Speaking With Confidence

Deep Listening, Leadership, and the Power of Presence with Therese Miclot

• Tim Newman • Season 1 • Episode 35

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What if your greatest strength as a leader wasn’t how well you speak, but how well you listen?

In this episode of Speaking With Confidence, Tim sits down with leadership development expert and executive coach Therese Miclot for a powerful conversation about the kind of communication skills that truly set great leaders apart. With over 25 years of experience coaching global tech executives and co-authoring The Facilitation Advantage, Therese brings a fresh, human-centered approach to what it means to lead and communicate effectively.

They dive deep into the art of “deep dive listening”, a next-level skill that helps you understand not just what’s being said, but the motivations and unspoken needs behind it. Whether you’re in a high-stakes public presentation or a one-on-one with a team member, Therese shares how intentional listening can shift everything.

You’ll also hear why your self-talk is more visible than you think, how to replace awkward meeting questions with ones that spark real engagement, and why vulnerability isn’t a weakness, it’s your leadership superpower.

If you're ready to future-proof your career, connect more meaningfully, and develop the soft skills that actually drive results, this episode is your roadmap to becoming a more powerful communicator.

What You’ll Learn:

  • Why “Any questions?” is the worst way to end a meeting—and what to say instead
  • The real reason your communication might be falling flat (hint: it’s about mindset)
  • How to keep the attention of neurodiverse teams and foster better engagement
  • The link between imposter syndrome, self-talk, and leadership presence
  • Why public speaking is about connection, not perfection
  • How soft skills like listening and facilitation yield massive ROI in business
  • The secret to making people feel safe, seen, and ready to contribute
  • Why networking and internships matter more than GPA
  • How to develop interpersonal skills that boost both personal and professional development

Key Quote:
"Your thoughts are like a billboard on your forehead, people can read them, even when you think they’re hidden." – Therese Miclot

Connect with Therese
https://www.linkedin.com/in/theresemiclot/
https://www.thefacilitationadvantage.com/

Resources & Links:
Get your FREE ebook: Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and How to Overcome Them
Visit timnewmanspeaks.com for coaching, resources, and to book a call with Tim

Support the show

Want to be a guest on Speaking With Confidence? Send Tim Newman a message on PodMatch
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Tim:

Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, the podcast dedicated to helping you unlock the power of effective public speaking. I'm Tim Newman, a recovering college professor turned communication coach, and I'm thrilled to guide you on your journey to becoming a powerful communicator. I want to thank each and every one of you for your support. It truly means the world to me. Please visit timnewmanspeakscom to get your free ebook the Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and how to Overcome them. Today's guest is Therese Micklow. Therese is a leadership development expert with 25 years of experience developing and coaching leaders in global tech companies and small to mid-sized businesses. She is a co-author of the Facilitation Advantage, a book that helps leaders develop the skills to guide teams effectively and with empathy. Today, she coaches leaders on how to navigate complex dynamics, lead authentically and build workplaces where both individuals and teams can thrive. Therese, welcome to the show.

Therese:

Thanks, it's so good to be here, tim.

Tim:

Oh, it's great having you and you know I mentioned to you, you know, a few weeks ago that you know the pitch that you gave me was probably to be on the show was probably one of the best I've ever seen and it's perfect. And I think that's really kind of leads into what we're going to talk about how you kind of lead with value, you're specific in the request and how you can be beneficial in helping others. Is that something that's kind of natural for you or was that learned behavior from you? Kind of give me a little bit of insight on that.

Therese:

Sure, it's very much learned behavior and I think it's a skill and I think this is true for all of us who have some sort of domain expertise or subject matter expertise and the thing I've learned over the years is that if you can step out of your own needs and into the shoes of others, then you're already better at crafting communication or messages, because you're not thinking about it from your vantage point, you're thinking about it from your audience's vantage point. And so I always begin, or learn to begin, as I'm trying to influence or engage with people, to think about what are their pain points Like, what are they trying to accomplish? Because when I can communicate it in a way that addresses those pain points or their needs or their focus areas, it's going to lead to a better conversation.

Tim:

Yeah, and I kind of approach things the same way and how we go about communicating, those things really can come off very very's. I kind of approach things the same way and you know there's how we go about communicating. Those things really can come off very, very differently, right, you know, I like that, that you're, you're, you're helping, you know, lead teams with empathy. And for somebody like, like, like me, I've been told that I, that I'm abrasive and there's to me that's not how I, that's not how what I'm actually trying to do. So sometimes, you know, it's word choice, sometimes it's tone, sometimes it's how we actually approach the situation, and so for me, again, it's very much a process and learn behavior. You know, I think people really do come with the idea of leading with value and trying to help people for the most part, but how we come across and doing that is just really so important and how that's actually received.

