When to Stay Calm and When to Flip the Table

Have you ever been in a conversation and felt so passionately about something, you wanted to flip the table over in exasperation?  Have you ever really done that?  Or, are you the type to pound the table with a fist, maybe in your mind, if nothing else? 
In this episode, our hosts debate the merits of flipping the table, and the potential impacts on learners, ourselves and our community, when our emotions get displayed.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Beyond the Training podcast. Hey Jamie, how are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hi, Robert. I am looking forward to hopefully some snow here in the next few days because it means I can light my fire pit outside. I've been very cautious to not light it for a while because it's been pretty dry. And so I can't wait to burn some fire locks.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

I see. I had no idea where you were going with that because I immediately I wanted to say you can burn your fire pit anytime you want to. Yes, fires are real and and in the places that we live, uh, because the air isn't so dry and we don't have as much participant precipitation as we'd like. You want to be cautious. So thank you for being cautious. I don't know if I hope for you, well, I hope your house gets as much snow as you'd like. I don't want any snow in my near my house. Uh one, because I I don't I got too much things, too many things going on. I gotta get to work. I gotta get to work, and I don't want to have to drive in the snow on the roads, even though I have a four-wheel drive. And my drive isn't that far.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

It's short, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

So yeah, my drive is is short. I just don't want to do it. I just don't want to do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

You sacrifices so I can get some snow.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

You get all the snow. That's what I'm that's my goal for you, uh, is all the snow that you can handle. I was thinking, like, how are we gonna transition this to the conversation we're supposed to be having? And there's absolutely no way to do that. Literally, this week, well, the week that we just had, I had this question, I had this thought about trying to facilitate a conversation where I have a personal stake in that conversation. That, you know, I'm a dude, I'm a father, I'm a brother, I'm a son, um, I'm a partner, I'm a husband. And many of my values and beliefs show up when I am training and uh facilitating. And so I have a personal stake in a lot of those things. And so when when I'm trading and facilitating a conversation about humanization, I'm doing that from a very personal space. I wonder though, for you, Jamie, when you're facilitating, do you ever think about trying to be more neutral? About trying to not be let it be personal. And the reason I'm asking is because when I facilitate from that personal perspective, when the people in the room are not aligned, and the people in the room are are saying what I'm saying is wrong, um, or that they don't believe it, it lights a fire in me that maybe not as productive or as appropriate as it needs to be. And I don't know if I'm supposed to be facilitating from a place of neutrality, but I don't often facilitate or train on things that aren't really personal, personally impacting to me. So I don't know if I'm supposed to do it that way, if I should be thinking about it that way, or maybe for you when you approach this work, are you facilitating from a place of either personal impact or somehow quick response and then I have a question for you.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

As I told you and others in a previous podcast, I'm selfish. So 99.9% of the time, I'm bringing my perspective into the room. Um, even as a facilitator. Now, how I bring that perspective into the room matters and varies. Um, so more often than not, I am not a neutral facilitator. And my question to you is what caused this to come up for you? I'm I'm very curious because I know you have a whole session around what people bring in in their backpacking basis. And so I I just want to explore more about what prompted this question for you.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

