Joy Is Resistance

Perhaps you've heard the poem, "joy is an act of resistance," and you thought it was a nice sentiment, or you agreed and went on about your day.  Join us for a conversation digging into the relationship between joy and the work it takes for us all to remain in the work toward equity.

Welcome to the show, and thanks for joining us for a Conversation With Purpose!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 1:25

All right, welcome back to the show. This is Conversations with Purpose. Hey Jamie, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Good morning, Robert. I'm well. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Quite well. Quite well indeed. You know, when we uh come on this show, sometimes we ask each other about our mental health or uh what's going on with the world. I want to practice something, and uh, I'm hoping you'll go along with me. Are you ready to try something new?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Do I have an option?

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Absolutely. You can definitely say no.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Well, let's give it a go with the option to exit as needed.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

All right. So I have here on my desk, I have the book called The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker. And uh I happened to be listening to her speaking in a conference just not too long ago, and she shared the idea of the magical question, something that you might ask as you're building a gathering, like you know, coming on a podcast, asking a really cool question, which sounds like an icebreaker. But you and I don't need an icebreaker because there's not ice between us. That's kind of an assumption uh that I need you to affirm later. So I've got a question for you that is a pretty simple question, but then also gets us the the juices flowing before we get into our topic today. Are you ready? Yes. All right, so uh full transparency. This particular question uh is controversial, and so you likely have an idea about it. So we're gonna ask, and I want everybody who's listening to think about this answer too. What is the proper way to install the toilet paper roll?

SPEAKER_00 2:59

There is no proper way, my answer.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Really?

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Yes, and I it's interesting that that's what you pulled from her book. I've also read the book, and we could have a whole different podcast on one of the pieces of the book that is really intriguing to me.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

I would love that. We should do that. Stay tuned, y'all. I I'm really surprised that you say that there's not a particular way, but at the same time, I should remembering that you you do have some things that you're very particular about, and and toilet paper role apparently is not one of them. And there are some things that I'm I have been surprised in our time together that I'm like, oh Matt, yeah, Jamie doesn't really care about that at all. I didn't know that was going to be the answer, and it's wildly interesting because also because I don't care either. It's it is what it is, as long as there is toilet paper, and preferably a ply that uh works for me, then that's fine. I the rest of it as long as it comes off the road.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Interesting way to start our podcast. And I will say, potentially future podcasts, I'm learning the older I get that there's a thousand right ways to do things. So there's a thousand right ways to put the toilet paper to get the toilet paper. Um, and so there's not always one right way.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

I think I might argue that there's wrong ways to set up the toilet paper role, um, but it is not about the uh under or over. That's not what I mean. I mean sometimes folks will put toilet paper in places or set it up in ways that doesn't make a lot of sense for the user of said toilet paper, and those are wrong ways, but that's not what this podcast is about. And to your point, there are multiple ways to do things, and so I think it's a great segue for our conversation today. So, Jamie, what would you like us to talk about? What conversation can we have today?

SPEAKER_00 4:46

One thing that has been sitting with me for the last few years is the concept of joy is resistance.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Joy is resistance. Where where has it come up for you over the last couple of years?

SPEAKER_00 5:07

There's been a lot of uh not just the last couple of years and um over time, there's been a lot of oppression, a lot of racism, a lot of sadness, genocide, sexism, name it. And um this concept of am I allowed to be happy in the midst of all of that as I am resisting oppression isms, etc. Um so that's what often comes up for me. And when I'm coaching people, am I coaching people when they are feelings incredibly down about the world, about their experiences? Is it appropriate for me to coach the sentiment, idea, concepts, practice of joy is resistance?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

So I want to tap into something though that you you just said joy and happy. You used both of those words in your in your setup there. When you use those words, are you using them interchangeably? They're the same to you, happy and joy.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

