Who Gets to Tell the Story? Media, Justice & Community

In today's episode, our hosts are honored to have Jen and Jason from the Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition (CCJRC) along to talk about the way a stereotypical narrative of misappropriation and irresponsibility was told about people working to help lift others out of their circumstances with the criminal legal systems.  
Again, we find that even the best intended reporting and storytelling can have grave impacts on the very people they are designed to serve.  So, Jen and Jason help us change the narrative, for the better.

Check out the Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition here - https://www.ccjrc.org/

Contact Jen at - Jennifer@ccjrc.org

Contact Jason at - Jason@ccjrc.org

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Beyond the Training podcast. This is Mr. Robert. And Jamie's not here right now, but I've got two awesome guests that are joining us who will introduce themselves in just a moment. Beyond the Training is all about really thinking through great intention and the things that we think we're gonna that are gonna land on our communities and working towards even greater impact. And today's conversation is no different. So, Jason and Jen, how are y'all? Welcome into the space.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Yeah, thank you so much for having us. I'm so excited to be here. Feeling good.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Really happy to be here, man. Thanks for allowing us into your space. I've missed being on the mic with you, my friend.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

No doubt. Hopefully, our listeners know about our therapy Thursdays. Uh, but you've had to be local to have heard that. So um, we definitely need to get back into that. Jen, will you tell us a little bit about who you are? Uh what are you doing in the community? And then Jason will ask you the same in just a second.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Sure. Uh so I about three months ago, I was hired on at the Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition, where Jason was already working as a communications coordinator for that team. And it's a dream come true for me that uh the organiz the work that CCJRC does in Colorado has been inspiring to me for years, as I've I do a lot of legislative advocacy in general through other volunteer uh things that I've been involved in throughout the years and just really respect that respect that team so much. So to be able to come on board and work for them and do do the things I love and get paid to do the things that I would do anyway, uh is such an exciting opportunity. And I I'm absolutely over the moon about it. So that's uh the main thing that I'm working on right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Right on. And what do they say? Uh, if you love what you do, you don't work a day in your life. Is that the the quote?

SPEAKER_00 1:54

That's felt true for me these last three months. It's uh I'm walking on air, getting projects that uh I can't believe I get to do this uh and get paid for it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Well, and our listeners can't see it, but they could probably hear you smiling through the microphone. So I I definitely believe that that's how you've been feeling. Thank you for the work that you're doing, the work that you will do, and thank you for being here on the show. Jason, uh, why don't you tell our listeners, if they haven't heard from you before, who are you? Uh, what are you in the community? What's uh what should we know about you?

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Jason Vitello, he, him, his, Aquarius. Uh I am also here representing the Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition, but I've worn many hats uh over the years in community. Uh I have been a mental health provider, a public health professional, past president of the Colorado Public Health Association, it's first health equity director, health equity officer, public health practitioner at the public health institute at Denver Health, uh adjunct professor and alumnus at the Graduate School of Social Work at the University of Denver, also a uh state, local, national speaker and facilitator, DEI consultant, uh critical race theorist, dun dun dun uh and other things. But uh yeah, uh primarily rocking with the Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition and uh our primary uh mission is to end mass incarceration and the overutilization of the criminal justice system and to really promote uh community-based strategies for uh public health and safety.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Oh man, so your CV is about as long as my arm. I was gonna ask like, is there anything that you don't do or haven't done? Because there are actually and there are things that I know about you that you didn't even name uh that are in your personal and professional career. So uh maybe that's we'll say that for another pod. Uh thank you for the work that you've done and the work that you will do and for being.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

I'm learning how to uh I I also try to practice uh conscious masculinity by by bucking gender stereotypes traditionally associated with what it means to be a man. And I do this by having overcommitment issues. But actually I didn't know where you were going with that. Okay. I've been trying to uh be more intentional about my my yeses and no's. So I've actually scaled back quite a bit.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

I I love that for you. I love that for you.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

And so does my family and loved ones.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Yeah, conscious, shout out to the fam, conscious masculinity. I'm about to think about that. That I every time I come on the pod, I have like three or four things that I'm like, that's gonna be another podcast episode. So I just we're just gonna keep that as a note. So, as we always do in the Beyond the Training uh podcast, uh Jamie and I talk about our mental health because we know how important that is to the work that we do and our ability to do the work uh consistently, especially when socially, politically, uh, and communally, our worlds uh are are steadily and increasingly being distracted from being uh we're being distracted from being able to focus on our mental health. So uh Jen, I'll ask you first, how's your mental health?

