taught not to do that. So we both should not be doing that.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Close case closed on the bias conversation. That's exactly how biases work. And we all didn't catch that. Michaela said, I have a bias about how you should do a thing. Therefore, I have an expectation that you're gonna do that thing. And when you don't do that thing, then my biases tell me that you're not doing the thing right.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Correctly. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

That's how bias works.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

That's how they work.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

It's one that is a 101 explanation. Thank you for that explanation. If you uh DEI practitioner out there and you haven't figured it out, just rewind what Michaela just said, and that's how you teach it. That's a very good, great way to think about it. And everybody has it. Yes, everybody's got it. And it doesn't mean that you're a bad person, it means that you have that in your mind that you automatically associate with people, with identities, with places, with with things like DEI trainings, and it doesn't mean that you're gonna be right. You might be wrong, and that might interact in the DEI training space, in the relationships, and the communication that you're having. And so, yeah, bias is, and that's what it is. Yep. All right, so Michaela, this has been wonderful learning from a person who's been in DEI trainings and has grown listening to DEI topics uh to influence all that. So I think uh we're come to the place where we just have a takeaway, right? So when thinking about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion, what are you gonna take, what are you taking away from this conversation or what are you hoping for is coming up next in the the future of diversity, equity, inclusion work?

SPEAKER_02 41:30

For me, my biggest takeaway um is that as many people will say is that you you can teach. And there are many people who are open to learn. You just have to figure out, you know, their style of learning or how you want to teach them in a way. Um and so teaching that diversity, equity, and inclusion is not all bad, you know, having to not pick up the pieces, but going back to my space and going to talk to that, you know, those individuals who felt like they were called out, that that's not diversity, equity, and inclusion everywhere. You just had one small bad experience, and so you shouldn't let that tarnish every other training that you have access to, or that, you know, when we go back next year, you're not walking in there like, oh my gosh, I have to be here again, and I don't want to do this, and I'm I'm already shutting down and not listening because there's opportunity to grow. I think I could help that opportunity of growth, especially in my space.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Okay, I hope for that. And certainly tell those three Republicans, we would love to talk to them. Uh, you can give them our our information at Seven Focus. Tell them to come on the Beyond the Training podcast because we'd love to talk a little bit about what that experience was like. I can only imagine seeing them standing up all slow and like kind of awkward looking around because they've seen everybody else do that, hoping that there's more of them in the room. But you know how you kind of count like is how I'm gonna be the person. Yeah, I tell them we we appreciate them standing up like that, and we'd love to talk to them.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

All right. This has been the Beyond the Training podcast where we move from great intent to even greater impact. We'd love to hear more feedback from you all. What did you think of the episode? Do you want to argue with Michaela or me for that matter? Uh send us an email at impact at seven focus.com or hit us up on the all the socials that you see us out on uh Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, and all those good spaces. And we will see you all next time.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

Thank you.