I think in certain contexts they can be the same, and in certain contexts, they maybe are not the same. Um so as it relates to this, I would say, yeah, when I think about moments where I am joyous, happy is often right there next to it. I don't know that they're I I can't think of a time where I've been joyous and not happy. So yeah, they're really, really close, not even close cousins, they're family members.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Right. Not exactly synonyms, but different. But the the reason I ask is because I feel when I hear joyous resistance and I'm thinking about examples of that, I go straight to it, just means be happier. And given all of those things that you were just talking about and coaching people, maybe not coaching people through, but coaching people while they're experiencing, it feels maybe a little too simple in my mind, and even um a less optimal option to just be happier or practice happiness, if joy and happy are family members. And so that's why I ask if you see those differently. Because if you're coaching me, and I guess that's kind of what I'm asking, do you tell your coach or coaches, the the executives that you work with, hey, where are there examples in your life where you could be happier, insert more joy? And if and if so, how does that even work? Because I know if you were coaching me and you said, you know, be more happy or work towards happiness, I don't know that I would be able to work with that.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

It's interesting that that's where your brain went, because that is not what I coach on. So the the sentiment of be happier is not how I think about joy is resistance um at all. And I'm curious why that why you went there with that. But joy is resistance means being happier.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Well, because because you were saying joy and you don't remember a time when you were joyous and not happy, also. So if I'm trying to insert joy as a part of my resistance work, and and you described it, uh talking about happiness, and I that's why I went there. But I also do that before you even said that, JB. I'm like, okay, what is joy? What is an example of it? Uh, or or where do I find joy? And so I'm thinking about okay, uh, where are the places that I have experienced joy recently? So uh we recently uh celebrated Pride Month, and I for a while now have been trying to attend pride celebrations during Pride Month, either with friend friends or family or work folks, et cetera, et cetera. And that is absolutely a joyous occasion, pride celebrations, right? Whether you're at the parade or at the park or at the uh the place with the uh rooftop, and there's a lot of people who are there who are happy, right? But the way that I would describe what's happening in the event would be joy. And the reason that I I connect this to what you're talking about and what our topic is today is that pride itself is a protest. And so being there, being out, being with one another, and and saying to the world that we're here and that love is love is a protest, is joy it joyous to be celebrating, and therefore many of us are happy in the moment, even though in that moment, no matter what pride parade or pride celebration you're at, there are uh legislate, there is legislation, and there are legislators, there are uh uh regular people who are working to crush the idea that love is love in the halls of Congress and in your local uh library, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So pride is a place that I think of as being joyous, joyous celebrations, and lots of happy people, but it feels different than today is uh you know it's seven degrees, the sun is shining, uh I can hear a cricket outside my window, it makes me happy. Those things feel really different.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Yeah, and I guess the uh connecting back to the joyous resistance, your happiness currently is not an example of you resisting a system. Okay. And so for that example, and where I started was that I think they are connected, but in that example that you just shared of you being happy, are you allowed to have that happiness?

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Ooh, am I allowed to have happiness, that happiness?

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Yes, given everything that's happened, given that genocide is happening, given that there's people experiencing poverty potentially down the street from you, somebody is unhoused, experiencing homelessness.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Oh, that's that's a really good way of thinking about it. And I I said yes at first, and then I'm thinking, maybe probab probably, I I think so. I think I'm allowed to be happy, even though those things are happening.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

And such is joy resistance, is happiness resistance, is pride resistance, or positive emotions, resistance. And as you're pondering that, I I want us to give credit where credit's due, and the sentiment joy is resistance came from a poet named Toy Der Acht, I believe that's how you pronounce their name. Um, and so I just wanted to make sure that we gave credit where credit's due again and uplifted where the sentiment joy is resistance came from. And so in this conversation, it sounds like we're expanding it a bit to are positive emotions allowed to coexist with oppression?

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Yeah, so for yes, absolutely. Shout out to Toy Derekot. If you haven't found uh Toy's poetry, go out there and check it out. Uh Toy, if you're listening, thank you so much. Come on the show, we want to talk some more. Jamie, okay, if if if joy is resistance, do you have some examples that you would share where that shows up? Like I shared pride because that was the first thing that came to my mind, and it helps me distinguish between just being happy that there's a cricket singing outside my window and doing something joyous or experiencing joy in the resistance of uh uh oppression. Do you have other examples that maybe your clients shared or that you worked with your clients through?

