Speaking With Confidence

Creating Trust and Value: Communication Lessons for Leaders from Melissa Robinson-Winemiller

• Tim Newman • Season 1 • Episode 87

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Have you ever wondered why empathy is often considered a “soft skill,” and whether it truly has a place in driving real results within leadership, organizations, and communication? On this week’s episode of Speaking with Confidence, I tackle this question head-on with my guest, Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller, an expert in empathy, emotional intelligence, and visionary leadership.

I’m Tim Newman, your host–a recovering college professor turned communication coach. Every week, I help listeners build the skills and confidence they need to show up powerfully in every conversation. Today, I’m thrilled to welcome Dr. Winemiller, whose mission is to help leaders become future visionaries by making empathy skills-based, data-driven, and results-oriented. Melissa brings a rich background as both a world-traveling musician and a former academic who has dedicated her life to understanding and teaching empathy for profit, productivity, and innovation.

Our conversation kicks off with Melissa’s fascinating backstory: how a lifelong passion for music took her across the globe, on tours and prestigious stages, and even saw her playing French horn alongside legends like Ray Charles and conversing with David Ogden Steers (MAS*H’s Winchester). As Melissa shares, her journey from the world of performance to academia—and ultimately to empathy research—was shaped by witnessing both the highs of artistic connection and the lows of broken, unempathetic systems.

Here's what we covered:

  • Melissa’s journey from international touring musician to empathy expert and academic
  • Life and communication lessons from the world of music performance
  • The vulnerability of public speaking versus musical performance
  • Teaching and connecting with students through listening and individualized communication
  • The real impact of empathy (and lack thereof) in education and business
  • Why empathy is undervalued—and how research supports its ROI
  • Strategies for leaders to foster trust, engagement, and innovation through empathy
  • The Johari Window model for communication and self-awareness
  • The difference between kindness and niceness in leadership and business
  • Practical ways to build empathy in teams and organizations (plus when real change requires a leadership overhaul)
  • The case for embedding empathy in educational systems from an early age
  • Real world examples from Melissa’s book about the financial and human costs of broken organizations
  • Where to find Melissa’s book, connect online, and catch her TEDx talk (soon to be released!)

Melissa’s insights go far beyond theory—they’re deeply rooted in lived experience, rigorous research, and a powerful vision for future-forward leadership. Don’t miss this episode if you want to learn how to use empathy not just to “feel good,” but to drive lasting, meaningful results in your work and life.

Thanks for joining me—Tim Newman—on this journey to speaking with confidence. Be sure to check out speakingwithconfidencepodcast.com for your free eBook, “Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and How to Overcome Them,” and stay tuned for our next episode!

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Tim Newman:

Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, a podcast that helps you build the soft skills that lead you to real results. Communication, storytelling, public speaking, and showing up with confidence in every conversation that counts. I'm Tim Newman, a recovering college professor, turned communication coach, and I'm thrilled to guide you on a journey to becoming a powerful communicator. Today's guest is Dr. Melissa Robinson Weinmiller. Dr. Weinmiller's goal is to help leaders become the visionaries of the future by teaching them how to use empathy as something that's skills-based, data-driven, and outcomes-oriented. After being forced to leave academia and a flourishing musical career, she continued to ask how leaders could be so unempathetic and his system so broken. Fast forward, and she's so passionate about the single emotional intelligence skill that she's dedicated her life to understanding what it is, how we use it, and how it can drive profit, productivity, and innovation. Whether on the TEDx stage, in her book, or through her continued research, Melissa's goal is to change the world one heart at a time. Melissa, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to talk to you today.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Thank you so much for having me, Tim. I'm so excited to be here. You and your audience allowing me to be on. Thank you.

Tim Newman:

Well, I mean, you you have such an interesting backstory. Uh, you were a traveling musician for a long, long time. And and can you just, before we get into the weeds, can you just talk about that a little bit? You know, what that was like, you know, the traveling the world, you know, being on stages, playing music, who you played with, the, the, the, your best memory, all those types of things that really kind of um, you know, for the lay people like me, yeah, we we we love we love musicians and the travel and and we and we think it's all these other things. Tell give us a little bit of background on that for us.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Absolutely. Um, it was all I ever wanted to be. Like when I was young, I knew I didn't know what I wanted. I mean, you know, I played piano a little bit, and it's not like I came from a musical family. It just was something that that I just loved. So as I got older, I decided this is what I was going to do because I might be broke, but I was going to be happy. You know, musicians aren't known for being wealthy. So, and you know, I I actually consider myself very fortunate because um I got to do a lot of things that I wouldn't have gotten to do otherwise. Like I got to go be a soloist in Rome for a summer. I mean, hang out in Rome for a summer on someone else's dime. That's terrible. I don't know what you did.