Therese:

Totally and, I think, the skill to lean on. So, even when you're coming with that intention, but you know, like you said, maybe you're coming off as too abrasive or too direct or too indirect the place to go is listening and I think it's really easy for us to think like when we're trying to show up with credibility and confidence or communicate really well, that we think it's all about talking about getting my point out, you know, getting other people to believe what I'm saying, and I think the counterbalance to that that is as important as what you say is how you draw people out, how you hear their point of view first, instead of thinking. You know the mindset of I better say something smart, or I better you know word this perfectly of I better say something smart, or I better you know word this perfectly and it gets you kind of wrapped up in unproductive and unhelpful thinking.

Tim:

It really does. And you know the listening piece is, I guess is really one of the most important pieces in communication from my perspective and you know I'm working on on one of those on a reel to put out about. You know barriers to communication and one of them is is the listening piece. You know, as we're, as we're listening are we, are we listening, like you said, to to find something really smart to say right right are we listening to wait till it's our turn to jump in, or those types of things?

Therese:

The importance of listening again is a learned skill, yeah, and I think, especially from a communication perspective, it's often kind of pushed to the side Completely, and I think we all have to acknowledge that as humans, we are not great listeners. No, you know, that was always true. Now, you know, in today's day and age, where there's constant interruptions and pings and emails coming in, it's obviously gotten exponentially more difficult. But we're just not wired to be great listeners to begin with, and so I 100% agree we have to think of it like a skill that you've got to develop, and in the book, one of the chapters is really on the skill of listening, and we focus on the fact that there's layers to listening.

Therese:

You can listen at the surface, right, and that's just you're listening for the raw facts and data that people are telling you. Surface right, and that's just you're listening for the raw facts and data that people are telling you. But often there's, you know, what we call deep dive listening. There's so much under the covers that people may not share with you immediately until they know okay, you're going to listen to me or I trust you, and so the skill is how can you listen beyond the surface? For what do they value, what are their motivations, what's the underlying issue? And you will automatically show up as a better communicator if you focus in on deep dive listening.

Tim:

Yeah, and I'm really glad you brought up the book because and I've said this on this podcast before I'm a little different and so when I go, when I get a book, I don't start at page one and read through.

Therese:

It's just not what I do.

Tim:

Oh, this looks like an interesting chapter, and that's right. And then I, you know, go from there and the first chapter I read was the listening chapter. Yeah, and you know, and I also look at it from maybe some other different perspectives too you know, with where we're at in society today, with so many people with ADD or ADHD, and my ADHD is really, really bad, so when, when I'm really tasked with listening, at the end of the day I'm, I'm, I'm, we're out. How do we, because it's so important, how do you coach listening? How do you get people, especially people like me, or people that that have other, um, other other things that are that are tugging at them to to truly focus and do be able to do that deep dive listening? Because, again, how of how important it is.

Therese:

Yeah, yeah, um, I think I think of it in kind of two directions, and this is for all of us that are facilitating conversations or leading team meetings, and we have coworkers and colleagues with ADHD, whether or not you know of a diagnosis or not, and I think the first thing is that we have to be much more aware of the signals people are dropping all the time.

Therese:

I'll give you a perfect example, too. I was on a call this week and I have some people on that call that have disclosed to me they have ADHD, and the meeting leader was like on their own track and you could tell they had their agenda. They wanted to get through a lot. There's probably too much to cover in the hour that we had, but that aside, I could see my other colleagues and we were all virtual. I could see them fidgeting, I could see them looking around. I could read the body language that said they're uncomfortable right now, or they're trying to process, or you know what.

Therese:

It's been a long time since the leader stopped talking to engage us, and so that's the first thing I would say for all of us that have to leave meetings after meeting after meeting is we have to be a lot better at recognizing that when we see signals that people are losing focus, we've got to be able to not necessarily call it out directly, but we need to shift what we're doing, and I think facilitation is just all about choices. So when I replay that meeting this week. The facilitator could have had choices or taken a different choice. Instead of just all right, just stay with me, we have 10 more minutes. She could have stopped and said okay, I've talked a lot and I know there's a lot of detail here.

Therese:

So what's landing for you right now? What are you thinking about? And that might've re-engaged the minds of people that were having trouble focusing. So that's part A, like let's help others when we're leading meetings. And then for those that do struggle to stay focused in meetings, I think a couple things. One is to speak up, and you can speak up without maybe pointing out that you're having a problem. So it might be that you say, hey, I've got a question, and when you engage, that might help you stay focused a little bit more. Right, you know, or getting what you what you need, when you know there's a lot of information coming at you all at once and it's feeling like just a wave of you know, data.

Tim:

Yeah, and again, you.