SPEAKER_00 12:55

I recall a time when I was working in a large public school system where I was we we had pretty consistent conversations around equity and access and disparities, discrepancies between how black and brown young people were meeting district targets in comparison to um not in black and brown. And they were hard conversations to be having, um, you know, conversations around access resources, etc. And I remember walking into one of these hard conversations before it had started, and a senior leader who um is a Mexican-American male saw me and I saw him, and he just gave me a head nod like, what's up? I see you. Um, and that was a moment of work in a really, really hard conversation trying to push the system to do better for black and brown young people. And we were able to just show up as we were if we were hanging out and in our houses and our communities. And so just the head nod was joyous. I see you, you see me. We can be who we are in these spaces, and we don't have to code switch, we don't have to do the normal shaking of the hands in a quote unquote professional environment. So that is an example, a small example of joy. And clearly that moment sticks with me, and I use it in other um stories and examples of just the power of being seen in a room that's hard.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Oh, I like it. Uh yeah, um, and I'm really glad to hear that uh me as a black dude looking for the head nod of solidarity. It I'm not the only one who does it. Um, I know you and I have head nodded too before, but not in the same way. So it's it's really good to hear that that's also happening in other places. And I like that as uh adding to my list of joy is resistance uh moments. Uh, I was what you made me think of when you were talking about uh colleague who's Mexican-American, I was thinking about the Cafecitos. Have you, Jamie, ever participated in a cafecito?

SPEAKER_00 15:09

I have not, but I'm well aware of the community and the impact that they bring.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Yeah. Uh okay. I'm curious as to what you think the impact is. What do you think the impact of cafecitos are or is?

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Community. Um, being in a joyous community while other people outside of that community are actively working to tear down the community.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Yeah, I think we're starting to build towards a definition of joy as resistance for me that that certainly separates from happiness just an emotion. Not that the emotions are void of that, but that there's a condition to this concept of joy as resistance. And and those of you who are like, what is it, Capacitos, Robert? Capacitos, uh, I have not I have been invited to one, but it was like more of a professional one, like a work one, not one of those that have been uh created in uh uh in an organic way. But capacitos uh are an opportunity to sit down and talk about what is going on in a community, specifically uh formed out of the Spanish-speaking communities um around our world or in our world. And my experience, Jamie, has been that many of the folks that are invited are not only Spanish-speaking, but they're Hispanic and Latino across the spectrum of what Latinidad means, and also focused on people who identify as female or women, women. Uh, there are, like I said, I went to a Capacito that I was invited to as well. So I'm not any of those things, but uh in the ones that I know of that have uh uh existed throughout a long generational time, even here in in our city. Um those are mostly Chicana and Mexican women, many of whom speak Spanish, not all, um, talking about what's going on in the community. Is that how you understand them or have seen them as well?

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Right. So absolutely, cafecitos is an opportunity for joy in and amongst so much um oppression, uh vitriol toward that specific community, those specific community members, uh, but they find a way to sit and talk and be and in and build community. Yeah, that's that's a that's a good example for sure. Uh all right, maybe one more. JB, do you have another uh example of joy is resistance? Because what's coming next, I have some arguments against this concept of joy being resistance.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

I don't know that I have a a specific example, but I do want to um bring light to um a sentiment quote that was in a recent um NPR um conversation, and it's from Adrian Marie Brown, and they said in this conversation um quote um, you know, like in a society that's trying to erase you to not only say I exist, but I exist and I'm having a great life, it does feel like there's resistance there. And and so this this sentiment, this idea of you are trying to tell certain communities that they can't exist or that they're less than um or they don't belong, and for someone to say, no, I do belong, and I'm happy and I'm joyous, I deserve to be here. I um get not deserve is not the right word. I'm allowed to be here and be joyous, um, are examples of resistance. And so going to pride events, um, walking down the street and holding your partner's hand and being happy is a sign of resistance that the world around me, people that might be walking in front of me and behind me don't want me to exist, but I am here holding my partner's hand with joy. Um resistance.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