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Uh yeah, my mental health uh it's so interesting. I a couple of months ago, about six months ago, I was uh I'm 55 years old or will be 55 very soon. Happy birthday. And I was uh diagnosed with ADHD, which I guess I've had my whole life and didn't realize. Uh so uh through the um the miracle of pharmacology and um the miracle of therapy, uh my mental health is probably better than it's ever been in my life. So that was a big, big realization for me and a big it explained a lot of things about the course of my life that uh that made a lot of sense. So it when your life makes sense, you feel better about it.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

No doubt. And and that's gonna make the next 55 uh even more clear.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Yeah, I hope so.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Yeah, for sure. Jason, same question. How's your mental health?

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Um, thanks for asking. Uh for those that don't know, Robert and I used to have uh our own radio show every month uh on the drop local hip hop station here in Denver uh called Therapy Thursday, where we got to come together uh every month to talk about uh mental health, uh community mental health. And this is a topic near and dear to both of us, and you know, it's not something we I think as helpers and healers in the community uh always do a great job at, you know, attending to our own uh mental health and wellness. Um it's been a rough year for me personally, uh but I can say that uh because of that, I think I've done a relatively good job. I could always do better, but a relatively good job um trying to be more mindful about uh doing my own work and and traditional and non-traditional approaches, and that's gonna be a big part of the conversation that we have today. Uh but yeah, uh it's been a rough year, but because of that work, uh I'm in a better place than I would be otherwise.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

I love that both of y'all are doing the work. Uh that's part of it, right? Being able to say out loud that there are things that I need and I'm working on it. And if you can do it for yourself, that's great. And then you certainly, Jason, you've been in spaces where you have been that uh resource for people uh or you provide resources for people. So uh thank you for naming that. That's it's really important for us to continue that in the conversation. And is actually what I wanted to get started with in our conversation today. There are a lot of folks who don't even have the opportunity to pay attention to their mental health and and are a part of systems uh that are designed to keep their mental health and their physical health, their mental physical wellness, um uh in a space of dehumanization. And on our pod, we talk about how what we what you might call diversity, equity, inclusion work or training or consultation in the way that we do it is an opportunity to humanize in the industry that you're in, in the work that you do, uh, in the relationships that you have in the communities that you're in, and uh and learning about what you all are working with in CCJRC. I I know that you're working with folks for whom humanization isn't even on the table. And and so I'm curious if you would talk a little bit more about how you all go beyond just training people, because I know you do, you do some of that training, but you go beyond that to try to get to human to humanization for folks who it doesn't seem to be on the table with. And if it's a mental health conversation, great, but I think it's probably even deeper than that.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

For sure. So the again, the mission of CCGRC is uh end mass incarceration, but also uh reduce the footprint of the criminal legal system in Colorado. And we really do that by expanding the circle of of human concern. Uh oftentimes people don't uh care about people that they can't see, and that includes people who are uh in cages, right? Uh it includes the unhoused, it includes people who might be drug users, the the stigmatized, uh, the forgotten, the last, the least and the left behind. We believe in investment, public investment, uh in uh real strategies that will promote actual public health and safety because what we have been doing is not working, right? We've uh our incarceration rates have increased by over 600%. Uh we've invested a trillion dollars since the 1970s on a drug war. And we have uh what do we have to show uh after these investments, right? And that's that's money's not invested in education, that's money's not invested in housing, that's money's not invested in uh mental health and health, um, and so on. So uh and that's a big part of what we came to talk to you about today because there is a program here in Denver, um Caring for Denver, and Jen's gonna talk a little bit more about that program specifically and our interest in it, and then the series of articles that came out from uh CPR uh that attacked this program and um some of the specific concerns we had around uh the problems um in those articles. So I'll I'll kick that to Jen.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Well, I so before before you go, Jen, real quick, Jason, you name you said the word public health a couple of different times. And and so for the parts of this conversation, when you say public health and thinking about those who are incarcerated or involved in the criminal legal system, as I heard you say it, uh would you just define public health so we know what you mean?