Tim Newman:

That's awful.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Oh, the pasta was terrible. You know, or or I got to tour Hungary, I got to tour Amsterdam, um, I toured all over the US, and and I got to meet people that I wouldn't have gotten to meet otherwise. I got to play with Ray Charles.

Tim Newman:

And oh my goodness.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

I can tell you that he, it's funny because you know, these people, these big names, they they each have their own thing. Like Ray Charles was like, Don't talk to me. It was in our contract. Don't talk to me, don't, don't community, do not approach me, do not anything. And it's like, okay, that's fine. And then in a different job that I did, I was working with David Ogden Styers. Um, your audience might remember him. He was Winchester on MASH, he was in Beauty and the Beast, yeah, that guy. And um, he was fantastic, he was brilliant, he wanted to talk, he was like a French horn player. That's what I played, and he was a French horn player in his younger days, and he wanted to talk all about it and was really warm and open, and you know, so it just it just depended. But these aren't people that I would have met just hanging out, you know. I music gave me a lot of opportunities. I just wouldn't have had otherwise.

Tim Newman:

Well, you you you talk about David Ogden Steers. He actually played the French horn in a couple episodes of MASH. Yes. So so now now that now that makes a whole lot of sense. I mean, it's and now that I know that it it it kind of makes me think about, you know, was that something that that he said, okay, let's add this, or was it in the script? Or you know, it's some of those things that make really make you think about how they put shows together and and really make you feel like these people are are real people, not you not not a TV show. That that's amazing. Um how how did you know traveling and and playing music and and going all over the world, how how did that inform you in terms of um life skills, communication skills, the the whole idea of uh you know how how we how we actually communicate with people and and what we value from that communication?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Oh man, it was invaluable. I mean, if I think about it in terms of that, both as a performer and as a teacher, you know, because as a performer, music is one way to communicate. Like when I was in Rome, I most of the orchestra was Italian. So it's not like even among the musicians there was a lot of communication, you know. I mean, from the people from different countries, sure, but you know, for in between. But yet when we were making music and the conductor was was bringing us through whatever it was, everybody knew exactly what to do. We understood the communication, we knew how this was supposed to be, even though you know we couldn't necessarily have a conversation, we could absolutely communicate.

Tim Newman:

Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

It just, you know, was a different language, really, you know, and then to take that and understand that as you're communicating with other people, whether it's playing from the stage or you know, touring with these groups, or in talking to some of the people, like I was telling you about, you know, David and I had lots of conversations about music. We had huge communication centered around this. But the cool thing about it is if you're a musician, whether you're talking to your audience or you're talking to other people or whatever you're doing, you already have something in common.

Tim Newman:

Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

So you can start right there.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, that that that's so awesome. And you know, I tell people that that with this podcast, uh, I've been blessed and it's opened up my eyes about a lot of things, you know, things that I never really thought that I would be able to do, or or or or talk to people. And, you know, we're talking to people all over the world with the podcast, and and one of the things I found is, you know, we're we're all struggling with the same types of things. We're all struggling with the idea of connection. We're all struggling with how we become clearer, how we get people to understand us, how we understand other people. And yeah, it's in a way, it's so good to hear that that it's not just me, it's not just us, that other people are struggling with the same thing and finding ways to be able to connect with people. And music is one way that you can actually do that.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yes. Yes. And you can do it in different generations, you can do it in different nations, you can do it in places where otherwise you might not have anything in common at all.

Tim Newman:

Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

You know?

Tim Newman:

That that that's that's amazing. Uh and you, the other thing with with you that uh again, part of your amazing backstory that that is to me is just incredible and phenomenal. You know, you you had you had that other life as being a musician, and then you trans transitioned into the life of academia, and we'll get into that. Uh I don't like even I don't I don't even like talking about that, you know. I mean, academia that that's so last year, you know. But yes. But you've been on stages your almost your entire life playing music. What was the what was it like transitioning from being on stage as a musician to being on stages and being in front of people as a communicator, as a speaker?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

It was kind of a shock, honestly. And your audience actually might be interested in hearing this because, you know, I mean, stage fright and being in front of people and and being able to communicate well is something I think we all deal with. But I think it's important to say, you know, I was on stage from the time I was six, eight, something like that.