I feel that. I definitely feel that in I can see it. Like I'm starting to visualize what joy is resistance looks like. What does it conceptualized uh and visually? And it brings up this idea, uh, especially over or after COVID, there were a number of Instagram and and YouTube, and then it ended up on TikTok posts about uh black men frolicking. You ever see that? Those those posts.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

No, but it reminded me of the group that um it's mostly I think it's all black men that wear like all black clothes on Instagram, and then they sing um songs like Barney.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Oh, I've not seen this.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Um and so it just like it reminded me of that, and that it brings so much joy because they're just flipping the stereotype of anyways. So, no, I've not seen that, and I'll look it up, and now you need to go look up.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yeah, the fun I think was what what doesn't pull through a uh audio podcast is that you that made you smile as you were starting to think about it, and then I was smiling, thinking about what it's like to be hearing these these dudes singing, uh Barting or whatever, but it's the same concept, and it brought dare I say joy to us both in this moment that people can't see because we we're not uh we're looking at each other, but they can't see us, and and the world is still on fire in in a lot of places, uh and that's the the resistance, not only because of what is going on in the world, but there the thing about the frolicking movement, if if I want to call it that, if I want to call it that, was that well, y'all black dudes shouldn't be frolicking, like that concept, like you out in a field literally skipping and holding a camera, which was uh I always thought was the interesting thing is people would be frolicking in the woods or in the park or uh even kind of in their backyards and holding the phone at the same time, and I'm like, you're gonna fall. And then sometimes people did, and then they would just laugh and laugh. And so, anyway, there was a lot of comments that people were talking about like y'all are doing this and and all and the world is on fire. Y'all are doing this, and you're black man, you're supposed to be this and that, etc. etc. And so I I when you shared Joy's resistance, I was like, Yeah, the frolicking movement was one that was fraught with is maybe maybe people are still frolicking, fraught with expectations that black men should be a particular thing and doing a particular thing, uh, that that the resistance and and um the way that we move should look a s a certain way. And that's why I think I landed on happy earlier when we were talking about that, is because I just I I don't know, maybe I have some biases about that word and how we're supposed to move. Uh and so there's there's a lot of arguments against this idea that uh joy is not resistance when we think about all the things we're fighting in the world.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

What are those arguments?

SPEAKER_01 22:18

So one of the things that I I when I was looking uh uh around my research, that joy doesn't impact policy. So a lot of folks in the resistance, those at you and I is uh also, we understand that in order to work towards equity, in order to work towards justice, uh, we're breaking down and undoing systems of oppression that have existed for a long, long time and are in so intertwined that not one of them can be just focused on all of them. And one of the better ways to do that here in these United States is to change policy.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

I don't know that I disagree with that sentiment.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

So acts of joy holding my partner's hand, walking down the street. Like literally, I was holding my partner's hand last night as we were walking through a park, and I'm like, that's not necessarily gonna get that person who is unhoused off uh out of poverty, out of experiencing poverty. I gotta do more. I gotta do more to do that. And of course, there's a part of my brain, and I can maybe it's because people out here are listening to podcasts right now are like screaming this. Well, yes, you have to have joy in order to endure that fight. So maybe. Maybe I'm having that conversation already inside my brain. But that's one of the arguments, Jamie, is that joy doesn't impact policy.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

It's not a straight line. And to your point, joy does help me fill my cup to continue to enact policy, impact policy. Joy also signals to other people a really powerful and important thing. And some people are threatened by marginalized communities, joy, sadly, and unfortunately. And some people are inspired by that joy. And you know what? I need to do more. I need to write my local senator. I need to vote locally to make sure that this joy that I see in these two people holding hands can continue to exist. So I do think joy can and does impact policy.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Yeah, okay. I'm with it. It's not a straight line. I do talk to my team about all the time about if you're not 100% um at home, you know, just when you're not at work, uh, then how are you going to bring 100% to work, right? Um, and then what we are doing, what our team is doing is working towards equity uh in a number of different spaces. So I'm with that. Okay, you ready for another argument uh to joy as resistance?

