When Pushback Is Actually a Sign You're Making Progress

Is resistance positive?  Can pushback be a sign of good things?
In this episode, our hosts debate the real messages, intentions and impacts of those who pushback in meetings, trainings and programs related to diversity, equity and inclusion.
It's been said that 'there's no such thing as bad press'...what about ideological resistance?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Be on the Training Podcast. Hey Jamie, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Let me pause and really think about this question.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

You're pausing to think about how you are?

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Yeah, I want it to be an authentic answer, not just like I'm good or I'm okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

All right.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

How am I? I have some work to do today. So I can't just sit in my bed or on the couch all day. So uh and I'm more regularly than not reframing, I get to do these things versus I have to do these things. So I'm in the reframe mode of I get to do some work prep today.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

I see. I think that's that's a really good answer. I'm in reframe mode. I like that.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

And that's better than I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Yeah. Well, I mean, even if you I'm good, then I would I would have had a follow-up question. And and uh your uh answer was really important for the our conversation today and for me, just understanding how you're moving today. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

How are you today?

SPEAKER_01 1:00

I'm quite well. I'm quite well. It's uh an exciting day today for a number of reasons, uh, and not just because of uh the amount of coffee that I've put in my body. Uh, but it's an exciting day. And so I'm uh the sun is shining, I'm above ground, and I'm looking forward to what's going on today, nonetheless of which is the the homework that I might have as a result of the work that you end up doing today.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Stuff rolls rolling into your direction after I'm done with it. And your mental health?

SPEAKER_01 1:29

My mental health is on the rise, is on is on the rise. I have uh here in the new year, been working out more. I know it's only the first little bit of the year, and so uh how much of how much of the work are you really been doing? But I really, as you all remember from last year, I wanted to make sure that I put into my physical health because my physical health connects to my mental health. And so we're on the rise, we're on the come up. We've done we've done really well so far. Uh, and so uh it's it's good. How's your mental health, Jamie?

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Connected. I've been consistently working out. I've said it a few times and I've still been working out, which feels good, and that does impact my mental health. It impacts how I'm able to sustain and navigate stress and uh reduced headaches, etc. So my mental health is good. And remind me to tell you later, um, I think I've told you before, maybe not our listeners, that I haven't always had great experiences at the doctor's office. And um I just went, it's probably been almost three years, two to three years since the last time I went because it wasn't a great experience, but I know that it's important for me to go and get checked up. And um the doctor was it was it was a nurse practitioner. Um, and and they were awesome.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Huh. That's good to hear.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Yeah, I feel great about the way that they supported me and my concerns again, very different from previous doctors.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

I'm glad for that. Uh and I'm really glad for that. And I'm not just because I I want that for you, but like what I have been thinking about the last couple of weeks with regard to our healthcare system and what happens. Uh, we've said on this pod before, or and you've heard me say, in order to be healthy, you have to be wealthy in this country. Um but it in in addition to that, I have been thinking most recently that you could get one person on their bad day and they could have ripples all the rest of your life at a at a healthcare system. And and I have the data to show it. So when you when you and I talk later, uh we should we should talk about that because uh it's almost by chance that you got you ran into a nurse practitioner who treated you the way that you wanted to. Not that there's anything wrong with nurse practitioners as a whole, it's us as a people. And so I'm glad that you actually got that because it's not everybody had what you had.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

And I'm dealing with the situation that you named right just just now that my kids, their doctor referred them to a specialist to get a consult. The specialist during the consult, you could tell life was happening to them, something was happening to their car, they were trying to get it towed, and so they had to keep going in and out of the room. And I was trying to be very empathetic and like, yeah, cool, it's all right. I think at one point I was like, Do you want us to reschedule? Um, but the specialist essentially said, like, they're fine, they don't need additional consult or surgery, everything's fine. Um fast forward a few months, their dentist was like, You should really take them to see a specialist. And I'm like, interesting, you said that. Their doctor said the same thing, and I took them, and the specialist was like, they're fine. And the dentist was like, I think you should get a second opinion, second opinion. So then we went back, we happened to be back at the their doctor, doctor, who originally referred him the first time. And the doctor was like, Well, I think they're fine. Three different people saying three different things, and now I'm like, I don't know what to do, shouldn't do it. Continue to seek out information because there's additional costs to that, right? Oh, to get second opinions. And I want to be empathetic that life happens and doctors aren't perfect a hundred percent of the time. Yes, which we've talked about on the pod before.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