Tim:

You bring up so many good points and I could, you know, go down rabbit holes all the time with this and being a leader, I think it's very, very important that you know the people that you're leading. You have an understanding of who they are, you know what, what their learning styles are, you know what I mean, being able to watch them and see how they work and be able to connect with them on different levels and you know I approach it from the idea of a coach perspective on an athletic team. You know you put people in positions where they're going to be successful. You know that this person can do this, and then you coach them in different ways. How you talk to them is in different ways, and it really shouldn't be any different in business or your personal life or anything like that. It's understanding who your audience is, understand who you're leading and what their goals and objectives are, and finding the best ways to guide them to be able to get there best ways to guide them, to be able to get, to be able to get there.

Therese:

Yeah, I think that for all of us, the message is when you, when you have to lead a meeting and let's say it's more than two people you should naturally assume that that people are not going to be like you in terms of how they receive information, right? So for some of us, you know and maybe that you relate to this Tim like you're very direct, you talk in bullets. You'll relate to this Tim like you're very direct, you talk in bullets, you get to the point, you're really efficient, right? It's about efficiency and speed and that's great for people who are in the meeting, who are like that, who are like just, bottom line for me Like I don't need the details, just tell me bottom line.

Therese:

But the chances are good that there are other people in the room or on the call that are like wait, wait, wait, wait, hold up. How did you reach that conclusion? Like, where's the data to support that? I want to have more information than just you know. Cutting to the chase and getting to the bottom line and you know I think of that as versatility that it's the one skill that we all need in every interaction we have with people, and that is to recognize that you know how I like to operate in the world, or have meetings or have discussions or have information conveyed to me is not the same for others, and the more you're able to flex your approach, the more people want to follow you. The more you keep everyone engaged, the more you influence, and even when you don't necessarily have authority.

Tim:

But you have 10 minutes on the meeting agenda and you really got to get people wrapped into your idea quickly- Right, and so that's again really good points, and one of the things how I handle those things is I start right, right up front. I'm going to give you the you know the bullet points. Here it is. If you want more information, let me know. I can cover it, I can send it to you how I'll give it to you however you want it. If you want me to slow down, tell me, slow down as well, but I've got five minutes to get through this and I'll be happy to to meet on the side, whatever it is, but giving them that opportunity. So for the introverts, who may not necessarily want to speak up, Right right.

Tim:

You know they have an opportunity to oh wow, you know they can, you know, get their heart rate back down.

Therese:

Right, right. And here's another choice Cause I think again, the more you have choice moment to moment, the more effective you are at communicating and engaging. Another choice, tim, would be I'm not going to give information, I'm going to tell a story. Tell a story, you know, because story is a way that we make meaning as humans, and it's sticky. So you're the eighth meeting of the day, everybody's tired, they're exhausted and you want to have, you know, make a point that is going to stick and be memorable. Throw out the slide and tell it in the frame of a story. That's another option, exactly as is like pausing and saying, okay, you know, asking a question to engage people, or saying you know, just as you did, tim, like okay, there's a lot of information here. Here's how. I'll share it afterwards If you want more detail.

Tim:

Yeah, yeah, but it's again. I think come back to the very first thing we talked about is the whole idea of providing value and giving people what they need. You know right up front, and bringing their anxiety levels down or putting them in the mindset of okay, I don't have to necessarily worry about asking questions or doing this or doing that. This person or these people that are running this meeting or lecture or what have you, are truly interested in helping and that's just so important.

Therese:

Yeah, I think we can make it easier or more difficult for people to engage with us. We can make it easier or more difficult for people to engage with us, and it's just choices. And I think, like another thing I feel like in my coaching of leaders I correct a lot is we all have a tendency, if we're presenting or got an update in a meeting, we say any questions, any questions. That's the worst, and one of two things either people are sitting in the room like please, please, please. Nobody ask a question. We want to get out of here, right, but it's also just, it's a throwaway question. People don't usually engage with that because it's not curious, right? It's like well, what are you asking me about, you know, and the weather, that last slide. And I think we could be so much more effective if we ask more curious questions and never said again Any questions.

Tim:

Any questions. Yeah, I'm so guilty of that sometimes. And you get to the end, or even in the middle right, and it's your time to to re-engage. Yeah, catch your breath and you know you're. You're thinking okay, this is, this is what I want to say, and it comes out as any questions.

Therese:

Oh my god yeah, oh, you're awesome. You are not alone. That's not everybody what I'm saying you know, it's so easy.

Therese:

It's so easy, yeah, I think maybe. The message, though, is, if you want to be a really good communicator and, again, most of us focus on, okay, the slides, the details, getting our message straight If you could spend another 90 seconds thinking about what am I curious to know from my audience and don't wing it, because I think when we wing it, the question is any questions. But if you spent 90 seconds or two minutes like, okay, what am I really curious about to hear from this group and how can I formulate a question that reflects that curiosity, I would almost bet that you're going to get more engagement, because people are really noticing that you actually want my opinion. You're not just, you know, offering the you know throwaway question.