SPEAKER_01 10:48

So public health is uh the way I like to conceptualize public health uh is uh you know, you have the medical model, right? So you say there's a village and uh there's a well in the middle of the village, and everyone drinks from the well 100 people and 98 of them get sick. Right? The medical approach is line everyone up, give them some medicine, right? To to treat the sickness, public health is what's going on with that well, right? So public health is about prevention and figuring out uh what are the factors in in public health we call them the social determinants of health. Uh, what are the factors that uh are making people sick to begin with, right? And we know in in our country, and there's there's a lot of overlap between the social determinants of health and the social determinants of crime and safety. Right. And if you ask someone uh close your eyes and uh envision what uh what is a safe community. You can ask uh you can go to uh the next room and ask a question, the same question, slightly different, what is a healthy community, right? And you're gonna get a very, very similar response from both rooms. Right? No one's gonna say a safe community is a community where you have armed police on every corner, uh drones overhead, uh tanks, police tanks, or cruisers rolling down the street, police helicopter, right? No, they're gonna say uh green spaces for kids.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Yeah, green grass. That was the first thing I was thinking about.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Access to mental health, access to substance use and recovery, uh, access to health care, but also places to uh buy fresh vegetables and produce and and so on, right? So we know how to do this. Uh it's just a matter of what we choose to to invest in, right? And the social determinants of health. It's more than personal choices because we fixate a lot in our society on the choices that people make, right? And there's a lot of overlap too. Well, people are locked up because they made bad choices, or people are set, they made bad choices, but in public health, we also focus a lot on well, what chances do people have to begin with? Because not everyone starts out with the same chances, and your choices are often uh confined by the chances that you have in life, and not everyone has the same chance. And we can pretend all we want, but it is not a level playing field. We do not live in a meritocracy, and we do not all have uh access to the same chances uh as everyone else.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Awesome. Uh what's going on with that? Well, uh, I'm gonna take that one, put it in my pocket. I appreciate that. All right. So, Jen, uh Jason set you up to to really help us think programmatically through what y'all are are working on. And I'd also, you know, I know you're new in your role, so I'm curious about how your role fit into that work as well.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Um, how my role fits into this work is that we need to tell a different story about safety, about um public safety, because how the government defines it or how the media defines it is cops, courts, and cages. And real public safety that might be a tiny part of it, but it's actually it need the the lens needs to really widen to see everything that Jason was talking about, right? So um, you know, healthy communities, uh, people who have opportunities, all of those things. And then then we need to tear down some real systemic barriers for folks to be safe and healthy, right? So um the stories that we tell about safety, about public safety, uh are so critical that we brought that we brought we need to broaden that lens so that people have a different understanding of what what it means to be safe. Because the stories that we internalize from the media, from the government, those things have implications at the ballot box. They have implications in terms of what what kinds of things we support. So, yeah, so we just need to to tell a a much broader story about public safety.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

And so help me with that. That's that help us with that. What is a story that is being told right now that either our government is telling or our media is telling us about safety? And what is the broader conversation about that? And and for those of uh folks who are listening, when we talk about uh getting beyond the training in our focus, uh seven focus work, uh intention versus impact, this is, I think, where we're about to head, right? That well, Jason might actually challenge me. Uh so Jason, stay on mute because I know what you're you're about to challenge me and what I'm about to say. My guess is the government doesn't want us to have unsafe communities. My guess is that the media does not want us to have unsafe communities. We could even have a conversation about whether or not our police police systems want us to have safe communities or not. My guess is the intention is to create some form of safety. The impact of those systems, the what'd you say, cops, cages, courts and cages, courts, cops, courts, and cages is actually a pretty stick well, as as Jason was talking about earlier. So the question, I'll go back to the question what is the story that's being told? And what's a broader, more accurate version of that story?