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Man, it's been a while since I've got a good arm wrestle with you, and looks like you're ready. So yes, it'd be the next one.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Everybody who knows me knows that this is one of my favorite things to do. Not necessarily arm wrestling, but just to talk, have really great conversations with purpose. All right, so uh this one comes from a conversation uh that I I got to witness uh with that was uh conversation with the Reverend Dr. William J. Barber II. Are you familiar with Reverend Barber?

SPEAKER_00 25:15

I do not believe so, no.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

I would classify him as one of our generation's most powerful um uh ministers. Uh he's he's an American Protestant minister, but he's got social media fame mostly because he came up in the time. His his hitting his stride in in the political sphere. He's not in politics, but he is he's a person who speaks uh very eloquently about politics. A la the Jesse Jackson, a la the Dr. Martin, Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. space that uh in the ministerial space, but also leading toward and and teaching about equity through uh his spirituality, his religion. And so in a conversation with him, uh the moderator asked about how rage impacts the work and whether or not, because so many people who are downtrodden or see that people are downtrodden or being oppressed, knowing that the world is on fire, that they have great pain, great rage, madness even that they're that they are experiencing, and that that is greater than joy, that because there's so much hurt and harm uh and violence, violent harm, uh, that joy is not larger than that, it's not bigger than that. It doesn't replace what needs to be replaced that has been taken away.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

But that isn't an argument that that isn't an argument that you looked at. Do you believe that argument?

SPEAKER_01 26:53

I I don't know yet. I have certainly had bouts personally where things are so hard, no amount of inserted joy was gonna fix that. That I was I was so hurt in so much pain, not not physical pain, but uh but um visceral emotional pain, so mad that there was nothing that was going to change that. And I, to the point you made a moment ago, uh Jamie, I do have a good life. I'm I'm a very privileged person, blessed and highly favored, as I sometimes say. And I have had moments over the last two years, two and a half, that have been so hard that there's so much pain and so much rage that I didn't feel joy. And there was nothing that was gonna undo that. I I had to work through it, had to have some therapy, had to get some counseling, had to uh do a couple things, hit the hit the bag a little a little bit. Uh and so it wasn't joy that brought me out. That's what I was getting at. And and so if there was a mathematical equation, does is pain and rage greater than or equal to the power of joy?

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Is it joy that sustains you though?

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Is it joy that sustains me?

SPEAKER_00 28:06

So joy didn't bring you out, and is it something that's keeping you where you're at?

SPEAKER_01 28:13

I maybe I think so. I think so. I I think because of the line you the wiggly line that you drew earlier, that it's not a straight line between joy um and and the impact of policy, probably that because I have places where there is joy and light in my life, uh, a lot of my family, a lot of the workouts that I'm able to do, a lot of just driving and listening to good music, um a good frolic. I was I was frolicking this week. Just I wanted to say that I was in the mountains frolicking this week. Um, yeah, being able to do those things does sustain. Like I have to pour back into the bucket when those dark moments come. Uh there's an intentionality of it though, too, Jamie, and there's a privilege in that too. That the reason I was frolicking in the mountains is because I was doing something for work that got took me to the mountains. Uh, and I have mountains in my backyard, almost literally, quite literally. So I have access to that. And again, that there are folks for whom, and that that's what Dr. uh Dr. Reverend Barber was actually talking about, is saying there are so many people in this world who are experiencing poverty and pain and and and oppression in their daily that they don't have the ability to hear him talk, you know, or to have a conversation like what we're having right now. So I yes, to answer your question quickly, I think it is something that sustains me. And I'm really privileged, but I don't know that that's going to work for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Maybe the conversation is joy can be resistance. It's not all the time, it's not in every single moment. The the sentiment that joy is resistance has to coincide with resistance. So we have to continue to be thinking where in our spaces are we resisting oppressive practices, racist systems, etc. And sometimes it requires rage, sometimes it requires for us to step back and find joy in our own existence. And so it's not a I get to go get my nails done and be happy, even if the life, if the world around me sucks, it's not as simple as that. Um, and it's a reminder to ourselves, the people I coach. What are you resisting for a little bit? Who are you resisting for? And where can you find joy for yourself and for the who in the moments of resistance, in between moments of resistance, in order to fill your cup, in order to show the world that you get to exist?