The stakes matter and your role, the mistakes, the stakes are higher for some people. The last few podcasts I've taken us on a different journey, so apologies.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Interestingly, you actually gave me a great uh way to transition into the topic we had talked about we were going to talk about today, when thinking about how high the stakes are. When a doctor, a nurse practitioner, a surgeon, and maybe even a dentist or an orthodontist, when they are dealing with what they're dealing with, and and people uh give them resistance or pushback when they say, when someone says, no, stop, don't, I don't agree with you, or I'm getting a second opinion, it doesn't always feel good. Right? Like we hold up our medical professionals, our science professionals, uh, with this professional regard, and we tell them, we tell them, like, you're the boss, you're the person in charge, you're supposed to know all this information because all the training that you've had, tell us what to do, and we're gonna do it. When you and I are in a room conducting business, working to impact the lives of of individuals or communities, we also get pushback. We'll get from time to time people telling us that what we're talking about isn't right, isn't good, isn't uh positively influencing progress. And I wonder that the stakes are different, but I I wonder if they really are. And so here's the question I have for you, Jamie, uh, to get us started on this. What do you think resistance or pushback means when we receive it in our work?

SPEAKER_00 6:53

A variety of things it could mean. For some people, I think it could mean uh fear. For some people, I think it could be uh misunderstandings. For some people, it's a challenge to their ego. For some people, they might be contributing to constructive dialogue. So a variety of things.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

I don't um would you ever recommend somebody get a second opinion from another DEI practitioner after hearing from you or I?

SPEAKER_00 7:26

I don't know that I would recommend it. And yet I what you and I offer is we might not be the DI people for you, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

That's not what I thought you were going to say. You're right, and I've I thought you were going to say you and I have been the second opinion for a lot of folks who have had a DEI experience, and and we go, let's look at it this way. Consider what you just went through this way under this uh with these lenses, and it's starkly starkingly different from advisement or experience that these folks have gotten.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

What I was thinking about as you said that is I don't know how many how often it has been, but I do believe people then have gotten a second opinion after us. In some ways for the DI work, it might that might just be what needs to happen is the first person comes in and sort of rips the band-aid off metaphorically. And then we need we need those people so that the second people can come in and provide a little salve, a little salve.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

I don't know how to say that.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Save the day. Or it it's like it's a bit of the not maybe not save the day, but like, all right, this first person, whether you like them or not, they said the things that you needed to hear and it hurt and it sucked. And now we're gonna come in here and because you've got that like hard stuff out of the way, or not even hard or that shock factor out of the way, we can really dig in. And so I I want to take back it's not save the day. It's uh because really think about it this way the first people really saved the day because they ruffled people's feathers enough that the shock value is over. Now let's dive in and the shock value is no longer there.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

I don't know. I I I don't know if the ripping of the band-aid is a positive thing, as you have named it. I appreciate that you named it. And what I was saying, uh just to stick with your metaphor, the salve, right? The the the ointment, the neurosporin, the wet paper towel. Do you ever use that when when you got hurt at school and somebody gave you the the nurse or whatever gave you a wet paper towel to put on it?

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah, I still do that with my kids.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Oh, uh, sorry. Uh to put their business out there in the world.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Because they're gonna be fine. Yeah and it's like this like what's the what's the medical term for it?

SPEAKER_01 9:47

The placebo effect.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. That wet paper towel, it's a little colder than your skin. Uh, and all of a sudden you take it off and you can go back playing dodgeball. That just is a fantastic uh implementation. Anyway, sometimes the ripping off of the band-aid, sometimes the shock value, especially in a DEI training, is irreparable. Is when they come to our sessions, they the they they show up with their arms crossed, they show up with their guard up, and then and you and I have had situations where you can tell that person was ready to fight, um, metaphorically, uh verbally. And if they had just had their hand held the first time, if if they had just not had the band-aid ripped off, but maybe a little bit of uh woo-wooing before that session, then when they come to us, they're not they're not arms crossed, but they're they're a little bit more open. And and the resistance that we can get, the pushback we get is a step back. I always feel like there's there's a step back that we have to take to undo the harm of the first person. And and so when they when folks come and they get either when they come to us and get a second opinion, we are the second opinion. Now I'm undoing the work of somebody who probably had great intentions but had horrible impact. And when folks go and get a second opinion after us, I wish I knew. I wonder, I wonder what happens. We don't often people don't come back and say, well, I went to this DEI training, this is what they said after you. I haven't had that experience that I can remember. But I my hope is though, something aligns. Something, something that they heard or were advised on connects to what we are saying. Because I think you and I do a really good job of trying to not necessarily be universal, but give folks to to build on and to understand in their world that that makes sense so that they they aren't pushing back. But maybe you see it differently. Maybe that that resistance is a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

