What Your Outfit Says About Your Culture

Certainly there are connections between language and culture.  In those connections we are able to understand what is expected of us in our communities, our organizations and our relationships.
What, then, is the intersection between the language and culture of fashion and the work of diversity, equity and inclusion?
In this episode, we welcome fashion professional, Malcolm to the conversation to discuss how he sees his world and the work of inclusion in it.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Beyond the Training Podcast. I'm Mr. Robert. Hey Malcolm, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:04

I'm doing well yourself. I'm good. How's your mental health? It's doing great, actually. Yeah. It's been a journey though. I'm not gonna say it's always been this way. Yeah. But it's doing great now, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

I'm glad to hear that. In case you're wondering, my mental health is also in a good place. I was outside a lot today, so the sun is shining, beautiful weather. Got to do my favorite thing, which is talking. So I got to do a little bit of that. So I'm in a really good space. And you know what? Let's back up. I want to welcome you to the Beyond the Training podcast. I know you know this is the space where we come to move from great intent to even better impact. And since folks don't know you or may not know you on this pod, who are you and what do you do in the community?

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Okay, so it just depends. Um by day, I'm a finish line employee. I sell shoes. Um shout out to finish line.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

We're looking for uh opportunities to partner. For sure. Shout out to Finish Line.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Um and then by night, I'm a basketball coach. I coach youth basketball for Hoopco Boss Basketball Academy. Hoop Co. Shout out to Hoop Co. Shout out to Hoopco. Uh third grade through eighth is usually what I'm ripp in charge of, boys and girls. Uh so that's my profession, I guess you would say. And what I do for the community is I'm a creator. I create things of all mediums, whether it's a painting, a drawing, more importantly, fashion, clothes. That's kind of more so my niche. I do a lot of videography like we were doing today. Um, you know, things of that nature.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Yeah, I and because of that, I really wanted to bring you into the space to the Beyond the Training podcast, because there's a connection, I think, uh, I believe, between fashion, as you named it, and creatives too, like creative and creating and culture. And so I have a question for you, but I just want to lay out kind of what it is that we were talking about earlier for the folks to kind of get a background. So as we're talking about the differences that make a difference between us, we often in our trainings are talking about uh identity dimensions, uh, gender, race, uh, language, religion, identities, right? And those differences make a difference, and we train about that all the time. But when you were talking about being a creative and talking specifically about fashion, I was like, I wonder what the intersection are intersections are of culture, as we talk about as a as one of our identities and fashion in the industry that you're in. So when you hear that question, this is the that's the first question of many. Okay, what are the intersections do you think there are between fashion and culture?

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Uh, that's a great question. Um, I see the intersection as being just passion. Okay. Uh for fashion, for me, I'm speaking solely for me. I don't know what others you know interact with those, but I see it as passion. Um, because in my culture, it's big on passion. Whether it's sports, whether it's life, family, we just big on passion. Um, and I think the same for fashion. I have a big passion on creating things of whatever, like whatever I'm interested in, whether I feel is dope, not dope, comfortable. I should find a passion. And so that's where the intersect comes in that is passion street, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Okay, passion street. All right, so let's dig in a little bit. So tell us a little bit about how do you define your culture? You said in my culture, passion is big, but what is your culture? How do you define that?

SPEAKER_00 3:16

I couldn't give you a definite definition, um, but I can kind of paint you a picture of my culture if I'm gonna do it. All right, creative, paint the picture. Okay. Uh so I just see my culture as the things that I was taught as I was growing up, the things that I've embodied since I've been a child, as a kid, adolescent. That's how I see my culture, which is a little bit of rugged, uh a little bit of outgoing, I would say. Um I don't really have the words to put it together for you, but just an inner city kid, really, that's my culture. I'm really a city kid, as you would like to say. Yeah. Um, and that's just my idea of my culture. I don't if you give me another question, I can I can better expound on it.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