This week a training that I was a part of facilitating, uh okay, specifically, we're we're getting into the conversation around citizenship and how uh, as a dimension of difference, citizenship can impact your your whole livelihood in this country here in the United States, probably other countries, but this is the one I live in. And so we talk about how being a citizen grants you access, privilege, the privilege of education, of forwarding your education beyond K-12, and that being able to get a associate's degree, bachelor's degree, a master's degree, PhD, uh gives you the opportunity to make more money. So then you can ascend to different places in our socioeconomics in our society. However, if you are not a U.S. citizen, then you have to pay for your education in a different way. You don't have access to grants and loans, the same kind of grants and loans and scholarships that you would. You don't even have access to in-state tuition in most states and places. And so you have to pay more for that same education, for the same BA, for the same MD. Uh, you're paying more for that. And so that's harder. And you need money to be able to pay for that. And so until you get that more money, then you can't get the degree that's supposed to help you to make more money. Unless you actually do pay for said degree to get more money, you still, without a social security number, have a harder chance getting that job. Even if you did use a whole bunch of high um yield loans to get your degree, it's still even harder to get the job because not everybody is going to hire you, given your work status, either as a deferred action for childhood uh arrivals, DACA recipient or a visa user or recipient, uh someone who's on a work visa of some sort. It's not as easy. So, me, because I have a citizen, because I have citizenship, I don't have a personal stake in the game. But we have a lot of our colleagues who for whom citizenship is a daily battle, a daily challenge that they have to deal with, that they have to consider, that they have to navigate in order to make their lives go on. And so when someone is in the room and saying, is anti, let's say, anti-immigration, or is anti-having people in the in our country that uh do not have uh uh US citizenship, that's a real personal take. That's a real personal take. Not often is somebody gonna say, Well, yeah, black people shouldn't be in the in the workforce. Not anymore. Folks don't no one has ever said that to me. Very often someone will say, Yeah, people who uh aren't from the United States, weren't born here, shouldn't work here, shouldn't be here. And so they have that happen to someone who's just doing their job, trying to train, trying to facilitate, trying to deliver on a message can be really impactful. And so when something like that happens, are they supposed to be neutral or are they supposed to, or is there something else? And and that's why I'm asking, how how would you do it? I how how do you do it? Because I didn't have an answer for this person uh from my colleague that I thought was useful, uh aside from yeah, flip the table and and go go bananas.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

It's impossible to be neutral. We're never neutral. We always have a perspective thought contribution. And while you said you don't have a personal stake in the game, not being neutral in that setting is the definition of an ally and an accomplice. You consistently, I know you want to show up as an ally. So neutrality goes against how you want to show up as an individual and a human being.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

The challenge here, though, for me, Jamie, is that if I in my in my allyship, I would say flip the table or get in there and tell them what it's really like. And that might not be as accessible or safe for someone, not me. And so that might not be the best advisement to give.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

I think it's still solid advisement. And here's why what I had named earlier that while I think that self, I'm selfish, bring myself into every single space, it's how I bring myself into every single space that matters. And so it's not about neutral facilitation, it's about facilitation that gets us, me, closer to the impact I want to have, about facilitation that's aligned with my values. So I don't have a value necessarily that I want to flip the table and punch everybody that disagrees with me. My value is to recognize the humanity in everyone and work to get to everyone to see everyone's humanity. And so, how do I facilitate to get closer to that? And for me personally, neutrality has never been an effective facilitation technique. Partly because I'm not modeling what I want people to do. I want people to show up their authentic selves. And if I sit in a neutral zone, I'm not even modeling what I'm asking people to do. I'm not engaging in practices that I know are valuable around uh when we think about trust generators and how do you build trust and rapport with people in a similar space as you? Selective vulnerability. If I'm neutral, I can't be vulnerable with the people I'm sharing with. I don't know that neutrality is really ever possible for anybody, honestly. In these types of conversations, whether or not you have a stake in the game, you have a perspective.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Oh, yeah. I think sorry, step down.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

And that's having a perspective is not neutrality, I believe. Now, how you engage with that perspective, maybe you keep it in, maybe you share it, maybe you flip the table, maybe you say some choice cuss words, maybe you have dialogue with this other person, but I don't know. Although when I said that out loud, I'm trying to think there's plenty of sports examples where I'm like, I really don't care who wins.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

And so I'm very neutral on that.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Even though you have a perspective about competition. And you said sports. I was trying not to name the actual sport, but yeah, yeah, yeah. You have a perspective.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