Tim Newman:

Wow.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

And so I was very comfortable on stage when I had my French horn with me, you know, and and like if I was doing a recital, I could talk a little bit about the music or I could, you know, do that kind of thing. But all of a sudden, when I had to put that horn down and actually go out and speak, and I was the instrument, right? It was a whole different ball game. And it's a it's a set of skills I've had to learn and finesse.

Tim Newman:

Yeah. So what changes did you have to make? What what what mindset changes did did you have to make? Because because again, you know, I'm not, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but to me, I kind of liken it to, you know, lioness in his blanket, right? You know, you're yeah, right?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah. Kinda. So I don't know how true this is, but psychologically, I mean, because you know, I worked with singers, I worked in operas, I did that kind of thing. And there was always this psychological aspect to singing, because for me, my instrument was outside of myself, right? French horns out here, I put it in the case, it's done. For a singer, you are your instrument, which means that anything you do, anything you say, if I'm going to drink hot liquids, I'm gonna drink cold liquids, I'm gonna go out the night before and to go to a concert, I slept and the window was open. It all affects your instrument. So you don't get to disconnect from it ever. It is who you are. The other part of that is as long as you have an external instrument, psychologically, you have a barrier between you and your audience. Right. Same as you would with a podium or a microphone stand or anything like that.

Tim Newman:

Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Which is very different than being an opera singer or being someone who's speaking, and you go out, and there is nothing between you and the audience. You are very vulnerable. So it's a completely different mindset. And that's as close as I can come to putting the two together.

Tim Newman:

You know, I you you bring up some really good points that I I didn't really think about from a singer's perspective. And you you know, you hear people talk about it, you know, a singer's got a cold, so they're not going to perform today, or they're or they're gonna postpone a show. But uh a cold could could really be a real problem if you, as a singer, if you try and push through it, you know, from um from your vocal cords, from from a whole whole bunch of other things, you could damage them, and it's going the sound is going to be different. And if you it to me, everything is about providing value to your audience, right? And if your sound isn't going to be what you want your sound to be, are you truly providing the value for those people that are are paying their discretionary dollars to come and see you in their in their free time, right? And and so I think there's there's a lot of other things to think about. You know, again, I I never thought about you know what you drink, you know, hot versus cold, alcohol versus non-alcohol, you know, stay staying up late, getting sleep, it's it's so important for you know a number of different things. I but I never really thought about from a from a seer's perspective as well.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Oh yeah. And in fact, you you kind of have to be careful because if you do try to muscle through this stuff, you can do damage. Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, you think about like Julie Andrews, right? One of the best of the best. And she had vocal node surgery and she hasn't sang since because it it ruined her vocal cords.

Tim Newman:

So that's a shame.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah, it is, truly is.

Tim Newman:

You know, as I as I'm as I'm thinking, I I I may have made a reference that our audience may not know with Linus um in in his blanket. Go look up Charlie Brown, you'll figure it out, you know? There you go. So you transitioned from uh being a traveling musician into into academia, and you know, what was that like, you know, teaching students, and how did you have to to to change your communication style um to to really connect with students to get them to understand what you're trying to teach? And and you know, for me, I I think connecting with students is is one of the hardest things to do because you've got let's just say 30 students in a classroom at a time, they all learn a little bit different, they all listen a little bit differently, they all pay attention a little bit differently, and trying to teach them something, it it's it's about really connecting with them as a group, but also individually. So, how how did you make that transition? What did you learn there?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

You know, the the funny thing about music is that when you're doing it right, it's 80% listening and 20% making noise. And I think that teaching. Wow, yeah, I mean, that's really what it is. It's 80% listening to make sure you're fitting into everything that's going on around you. And then 20% of the time you're actually making noise. And teaching, I thought was the same thing. I sh I needed to be listening and know what my students were doing and understand and connect with them, whether it was a room of 100 or you know, one-on-one private lessons. So it's still 80% listening and 20% making noise.