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Sure. Uh I can give you a really specific example about this, a recent example. So uh last month, uh Colorado Public Radio came out with this investigative series called Cash for Caring. Um it was an expose, like an investigative report about uh the Caring for Denver Foundation that basically accused the foundation and its grantees of misusing millions of dollars of tax, millions of taxpayer dollars, right? Um, so just so you know some background, caring the Caring for Denver Foundation was created in 2019. Um, and it's funded by a voter-approved sales tax that provides grants to organizations that offer behavioral health care and substance recovery programs, mental health support, violence interruption. And it's it's supposed to be earmarked, especially for those who might not otherwise have access. And it was also and it was also specifically marketed to the public when they voted on it as being an opportunity to be innovative, like to fund innovative programs in this area. This fund was uh, as I said, voter approved by a huge margin. So Denver clearly has an appetite for Denver voters clearly have an appetite to fund these kinds of these kinds of things. And since its inception, the foundation has overseen about 450 grants that total over $170 million. A lot of those grants go to like small community-led organizations that are doing deep work in very marginalized communities and doing you know more innovative work as well. So this series came out and it specifically targeted a lot of BIPOC-led small community organizations and organizations led by people who have past criminal legal involvement. So they have lived experience in criminal with the criminal legal system, specifically people who are working in re-entry programs and substance use recovery. And that's very typical for folks who work in those in those types of fields to have lived experience because you're a credible messenger to the folks that you're caring for, right? Um, but the reporter made it sound like it was a gotcha that like he was uncovering the fact that these people who were running these programs had had criminal records or that they, you know, had substance use misuse in their past and things like that. When I read it, I was so horrified. Number one, that CPR, which is a, you know, you expect it to be community-based and be pretty progressive, that they would come out with something that's so stigmatizing and also just the mischaracterization of people, you know, just detailing their criminal records and saying that, you know, basically implying very strongly that they got away with something, that they defrauded the taxpayers, that, you know, that caring for Denver didn't must not have realized that they were giving money, all these, you know, millions of dollars to people who have, you know, criminal records or who um who don't have you know clinical experience, right? Right. Um so we were really outraged to read those kind of articles because, like Jason said, one of CC, one of the key parts of CCGRC's mission is community reinvestment. Um, you know, the when you're tearing down systemic barriers, you have to build something in its place. And we really believe that community is where you build to replace those uh those systemic problems. So um, so we were just horrified for that reason, but also because the misrepresentations really stigmatizing for people with lived experience and really targeting small community-led organizations and saying that that that the fact that we gave all these millions of dollars to these small community organizations and they haven't fixed our suicide rates, they haven't fixed our overdose crisis, you know, they haven't our mental health. Uh we still have mental health issues in Denver. It just seemed very unfair because they weren't also taking to task the institutional uh grantees, even of caring for Denver, or the things that our city government funds. You know, 35% of our city budget in Denver is, you know, the Department of Public Safety. So they weren't asking them why they hadn't solved crime yet, despite having million having millions. dollars right so um yeah so that's just a specific example of the store of a story that's being told that's that's really really harmful and and really needs needs some correction and a and a much broader lens.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