And let me just put this out here, Robert. I'm rooting for the Broncos.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Outside of my attempts to not make digs at the Broncos, when I watch that at home, I'm rooting for them when I do watch it.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Yeah, that's the that's the best thing I've heard all day. Uh I've been talking to Jamie all all morning long, and that's the that's the best thing I've heard her say. Thank you for that, Jamie.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Well, thank you for making me feel small. That's the best thing you've heard all day.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

That made me feel great. That yeah, that made me feel great. Because I don't think you did it for the Denver Broncos. I think you did it for me, and that's why that made me feel great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Well, yeah, I don't I don't think the Denver Broncos care if I support them or not.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

That's what I'm saying. So that's why it wasn't about nothing you've said is important. You did that for me, and that feels good. That was a gift, and I I'm I'm appreciating the gift.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

I'm glad that you appreciated it. And um, I don't know that we're ever neutral. We might not just say again our perspectives or thoughts, but we're feeling something and experiencing something.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Okay. So I try, we try not to work in hypotheticals here because we have so many um opportunities, examples uh that that are tangible that we can use. And I say that and I and I don't know that you and I have worked together where I have heard you be in a space where you could have flipped the table. And maybe that's I think that's the question I'm really getting at, Jamie, is how how do you not flip the table? Because there are things that I think would if if someone was to talk about the the mayor of Baltimore was talked about in in in a negative way uh last year, because because of his DE him being a DEI hire, DEI mayor, it was his fault that the bridge got knocked down by that that boat. And and I know I'm avoiding a lot of details, but I'm trying to get through this. If someone were to say, see, that's why black dudes can't be mayor in one of our trainings, what's about to happen is Robert flipping the table. Not the the the actual table, because uh uh physical violence doesn't it's not gonna solve what it is that it's gonna happen, but I'm gonna snap on that person. And there have been times when, as the six foot, 240-pound black dude, I have snapped on people in a room and known that the intended effect is not the one that is necessary for everybody in the room. And everybody in the room goes, Oh my gosh, Robert, just snap. And and I recognize that I have that power and responsibility. And then I've seen you do that, and which is why I want to move to a metaphor, a meta metaphor, I want to move to a hypothetical, because I wonder if there's anything that you believe in so strongly that inside of a training, inside of a keynote that you might be doing, inside of a consultation that you might be doing, if someone were to push back and and give the anti to that, if it would impact you so much that you had to feel like you were going to flip the table. Because what you said was that you had have a perspective. What you said is that you uh are not neutral. I don't know that I've ever seen you respond in a way that was visceral, emotionally visceral, or in a way that even that way I have.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

So what's the question? That that's a sign that I am neutral?

SPEAKER_02 12:52

I don't is there, has there ever been because I didn't want to do hypothetical, has there ever been something that made you want to flip a table in a session in the work that you've done? And then if so, did you, did you snap, did you, did you get emotionally responsive? Or are you doing something that the rest of us that he, me as your as your work partner, uh business partner, I'm not able to see? And then you're regulating in a way that maybe I could share with other people, we could share with other people to do that when there is something that's that impactful.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

And when you say metaphorically flip the table, do you mean on the participants or yes?

SPEAKER_02 13:29

I'm so upset about this thing that you just said, or that this concept, this conversation that's happening right now, all I'm trying to do is humanize and educate and include. And you've said that thing that I have a stake, a personal impactful stake in. And you've said this thing that now dehumanizes me or my people or whatever. Have you had to deal with that?

SPEAKER_01 13:52

I can't think of an example where I've flipped the table metaphorically with participants in the room.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Now, there's been times where we've taken breaks and I've told you like that person is getting on my darn fill in the blank or whatever it is. Like, I'm really frustrated by that person right now. And and I don't know if you remember, it's a particular participant who was talking about being okay being a woman and being okay taking the notes. Yeah. And there's been other situations where I metaphorically have flipped the table and have had really tough conversations with leaders to say what you did with this training was not okay. And how you reacted and approached was not okay, and because it was a direct attack on me and my work. Um so I've had intense direct to the point conversations with people around this work when they've what they've said or done has had a direct impact on me or my identities or similar identities or even other people. So, but maybe what you said, maybe I I don't know, maybe I do regulate my emotions pretty well as a facilitator, but I don't see that as neutrality.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