I got you. So one, shout out to the city kids. Uh, all due respect to those who live in the farm community, sure. In the rivers and lake spaces and the mountain spaces, and shout out to our city kids, uh urban as you may be. Um all right, so when we talk on this part about culture, we're talking about the customs, the languages, the traditions that we all have that tells us like how to behave in the worlds that we are in. So if you're seeing yourself, seeing yourself as a passionate inner city kid, what are the customs, what are the languages, what are the traditions that brought you to where you are now?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Okay, so I'm gonna break it down to the three different things. You said you said language. Yep. You said customs, customs, and tradition. Tradition. Okay. So first tradition. Um, I just go hard in everything I do. All right. That's that's the first one. We off the bat, whatever it is. Um I've played basketball the majority of my life, football, whatever the sport was. So whenever I'm playing that sport, I'm doing something, I'm giving it all I have. So that's that's the tradition. That's the that's that's that. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

So sports and going going hard in sport.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Not so much sports, but just going hard. Okay. That's the tradition. It's just go hard in whatever you're doing. Okay. Um, the language, and this is the kind of part that helped the you know the growth, is that the language to begin wasn't so inviting, it wasn't so uplifting. Just being in the inner city was very not confrontational, but it wasn't the easiest thing to be around. Okay. Which, you know, I mean I helps, doesn't help, just depends on the person. But the language that I'm accustomed to is kind of a little bit tougher. Makes your skin a little bit, you know, rough, I guess you could say, a little thick skin. Right. Um, so that's the language for that. And then the last one was traditions. Okay. The traditions. I don't have many traditions. No? Nah. I don't really have too many traditions. I bet you do. Give me an example and I might be able to.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Alright. Uh, do you celebrate your birthday? I do celebrate my birthday. Alright. Do you celebrate anything else? Like, are there holidays that you celebrate? For sure. So there are traditions around those celebrations, right? Birthday cake and blowing out the candles, or uh Christmas, putting up the Christmas tree, or Okay, I give what you're saying. Those are those are specific traditions. In in my family, a tradition that we have is around the matriarch, right? So uh the woman of the house or the woman of the family, and maybe not the house, right, is the most important figure. Okay. And we, if the you know, grandma will say something or auntie says something, everybody follows. And that's just the way it is. That we don't really have a lot of male leaders in our family, just in general. And so that's also a part of tradition is follow the mother who or the matrix matriarch. So that might also be another another example. Celebrations, traditions, um, who you follow. And then I think another place that people think about tradition is also connected to their faith or religion or their traditions that are inside of their. So you might have some of those.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Okay. So I'm gonna piggyback off of the family aspect of things. Uh, I guess a big tradition is gatherings. We celebrate together regardless of what it is. Um, a basketball game, we go to a family members basketball game. Uh of course the birthdays and the holidays and everything, but we also celebrate accomplishments, like graduations and things of that nature. It is. Okay. So we have that tradition. Um, I mean, uh, you kind of spelled it out too, like the matriarch portion of things. Like I I follow the lead of the head of the household, which is typically the mother. Yep. My mom is the person I listen to a thousand percent of the time.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

We always shout out moms on the pod, so we can shout out to mom.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Hey, you know, shout out to my best friend, my mom. Nice. Um, so yeah, those are really the only two traditions that I'm accustomed to is just gathering to celebrate with my loved ones and then following the lead of the person that's always been love lead.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

