E102: From Applause to Freedom, Peace and Impact with Holly Matthews

What does success really look like when you strip away the applause, the charts, and the shiny milestones?

In Episode 3 of the Success Beyond Money mini-series, I sit down with actress, author and coach Holly Matthews for a deeply honest conversation about how our definition of success evolves as life unfolds.

From landing a TV role at just 11 years old to signing a record deal with Sony and appearing on major platforms like Top of the Pops, Holly experienced the kind of success many people dream about. But behind the scenes, she discovered that external validation, public recognition and career milestones don’t always deliver the fulfilment we expect.

In this powerful episode, Holly shares how grief, life experience and personal growth reshaped her priorities and why freedom, peace and impact now matter more to her than applause or accolades.

This conversation explores the invisible trade-offs of success, the danger of chasing goals that aren’t truly ours, and how to build a life that actually feels good...not just one that looks good.

We Talk About

• How Holly knew she wanted to be an actress from age six
• Why childhood self-belief can shape lifelong ambition
• The reality behind early success in the entertainment industry
• The hidden pressures of being a child actor
• Moving from acting into a music career with Sony
• Why achieving big milestones didn’t always feel like success
• The myth of “I’ll be happy when…”
• Invisible trade-offs we rarely talk about when chasing success
• Understanding the real ingredients of happiness
• Why success doesn’t have just one path
• The difference between applause and inner fulfilment
• Protecting your peace and setting stronger boundaries
• Why freedom, peace and impact now define success for Holly

Who is Holly Matthew's?

Holly Matthews is a former TV actress (Byker Grove, Waterloo Road, Casualty) and singer (Signed to Sony at 18, appeared on TOTP’S, MTV, Disney) who learnt how to use her ‘weird’ to stand out from the crowd.

After the death of her husband to brain cancer in 2017 (when she was just 32), the Mum of 2 began her mission to help others to embrace their own ‘weird’, build their confidence and feel ‘more happy and less crappy’.

Be Unforgettably weird checklist

Brave Moves Cheat sheet

This is Episode 3 of a 5-part series where I interview powerful business owners about what success really means once the money is there.

We’ll explore:

• Identity beyond income
• The cost of ambition
• Time vs money
• Health, relationships & legacy
• What happens when you realise “more” isn’t the answer

If you’ve ever wondered:

• “Will I finally feel successful when I hit my next income goal?”
• “Why doesn’t this feel how I thought it would?”
• “Am I allowed to want something different?”

This series is for you.

Want to connect? Find me here:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamemmahine

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-hine

Website:  https://www.emmahine.co.uk

You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/@EmmaHineStrategy

Transcript

Hello, here we are for another amazing episode and today I am super excited. I have the lovely Holly Matthews with me. Hello Holly, how are you? 

I'm great, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and chat with you. 

Super, super excited. Okay, we're going to dive straight in because that's the way that I roll. Take us back a little bit and tell us what did success used to mean to you when you were a wee girl? 

That's a good one. So when I was really young, so I knew I wanted to be an actress when I was younger. That is all I wanted to be. I wanted to be an actress. And that was from really young. Like, I mean, I'm talking six or seven. Once I knew that was a thing, I was like, that sounds brilliant. You get to play forever and play pretend and dress up. Well, yes, I want to do that. And as soon as I knew that I wanted to do that, I, because I'm a person, that likes to play everything out to the nth degree. I can already see everything in front of me of what that's going to look like. If I choose that path, my brain wants to give me all of that, the furthest you could go with that. And so even at 6, 7, 8, if you'd just spoken to me about being an actress, I'd have been talking to you about picking up an Oscar in Hollywood, working with Steven Spielberg. I would have been to RADA Drama School. Like I knew exactly what my path was going to be in my head. There was absolutely no doubt. I didn't even say I'm going to be an actress. It was I am an actress. it was, there was, and now it's somebody in the well-being space and understanding our brains more. I'm like, I was just affirming that over and over again. I am an actress. Like there was no doubt. So for me at that young age, the success was, I will be an actress in films, I will be picking up an Oscar. And there was 0 doubt in my mind about that. 

I absolutely love that. And you know what, that passion is really powerful, isn't it? To be able to sit there at that really young age to be able to say, I am an actress. There's no doubt about this. is who I am and this is what I want to be. 