I imagine that's and and we've talked about this before. Are we too soft of practitioners? And so I don't know that other practitioners would see it as harm being caused.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

They might say, like, no, I was giving them the truth, and we need to be more honest, and you know, all that other practitioners who do it differently than us might say. And so that's why you and I value this about our work that we take the approach of where is the organization on their journey? And we don't necessarily have a plug and play. And so if they're ready to start talking about anti-capitalism, anti-oppression, white supremacy, cool, let's dig in. And what we know is most organizations aren't ready to start talking about those things day one. And that's where the pushback comes from. In many ways, we have to be thinking about this work as crawl, walk, run work. And we can't expect people to start running on day one or talking about white supremacy on day one if they haven't even talked about biases or, you know, looked in the mirror and reflected on some of their own identities yet. And so I think that we become the second consult more often than not because other organizations start at places on the journey where the company is not ready for and people in the room are not ready for. Do I think, you know, our main question for today of is pushback a sign of progress? You know, when I texted you this about a potential topic, where it came, where the question came from for me is similar to the what you say around all press is good press.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

And DI is everywhere right now. You turn on CNBC, and there's this company shout out to Costco, that has told their shareholders they remain committed to the important work of diversity, equity, and inclusion. You have a host of other companies that are pulling back drastically the horrific wildfires that are happening in California. All of those who have family friends and are in California, um, my thoughts and prayers are for sure with you. And and and yet you still have people while this tragedy is happening, blaming it on the E, blaming it on the their belief that there needed to be more white firefighters on national news media and saying, this is why the fires have happened. That that could be a sign for many people that we've not made progress. And back to what you say, all press is good press, even bad press. And so do we feel the same for DI? DI is being talked about nationally. Um, and is it good? Because all press is good press.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

That's an interesting challenge to my slogan. Because there is such resistance in our society to diversity, equity, and inclusion, and DEI as a as an acronym, as a as a taboo, then maybe we're DEI is going to be illegal in in the United States. Uh it has been illegal before. It may happen to be illegal in another way. And if you're not sure, those of you who are listening, what I'm talking about, send send us an email, impact at seven-focus.com, and we can talk more about that. What I mean by DEI being illegal. What you're saying is is a really interesting, because if all press is good press and DEI becomes illegal, then what's the positivity about that? What's the goodness of that? And that's an interesting question. And I'm I don't often call myself an optimist. And at the same time, my responses to that, what happens if DEI becomes illegal? There's an optimistic response. It's not going to be fun. It's not going to be easy. Uh, and at the same time, there's a challenge in that that I will face with my chest up and my chin out when and if it happens. So, to your to your point, whether it is a fire department chief who has marginalized identities or a mayor of an all-black city or majority black city who is blamed on why a bridge got knocked down, this is not new. And it's indeed not news. If you're naming the fact that a person is black, brown, queer, uh uh wears a hijab, and that's a reason why uh tragedy happened, uh, you got some work to do. Your journalistic integrity is in jeopardy. Uh, but that's not what we came to talk about. It's the resistance that we that we did come to talk about. And and maybe that's what needs to happen. Maybe that's where we are right now, Jamie, is that in order to grow, in order for us to educate, there has to be some kind of resistance. And if someone doesn't push back in one of our trainings, then it sounds like everybody in the in the training is the choir. And as much as I love to preach to the choir, if there is no resistance, how can there be progress? And so I think that that's where I'm landing. I don't know if that's where you wanted me to go with that, but I I I'm thinking about that now. And and maybe pushback or resistance is a sign or maybe a signal, maybe not a sign, but a signal of oncoming progress.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

So we're getting a lot more attention. And then part of it came from too that if it wasn't progressing, I don't know that we would that people would care. And so there the fight against equity and inclusion is because it's working. Because we're seeing more black and brown Fortune 500 CEOs, we're seeing more racial, ethnic, gender diversity on boards. We're seeing more representation in TV shows of traditionally and historically marginalized identities. And so it's it's working. And that's why there is so much pushback. If it wasn't working, I don't know that people would care.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Yeah, I guess you're right about that.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

I do think it's a sign of progress as much as it sucks. Because where have we seen other examples of pushback and yet progress has been made?