So that's it. So you you've named a whole bunch of cultural reference points, cultural uh connections that that uh help you define what is your culture. And I imagine a lot of people that are listening have very similar, right? Traditions, languages, customs, and there are other people, other things that people see inside their culture. Well, it's funny in our training is we don't talk about culture a lot. In fact, uh in public education, in the United States especially, we learn about culture as something everybody else has. Because in the United States, that is the one dominant culture that we are all connected to, whether we like it or not. You you might have traveled here from another country, uh, and as soon as you get into public school education, you hear about American culture to the point where this is just something that's funny to me, uh, kids will leave the United States on the on July 3rd and then wake up in another country and wonder why they're not celebrating July 4th in that country. It's a real thing that because the traditions and the culture are so strong here in the United States that they'll get over there and be like, how come we're not celebrating Independence Day in this other country? Not remembering every country has their own, well, not every country. A lot of countries have their own independence days, and it's different. It's only specifically July 4 uh is only specific to the United States in that way. But we don't talk about that, we don't learn about that, and so you have to you get lucky, maybe K through 12 education to learn that that's not everybody's culture, or go to college or travel and get your heart broken on July 4th in China, you know what I mean? Like what happened? I was in China, they didn't celebrate, you know, learn different things. So I say all that to say that that's that is culture, and everybody defines their cultures differently. So those of you who are listening, you've heard us say this before. Everyone has a culture. Most of us have multiple cultures that we're a part of. Right. All right, so now having established that, how do how do you see fashion and those things around culture? If if we stick with those language custom traditions, how does that play a role in fashion?

SPEAKER_00 10:04

I can only speak on you know my perspective on it. Okay. So I mean, just to begin with, uh, like we said, this tough kiss skin part, right? I make things that I like. So regardless of your opinion on it, I'm gonna make it because I like it. I'm aware because I like it. Not to get in I mean, I get reactions just because that's a part of the the industry, but I make things because I like it, not to hear what you have to say about it, because what you just have to say about it might not be what I want to hear, just in general. So I I guess that part is I make the clothes or the fashion pieces like I make my skin thick. Like I don't get what I'm saying. Okay, resistant almost. Exactly. I'm not following a norm, I'm not trying to be like the next. I just make it because I like it, and that's the imagination that I came up with, or creativity that I came up with. And then before you go further, let me ask you a question about that though.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

And and so, you know, people who've seen us on the spot, they know that I'm in the hoodie game. That's that's just my thing. Um, this is this hood, uh, this hoodie that I got wearing is is as far as fashion goes for me. Okay, somebody else tells me what else to wear because I just not that's not my thing.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

But as I understand fashion, it seems like you won't be successful if you don't respond to how people think about your your clothing, your fashion, your brand. And and you're I see you're looking at me like that. So so tell me more. Like, how can you be resistant to feedback and be successful and fashion?

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Okay. Um, I can give you two examples. One example I'm still doing research on, so forgive me if I'm wrong on some parts of it, but for the most part, the majority of the big brands out there, the pillars in the fashion industry, are designers or companies or conglomerates that had their own idea, their own ideology, and they stuck to it. They created their own community, and it wasn't about any outsiders. They knew that what they were making was gonna be cool because they thought it was cool, so people hopped onto the wave. Yes, of course, the marketing came into a big part of it and able to communicate that to the masses, but it wasn't that they were condensing their thoughts or you know, conforming to what they seen to other people. They made what they thought was gonna be cool, they stuck with it until it became cool enough to everybody in the world saw it.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Huh. So resistant to a point. Right, resistant to a point that your community, the community that you end up building, right, is able to become uh as big as you want it to be or as as integrated as you want it to be.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

I think just resistance, period though. Like I'm gonna keep making whatever I want to make. Even if there's no community. Even if there's no community.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Because I'm only I mean, well, in examples that I'm saying, like for one, Crenshaw, like the Nipsey Hustle brand.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Okay, shout out to Nipsey Hustle's brand.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Man, shout out to Nip in general.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Okay, in general.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

He made Crenshaw because it meant something to him. It wasn't that it was cool to the next guy. Crenshaw was where he grew up. Yeah, Crenshaw was I mean, what made him is what he was saying. So he made it into something that was communicated to the masses. It wasn't that he changed the way of his language or the way he presented it. He literally made a map, followed the map, and put in places to the different pieces that you know need to get to where he was going. He didn't change anything, if that makes sense. Okay, I'm with you. And there's another brand called Rude. Okay. R-H-U-D-E. Okay. Have you heard of that? No, I haven't heard of that. I know Nipsey Hustle, but that's as cool as I get. I don't know this other brand. Okay, so it's just a guy that's I think he's from he's somewhere overseas, but it's his name, his family's name. All right. Even his family didn't like the brand to begin with. But he knew what he was making was dope. He stuck with it, and because he had the correct marketing behind it, and he was able to communicate it to the masses, it became one of the biggest streetwear brands that we all know. Now we all know the fashion, the fashion industry now knows as a pillar in the community. Huh. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