Tim Newman:

Wow, that that that is that that that's so simple, you know, especially when we when we think about the whole idea that you know, you and I talked, I I think the biggest piece of communication is is listening to begin with. And and that just really kind of puts it in a nutshell for you, right? I mean, if it if you're if you're listening, um, you've got a much better chance of of actually connecting with uh with the rest of the students. That that that's so impactful. So 80% listening, 20% making noise audio. Write that down. That's that's that that that that's a good one. Um it it it it it's so it's so impactful and and so and so poignant and simple to understand that you know if you if you have if you had keep that in mind for pretty much everything you do, you know the better off you're gonna be.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah, I agree. That's that's something that I've that has stuck with me throughout, and it it seems to apply across the board.

Tim Newman:

So so let's get into the idea of your you know your specialty, empathy and and emotional intelligence. Um, I I think our educational system is broken, top to bottom, left to right, up to down, diagonals, which all every which way that we that we look at it. And one of the biggest issues from my perspective is we don't ever really teach students one how to think, which impacts them truly understanding who they are as individuals. And that's to me where we start to get that emotional intelligence and trying to get them to understand um you really have to know who you are as an individual before you can really go and connect and provide value to others.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah. Well, number one, I mean, you know, we talked about this. I'm a recovering academic too. So I'm with you 110% on all of that. I'll just say we can just drop the mic. You know, that's perfect. But and I do agree with you that the system is broken in how we're teaching students. And I think a lot of it has to do with this idea of we're turning out a product, we're turning out a product, we're turning out, and the and the professors are treated very much the same way. We're cogs in a machine, you turn out a product, turn on a product. And people aren't products.

Tim Newman:

Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

You know, I mean, that's these are people. These are people who are growing. They're at very, you know, important times in their lives when they're learning how they want to be and who they want to be and how they want to get there. And as teachers, we should be able to help them and mentor them as much as we can. It shouldn't just be widgets, cogs, widgets, cogs. Right. And unfortunately, that's that's a lot of what I saw.

Tim Newman:

Yeah. Yeah. And and and I think that's again again, top to bottom. Uh, you know, in the institutions that that I was in was the same way. My you know, my wife was a uh re retired public school teacher, say same, same types of things. And um, you know, if if we if we don't teach them when they're younger how to think or that emotional intelligence, you know, to know who they are, to be able to control their emotions, to be able to, you know, tr truly be able to uh feel you know things and and be able to re act and react on them in the moment, okay. What ends up happening is they get to be at my age and they they can't figure out why they haven't been successful, they can't figure out why they can't keep a job, they can't figure out you know, all these different types of of uh of life skills, but that also that also goes to to the leaders of teams and organizations who haven't done that and how they actually treat the people on their teams.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yes. Yes, absolutely. There were two really important studies done. One was like by Bon Traeger and Marquez, I don't remember the other one now, but they actually went through and surveyed a couple of business schools and they gave them the top 10, you know, important skills they needed to have, you know, and and there was the usual ones, you know, statistics, human capital resource, da-da-da-da-da-da. And these are in business schools. So we're talking our education system. And at the bottom, every time was empathy. These students didn't value it because they hadn't been taught that it was something to be valued.

Tim Newman:

Right. Right. And you know, I I I look back at my career and you know, I I try and be somebody that is is caring and helpful and and wants to do the right thing uh for both the individual person, the organization, et cetera. And I and I I tell people all the time, when I make decisions, um sometimes I make decisions that it doesn't work out well for me, right? Because it's not one, it's not about me. It's about what's what's best for you or the team or what have you. And sometimes it's not gonna work out for me. And and that's you you have to be okay with that. And there's times I I I can look back on my career in a couple of different scenarios very vividly, where one I did things that if my administration knew that I did, I'd be in trouble. But it was to me, it was the right thing to do.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah.

Tim Newman:

But also there were times when I didn't know what the right thing to do was. And that, you know, aided me because you know, I I make a decision and um sometimes it worked out right, sometimes uh it had the opposite effect. And uh and I think that's something that we we as individuals also have to learn as part of that emotional intelligence thing, is to be able to to to think things through, make a make the best decision that you actually that that you possibly can and and go with it.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yes. I agree. I mean, because the in what you're talking about, you're not just thinking about your emotions, you're thinking about the emotions of others. You're not just thinking about your situation, but the situation of others. And the beautiful thing with empathy, I mean, people assume that it's all feeling, and it's not. It's actually understanding and connection. But when it's at its best, it goes in both directions.