Tim:

Right, Right, it's, and it's again. It comes back to, like you said, preparation and and being in the moment, and. And comes back to, like you said, preparation and being in the moment and being able to communicate that and understand that. And I think you agree with this. This isn't easy. This isn't something that just kind of happens. It takes work, it takes practice, it takes repetition, repetition and I think, especially from a leader's perspective, the people that you're leading, if they see that you're trying, if they see that you're improving and you're trying to get better, they're all in helping facilitate that as well.

Therese:

Oh, a hundred percent. And I was having a conversation with someone this week about you know, your vulnerability as a leader can actually be your strength, because no one's perfect, and I have found that the leaders that I've worked with that will disclose hey, like I'm not, I'm still trying to get better at this or, you know, it's totally fine if you give me feedback, because I'm still trying to learn. This instantly makes me want to follow them more, because they're not intimidating.

Therese:

They're like, of course, like none of us are good at everything, and it also gives me permission to feel like I don't have to be perfect, because I know I'm not, and um and so it. Yeah, I don't think that you have to give on airs Like you have it all figured out at all times right, because we don't.

Tim:

I don't think, I think anybody does and and I think, no matter how good you think you are, you're going to run into a situation that you've never dealt with before, yeah, and you're going to have to to figure it out, and then I, I think it's it's also important to to go back and self-reflect and self-evaluate and also be willing to have that feedback from other people and own what you did or didn't do, right. You know, I've worked with some people that, for whatever reason, just had a tough time owning what they did or didn't do. Tough time owning what they, what they did or didn't do.

Therese:

you know, and it's a part of that, if, if you can't do that that's something that the people that you're leading, are going to see and are going to resent you for, yeah, it's a real derailer, because I think that you know a lot of the companies that I work inside, the really the ones with the great culture and where they attract great talent.

Therese:

They know that what success looks like is not just what you do but how you do it Right, and and those are those in many companies that have like the best leaders they see that as equivalent, because we probably all know, if you worked in, you know companies, salespeople who are maybe great at hitting their quarterly numbers but nobody wants to work with them Right, and that string eventually runs out. And so at least I find right that eventually.

Therese:

It does Right that it'll catch up with you because you're going to lose good talent. You know people will do everything to work around you and you know the companies that are, I think, really advanced in the way they develop leaders and create a culture. Recognize it's the what and the how that defines your performance.

Tim:

Yeah, and you know, I spent, you know, the majority of my career in higher ed and that's what you see in higher ed. In higher ed, there really is no, there is no process for training leaders, because generally how it works is you're a professor and most professors have never really worked in business, yeah, and which and most professors have never really worked in business.

Tim:

They have no training in in how to lead or how to deal with people, any type of management structure. And then they become department chair and now they're in charge of a group of faculty that they have to manage, that they have to evaluate. No training there. And then they get bumped up into a dean position. Now they've even got a bigger budget and there's no training.

Therese:

You know, though, tim, there's so many parallels from academia to business, because that's been my experience in most companies, particularly those that are fast growing, is that you get promoted because you're good at your subject matter expertise. But the reality is that you're right, leadership is a different skill set, and you can't muscle it through just because you have subject matter expertise, especially when you get promoted into roles as a team leader or manager, director, vice president, and it doesn't just come with the title, and it really is a set of skills. That you're right. You know whoever taught us to listen?

Therese:

you know, I never went to a listening class in college or you know, we learned it from our you know people around us right, those that modeled it either in a good way or a bad way, and there's an easier way to get people transitioning to leadership roles to be well-equipped to perform in this new function.

Tim:

Yeah, and I wish there'd be more more of an open being open to doing that, because how much money and time and resources are lost to not doing that when you, when you could. Just the amount of money that it will cost in time to, to, to do the training, to, to build people up like that with ascule, compared to what you're actually losing, I mean the return on investment of that, is huge.

Therese:

Yeah, I've worked with some clients that were able to actually quantify it because they had a nutrition problem, so they were losing good talent, and you can work with your finance person to actually put a number to what it costs to when you lose good talent and what it costs to replace good talent that you have to train and the time and all that, and that goes straight to the bottom line.

Therese:

And so I think that in growing companies, where leaders at the top are recognizing what's going to prevent us from growing, is leadership ready now. You know that that becomes the bottleneck, and I'm working with a client right now where that that's the case, because they grew really fast and they have really strong engineers and technicians and all that got them to like director level and they're not equipped to help the business scale and navigate and leading larger teams now right.