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Well, this is not necessarily pushback, but it is it is to the point of uh either friction or tension. And you often bring up the analogy or the metaphor of uh working out that we don't build muscle uh when it's easy, that that in order to build a particular muscle, you have to be under, there has to be time under tension. It has to be heavy or at least uh provide some pushback and resistance to our pulling or our pushing. And so you often say that that's part of the work, or yeah, part of the work in a workout is the resistance. So that was the first thing that came to mind for me.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

It came to my mind too, actually, but I was trying to think of something else because I only bring it up, but thank you for bringing it up for me. But yes, and and actually, I believe this to be true, but correct me if I'm wrong, your muscles have to break. That's what the soreness is caused, is the fibers break to rebuild stronger. In some ways, we're at a breaking point. I don't know if the it's we're all the way there yet, but we're breaking some stuff, some muscles and some fibers. Um, and if we stop because it gets hard, if we stop because I'm too sore today, there's danger in that. Not that we shouldn't take rest days. Rest days are important. And if I'm like, you know what, my I just am sore all the time, it's just not working for my body. What we can be thinking about is maybe I'm not doing the deadlift right um or the curling right to ask myself if I'm not seeing any progress, maybe it's because I'm not doing it the right way. Um, and I've had that reflection myself over the past few weeks. I've been working out a lot and I'm not seeing some of the changes I want to, and I had to reflect on, well, maybe I'm not working out hard enough, maybe I'm not doing it long enough, maybe I'm not using light enough weights and I'm using too heavy weights, which is back to what we talked about earlier. Where are you at on the journey? If I'm using two heavy weights and I'm just swinging the weight and I'm not actually focusing on form, that has a negative impact as well.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

When you were asking for an example, is my brain was racking, I was racking my brain, racking weights. I was racking my brain thinking about the different movements toward humanization and freedom, access and inclusion that are out there. And I'm thinking about what was the resistance point? What was it like at that moment? Uh was it did it feel like resistance and pushback and progress, or did it feel like uh degradation and desolation and here in the United States, women's suffrage, women's access to employment. I'm thinking about integration, racial integration, and well, segregation and integration in the different places in society, nonetheless of which is unemployment. I'm thinking about the liberation of sexual orientation and uh ideology around who you're allowed to love and how you're allowed to love, and and that connects to what has come to the light in the media even more now with regard to gender identity and the fluidity of gender identity and also the social constructs that uh bind gender identity, which connects to orientation, which connect to uh how families are supposed to be uh designed, which connect to the white supremacy concept of perfection um and what that really means. So before I can go further on that diatribe, I'm thinking through how did those movements toward liberation and humanization receive the pushback that was happening at that time? And did it sound like progress? Did it feel like progress? Because we are at a moment in time right now, Jamie, where it doesn't feel like progress, it feels like harm. But maybe we're tearing muscle fibers. And on the other end of this workout, uh at the other end of this response to resistance, we'll be stronger, we'll be better for it. We'll have seen the results. We just don't know right now what it's gonna look like or how it's going to be. And that's what makes it feel uncertain. That's what makes it feel uncomfortable. That's what makes us want to quit.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Meaning I can't just work out for six months and see changes in my body and stop working out and expect it to be to not then change again. And so we will always have to be thinking about service to others, ensuring that everybody has access, is uh is seen as a human being and has access and opportunity. And so it will be a constant pursuit. The resistance may not always be what we're experiencing today. It hasn't always been what we're experiencing today, it's been worse in many ways. We just have to remind ourselves that the workout matters and it's important and it is having an impact. And so just keep working through the hard. I mean, it's fascinating, you know, and I I'm sure most runners would tell you the same thing. Doing a five mile never gets easier, but you recognize the value and importance of of running five miles. Um and for some people it is easier than for others, but um, you know, it's not always um easy to run multiple miles, even if it's something that you have done consistently. So you just gotta remember your why and and what you're doing it for. And when we get pushback, I don't know that it's a to remember that it's working, but pushback is a sign of something.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