Tim Newman:

Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

So as you're trying to have empathy and be a good leader through this understanding and connection, other people can look at you and say, you know what, he's doing the best he can with what he has at the time. You know, let's let's jump in and and do the best we can to help him out as well.

Tim Newman:

Right. And so what have you found in working with with leaders, teams, and organizations uh about emotional intelligence and empathy? And and one of the biggest challenges that that you're facing in terms of getting them to understand that they've they've got it that number one, at least and and after reading your book, I'm I'm glad we agree on this, that these are skills. It's not something that you're born with. These are skills that that we we can learn and get better at at practicing them. Yeah. So so what are the biggest challenges you're facing in terms of of working with teams and and organizations about understanding the benefits of having emotional intelligence and the benefits of of having empathy?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

You know, the first one that I run into a lot is, and and especially with some from older generations or that are very inmired in the this is the way we do things because we've always done it this way, and this is how we're gonna do it, kind of thing, is actually explaining this is what empathy is, and this is how it helps. It is data driven, it is results-oriented, it is skills-based, this isn't a touchy-feely thing because business has to get done. I mean, at the end of the day, from an empathy standpoint, if you have no business, then you're not helping anybody. Right. So this organism has to be able to function. You know, it isn't all touchy-feely and coddling to the point that this business is going to sink, because that doesn't help anybody.

Tim Newman:

Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

But it is something that will increase innovation, will increase productivity, will increase profit. And I kind of get this are you sure? Are you this is this isn't what I thought it was? And it's like, no, let me let me show you, let me explain, and let me take you through it. And it's a lagging indicator, it's not going to be immediate, but you'll be amazed over time what it'll do.

Tim Newman:

Right. Right. And and what what happens? How do you go about how do you go about you know working with with an with a with a leader or an organization in in building that emotional intelligence and empathy? Because I I I kind of I kind of picture things in my head that they get it for a second and then they fight you, and they said, no, it's not gonna work. And then they get it for a second, then they fight you, and then they get it for a second again, you know, and and it's kind of it's it's it just seems to me that because it's so ingrained in in the in the fabric of of business and society of change, you know, how does that process go?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

You know, usually if I can get them to stick with it long enough that they start to see results, that's when they go, oh, that crazy redhead lady was right. That did work. Yeah, look at that. Their profits are better, we have better productivity, our employee engagement scores are up. All of a sudden, we got people coming out of the woodwork to give us innovative ideas that are going to make things better, you know. Oh, who knew? And and once they see the results and and just how simple it really is, you know, I mean, it's you you have to practice it, right? It's not a performance, it's not something you do one time, it's a practice, it's something you do every day. But once they get a hold of that, it's kind of like, oh, and then it's just a matter of habit building. But at first, you know, sometimes, and and I'll admit, if I have someone that's just like dead against it and think that I can come in and just, you know, put it in a box and make it work, I I won't take those those people on because they don't want to learn, you know, they want me to fix it, they don't want to learn how to fix it.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, and you can't fix it. I mean, that's that's the and well let's let's go down that road for a second here. Um can it be fixed? So let let's let's say, you know, you know, pick pick a scenario where um le leadership has has truly alienated their their team, they've truly alienated their their their organization. How difficult and can that be fixed? Can that be you know come in and um change that culture? You know, and I'm I'm definitely not overnight, but but but can those types of situations actually be fixed, or does that truly require, you know, a wholesale you know, cleanup of of leadership and most of the team members?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

That's a tough one because trust is what happens when words and actions align over time.

Tim Newman:

Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

So if you have someone that has alienated their team that bad that they've created a toxic work environment, that's usually not a one-time thing. Right. Their words and elections have words and actions have aligned over time to show that they are this person and their people trust that they will be that person. So to suddenly have that person come in and say, hey, I've changed. It's like a wonderful life, it's all going to be different, you know?

Tim Newman:

Right, right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Nobody, nobody trusts that. So they have to realign their words and actions over time, which means they really have to want to do it. People stick with what's comfortable because it's what they've done. So there better be a real good reason for that person to change their behavior that drastically. It can be done, but it's unusual.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, and and that that's what I I think that's what I struggle with when when I look at organizations, you know, and and again, I never wish bad on on anybody, but it seems to me a lot of times in those situations and scenarios, that person who has eroded all the trust has has had to go through something traumatic themselves. And and they're and then I wouldn't say that they're broken, but they're they they come out a very different person on the other end. And you know, uh again, don't want to see that happen to people, but but a lot of times when they come out on the other end, they're they're completely different and they see where they've made a mistake. And and then again, it like you say it it's tough to to again build that trust and rapport back.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yes. Well, it's so much easier to build it up and keep it built because the second you break it down, it it's that trust factor, no like and trust. If people don't trust you, they're not gonna be willing to believe you and go with you.