So so the tough skin, the resistant skin can be useful.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

I mean, it has to be useful because if you're gonna make something off of somebody else's opinion, you're gonna fail us when they say it's trash.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

I just I guess that's what's tough for me, is that I feel like the stuff, and then I'm I'm I am not the best fashion Easter uh person to speak on, and so this is me learning.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

But it feels like popular fashion is all about what people want and being responsive to that. But that's because the brands that I wear are stuff that a lot millions of people wear, right? So the the the bigger brands that are not sponsoring us right now, but your you know, your Nikes and your uh your Reeboks or whatever Target has, because that's where I happen to shop.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

And so when I think about, when I think about fashion, I'm like, well, it looks nice on my body and I can be and I can afford it. Somebody a long, long time ago was probably thinking that so that I would go to the store and see something that I wanted to wear. Right. I'm only now just like tapping into this brand that I got that uh uh that I'm wearing right now. Uh that I'm we're still waiting on the details that they're gonna, if they're gonna hit us up or not. I'm just now getting into like smaller uh boutique kind of uh brands because I have the affordability to do that and I know that it is important to to help out small businesses, but you know, a hoodie's a hoodie is a hoodie for most of my life. Right. And so it feels that resistance feels like it might not be successful, but I I'm hearing you say that there is success in that, and so that's just new for me to be learning.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

So it comes down to this, though. There's two different sides of fashion, there's fast fashion, and then there's fashion fashion. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

You said there's fashion, fashion, and there's fast fashion.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Fast fashion is the fashion that you see like in the masses. Everybody's wearing it, it's easy to find, it's affordability. Right. Now we're getting to the high-end luxury fashion fashion. The pieces that are like $500 for a t-shirt, $1,000 for a hoodie. Those are the pillars because they set the standard of what fashion really is. And then not saying that the lower brands are lower value, but the other brands got in where they could fit in and built their community off of that. The pioneers made whatever they were gonna make. You're gonna like it because I keep putting it in your face and I'm putting it in around the people that you look up to. I'm not marketing to your likeness. I don't care if you like it or not. You're gonna buy it because of how I marketed it. Um fast fashion is oh, you like that? Okay, I'm gonna make the same thing, and you're gonna buy it because it looks the same, it feels the same, blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

It's the uh McDonald's, Wendy's Burger King situation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

I'm just taking somebody else's, remixing it a little bit, yeah, and throwing it into the fire so it can cook. Whereas other brands, like the pillars, I'm gonna make this because I just like to create. I know it's gonna be hard because I like it. I'm gonna buy it. I know my community's gonna buy it. So if you don't buy it, then you just write the person I was shopping to anyway.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

You know what this reminds me of? This is a total departure from fashion, but I'm starting to think about this differently now that you've shared this. I often say I like to preach to the choir in the work around diversity, equity, and inclusion and and and and uh dehumanization and anti-oppression. Okay. So have you heard that before? Preach to the choir? Yeah. Okay. And the reason I like preaching to the choir is because I know the people in the choir know the words for the songs. And even sometimes we'll invite people to the song singing. They don't really know the song, but they want to sing it, they like to tap their foot, you know. Um, and so the the folks that are on the outside of the the the choir who don't like what we're singing, don't know how to get on beat, or don't want to get on beat, those folks, I'm like, that's fine. Because the choir is pretty big without you. The choir sounds great without you. And even if you come in and you're gonna mess things up because you're on a whole different beat than we are on. And so this feels like that, that DEI work and the trainings that we do, the education we do is not it's not niche, it's it's not like a one-only. We do have some things that are like specific to my brand, specific to uh Jamie's brand. Like there we have some isms, some Mr. Robert isms. But on the whole, we're talking about humanization. Right. On the whole, we're talking about uh undoing the isms of the world so if you don't like it, you don't have to buy it. Because there's the whole the hope is building a community that you were talking about. The hope is there's enough of a community of folks that I get to share it with who want it or at least want to try it.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