100%. And I joke about, I've said this maybe before, but I remember I was lucky enough to go to America at one point and we went to Planet Hollywood. It was probably paid for on the never, for forever by our parents. But we went there and we went to Planet Hollywood. And I remember thinking, well, Hollywood, there's all these famous people on the wall. And so I was writing on little napkins. I am Holly. I am an actress. And then my home phone number, just like in case Steven Spielberg came in and was like, hold on a minute, hold the phone. This actress here, she's written her details down, no photograph, no CV, nothing. It doesn't matter because she's the one for my film. And I just, because I just fully believed it, like I believed that I could make that happen. And it just so happens that, you know, less than a year after that, I also wrote a letter to a TV company because I believe there was no barrier to entry. There was no barrier in my mind. Why wouldn't I be? Because I'd seen some kids on TV. I'd seen kids in Hollywood films. So why couldn't I do that? And I was lucky enough to have parents that let me believe that. They never, ever questioned that. And they still don't. When I come up with some mad cap idea, they don't question it. And I, because of that belief, wrote a letter, then became an actress. I didn't get it in Hollywood, but I became a working actress and I just let that belief in what could be. Sometimes it may not be, as my dad used to say, it was grown up, we used to say, aim for the, hang on, aim for the moon, you might, no, hang on, aim for the stars, you might just get the moon, aim for the moon, you might just get the stars, one of them. Something like that. You get something good, is what he was saying, basically. Either way, you go for gold, whatever you believe gold to be, And along the way, you might just take a detour, you might just get something else, but it might still be pretty damn good. And maybe you just didn't know it was an option or that it would feel good. So I think that powerful self-belief and that kind of just going for something, it certainly did me good. 

Absolutely. I'm losing my voice. And how did that feel for you when... You're an actress now, officially. It's official, you're led to work. So how did that feel for you? Did you feel that success at that point? Did you think, yay, I've made it, I've got what I wanted? 

I think I did initially. I think that first, I mean, getting, I mean, I was 11 when I started in that TV show. And I think that initial moment of, and I remember like getting the part, getting that call to see, because I had auditioned six or seven times, I think, before that, and I didn't get the part. But I was, again, I wasn't deterred because I was like, then it's doable. I was on set. I met a director, I met a producer, then it's just do it again, then you'll get it next time. And they wrote a part in for me. So they, so I didn't actually have to do the whole auditioning again. They just wrote a part in, like, so six months later, I was back in. And so when I got that initial phone call, that felt like pure success. And that's the kind of, That's the addiction of that industry, because that industry is like dopaminey to the max, because you can go from nothing happening to everything happening, like in a moment. I'm not saying there's no work that happens underneath that, there is, but it's like a very highs and lows kind of industry. For somebody like me, that's very appealing. And so I went from, I got that part, And that initial feeling, that initial dopamine rush was like, this is success. I'm about, everything is about to happen. What then happens, like all successes that we might have, is that then you go into that kind of plateau stage where reality is around that. So the ideal of something is not the reality. Yes, I loved acting. And that for me actually was, that still did very much feel like success. But the reality around that was, I was a normal kid in a working class school in a normal area with friends who had absolutely nothing to their name and suddenly I was a kid on the TV. That has, you know, repercussions to that. was difficult. I'm a kid that's now six months of the year in and out of school and having to catch up. I'm, I've got my younger sister who I absolutely love, who's incredible, suddenly feeling less than because everybody introduces me as the star. That was a heavy weight to carry. I'm suddenly hearing from friends and family where you make more money than my mum and dad. and that made me feel uncomfortable. So the realities of that, there was lots around that success. It still did feel like a success for me, but I think what then for me happened was I underplayed that because I felt uncomfortable. I felt uncomfortable with everybody else's reaction to that, which 11 year old me who had been lucky enough to have parents that went, listen, the world is your oyster, go do whatever you want to do, go and live your life. that was a beautiful thing to have been gifted. Suddenly the world did not respond in that same way. And I think that's what's interesting about it. I mean, I think I still felt, I know, like any success, I was on that TV show for seven years. I guess over time you become slightly jaded and kind of this is just probably how it is. And that really, for me, continued a little bit after that because during the show my character was a singer and then in real life I ended up signing, this makes it sound like it was really quick, there was a bit of work between that, but I ended up signing to Sony as a solo singer. So I went from seven years on a TV show where everyone around me tells me, the acting world is very difficult. You know, people, it's not like realistic. You need to get like a plan B, which I vehemently disagreed with and still do, to be fair. And then I then left that show and signed to one of the biggest record companies in the world. and was continuing down that path. So my brain was like, there's not this, you just do what you want. Like there's not, there's not failure in a way that didn't feel like failure. And then with my singing, which was something that I learned again, it's that, you know, that feeling of I'll be happy when, I get this thing, once I hit that marker, when I hit that success, I did not enjoy that at all. That was, that's exaggeration. There was points within it that was fun. I did not enjoy that experience because I was in a world that just, I did not feel like I could be myself. I was masking to the utmost level. And it was a really weird space. I was on my own all the time. Hotels to, you know, recording studios. I was just on my own. It was just me. It didn't feel joyful. It felt like everybody else was clapping. I mean, even, you know, we talk about those moments of success. I was talking to my younger, my oldest daughter who wants to be an actor and a singer. And I was talking through this kind of, what happened. And I said, I remember, and I would have been maybe 18, 17, 18. And I was sat in this record executive office, a big fancy place in London somewhere. And I can vividly remember it. was this glass room. And I was signing the contract to sign a record deal. My manager was there and some people that I think worked with me, I don't know. Some people from Sony, maybe we were all there and there's champagne being given to me and there's like, I must have been 18 because probably they wouldn't have given me it. As champagne, there's like, you know, there's people celebrating. And even in that moment, I was like, this ain't what we celebrating. I ain't done anything. I've not done anything yet. Like I've proven nothing and it didn't feel like success. And I think maybe because I was getting older and life starts to happen, you become a little bit more jaded. And then when that didn't, so my lots of things happened. But basically on the Saturday, I knew where that my single was going to chart. On the Sunday, it goes out on the Radio One chart show when we still cared about all of that. Monday morning, I get a call saying, it's been nice working with you. Goodbye. Dropped. 