SPEAKER_01 31:00

All right. So uh let's jump into a uh role play, bit of a uh coaching session, if you will. Let's just pretend that I'm a leader uh in an organization and I've heard this podcast, and I'm like, okay, I want to bring this concept of joy as resistance into the workplace. What are two, maybe three things that you would suggest that a leader of people in a workplace uh do to live out this concept of joy as resistance?

SPEAKER_00 31:27

I think you mentioned this earlier, and for our team members who are part of traditionally and historically marginalized communities, for those team members, one practice is encourage them, create spaces, allow them to be who they want to be in the workplace, reduce the times that they have to hide, cover, pretend in the workplace for everybody, make kind time for connection, make time for us to see each other as human beings and not cogs in a wheel. What would you offer, Robert?

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Well, so let me just underscore like what you just said that as a leader, I have to not only create space for folks that uh that I'm working with to uh unmask, but also pay attention to the concept that people are masking at work. And that's that's probably even harder than letting people unmask themselves and and to be their authentic selves at work, it is or the person that they want to be at work. I have to recognize that, for example, folks who are neurodiverse uh may be masking their neurodiversity because it doesn't always fit into a corporate space. And if I don't know that, then I don't understand necessarily why um decisions fall on certain people uh differently than than others, or why an administrative task uh takes longer or goes faster uh with different people who seem to have the same amount of skills. So awareness of that is important, not just not in addition to making sure that people can be their their own self. So I just wanted to underscore that. For me, back to Priya Parker's book, The Art of Gathering, and I know you said we could talk more about this later, um meeting on purpose and and giving people purpose in in the ways that we gather. That's that's the word that Priya Parker would use, is the way that we gather, but like I'm thinking a lot about in the corporate structures and some corporate spaces, we have a lot of meetings, and the meetings don't always feel purposeful. Joy can come in knowing that you're not a cog on the wheel, you are an intentional part of this work, and we can't do this without you. But if I'm not sharing that with you, if I don't tell you what that is, then um how could you know? And so, whether you're a leader or just a person who's setting up the meeting, you could be an executive, uh, executive staff, uh, assistant uh or something like that, and you could be set in the meeting. Work on the what's the intentionality and why am I here? And treat me like it. Like if I'm an actual in important person in this work in this meeting, help me with that, because then I'm going to feel inclusion and community, like a cafecito, like a pride pop uh barbershop, uh, those kinds of spaces. So that's what I would say is meeting on purpose.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

One thing that you want to underscore or really highlight from this conversation today.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Well, joy is not synonymous with happiness, they are family members, as I think you said, Jamie, earlier, and that both can be both can be a part of the work, and maybe I should say both are a part of the work. And if you're working towards equity, if you're working towards justice, if you're working towards helping folks have what it is that they need so they can thrive, happiness and joy need to be in the toolbox for them, for you, and for us. That's what I would say. What about you? What do you what's the takeaway?

SPEAKER_00 34:54

I would underscore what I attributed to Adrian Marie Brown earlier. That quote, in a society that's trying to erase you, to not only say I exist, but I exist and I'm having a great life, it does feel like there's a resistance there. End quote. And so for communities, people that society is trying to erase or say were less than to be able to say I exist and I love who I am and I love my communities, and I'm you know happy. That's resistance. Did you try to tear me down? I'm still smiling.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

On purpose with intention, not just not a not a forced one. Yeah, absolutely. I thank you so much, Jamie, for bringing joy to my life uh through podcast and the work that we do. And thank you for coming on the show today. Thank you. This has been Conversations with Purpose. Thanks for spending the time. If something we talked about today landed, if it sounded like the kind of conversation your own team or community or even family needs to be having, we would love to hear from you. When we connect, we can get into why we do the work we do and how we can live out the intentions we hope for in the purposeful conversations we have. So if you want to explore what this could look like for you and yours, please reach out. Send an email to impact at seven focus.com. Tell us what you're navigating and what bringing this work to your people might look like. Until next time, respect and wonder, y'all. I'm Mr. Robert, and this is Conversations with Purpose.