For sure. And that's why, like even like outside of fashion, think of like Mark Zuckerberg or other people like that that did things that were like, why would you do that? That doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Now look, Amazon is probably the biggest company in America, yeah. The world in general. Yeah. If he didn't think that he had something worth selling and he just conformed to everything else that was going on around him, would you be able to get your Christmas present before Christmas?

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Right. Shout out to Amazon. Um, but also pause on that because we need to have a different conversation. So we're not looking for a sponsor necessarily, but we definitely want to talk, right? For sure. Uh so I think yeah, I think that's a that's a new one on me. Just the there's I asked the question about the intersections of culture and fashion, and now I'm seeing there's also a intersection in the work that we do. Maybe there's an art form in in this work of diversity, equity, inclusion, education, yeah, uh, and consultation. But okay, so let's let's also go back. So you language, customs, and traditions, okay, how those show up in fashion. Are there other things that you would share with us that uh are connections in fashions that you see to culture?

SPEAKER_00 20:08

For sure. Language is another big thing. Um I think it's just kind of like dialect. Somebody in Mexico speaks Spanish completely different from somebody from Ecuador. Totally. But it's the same language almost.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

That's what they say, right? Again, if you don't learn your stuff, then you think Spanish is Spanish is Spanish. And we know and we know better.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Okay. What does that just sound like? We just said fashion is not just fashion. Yeah, there's fast fashion, there's that's the same thing. You communicate on how you talk. So, like in New York or somewhere in like Philly, people wearing tight jeans, new balances. You go somewhere that's in the south, they got baggy clothes on, a lot of streetwear designs, all because of the language that's spoke through fashion in those different regions, I guess you would say. Fashion is language, also.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Or it's it's a no, it's language. Fashion is language, for sure, for sure. That's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

And now, knowing fashion, I can tell a person. I mean, I'm not gonna say I can know who you are based off of what you wear, but I have a really good idea of who you are based off of what you wear. Really? For sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

This is not where I thought this question, this conversation was gonna go. So I'm gonna say the question I have for you is what do you know about me based on what you know about my fashion? But before you do that, so I'm gonna give you some a moment. Okay, the thing that came up for me right away was you're talking about the South. And on every Tuesday, I don't know if you know this. Do you know that I wear bow ties on Tuesday? I did not know that. Bowtie Tuesday. Right. There's a whole story behind Bowtie Tuesday that I don't have to tell on the pod. Okay. I don't think I have yet. But I do.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

You should do that. Definitely do that. I I'm interested in knowing.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