Tim Newman:

So you know so what so what's the key to teaching this and and getting people to understand and embrace embrace this early in life? Um because uh obviously there there are some people, and I'm gonna say you and I are probably those people that have always had it, right? Um or may maybe we learned it from our parents, maybe maybe we learned it from from another six significant other in our uh in our inner circle. But how how do we teach this in in a way that is going to really affect the masses or or bunches of people at the same time?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

If I lived in a perfect Melissa world where I could do whatever I wanted to do, the best thing we could do is actually start instilling this early. Um other countries actually use what's called social emotional learning. And unfortunately, in our country, they've kind of twisted it. So it doesn't necessarily mean what it used to mean in these other places, but they actually learn pro-social skills like empathy, and they do it starting at like age five and six, and it'll go all the way through until they're like 16. So these skills are actually embedded in these kids as skills so that you're not trying to teach it later when it becomes harder to teach. Because empathy, empathy is is this really broad thing. There is a biological basis, okay, you know, that we we are born with it to some degree. Now, some people have more than others, but it is there for most people. There are a small subset that don't really have any, you know, your psychopaths, narcissists, macribins, but most of us have it. But there's also um, it also has a footing in psychology, in philosophy, in neurobiology. So it covers all these different areas, it goes so far beyond just being a feeling.

Tim Newman:

Okay.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

And to just all of a sudden, you know, someone's in an MBA program at 25 and say, here, use empathy.

Tim Newman:

It's like, well, that yeah. That's something it's just not gonna work.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

No.

Tim Newman:

Yeah. That's almost like saying, you have your right hand, just start start right with your left hand.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah, what's the problem? Just use your other hand.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, it's that's it's just not gonna work. No, but but that but that's really what we're dealing with, and and I I think a lot of times also people uh don't truly understand what empathy is either. Yeah. And um they think that empathy means that you know you tell somebody something and you get your way because you've told them that. And that's that that what do you think of that?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

I think that unfortunately there will always be someone looking to get that return on investment, that it's a transaction. Yeah, I give you this, you give me that. And there will always be those people. One of the things I say is that having empathy doesn't mean you don't have boundaries.

Tim Newman:

Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

You know, that the you know, there will always be people that will take advantage of that, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have it, just you need to be aware.

Tim Newman:

And and setting those boundaries, I I think sometimes is it is difficult too, because knowing what those boundaries should actually be and and how they how they're kind of fluid with with different people as well.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yes.

Tim Newman:

And you know, you know, I think about it from a from a business perspective. Um people people think that they uh people think that being treated fairly is the same. But it's not. Um th that's that's part of the you know, the the the issue in in language as well.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yes, it is, absolutely. I actually talk about this how kindness and nice is not the same thing. You know, you can you can be nice, nice is a social construct, nice is a societal thing, it's how we treat each other so that life is smoother. Kindness is something where you're actually legitimately looking out for the other person, there's a give and take, it's a different thing. So you can be nice and not be kind at all, just like you can be kind and not be especially nice.

Tim Newman:

And and and again, that that that's that's another one one of those things that I I think people truly need to understand. Uh and and act on and act on that, right? Um because you know, people can see through things uh much better than than you think that they actually can.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yes. Yes.

Tim Newman:

Tell us about it, you know, because I I I I've read a good portion of it, and it's in there you you tell you get a little bit deeper into your story, and I and I don't want to want to get into that, but but you know, you use your story as examples of uh uh empathetic leadership and so so instead of me talking about you do you you tell us about your book.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

So really the only reason I bring my story into it is just to show how damaging unempathic leadership can be.

Tim Newman:

Yeah.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

And through the book, I want to be able to bring in this narrative so that people can say, oh yeah, I recognize parts of this or I understand bits of that, because that's the big thing. I I know other people see this too. You and I do. We we've we've talked about this. You know, other people understand that there's a severe lack of something, and what are we going to do about it? So in the book, I actually make the case why businesses should do this, how it actually does create better profit productivity and innovation and why, with more generational friction, with the advent of AI, with big tech, with big data, that people and companies and leaders who don't actually put this in place are only going to stand to lose as things keep moving quicker and farther into the future.