The further marginalization of a group of people who are out trying to do the work that we've all decided, you mentioned the Denver voters that they've all decided needs to be done. And so when uh providing for an opportunity for that to happen then we villainize the folks that are actually trying to redo uh or undo uh these systems that you that you were mentioning. So it's there's so many things that that pop into my mind and Jason I want to definitely see or hear what it is that you want to add to that. But Jen, real quick one, it's should we shouldn't be surprised that uh when people who have been a part of the criminal legal system get a little bit of opportunity that the system would bite back. Not that CPR uh Colorado Public Radio is a part of the system uh traditionally but I think we can think about the media that way uh it's interesting that uh there would be any sentiment about people with a criminal record being in charge of anything because uh depending on when we hear this this uh podcast, uh a number of our politicians who have been convicted of many crimes will be a part of the government, the US government, not just here in uh local Colorado, local Denver, Colorado. But then the the thing that I think is the most disturbing about the way that you describe that is is that you look to that media, that public media center for something even more even-handed, something more liberal or progressive, at least I think is the other words you used, and we're disappointed in that. And I think that's that is something I want to dig more into is is where do we go to get these stories told, if not there. But uh Jason, I know you wanted to add to what Jen was sharing. So please jump in.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Yeah, thanks, Jen. And I just wanted to piggyback on that a little bit. And you know there's uh a brief moment in time in in 2020 um where we as a society seemed like we could not agree on anything. In the middle of a global pandemic we couldn't masks were politicized, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

A moment in time where all of us were a captive audience sitting in our homes and we witnessed the modern day lynching of George Floyd. Right. And we saw the other saw other high profile murders of unarmed black people by by police. You had everyone from the American Public Health Association to NASCAR to the NFL coming out saying uh okay maybe maybe we need to talk about racism. Maybe we need to look at the way we're utilizing uh police in the black and brown neighborhoods right you have white folks in uh Des Moines Iowa holding up BLM signs right and and donating to the their local BLM chapters right but since then uh we've seen a lot of regression and we've seen a lot of ground lost we have right and and now we have this this narrative well we defunded the police which we did not do at le no we didn't no be clear we did not defund the police but this narrative we've defunded the police and now look look what's happened right crime is through the roof we are not safe and these these libs and these leftists and these socialists they've gotten what they wanted and now crime is through the roof we are not safe and we need to fund the police again give them whatever they asked for so we can be safe again right and that's always the narrative right like and that's the grand narrative is that you are not safe it's worse now than it's ever been actually and the only people who can save you and keep you safe and your kids safe are the police right and it's a really really messed up uh incentivization system where no matter what's going on with crime if it's really really bad DOC the Department of Corrections or the Department of Safety get more money if crime's down they're like well we need to keep it that way so give us more money right and and that's true uh for Democrats who are constantly being accused of being soft on crime so sometimes they're worse I'll show you I'll show you how how not soft on crime I am so they'll be even more uh aggressive and we've seen that play out throughout our history um right and you know you mentioned CPR uh it just goes to show that we like to point our finger at the criminal legal system but it is all of our systems it is all of our institutions and this is just another example of how the media is complicit in the construction and the upholding of the narratives and the stories that uh uphold white supremacy and and systems of racism and oppression because to Jen's point um the Department of Safety they get roughly between 35 and 40 percent of Denver city budget every single year right and that's Denver but you could look at any major city in the US and you'll you'll see similar numbers right that's like six hundred and fifty million dollars a year every single year right and how where's their transparency and accountability where's that CPR article where's those receipts how are you spending that money and how come you haven't ended crime yet right after all that investment and again that's not just what we're spending our money on that's what we're not spending it on. We're not spending it on housing we're not spending it on public health infrastructure or uh access we're not spending it on healthcare we're not spending it on early childhood things that research has shown time and time again actually lead to real public safety right and real public health um but and and I might add they also uh the DA's office the police they get that caring they get care substantial caring for Denver dollars as well but CPR did not ask them to see their books right only the small community based organizations right thus perpetuating this narrative that BIPOC people can't manage money right that uh formerly incarcerated people uh can't be trusted to be stewards so now you got Denver voters uh right with seeds planted that uh you know we've been swindled we've been hustled we've been conned right but the thing is is uh and what's really important is and Ben Marcus and CPR should know this is this type of of treatment and recovery exists on a continuum of care.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