So okay, short story. Uh make the story shorter. I first ran into National Bowtie Tuesday when I was working at a place with a uh a dude who was wearing bow ties just on regular. He was just that kind of guy. His name is Nate. Shout out to Nate. Um bow ties that were uh Legos made of Legos, bow ties that were made out of cloth, bow ties. He had a bow tie that was like um made out of wire, you know, and so all kinds of but he just wore it because that was kind of his shtick. It wasn't fashion necessarily, but uh well, okay, oh right, yeah. I said it when I was like, when I was saying it, I was like, okay, but maybe so that was his way of being, right? His expression, and he loved bow ties. And I thought they were cool. And and so that when I first met him, very close to when I met him, it was National Bowtie Day, which is November, uh, August the 28th. Every year, August 20th is National Bowtie Day. So I was like, I challenge you to a bow tie challenge, and it happened to be that August was uh Tuesday, right? So it was like, oh, it's National Bowtie Tuesday Day, you know, whatever. Uh and so we did it, and you know, it was friendly stuff. Right. And I was like, I challenge you to a bow tie Tuesday every week. And so for him, for Nate, he was just like, whatever, Robert, you're weird. That's fine. We'll try it. And he, I technically won, but only because I was the only one competing. Right. He'd wear a bow tie because he was wearing a bow tie. I wore a bow tie every Tuesday. I've been wearing a bow tie since I started that job six years ago, every Tuesday. If I'm at work, I'm in a bow tie. Right. And so I didn't, I thought I was doing something special. Uh, not only because I felt like I was special, but I didn't, I don't work with a lot of people, especially black dudes who wear bow ties. Oh, here. Nate's black. No, he's not. Oh. Nate is not, but I am. Oh, okay. And so, right, so I meeting, running into people who wear bow ties, it was usually usually older white men of a certain age that would wear them. A lot of doctors, too. Doctors and and and academics. Then I traveled to Atlanta for a conference in my bow tie because it was one of the Tuesday. Everybody had a bow tie on. And these are black dudes, black dudes with locks, black dudes with fades, black dudes who who have that southern dialect, black dudes that have that more Philly accent. Yeah. And so from all walks of life, but we're all wearing the bow tie. So I'm not special in Atlanta with my bow tie on, because that's just everybody, right? And here's the I'll give you even a paint a picture. So uh I was on Peachtree, uh, one of them, on a scooter, right, in my bow tie with a backpack on, carrying a smoothie at the same time. It's very Colorado of me to be like backpacked, headed to work on a on a smooth with a smoothie in one hand and a scooter in the other. Dangerous too, but uh that but you can get the picture, right? Yeah, for sure. Tell me why I passed like four or five other dudes doing the same thing. And it wasn't, I wasn't special. I'm special in my town, but not special in Atlanta for that. So that's what brought me to that when you were talking about the different dialects that we have, the different languages, and that that can be expressed through fashion. But I'm not always in a bow tie, right? That's only Tuesdays, and if I'm at work, right? Most of the time, my favorite outfit is gym shorts and a hoodie, my favorite hoodie. And so I'm in one of those right now. But I'm at work, a hoodie's not acceptable where, right? Um, when I'm in in front of crowds, uh, I haven't figured out if I can wear a hoodie to do a keynote. I know guys that do, but I'm not that, I'm not them. So I don't, I don't know. I haven't been able to be in a boardroom where everybody's suiting and tying, and I'm in the hoodie. And also, there was uh a couple episodes ago, I talked about how I was challenged by what I was wearing. Someone in the room that we were there to deliver on a keynote, and a guy was like, I just wonder why are you dressed that way? And and I was in my uh shirt and uh blazer, but I also had my panda dunks on. And so he was asking me, like, why are you dressed that way when the rest of us are dressed this way? And we could talk all day about how the ego kind of showed up for me and for him, but it was clear that it mattered to him. I've been told a number of times if I show up at a job interview in a hoodie, even though that might be the most comfortable, and the things that I say out of my mouth and brain are legit, right? That the hoodie is gonna be what keeps me from getting that job. And these are black dudes that have told me that, not just just uh just regular individuals. So the question I asked, I give you all kinds of time to think about this. Okay, based on what you know about my fashion, what do you think you know about me? Or what is what has been uh what have you learned about me knowing what I wear?

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Okay. So based off of the things that I've seen you wear and the things you wear on your platform, your appearance matters to you. You care a lot about what your appearance appears to others. You're big on speaking, and when I'm speaking to you, I want you to know I am a person of I would say elegance for lack of a better term. I don't want you to think I'm some hood guy with a hoodie on. That's why I have a button up. And that's what I take from what you wear.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Wow. I just was psychoanalyzed uh through my through my c my content. How close was I? Absolutely, very close. Okay. I I oh absolutely. I I believe in the appearances meaning something, right? I wish it wasn't. I do want to be able to show up to a job interview in a hoodie, and they go, Well, he's got a hoodie on, and what he had to say was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Well, can I say something?

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Of course, yeah, what?