It's not you trying to be neutral and the perception of those in the room might receive it as such, like, oh, that didn't even bother Jamie. That's that's what I'm getting at is the people in the room receiving uh you in your response. How would they know? That's oh, here we go. Okay, now we're starting to get to it. How would I know if I'm in your training? How would I know that something has pissed you off, that something uh has touched a nerve, that you have a yeah, a personal snake in? Or I guess the other hand is you won't ever know, Robert, because I'm too good for that.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

We've gotten to a place in society where we do feel like we have to have those big emotions to make it seem like something matters to you. That I have to have that I have to be angry and I have to flip the table metaphorically, or I'm not passionate enough, um, or I'm not serious enough about the cause. I don't know that that's fair. That if I'm not, if I'm not angry, if I'm not cussing people out, if I'm not flipping tables, then I'm not serious about the work.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

But so let's back up though, just to be clear, that it was a personally impactful, something that uh uh you have a stake in, a personal stake in. That's that's different than okay. You're saying the same?

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Same thing applies. I have to be angry and flipping tables for you to know that something personally impacts me. Interestingly, a few things that are coming up for me right now are two different Bible verses. A quiet man is thought to be discerning, essentially, that you know, you don't always have to speak in in spaces. And so even if it's impacting me as a facilitator, as a guider in the room, sometimes not saying anything as powerful. And I've actually seen that even more powerfully done when it's a colleague and a peer and a participant sharing the impact that a certain statement has had versus a facilitator standing at the front of the room who maybe I see you once a month, but you're not, you know, my cubicle colleague who just said, actually, what you said hurts me. As a facilitator, it's not that we're about being neutral, but maybe it somebody else needs to say the thing. Somebody else needs to get needs to emote about this topic or issue. And so I and I I say that all to say that again, I do think society still has this if you're not speaking up, if you're not fill in the blank, then you are being neutral, which is uh, I don't know that that's a useful perspective to be having. The other uh verse, and I can't remember why this came up in this conversation for me, but it's essentially that you know the the Bible talks about an eye for an eye, but it also says, do not resist an evil person. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn towards, you know, turn your left cheek as well.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Um, and so it's a little bit of that, you come at me with hate. I'm not gonna come back with hate. I'm not gonna come back with metaphorically flipping the table, but I am gonna challenge you. And I can do that in a variety of different ways. My words, my actions, my emotions. It doesn't always have to be emotions.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Um I really appreciate this conversation, and I'm I think I'm learning more about you, stuff that I didn't know before. And so it's it's good to be having this. These are all we're always having good conversations, and this is a one that I'm learning a lot. I I do appreciate your faith um and your education through faith. And trying, and I both of those things I really like to lean into, those, those quotes, those verses. And I don't know, I that's just not me. I am a part of the society where you're gonna see it on my face, you're gonna notice it in my body, I emote so that you know what it is that I'm thinking or how I'm feeling. Uh or I don't, and that is an indication of how I'm thinking or what I'm feeling. Also, that's just maybe it's the theater nerd in me, uh, perhaps it's the Leo in me. I don't know. I don't know what what it is. It's definitely a part of me. And and so when facilitators, speakers, teachers, even delivering content, and it doesn't seem like they got a vested interest, that that's the values that I am placing on that that work, and and perhaps incorrectly um and and unfairly so. And that's why I asked the question. Know that there are some of our DEI practitioners, trainers, facilitators, programmers, coordinators that are out there, and they're doing this work especially because they themselves need to be the recipients of the humanization, inclusion, and connection that we're working towards, the freedom and liberation and justice that we're working towards and talking about. And you and I have privileges that some of those don't um because of how we show up, because of who we are, um, how we present and and how we lead our lives. And so when it is personally impacting to be that person up in the front of the room sharing things that people are vehemently against, I'm my response is going to be just that because it's personal to me. We we, you and I, come at these things differently.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

And that's okay. And that's what I'm trying to get at is that we can't expect that everyone has to be like Robert, and we can't get angry that there are some people like a Jamie. Uh yeah, I think there's danger in thinking that a facilitator is not passionate or deeply impacted because of the way that they facilitate.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

What's the danger?