Wow. Okay. Yeah. So we go from champagne to dropped that quickly. 

Yeah, I mean, I mean, there was a year between kind of champagne and dropped in terms of promotion and all that. And I had some great experiences. I did Top of the Pops and MTV and I did some great things, but it didn't result in that path continuing. I could have probably pursued that. I definitely could have pursued it. But there was pivotal points for me. I stop and I go, do I want this? Is this for me? And I realized that my favorite thing about the whole experience of being a singer, I would say like I was a pop star, but like the hard on the pop. Like pop and she's gone. And the pop, like I, my favorite thing was creating the music video when we did that. And I think that was because my favorite thing was acting and I wanted to do that. So for that, at those pivotal moments where other people would have still seen successes or I had to stop and go, is this what I want? Is this what success looks like? Is this what joy feels like? And I had to be really honest with myself that yes, it ticked lots of things, but I didn't enjoy it and I wanted to go back to acting. And so I think those moments of kind of sitting with yourself are really important in that in that journey to success. 

Yeah, absolutely. And from listening to your talk there, it sounds like you were just sort of moved from acting to singing, not because you sat there and said, actually, do you know what I'd love to do? I'd love to be a singer. You know, I'd love to be a singer. That's my next career move. It just sort of happened naturally, which happens in lots of different industries, doesn't it? Not just obviously that industry. 

I think it does. And I think sometimes, you're not, and there's nothing wrong with this. An opportunity comes up and you think, that could be cool. Like, let's explore that. And again, I was very much taught, you know, just, you try things and see where it goes. And that really happened because my character was a singer. And then I was on the TV show, the Saturday show, I don't know if you remember it with Danny Bear, and like a Saturday morning show. And we were out for, they used to take you out for a meal beforehand. And so there was the people on the show and there was the Blazing Squad were there. And if anyone remembers them, there's loads of them. And there was Blazing Squad and there was a girl who was on like Pop Idol or one of the ones, those kind of early ones. And her management, I ended up sitting next to her, one of her managers, and chatting with her. And I must have, being me, I was probably telling her my life story. And I was saying, I like my character's a singer and in the show and whatnot. And she made a call to somebody who she was working with and said, watch this girl on the show. I think she's interesting. So he watched me and then they made contact with Biker Grove and said, can we create some meetings? And it kind of went from there. So it was one of those where it was like, let's see where it goes. I never, ever wanted to be a singer. I knew I could sing. That wasn't my thing. It felt quite vulnerable, to be honest, because I wanted to be an actress and being an actress was pretending to be somebody else and being a singer was being me or a version of me. But I very quickly learned that it was a version of me that was very curated and that felt even weirder because it was supposed to be me, but I had a different name. I was called Summer Matthews and I was being kind of pushed into a certain style and it felt very weird and it felt like masking in a different way. It wasn't just acting, it was pure masking. I'm supposed to be me. So it was just a, yeah, you get shoved down a route, don't you, sometimes? And there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. You learn, I learned loads and I often say that first failure, that very public failure of it, my single hit 32 in the charts and hilariously just yesterday, some, I don't know, some pop Instagram and Facebook channel who shares like all things we've forgotten about, shared my music video and stuff and said it was, and this is hideous, Emma, 22 years ago yesterday that it was... 