So while these individuals might not be licensed that doesn't mean they're not uh credentialed in other ways yeah or effective including more effective right yeah for sure but an extensive body of research demonstrates uh conclusively that very often when it comes to re-entry work and recovery work individuals with lived experience are very often more effective than say uh you know a white LCSW who doesn't have lived experience right yeah um so people with lived and and it's really really disgraceful that you know it wasn't long ago that we did talk about people in this former felons or ex-con right and now we're saying lived experience because we've begun to see the value that that brings right the the the hard knocks and the hard won uh experiences that people come up uh or or or come to have that you know one can't pay for an academic setting right uh that is nonetheless valuable and resonant for people uh in really really meaningful ways and um how and and Robert you'll remember this uh on the radio show where uh for so long people in in in our like our people right like for whom therapy and psychopharmacology and psychotherapy and traditional talk therapy that's not a thing for a lot of us right so a lot of it was uh mental health awareness even um and uh so a big part of what caring for Denver did was um flood the field with credible messengers right and increase access for people uh where the field uh of providers looks like the community that they're trying to serve right yeah and there's something really really valuable like I believe in cultural competency training but uh it's not a substitute for cultural representation facts absolutely and there's a reason why people still go to the grio to understand their history there's a there's a reason why we believe the curandera uh over the doctor it's it's because we know that lived experience that they have um helps them to be able to tell our story or at least be able to help us understand our history in a way that those other folks can't and don't want to uh for that matter and and so Jason and Jen I I really appreciate the showing us and the and and actually the the courage that you're having to be able to say out loud to say the things out loud because it's it's very possible all three of us uh have uh received not have receive retaliation because we're creating a space to tell this other story and that's actually what I want us to do this next portion here is just I want you to to give the other story like what does recovery look like what does uh re-entry look like what does public safety look like um through the opportunities that that uh caring for Denver has been able to give uh to so many of our well some of them are from Denver some of them even aren't aren't from Denver the people that are passing through um but the folks that have been connected to the criminal legal system I really want to hear what that that other side is and and Jen what it is that you were saying earlier is that we have to tell that story. So all of our listeners need to be able to go and say you know I'm thinking about this differently and when we are able to do that and and a number of our our folks do they they hear what we talk about on this pod and they're like you know what I need to share this with somebody either sharing the pod itself or sharing the knowledge that they get so I would love for you to tell this story differently um and maybe Jason this is going to be part of that un uh getting closer to seeing the people uh who are in the ages courts are dealing with the cops I didn't say that in the right order but you know what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