SPEAKER_01 20:32

That you expect allyship to look one way. You expect the struggle for justice to look one way. Just like the just like when we come into rooms and there's danger in us seeing white male with arms crossed and assuming that they're not engaged and don't care about the work.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Yes, assumptions, right? Assuming, right? Yes. You're absolutely right about that.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Interestingly, just within the past few months, I've gotten at least a handful of people that say, You're so passionate about this work. Thank you for your passion. And so passion is a signal for people, and I've indicated that. So and I don't need to have big emotions and exert those to be impactful. Um, I do think there's power in calm, power in discerning how am I gonna respond to the situation at this moment in pursuit of my goals. Yeah, we all have our roles to play, and and um we all need to value those roles in each other. And neutrality does not mean an absence of emotion.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Neutrality doesn't mean an absence of emotion.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Yeah, neutrality doesn't equal an absence of emotion. So while people may perceive me as emotionless, it doesn't mean I'm neutral. Our emotions show up in very, very different ways.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Facts. What is interesting, what the reason I said interesting. Is I have an HR colleague who told me that showing up in a neutral way is best for the organization. And I absolutely disagree with him. And when you just said that showing up with neutrality doesn't mean that I don't have a personal stake. I think you might have been trying to get at that. So you might have just saved my relationship with that particular uh HR individual.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Not to try to unsave your relationship, but what I was trying to say is what may seem emotionless to you doesn't mean that I'm being neutral. So I'm not advocating for neutrality. I'm advocating for recognizing that people vote in very different ways and how people move forward their values can be very different. And what it might look like as neutrality for some people might actually be in by design that um I can't always be the woman of color at the room that gets angry at you know the people in the room because what I might be doing is just reconfirming stereotypes. I want to create a new a new perspective or different perspective for people to say, oh, I can share this different opinion and the woman of color at the room can have a conversation with me and not metaphorically flip the table. And that doesn't mean it's neutrality, it means that it's about my approach.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Yeah. So I do think you helped me with that relationship with that particular HR individual. And I'll think more about that this week as I engage with them. Um I want to make sure as a takeaway that everybody recalls back so you need to hit the rewind button. Jamie, you gave a great example of allyship. Yeah, um, these are the words that I wrote down. This is not necessarily what you said, uh, but it's the way that you said it. You said you say the thing so that I don't have to. That's a a way to display one's allyship, that uh I do have a personal stake in a lot of what it is that I'm talking about, whether I'm the facilitator or a participant in the room or just somebody in the meeting. And if you say that hurt, that impacted me, uh, that takes the burden off of me who might have been victimized, and also makes it that as the black dude in the room, that I don't always have to be the one talking about race, gender, um, language, citizenship, et cetera. And so demonstrate your allyship that way. Say the thing so that I don't have to. So you said that, Jamie, and I just wanted to make sure that everybody had that as a note for their taking away as we close our session.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Awesome. Thanks for the conversation today, Robert.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

This has been the Beyond the Training podcast, where we move from really good intent and intentions to even greater impact so that we can see the ripples of our impact helping, moving, uh, challenging our communities forward, so that seven generations from now, the dreams that we have for our ancestors then is going to be something that we hadn't even thought about. And so we want to hear from you. How did this land on you? How does this conversation connecting with the work that you're doing? Send us an email at impact at seven focus.com or hit us up on all of our social media, like LinkedIn, uh the TikTok or Instagram, and we will see you all next time.