That really makes you think, doesn't it? You don't know. It was yesterday. 

I mean, it doesn't, I've got to be honest, it doesn't feel like yesterday, but it definitely, 22 years feels such a long time. And then my sister laughed because she posted it and she said, oh yeah, 22 years ago, so we had to go to HMV and buy Holly's singles in singles. So to try, because you had to buy it one at a time. 

A physical single, didn't you? Yeah. 

To make it move up the charts, you couldn't buy in bulk, because that's what record companies used to do to boom things up their charts. So you had to buy it, singles. singly. So they had to go to different record shops and buy my single singly to try and help me out. 

But they were the days, weren't they? were the days when you used to go and buy a physical record? 

Oh, funny. I mean, commitment or what? But it was those perfect moments, I think, where you just, you assess and you go, like, what does this look like? And I think so much of when we think about what we're going to feel when we get to a point, is not the reality. And that's where a lot of us get stuck, that we hit something and we go, this is not what I thought it was going to be. This is not what it was advertised as. You know, whether it's in business, whether it's in the acting world, whatever it is in romantic relationships, we might believe it's going to be a certain way because we've concocted usually an absolutely made-up story of what the reality is. And I think that's hard for us to stomach because often we're working on a goal, aren't we? And we think, well, when I get there, That's when it's all going to kick into place. That's when it's going to be easier. That's when I'm going to be happy. And then we get there and we're like, oh, this opened up new jobs. This opened up new things I have to do. This opened up new challenges. And I think as we get older and life just humbles us with all of the stuff it chucks in our path, it makes us realise there are definitely different markers to success than we maybe thought there was. 

Absolutely. There's a lot of invisible trade-offs, isn't there, sometimes for the things that we assume is going to make us successful, the next milestone, the next certificate, the next Oscar, whatever that is, whatever that looks like, we don't think about, and I suppose it's because we don't talk about it very often, do we? don't talk about the journey, the things that we've had to trade off, whether that's relationships, health, peace, actual time to yourself, to be yourself. There's so many potential trade-offs to get you to this really shiny thing. And that's not saying people shouldn't chase them, absolutely not, but chase them perhaps with open eyes, what is it you're really prepared to give up for that thing? And is that actually what you want? Or is it some of the other stuff that sits around it? 