Tim Newman:

Yeah. And you know, you know, it in your book, you you you ch chapter eight is is about communication. Um and you and you talk about the the Holmes report um and how much we're spending or how much organizations are are actually spending in terms of uh re replacing uh employees, you know, all these types of things. And it's an extraordinary amount of money.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yes. Yeah. That's why I put in the examples that I did, because it's such a big amount of money that it's it's hard to actually get a hold of how much it is. You know?

Tim Newman:

Yeah, it's it's it it it's insane. Um and and you know, I I like that you broke broke it down into you know b big big businesses, big corporations, into and into smaller organizations. And you know, may maybe a bigger organization can can absorb that financial the financial cost. Understand there's a difference between a financial cost and human cost. They may be able to absorb that financial cost, but the smaller organizations may not be able to absorb that financial cost, and they're definitely can't absorb that human cost.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Correct. Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is, is when they lose these humans, they're not only losing the cost for what's happening today, they're losing institutional knowledge, they're losing the innovation that could come later, they're losing all of the future that goes along with that human being. It's not a machine part where you pull one part in and you throw the other part out. It's it goes so much deeper than that. And they don't quite realize just how deep this can go.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, and and and how long it can go, right? It it can go deep and and and long. I mean, just think about how long it takes to replace somebody. It it it could be it could be nine months to a year to from the time somebody leaves to the time you you get somebody hired and you get them back to the skill level or the proficiency level of the person that left and how much time has been lost, how much uh how much human capital human capital has been spent. Right? And so so there's you know, a lot uh to me, a lot of times we f I think we focus a lot on the financial piece, which is important, obviously, but we completely dis discount and disregard that that human that human piece, that human capital piece, and what it does not only to the organization, what it does to the the co-workers on that team, what it does to that to that unit, and to the overall business itself.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah, no, it absolutely does. And I think this is part of the things that part of the things that we're missing when we look at the big cost. It's not just the cost that comes all the way down to the bottom line, it's all those costs above it. You know, what is happening with the coworkers? What is happening with the leadership? How much time are we having to spend in interviews with this person to try and get somebody else in? How much time are we spending trying to retrain them? You know, and as people have to continue to go through this mill, it does damage. So you're damaging the people that then go out into the next job or the coworkers or the team and the the vertical integration of these people. And you know, people aren't machines. We shouldn't be treating each other like this.

Tim Newman:

No, we should, we shouldn't. And let's just talk about it from an academic perspective. And and just so everybody understands, academic academia is not real world stuff, right? But in academia, how long does it take to replace a vacuum member? It takes a year, it takes an an entire year if you've been if you're allowed to rehire for that position, because sometimes you're not, and that could take two to three years.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yes, right? Or you might lose the position altogether.

Tim Newman:

Altogether.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yep. And now that falls on everybody else.

Tim Newman:

Uh-huh. It it absolutely does. Which hurts the students. Yes. Which is the that's the bottom line, right? So, you know, as as a faculty member, yes, it it it hurts me uh from a uh a coworker, colleague, et cetera. And okay, that's one thing. But now when when you when we start talking about we're hurting the students who it's our job as faculty, and it's our job from the institution perspective to prepare these these students um you know for life and jobs and careers, and now we don't have we don't have a qualified person to teach teach them. And so maybe could you imagine if I'm called in to cover French horn? What what am I gonna teach them? Seriously. Well you know what I mean?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah, but same. Yeah, all the time. I mean, even within a department, you know, if you're in an engineering department and you've got an electrical engineer versus a mechanical engineer, well, what's the problem? Can't you just do that?

Tim Newman:

No.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

No.

Tim Newman:

No. Sorry. Exactly.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah.