And explore what it is. And sometimes again, it might be I'm doing it wrong. We're approaching this work in ways that not that is not having um the impact we hoped it to have. And so it's important for us to always be reflecting on that. Where is the pushback coming from? And it's not always a signal that you need to stop doing the work. Maybe you just do it differently. So what would you want to leave our listeners with today as they experience and or see pushback to this work?

SPEAKER_01 23:53

No, well, I think the first thing that I'm thinking about is be careful what you say because it may be used against you in a in a podcast in the future. And so all press is is good press. I have to stick with it because I said it and it's been recorded a number of times. So now I'm just really thinking through um, did I mean it? And if I if I meant it, then uh what does that mean? That's that's one thing that would let people uh go away with. I'm I'm just in a contemplative state right now when thinking about this question. And when you text me about this question, I I knew I was in for an argument and and I find myself in more puzzled or content contemplative space than I thought I would in thinking about today's uh topic, because while I agree that resistance can be a signal and a positive uh thing to respond to, right? We if you get a little resistance, that means you're doing something, it's a signal of something. And if the right person is providing said resistance or in the right way, then it can be very, very useful. It could be a tool in a training, in the boardroom, um, in the, you know, at the water cooler or in a Microsoft Teams meeting or whatever. And at the same time, at the wrong type of resistance, or if it lands in such a way that it's detrimental to the work overall, the conversation that we're trying to have, the point that we're trying to make, then what? And that's the thing I'm contemplating is when folks are talking about DEI should go away, or that it's harmful and it's the reason why our country or our relationships or our world or our communities are what they are. Some people are going, wait, is that the case? And and and trying to trying to understand from that perspective and that point of view, and that's a step in a direction that I think is going to be really detrimental to how we move as an organization and as a as a country. So I'm just contemplating. That was more of a rant than it was anything. And I don't know that our listeners are actually going to be able to do anything with that. So as I collect my thoughts and we uh begin to end today's episode, I think the one thing I want folks to be considering is that you need to be ready for pushback. Because if nothing else, we've we've understood, we understand that the work that we are doing to humanize, to include, and celebrate people, especially those who have been marginalized and uh treated as less than for so long, for centuries, there's going to be resistance because there are systems at work that need those folks to continue to be marginalized for those systems to continue to work in the way that they do. You're gonna get resistance. The question that I would have everybody consider is what are you gonna do when it happens? How are you gonna use it? How are you gonna respond to it? How prepared are you? That's what I'd leave us with.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Yeah, I I don't know that I would add anything different. Um, maybe explore your own resistance and and the resistance of others and uh how I started the podcast. Try to um consider is it fear, is it misunderstandings, is it lack of knowledge? Um and that's where we have the greatest when you think about sphere, our sphere of control and influence. I can't control the national media necessarily about how they're portraying DI. What I can control is my relationship with my coworker. I can't control them that is resisting and and I can explore there um and and learn more about the root of the resistance and and even honestly explore the own route of my resistance to um the people who are anti-woke, uh anti-woke agenda. And not that I have to become best friends with them, but why am I resisting wanting to talk to the person that's wearing a Make America great shirt again next to me on the bus or whatever it may be? Not saying you have to talk to that person, but you get to explore your own existence as well.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Thank you very much. This has been the Beyond the Training podcast, where we move from really good intentions and talking about what we're trying to do and into great impact. And often that means that we've got to solve uh sort of some really big questions, we've got to contemplate on some really big ideas so that the impact that we are having on our communities, on our relationships, and the work that we're trying to do in the ways that we intend, so that those two things align. We're hopeful that this is helpful for you and we want to hear from you. We'd love your feedback at an email impact at seven-focus.com, send us an email, or reach out to us on all of our social media or wherever you're listening to this pod. Rate us, send us a note about how you feel about it. You might even be able to text, depending on the version that you're you're listening to. Because we want to hear from you and we want to interact. And so we will see you all next time.