So I'll just give you an example because one of the Cash for caring articles specifically targeted an organization called Paradigm One that does recovery programs in Colorado all over Colorado the Caring for Denver money is specifically earmarked for Denver residents and they do keep really good track of that. So it's people who are referred to them from Denver are who they can spend that caring for Denver money on, right? And Paradigm One is run by a man named the executive director is a man named Gino Svedov he has a long criminal history uh he was imprisoned for many years and he had substance use issues himself and when he got out and found his own recovery he formed this he ended up forming this organization and this program to run recovery home recovery homes that were staffed by people with lived experience with substance use right now they're all certified peers. The article made it seem like these people don't have licenses therefore they're just like you know he's just hiring a bunch of ex-drug addicts you know without any experience just really awful the way they framed it. But these are certified peers who have um recovered from their own substance misuse and run a very interesting and innovative program. So before Paradigm One started running this program that's grant that is funded by Caring for Denver, if you were in a sober living home and you relapsed you would be kicked out immediately right now we all know that relapse or we know now that relapse is a part of the recovery process, right? It's very likely that if you are going through substance use recovery that you're gonna relapse um and if you're kicked out in the middle of the night and um you were ready to like you had a relapse and you were just ready to get right back up on the horse, you know, you're there's no way to do that, right? You're kicked out and then you can't come back again until you have a clean urinalysis, right? Which can take weeks. So instead of you know supporting people through a relapse who really want to still be there and want to still work on their recovery, you know, before this innovative program came along you were just kicked to the street and it can be two in the morning it can be whenever and the same thing for people who are just ready to ready to get into recovery get into a sober living home like if you have some kind of overdose event right can often bring people to the realization like hey I want to get help right now. That's like that moment of connection that moment of clarity that if you don't capitalize on that, if you're not able to capitalize that on that right away, you can lose it and you can lose years again where you're uh back in back in your addiction and you can't uh find your way out of it. But if you can capitalize on that moment of clarity at that moment, then you can really change lives. So again if you're trying to get into recovery at that moment of clarity and you can't you don't have a clean urinalysis now you're waiting for three, four days a week and your situation now has totally changed because you're you're maybe back using using the substance again and that that thought of of recovery is over and uh you know you're back in it. So the paradigm one program it's called the TSZ program through transitional safety zone. It allows you to be in a sober living environment without a clean urinalysis as long as you're working the program and you're not currently using substances, right? So it's a really transformative program that has you know helped save truly thousands and thousands of lives in Colorado. It's filling a huge gap that existed prior to that. It's super innovative that the reporter made it sound like was so like um dismissive and just constantly framing it as uh you know Mr. Svedov says he invented this program where people can use drugs and live in a sober living environment like that's that's not it at all right so um this is an example of a super innovative program that fills an enormous gap in the continuum of care that is comp that is completely discounted for in favor of like more institutional interventions like the reporters just saying we should have spent that money building a big mental health hospital instead right so um so that's just one ex one example of something that we need to be doing that we are currently doing that is now in voters' minds in legislators' minds maybe in other foundations who do grantings minds that it's not it's not worthwhile when it's actually so super critical and just saving people's lives every day.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Yeah that to back to Jason's uh definition of public health don't investigate what's going on with the well just dig a deeper hole uh or make a make a bigger hole uh in in the earth yeah I I thank you for that Jason uh is there something that you would is there another story that you would tell uh to help us think through and and get closer more proximate to the folks that are being dehumanized uh and and the ideas uh that are being vilified or is is it absolutely yeah um mental illness is not new right say it again say it say it for the people in the back is not new right trauma is not new trauma is a part of the human condition and has always been since the beginning of of humankind uh what is new is public health and psychopharmacology and talk therapy right and western medicine um and while very often especially in our society we you know when we talk about black and brown folk in particular you know we we are oppressed we are traumatized we are marginalized but we're more than that man like we bring our own and you alluded to this earlier our own traditions uh and and power uh of culture and and healing and we don't need to go to the people who made us sick for the medicine and one thing the article did get right was that we are indeed still in the middle of a mental health crisis um one which requires more helpers healers and change makers and champions at the table not less right requires uh more of us people with lived experience formerly incarcerated and otherwise uh BIPOC uh and community leaders uh uh at the table rolling up their sleeves uh invested in being a part of the solution and one last point I'd like to make is uh ironically you know this series of articles was about accountability but I I want to see first of all I want to see Ben Marx's uh I don't know like if they have licenses but I want to see his um credentials you know like because I feel like if he turned this thing in as a book report in middle school he'd get a D.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Um the lack of baseline understanding on continuum of care. And uh yeah but I I would like to see CPR not just him but CPR held accountable uh for this reporting uh the the potential damage and the implications around uh this way the seeds that are planted in in the minds of of voters um I have have stopped I've been a longtime supporter of CPR I have stopped my support not going to tell your listeners to do that but at the very least I would encourage you to reach out and let CPR know that uh this type of reporting is not okay. We live in a time of disinformation and misinformation and public media is uh so critically important. You know I expect this from Fox News or or or corporate media but to to have to worry about this type of stuff coming from from CPR is uh really disgraceful right and to denigrate the work of not only people who have overcome the the type of adversity that these individuals have overcome but who are now using it to be an inspiration and to help change and and heal the lives of other people uh to denigrate that is is truly truly disgraceful. And uh CPR needs an answer for that.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

Absolutely and we welcome we always say on this spot we welcome folks to come in on and and uh I will I'll at the end I'll make sure to say how you can get in touch with us but uh we really appreciate both of you bringing such powerful uh words and truth to this power and uh hopefully our listeners actually well I'm gonna ask you all what can our listeners do it I and yes we're not gonna tell anybody to not put their money where they're where uh CPR is at and at the same time I think a tangible takeaway would be really important now that we've gotten a little bit more proximate to folks that we can't see folks that we may not be engaged with and those of us who are listening to or reading uh even our public media we have some questions that we can be asking now to see the different sides to the stories that we might be reading or uh taking in so uh Jen you first then uh Jason after after that what is one thing you would tell folks uh who are really well intentioned and want to have a great impact that they can do when thinking about uh this the work that you all are doing?