Oh, March, it's such an important point. The invisible, I think that's a great way of putting it, invisible trade-offs we don't necessarily talk about, which I'm sure you'll be talking about on here. But I think that's what's what are you willing to miss out on? And also, another point you kind of touched upon there, and I talk about this with a lot of my clients now, is there's not one route to that feeling. So I often talk about the ingredients that you need to feel happy, right? Now, the ingredients, if we think about life as a big stew or a big pie, whatever you want to call it, right? And often what's happening is we're putting in what we think we want. Maybe somebody else's expectations are getting chucked in there as well. And then life feels like a bit of a hot mess and it doesn't feel very good. When we're consciously thinking about it and then we're thinking, what are the ingredients that actually make me happy? So if I think about my own life, I know that one of my biggest drivers, my absolute biggest drivers is freedom. I don't want to be told what to do. I don't want, it's autonomy, right? I don't tell me what to do, what to wear, where to be. The minute I feel like that's being pulled on, I just know I'm out, not interested, completely switch off. And for me, there also needs to be novelty. So we took a novelty in there. needs to be different. There needs to be creativity. If I can't be creative, I will whizen away on the floor. I need some way of being creative. Now, those three things, just as an example, in the acting world, there's a relative amount of freedom. I get to choose the things I do and where I go to an extent. There's some things around that, you know, what I wear. I have to wear a costume. if I'm thinking about creativity in abundance, if I'm creating about novelty, tons of it, right? There's loads of novelty there. So great, I can get those there, but it's literally not the only place I can get it because when I work, my work now in self-development and all of that, there's creativity, there's freedom because I get to choose what I do. There's a, you know, that adventure piece, there's novelty, there's difference. So it's not one route, but we have an idea of something we want, right? I want to be an author, I want to be an actor, I want to be a footballer, I want to be a business owner, whatever it is. And we think there's one route to that. But there's literally, there's rarely ever one route to it to get that feeling. So it's more about What underneath it is the ingredients that I want? Because sometimes we think, we get fed this all the time. You and I have spoken about this kind of, six figure ink, six, seven figure income, all of the kind of the markers of, online business success that somebody decided one day. And I'm not saying that that's not an aspiration to have if that feels really good to you, but why do you want it? Because I guarantee for most people, and I've worked with lots of clients who've come to me saying big, big numbers, and I want this, and I need to have this, and then I will be happy. When we've come down to it, and we've looked at the real key ingredients, they've already got it. They've already got the feelings that they are craving over here. They've already got it now. But it's often, and this is really difficult for us as humans to stomach, but often it's it's ego-driven or it's, and I don't mean that in a negative, negative, horrible way to us when we are all ego-driven, we're all, you know, we want applause in some description. Absolutely, yeah. We're human beings. We've been taught that that's like how we get that feeling of like, I'm a good person, I'm worth something. So we chase that. But actually, both you and I have experienced big things in our life that are painful and difficult. And when you go through a big loss, big change in your life that changes everything, when that happens, you really assess what matters. And I think a lot of that kind of ego-driven behavior gets ripped away because you don't care. I don't care to impress anybody. You don't care to impress anybody. I don't need to. Literally the worst things that happen in your life when they happen. You've become a little bit untouchable. It's kind of nice. 

Yeah, it is, isn't it? There's got to be something positive out of the back of something like that, hasn't there? That's, you know, that's the reality of it. But I think there's so much noise out there, isn't there? And I think that's what gets people pulled into what it is they should be doing. You know, my favourite phrase of all time, I say all the time, I must drive people bonkers, is just because you can, it doesn't mean you should. You know, it's It's so tempting, isn't it? You see this shiny thing, you see other people doing these amazing things and you think, I want a bit of that. But the why, what you were just talking about, that why that sits underneath it is actually the really important thing. Because when people do strip that back, it rarely is that they want. They just want some of the emotions, some of the feelings, some of the little bits that sit and lead there. Like you say, it's, you know, creativity is really important to you. can get that in acting. You can get that in what you do now. and I suppose the question is, what gives you more pleasure right now? 