Tim:

I read a stat recently last week or two that those companies that are spending money on soft skills training and leadership training are seeing like a 296% return on that investment, which is which, which is huge.

Therese:

That's. That's wonderful to see that it's now, you know, quantifiable. And here's the other thing I think we all have to know you know with, you know AI and the fact that you know work is going to change. You know it's coming that if you want to future and the fact that you know work is going to change, you know it's coming that if you want to future-proof your skill set, it's going to be on these like communication skills, facilitation skills, because we're going to have AI agents that will be able to do a lot of the work that doesn't necessarily require the human interaction that we're going to need. So, to me, if you're thinking about how do I get ahead of the curve and keep a growth mindset around how the world of work is going to be reshaped sooner than we know, it's to double down on what you offer, tim and the way of communication and you know how you build. You know relationships and collaborate and influence.

Tim:

Yeah, I agree, and and I don't. I don't understand how we have gotten to the point where we're, where relationships are really not not what we're building is there. They seem to be kind of pushed to the side. And, and I don't care what industry that you're in or want to get into or, like you just said, in the future it's still going to require interpersonal communication. It's still going to be about the, the relationships that you build, the network that you build, the um, those connections, that connections, that's what's always really going to matter anyway, and that's in business and that's in our personal lives all the way through.

Therese:

Totally. I saw this quote and I thought of you, tim, from an academic perspective. But the quote was a C-plus student with an A plus network will always do better than an A plus student with a C plus network. Right, and I think it is because that you know if you're going to invest in your network. That doesn't mean waiting for when you have to have a job or you need to ask somebody you know for a favor. It's being really good at collaborating and connecting and communicating and keeping relationships you know growing and afloat.

Tim:

Yes, and you know, you nailed it and that's something that I would tell my students all the time and I would say I would much rather have you be a C student doing these things and showing effort and doing all those things and then be an A student and not doing the basic things, because eventually it's going to catch up to you.

Therese:

You know I earlier in my career I led university relations for a multi-billion dollar company and you know we would go to all these campuses and we had a big presence, all that and we would bring, you know, very qualified students to our campus and interview and more often than not it wasn't just those with the straight. You know 4.0, gpa and you know perfect credentials, because if they could not interact well and be able to answer questions and ask questions, they would not get an offer. And I think they were stunned of like I did everything right.

Therese:

I got you know perfect grades and the reality is, in a work environment, certainly your, you know your ability to demonstrate that you, you know, can learn fast and grades matter. So I'm not saying don't go to class, but I am saying that if it's hyper-focused on that and not on what you offer and that we have communication skills, you're missing the boat.

Tim:

Yeah, and again, I don't want to go down this rabbit hole, but I've been saying this for years From a societal perspective, the way we approach higher education is number one it's not realistic, it's not sustainable and we're not doing the we're failing our students because the focus is academics, academics, academics, and that's. That's just one of the reasons why we go to go to college.

Therese:

Yeah.

Tim:

There's a there's a social piece to it. Right, there's a professional piece to it. There's, you know, all these things that go into going off to college and every all the pressure is on academics.

Tim:

Yeah all the pressure is on academics. Yeah, and, and I would, I would. When we do open houses, you know, especially when I was at, you know, a smaller school where I was really involved in that, I would. I would tell parents, I would say, look, you know, and they would other professors. The dean would look at me. I would say, look, academics is important, but you also need to look at, you know, what are the other things that are on campus that your student would be interested in? Right, do they fit in? Do they like the campus? What clubs, what locally interests them? Sure, and make some of those decisions, because there's so much more to it. And, yeah, academics is important. Yeah, but it's not the end-all, be-all, yeah.

Therese:

Academics is important, but it's not the end all be all. Yeah, I have a recent college grad and the you know being able to again see it from the academic perspective as he was going through college, but also from the industry perspective. The thing that you know was like a non-negotiable for our son was internships. Non-negotiable for our son was internships starting your freshman year, and it can be. You are the you know sweeping the floor at the warehouse, but you're going to learn how to operate inside. You know environments where you have to get things done through others and it's not based on grades.

Therese:

And I'm such a wholehearted believer in. You know all these industries are going through major disruption, so academics is no different, but it's, I think, on the forefront of seeing how it's going to have to be a bit of a reset, the whole paradigm. And I think you know, as we wait to see all the changes that will arise, I often think, okay, well, what can I do now? If I'm a student, if I'm a parent, like hear about someone who's early in their career or in their academic journey? It's like it's these skills.

Tim:

It's and and and, and. I think the way that we do internships has to change, yeah, and the way that we do experiential learning from an academic perspective has to change. It's great that they're going out and getting these experiences, but what's the communication piece Because we're so worried about? Oh, can you do this skill, can you do this skill, but did you interact in that meeting? Were you invited to that meeting?