SPEAKER_00 26:55

So I used to say the same thing, right? I was really big on my appearance. I think the argument is coming here, so I'm just being prepared. Yeah, for sure. I was big on my appearance, you know. Like, I'll even show you, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

I was big on what I look like, how I talk to people, what it came across as for those of you who are listening and can't watch that uh Malcolm has just taken off his hoodie and show us are you showing us your tattoos? For sure.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Okay, all right. So if you're a person of a CEO stature in your company, how would you think if this was a job interview?

SPEAKER_01 27:24

You and me? So if I'm the CEO, I've never been the CEO of anything, but I'm I'm a CEO. It depends. Okay, but I'll tell you if you come in with the tattoos and a t-shirt and a hat to the side, I'm already thinking this is about to be a more street conversation than a straight academic conversation.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

That's what I'm thinking. Right. Right. The first words out of my mouth are the biggest words that your company's as a collective.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

No, they don't have to be big, but let's say you're impressing me with your vocabulary.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

That's what you're saying. Now I'm telling you things that your company needs to fix, can be better at, and how I can do it for you. Right. I haven't skipped a beat and I haven't studied a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Now what are you saying?

SPEAKER_01 28:05

The whole time I'm thinking, and this is the argument, so the legit was sitting in your chair, and I was saying the things that I'm that I uh want to be able to say about wearing a hoodie and what I would want, this is just ideally, what I would want to be able to do is go, those things are my biases, and I'm gonna fight through them because the content of his character and the things that he was saying are more important than what's on his arms, let's say. And, and this is what the uh OGs that were at the table were saying to me, but you also are gonna represent our company that I'm the CEO of in the other spaces. And if this is your first interview, what I have to decide between is do I know that you're gonna understand what those other groups need, those other tables need in order to make sure our business grows.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

And and so then I'd have to think about how to ask the questions so that I know that you know that. But I can't ask you, do you own a suit? Like I can't ask you that. Uh so I'd have to think about my behavioral questioning, behavioral uh interview questioning to be able to get to that.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Okay, and that's fair. But I just all that to say because I was once in the shoes of like, okay, I can't look this way, I have to change the way I am. So then I try to be a person of a different facade. Like I'm a different person, I'm buttoned up, I'm sitting like this all the time, and then you catch me one day and I'm actually Malcolm. But I'm the same thing, I'm telling you the same knowledge, I'm talking you the same, sorry. I'm telling you the same though, same person. Only thing that changed is my outfit. I can't I can't do the in-between. I have to be what I am. It doesn't matter what I'm wearing if I can tell you or I can communicate to you, or my character is my character, I'm not a bad person. Why does it matter what you're wearing?

SPEAKER_01 29:52

Well, the answer is in what you said that uh we can't see that. Right? Right. And and because of what we think we know about people with tattoos, of what we think we know about people with braids, because what we think about people with certain skin tones, for sure. That that's the first thing that's at the front of our mindset all the time. Right. What you're talking about is an ideal world. What you're talking about is something I would love to be able to get to. I too have tattoos. I am a big fan of tattoos, and if I'm in my favorite outfit, you can see my tattoos, right? I don't know at work, I don't think I ever show them off. Unless I'm wearing a short-sleeve shirt, I don't I don't think I would be, and I'm not usually in a short-sleeve shirt because it doesn't look good with the bow tie at the same time. Anyway, so I uh what you're talking about is ideal. I and I want us to get there. And especially because, so you and I are of different generations, I'm a bit older than you are. There are people who are coming into the workforce who, even if I'm not the CEO, I'm a leader, who I'm going, I'm gonna have to be able to hire at some point or need to hire at some point, and they want to wear the hoodie, right? They want to show up as their authentic selves, which means they're fashion and to communicate in their through and in their fashion. So I'm gonna have to figure that out. And I think all of us, not just me, all of us are gonna figure that out, uh, CEOs or not. I don't know how we'll get there. The work that I'm doing is so that we can get there. I just don't know how we will.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

I think it's just figuring out the correct questions and being good at discerning between good character and bad character.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

And we're bad at that. We human beings are just bad. A thousand percent.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Me too, because I hate to say it, but if I see a person that looks like me, tattoos and all I'm thinking niggas the worst.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Really?