Tim Newman:

Uh yeah, it's it's it it is what it is. And and again, I I don't look at academia as real world. I mean, that's that's in a completely different world all its own. But the reality is when you when you get out into business, it it could be you know six, nine months um to to replace somebody. And and the the the the time for for interviews and and well, let's get into it. The the interview process, I think, is is antiquated across the board as well. Yes. Again, different story for a different day. Uh but how but it's in in in how we communicate our our ourselves, our our value, um, both from the from the organization interviewer perspective and the uh potential employee perspective. I think probably I think there needs to be adjustments and changes all the way around there. But yeah. But in in chapter eight, um you you have what's called the the is it the Johari? Jo H okay. Can you explain that? Because I I think this is a is a critical piece that our listeners can actually, if they can understand this, this is something they can put into practice today and understand some some communication um flaws or or how they communicate and and maybe where some um some miscommunications or drop communications can come from if they can understand this.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah, totally. Um the Jihari window is really nice, actually, because it can be applied to so many things. But in that chapter specifically, we're talking communication. And so if you picture it, you know, you're looking like a window, right? There's four quadrants. So, really what it comes down to is what you know, what you don't know, what others know, what others don't know. So you can start putting this into a communication context. Like, you know, if you're looking at this problem, well, what do you know about this problem? Well, what do you not know about this problem? Well, what do others know about that problem? Because that can feed into what you know and what you don't know. What do others not know about this problem? This is how you can pull your communication in to help them understand what's going on, you know. So in doing that, it kind of helps flush it out to what's happening internally, reflection, and what's happening externally, which is more self-awareness. Because so much of what happens, there's this disconnect between, you know, what I think I know and what's actually happening.

Tim Newman:

Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Right. And this this lets you actually break that down. You can say, well, so do I actually know what I think I know? Or, you know, if I'm getting feedback and people are being honest with me, do I maybe not know as much as I thought I did?

Tim Newman:

Exactly. And and I I think that that's so important to understand. Um, you know, I I tell people a lot that, you know, when I was 21, I knew everything and now and now I'm not sure that I know what I know. You know, you know, and it's and yeah, that's really a a good place to be, to, to be open to admitting that you don't know something, to be open to admitting that, you know, what I need probably need to learn a little bit more in this or or understand that I may I may be wrong, or I may have misunderstood this, or I may have not have have have done what I needed to to that. Um so it's it's okay to it's okay to not know. It's okay to be to tell people that you don't know. It's okay to be open to being wrong in those types of things. I I think that builds credibility. I think that builds your um your own personal knowledge base and also helps you to help other people.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Totally. Well, and it leaves you open to the person who does know. It gives an opening for that person to be say to say, well, wait, yeah, I can help you with this. Whereas otherwise I'll probably just be like, well, sounds like they got it handled.

Tim Newman:

Melissa, I don't I don't have it handled.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

I don't either. The more I know, the more I know I don't know.

Tim Newman:

Exactly. Exactly. Oh well, Melissa, where can people connect with you? This this has been awesome. Where can they connect with you?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

So the best place is probably on my website, and it's eq via vias and victoria empathy. And you can you can find me there, you can um reach out to me. I'm also on LinkedIn, I'm on um Instagram. LinkedIn is where I'm at the most. And I also have a podcast of my own called The Empathic Leader. So I do a little bit on YouTube there as well.

Tim Newman:

That's awesome. And and they can buy your book pretty much anywhere books are sold.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Absolutely. Amazon, uh Barnes and Noble, um, and there'll be an audiobook version coming out probably in about a month or so.

Tim Newman:

Oh, good. Oh, real quick, um before I forget, I I could is your is your TED Talk gonna be out soon? Is it out? I haven't been able to find it.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

It isn't out yet, but the good news is it's because I actually got an editor's pick, which is like in TEDx world. See, I didn't even know this existed, but it's Melissa, that's that is awesome.

Tim Newman:

Thank you. I'm excited. Will you let me know when it when it comes out? Because I uh you know I'd I'd love to see it and and obviously share that with with the community. That that's that's phenomenal.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Thank you. And yeah, I'd be more than happy to.

Tim Newman:

Well, Melissa, this has been great. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today. I I I really do appreciate it. And you know, I I I know our listeners are gonna get a ton of value from you, and and that I can't thank you enough for.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Well, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on. Thanks to your audience for for listening. And just, you know, I appreciate the chance to talk about empathy anytime anyone will let me.

Tim Newman:

Awesome. Well, well, well, thank you so much. Take care, and and we'll talk to you soon.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Perfect. Thank you.

Tim Newman:

Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidence podcast.com to get your free ebook, the top 21 challenges for public speakers and how to overcome them. You can also register for the Foreman for Public Speaking. Always remember your voice is a power changer. We'll talk to you next time. Take care.

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Tim Newman

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