Therese:

Yeah.

Tim:

Did you interact in that meeting? Did you send an email to your supervisor? What was in that email? How was it structured? And have that looked at and evaluated by not only your site supervisor but your academic supervisor and really truly work together, because, again, we're so focused on the, on the task, the skill.

Therese:

Yeah.

Tim:

The communication piece is left over here.

Therese:

It's true, we've got to change that, yeah, and you know I know a lot of a lot of schools have team-based projects and you know it's so cliche but right Like oftentimes, maybe you had this, if you ever have two projects, Tim, you know, one person feels like they did all the work and the rest of the people just like rode the coattails.

Therese:

And I was talking to someone earlier in their career and they said you know, what nobody told me is that everything at work is basically a group project. I thought I was going to leave that, you know, on campus, and the reality is is like I don't know any company or job where it's not matrixed anymore, Right Meaning you have to work across you know functions, levels, layers, and guess what? You're going to run into people at work that have a different approach to you, a different communication style to you, and it's the number one thing you're going to need to navigate is relationships.

Therese:

It's you know, careers are like one big group project.

Tim:

Exactly, and you know when I would say that to my students, they would look at me like Dr Mina, you have no idea what you're talking about. I said, okay, give it a shot. Yeah, you know. And give it a shot, yeah, you know.

Therese:

And yeah, I think that's why internships are so incredibly vital because you, you have to experience it and I think you know this is just true of all of us when we're young, right like we have to kind of experience it ourselves before we really like, oh, okay exactly saying it, but now I actually get it.

Tim:

Now I understand it.

Therese:

Yeah.

Tim:

Yeah, yeah. So that also kind of gets me into the idea of mindset right, how our self-talk really kind of guides our mindset. From the work that you're doing, are you finding, even in leaders and CEOs and C-suite folks, that they're having some of the same issues that young professionals are in terms of imposter syndrome, negative mindset, negative self-talk, those types of things?

Therese:

Yeah, it's universal, that you know. Most of us have a lot of chatter in our head, right, and we speak to ourselves all the time, whether or not we're aware or not, and it has a huge impact on how we show up, because our thoughts drive our emotions, which drive our behavior. So, for instance, if I'm in a meeting and I'm saying to myself you know, don't screw up, you better say something smart, right? Like everyone's going to figure out, you don't know what you're doing, right? Well then, how do you think you're going to feel when you think that thought?

Tim:

Yeah, you're gonna screw up. Yeah, your feelings are probably like nervous, anxious, worried, right.

Therese:

Well, if I were to watch anybody in a meeting when they're feeling nervous, worried, anxious, guess what they're gonna show up with that? Maybe they don't speak at all, maybe they ramble, uh, maybe they talk too fast because they're really really, really nervous. And so there are five minutes of the meeting. They, you know, they just try to run through everything, and then what happens is people just use our behaviors to tell them how to interact with us, and so they might not speak up. After you speak up, or now they might be asking you a lot of questions that are poking at, like, what do you really know? And then, all of a sudden, you leave that meeting and you're like, see, I screwed up, I don't know what I'm doing.

Therese:

And so it's universal, tim, and whether I'm coaching a C-suite person or someone just entering their career, it is the one thing that I think we all have to start managing the most, because everything emanates from the voice in our head and it's like a billboard on our forehead. We may not think we're saying it out loud, but we are projecting it, and so if you're not aware of that, that's like the first thing to manage, and I'm not a fan of trying to, like you know, just just you know fool yourself with platitudes like oh, you can do whatever you put your mind to, cause we don't, you know. I mean, we can say that to ourselves. But then our next thought is like, yeah, that's not true.

Tim:

Yeah, that's not true, and I think it's to learn the skill of how.

Therese:

How can you offer yourself and catch yourself with thoughts that are not supportive of your goal? And then how can I stay curious about it? So, for instance, if your thought is like you know, don't screw up, they're going to find out, you know, you don't know what you're doing, just pause and say okay, is that true? Would I say that to my best friend? What evidence do I have that says I don't know what I'm doing? And if you, that can be a 20 second pause. And then, if you stay curious, then the next thing is okay. Well then, what is true and what could help me in this meeting? And so it's not like oh don't worry, everything will work out fine.

Therese:

Maybe more supportive self-talk is you don't have to be perfect at everything, stay curious. Talk is you don't have to be perfect at everything, stay curious. And now your anxiety may not be at a 10, might be at a three, and I guess what? Sometimes the best value you bring in the meetings isn't like I have to say something smart, sometimes it's I have to ask a good question. I just that's your contribution, to stay curious and like wow, have we ever thought about this or how would this impact that? And all of a sudden people are like, wow, what a great question. And so.