SPEAKER_00 43:18

I think the most impactful thing people can do right now is to write letters to CPR asking them about that coverage just questioning it um and also writing to your local policymakers who now have this idea that these community led organizations don't deserve their funding um you know our our hope is in community these are really this this these funds are really it's not just an investment it's a reinvestment because our communities have been robbed you know of this money and they need it back right um they need these resources Back to be a safe community looks like a well-resourced community, period. So if you write to your policymakers, if you write to CPR, talk about how important community-led programming is for mental health, for violence interruption, for substance use recovery, for overdose prevention, for suicide prevention. That we want to see more of these kinds of investments and not less, that we want to see our communities reinvested in and not robbed from. That is right now, I think, uh the most impactful thing that people can do. And we'd also love you to join uh Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition. Get on our website, get our newsletter. It's super dense. We do, we do a lot. And we're gonna be doing more in terms of giving people specific action items that they can take that are really targeted, really meaningful. Um, you know, the one of the one of the things I always like to say, if I'm ever feeling depressed, uh the worst thing you can do is sit around, doom scroll, read the paper. Uh the things that make you feel better are to get out in community and just do something. Almost no matter how small it is, it just makes you uh feel more connected, more alive, uh more empowered, less powerless. So uh we're gonna be bringing that to community, that uh uh opportunities for people to feel empowered and be empowered and uh take important action. So get on our newsletter.

SPEAKER_02 45:45

Yeah, for sure. Thank you for that. Jason, same question. What's one thing that you would have us take away from today's conversation?

SPEAKER_01 45:51

Encourage your listeners to really think critically about what it is that makes them safe, right? And is it armed police in your neighborhood or is it uh you know, uh having a resourced, healthy community? You know, um we know how to do this. Uh it's just a matter of where we do it and the fact that we don't do it everywhere. Uh but yeah, stay tuned. We're we're about to do some big things, deactivating our members and providing opportunities. I know a lot of people are in a space right now, like, oh, I just wanna I wanna I wanna do something. Yeah, sometimes we don't always know what, but uh there'll be plenty to do uh here in Denver anyway, uh in the very near future. So please stay tuned to to what we're up to and there'll be plenty of uh opportunities to plug in. Yeah, you can follow us on social, get on our website. But I want to thank you again for uh for giving us an opportunity to to plug in and and uh to be in your space and on your platform. And hopefully it's the the first of many other conversations to come.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

No, yeah, absolutely, no doubt. So thank you, Jason and Jen, for coming to Beyond the Training. I want to give a few shout outs before we go. Uh, so certainly a shout out to the Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition, CCJRC. I always have to pause on making sure to say that out loud. Uh, I want to give a shout to Paradigm One. I learned a little bit about Paradigm One today in the TSZ program. And it wouldn't be a show with Jason and I if we didn't shout out the Colorado Uh Therapist Collaborative. Uh, for those of you who are here in Colorado, you're looking for that, make sure that you reach out to that. And then shout out to Hard Beauty. They're in Denver. I don't think they were uh supported by caring for uh uh Denver, but they should be. Uh and so uh when this this definitely made me think of them. So shout out to Hard Beauty as well. This has been Beyond the Training, where we move from intent that's really, really good to impact that's demonstrably measurable and tangible in the communities that we're working in. And so if you've got questions about the things that we talked about today, send us an email at impact at seven-focus.com or hit us up on our socials. You can hit up Jason on his socials, and now too. It sounds like maybe Jennifer's got some social. We'll make sure that's all uh in the show notes so that you can have access to those links. And we will see you all next time.