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Yeah, I can't help it. Huh. Especially like I said, my upbringing wasn't the like the easies going, like it wasn't always nice. So the tattoos and whatnot, and the people that look the way I do weren't always oh hi, can I rub your back and that'd be nice? So I'm thinking like, oh, he's gonna be that guy. But then it takes me a second, like, wait, you're not that guy, so why can't you give him the benefit of the doubt? At least at first, yeah, until otherwise present it.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

That's really interesting that you would you're legit showing up the way that people that uh you didn't see as positive were showing up when you were younger. For sure. And now you're in that body or in that mode. For sure.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

That's really interesting, and it took some real self-reflection. That's why I kind of got into fashion, actually, because I don't I like who I am, I like my tattoos, I like the things that I wear. That's good. I like to communicate myself. So, I mean, that's what I'm here for when it comes to the fashion industry. So that's why I say all that to say.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Wow. All right, well, so uh, we're coming to the close of this particular episode. I'm curious, what would you want people to know about fashion? When you think about diversity, equity, and inclusion, what would you want people to know who are listening about fashion? As far as the diversity. Yeah, when you think diversity, equity, inclusion. You know what we do in in our content and whatnot?

SPEAKER_00 32:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

What do you want people to know about fashion when thinking through those lenses?

SPEAKER_00 32:59

That is a good question. Um, I think fashion is diversity and it's equity inclusion. Because it's all encompassing. Your fashion and my fashion are two different fashions.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Not even saying you and I, but just in general. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's still fashion. So everybody does fashion differently. You can't exclude one fashion because it doesn't pertain to you, or in your perspective, it's not attractive or appealing. It's still fashion. And that's what makes fashion so dope, is that there's no right or wrong answer. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

You know, there I I know you know that there's a whole industry that that is designed to say which which brands are gonna go up this year and which brands are not. So there is a right or wrong answer, but I'm just not in that game. Yeah, if you're if I we we watch Fashion Week on TV all the time. Like, if you if your brand doesn't get as many kudos uh on the runway, then your brand may not survive. Or is it not like that?

SPEAKER_00 34:03

I think that's just them basing their opinion off of like what they've seen. Right. But the I mean it comes down to business at the end of the day. Like fashion is part of it, yes. But if your marketing is trash and you're not gonna get anywhere anyway, them saying yours is cool might get you a little bit right, get you through the door at least to get you some eyes on the product. But if you have bad marketing, a bad website, bad sales channel, it doesn't matter what they said about your brand.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

That's interesting. And I'm gonna connect it back to diversity, equity, and inclusion because we say the very same thing about people who are in the diversity, equity, and training uh equity and inclusion training spaces right now.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

That you might have really good content, but if nobody hears you, then that doesn't matter. Or you might, and there are a lot of people who are really bad at delivering the messages that we all have the same similar messages and they're really bad at delivering it and they make people feel blamed or shamed or guilted into the work that we're trying to get them to do. Right. Uh, and they mess it up for the rest of us, right? Because they do have good websites, because they do have good marketing, but they're they're they're trashing themselves. So there's a definite connection to fashion and diversity, equity, and inclusion on on this side of the uh the table as well. Well, Malcolm, I really appreciate you being here and and and hearing uh so much about fashion. I didn't expect that this conversation was gonna go the way that it did, but I'm glad that it did. Um, and and so glad that you were able to be here. So thank you so much. For sure. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. So this has been the Beyond the Training Podcast, where we moved from really great intent to even deeper impact. And so we want to hear from you all. What did you think about the connections between diversity, equity, inclusion, and fashion art? Send us an email at impact at seven-focus.com. Check us out on social media. We're gonna make sure that Malcolm's social media is connected to this episode so that you see us out there, connect with him and the work that he's doing out there in the community. And certainly uh hit us up on uh wherever you're listening. If you've got feedback, we want to hear from you. And we will see you all next time.