Therese:

I think we can relieve ourselves from this thinking sometimes of like we have to be perfect or we have to say the exact right thing.

Tim:

Let me ask you a question about questions, because I'm somebody that I ask a lot of questions and most of the time when I'm asking those questions it's because I need clarity. It's very rarely ever am I challenging somebody. It's more for clarity, it's more for guidance, it's more for those types of things. It's more for clarity, it's more for guidance, it's more for those types of things. What are some techniques? Because when people ask questions, a lot of times the people that are being asked the questions they're feeling attacked or challenged for some reason. What are some techniques for the questioner to be able to ask questions so that the person being questioned doesn't feel attacked?

Therese:

Yeah, yeah, questions can really come off as something that we have to defend or deflect, and if you're not trying to do that, as you described, they have a very simple, very simple thing you could start to do, and that is add context to why you're asking the question, and that is add context to why you're asking the question Meaning. So, like you just said, I'm just trying to continuously improve or understand more. That's your motive for asking a question, and if people don't know your motive, then usually they assume the worst. So, for instance, let's say you know, you know, just for speed, you ask a question like why did you do it that way? Why did you do it that way? To others.

Therese:

The way it hits their ears is like I got to defend why I did it this way, and he doesn't know everything about why I did it Right, and so the responses you're going to get feel like they're from a defensive posture. But if you just said, hey, I'm still in learning mode, I'm not looking to point fingers, I'm just looking to improve the process overall. Why did you do it that way? Well, now someone knows, right, like, oh, I'll probably tell you a lot more, as opposed to hold and hide some information, right, because I know what you're trying to get at. If you don't share context to why you're asking a question, most people will make a wrong assumption about it. And then you get weird answers or you get like this you know defensive posture and you're like wait, I, I, I didn't, I didn't want this to go in a negative way and all of a sudden now feels like you know, I'm a lawyer, you know asking tough questions to, you know plaintiff.

Tim:

Yeah, you start hearing the law and order theme in your head. Is there any you know? Is there one or two tips that we haven't talked about that young professionals could start doing now? That would benefit them as they're starting their jobs or they're ready to move up to the next level in management or leadership.

Therese:

Yeah, I mean we covered several of them from the book Mindset Listening Story. Here's the next one I would give Engaging with Presence. So this is the idea that there's something called status behaviors that you know, when we were, you know our ancestors were first walking the earth, we were looking for signals from others that would tell us oh, I should follow them, they'll keep me safe, they'll protect me right, they'll find a food source right. We were before. We had communication like verbal communication. We were looking for signals. That has not really completely left our DNA. And so even when you're starting off in your career, where you may not have positional power right, maybe you're the intern or it's like you're just a new associate Be aware of the behavioral and verbal signals you're giving that lower your status. It's not to try to overpower someone.

Therese:

The goal is to try to match status with the people that you're interacting with, right? So, for instance, let's say you're about to graduate and you're going for interviews. Now, how you show up will indicate your status and trying to match status. An example of low status would be well, I've only had one internship. I worked a retail job, but I'm a really hard worker.

Therese:

What you just did there was lower your own status because you pre-qualified your capabilities. Instead, high status would have been I've have. You know, I have an internship experience that has taught me X, y and Z that I know I can apply to this job. So now you're not highlighting you know your. You know the fact you didn't have a lot of internships to what you could springboard from your existing internship. But it also is about how concise you speak. I have a nephew interviewing for summer internships and the thing he said to me is like you know, I, I, when I get nervous and I get asked a question, I ramble, and so a status change for him is to practice how to answer questions concisely, right, right. So that's, that's going to match status.

Therese:

You know making eye contact, even virtually right You're making eye contact how you're holding your posture. So I would encourage, like that's another area to really focus on, because it's sending all these nonverbal signals that indicate, Ooh, I should keep listening to you or I think I'll pass.

Tim:

Right, yeah, you know that, that that whole interview process is is again, I, think we put so much pressure on ourselves, and one of the things that I talk about a lot in in preparing people for for job interviews is you're going to be asked questions. That number one you should be prepared for, and if you get nervous, the whole thing is think about it in bullet points, you know. Here's two things that you should know about me.

Tim:

Oh, here's three things that I did in that job, and it really kind of gets your brain back into being one point and being succinct and by saying here's two things, whoever's listening is going to say wow okay. They're not going to expect, you know, to get the answer three minutes later down the road. They're going to say okay, bam, bam.

Therese:

That's exactly the advice I gave to my nephew, because it gives you a little bit of a track, right, if you start with there's three things or there's two things, now you have a little guardrail that you put up virtually, you know, mentally, for yourself to stay on point.