Yeah, and I think for me, I think really the, there's always going to be a money piece when it comes to freedom. because there is bills to pay. There's, we've got to keep the lights on and we want to do things. We need money for freedom. So I am not in a space of denial where I want to sit in a heart. I don't want that. I want home comfort. I'm not personally driven by I guess brands and things like the designer stuff that doesn't drive me at all. But what does drive me is being able to unlock things for my kids, being able to give them opportunities, be able to take them places, give them a different view of a different part of the world. That drives me. So I don't think money is not in play at all. But I think There is a, we look at, and it's a heavy conversation, a big conversation now, we've got billionaires in the world. There is no need for that. There is no ethical billionaire. I stand that and 10 toes down. There is no ethical billionaires. If you've got that much money, you don't need it. And there is much good you can do with that. And actually a lot of, you know, my driver is also, if I make lots of money, then I can also do a lot of good with that money as well. And a big part of my brand pillars as such and what it sort of drives me is like, I never leave a man behind. Like I want to help other people. Like I want to give other people that leg up. That's a huge part of it because I know what it's like to not have that. I know what it's like to have that struggle. I understand what it is like to feel like maybe it's never going to be my time. Maybe no one's ever going to believe in me. If I can give somebody else that let go, that matters to me. So I think that, you know, for me, I understand that money is part of that conversation, but it's always checking in with what brings you joy. And for me right now, that freedom piece is like really heavy because I'm not here to, which feels really odd saying this as an actor, and I still do acting sometimes. I'm not here for the applause. The applause, I've had it. I've had the applause, I've had people clap. I've had my whole life has been on a platform from the age of 11 years old. I've never not had people watching what I do. I've always had applause. And it means nothing if you're not applauding yourself and you don't enjoy your day-to-day life. It means nothing. I promise those that are shoulding themselves, like you said, and I should be doing this, you'll get there and it will be the same. It's disappointing that that's the case. You think, if I just do this one thing, you know, when I wrote my first book, when I wrote my second book, when I just get there, when I just hit that, okay, so I get #1. Number one in all of Amazon in every single category, it's a best-selling book. The next day, I'm still cleaning the kids' clothes. I'm still doing the washing. I still have the same jobs that I had to do before. I still feel the same about myself. So, and then that wasn't in a negative way. I still, I'm just the same person on the other side of that win. That's not to say we don't celebrate those wins, but it's to understand that bigger picture, like what What does your day-to-day life look like? And I think for me, the same things apply. Yes, I need to have some creativity. I need to feel like I've got that autonomy. I want to bring, I like to bring joy into my life and color. I like to feel like I can be myself. I need rest. You know, again, also as I've got older, and I would never have, younger me was, 100 miles an hour. I'm still 100 miles an hour, but I understand that I need a version of, my version of rest is probably being creative, that feels like rest to me. And that is, I think, giving myself breathing space more and really protecting what feels like mine. I, you know, protecting my space, protecting, like, radical protection of that. Like, I don't want to let in people that I think are knobs. You don't get in my space. I'm not going to accept in my world anybody that's bringing a level of negativity. It doesn't, like, I just don't have space for that. Because, and again, it goes, you know, certainly I think when my husband died, I think that marker made me go, everything here close to me, my children, my home, my autonomy, my space, who I am needs to be protected over everything else. Nothing's getting in that I don't want it to be in. And there had to be heavy boundaries. And so it can feel that trade off. If I'm doing something and that's going to open the door to more work or that's going to open the door to having to be with different people, I need to be really careful what that trade off is because I'm protecting this space like nothing else. So I'm much more ruthless with that now. I think, you know, younger me, as we often know, I'm much more in that people pleasing space and just like accepting and tolerating a lot. Whereas I'm not in that space now. I'm, you know, I'm 41. I have not got time for nonsense. I've not got time for people that are playing silly, childish games in the world of business. I've not got time for your lies. I've not got time for people who are not being kind to other people. Put it all in the bin. I'm not interested. I'm not the one. And I'm also not the one to fit to sit quiet about that either. So that's grown, like my peace matters a lot more than it ever did. 

Exactly. And I think that's important, isn't it, to know what that actually means. So let's close this down. At the very beginning, I asked you what younger you would define success as. So what would 41 year old Holly define success as now for you moving forward? 

So for me, I would say freedom, peace and impact. So it matters, impact matters more than it did when I was younger and impact to me being that I can take other people with me. And so that I remember sitting with a marketing team once who a friend of mine's business and they said to me, so what, like, what does, what does success look like? What does happiness look like? And I was explaining, for me, like happiness, you know, all the things I've said, But I was kind of stuck for a bit and I said it's not enough for me to just be happy and successful. That's not enough for me. It has to be impact to help other people. I have to help other people do that. Otherwise I don't get to be happy fully. Like I don't feel good about that. if I'm stomping on other people to get to my success, that doesn't feel good to me. There needs to be integrity and not just the word integrity, the lived integrity where I'm taking people with me. So I think this age for me, it's, I guess some people would call that kind of that legacy piece of going, you know, I want to do good in this world. I get the impact matters more. But peace in my own world. I don't, I'm very, very protective of my space and my peace. the freedom to do what I want to do and be all the fun and creative stuff I enjoy. But I think also as I've got older, it's wanting to do a little bit of good and to have that impact as well to help others. 

Yeah. And I think that's the link to the money piece, isn't it? when I talk about it, and I know when you've spoken about this, being successful in a way beyond money doesn't mean not having money. It's just understanding what that money gives you and enables you to do, isn't it? And I absolutely love that you're at that point where that is exactly what it's about for you. Yes, you need to earn the money because you've got all these things and all this impact that you need to create and money makes that happen, doesn't it? That's the absolute reality of it. Holly, I have loved our conversation. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm going to share all of Holly's links and everything in the show notes. So do go and give her a follow. And thank you for listening. Thank you guys.