Tim:

Right, but it's hard. I you know, especially the way, the way that we do interviews. Now, a lot of times you know whether it's every on the phone interview like this, and I tell people they have to be comfortable with no matter what it is. Yeah, I'm, I'm much better in person than I am on something like this, but we still have to practice. We still have to get better. And even even though, for me, I'm much better in person, I still have to practice. I still have to get better and understand that, no matter where we are, we can always get better. Even, I would say even the, the, the, the best of the best that we, you know, see, you know the tony robbins, the simon cynics, the, you know lewis howes of the world who are doing these things, and, and and are the big names. I'm telling you they're practicing oh 100.

Therese:

And what you weren't, what you didn't see, what none of us saw was 20 years of grinding and making mistakes, Like we only see them at the pinnacle of their career and you're not recognizing all these things they had to learn to do, just like, like we do. I think the point you made is brilliant about practicing. It's one thing to like mentally prepare for an interview, but once you now are nervous and you're looking at you know another person's face and now your self-talk is getting all like oh my gosh, this is so. You know what if I don't get it? What if they don't like me? Practicing helps you create the muscle memory to be able to manage through moments where you feel a little anxious.

Therese:

And I'll give you one other tip that actually helped me last week. Most of us now are using AI tools that transcribe our meetings, and this tip immediately helped me. I went back and I read my transcript of a meeting I had and I realized how many times I used the filler word so, so, this, so that, and I like, oh my gosh, I wasn't even aware of it. There's so many tools now that can even help us catch and become more self-aware of how we communicate.

Tim:

You're spot on with that. You really are. And it's funny that you bring that up, because you know, when we did the pre-interview, you know, my wife was sitting right next to me and she said do you know how many times you said right? You would ask a question, you would say right, or you'd make a statement and you'd say right. I said I had no idea and I'll tell you. And then I put then I pulled those. I did exactly what you did. I pulled those transcripts.

Therese:

Okay, Goodness, oh, my goodness, you know here's where I do think that sometimes we can hyper fixate on it and it's not very helpful. I do think there's a balance, because we all use filler words. It's just how humans talk, and to try to like think, okay, I'm never going to use a filler word is just unrealistic, and most of us don't catch other people's filler words unless it's excessive. Think we should all let ourselves off the hook a little bit. We all do it. The name of the game isn't to try to eliminate every single filler word. It's just to not have so much of a pattern where we are using it in every sentence.

Tim:

Right, and figure out why we're using it when we are using it and work on whatever technique that is to to reduce them. Right, you know, whether it's silence, whether it's pausing to think, whether it's confidence, whether it's preparation. I mean, there's so many different reasons why we do it and there's some things, like you said we they're never going to be completely eliminated but how we can actually work on reducing them in the situation that we're using them repeatedly. Yeah, Nailing that down, but Therese, thank you so much. Where can people find you if they want to work with?

Therese:

you? Yeah Well, first find me on LinkedIn, so it's just my name. I post very, very regularly and you know content, just like this. The next best thing is to go to the facilitation advantage dot com. A couple of things are there. One is free self-assessment, and I'm a big believer of you know, when you're trying to learn some of these skills, like, don't try to do it all at once, it's overwhelming and we already have very full plates. The self-assessment helps you just pinpoint oh, I think I could get better at this. So if it's presence, if it's storytelling, if it's mindset just like how you found the book it's more of a resource, not to be cover to cover, read, but like go in the spot where you feel like, oh, I could really improve, and it would have a big impact and proven it would have a big impact. From there you'll also see there's individual coaching. We do kind of targeted workshops on presence or mindset or listening, and then full workshops on all of the facilitation skills.

Tim:

Yeah, just kind of a shameless plug for you. I really enjoyed the video series that you all did. You know the pie chart of. You know the different stages. I thought that was at least for me. It was very helpful and provided you know a lot of great information.

Therese:

Thank you. We really wrote the book for non-professional facilitators. I think sometimes, when you hear the word facilitate, you're like, well, I'm not a professor, I'm not a teacher, and what my co-author and I really tried to do is like no, these are core skills that everyone needs and if we can break it down into something that feels a little bit more reachable and achievable, then we help everyone become better at, you know, collaboration and communication.

Tim:

Absolutely Well. Teresa. Again, thank you so much for spending some time with the Speaking with Confidence community. I really do appreciate it. I thought you provided some really good value, some great tips for our audience to go out and start doing things now. It's not something that you have to wait a week to be able to start implementing. You can start doing some of these things today.

Therese:

So thank you so much Thanks. This was a great conversation.

Tim:

Take care. We'll talk to you soon. Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcastcom to get your free ebook Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and how to Overcome them. You can also register for the Forming for Public Speaking course. Always remember your voice has the power to change the world. We'll talk to you next time, take care.

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